0:04 My idea is we create old age homes >> that are kindergartens. >> Y >> cuz old people >> they've done that. >> Wait, they have? >> So they've done a research. They stole my idea. Come on. >> So if No, no. So they haven't done this for like as a business. SO GO FOR NO, BUT THERE IS actually research to show your idea would work. If I'm clear on your idea, >> this is why I need you in my life and my life. You know how many his idea is great. You know how many times I say things to people and then they'll be like I don't know if that and if I had you around you could be like there's research to show. Bam. >> This is what now with Trevor.
0:56 Well, I'm going to call you M on the brain. But what what what do your friends call you? >> They call me M. >> They call you M as well. M. >> Yeah, >> I like this. >> M on the brain. >> No, you know, at least you got it right because a lot of people think it's like I the brain. They think my name's Iman. Yeah, >> it's it's a common misconception. So, >> cuz it's spelled E M O N T H E brain. >> I mean, it just seems >> logical that it would be M on the brain. Although I can't judge them if you don't read the person's name >> under their their like, you know, their tag. What? I guess it's Iman. >> Mhm. >> Iman the brain. >> That's a >> I prefer M. >> Okay. >> Okay. M.
1:42 >> Oh, but um this this is this is what I like to call a selfish episode because I feel like Eugene and I are really just going to ask you to fix our brains for us. Perfect. >> You know what I mean? Because you you you're you're known as and I've watched your evolution online which has been really great um to see from afar is like you you shared your journey um studying working in and around you. What were you studying at the time? >> Um I was studying drug addiction. >> Drug addiction. Investigating new ways to treat relapse to prevent drug addiction or relapse to drug addiction. Yeah. >> That's wild. Mhm. >> And so when you were in university, what were what were you like going into study cuz how did you get into? Was it neuroscience? Was it what was your like your your focus and your passion at the time? >> Well,
2:28 initially I was premed. >> Yeah. >> Studying biology. Absolutely hated it. And so I went up to one of my friends that was in my premed org I was in in college and I told him I hated it. I was like, "What should I do?" And he goes, "Well, why don't you try neuroscience?" And I had never even heard of neuroscience at the time. It just sounded cool. So I switched my major to it. Immediately fell in love, like aced my first exam. My professor reached out to me. He was like, "Congrats, you couldn't have done better." And I was like, "Get me in the research lab. This is so cool." So I started studying learning, memory, the perception of time all throughout brain development in undergrad. So that's what I was doing. Fell in love with research. But I knew I always kind of knew that I wanted to be more kind of pre-clinical helping people more directly. Like studying learning
3:13 and memory is cool, but I wanted to be able to like >> help people and solve problems that doctors couldn't solve. >> Wait, sorry. What does preclinical mean? >> Like for example, so preclinical research is sort of research that happens before you know we take a a medication for example to clinicians to use, right? So you're doing sort of research to investigate new ways to treat for example relapse or treat depression or anxiety or Parkinson's disease and you uh so that's kind of like preclinical work before it goes >> to clinicians basically. Um, yeah. And so, actually, it's funny that you were kind of talking about nicotine before this because I used to be addicted to nicotine. And that was sort of why I initially became passionate about
3:59 studying drug addiction. And I took a class in undergrad about why the current treatments for relapse don't work. And they're really just putting they don't really work because they're just putting band-aids on the symptoms of the problem rather than actually solving the problem. And that's why research is so important because you can go and investigate what the problem really is. And so immediately I was like, "This is it. This is what I'm meant to do. I'm meant to go and cure relapse to drug addiction. I'm going to go get my PhD and I'm going to win a Nobel Prize for this." And so yeah, and so from then I was like, "Okay, let me go get my PhD in neuroscience." So that is sort of how I became really passionate about drug addiction research and how I the path that led me to the PhD. So yeah, moved to Arizona, started my PhD in neuroscience with a minor in medical
4:46 pharmarmacology. so that I could study drug addiction and that's what I was doing for a few years. >> That's really crazy. I did it work for you. Did Did the research help you? >> Smoking. >> How do you know? >> Because she had to go to university to do it. >> Oh, you don't you don't know. Are you making these assumptions? >> He is making assumptions then. I would say I would say the research in itself, no. But my knowledge of the brain, absolutely. Yes. I taught myself to associate >> um and it was vaping for me, but I taught my brain to associate it with just the feeling of disgust. >> You rewired your brain. >> Yes. >> So, you took a feeling that you didn't have before for something that you liked. >> Mhm. >> And then recoded it >> and said, "This this is disgusting." >> The action of it exactly >> buying it, putting it into my pocket,
5:32 put it into my mouth. >> So, I would bring out the smoke. I would let myself carry it around still and I would let myself have the craving and I would I would put it in a place where it took me a second so that there was kind of a gap between the initial craving and the action of actually doing it because that's what addiction is right it becomes like this mind mindless stimulus response behavior where the stimulus is like seeing the vape or seeing the cigarette or whatever it is and then immediate response or for example social media you see the notification all of a sudden you're picking up your phone and you're scrolling and you don't even know how you got there right so It's I kind of added a little bit of space where I still would carry it around. I'd put it like I would drive and I'd put it underneath the passenger seat of my car and I would get that craving and I would like add a red light. You know, it gave me some time to kind of rewire that association. And the brain's an
6:17 association machine. You're in a relationship with everything in your life. So yeah, I would pick it up and I'd be like, "Oh no, this is disgusting." And even if I wanted to still hit it, I would. But then I would make sure to like pay attention to the feeling of feeling gross that I just did it. And I would sit in that feeling and and really feel the feeling and make sure my brain was paying attention to it. Yeah. And over time Yeah. And so even after I quit, I would get that craving still, of course. And then immediately my brain would remember, oh yeah, no, that's gross. We don't really want that. >> Okay. Wait, so help help us understand or help me understand really the the the process of what's actually happening. Because you're saying this about vaping. You're saying, you know, disgusting. In my head, I'm like, "Oh, but there strawberry flavors." I don't even vape, by the way. Never smoked. in my in I love strawberries. I'm like that's how
