Hoping Against Hope: A Love Story Written By God w/Stephanie Gray Connors | E226 Lila Rose Show

0:00 We all have common needs to be recognized, to be loved, and to have someone to share life with. I remember you were so terrified of not getting married. For those years, the amount of times I got mad at God and he's like, uh, you would be ugly crying on my couch about being single. Each person has to wrestle with, am I being too picky? And I was certainly told that. There is this narrative that there's something wrong with you if you don't get married in your 20s. What's your take on that? At the exact moment, he's praying over me. And I know the exact moment because you were involved. I was when God plans something for you, when he wills something for you, all hosts of things will come into play that you couldn't even possibly imagine could occur. Hi everyone, welcome back to the Llaya Rose Show. I am so delighted that today

0:46 I'm sitting down with one of my best friends, Stephanie Gay Connors. This episode is very personal. We get into some of her apologetics work on issues like IVF, euthanasia, assisted suicide, but it really is a story of someone who is trusting God and going through good times and bad and discovering God's incredible mercy and how she found love at 40. Stephanie's story will inspire you to see how God can work through the unexpected and even the dark times to bring about his calling in our lives. Also, a huge thank you to everybody who has subscribed to the show. If you are not subscribed yet, make sure that you subscribe. That helps the show reach more people. Also, if you're listening on podcast app, leave us five stars. Leave us a review. That also helps the show grow. And if you're over here on

1:32 YouTube, make sure you ring that notification bell so you don't miss future episodes. Stephanie Gay Connors, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. I'm finally here in person. I love it. It's beautiful. Thank you. I'm so glad you're here. I'm delighted to be here. And full disclosure for the folks listening, Stephanie and I are filming this after hours. Kids are asleep. Our babies are sleeping. Finally. Finally. It was a It was a bit of a stretch especially for you. Yes. My youngest uh clashed with my oldest and uh the youngest got to stay up later. She's a very cute little girl. She is. They both are. So Stephanie and I go way back. We've known each other I think 20 years now. Yeah. So I or more circa 2007. I was 27 and you were 19. You were actually just really making it big in

2:19 the um undercover work you had done and that was hitting the news. And I remember the the days that we were hanging out. We went to Costco at one point and you were taking media calls and I was just sitting in like the Costco cafeteria. You were like walking around and like doing interviews. Yeah. I don't even I don't remember the Costco calls, but I do remember meeting you for the first time because Greg Cunningham, who's a real patriarch of the pro-life movement in a good way, he's done really trailblazing work, but he said, "You have to meet this Canadian Stephanie Gray. She's doing amazing things to bring the pro-life movement to Canada." And I learned a lot from you right away. Yeah. Well, I remember he was really keen to have us meet because there weren't a lot of at the time like young female activist apologists that were

3:07 getting the message out there and he wanted uh yeah wanted us to meet and um yeah that was the start of a beautiful friendship. So I'm I'm your I'm your big fan but for those who don't know you yet and I I also want to say one other quick thing. Stephanie is an incredible author. We'll talk about her work in a minute, but she's also beautifully not on social media intentionally, which is a very interesting thing for a public person to do. I'm going to ask you about that. Okay. But if you don't know if you don't know Stephanie yet, you're in for a treat. First off, kick us off with a little bit about your background. Yes. Well, I am a wife and a mother. I have four babies in heaven and two on earth. Uh, and I got married late at 40. And so career-wise leading up to my marriage

3:52 for about 20 years, I worked full-time in the pro-life movement. And I was very inspired when I was 18 years old, by another American, Scott Kusendorf, who actually had been inspired by Greg Cunningham, who you mentioned. And I heard Scott give a pro-life apologetics weekend lecture series. And he said, "There are more people working full-time to kill babies than there are working full-time to save them." And I became deeply convicted that weekend that I was meant to be one of the people working full-time to save babies. And I was particularly drawn to Scott's style of speaking, apologetics, debating, and thought, I not only want to work full-time saving babies, but I want to do it the way this man does it. And so I stayed in touch with him after the conference and he really began to mentor

