0:05 [Music] They've stood at the front lines of law, leadership, and public service. From the courtroom to the classroom, attorney Karin Jimeo brings sharp legal insight, academic excellence, and a voice that has guided national conversations. Attorney Mike Toledo, a seasoned public affairs strategist and legal mind with years in media, corporate leadership, and government reform. Together, they bring law to life with experience,
0:51 integrity, and the courage to ask hard questions. Two minds shaped by the law. Two voices trusted in and out of the courtroom. This is Augado. Good evening. Welcome to Abugado, where we examine the questions that test both our laws and our values. I'm attorney Mike Toledo. >> And I'm attorney Karen Himeo. Tonight, we open with an issue that challenges how we define truth, fairness, and family. Let's take a closer look [Music] in inheritance. disputes. The law gives
1:37 birth records a special weight. A birth certificate is a public document presumed true unless overturned by strong evidence. But what if other relatives question that truth? Should the courts allow DNA testing to settle doubts, even if it means challenging what official records already say? Some argue DNA is the ultimate tool for finding the truth and fairness in inheritance demands that no one be disinherited because of an inaccurate record. Others warn that opening the door to DNA tests risks destabilizing families, undermining children's rights, and weakening trust in our civil
2:23 registry system. This is not just a question of science versus law. It is a question of justice versus certainty. Should courts allow DNA testing in inheritance disputes despite the presumption of truth in birth records? Joining us tonight is attorney Alyakbar Jumrani, a litigator and law professor who has taught and practice extensively in procedural and family law. He has worked with the court of appeals and the government service system and has been teaching in law schools and barreview centers since 2005. He
3:09 graduated cumlaude from Siliman University College of Law and hails from Sambanga City. Good evening attorney Al and welcome to Abugado. >> Thank you very much. Good evening at Michael and Attorney Karen and uh it's an honor to be here at Abugado. >> All the pleasure is all ours. Now let's begin with the basics. >> How strong is the presumption of truth in birth certificates? >> That's a good question Mike. uh birth certificates are actually public records and uh they enjoy the presumption of regularity and authenticity and this is not something that we just made up but uh this is according to article 410 of the civil code and act 3753 that's why people can have faith in these uh public
3:54 documents. So when I show my birth certificate and it says my mother is uh well shout out to my mom Fatima Jumarani and my dad is Marjuk Jumani. So the world can rely on that statement in my birth certificate. >> Okay. And I think part of you know this is such a relevant discussion because >> you know one relevant because if you are an illegitimate child but you are recognized by your biological father then you do have inheritance rights as with regards to your dad. Right? legitimate child. But still you enjoy that presumption entitled >> but right now also relevant because
4:40 babies right so let's say succession and you have a sameex couple [Music] would have the right to inherit if so they can ask for let's a paternity test and say therefore let's say birth certificate or biologically then the birth certificate would prevail. >> Correct. Correct. Uh let me just state that uh indeed while uh a birth certificate is uh a public document and
5:28 the public can have faith on a document let's remember that it only gives a prima evidence of the truth of of of the truth of the fact stated thereinable you sayable it's rebutable is true at first glance >> mm M >> so that's why if there are uh circumstances or evidence to rebut okay the facts stated therein then if these facts are established then that birth certificate can be disregarded and uh may be even cancelled so the public need not rely on that and let's uh remind ourselves now in the past year question records civil registry because
6:16 of you know uh the Alice case, you know, Chinese getting uh birth certificates in the provinces and all that. So, these instances actually expose the vulnerability of our of our civil ser civil registry records. >> Well, based on science, should courts ever allow DNA tests to overturn what is in the birth certificate? That's a good question because uh with uh the advances in DNA technology, DNA technology has already uh been used to both prove and disprove paternity affiliation. >> You know, uh it's almost 99.9% accurate. DNA testing has been used for uh well not just in paternity and
7:02 affiliation cases but also even in criminal cases like for example if there is a need to identify the uh the uh the remains of let's say a victim of a a serious crime or perhaps uh to uh determine the presence of of the accused uh in the crime scene DNA testing can be relied upon but most importantly in paternity affiliation and uh it has been used as evidence in cases like support >> like when a mother tries to uh demand support for an illegitimate child the father can demand a DNA testing to disprove that that is his son and similarly in inheritance cases like what you said let's say you have collateral relatives a person dies the collateral
7:48 relatives these are the brothers the cousins and even the ne the the the children of these brothers and cousins expected that they will be the ones to inherit and then suddenly someone uh you know Yeah. appears and says or something like that. >> Exactly. But it really happens in real life. Exactly. And so DNA testing can also be requested to determine the paternity affiliation but it's not that easy. So attorney what are what standard of proof should courts require before actually ordering uh DNA testings in for example in inheritance cases? >> Yes. Okay. Now DNA testing is uh as it is is already a uh an evidence or proof
8:37 of a fact. So it may prove a fact or it may disprove a fact. However, we must uh remember that DNA testing or the request for DNA testing is not easily availed or is not easily issued because as ruled by the Supreme Court, for example, in the case of Lucas versus Lucas, the Supreme Court held that a party seeking to avail DNA testing must first present Primmaafachi evidence or establish good cause for the holding or requesting of the test. So for example, if it's paternity affiliation, you don't just say I feel I want to request for a DNA testing. No, you have to establish to the court relationship.
