Is Praying to Saints Biblical? Sam Shamoun

0:00 I'm very confused why when I tell when I tell somebody that I'm interested in Catholicism who is let's say a Protestant friend. Yeah. They look at me in the same way that a Jewish person looks at me when I say I'm interested in Christianity. Yeah. Which is interesting to me because if everyone is saved by grace alone, why don't they extend that same um concept to Catholics and Orthodox? Well, because the Protestant Reformation historically saw the Roman Catholic Church as the enemy to attack and to discredit. So, a lot of Protestants not knowing the history or the issues simply parrot what they're told. The Roman Catholic Church is steeped in paganism. It's idolatry, Mary worship, they have

0:47 made her into a goddess, deified her, etc. So, a lot of the Protestants do not know what they're rejecting. And this is not just Protestants. You as a person who's ethnically Jewish, you can attest how many Jews actually even know what New Testament teaches and what Christianity teaches? Almost no one. So they have this caricature that Christianity are those bad guys who had a sword in their hand who slaughtered the Jews in Europe because Jesus, the Catholic God, hates Jews. Right. That's a typical stereotype. Yep. Basically. Yep. So a lot of people simply parrot what they hear and so they hear Roman Catholic Church the lore of Babylon like that Baptist guy remember the Baptist guy before me? Yep. The Lord of Babylon and idolatry and Mary worship and you

1:34 worship the saints and so it's a lot has to do with ignorance. Now the better informed Protestants, those who are better informed but no less uh antagonistic and I would say in some cases even more dishonest like James White. They won't say, "Oh yeah, the Catholic Church of Babylon." But they will say though the Catholic Church denies that they worship Mary and deny that Mary is a goddess. Their devotion to her shows otherwise. They have deified her. Even though they deny that they believe she's a goddess and deny worshiping her, they go, "You can deny it, but you actually show otherwise."

2:20 And secondly, because they think the gospel is solid as defined by Martin Luther, justified by faith alone apart from works. The fact that the Catholic Church does not accept that view of feday means they're preaching a false gospel. But if they think that faith in Jesus alone is enough to save, why don't they extend that same grace, so to speak, um, to Catholics and Orthodox who believe in Jesus? They go because you're adding to the finished work of Christ so that you're blaspheing him. So they're adding to the story to invalidate what you believe. What they're saying is you're when you say you believe in Christ, but then you have to maintain your righteousness, your justification by staying faithful, that means you're now

3:06 adding to what Christ did to save you by saying you need to do your part. And that is a false gospel. That's what they say. I'm not saying Didn't Jesus say that the only thing that you could uh if you're going solos scriptor, didn't Jesus say that the only thing you can't be forgiven for is blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Sure. Yes. But they say if you do not repent even of those sins that can be forgiven, then your sins will be held against you. In other words, the only sin that won't be forgiven is the Holy Spirit. But if you don't acknowledge those other sins that can be forgiven, you remain in your sin. I see. So that's the justification. That's their understanding. And I doesn't say, you know, they're right. Is

3:53 it okay? Steelman their position because I used to be a Protestant. Is it okay if I ask another question? Go ahead, brother. You can ask many you want. uh if somebody was uh determining between going to an Orthodox church and a Catholic church and having um issues with that decision. Um would you say that the nearest it happens to be a Byzantine Malikite church would be the best option of the bunch? Byzantine Malikite Catholic church. Yes. Um obviously I'm in the Catholic church. I'm Catholic and I love the Catholic Church, but I don't want my belief and my persuasion to be yours. I want it to be worth the Holy Spirit. So, repeat the first part. Catholic Orthodox. What was

4:38 that? I said if someone you said and I didn't get that part. If I was determining between going to a Catholic church or and when I say going to I mean bringing my family with me obviously. Um, would that be if I was determining between a Catholic church and an Orthodox church and then seeing, you know, having trouble because I'm seeing validity on both fronts, let's say. Oh, yeah. Would you say that that would be the best way to bridge the gap? No, I understood your question. Well, the the fact of the matter is going to a Byzantine Malite Catholic Church doesn't solve the fact that there's still differences between that and what we'd call Eastern Orthodoxy. Right. Right. So that still doesn't solve your dilemma. So you still have to then

5:25 wrestle with the tension. Do I agree with the orthodox on those major issues that led to schism filioquay and papacy or I disagree? So even if you go there, that doesn't solve the tension and the difference, right? You may just like the fact that it's more eastern looking and it looks more like an Eastern Orthodox church because with icons like you have the Eastern Catholic, right? But that doesn't solve the issues between them. It's you're putting a band-aid on a wound. So what I'm saying is it's simply covering up the fact that if you're struggling with the issue of the main