7:03 they'd get me. >> But I I I can I feel like I can have the same I have the same story with like ice cream late at night or you know chocolate and then somebody else might have it with social media where they go oh that's exactly me. Every time I pull it out >> I've lost I've lost 2 3 hours 4 hours but I didn't actually want to be here. >> Yeah. >> So how how does that work? First of all, what is happening to the brain when it's when you're doing that? When you're doing something you don't necessarily want to do, but you keep finding yourself doing, what is happening to the brain? And then I want to get to how the rewiring actually works. >> Yeah. So, what's happening is really just maladaptive habit formation. And that just means the formation of bad habits. That's all it is. It's just learning. And I think, you know, in
7:49 undergrad, I was definitely divinely led on the path toward studying learning and memory first because then I really understand the process of learning. And that's really all it is is you've just learned a behavior. Your brain has learned a behavior and it's learned to automate that behavior so that it's no longer a conscious act. For example, getting up in the morning and hopefully brushing your teeth is an automated behavior that >> that you >> How will they know? They'll never know. Well, I'm hoping I'm hoping that that's an automatic behavior. >> Okay. Yeah. Before but but before you move on from that, then why why is it that good habits are harder to keep? Like I know that working out is good for me. I know that going for a walk is good for me. I know that stretching is good for me. I know I I know all these things
8:34 >> and then I'll do them and I'll feel good after doing them. >> But then I don't I don't find myself craving like a gym session. I don't find myself being like, you know, be nice right now. A little bench press. I know it's midnight, but I can sneak in a little 250. >> You see, I like to do that sometimes, but I'll tell you, there's a couple things there. All right. So, if you want to talk about the neuroscience of habit formation, the way that every single habit is formed is it first begins as a dopamine driven activity, right? So, when social media first came out, you weren't going on social media out of habit. you went on there because you could connect with your friends or you could, you know, see, you could post something or whatever it is, right? You're you went on there for a a goal, for a reason. >> Um, same thing with ice cream or, you
9:21 know, vaping, whatever it is. You kne you started it because it felt good. That's why you started. >> Okay? So, feel good is the first thing, >> right? And then that dopamine. So, dopamine actually drives learning. It drives neuroplasticity, which is the ability for your brain to rewire. So, dopamine drives learning. So, and dopamine does isn't just released when something great happens, it's also released when something not so great happens. It's more of a a salance molecule, which means like look at me. So, anything that really like grabbed your attention, that's why you have really strong memories of bad events as well because they're emotional and they raise dopamine as well, just in a different way. >> So, yeah, anything that really boosts dopamine, it will drive that learning, right? And so what actually happens is that over time the dopamine moves from
10:07 being released when you get the good thing to being released whenever you see sort of a cue or something that represents that good thing right so for example it's super super easy to just talk about it with you know drugs of abuse but we can talk about ice cream it initially you got dopamine from eating ice cream but over time you get the dopamine from seeing the ice because your brain's anticipating a reward. So your dopamine moves from actually getting the reward to the anticipation of the reward. And that's craving. >> So that's sort of how habit formation works. And then once that happens, then you kind of begin this this it goes from this goal directed behavior, right? and
10:53 it moves to um a stimulus response behavior or a cue response where like before it was like oh I want to eat this ice cream because I know like I want to eat this ice cream it's going to taste good and now it's like oh no I see the ice cream dopamine is released when I see the carton and that's going to drive me because dopamine is also a molecule of action to go and eat it and you're not even you don't want to it's just that your dopamine has learned to associate the picture of the ice cream that you're seeing with a reward and now you're not even deciding it. It's just your brain is driving you to do it. >> This is why ads work. >> Yeah. >> But but I guess it also explains to me why ads are more effective when you've actually had the thing. >> Mhm. >> So sometimes I'll watch an ad for like Taco Bell for instance. Taco Bell ads
11:39 come on all the time. It's never never ever once made me go I want Taco Bell because I haven't had Taco Bell in my life. I don't >> ever >> maybe I had it once. I had it once on the road when I was with Gabriel Eglacias and then we bought one of my favorite memories. >> We were on the road somewhere um where were we? Maybe we were in we were in El Paso, Texas or maybe somewhere in that region and after all the after a comedy show, we'd go and we'd just buy, you know, food, whatever, take out. And then one day, Gabriel and the gang, we're in the we're in the tour bus and then he's like uh he says to me, he's like, "Yo, yo, um he's like, "Do you want to get some Taco Bell?" I was like, "I've never had Taco Bell." Everyone in the bus like, "YOU NEVER HAD TACO BELL." IT WAS LITERALLY LIKE AN AD. EVERYONE, YOU'VE NEVER HAD WE GOT TO GET HIM TACO BELL. THE bus driver,
12:26 we're on the way to Taco Bell. So now we're driving this giant tour bus like Taco Bell, here we come. We get there. Now we want to go through the drive-thru. We can't cuz the bus is too big. So we have to walk through the drive-thru cuz the the Taco Bell stuff was closed. So, we walk through the drive-thru and then they just b like we ordered for everyone on the bus plus more cuz they wanted me to taste everything. And I'll never forget there's a moment where I'm walking back to the bus and I'm carrying two bags, but I mean like huge huge huge huge bags. I felt like Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman, you know, when like you I come back from shop but with Taco Bell. Guys, I've never felt sexier in my life cuz I love food. I was like and I'm walking to the bus and Gabriel Glaciius as he's looking at me like from the bus
13:13 and he looked and it was almost like we had the same thought cuz as I got to the bus he looked at me and he's like you've never looked harder and I walked on but that was the only time I ate it. Right. So and it was like okay whatever. >> I was going to say what did you think? >> Yeah it was me. It was okay. It was whatever. >> Mhm. >> But it it didn't it wasn't something that like >> it didn't stay with me. So genuinely whenever I watch a Taco Bell ad I don't have a oh I should get that now. But Pizza Hut or like a McDonald's or one, >> let them flash a McFlurry on the screen >> for half a second. >> Yeah. >> I will find that machine wherever it is. I will turn it on myself. >> You love ice cream. >> Hey, my friend. >> He's the only guy I know who chews ice cream. >> Yo, bro, you know me and you love me.
