Ana Kasparian: Epstein Cover-Up, Israel Strikes Gaza Church, & the Great American Political Shift

0:00 So, normally when I do an unconventional interview with like Putin or the president of Iran, people get mad and they ask, you know, why are you talking to him? This is one of those very rare, maybe unique circumstances where people are going to ask you why you talking to him? Yeah. And people are going to get mad. People are going to get very angry. I know. Um, and your producers had been reaching out trying to get me to talk to you for at least a year and a half. And it my feelings toward coming on your show went from I would never in a million years to kind of giving myself the opportunity to listen to your podcast to figure out who you really are because of course I had

0:45 very strong thoughts about who you are. Really? Yeah. But I realized that it was based on clips that I would watch of you that had gone viral and they had gone viral because they were offensive or you had said something that was viral like syphilis is viral that I mean pretty much I mean you should think of it that way because it was mostly um painting you in a very negative light. And to be sure, you and I have some pretty deep disagreements, but I think that some

1:31 of what you've been talking about lately like hits at the heart of what I care most about, and that's the importance of this country representing the American people. the importance of the United States being a sovereign country that has politicians and a government that prioritizes the American people as opposed to a foreign government. And speaking out the way you've been speaking out about some of these issues um takes a lot of courage because it goes against the grain and it goes against I mean decades of propaganda and conditioning in American media. And so to me, that commonality that you and I share made me a lot more open-minded to

2:17 coming on this show because I do think that Americans from across the political spectrum need to find areas of agreement, especially as it pertains to making this country better so we can apply appropriate pressure on our politicians and get them to represent us regardless of the corrupt corruption regardless of the influence of foreign governments. At the end of the day, these politicians are nothing if it isn't um if if it weren't for the American people, right? So, like right now, what's really interesting is in Congress, it appears that there's this bipartisan effort to force a vote uh to release the Epstein files. Yes. And the only reason why

3:03 that's happening is because there's a very loud and aggressive portion of the MAGA base that's demanding it and they're not letting it go. And I commend them because I agree with them. I think we need transparency. We need to know whether or not we literally have members in our government or influential people, you know, in the periphery of our government who are pedophiles. I want to know. I think that's fair. Yeah. It's interesting. um the framework that you laid out, the government of any of any country ought to be sovereign, which is to say it should make most of its big decisions on the basis of what's good for the people that it represents. And it's bad when foreign countries control your country. Mhm. Those are not those don't strike me as hateful statements

3:49 at all. Those aren't expressions of animus against anybody, are they? I I don't think they're hateful statements at all. I'm an American. I love this country. I love the people in this country and I don't want to live in this uh ridiculous like perversion of the American government where they pretend to represent us but in reality Americans are on the back burner. Our tax dollars are being taken from us not to help Americans who need help but to give all sorts of subsidies to private industries that are already doing really well. Okay, they don't need extra subsidies or tax cuts or things like that. But in addition to that, all the foreign aid that we're pumping into the Middle East, Israel, right? Oftentimes when we talk about foreign aid that goes to Israel, at this point,

4:36 I believe it's about what $4 billion a year on top of all of the military aid that we've been pumping into Israel over the last 2 years. I mean, it's unacceptable to me that we're doing that. And in the backdrop of that, you have the United States Congress cutting $1.1 trillion dollars to Medicaid. Really, that's the problem. That's where we need to cut funding from, by the way, also cutting funding to food assistance. How do you justify sending tens of billions of dollars to Israel in the last two years alone while targeting cuts to Medicaid and food stamps? I It makes me beyond angry. I think it's so unbelievably unjust. And if you speak out about it the way I'm doing right now, I'm sorry, I'm getting like kind of aggressive. If you speak out

5:24 about it like I am right now, people try to smear you as an anti-semite. And you know what? I'm not an anti-semite. I know what's in my heart. And I'm not going to let those smears stop me from saying what I know is correct and what's morally just. Is it possible that um people are slandered in order to prevent conversations like this from happening in the first place? So you said I was hesitant to come on the show. Um, I mean, the reason we wanted to book you and a bunch of people who work for me had the same feeling, uh, is that is what you just said, like we can disagree on all kinds of things, but if the fundamental orientation is the US government ought to make a good faith effort to improve the lives of Americans, that's not a partisan statement. That's not a crazy out there

6:14 sentiment at all. And we saw that it's like, oh, yeah. And then you're like, yeah, but he's a Nazi. I can't do the Nazi show. I mean, so you sort of want like I have all kinds of stupid opinions. I've said all kinds of stupid things. I've had ugly opinions in the past. I'm not defending every opinion I have had or even currently have. I'm merely saying to reduce someone to a caricature is a kind of tactic to prevent anyone from having a like a real conversation with the person. It's meant to discredit. And yeah, you're right. It's meant to stop these types of conversations from happening. Now, you are very conservative. I'm not very conservative. I have some views that lean more conservative than progressives feel comfortable with and that's okay. But at the end

7:02 of the day, what drives my politics is this desire for everyone to thrive economically. And you know, you've been speaking out about that. Well, how is that? So, what is the different If I could I mean, I would hope that would be like everyone's desire. It's not. It's not right at all. But what what does it mean to be cons not to get too philosophical here, but what what does it mean to be conservative or liberal like at this point? Well, I I don't think that the political labels that we currently have in this country make much sense anymore to be honest with you. So, but I I'm talking about like traditional conservatism. You know, I I believe in reproductive rights to a point. You know, I know that you're anti-abortion big time. Yeah. So, like that's a disagreement we have and I'm not at all going to like come on this show and capitulate on my beliefs, right?