6:10 core doctrines beliefs that separate Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church which would be the papacy is the bishop of Rome the head of all other bishops. Yes. No. The filioquay. Does the spirit proceed from the father and son energetically or hypothetically? very highlevel metaphysical technical debates that average person like me gets lost. I was trying to listen to a session today by William my brother on it. I got to listen to it 50 million times before it sinks in. Going to a Byzantine Malikite Catholic Church won't solve it because Byzantine Malikite Catholic Church still believe in the primacy of the bishop of Rome. Now uh Mary. All right. Show just tell me in scripture where it's okay

6:57 to pray to Mary. All over scripture says it's okay to pray to Mary cuz does the Bible I must be missing it. I must be missing it. Well, if you talk over me then I wasn't trying to. I I said I just must be missing it. Buddy, listen to me. You You don't dictate how the scriptures communicate truth because I can play that game like Muslims do and say, "Show me where Jesus is. I am God." In those exact words. I wasn't playing a game. I'm not trying to take it easy. I'm not saying I'm not taking you at I'm not tacking you. Take it easy because you're saying show me where in scripture because what you're asking for is something saying ask Mary to pray for you. Well, number one, number one. Is there an example? Go ahead. Yeah, there's a lot of examples. I'm going to

7:43 get there. Let me make the case. Number one, the assumption is the Bible records everything the Christians said and did. You know that's not the case because the Bible says there are many things Paul did, Peter did, Jesus did not. Yes. Yes. Correct. So that means the Bible is not exhaustive. It doesn't tell you everything they said and did, every form of prayer they prayed, every practice they observed. So number one, the Bible is not written to give you an exhaustive list of every single thing they said and did or taught. That doesn't that's not how the Bible works. Number one. Correct. Number two, I'm gonna make my case because I'll answer. I promise you. Even the Bible you have

8:28 in your possession today did not exist between two covers. Some Christians had fewer books than others. Some had more. So even when you say, "Show me the Bible." If I was living in the first century, you couldn't ask me the question because I didn't have the New Testament. The books were different written at different times by different people. And no one group had all the books together because it took time for Christians to realize what the exact list of New Testament books happened to be. I understand all that. Okay, that's the second thing. Okay. So now thirdly, in light of that, the way I can arrive at knowing whether praying to Mary is something not sinful is not by

9:15 demanding. Show me exactly where it says pray to Mary because that doesn't work. The Bible is not written that way. What I need to establish is several facts. Fact number one, are the dead in Christ alive, perfected? And if so, are they aware of what takes place on earth? The answer is yes. That's the first fact. Second, and I'll show you the verses. I'm just trying to establish it. Second fact, does the Bible say we are to pray for one another and seek other Christians to pray for us? Yes. Third fact, does the Bible say just like you have church on earth, there's a church in heaven. The difference is that church in heaven, everyone there is

10:00 perfect, sinless, and their love is perfect. Yes. So now, let me show you number three. Is there a church in heaven? Here you go. Hebrews 12 22- 24. Okay, I'm going show you slowly, brother. Hebrews 12 22- 24. You ready? Go ahead. I want you up because I think you What are you reading? King James. Uh, that's what I read out of. Yes, sir. All right. I'm going to read the King James for you. I love it, too. It's a king of all translations, but I only read modern translations for the help of people who can't understand Elizabeth in English. Here it is. Hebrews 12:22-24. Watch. I'm going to read it. You can follow your Bible. I can read on the screen. I'll just say King James. Make it easier for you. But ye are come

10:47 unto Mount Si, unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn. So what's in heaven? Church. Oh, so they have a church in heaven. Yeah. With the body of Christ, but they're in heaven, right? Yeah. So what do people in church do? Do we not pray for one another and pray for those whom we love and pray for those who need God's salvation? Correct. Do we do that? We pray for each other here. Yes, sir. Yeah. No, but do you also pray for those whom you love and are lost or need your prayers? Yes. Those alive. Because you love them, right? I'm sorry. What? Because you love

11:34 them, right? Correct. So if now the church is in heaven and part of the church is to pray for those whom you love, do they stop loving people on earth? Of course not. So why would they stop praying for those whom they love, whom they know are on earth and need their prayers? They wouldn't. They wouldn't. They of course they wouldn't. And you answered your question in church. No. No. But but but that's but that's different than than than uh All spirits are alive whether they're alive in purgatory in hell or Yeah. But the ones in purgatory need you to pray them out. Whereas the ones in heaven don't need your prayers to pray them out.