13:58 You see you you see me. >> You You see me, Eugene. >> Choose ice cream. >> You chew it even without I chew it. I I savor it. I guys, >> he's like an ice cream silier. >> This guy loves me. This guy knows me. No, but that's what I mean. It's like so like the ads have more power over you >> when you've actually experienced the thing. >> Do you get what I'm saying? Absolutely. >> Right. Right. Because your brain has learned that it's rewarding. >> Wow. So then it becomes now it becomes a trigger. That's how it can work on you is like because now you've had it when you watch the ad or when you see like the social media thing scroll. >> I think this explains so much. What you're saying also explains why going cold turkey on anything never works because anything that you love there's a process to it like how we explained you going into the shop choosing a flavor
14:45 paying for that getting the reward of paying for it cuz you know have it now you put in your pocket but all of a sudden if the whole process is cut short then the reward is not there anymore then you start missing the thing more but I find that when you have the vape inside your car but you choose not to do it then you're slowly taking away the >> the one I love that you made that point of like feeling stressed too because that was another thing and that's why I decided to do it the way that I did because when you go cold turkey it almost especially when you're addicted to something you feel this sense of like stress without it and not having it and stress reduces activity in the prefrontal cortex which is the area of your brain that allows you to control your impulses. So it actually makes you and that's why you know when people quit an addiction or something and all of a sudden they feel stressed they are more
15:31 likely to relapse because it your ability to control your impulses is reduced. >> But here's my thing. Do we quit things that we're addicted to because they're hurting other people or do we quit because they're hurting us? Cuz initially everything there was a dopamine spike. I liked what I was doing. I was having too much of a good time at a strip club. Now I have kids. Now I have to think, do I tip strippers or do I pay for school fees? Is it the strippers or is it the kids that am I stopping this because I want to stop or because they are crying because they're hungry now? Not the strippers. The kids. >> These analogies are so crazy. >> So Trevor thinks this is really funny >> cuz you choose ice cream. >> No. No. But I'm sitting here like thinking about this very much from my own perspective and experience. And the
16:16 way that I decided was it's always about who I'm wanting to become. >> And it's always about that. And you know, you can never force somebody to quit something they don't want to. Like, you have to want to do it. And I think for me, I didn't care to quit vaping. I didn't care how many ads showed me what happens to your lungs. Like, I didn't care about any of that. I was young. I don't care about that. I don't care about my health. Like, whatever. The the thing that actually made me care about stopping was understanding that there is a gap currently between the who you are now and the version of you who's achieved everything you've ever wanted in life. >> And when you visualize that version, when you have hold that version of you in your mind like that version of you has different habits than you do right now and the version of me who's boss
17:01 woman like achieving everything she doesn't vape and so I was like damn like if I want to become that version of me and achieve everything I want to achieve then I need to stop doing this because it's creating a gap between where I am now and where I want to go. So this is this is I think something that attracted a lot of people to your account and to what to your work online is like there were a lot of people who would give you information about the brain in a very technical way that help you understand how your brain works, what your brain does, you know, dopamine and there's all these phrases, you know, like stimulus and neoprene and like all these things plasticity. Maybe you were trying to say norepinephrine. >> I That's exactly what I was trying to
17:47 say. That's exactly But you knew what I was trying to say. You see? You see? That's That's exactly what Cuz every time I see that word, I'm just like, "Hey man, neoprene." >> I I knew what you meant. >> Thank you very much. Neoperine. >> Have you ever seen how it's written? Neop. >> Exactly like that. >> It is written like that. Neopanine. All right. And then people sort of just you you think you know and you're like oh the new neopreipanine and the dopamine and then the serotonin and the oxytocin. Okay. And then on the other side of like let's say the internet/the world you have people who are like visualize and think about what you want in life and what I and I think a lot of people would call like woo woo you know be like visualize do you and you're like all right and a lot of people love that and swear by it. And then I I find these
18:33 two worlds have often been at odds. >> Mhm. >> So someone who's like deep in the science goes like don't listen to that. And someone who's deep in the woo goes like don't listen to the other thing. >> And then you started showing the connection between the two. You went like no no no. Let me explain how a meditation does something to your brain. And let me show you how your brain responds to what you want to what you think. And let me show you how a visualization shifts you and shapes you. How did how did you start thinking that? Because I'm I'm assuming you didn't learn that in school. >> No. And I actually get asked all the time, any books you recommend? I'm like, it's very much a connection between two disciplines that I love and that fulfill me. But yeah, I would say in school when I was getting my first neuroscience
19:18 degree kind. Yeah, I have two degrees in neuroscience. >> Hey, hey, hey. One for you and me each, Eugene, to make up for the degrees we never got. He said first. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um >> I do too. >> Um so yeah, when I was getting my first degree in neuroscience and studying um especially just the different sensory systems. So for example, your visual system and how your brain constructs everything that you see. Like you're not seeing the world with your eyes. Your eyes are just taken in taking in light signals and then those light signals travel through the brain where your thoughts emotions memories your beliefs, who who you believe you are. All that's incorporated before you the image is even put together that you see
20:04 by your brain. >> Wait, let let's let's slow that down. Just just go back on that because you're going to say it and then we're going to act like we completely got it, >> which maybe you did. But wait, >> your eyes are not seeing. They're only taking in light. >> Right. >> Okay. And that light is then going into >> your brain, >> traveling through the brain, all these different areas. >> But it's basically being bent by your memories. >> Exactly. >> The way you think about the world, your current, >> your current emotions, >> you ever heard the saying seeing the world through rosecolored lenses? When you are feel when you are in a positive emotional state, your brain actually constructs color as more vivid. So you actually see the world more vividly and more saturated. So literally the world is more colorful and you actually are seeing the world through rosecolored