7:49 But I think that those are important issues. I'm not minimizing them, right? But I feel that we can't even really engage in a real debate about policy or specific issues unless we know we have a sovereign we're living in a sovereign country and we have a government that actually has interest in representing us, right? Because it doesn't it doesn't really matter otherwise, right? If you know people keep voting for different things but get the same result. Exactly. Then the system is fake and that's the point where people start to go crazy and do radical violent things which I'm completely opposed to. I just want to say that at the outset. I hate violent radicalism more than anything. And I feel like that's the result of people realizing their system is fake. So you have to make it kind of real. You're you're right about that. And you know, we've been seeing more

8:38 and more political violence in this country and it's terrifying. I mean, I'm not justifying it, but I can explain why it's happening, you know, and I don't want things to devolve further. And here's the other reason why I decided to come. So, I knew that you moved here. You moved to like a rural part of the country. And I live in a big city. And I think that living in a big city and spending most of your time in a big city kind of blinds you to the rest of America. A lot of Americans live in rural parts of the country. And I want the opportunity to like speak to them, like get to know them, understand where their hearts and their minds are at. And so I saw it as an opportunity to like expose myself to people that I otherwise wouldn't get an opportunity to speak to.

9:23 And um you know you I think you've hired like drivers to bring people you know to where you're at from the airport. Yes. Yeah. The airport's very far. But um I love that because they're not like you know they're not Uber drivers. They're like unemployed loggers and stuff. No, but they are. And I I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed having conversations with them. So uh one of the drivers who picked me up, Jen, she mentioned the big beautiful bill that just passed. And you know, I can tell she identifies as Republican. And she wasn't happy with that bill. And I suspected that most ordinary workingclass Americans, whether they're Democrats or Republicans, are not happy with that bill. You know, the $1.1 trillion in cuts to Medicaid. That's what she brought up. She brought that up. And I thought that was really fascinating. Now, if you talk to someone who

10:11 identifies as a liberal Democrat, they'll probably think, "Oh, these Republican voters, they're so greedy. All they want is tax cuts. They want to cut the social safety net. But no, actually when it comes to ordinary people, there's a lot of agreement. A lot of agreement. A lot of people are suffering right now. And you know, you have all these different industries, especially you know, beginning in the '9s offshoring, you know, all these jobs that have been destroyed. I mean, most people work in the service sector at this point and manufacturing jobs are gone. I think that's part of the reason why Donald Trump has been so appealing to the MAGA base without question. Right. And so I I want ordinary people to just consider the contradiction here. So

11:00 if you're a liberal Democrat and you're under the assumption that Republican voters are just greedy and they want to cut the social safety net, why would they love Trump so much who ran as a as an economic populist? Now, I don't think that Trump has carried out his promises because of well, there's a lot of different examples I can cite, but the most recent is the so-called big beautiful bill. Yeah, there are um some provisions in there, no tax on tips. It's going to be means tested and it also expires in four years, whereas the tax benefits that disproportionately benefit the wealthy are permanent. uh the no tax on, you know, the elderly or social security that also will expire and it's up to a certain amount. I think it's like $6,000 if I'm not mistaken. Um

11:46 the child tax credit I think was just peanuts compared to what I think this country could afford in helping families. You want to encourage people to have kids. Yeah. Okay. Best way to do it is to create an economic situation where couples feel comfortable bringing life into this world. Agree. You know, um and then no tax on overtime. That's another example that's also means tested and that's a provision that will expire in 2028. It's just interesting to see which provisions are permanent and which are set to expire in four years when you know Trump is done with his term. So if you really want to represent the working class, you got to put your money where your mouth is. And I haven't really seen it to the extent that Trump claimed he was going to help the working class in this country. Interesting. Yeah. Here's a revealing and unpleasant fact.

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13:22 the story tells a lesson and it asks an obvious question. Why should you rely on untrustworthy foreign beef to feed your nation? The answer is that you shouldn't rely on it. If you agree, we hope you'll support Merryweather Farms. In a time when so many are selling out, they have the courage to stand up for what is right. And all of their meat comes from this country, the United States. We know cuz we eat it every single day. Visit Merryweather Farms, mfarmms.com/tucker. Use the code Tucker for 15% off your first order. Real meat, real values, and it's delicious. So when did you like have your views changed? I have some views that have definitely changed.

14:08 Yeah. I wouldn't say that I like swung from far left to far right. I don't even know what that means actually. I mean I I don't think I can answer the question so I don't know why I'm asking it of you, but like what do the terms mean now? And um I for whatever it's worth I've settled on people who are honest, people who lie, right? And I that that's like the only division. maybe have the honest party, the liar party or something, you know, in the future. But um but clearly you've started thinking things or thinking through things that you hadn't before. And God bless you. That's like the greatest privilege of adulthood. You get to think for yourself. It's happened to me a lot. But how did that start? Well, I mean, it started with I I it started with like personal

14:57 experiences and it often does, right? Like often your policy preferences will slap you in the face and then you're like, "Oh, I don't like that." You know, you know, cuz sometimes there are unintended consequences. I'll give you a specific example. So, I was very much supportive of the defund the police movement in 2020 and it was because, you know, you see this video of a man like dying on camera with a police officer refusing to like, you know, ease up on him and it really made me angry. I felt that it was whatever you think about George Floyd, I don't care, right? Like I what was happening in that moment in that video was so disgusting to me and so unjust. And so I was like

15:45 no we I totally bought the narrative that it's not actually about like abolishing police. It's about you know taking some of that funding and investing in social services or in social workers so social workers respond to certain calls instead of the police. um that actually has ended up being pretty disastrous in California in Los Angeles in particular because I've seen it firsthand. And you're from there? I'm from there. My my best friend since childhood, uh she's a social worker herself. Um, and I've talked to other social workers about what their experience has been like, and they're like, I actually interviewed one for a piece I wrote for Real Clear Investigations, and she told me, "Look, um, it hasn't really worked out the way people have thought it would