12:20 I speak I'm speaking for me and a and a lot of people that struggle with the Catholics praying to Mary. It's not just Catholics. Orthodox pray and the early Christians all pray to Mary. Okay, I'll give you examples. We found a papyrus dated around 250 AD, a fragment that contains the oldest surviving prayer to Mary that's still prayed today by Orthodox and Catholic. Let me show it to you. Okay, so this is an ancient practice. In fact, we have writings, we have inscriptions where not only they asked Mary, they asked those who've died in Christ to pray for them on earth. This was a universal widespread practice of the very church that gave you the Bible that you read today. Here, let me show it to you. Here it is right here.

13:07 Here's the fragment. You see it here? You see the fragment? I see it. This is a fragment dated 250 AD, 3rd century. And it's it's a prayer in Greek. It's called Supraidium. The Greek is right here, right? Yes. See, I keep forgetting. I take your word. You can you can read it or whatever. I think here it is. I'm trying to do on the screen right here for everyone to see. I'm going to put it on the screen. I'm trying to find Joe Heshmire's blog. I don't know if he shut it down. Beneath your tenderness of heart, we take refuge, O bearer of God. Do not despise

13:53 our petitions amidst our troubles, but rescue us from dangers. Oh only pure one, only blessed one. Bear of God is a Greek word theotocos. Theotocos meaning godbear, mother of God. And here it is. Theotoi I'm trying to figure out this is uh is this a what's the why? It's not campy. We we put 10 the scene use flag neon ta nomini

14:39 tasmonas paradis in paras. I need glasses, guys. Anyway, don [Applause] a mini. All right. Theotoki. Here it is. Dated to 250 AD. I can't see the writing because I need glasses. 250 AD. So, did you hear it, man? Or you busy over there? I'm listening to you. I'm busy doing a

15:24 lot of multitasking, but I can hear you. I can hear you. Now, what else? What else objections you got? Cuz right here, early evidence for the fact that Christians pray to Mary and the saints. Okay. Well, I mean, for for a lot of Christians, including myself, that that wouldn't clear it up because, you know, the Bible speaking against Well, hold on, buddy. Did you know the the majority of Christians, there's over 1 billion Catholics? So, when you say for a lot of Christians, the majority of Christians are Catholics, Orthodox, and all of them have no problem with asking Mary to pray for them. So, who do you mean for a lot of Christians? uh the Catholic number say I guess let's say the ones that are against Catholics like Baptist a lot of

16:12 Baptists I didn't say I'm not speaking for all I'm speaking to the one I know but you're the minority I'm the what the minority you're the minority the majority of Christians largest group of Christians are Catholic over one billion and then you have Orthodox and Assyrian Eastern Orthodox or antorthodox Syrian church they're the majority of Christians and none of them have a problem with praying to Mary or the saints. It's a small segment of Christians that do. Okay? Right? So that's why his website is offline. That's why he doesn't have it anymore. Okay? So when you say a lot, who's a lot? The majority don't have problems. It's you guys that have the problems and impose it on the rest of us. I'm not imposing it on anyone. I'm

17:00 just trying to go by I'm just trying to go by what the the scripture teaches about uh praying to the dead or anything like that. I thought we just said they're not dead. Are you saying Jesus is wrong when he says they cannot even even every everybody everybody's spirit is alive but it's just where they're alive at? I'm sorry. What? Well, who says that because they're alive in heaven, they're dead? Jesus is in heaven. That means he's dead. No, Jesus is God. He's certainly not dead. Oh, but wait. You said because where they're at. So they're in heaven and they're more alive than you and I. They're perfected. What does location have to do with anything? Because Jesus right here says about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Luke 20 37:38. When the Sadducees like you

17:45 thought they're dead, meaning they cease to exist consciously. Look what he says to refute them. 20 37 38. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he's not a God of the dead, but of the living. For all live unto him. So, are they alive or dead, buddy? Spirits are alive. They're what? The spirits are alive. Yes. Yeah. But he didn't qualify saying spirits. He says they are alive. Okay. They are not dead. They are alive. He doesn't make the call. Obviously, their bodies in the dust, but in Oh, well, there's No, they're still living. They don't have their bodies, but they're still living. Tell me Tell me that verse again so I can write it down real quick. 20 37:38 right here. I read it for you.