20:50 lenses. >> That that means there's almost a scientific backing behind the phrase woke up on the wrong side of bed. >> Yeah. Yeah. Your energy state it me is so important. And then that goes back to exactly what you were asking me about is is you know how did I start to connect spirituality and these woo woo things with neuroscience? And I think you know exactly when I was learning about these different systems and vision is just one of them. They all work this way. Like for example, sound and the way that you hear. Like the membrane in your ear is organized by frequency. And if you're on the woowoo side of the world, you you may have heard before that different frequencies of sound can have different effects on you. >> Yeah. Like sound bowls and all of those >> sio frequencies 528 432. And both of those have studies showing that they do
21:36 actually impact the brain in different ways. Um and binaural beats and things like that. So literally actually it all clicked one moment when I was laying in bed one night in my apartment um whenever I was in undergrad and I just was listening to and I sort of went on this spiritual journey toward the end of my first degree in neuroscience and I read the book the untethered soul if you guys have ever heard of that. It's really good. Um but and so I I started meditating and I started you know doing like and I I was laying in bed listening to 432 hertz as I was falling asleep and I was like whoa wait a minute the membrane in the ear is organized by frequency. What if this certain frequency of sound is activating my brain in a specific way and actually changing the way that my state of mind
22:22 is? And that's why these frequencies of sound work. And I turn over, pick up my phone, Google it, and there are papers showing exactly what just popped into my head. Like, yeah, 432 hertz has been shown to boost alpha wave activity in the brain. Alpha waves are associated with a sense of calm. And so, you know, people on the woo side of the world say, "Oh, it's really good for meditation or sleep." And then in the science world, it has been shown to help people fall asleep, stay asleep, boost alpha waves in the brain. And so that was kind of my first moment of, oh, maybe there is some overlap and there are some >> kind of right between the different worlds, >> right? And so that kind of just started me on this spiral, this upward spiral of
23:08 just connecting dots everywhere and and Yeah. And I think I've just got and then you know moving to Arizona. I was just talking to your team about Arizona and it's the desert is a very spiritual place and moving there while doing my PhD and just really growing in my spirituality while also of course doing a PhD in neuroscience. So really studying neuroscience to like the depths that you could possibly study it. >> And yeah, I just started connecting all these dots and then also connecting what I was learning with my own experiences as well. where does this information come from? And most of it, the information I share is from my own lived experience. And then I'm like, huh, what's happening in my brain right now? And then I think about it, look into it, read some papers, and I'm like, that makes sense. And then I talk about it. We're going to
23:55 continue this conversation right after this short break. >> All right, Eugene, let's play a little game. You know, make something fun. Two truths and a lie. Mhm. Here we go. One, I've had to tell a world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe, sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon customer for 11 years. What do you think? Very confused. First of all, why would a world leader own a fly? Cuz those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to your friends is not cool. There's never been a game. >> No, Eugene. Fly is for like the zip is what and then it's it's it's not a lie.
24:40 It's a game where I'm trying it's like I give you information. Okay, I lied. All three are true, Eugene. And in case you were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't as expensive as you think. In fact, if you bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the reason I've been with them for this long is just because I travel so much. I need a network that's reliable. That's right. A better deal on the best network with the most ways to save on plans, streaming, and phone deals. Take your AT&T or T-Mobile build to your local Verizon store today. Get your better deal and start saving for real based on root metrics. Best overall mobile network performance, US second half 2025. All rights reserved. You must provide recent consumer mobile bill in
25:26 the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions, and restrictions apply. So, do you understand how two truths and do you understand it now? >> I understand that you didn't have to lie first before telling me that Verizon is the best. >> No, I wasn't lying. Eugene, it's not a lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's a game. >> Okay. I'm sorry. >> I lied. AH. I I I wonder why slash how we got to a place where we we got so comfortable dismissing
26:13 spirituality or the ideas that come with like you know connecting to something beyond ourselves >> and having that clash with what we think of as like intelligence and knowledge and and do do you get what I'm saying? >> I think religion had a big part in that. What do you mean? >> Because remember that um once religion became a thing, people had to attribute their knowledge to something. >> Yeah. >> It could never be I just know it. You know, we always have there's always this debate in the spiritual >> realm of are you a human having a spiritual experience or are you a spirit having a human experience? >> And most people feel like when they discover themselves in the middle of their life, whenever it is, they were a human and now they're having a spiritual experience. But I think it's the other way around. And obviously literature has proved that. also when they speak to people who know that. So, religion
26:59 always wait. So, you're saying cuz I mean we we can never prove it. >> I'm with you 100% by the way. >> No, but we can never prove it. But I'm I'm in I'm I'm intrigued by what you're saying. You're saying the argument or the discussion is are we spirits that are experiencing being human or are we humans experiencing being spirits? >> Yes. >> But you can't >> are we a human having a spiritual experience or are we a spirit having a human experience? Yeah. >> So the thing is if you want to prove well that's a small part of it and you can correct me if I'm wrong. M that you are spirit having a human experience. >> Please get our guest name right. >> Iman >> now you're going to confuse the listeners. >> No no it's M. It's him. Yeah it's M. It's him. It's him. >> Is before you have language before you have experience you always had intuition. >> So how do you account for that?