16:32 work out. Often times, we'll go to a call and it's supposed to be a non-violent person or yeah, a non-violent call. someone's having a mental health episode, but they'll show up and oftentimes it'll be someone who does have a weapon. It's not a gun, but it's maybe a a knife or and they feel threatened. So, they have no choice but to call the police. And so in 2021, the Los Angeles City Council, you know, was inspired by BLM and they decided to take $150 million away from the LAPD's budget and instead invest it in other services. It actually ended up being even more c We're spending more on police, more on the LAPD than we ever have, like record amounts. And the reason why is

17:25 because you have to really ask yourself before you make these decisions. Okay, do we need this many officers? Let's compare Los Angeles to other huge cities. What's the police officer or sworn officer to citizen ratio? And in LA, it's always been historically lower, much lower than other major cities. So, um, at the peak of the LAPD and the number of sworn officers in the LAPD, we had about 10,000 after the cuts and after all the difficulty in recruiting new sworn officers cuz people don't want to be police officers anymore for understandable reasons. It's not a desirable job when you have people constantly, you know, talking about how terrible cops are. So now we have about

18:11 um 8,500 and as a result the remaining sworn officers are working insane overtime. Like crazy. Like we have one police officer in the LAPD. I think his name is Nathan Corey. He made $600,000 one year because of police overtime. So right now taxpayers in Los Angeles 600,000. Yes. Yes. So right now taxpayers in LA are kind of confronted with this situation where they're paying far more for less as it pertains to policing since there is a shortage. There's longer wait times if you call 911 and you need help. Um some people complain that they'll call and if it's not like let's say someone was the victim of a burglary, obviously you're not in imminent danger. So,

19:00 they'll call the cops and hope that someone will show up, you know, take fingerprints and maybe find who burglarized them. They never do, but they don't show up for hours and people get really upset and they're like, "Why is this happening?" And what's really interesting is I try to explain why it's happening and I get called all sorts of names for doing it, but I don't care. The truth is the truth. Wait, wait. What do you I mean, okay, first of all, why are you one of the only people willing to admit you were wrong about defund the police? Like, why were you willing to say, again, bless you, it's the beginning of growth, but um I've done it myself many times, but why were you willing to admit that? Because at the core of who I am, I think as a journalist, you know, I I I

19:48 didn't enter this line of work to be a mouthpiece for anyone. I really care about the truth. And I feel that if you want to live in a democracy, you have to make sure that people are getting accurate information to make the right decisions for themselves once they're casting a ballot. And so I felt angry because I felt misled by the media. Yep. And now, you know, it was partly my fault too because I was in a bubble and I was only getting one side of every story. And even if I agree with that side, I should at least hear what the opposing argument is. And I wasn't going out of my way to do that before. Now I do. And so I see things as far more complex and nuanced.

20:34 And it's hard to make an argument that's going to appease any audience at this point because I think a lot of Americans have been conditioned to be partisan and prioritize partisanship before truth. And I think truth is what will set us free. Genuinely, truth will help us ensure that we have a better government. And I'm sorry, one side or the other does not have a monopoly on the truth. They just don't. And one side might get something right one time, the other side might have a good point when it comes to a different issue. And I think we just need to be open-minded. And more importantly, we need to have conversations with people because if you just rely on what the media is saying about a particular political figure or a particular media figure, why are you letting them

21:24 tell you what to think about individuals? Why don't you actually do a little bit of digging or have these conversations yourself and try to figure out who these people really are? You know, like the the speech you gave at Turning Point. I you said a few things in there that I might not agree with, but like the overall message was so courageous and I never thought in a million years I would hear it at a conservative conference. Never. It's just interesting. Well, I mean, you know, the truth is wherever it is and you you try to recognize it. But I hope I'm going to give you my text and I want you to text me if you will criticism of what you're saying now. Okay. Because I want to keep a list of people who are offended by what you're saying just in my head. Like, how could anyone be offended by what you're saying now? Yeah. Well, I I it might not be I mean,

22:15 you're not the criminal here. Yeah. Well, let me just be honest with you. I I think that most people who are going to attack me aren't even going to listen to this interview. It's just the fact that we're having a conversation with each other. Um, but I take offense to people trying to police who I can talk to. In fact, the more they try to police me, the more I want to talk to the person they forbid me to speak to. Honestly, I've always been like that. I've been like that since I was a kid. My mom knows it better than anyone. I'm just a little bit rebellious and I don't like to be told what to do. I hate it. And what to think. Yeah. And who you can talk to? I mean, that's like the most that's a core decision. Who do I associate with? Yeah. Who are my friends? Who am I having dinner with? Who do I marry? I mean, if you allow other people to make those decisions

23:02 for you, you're not free. No, you're not. And oh my god, what a terrible career path to be a journalist who doesn't get to have conversations like with people that they're curious. I'm curious about you. I am. You were a neocon. Yeah, I was. I became hard to believe that. It is hard to believe that. I became politicized in the leadup to the Iraq invasion in 2003. Yes. I I was in high school and I remember in 2002 um I went to like a hippie, you know, magnet school and we had peace day annually and I remember giving a speech in 2002 uh to make the case against the preemptive war in Iraq and I remember you you're going to laugh at this. I remember in English class,

23:50 we were reading a play, The Glass Managerie, which I found um deeply boring. And I had like a Yeah. I had a cutout of a New York Times article in which Bill Crystal was one of the people the reporter interviewed. And you know, Bill Crystal loves war. Loves war, hardcore neocon. And I just remember like just sitting in that English class reading his quotes and seething over it and thinking to myself, I can't wait to one day get an opportunity to like confront him. And I actually did get that opportunity. It wasn't about war, but it was a Politicon panel debate about healthcare. And um you know, I kind of brought up the fact that Israel has universal healthcare and Americans don't. What did he say? Um he was so unprepared. There's like a picture of him like like he has