9:24 Okay, that we had a relationship, romantic and intimate relationship. So this child could be mine. Or or similarly, let's say a child would like to establish his or her paternity with uh with a certain man. When my uh mom was uh let's say this nine months ago or 10 months ago, my mom had a relationship with this guy. >> So I'd like to request for DNA testing to establish that paternity. >> And once that is requested from the court, you same question. request court and make grounds >> and the court orders it mandatory you can be compact violation of your privacy rights or all
10:09 right let's explain that because uh that has been a common question DNA testing well number one we have to give it to the court that the court will be the first uh person or the first entity to protect your rights so the court will first decide whether the request is justif ified. So if you have grounds to oppose it like that's impossible. I had no uh personal relation. I have I haven't known the mother of this child. Then uh the court will entertain your your your grounds. >> So grounds more in a sense you could say it's circumstantial. >> Yes. It's circumstantial. So you can refuse it. And so uh the court may deny the request. But if the
10:55 court grants the request, it's because there was a basis for the request. And if this request is granted, the order is final and exeuable. You can be compelled. If you don't comply, you can be cited in contempt. >> Final and executo at the level of the regional trial court. But then yes, grave abuse of discretion courtable. Yes. Because again you know okay let me just share rules other a bit of worried I'm just kidding. Okay to finally I found it. But take note
11:42 that under section five of the rule on DNA evidence, the grant of DNA testing application shall not be construed as an admission into evidence of any component of the DNA evidence that may be obtained as a result thereof. So we need to say okay DNA evidence from you. But it's not an admission automat. It doesn't mean that you have to it has to be proven. >> Yes, it has to be proven. Interesting. But you said 99.9% accuracy on DNA test. So for example, I'm someone who wants to establish that a person is my dad. Compel through a court order and it comes out as positive >> positive, >> but I can't use it as evidence to establish that this person is really my father.
12:27 >> It's not automatic. >> So you still have to establish the relevance of the DNA testing to the issue at hand. M >> so remember there are guidelines and these guidelines are also found in the rules on evidence DNA evidence under section 4. Okay. And particularly the guidelines is the uh guideline number one which says a biological sample exists that is relevant to the case. >> So if it's not relevant to the case even if there is a match it will not be considered. Okay. Number two and which is number four in the guidelines the testing has the scientific potential to produce new information >> and uh this new information is relevant to the proper resolution of the case. >> Okay. >> So uh you could be uh a positive match
13:15 but if it does not produce any relevant or new information it could be disregarded >> depending on what's filed in court. Right. So but eventually if you file like a claim and there was there's an existing estate proceeding. Yes. Then I can present that as evidence in the SD. >> Yes. Because it is very relevant especially to establish uh successional. Yes. Correct. Succession. Correct. And also adoptions. Yes. And and then we all know man that the uh the technology no the science through the years have really improved. It's really so accurate now. in fact that some people who were found guilty in the past when there was no DNA testing then were eventually acquitted because ofiction
14:00 postiction but just to make a quick comment I think one of the reasons partners uh they made it nonappealable is because if if you delay this if you know as lawyers we have ways of prolonging a case we can file appeal petitions motions etc all the way up to the Supreme Court and sometimes in Supreme Court it could stay there for years. So what is at stake is not only the affiliation of the of the child or of the person but also the inheritance rights and the property rights. So implications. So it will be hold held in obeyance
14:45 closing. Would that be a correct? Yes. That's correct. Especially since these are supposed to be matters that must be resolved in an expeditious manner particularly inheritance and I think uh the case uh which is the reason why we're discussing this involves the inheritance or the uh estate which composed of properties bank accounts and uh other intangible properties and yet distribute property partner not for anything tongue and cheek. There's not too much like
15:33 there's never an issue and inheritance. But you know this is also relevant for crimes like for example uh an allegation of rape and then we never had any intercourse and then later positive accuse. Right. Yes, you can either reopen the case in light of new evidence or you can present it there. >> Remember, because DNA is very microscopic, you know, uh it can be uh taken from uh hair follicles or even like uh remains of fluid remains. Usually they swab you. >> Yes, exactly. >> Well, is circumstantial evidence like
16:19 you know unusual family circumstances enough or must there always be a direct evidence of fraud or falsification? For example, birth certificate is a child that was the result of uh of surrogacy. So let's say donor or dad says from abroad and then something happened to that dad samesex marriage let's say the the one who passed away would there unusual circumstances the fact that it's a samesex couple and then you anak is from a surrogacy be sufficient for the court to say that
17:06 Yes, there should be DNA testing and that would that override what is in the birth certificate meaning okay well well first uh topic surrogacy is very complex we don't have a law on surrogacy so this this this surrogacy must have been made abroad and if it is valid there then the birth certificate of that child should be considered valid here in the Philippines However, uh if there are uh evidence showing that this child was not the product of the uh sperm of the uh of the supposed father is the surrogate
17:57 that allegation can be proved through DNA testing. So you have to first establish the circumstantial evidence and under our family code we have three uh recognized circumstantial evidence to negate or to deny blood relationship and to see the relationship of the father and the child. Number one physical impossibility of sexual intercourse. So physic physical impossibility of the father and the surrogate mother to have sexual intercourse. Uh second um sterility or medical condition preventing the husband to impregnate another person and also other evidence showing that it was not possible that this child is the child of this father. So with that with this circumstantial
18:44 evidence being established then you can request for a DNA testing and the DNA testing will then supplement the circumstantial evidence. That's that's actually very weird here because the Supreme Court has held you have to first convince us by this circumstantial evidence before we can grant you the DNA testing. It's not the other way around. I will request for a DNA testing and I will prove to you that it was impossible for this child to be his or to be mine. First, I have to establish and I will prove it to you through DNA testing. Interesting. Soap will also have a hard time requesting for a DNA test. Okay. Case Aino versus Aino which is a
19:32 2021 case. The Supreme Court said exclusively DNA from the father. Yes. So for example, they are able to show that this child is not the child of our kuya. Okay. If the court agrees with the circumstial evidence and allows the DNA testing samples interesting and then from there that will override let's say they can override decision
20:17 to treat the child and that child can And remember we have what we call simulation of birth certificates and DNA testing can establish simulation and if that birth certificate is established to be simulated then that birth certificate cannot be relied upon. Wow. Later on, let's say I gave up my baby birth certificate, meaning parents and then years later and then I can prove by DNA testing that's really my child and they can cancel the birth certificate.
21:02 >> Correct. Yes. You cancellation of birth certificate, you still have to go to a proceeding. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. We have to uh emphasize that while we are entertaining and we can in fact entertain on these possible scenarios that birth certificates are false. Remember that uh the civil code I think it's under uh article 412 of uh the civil code says that no birth certific no record in the civil registry can be cancelled or corrected without judicial order. So that's why I have a birth certificate without mentioning the name. There was recently a Chinese businessman
21:49 a prominent Chinese businessman. Correct. late application for birth certificate similar to Alis question but yeah well that's another story altogether maybe another legal issue but the fact of the matter is passport no and it was Filipino but just to go back a bit on the birth certificate so you know sense partner birth certificate land title exactly we should take it face value we were taught in law school that uh a buyer in good faith can rely on the four corners of the TCT or the original uh certificate of title. Uh but of course it can be eventually impuned if there is a fraud or whatever. So in a
22:34 way exactly title record ownership of property land especially but remember it's merely evidence of ownership. If that ownership does not exist or if the person named in the registered uh or the registered owner in the title is not really the owner then he cannot be protected by the torist title. Similarly the birth certificate the birth certificate is only evidence or only a uh a statement of the facts stated therein and it enjoys the perception of regularity. However, if those facts are false, then you cannot be protected by that certificate, by that birth certificate. But then again, just like in Torrance
23:20 titles, it will require uh you know, a long process, a court process in order to disregard the effects of a birth certificate. Mhm. Mhm. >> Now, uh partner, maybe we should also ask you judges uh do they have broad discretion to permit or deny DNA test and for example estate cases uh or should clear uh statutory guidelines uh be set? >> Mhm. >> Okay. I'll first answer the question on discretion. Yes. >> Okay. Judges in indeed exercise uh discretion in granting the request. However, this discretion is also guided by the guidelines under the rules of DNA evidence. So, as I have mentioned
24:07 earlier, there are guidelines uh foremost of which are number one relevancy or uh materiality of the request and also there should be new information that can be established and this new information can affect the resolution of the case. If we can discuss the case of the direct gueras. Uh the request was grounded on sexual orientation that allegedly direct Gwend Ramas could not have sired these children because he was a homosexual. And you know anyone can tell you that that's a very weak justification. And so the regional trial court uh denied the motion and and then uh the siblings went
24:53 to the court of appeals assailing the decision which denied the request. And what do you expect? Of course, the court of appeals affirmed the the original trial court saying that the justification was wrong. You cannot request for a DNA test on the simple ground that a homosexual could not have sired a child. >> Interesting. So right now based on that court ruling, the prevailing doctrine is that homosexuality by itself is not circumstantial evidence that would justify mandating a DNA test. >> That's right. Because I have, as I have mentioned earlier, the circumstantial evidence here must relate to the impossibility of siring or fathering the child such as physical impossibility. More like
25:44 that does not negate that is not uh equivalent to impossibility. So they had to uh maybe change uh change strategy and and give another reason to request for >> erectile dysfunction. Yeah. So you rely on medical records >> just as a joke your honor defendant accused possible my client would commit rape because he has a dead weapon not dead. No no I committed the rape. Okay. But based on the fact that there's discretion on Sorry, is there something you wanted to add?
26:30 >> I am uh actually excited for the next question because you're talking about considering discretion judges based on past rulings. Has the court been consistent or do you see some kind of uh back and forth sometimes? Okay. like court rulings on recently on whether number two is the winner in second place rule. Okay. loser doctrine versus weight because you still have individuals exercising discretion which is why guidelines or should we leave it up to discretion
27:19 testing again as I said paternity affiliation uh that has been uh used or accepted to establish paternity affiliation So if you want to establish paternity affiliation, DNA testing will be granted by showing that the child has been treated as a natural child since childhood for several years confirmity request DNA test because my birth certificate. So that helps the birth certificate helps. So inconsistency is what are you
28:05 requesting? What are you trying to prove? Now uh of course inconsistency remedy mo because for example if you file a remedy for um say uh recovery of ownership of property like saying that uh this property was transmitted to them on the ground that they were alleged children but they were not. So real heirs. So we are filing this case to recover that property. request for DNA testing just to prove that they are not the owners because the Supreme Court has ruled that you have to file a direct action against the
28:50 affiliation of the child rather than raising it as an issue in a separate case. So Supreme Court then you file an action to impugn legitimacy or affiliation under article 170 and 171 of the family code. Ah soal concernifically the father you can't say that's not my childitution mommy
29:42 as far as concerned you're the mother. >> Yes, you are the mother. Interested party to question theation. So no one can raise that question. >> Interesting. So but I guess in the end if this is an estate proceeding where the siblings of a father who passed away >> are questioning the affiliation oration deceased they cannot unsolicited advice. Okay. uh they had to recalibrate the the question or the the issue. they were
30:28 trying to say, okay, what they should say or what they should argue is that uh there is evidence showing that this child was not born, someone else was parents to show that this child was never his and that this uh birth certificate is a simulated birth certificate >> and if they can show that okay birth certificate [Music] affiliation again uh that that uh the remedy is article 170 to 171 but
31:14 remember the father is already dead so he's the only one who can initiate that action so birth certificate involved in a recent in a case that's still pending in court right now. Correct. Free legal advice. >> Free legal advice. Abugado can charge them later. I of course attorney. What happens if for example we did touch on it earlier but what if the the heirs as I mentioned they can be compelled but what happens for example if they refuse? Is there a does this somehow create a presumption against them? Good question. And then submit yourself to DNA testing and that solves the problem. All right.
32:00 Okay. >> And that can be used that presumption against you >> for the children. Okay. If they refuse to submit to DNA testing and assuming the court will will will agree, okay, you will not be compelled to undergo DNA testing because they already have the birth certificate. Okay. But uh this will only mean that uh the uh other side or the other parties will have to look for other evidence and other basis for showing that this birth certificate is simulated. >> Yeah. Because uh well unfortunately we cannot apply here principle our doctrine in the rule of evidence that evidence if suppressed is presumed to be uh
32:46 adversarial >> or that uh it is a uh >> uh it is an evidence against the interest of the person the result would not be adverse in their favor which is the birth certificate. So they have to calibrate and look for other reasons why the DNA testing can be justified. >> Yeah. >> Well, if the court for example makes it easier or if the statutory guidelines make it easier to ask for DNA tests, do you think this will open the floodgates >> to challenging birth records which enjoy the presumption of regularity? Yeah, I don't think that uh if courts will be
33:35 more lenient and will just uh will easily grant these requests that there will be uh a surge of uh cases challenging birth certificates. I don't think so because as I have said earlier there has to be uh the the sequence of events should be first there's a reason to question the birth certificate followed by DNA testing. Mhm. >> So uh remember birth certificates are uh as a rule the result of reports from mothers, from relatives, from fathers. It's a very familial thing. So uh people will still rely on birth certificates. uh in fact
34:22 say uh children are born usually in hospitals and hospitals far follow very strict guidelines in reporting these children or the births of these children to the civil registry. So possible uh fictitious birth certificates. So I don't think people will you know start questioning their birth certificates but at least option because indeed we still have this grave concern of birth certificates being simulated. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Now attorney al if if example adoption was only informal and uh not judicially decreed. No. >> Yes. >> What is the standing of children listed in these uh birth certificates? Well, if
35:08 uh number one, if they are only informally adopted, meaning to say not through a judicial decree. Yes. Uh informally adoption law. >> Correct. Adoption law. If they are just informally adopted, maybe they are just foster kids. They don't have rights of inheritance >> because the right to inherit is reserved to blood relatives and those that are judicially or officially adopted because now adoption is already administrative. Yes. So there must be either blood relationship or uh the relationship is by law through adoption. But again knowing that
35:56 inherit by blood and by adoption adoption by blood certificate. So you children who have uh these simulated birth certificates will have better rights over other relatives because remember under the law of succession the children or the descendants exclude the ascendants and the collateral. So simulated birth certificate parents or the whoever the parents are not passed away inherit unless someone is able to prove simulated birth. >> Okay. Well, super interesting partner and very relevant to so many scenarios here in the Philippines. But we'll have
36:43 to pause for a quick break. Our discussion on DNA testing and inheritance disputes with attorney Aliakbar Jumrani continues. This is Abugara. [Music] Welcome back and thanks for joining us. This is Abugado. Before the break, we explore the tension between the presumption of truth in birth records and calls for DNA testing in inheritance disputes. >> Now, attorney Al, we'd like to hear your closing thoughts on two key points. >> Okay. >> At the end of the day, how do we balance
37:29 the anger of relatives or the demand for fairness with safeguards of the constitution so that accountability does not come at the cost or expense of rights? I guess simulation of birth and disprove. Then someone who is not a blood relative will enjoy better rights than you ascendants meaning either. >> All right. So on that uh of course we have to remember that the law reserves uh the estate for certain persons and these persons are as I've mentioned earlier
38:14 >> uh they are the children or or or descendants and then you have ascendants collateral relatives and of course the spouse okay if uh there's a spouse now the law reserves uh to these persons uh the estate because the law presumes that these are the people that the deceased wanted to leave his properties too. >> We need to say wish. Now uh so even a a a collateral relative could say that I am entitled because the law says we expect that we are entitled to a share. So because of this we have to safeguard their rights. Okay. And I
39:00 think uh the uh height of injustice is for people who do not deserve to receive will deprive those who deserve to receive. And so we have to balance uh the law protecting uh these rights and also the law protecting or preserving these documents and by reason of these documents they are able to demand these rights if you know what I mean children. Okay. But remember we are trading on very very delicate grounds here because we also have to remember that children cannot be exposed to this you know very you know uh horrible and very traumatic experience of their identity and of their uh uh uh um status being questioned. That's a very good point if
39:46 they really grew up believing that these are their parents and birth because the parents also want their child to experience that feeling. Correct. I mean what happens to them? uh they they they they would now be par stateless person so to speak more identity >> identityless persons. Okay. But since you mentioned uh simulation of birth and we have been discussing simulated births. Remember last 2019 uh Congress passed Republic Act 1122 which uh rectifies simulated births uh and uh uh and facilitate the adoption of
40:33 these children. Mhm. >> So if a birth certificate is simulated and the reason for simulation is to give these children a better life or a better future, uh all it takes is to admit to that simulation immune from criminal liability and then these children will now be adopted. So simulated birth certificate will be cancelled and an adoption certificate will be issued. your birth certificate because simulated yan what can further prevent and this is something they should should also consider what can further prevent their
41:20 remedy is that when these children apply for the benefits of republic act 111222 they will say okay we admit okay we will not deny that our birth certificate was simulate or were simulating but uh we you can we can all agree that our our father adopted us at at a young age to give us a better future. So argument automatic under the law their birth certificate will be canled adopted and so therefore all the right of an adopted will which means they can inherit then they can still inherit they have to consider strategy. Either way, if they challenge the birth certificate as being simulated
42:06 and and they will avail of Republic Act 1122, adopted child and then under the law 10 years benefit from the time birth or from the time from 2019. Okay. Correct. Close your window. So you are watching both of you both sides for the existing case. I'm glad to hear about that law that the first time I heard about correct we admit our birth certificate was simulated.
42:52 Can you make that admission? Let's say correct. Exactly. DNA test. Okay. They can take that path. >> Yes. They can take that. Okay. Fine. And then we avail of the benefits of >> and then we will avail. Okay. So advantages. I guess that RA took into consideration siguru the realities >> or the intention of the parent if you really take care of someone for you to go to that extent was it Oliver Wender homes of cells the life of the law has not been logic but experience
43:52 I'm glad partner and I'm glad to to be educated tonight on this particular law so much. Yeah. Yeah. I was not aware of that. I have one last question and this is topic big issue. Senator Grace po when she ran for the fact that she was a founding so naturalborn citizenship that citizen that was a question about her qualification to become president >> let's say in adopt >> that does that give the child the founding the benefit of being considered a naturalb born Filipino citizen if you simulate birth certificate or consider are both citizens
44:45 birth certificate. So as naturalb born circumstantial not just benefit of the citizenship of the parents that adopted or simulated the >> certificate. Yes. Correct. Now founding talaga as uh stated in that decision of the supreme court and also under the founding act which is sponsored by senator grace po that means your parentage cannot be established at all. You are now presumed naturalb born if very interesting found is now available for adoption. So
45:32 then it can already be adopted. So proof of abandonment shorter process. How can you prove that this child was abandoned somewhere? But this is a found automatic available for adoption and naturalb born. >> Okay. Interesting. Thank you so much attorney Aliakbar Jumani. Thank you for joining us tonight and sharing your expertise on this very complex and sensitive issue. >> You know partner uh tonight's discussion reminds us that the law is not only about birth certificates and DNA evidence but also about fairness.
46:22 dignity and of course the stability of families. >> And as the debate on DNA testing and inheritance disputes continues, we must remain vigilant protecting children's rights while preserving the certainty and integrity of our public records. >> This is good night. [Music] Heat. [Music] Heat.