27:46 >> So before you Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm I'm confident. So, so there's something there's a remembering that's coded in you already. >> And as you grow older and you get interference of signals of society, the time that you were born in, um how hard or how easy your life was, all of that gets numbed down and then you start living according to your experiences. >> Yes. But this is what I'm trying to this is the question. This is the question that I have for you though. >> Go like I guess for both of you, I guess in a way is like >> we are ready for there's two degrees between us of separation. not not academic. >> That was a good one. >> Um the the the the the thing I find interesting is is is this. So I grew up in a very religious household,
28:33 right? And the thing that I always struggled with and grappled with was how churches and leaders in churches and even members of churches would treat people using their religion as an excuse. Right? >> And we see this all over the world. But my personal experience, I often times found myself going, >> "Wait, is this so this is what >> this is what a Christian does?" I was like, "h I don't know, man. I don't know. It just it didn't it didn't gel for me." And so I think that created a an an allergy to all religion in many ways. >> As I've gotten older, I've I found in like a humbling way, I've gone like, "Oh, there are so many things that religion teaches people apart from like,
29:18 you know, dogma." >> Yes. >> That now science has sort of come around too. So whether it's like prayer itself, when you think about journaling and the effects of journaling and the processing and I'd love for you to speak a little bit about this closing your eyes and thinking about your day before you go to sleep. I I see all these things coming out now where scientists are like, "Oh, that really helps you go to sleep." And it also helps your brain sort of like just switch everything off. You know what I mean? But like so so something something like that or or something like fasting which most religions have or all these you're starting to see more of the tie-ins where science is sort of catching up to old ideas and then old ideas are showing themselves in science
30:03 like where do you think the breakdown came between people saying oh we shouldn't listen to that and now we're going maybe we should listen to some of that. Yeah, I think honestly there used to be a lot more overlap. Yeah, >> there used to be a lot more in science and in research in especially like in the 1900s there was a lot of research especially I mean even with psychedelics and things like that and what happened was there were a few scientists that just took it a bit too far and it got to the point where in the science world it became >> yeah I kind of started to have this dogma around it and this sort of like association around it and it it became almost disrespected in a way and it busted right And exactly, especially
30:48 with something as simple as hypnosis for example, like there's so much um like judgment and woo woo around it, but there's so much neuroscience around it as well. But because it has this sort of um like I don't know >> well the gimmick as well. Let's be honest, once you're making somebody jump on stage and they say they're a dog, I think it undermines what hypnosis may or may not be. And I'm not saying that thing's not real, by the way. >> Yeah. I think that that's exactly the analogy that I'm trying to make here is that it kind of that happened with a lot of the different, you know, research studies that were going on and it happened in not just hypnosis but in other areas as well. For example, like psychedelics. There used to be a lot more research on it and then scientists took took it too far and then it became, oh no, that's wrong. We shouldn't be doing that. And then we went from 100 to
31:35 zero. And then now we're starting to warm back up to it again. And we're slowly introducing it more and more into research and in studies. But also I think it's still I think it's still not really you know supported. I mean whenever I was in the PhD there was this one research lab that they studied mindfulness and meditation. That lab was not well funded. That lab did not get a lot of money for research. And I think that still is the case today. Okay. So now while we're seeing more, you know, research on spiritual concepts and spirituality, I think it's still not happening to the extent that it should be. Um, and and yeah, I think that that's been my experience. And then even now when I'm talking about things that I'm talking about online, I'm doing
32:20 research into really more hardcore scientific concepts like neuroplasticity, the default mode network, the reward system, all of that. and just knowing because I have such a solid foundation of that >> information and then I'm and then I'm learning about, you know, the law of detachment and all these things and then I'm connecting it to what I already know is true about the brain. So, it's not necessarily that there's a specific study that shows, you know, detachment makes your goals come faster. It's more about me knowing that, yeah, when you are in desperation and in this neediness, then that's going to boost cortisol. And when you are in a state of fight or flight, you get that deer in headlights tunnel vision where you're actually less open to opportunities and other things coming your way and your brain is filtering for more of that lack
33:07 and stress because that's the way the brain works. It filters your reality for whatever it is that you're focused on. So I just know how the brain works and then I connect it to spiritual kind of concepts, things that I'm learning >> which are which are oftentimes easier to understand. I find that that's where I find science is often lacking. science and academia. My criticism of it is often the fact that and maybe not of it. It does its job and then I feel like there's there's not enough like sort of middlemen who are getting the message out. Yeah. Yeah. So then it's just like a study and and it's abstract and then it's just left to the the devices of the world to be like this is what it actually means. But but then from the other side there's very good salesmen. >> Yeah. Yeah. people did try. I think um I
33:52 read a lot of books that were written by people who grew up in the 60s and were raised by hippies. >> Uh the Gary Zukovs, um Dr. Wayne Dyier, all of those people who kind of understood that to sell spiritualism or spiritualism, you're going to have to be a bit commercial and go around and bring your life experiences. I'm a doctor or was in the army. My experiences brought me this. But they knew that they were setting a time bomb that was going to explode in the future, 30, 40 years down the line because people were not ready. And obviously, if you think of if if hypnosis was taken for what it is, hypnosis is one stage of past life regression. >> Is what is is one stage of actually doing past life regression. >> I don't even know what that means. >> But when when it goes to a show in Las Vegas and it becomes people barking like dogs. >> Wait, but you can't just skip past what
34:38 you just said. >> Eugene does this to me all the time. Then he just says a thing. I'm I'm understanding what she's saying. >> Yeah, I'm not. I'm not. And I'm sure there's a lot of people who are not, but that I don't even care about them right now. Just me. What did you just say? I think >> Yes. >> Hypnosis is just one part of of doing a past life regression. >> What does that Yes. What does that mean? >> So, a lot of people there's a there's a doctor I think you know about Brian Weiss. >> I don't know if I do know. >> He did a lot of work studying uh people. He was a professor, a doctor in university. He started having this patient who was struggling with certain issues and then she he did hypnosis and then they regressed further and further back. Then he realized many one one body many lives is was one of his books if I'm not mistaken. So he found out that a
35:23 lot of things that people deal with is the body remember or your mind remembers what happened to you in other lives. So when you go back in other lives so people who have a fear of of drowning an unreasonable fear of drowning. So they've drowned in another life before and somehow there's something that happens that triggers that memory. The smell of water or sea water or salt that triggers that memory. So to cure that fear, you have to past life regress them. They have to go back into a life where something tragic happened. >> Yes. >> And that thing was associated with it. >> So it's funny. Half of my brain completely rejects this idea. >> Yes. >> But I mean you know me I always tell you these things. Half of my brain goes like no. The other half of my brain goes, we've had a trauma specialist on the
36:12 show, studied trauma her whole life, and she has showed us that there's definitive research that has shown that trauma can be passed down through generations of people who haven't experienced the initial trauma. So there's half of my brain that goes like, "Oh, I can understand this being possible, but not in the woo versus not woo." Does that make sense? >> In the world of woohoo, what you've just explained >> is the fact that there's soul families. >> No, no, no. I get this. No, but look, look no. >> We remember the pain together. >> Yes. But, but I get what you're saying. But, but I but you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying like, >> so sometimes this is this is what I think happens. And this is why I'm I enjoy your journey so much is
36:57 we I think we all live in a world where we are most comfortable with the reality that we've been brought up in >> and with the evidence that we've been taught to accept as being correct. Yes. >> Right. >> It is very difficult to shake that and it's very difficult to accept a possibility that something else could be different. But when you move through different worlds you you realize that it's necessary. So an example for me was um >> there were a lot of criticisms levied at African mothers for how they would raise their children >> by like westerners would come in whether it was colonizers whether it was you know whatever it was like they'd go oh this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong the way African mother this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong things they would complain about them wrapping
37:44 the baby onto their bodies and like tying them up and they'd be like no you should put your baby in a cot and you should leave them this and you should And then over the years when they started doing studies, there were scientists and there were groups that did studies where they found that having the baby up against the mom was really good for regulating their heartbeats, >> changing their respiratory patterns, calming them down, >> fostering trust, >> all of these things. And then do you I remember this moment distinct. Do you remember when they started launching the things that African moms had had their whole lives and they started selling them in the Western world? They're like the new trend. You wrap your baby to your body. And now it was like $200 to buy a thing that an African mom did with a towel. >> I remember this for me being a moment where I went, "Oh, wow." Yes.
38:32 Even I was taught that that thing is like primitive. >> Mhm. >> Your mom did it, but it was primitive and there's a better way to do it. And then at some point science or you know researchers went, "Oh, actually this is a great thing to do." and sort of didn't didn't levy the credit that way. So, I I'm I'm open to some of these ideas. I think some of the language throws me. I'm not going to lie cuz some people are more comfortable like when you just like past lives then I'm like whoa whoa whoa in my head I'm hearing a record go >> but when you explain the concepts behind it, I find that maybe I'm not the only person who's a little more open to the possibility of understanding it. It's just when you throw past lives flippantly. >> The terminology is >> it really I'm not going to lie, it throws me.
39:18 >> Yeah. I think and No, and I think that's I I like what you just described also because that's something that I really hold true for my own life is always following your own sense of intuition. And I think that if you're waiting around for a study to show you that something is right or wrong, then you're you're going to be waiting forever because science is really slow. But also just because a study shows something too doesn't mean that it is right or wrong. There are outliers in every single study. And so just because something might work for one person, you could be that one dot on the graph that it doesn't work for you. Could be a flawed study as well. >> And yeah, exact. And a lot of studies are very biased too that I used to do them. So I would like I've seen the types of people, you know, and not saying that, you know, they're people not trying their best, but you know, it's like humans are human and they are
40:03 going to make human mistakes. But I think >> what what what don't we understand about studies? what like because you know as the internet has has exploded >> as Tik Tok has become popular >> everyone I see on Tik Tok >> references a study and I mean everyone and I've seen everyone reference any study to say the thing that they're saying justify their is correct but I've seen every and then I've seen people pull up the same study and go no no no no this is not the study and then then someone else says a meta analysis is more correct so help us understand a study So for everyone out there, for us as well, when you're conducting a study, help me understand the very basic mechanics of what is actually happening and how that leads to a conclusion that then like CBS this morning will report
40:50 and be like coffee makes you live 20 years longer. >> How do they get there? >> I think those a lot of the like claims that are made end up being in the discussion which aren't even necessarily the point of the study. It's more just speculation of how these results can be applied to and extrapolated to other situations in life. But the way that a study begins is by asking a question, right? So we have we have this background of information. And I studied, you know, in my PhD a very specific receptor that we thought got leaky when we were relapsing the drugs. >> Leaky brain. >> Yeah. Just a leaky calcium channel. And so >> we know one >> and we're friends with one >> and SHOUT OUT LEAKY. AND YEAH, AND SO YOU you have this
41:36 background of information, right? And you know some things about it from other areas of research and you're like, "Okay, it seems well informed." And you don't just make a random ask a random question, but it seems well informed. And so it's like, okay, now I think based on what I know about this calcium channel, I think it could have something to do with relapse. And then you you you have to basically say a hypothesis, right? I think that if I for example block this channel then these you know then relapse behavior relapse is either gone or it will happen more right so you have to decide one way or the other and then you deci you design a study that you think will help to answer that question and now the way that that study works and the results of it is you no matter what results you get right you either say that you either you don't