24:37 index cards like someone wrote notes down for him and he's just like fumbling with the index cards. He doesn't know what to do. And then once the the whole panel discussion was over. Um someone who was with me overheard him say, "Damn it, she came prepared." Something along those lines. Yeah. It's it's arrogance. It's people who've been told since they were small that they're brilliant. Mhm. You know, Bill Crystal, Ted Cruz. I mean, it does distort you and it actually makes you dumb paradoxically over time. Definitely. Yeah. never pressed. Got to stay humble. I completely agree with that. It's not hard for me. My circumstance. You probably heard about eight sleep. Lots of people are talking about it. It is a company with one mission, improving your sleep, and it's changing the way people do that, the way they get a good night's rest. We just got word

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26:09 here will tell you because they all use it that there's no better way to be alert, productive, and happy than by sleeping well. And eight really does help. Visit eightleep.com/tucker. Use the code Tucker to get 350 bucks off your Pod 5 Ultra. If you don't like it, you return it within a month. That won't happen. We think you'll love it, but you can if you want. 8.com/tucker. Okay. So, you I I just wanted to emphasize that point. You would you came to the conclusion that you were wrong and you said so out loud. And to me, that's the acid test. Is someone honest? I don't know. Will that person admit being wrong? That's when we know. Yeah, totally. And um Okay, so you live in the same place. That's also hugely helpful because you can see it over time. The same

26:57 place, you know, Ventura Boulevard, you've lived near it your whole life, right? So, what did you start to notice? Like, what is it like? What are the effects? Well, I started noticing that homelessness really exploded in Los Angeles. Like, it's always been a problem in LA. Yeah. But it now touches every like square mile of of that county and it's just gotten during CO it was unbelievably bad and I just felt like it was inhumane seeing what was going on and it wasn't just that there were a lot of homeless people it was that there were a lot of homeless people with like severe severe like mental health issues and they're they can't make decisions for themselves. They're like

27:43 literally I can't tell you how many times on my way to work on the freeway. I almost hit a mentally ill homeless person who's on the freeway 405. Uh yes. Yes. And I can't imagine what I would go through um for the rest of my life if I ever hit someone with my car, you know? But like why are we living in a society that like thinks that this is okay? This is not okay. This is not okay. the um drug addiction, not just in LA, all across the country. Has there been any effort to do anything about this? Zero. Zero. And it makes me really angry. The Sacklers are still billionaires. Yep. Exactly. And it just I find it to be You want to talk about treason? Politicians who let this kind of stuff happen to the Americans they're supposed to represent. And people mistake

28:29 that as me being antihomeless. No. No. The people who defend what's happening right now, they're antihomeless. Seven people died of drug overdose on the same corner near where I live in a two week span. Seven people, same corner. That wasn't a big scandal. The city council member who represents my district wasn't asked about it. She didn't have to defend herself. She's one of these uh city council members who keeps voting on the dumbest policies that do nothing to actually help these people, but somehow justifies the continuation of the same failed policies that have led to all of these overdose deaths, all of these people with mental health issues not getting the help that they need. It's awful. The whole situation is awful. I mean, I lived in LA as a child. I've worked there on and

29:17 off my whole life. I really love Los Angeles. I'll admit that. Um, I just love it. It's just a truly American city. The architecture is it's beautiful. Unique to LA or was. It's just an amazing It's what a an ambitious, hopeful, affluent country builds when they get to the end of the continent. Yeah. You know, it's like, wow, there's nowhere else to go. Let's build something amazing. And they built Los Angeles. And I just I've always loved it in my heart. So, I go back there. I'm going back next month and I'm shocked by it. Like, I can't even believe it. at the encampment outside the veterans building in Brentwood. I'm like, what is going on here? And no one ever says anything. Well, but I don't live there. You tell me. Do people talk about this a lot? They talk about it privately, but it's really interesting because while there's this openness in regard to

30:07 the failed policies in private discussions, no one wants to say anything publicly because you'll get the kind of treatment I've gotten. The people are dying on the street. Seven people at one intersection. Yep. seven people, Americans. And that's like verboden to talk about. How? Why? Oh, you're stigmatizing your unhoused neighbors. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that statement. You're stigmatizing your un It's like, no, they're dead. And I feel bad about it. I Yeah. No, I'm stigmatizing the very politicians who think that this situation is okay. The same politicians who took our tax dollars, 24 billion dollars worth of California's taxpayer money, okay, squandered it by funneling it to these NOS and nonprofits that are run by their friends. Oh,

30:53 of course. They fattened up their pockets. They didn't do anything to actually help those people. Nothing. So, when you say that at dinner, Yeah. What's that like? I mean, again, I don't have dinner with idiots, okay? So, I'm not going to have dinner with someone who's like, "No, I think we should keep stealing money from taxpayers in the highest tax state in the country." No, I I'm not interested in that. But when I do have dinner with my friends or with, you know, acquaint acquaintances or even like people that I just met, but you know, for what whatever reason, our paths crossed and we're having dinner. They all agree with me. You know, most people agree with me. And I don't think what I'm saying is at all offensive, which is why I keep saying it. I'm not going to stop saying it just because some idiots are going to try to smear me for doing

31:41 it. No, I don't care. Like it these issues go way beyond me. You get what I'm saying? Well, not only is it not offensive, it's pro-life in the truest sense. It's prohuman dignity. You don't want seven people to die in an intersection. You're shocked. Yeah. And horrified and saddened by it. And that's not shameful. that that's evidence of of decency and compassion. I I don't understand how that just got inverted. You know, I don't want to go back to the days where we were criminalizing people who were suffering from drug addiction, right? But what we're doing now is, I think, far worse. Oh, of course it is. You know, because at least if someone was using publicly, which by the way, right now happens all the time. You see people It's It's really devastating. Like you see people

32:29 smoking meth publicly. You see people Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Um you see, you know, do you know what the fentilene is? Yeah, I've seen. Yeah. It's all over Ventura Boulevard at night and it's I don't know. Can you describe it for people who don't know what you're talking about? It's basically fentinyl. Um I guess it does something to your body where after you take it, like if you see someone who's literally standing, but they're like hunched over like folded over like a scarecrow. Yeah. Exactly. um they're on fentinyl. That's what fentinyl does to their body. And I I I never saw that once until recently. And now it's just all over Ventura Boulevard um in the San Frernando Valley at night specifically. You don't see it in the daytime. And it's the most heartbreaking thing ever. Um these

33:15 people are they're dying. Very likely they're going to die. Someone's child. Yeah. Yeah. And no one cares. No one cares. I can't tell you how many times people just kind of like you'll see videos of this online. People will have to walk over a guy who looks like he might be dead sleeping on the sidewalk, you know, like it's it's made us almost numb because it's so it's so much of our lives now. Like it's it's a regular occurrence. So when it's a regular occurrence, it becomes normalized. And I it degrades everyone. Exactly. And I'm worried that since it's so normalized, nothing's going to be done about it. And yes, I just find it immoral and I find that it's wrong

34:04 and I'm disgusted with our politicians. I don't think I could have put it better. I every word you said I agree with passionately and I don't know how this wound up a partisan issue at all. And I it's I think it's because it's a Trump era. Yeah. Trump offends the sensitivities and sensibilities of self-identified liberal Democrats so much that they think they have to like automatically take the opposite stance of what a conservative would say or what a Trump supporter would say. But I that's why I want people to start talking again. Yes. and not make Donald Trump like the nucleus of our politics because I think that you know again on a lot of the important issues there's a lot of

34:51 agreement among voters. They just have to allow themselves to think for themselves. Think I would say the most important issues. I mean if you've got seven people dying in one intersection in Los Angeles you're not going to tell me that Iran is a greater threat to my country than that. I can't think of a greater threat to my country than that. actually. And so, and I don't have any idea why that's partisan. I I'm interested in the governor. I know the governor of the state. Um, he's got some I know Gavin Newsome, he's got some talent, I think, and uh charming for sure, but like what is going on? Is he aware of that? I've asked him and I You really find him charming? Well, in a kind of reptilian way. I mean, charming in the sense that um his whole life is devoted to

35:39 winning people over, you know, kind of like Bill Clinton was any I think he's good at it, but I also think someone said to me the other day, Nome could pass a lie detector test on any saying anything like there's a coldness inside that he's a sociopath. I think I think he's a snake oil salesman. I think he's a liar and I think that he destroyed the state of California. Full stop. I've got no love for Gavin Newsome. I think that people tend to fall for appearances and he's for whatever reason people think that he's attractive or something. I don't find him attractive because I know who he is and what he's done. Um he has shafted Californians who have lost everything in wildfires. Um the fire in Paradise, California was absolutely devastating. an entire community

36:29 burnt down as the result of PG&E, Pacific Gas, uh, and Electric, that's the utility company, refusing to upgrade their aging equipment. Their equipment is over a hundred years old. And so what started that fire was this metal hook that had eroded to the point where it broke. Power lines come crashing down onto dry brush. It sparks a fire and destroys an entire community. Okay. So, you would want PG&E to suffer some consequences for that, right? I think. Well, Newsome bailed him out because it's one of his uh biggest donors. He recently in an interview, I can't remember, he's been doing these like podcast interviews to kind of rebrand himself as like sort of common

37:16 sense guy. I've I've turned it down. Yeah. Don't fall for it because it's total BS. But, you know, he said something along the lines of, "Oh, you know, I take personal accountability. I made a big mistake by getting caught. You know, I was at the French uh laundry. It's like some ritzy fancy restaurant." During co after I told Californians, you know, don't get together with family members during the holidays. It's very dangerous. Whatever. He said that he was having dinner with friends. It was his friend's birthday. No, no, no. He was having dinner with his donors. So even in the context where he's pretending to take accountability, he's lying straight to everyone's face. And I can't stand it. I really can't. I want au I want real authenticity. I want

38:02 real accountability. I want politicians who are willing to see that the policies they advocated for aren't working quite as they intended and they're willing to recalibrate, admit that maybe they got something wrong. Of course, I want humility. I want this country to improve for the people in this country. And unless we are willing to be honest, unless we're willing to tell the people trying to smear us, to silence us, that they can f off, nothing's going to improve. Everything's going to keep going down. Everything is going to continue devolving. In my lifetime, this country has only gotten worse, not better. And it's going to keep going in that direction. And I want that paradigm to shift. I want it to change. Why do people disagree with that, do you think? I don't know. I really I I I think there's something psychological about it. I think

38:54 that we've been conditioned to think of politics as black and white, good and bad. But I think it's more complicated than that. I think most Americans are good people who want good things for everyone. But I think the media kind of conditions us to hate the other side, whatever the other side really is, you know. Um I certainly had those feelings and things are different today compared to when I became politicized during the Bush era. Yes. I feel like during the Bush era, it was a little easier to see good and bad, right? So for instance, even among Republican voters, I think people had woken up to the fact that the neoconservatives had dragged us into wars

39:41 uh that we shouldn't have been fighting, that a lot of people, Americans and civilians in these countries we were invading were suffering as a result of this ideology. Um but things have gotten a little more fractured. I think within the parties, there's like multiple parties. You get what I'm saying? I do. But when it comes to the two establishments, the Democratic establishment, the Republican establishment, there's a lot of similarities between the two. They're in alignment. Exactly. On the on the big issues that matter. War and the economy. War in the economy, the biggest issues. 100%. They love They love to like distract us with shiny things. Yeah. Have a race war. Totally. 100%. All these like social issues, by the way, social issues are important. And I'm not minimizing them, but the way that they're framed by the establishment, I think,

40:27 is interesting because it's intentionally meant to get us to fight each other constantly, of course, instead of considering what the big issues are and how we might actually agree on those big issues, what we can do to work together to again apply pressure to politicians to demand that they represent us instead of their donors, instead of moneyed interests, instead of a foreign government. So I think people are waking up for the first time. I'm a little bit excited because you know the kind of speech that you gave wouldn't have happened 5 years ago. No, 10 years ago. No, I think that's that's right. And I wouldn't have though I I'm just struck by how normal and non-threatening and non-hateful and just basic most people's views are,

41:15 including mine. I don't have any complicated views about anything. not a very deep person at all. And I don't know why we've all internalized this shame that like some things must not be said. And it's like why? I don't I don't hate anybody. And in fact, I'm on guard against that. I'm I refuse to because of my religious beliefs. It's like I'm not hating anybody period, but I'm also not going to be shamed into like ignoring obvious stuff. None of us is paying very close attention during the summer. The news cycle calms down. Families travel. People are relaxed. You're at the beach. It's all great except the people in Washington never stop. It gives them a chance to advance their agenda without you noticing because you're on vacation. That means new regulations, more censorship, the continued erosion of the Bill of Rights, the values that built

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42:50 Shopbeam.com/tucker up to 40% off. Can I ask you something real quick? So, I heard that speech and by the time I finished listening to it, I thought to myself, he's going to run for president. That was a presidential speech. Really? Yeah. No, that's literally the last thing on my mind. Like I would never do that. Uh, no. I mean, unless I was like told by a higher power or something, but no, I I don't think I'm suited for that. I of course I don't want that. I have a lot of happiness and balance in my life. I have a huge family. I'm the oldest male in that family, so I feel like that I have a lot of things I'm paying attention to. Um, I have dogs who I really love. So, no,

43:35 like nothing about that is appealing at all. And I would never I've never had any political ambition of any kind and I have even less now. I mean I I've known a lot of people who have had that job and it's just it's really hard. Oh, I would never want it. I would never want it. Are you kidding me? No. And also the idea that like out of 350 million people, I'm the most qualified to lead. Well, there's plenty of people who think that. I don't think that. Yeah. No. And I mean think that about themselves obviously. I do not think that. Yeah. Like Ted Cruz thinks that. Yeah. Well, exactly. And it's just sad. and they're compensating for something. Some of them, I guess, and not only be mean, but I don't I'm not compensating for anything. So, I have no interest. But, but here's my question. So, you said the media are a huge part of this, which is undoubtedly true. I've been in the media for 35 years. I know everyone in the media pretty

44:24 much. There are some mostly they're not evil. They're just kind of dumb. Okay, there are some evil people. I could name them like Joe Scarbo or something, you know, who's like obviously really bad, but most people are not. But they go along with this and the question is why? And one of the reasons is because they don't want to alienate their audiences. You've been you are on one of the biggest maybe the biggest certainly one of the biggest liberal podcast progressive podcast the Young Turks you've been there for almost 20 years. I was amazed to find that out last night at dinner 18 years. I don't know how old you are but I was shocked by that. But and it's one of the biggest and you are one of the biggest and maybe our audience doesn't know this because they don't watch liberal podcasts but you're one of the biggest. So you start saying stuff like this

45:09 you're going to like Yeah. lose audience. You're going to lose money like actual money. Yep. Has that happened? Do you worry about that happening? Uh yeah that's happened. Um, let me just say that for whatever anyone might think about Jen Uger, who's the founder and CEO of the Young Turks, you know, he's he's a very like he's he's sometimes brash, combative, loud, and that turns people off. And I get that they might not agree with his politics, but I just want to talk about who he is as a person. Because if it weren't for Jenk, I wouldn't have the confidence to publicly admit I'm wrong or the confidence to be genuine and honest about what I really think because he provides a platform for you to actually say what you think and not get punished for it if it hurts

45:56 the business and it did hurt the business. Um yeah, so we lost a portion of our audience for sure. Um I based on what you said based on what I said and more importantly say that alienated people I mean okay I would say that the straw that broke the camel's back was I agreed to go talk to Glenn Beck. He invited me to go on his podcast. You know I obviously have disagreements with Glenn Beck but I was actually shocked at how much we agreed on. You know we talked about war. We talked about all sorts of things and there were areas of agreement. It was a pleasant conversation, but I didn't capitulate my values at all. Just because I'm talking to him doesn't mean I've done anything wrong. My views are my views, his views are his views. We had a conversation. Well,

46:43 I come home thinking nothing of it. And uh one of our employees uh someone who's a contributor to TYT or was a contributor to TYT decided to take that as an opportunity to make a big spectacle about the fact that he's quitting because I decided to speak to Glenn Beck who's like a threat to black bodies or something. I don't know. But he just it was Is Glen Beck a threat to black bodies? I have no idea. Is he I mean I didn't get that. I I don't think Glenn Beck's much of a threat to anyone to be honest with you. He might have some ideas people don't like, but okay. Um, but it was nothing that you specifically said. It wasn't like No, nothing that I said. I mean, no one was citing anything I said during that interview that upset them that that was so offensive that

47:29 it was worthy of like publicly condemning me and making a big spectacle about how I can't work here because of Anna and she spoke to this dangerous dangerous man. Did Beck say anything like so over the top that you were supposed to respond to it or something? No, I No, I mean Glenn Beck a pretty moderate guy actually. I mean, I don't I mean, he might have some views that aren't moderate, but we didn't talk about any of those things. Like, the conversation was really not offensive at all in my opinion. And but they didn't cite anything. He didn't like endorse Hitler or anything. It was just the fact that I spoke to him. But, you know, unfortunately, you know, when you have someone make a public spectacle about quitting and making it seem as though I I had done something so wrong,