4:38 me from a distance. And so I finished my degree and he really helped connect me to others and into training that would prepare me to be able to turn kind of a passion for a cause into what would be my full-time work. And so I started that when I graduated in May of 2002 and did that for years and decades. And I still do, but not to the same level because uh well now I've got my little ones to focus on. So, how many speeches do you think you've given across the world? Uh, well, so I'm very type A and so I literally have every talk I've ever given recorded in an Excel document year by year. Wow. So, I know it's over a thousand uh and in various countries

5:25 obviously originally over a thousand individuals talks. Yes. Yeah. Over over the, you know, the two decades. Um, obviously being from Canada, a lot of them began in Canada, but then now I live in the States and and certainly a lot of my speaking has been in the United States, but then some in Europe and Latin America as well. And then how many countries have you been to speaking? Speaking so Canada, US, uh, Mexico, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Ireland, Scotland, England, Latvia, at least nine. Austria 10. Did I say Austria? Yeah, I don't think so. um at least 10. And then you've done a lot of debates. Yes. And I think my ability to do debates now is in no small part

6:12 because of what you modeled and the way that you approach debates, which is obviously logic and science first, apologetics, winsome, but also your tone is something that's so commendable because you go into this as a Scott Cluendorf style. I mean, a huge kudos back all the way back to Scott, right? But it's this approach of really loving winning the other person. And you gave that phenomenal talk over at Google's headquarters a few years ago. Yes. Very famous talk now where you talked about winning people to the pro-life cause, not just winning the argument. Right. Exactly. And that's key. And yes, that has been, you know, built into me through the various mentors that I've had and then through direct experience of debating people and engaging people and trying some really solid

6:57 intellectual arguments, seeing them work at times and then at other times seeing them fail and thinking, well, why is this failing? Because I know in theory it's an airtight case and in practice it's worked in other circumstances. Why is it failing now? And then over time I began to see it fails sometimes because you're dealing with very wounded people who are coming from personal experiences where they've had abortions or they drove a friend to a clinic or their mom had an abortion and so their close ties with that act um have caused them to think if I align with this woman's views and I get convinced by her and I admit that I'm convinced by her and I admit abortion is wrong then what am I saying about the abortion that I drove my friend to get what am I saying about my

7:43 mom who had an abortion what am I saying you know whatever that person's story might be and so that causes them if it's very personal to then not accept the logic and so that's where we really need to be extra compassionate and extra what I call compassionately curious where we want to draw out of them what that story is so that they can then encounter someone who knows where they're coming from and doesn't sense that we hate them even though we hate the act of abortion doesn't sense that we judge them even though we judge the act of abortion. And so if they can receive from us, someone who says, "What does someone who's had your experience want someone who has my experience to understand and just be quiet and listen to what they have to say?" That speaks volumes. You know, to

8:30 say, "I'm curious. Where does your passion come from?" Instead of sharing your own passion, truly want to know the origins of theirs and just listen and see what they say. Um, and so as I have done that over the years and as people as a result of those open-ended questions revealed things to me like that they were victims of rape, that they were raised in terrible poverty and grew up, you know, getting food via food stamps and um, you know, that their mother was abused and all kinds of stories that people have revealed to me has has broken my heart in a good way because then I could have profound compassion not just for the child in the womb but for the person before me. And so through all that experience, besides being taught the importance of compassion, but really having to live it out, um, that has defined, I think, how

9:17 I then want to present the pro-life case in the public square. You do a phenomenal job of it. Thank you, sis. This thought just keeps coming to me while you're talking. I think about Stephanie in college at uni. They call it right in Canada. They call it, what do they call it in Canada? Yeah, uni. I mean university, but I actually often do have like notes written about uni. Maybe that's just the short form. What do they call it? Do they call it college? What do you guys call it in Canada? Oh, yeah. University. You say university. You don't say uni. Yes. Yeah. Well, some people in the states we don't say uni. That's You don't even say university often it's college. Is it right? People often say college. And that is a big difference. If people go to a university, they say I'm going to university, not college. What's the other word? Bag. Say bag. