0:02 [music] Hello and a very warm welcome viewers. You're watching Committee Report with your host Kit Mashra. In this edition, we'll take a closer look at the report of the parliamentary standing committee on personnel, public grievances, law and justice on SEESAT. If you're preparing for the UPSC civil services exam, understanding SESAT is very important. SEESAT introduced in 2011 is an integral part of the UPSC examination process. It comprises of two compulsory papers, general studies and aptitude test. While general studies evaluates a candidates's knowledge in diverse fields, the
0:48 aptitude test assesses their logical reasoning and analytical abilities. The inclusion of seesat was aimed to bring about a comprehensive evaluation of candidates suitability for civil services. And for deeper insights on the observations of the parliamentary committee, I'm joined by very illustrious guests. Joining us in the studio, Mr. Bridge Lal, chairman of parliamentary standing committee on personnel, public grievances, law and justice. Welcome to Sansa TV, sir. And also joining us, Mr. Manoj Yadava, director general of Hana Institute of Public Administration. Welcome Sansa TV gentlemen. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Sure. >> And Mr. Brishlal, allow me to begin the show with you. >> Sir, you're not just chairman of the parliamentary standing committee. You've been former DGP of Uttar Pradesh, a very
1:33 very decorated officer, one of the finest civil servants that this country has produced. And before we talk about SEESAT, I would just like to understand what has changed in the civil service examination pattern when you appeared and for today's UPSC aspirate. During my time I am 77 bach IPS 1976 civil service exam. During my time there is no preliminary test. We had three compulsory papers general English general knowledge and essay 150 marks each and three optional paper like MS mathematics. So I opted for physics chemistry math and two higher paper that means three compulsory and five optional
2:20 papers. Compulsory paper had 150 mark each and optional paper 200 mark that was and the whole mark was evaluated added and then you have to appear for your interview. So during my time I know it was English medium but essay you can write uh in regional language but the topic was in English. I know my one of my friend who became a chief secretary of estate he could not understand the topic and got zero mark in essay. He got very about 33% mark in English but he
3:05 had 10th rank in UPSC and bright officer chief secretary of a state but during my time that that was the process and in my time mostly all the candidate were from different disciplines like humanities arts and I'm MS mathematics >> sir >> so that was the uh process in my time >> right >> but now it has changed a lot. I think this uh new system came about prelim about 1980 or so >> 79 79 >> was the first exam >> 79 was the first exam >> so that way and now this seesat it came later
3:51 and now introduced in 2011 >> yes sir >> seesat >> we'll just talk about seesat in a bit sir Mr. So yada coming to you. You've been former DGP of Hiana, former DG of RPF, a very very illustrious officer. Sir, just to set this discussion and give it a context. Tell us about what has changed in the civil services examination. >> The change as they say is the only constraint in life. Every system, every institution has to keep changing to keep pace with the evolving realities of the times. what uh Shir Bdal just mentioned that in 79 a very big change was done this was the based on Kotari committee recommendations what was happening that the number of candidates appearing for
4:37 the examination was rising as a result the examiners had to evaluate very large number of copies and it delayed the publication of the result and therefore Kotari committee recommended that there should be a preliminary examination to rule out or to edge out those candidates uh which are not above a certain threshold level. So the main purpose of was that only quality candidates 10,000 candidates you will admit to the main exam whereas the number of people applying in lacks. So therefore it was essentially preliminary examination as a screening mechanism to rule out those and only to have the competition among the 10,000 best. So this program had been changing and what they did uh the
5:23 Kotari committee recommended did away with the English essay. >> Yes. >> And the reason was that the essay is to working to the disadvantage of socially disadvantaged people. People who study in St. Stephens or Hindu College have a better chance. So this was discontinued. Two subjects were introduced. Two papers each of subjects. For the first time engineering subjects were introduced electrical engineering, mechanical and civil. Before that engineers could not appear and if they appeared they had to take some other subjects. So this system ran very well for a particular period of time and then need was felt even for change in this and uh so seesat as sir has pointed out was introduced in 2011.
6:11 They realized that a basic intelligence, the basic numerical ability, basic linguistic ability and analytical ability should be checked as part of the preliminary examination and the marks for CET were included for determination of the merit for selecting 10,000 candidates. Within two years there was a big uproar and it was argued that including this for the merit uh is leading to disadvantage to uh children from humanity's background. So uh and the question was raised in the parliament also. >> Sir I remember >> and as a result the government bought to the public opinion and it said all right she set marks will not be included for
6:56 determination of merit of preliminary examination. They made it a qualifying examination and they said okay if you can score 33 and a half% in this then you will be considered for selection in so that is the major change and now ultimately four years back government did away with two subjects. >> So >> now you have to offer only one subject and instead of those two papers two additional general studies papers have been introduced and essay has also been introduced. Right sir, thank you so much for putting things in perspective for us sir. Mr. Brishlal, now the committee that you head has given a very comprehensive report and it has asked UPSC to review SESAT. Sir, what are the factors? What are the
7:42 reasons and what are the important recommendations given by your committee? You know there are 31 MPs in every standing committee. >> So >> including me as the chairman and in this committee we have MPs from all the parties according to their strength. All of my members there we are of the view that she said is a silent machinery that is discriminating with candidates from humanities and outside background they said this should be eliminated even one civil servant Mr. Harsh Bardan Singla.
8:28 >> Yes sir. >> Ex foreign secretary. >> Foreign secretary. Yes sir. >> He was of the same view. And one MP from Hana Congress. He said all MPs agreed that this is that is a impediment for the candidate of humanities and outside reason there are two papers. Number one is general studies. In my time we used to call it general knowledge. >> And the second paper is this uh seat civil services aptitude test. They are having uh this 200 marks. In CET there 80 questions and in general it is there's 100 question two marks
9:15 each and there is a minus marking also. So in cite you have to minimum score 33%. And if you don't score 37 your general studies paper will not be evaluated you are eliminated there. So we had long discussion with DOP, Union Privy Commission we called and we came to the conclusion that either it should be rationalized or it should be abolished. I presented my report in the parliament on 16th March in Rat Sabha >> sir >> and my MP which were nominated by me Mr.
10:00 Fagan Singh Kulasti his ex minister >> sir >> he presented report in Lok Sabha the MP is of the view that this is not good in favor of the candidate who are from Hindi background and result is the Hindi speaking the Hindi speaking boys and this odd side the successful candidates are decreasing day by day and only about 65% engineers years are coming as civil servant. So this is I think all my employees has concerned over it and the biggest we thought the seat is the biggest impediment for the boys who are
10:45 boys or girls who are coming from humanities background. So that's why we submitted our report in parliament and I also personally I raised it through a zero hour question in parliament. Yes, we do remember that sir. But that's a very very alleged concern that you're raising. Let me take that to Mr. Yadiva. Sir, the perspective is that it causes disadvantage to non-science and Hindi- speakaking students or aspirants. How do you allay that concern? >> So first of all, my deep respect for the 31 member parliament, our parliament parliament behalf committee
11:36 legitimate concern. As I mentioned already that earlier this exam CET was introduced and the marks of CET were included for determination of merit for qualifying preliminary examination. So first question is why cert was included to be start with in 2011. >> So my submission is that uh it is the finding of psychologists all over the world and particularly in India also that to select candidates for civil service we must select the best. >> That means the person should be intellectually and academically very strong. So what are the basic
12:23 determination that you have to have good analytical skills as a civil servant you have to have good numerical skills, mathematical skills and you have to be have good linguistic skills in the English language. So these are the basic numerical ability, grammatical ability and analytical ability are being judged. So let me first submit that this examination is already being administered even for sub inspector examinations, constable examinations in the states and in the and it is being counted for merit. It is not elimination. Number two, even for bank probationary officers, public sector units examination, excise inspectors, staff selection commission. This examination is an integral part of all competitive
13:10 examination for selection to any job. >> Sir, >> leave all the top civil service of the country. So the question is that already the system has made one compromise that they reduced it inclusion for merit and made it only qualifying. So I think if somebody is not scoring 33 and a half% in a fairly easy predictable examination the mathematics is of high school level which is being asked. Secondly I do not buy this theory that those from speak Hindi speaking background are poor in mathematics. Sir himself came from a village school and he was Hindi speaking but he became MSE mathematics. That means that mathematical skill is god-given. Some people have some do not have. Even in public schools, people
13:56 struggle with mathematics. So the idea is that today's world is a world of datadriven decision- making the charts, diagrams, evidence-based policing. You have to study the patterns. So if I can analyze graphs, diagrams, I can make sense of statistics only then I can be a good decision maker. So I respectfully my view is that this system already made a compromise once it should be retained. Sir, I can see a smile on your face. You have a divergent view. Please, sir, all yours.
14:52 Out of 80 50 questions are purely mathematical. South north east west even people are speaking in English there. you are eliminated at that stage. So this is not fair. That's how after a
15:39 long deliberation we came at the conclusion that this should be done away with or it should be rationalized and that should be there equal opportunity for every candidate. >> So very very valid point you've raised equal opportunities. Mr. Yadva ultimately it's about providing level playing field and equal opportunities your take on that sir >> so first of all I'm not a aware that if I'm sure that some study must have been done my impression is that when I visited the Masuri academy just 4 days back and I interacted with the officers of 20 uh 25 batch who were completing their phase one and I asked their social
16:25 background I I'm so happy to report that people from the poorest background, sons and daughters of farmers, sons and daughters of people who are uh plumbers and rshapers, they are qualifying this exam. It is no longer a preserve of the rich and the powerful and people from urban areas. Bulk of the candidates which are coming are from small towns. They are working hard and they are qualifying. So my point is that uh we must look at the evidence. Secondly, what will happen that today if we concede this argument at the civil service level similar arguments will be raised for the u combined graduate level examination of the conducted by the SSC for the sub inspectors exam entrance
17:11 examinations because in India what you have to eliminate sir rightly said that they are being eliminated but that is the whole purpose of preliminary examination. Ultimately you can only take 1,000 people in a year and 10,000 people can take the examination and therefore uh some uh questions are tough for that reason. If UPSC does not for example in the preliminary exam in the general studies paper only with if you score 50% you will qualify that means the paper is made so tough that even toppers of IITs cannot score more than 51%. So when out of six lakh people you have to choose 10,000 from 200 questions you have to frame the paper tough
17:57 because it's a survival of the fittest. Our civil services deserve the best with proper numerical analytical skills. I respectfully submit my view >> and we already have two best civil servants of this country sitting here in our [clears throat] studio. Yes sir. Yes sir. >> One question more. at the present system we are getting from 60 to 65% candidate and engineers. Sir >> during my time I'm embassy mathematics and all science background all that this situation not so I totally agree that now person from every background during my time also in my batchmates Uttar Pradesh out of u we are 16 and about 14
18:45 we are from villages we are is still there but the seaside which is having more mathematical question and this is a I already said this is silent eliminator and this should be this is not fair for Hindi speaking people and the person from candidate from humanities >> but sir let's look at the other side of the argument from a different prism if you do not have seesat how do you assess the candidate how do you ensure the analytical capability How do you ensure that there's reasoning in the candidate? >> I agree. But this mathematical I think I'm I'm only concerned about the mathematical portion. Due to
19:31 mathematical position the candidate of humanity arts were eliminated and only engineers are are coming that's why they are eliminated at preliminary level and that's why 65% engineers are coming. This is not fair. During my time it were not so and before she said this was not not so but this is now happening that's why all the MPs this is they are representing lacks and lacks of people they are hearing the views of student parents all that so that's why 31 MPs have agreed unanimously and recommended that there is some reason behind it >> Mr. Adva sir says there's some reason
20:17 behind it. >> No let's I think I have had what I had to say >> sir >> and the government of the day the parliament is a supreme decider. This is my view which I have already mentioned. So I think on this discussion >> also the fact that 65% are engineers. >> How do you look at that? >> So first of all uh I think it is by design. Earlier engineers were not coming before 79. when I appeared in the examination I am MA economics and MBA I am not an engineer but the in my uh group out of top 20 rank 19 were engineers why it is so because engineering exam and medical entrance exam are the toughest exam and the
21:02 brightest of the society go there and even in IIT 40% children are from rural areas who have no benefit of IIT coaching like fit G or Akash. What does it tell us? That when Almighty distributes talent, it does not discriminate. It does not look at your cast or where you are living. It gives it and the most talented people become engineers. So it is no surprise that in the qualifying list engineers will be more even I'm 100% sure that even if sees is abolished even then 65% engineers will remain because at that stage the brightest kids go to IITs. >> Well again uh that's a very very important argument but uh we completely short on time. One more one more
21:48 argument >> sir. >> I did my MSE in 76 and same year I appeared for Indian forest service and then this civil service I know in Indian forest service is still requirement is he should be a science candidate. >> Yes sir only science candidate because that is the requirement of the forest service. >> Exactly. >> All right. But that requirement is not so in civil service though I disagree with my younger brother Manos >> sir sir >> that this should be it's not fair that out of 2019 are engineers >> absolutely sir and in democracy we must have different views uh but let's take concluding remarks uh from both the panelist uh bridgeal sir future of UPSC
22:36 that shapes India's destiny that shapes India's steel frame as this UPSC this I I think especially the civil service it is is steel frame of Indian administration and especially isn IPS I was speaking on a CAPA bill >> sir >> and I said sard Patel when this all India services were created he said this is steel frame of India that's why we alled a particular cred so it had worked well before independence and after independence also. So we should have a best candidate in as a civil servant and especially the
23:21 all India's services. So but I think before seat the candidates who were uh became IPS or other services they are not less. Well, absolutely sir and the biggest examples we have on the panel. Mr. Yadava, your closing remarks. So for a country as diverse and as large as India, we should be proud of our civil services and we should be proud of UPSC which has maintained an absolutely impartial objective system of selection and recruitment >> through which the candidate coming from the bottommost section of society has a
24:06 chance of serving in the highest civil service. So my naman to UPSC and the people who designed this system now but the task of civil servant has become very challenging. >> If we have to attain the ambition of becoming Vikat Bharat by 2047 as uh a vision has been given by our honorable prime minister. Our ci civil services have to reorient themselves. They have to make those forward-looking policies which are inclusive. We have to ensure distributive justice. >> Yes, >> we have to ensure that the person at the bottom of the pyramid gets a hearing and gets a justice. We must create a more just and humane society. And in that I
24:53 see that the civil servants of the future have to combine these two requirements. And it is my personal view that what they need most of all is a sense of ethics and a sense of integrity. We are coming having very competent people. But unfortunately we also hear unwelcome stories about young civil servants. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> So we need civil servant with a value system who are there to serve and not to govern. >> Well absolutely. Uh we have last 60 seconds on the show sir. We need integrity. >> Yes. That is the most important integrity, impartiality and dedication. Now you know monoi there are lot of changes when we joined there was three
25:40 nor three rifles. >> Yes. >> Now we are having AK-47 but when the civil servant come they have to go different type of training like in my time there is no computer but I know computer now. Sir there are no surveillance we our working was only based on human intelligence. So I think let the civil servant come there a lot of training and we learn that is not necessary that only a technical man can learn this and men from humanities they kind of can't I think this logic is I don't agree with it there should be cream and they should come and there
26:28 should not be a discrimination as at present chatism is hindrance to >> sir and they should dedicate themselves to the service of the nation. On that very very positive note I hope all the civil servants and all the aspirants are listening to us Mr. Yadava and Mr. Brishtal. Thank you so much for joining us on discussion. Thanks a lot sir. >> Well viewers that's all we had for you in this edition. Thanks for watching and stay tuned to Sunset TV. Goodbye for now from my side. [music] >> [music] [music] >> To watch more programs of Sunset TV,
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