48:14 it signaled to a portion of our audience like, "Oh, maybe Anna isn't who she says she is. Maybe Anna is like a secret like far right winger or a Nazi or I don't know." How long had you been at the show at this point? Um, 17 and a half years. It wasn't That's deep cover. So, you've been a secret Nazi for 17 and a half years. Yeah, I'm really good at You're playing the long game, baby. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, I'm sorry. Let me let me just say let me just say this. I started working like, as you mentioned, I've been there for 18 years. Started working there in 2007. Okay. Um, when TYT was basically a startup that no one knew about, the revenue for TYT at the time came from Air America. Air America had gone bankrupt a few months after I started working

49:00 for them. And Jenkuger is amazing because he's he's like, I'm going to make it work. I'm going to find a way to keep this company afloat. And he did to his credit. But I can't even explain to you how much of a grind it was building TYT. It was a grind. Long hours, like blood, sweat, and tears. But we believed in it and we loved it. And I actually have like great memories of those years. We barely made any money at all, but we believed in what we were doing. And there was something really exciting about that. I went through all that. I helped build what TYT is today. And the audacity, the audacity of anyone coming in as a contributor or anything else to

49:46 tell me who I can and can't talk to is that's offensive. That's offensive. Okay. I earned this. You're not going to come into my house and tell me what my beliefs should be, who I should talk to. F off. Good. Good. Good riddance. Go. Go. I'm not going to be censored by anyone. Not my audience. No one on the right. I don't care. I don't care. So, sometimes when people sell products on TV, I love this product. I use this product. There's the question in the mind of the viewer, does this guy really use the product? Does he really love the product? Would you keep the product at home? Ask my dogs. Yes. Now, we are in a garage. Uh, I'm not going to tell you where it is because again, this is prepping, but this is my garage. There's a gun safe. And this is a part of my stockpile of

50:36 ready hour. Completely real. The second I put it here, the second Ready Hour sent it to me, I felt peace of mind. Um, because no matter what happens, we're not going hungry in my house. I moved a lot of fishing gear out of the way to keep it in my garage. And ever since it's been here, I have felt the peace of mind that comes from knowing my family's not going hungry no matter what. Lastcount supply.com. Lastountupply.com. It can be in your garage along with the peace of mind that comes with having it. I have a nephew who loves you and he's always, "Uncle Tucker, you got to interview this chick. She's amazing." And I'm so glad. Sorry. Excuse me. I just um It just makes me laugh. I mean, I just I love what you're saying. Of course, but you also are making a point about the guy you work with who started the company, owns the company, who even after

51:25 some of your audience bolted over this. Mhm. Um, he didn't call you in and say, "Knock it off." No, never. Never. That's not who Jenk is. And by the way, I mean, he's had hosts on our network who he vehemently disagrees with. And and by he's had other hosts come in and like demand that those hosts get fired because of what they're saying. Oh, it's offensive. And Jen's like, "No, we don't do that here." And I think what informs Jenk's behavior, honestly, is the fact that at one time he was a self-identified Republican. This is when he was in college and stuff. Yes. And he and I have like a lot of these heartto-he hearts because I have these days when I am down about everything that's transpired because I do feel like it's unfair to paint me in a certain

52:12 light just because you don't like the people I'm talking to. But um whenever I need like a little bit of a pep talk, he'll mention what it was like as a college Republican. And he's like, "Anna, it was unbearable because they wouldn't let me talk in class. Like they would do everything possible to prevent me from being able to speak." Who's they? Like other students or professors who didn't like his point of view. Okay. Liberals. Liberals. Yeah. So, and that really really frustrated him. And so now as the CEO of the Young Turks, he's not going to turn around and censor other hosts because he disagrees with them. A lot of people do though. A lot of people do. But to his credit, he doesn't. And that's why I've been there for 18 years. There have been other opportunities

52:59 to make a I love when people call me a grifter. I could have been a millionaire by now. I'm not a millionaire because I want to speak my mind and TYT has been the only place that's allowed me to do it. Good for you. Yeah. I don't think I mean most people don't host shows so they don't know the feeling. I have hosted shows so I do know the feeling. If your audience starts to move out from under you boy that is cuz that's that's your strength. That's your core. That's your revenue of course but more than that that's your that's your moral backing. Like you you know they may not like what I'm saying but my people do. My audience does. And so if they bolt in meaningful numbers boy there's nothing scarier. I mean I get it. Yeah it is scary. I'm not going to lie about that. I mean, being scared didn't deter me, but I was more concerned about what it was going to do

53:49 to the company overall because if things were bad enough and we didn't have enough revenue to keep every employee, people were going to get fired or laid off. And I wouldn't I would really struggle with the guilt. I would feel responsible for that. And so, I'm glad that that didn't happen. And we're currently we're rebuilding. And it's a dream come true for me because I want to build an audience of open-minded people who aren't going to like run for the hills the second they hear a point that they disagree with or that they haven't heard before. Or that they haven't heard before. Exactly. Yeah. Cuz there's I think there's a lot of that where if you know if you get past the initial shock like you'll say something be like, "Well, first of all, you're not allowed to say that. Second, I've never heard anybody say that and I kind of hate you for saying something new.

54:39 But but I do think that wears off after a moment and people are like, well actually is that crazy? Is that hateful? I don't I don't think it is. And you can kind of convince them after that. You have a decision to make. You can either build a niche audience and I think that's the worst option because a niche audience wants to be catered to and you have to be very careful to follow a very specific script. I'm not interested in that. And I think that I personally went through an era of being a little bit radicalized on the left and I regret that because I unwittingly did build a bit of a niche audience, but those folks What do you mean radicalized? Um I I totally bought the narrative that like everyone on the right's racist, everyone on the right is greedy, that

55:29 kind of stuff. So, Trump term one when everyone just got hysterical about Trump. Yes. Yeah, I get it. That was the era that I'm not proud of. Um, and I was basically building my own prison and I didn't realize it. And what I mean by that is once you have a niche audience, you're not allowed to deviate from a very specific and narrow ideology. And I don't want that. I'm not an ideologue. I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. I'm willing to recalibrate on policy if I see it implemented and it's not working correctly. I ultimately just want truth. I want justice and I want a country that represents its people. That's what I want. That's my core. Do you feel like um it is bridgeable?

56:16 Like there's so much anger. Mhm. Like and by the way, I do think the immigration thing and the crime thing sort of obscure it. Like the real fight is between educated whites. Like they're the ones who really hate each other. Really? I think that. Tell me more about that. Well, I think it's um I mean I just know from my own experience. I often say this, but you know, they called me a racist for many many years. And I would always say if I was racist, I would just admit it cuz like there are worse things. But I'm not. And I would get so hassled always by the same demographic. And I would always say to my wife, you know, every no black person's ever yelled at me. In fact, I've been hugged by a lot of black people. That's just a fact. I'm sorry. It's just true. And they

57:03 don't seem to think I'm a racist, but it's it's always middle-aged white women who were yelling at me at Logan Airport. Mhm. And like, what is that? No, I'm not whining. I mean, I don't really care, but it's just it's just interesting. And so, I think it's it's almost like fratricidal. It's like professional class whites who read the New Yorker, read the New York Times, like they're truly angry at each other. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I've just noticed this. Yeah. I mean, it's I think it's just it's propaganda and and this thought that certain things are way worse than they really are or that like they're perceived threats I think aren't real to the extent that they think it's real and

57:51 and by speaking out and by confronting you and by, you know, doing what you're referring to, I think they get a sense of I'm doing something about it, you know. No, I get it. No, I'm not even attacking them. It's just interesting to me the I mean because it's clear it's totally real in their minds. This is it is of course not just performative. It's like I've felt rage before. So and as you so eloquently described like that rage obscures and I think maybe it's designed to obscure the reality of like physical degradation all around us. All around us. Yes. Yeah. So and I think that is kind of the point. I think it is to some extent intentional. But but what since you do live in that world and have for so long as rashly as you can clinically as you can,

58:39 can you explain what they're worried about? Well, I mean I think I think that their heart is in the right place. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm giving them the presumption of good faith for sure. I just want to know like when some rich lady yells at me in the ski lift line, she thinks I'm racist. I know they always say that. But then there's also like there's a fascist takeover imminent. Is that part of it or what is the worry? Well, I mean, okay, let's talk about the fascist takeover because there is a part of me that's a little bit worried about that. Okay, so not just part of me, a lot of me. And look, I don't know what's in those women's heads. So I I just don't I don't understand them. So I feel weird talking about what they they're thinking and what every person should be worried about the centralization of power and the use of technology to strip basic

59:29 rights from citizens. Yeah. Like everybody like the Palunteer stuff concerns me a little bit, you know, anytime. Yeah. I mean the technology, not just Palunteer, but all the emerging technology, supercomputing, AI, all of this stuff, facial recognition, like it could be used to enslave the population. Totally. Really easily. Totally. Yeah. So, I don't know why I mean everyone should be freaked out about that. Are you worried about that? Definitely. Um I'm also a little bit worried about and I don't know how large this group of people in America happens to be, but you're hearing from them more and more. Uh this idea that no, we we need to move toward a post liberal and like post-liberal democracy. You know what I'm saying? like a rejection of the democratic process

1:00:20 overall. Like Curtis Yarvin is one of the figures who's been kind of preaching about this. He sounds really dumb. So I don't know how seriously people really take him, but he's he purports to want a monarchy in this country, which sounds insane. It I look, I'm opposed to monarchy and um the truth, however, is that the trends you're describing have totally discredited liberal democracy. That's my fear. And I think maybe it's intentional. So chaotic that we beg for a dictator. I kind of feel like that's happening. I hope people aren't begging for a dictator because you don't like the fact that the government isn't really representing your interest right now. Get a load of what it's going to be like to live under a dictator where you have no say at all. Right. No. No. I'm talking more about like quality of life questions like if there are home invasions going on and the

1:01:07 homeowner doesn't have any expectation the cops are going to save him. That kind of stuff. That's not theoretical. That's like that induces panic. True. Yeah. It makes me uncomfortable even thinking about it. Mhm. You know, uh so if you have a lot more of that, people were like, I don't really give a [ __ ] about voting. What I care about is my kids not being killed. Yeah. And actually, you make a really good point, which is why it's so important for Americans who value liberal democracy to really start thinking seriously about saving it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I want. But don't you feel like when people are under like if you were on a plane flying across the Pacific that dropped 20,000 feet in a minute and you're saying your prayers

1:01:52 maybe you're an atheist you saying prayers anyway couldn't control yourself and would what would you be willing to do or give up in exchange for not dying? In other words, if you're totally panicked, you're in freef fall on a commercial airliner. God, I will do anything. Like that's kind of what is happening with crime, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And not just crime. Not just crime. Yeah. I mean, so many issues. It's it is a problem when most Americans agree on something and our politicians know it, but they do the opposite anyway. And I I've been increasingly angry with the fact that, you know, I feel that the interests of Americans and how they feel about going to war with Iran,

1:02:40 for instance, right? Most Americans do not want to go to war with Iran, and it didn't matter. Okay?

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