42:23 ever say like oh I was right or I was wrong you're basically just testing to if those if the results are more if one thing is more likely to happen than the other. It's all likelihood. It's never a definitive yes or no. It's this is definitely you know this is more likely to not be the case or it more likely is the case that you know if I block this channel then this these people are no longer going to relapse. And >> but what else is it affecting in their lives? Well, that's a whole other topic when we talk about pharmarmacology, which was a whole other kind of path that I went down whenever I was right. So, whenever I also like I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was in high school and I was on ADHD medication for a few years and then
43:08 I learned about exactly what you're talking about like what else happens and how do these drugs actually work and then I made my own personal decision to transition off of them and go a different journey and then rewire my brain to be able to focus as well. Um but yeah and so I think that a lot of times we tend to put these studies or research papers up on pedestals and say oh this study shows this therefore this is the way things are and I don't think that that's the way that it should be done at all. can be used for information to inform, you know, yourself, but also like you were saying, meta analysis where that you take different studies and kind of look at the results from many different ones. Because another thing that you'll realize is that if you look up something, you could probably find a study proving that you're right. And it could be I I could look up, oh, you know, this is bad for your heart and
43:54 and I'll find a study proving that and I could say, oh, actually, I think it's good for your heart. And I could find a study proving that, too. And so, that's the thing is you can find a study to prove whatever it is that you want. And so I think it it is important to you know read a lot and read a lot of different research papers but also have more of a foundational understanding is at least in my field of neuroscience like having that foundational understanding of the way that the brain works is really important and so yeah I think that the whole it is becoming really popular that people are wanting to use a study to improve a point and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that but I do think it's important to recognize that you know there You can find a study to prove whatever that you want these days. >> How did you how did you apply this in your life? Because
44:40 I I find the internet slash the world is full of people who are more than willing to dish out advice and then often times don't seem to apply that advice to themselves. You know what I mean? >> And so you get these motivational speakers who when you meet them in real life aren't really motivated. uh you you you have like relationships experts who have terrible relationships themselves. You do you get what I'm saying? And and I'm I'm generalizing, but but but you'll often you'll find these >> what I found interesting with you is and you'll correct me if I'm wrong. It it feels like you were also running these sort of experiments on yourself and I I watched your life change in real time and over a very long period. I was
45:26 >> I noticed that because I went to DM you and I was like, whoa, you DM' me like almost two years ago. You were like you were doing Yeah. Two years ago I asked you to come on the podcast and but I've watched you go from >> Well, aren't we glad that was all you did >> because >> No, those those DMs I saved for you Eugene. >> Yo, Eugene, you you up you up. >> I represented you well. Hey, YOU LIKE this representing your fiance for the show. So um when when when when I looked at your life, I went it it it felt like just by watching you, I saw somebody who was sharing information whilst also
46:11 applying that information to themselves, >> conding a real time experiment. And I'd love to know like I'd love to know what your journey was like because >> everything everything about you changed over time and over time is the key thing for me. The key phrase here >> I didn't witness like a a magical transformation. You know like those those YouTube um uh um weightlifting they trick you all the time. Have you seen those ones? how I lost 40 lb in 6 weeks. And then they show you a before and after picture. And really all they do in the before picture is they just push their tummy out, but they still have a six-pack and they just maybe drink a lot of water. I don't know. And then they get shredded. But they were shredded. >> Yeah. >> With you, with all due respect, it didn't seem like you were shredded in your life. >> No. >> And then I watched you slowly work
46:58 towards the thing that you were telling people about. Like >> what was what was the what were the beginnings of those? What did you start to learn? Like can you give me examples? What was what were the moments where you went, "Oh, wow. This is this is working on me." >> Yeah. And I think if you do go back to the beginning and I leave all my posts up for that exact reason because I have students now like clients and that I coach and like go back to the beginning and watch my own journey through content because you'll see like it it's a very accurate representation of my journey in my personal life. But I mean I started out with ADHD that was so bad I would be depressed on days I wouldn't take the stimulants and I was super dependent on them. Obviously, we already talked about being addicted to nicotine. Um, couldn't focus, easily distracted, super impulsive, very emotional as well. Um,
47:43 just fight or flight all the time, always stressed, and also health issues, like physical health issues as well. I was in and out of doctor's offices when I was younger a lot. And doctors told me I had all these different problems like depression, anxiety, all these different things >> and not just mental health problems, but physical like hormonal imbalances and things like that. So I think you know that is what I I always just kind of thought that's the way that I was because that's something that you know doctor put gives you a diagnosis like this is you this is your brain this is who you are uh >> good good luck like that's going to be navigate that now for the rest of your life and I thought that's just the way that it was like oh I was diagnosed with ADHD I'm going to struggle focusing for the rest of my life and you know I'm going to need these stimulants and then I think learning about the brain as I was studying neuroscience I started you
48:28 know neuroplasticity the ability for your brain to rewire and change and adapt. >> I started to realize that, oh wait, maybe the brain can change. >> And I learned about epigenetics as well. I actually TA a class in the PhD on neurogenetics. Um, which is epigenetics is the ability to change the way your DNA is expressed, the genes that are expressed. >> The way your DNA is expressed, right? Can you elaborate? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I have this visual in my mind. I'm like, if I had a little model, I could really show it. >> Did you bring your DNA model, Eugene? >> Lift it in the car. Ah, always this guy. Just when we need it, this guy >> next time. >> Um, you know, >> but basically the way that you could think about it, right, is like basically you have this ball and then you have like yarn like around the ball, right?