18:32 Luke 20. Yeah, I heard you read it. I just want to write it down. 11-38. Okay. 27. Okay, I got it. So now my question to you is do you what do you do with Revelation 58 as well where now you have spirit creatures in heaven 24 elders four living creatures and here's what they have in their hands and I want to ask you why do they have it here 5'8 prayers to the saints why do they have it because notice they're doing two things they have harps so what do they do with the harps they sing right they play music with harps and sing and then they have golden vials full of orders meaning incense. So what do they do with those golden vials? They offer it to God. Right. Correct. But the odor is the prayers. Why are they offering

19:18 the prayers of the saints to God? It's right there. Revelation 58 so they be answered. But why would God have them present the prayers? That means if I present your prayer to God, that means I'm aware of your prayer. I can't present something I'm not aware of. Right? So that right there shows you they're aware of your prayers and God even used them to mediate those prayers. So what's the problem? Never never never never looked at it that way in in in that in that verse. That's why I asked you. I wasn't asking you to debate I wasn't asking you to debate you. No, I know that verse. Asking you to find out information. Shoot. Well, I think I'm taking time because I remember you, man. I just want you to get the Trinity right now. Here's

20:04 another one. Revelation 8 3 and five. I'm going to give you one more after this. And if that answer your questions, I'll move on. But here, Revelation 8 3-5. And another angel came and stood at the altar having a golden sensor, and there was given unto him much incense. Incense that he should offer it. Now, notice who's offering the incense. Okay. This is the one you're referring to, right? All right. But let me start from the beginning. Let's go from the beginning. This is the one. You ready? Yes, sir. All right. Here's what he's referring to. We're going to start at three. Then Yahweh said to Isaiah, "Go out now to meet Ahaz, you and your son, Shir Jashu,

20:50 at the end of the conduit of the upper pool to the highway of the of the Fuller's field." And say to him, "Take care and stay quiet. Have no fear and do not be faint-hearted because of these two stubs of smoldering firebrands and account of the burning anger of Razin and Haram and the son of Ramalia because Aram with Ephraim and the son of Ramalia has counseledled evil against you, saying, "Let us go up against Judah and terrorize it and make for ourselves a breach in its walls and set up the son of Tabir as king in the midst of it. Thus says Lord Yahweh, thus says Lord Yahweh, it shall not stand, nor shall it happen. For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Razin. Now, within another 65 years, Ephraim will be shattered. So, it is no longer a people. And the head of Ephraim

21:38 is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is a son of Ramalia. If you do not establish your faith in Yahweh, you will surely not be established. So, here's what they say. Then Yahweh spoke in saying, see, Isaiah is called Yahweh. Does that mean Isaiah is Yahweh? That's their objection, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Brother, this is the stupidest and weakest objection of all. Why? Because we already were told Isaiah is the one telling Ahaz, hear what the Lord Yahweh says. Mhm. So, no one would be stupid enough to assume that Isaiah is Yahweh who speaks because the context already showed you Isaiah is

22:25 telling him here's what Yahweh says to you. Yahweh says to you, this is not at all comparable to how the Old Testament speaks about the angel of the Lord and how it speaks about Jesus. This is desperate. Yeah. Because even if you go on, but said, "I will not ask. I will not test Yahweh." Then he said, "Listen now, oh house of David, is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men that you will try the patience of my God as well? Therefore, the Lord himself, the context makes it clear, Isaiah is talking as Yahweh's representative so that Isaiah can be then put in the background and then you can say Yahweh sata because

23:12 that's what Isaiah is saying. Hear what Yahweh says to you. Yeah. Yeah. How is this comparable to what the Old Testament says about the angel, what God says about the angel, what others say about the angel, and what God says about Jesus, and what others say about Jesus. It's not at all comparable. For example, just give you one example. Judges 13:21-22. Okay? Now, the angel of Yahweh did not appear to Monoah or his wife again. And then Emanoah knew that he was the angel of Yahweh. Okay. So he knew he was what? The angel of Yahweh. So why did he say we will surely die for you have seen God. So let's now say Manoah knew that this

24:00 was Isaiah the prophet of God. And then it says we will surely die for we've seen God. So let's change it. Monoah knew that he was seeing Isaiah the prophet Yahweh. And then Monoah said, "We will die for we've seen God." Yeah. Blasphemy. Did anyone say we're gonna die because we saw Isaiah and when we saw Isaiah, we saw God? No. So why is it when it says Manoah knew it was the angel he saw that he realized this angel was God that he saw? That doesn't work, buddy. Nice try though. Tell the unitarian.

24:46 Thank you. So I appreciate this honestly. So that helped you? Yep, it did. Thank you for torturing me, brother. Oh.