49:14 And so it can either be the yarn can be tightly wound around the ball or loose >> and basically like how tightly if it's super tight and the the yarn is your DNA. >> Okay. Go ahead. And so, you know, there are little proteins that come in and they read your DNA. And then when they read your DNA, they build proteins based off of what it reads, right? If it's super tightly wound, it can't come in and read. And so, no proteins are going to be expressed or built off that DNA that's tightly wound because it can't be read. >> You're not open-minded, >> right? So, or you can be you can be openly wound, right? And then the proteins can come in and read your DNA and build proteins, right? And so, um, that's just one example. You know, it can be tight more tightly wound. We call it like methylated, phosphorolated. You know, there's like tightly wound. >> Yeah. There's all these different
50:00 >> If they said tightly wound, I would have had I would have a degree. Methylated. Uh, no, guys. You'll find me in the streets. >> Methylated phosphorilated. >> Yeah. >> You don't have to agree. Doesn't have to go home with this guy. >> Wait. Yeah, probably. But um, but that's, you know, so yeah. And so that's kind of what I mean. So basically your environment it basically it can it can alter the the how tightly or loosely wound your DNA is and your environment and this is like the way your environment can actually impact which genes are expressed. So you're not changing your DNA. You have the same DNA, but it's like which proteins can be made based off of that. >> Based off of your DNA, >> right? And that is going to depend on a number of factors. Your environment is
50:45 going to your mind. >> If I was to use like a this is a crazy like you crazy analogy. >> You're making it make sense. >> I like >> that's what she does. Now you get it. >> Wa crazy analogy that I would use. >> You should check out my content. >> I've never seen your content. >> I've I've literally never seen your content. Now I understand. >> I feel like you would like it based on what you're talking about. Yes, you're making it. Sorry to cut you off there. There was this um >> experiment, but not really an experiment, but people were comparing a generation of people in South Africa that were raised by grandmothers versus those that were raised by parents. >> No, no, no. Parents and going to uh crutch or >> kindergarten. And they found that the ones that were raised by grandmothers had more independence, more empathy, and they were they they knew how to clean, to cook, to take care of everyone, and
51:32 they were more patient. And the ones that went to kindergarten were more structured and institutionalized. And they believe that other things can be done by someone else. But those that were raised by grandmothers found that they also settled very early. They are very big on bonds and having so it was a generational thing for people that grew up in the 80s and the 90s because kindergarten was not a thing. So usually we'd get shipped off to go live with our parents before we started school. >> This is why I want to you you have once again inspired me to talk about my business that I want to launch. Yes. >> Yes. >> My idea is >> we create old age homes >> that are kindergartens. >> Yeah. >> Cuz old people >> they've done that. >> Wait, they have? >> So they've done a research my idea. >> So if No, no. So they haven't done this
52:19 for like as a business. So don't >> Okay, my idea is safe. >> No, but there is actually research to show your idea would work if I'm clear on your idea. >> This is why I need you in my life and my life. You know how many Well, let me tell you something. Great. You know how many times I say things to people and then they'll be like, I don't know if that. And if I had you around, you could be like, THERE'S RESEARCH TO SHOW. BAM. Not you, Bam. Bam. In general, you >> So they took a bunch of old people and they put them in this house that was decorated like it was the '8s. >> Mhm. and like say music like decorations all of it and they actually came out with biomarkers that showed that they had sort of reverse >> younger. Yeah. I always say like I always say like old pe young people >> make old people younger just like their vibe whenever I see like grandparents and grandchildren together >> and then the the inverse as well. I find
53:04 like grandparents help young kids grow up with that like so I've always thought why do we put old people in an old age? Why do we like send them off to die? Why don't we send them somewhere to live? And then why are we struggling with the kids? We should have told Zoran this. He wants child care in New York. >> Granny's >> granny's. Yeah. >> We could start like a whole thing. Granny's.com. And then it's like a whole vibe and then you don't feel like your grandparents are just stranded and they get to see new life growing around them and then the kids get to >> That's why people I'm going to give you a percentage. You were here for this and you're going to be handling our scientific division and then Eugene you'll be my spokesperson. >> Spokesperson? >> Yeah. >> How about R&D? >> No. No. No. No, no. What are you What are you researching? What are you researching? You know that. >> I thought I was already.
53:51 >> Don't go anywhere cuz we got more. What now? After this. >> So, with your life, so you you're talking about all these things and and and you were telling us how you started finally changed your life and how you applied it. >> Way to bring that back. Oh, I'm always I'm always in. I'm locked in. >> Um, yeah. And so I think it kind of began for me with and my journey of really initially the first step was understanding the brain. That was the first step. Understanding the neuroscience of reality. We talked a little bit about the visual system, how you hear, um, and understanding and honestly like the study that kind of changed the game for me whenever I was in undergrad was learning about this kitten experiment. It's a super classic
54:37 experiment like 1970. And they took these newborn kittens and they raised them in complete darkness except for a few hours a day where they put one group and they were alone, each of them individually alone in in a cylinder with only vertical black and white stripe lines. And they took different kittens, a different group, and they put them in a cylinder with only horizontal black and white stripe lines. They let their visual cortex develop. And then once they were fully developed or close to that, they put them in a normal everyday environment with everyday objects. And what they found was that the kittens that were only raised to ever see horizontal lines, they didn't respond normally to vertically shaped objects, vertical like vertically oriented objects like they would bump into table legs. No >> because they couldn't see them. And so
55:22 their brain actually, you know, didn't put together that image because it wasn't raised to see that. And so I, you know, and vice versa with the kittens that were raised to only see vertical lines. They wouldn't jump up on tabletops and perch because they couldn't they didn't really like their brains didn't, you know, respond normally to horizontal objects. So I kind of just was sitting there like, damn. Like if these kittens are only really able to respond in a way that in an accurate or appropriate way to things that they grew up seeing, what am I not seeing because of the way I was raised, right? like the jobs like money a relationship relationships especially like we grew up seeing certain types of relationships education like what am I missing now
56:08 that is probably right in front of me but my brain's not constructing that experience because it isn't programmed for it >> it's not so obvious to you >> right and so that I think was like the one of the first realizations I had where I was like okay like you know what I'm wanting my future to look like if it's different than what my past has looked like that I'm going to have to change my brain so that I can construct that experience. >> But it it shows sorry it shows this little gap that has become a huge crevice in society where science has replaced art because academia replaced art because kids used to it art used to be a way to measure who likes what. So now it became a thing of who can count who can remember the best and then you get channeled that way. But if you let
56:54 how to draw and then building blocks, how do you see the world according to your eyes versus we're going to sit you guys in one show you the world >> and we're going to show you to calculate and whoever remembers to calculate the best the quickest Yes. is the one that progresses in life. >> I I never thought of art like that's beautiful actually. I genuinely never thought of art like that. It is >> the perfect petri dish to see how everyone else sees the world. the coloring book and the building blocks >> cuz remember how every kid used to do you remember this like we'd go you'd go I don't know if you did this I used to see other kids coloring books and I'd be like why why did you >> yeah why do you use >> like why why would you use that color I was shocked at how we all had the same picture >> and everyone chose completely and they were like this is how I see the world and I was like >> none of us even see color the same way >> yeah that one still >> or remember the building block you'd be
57:40 like what is that they'll be like it's a house you'll be like that doesn't look like >> right well that's why I always say like
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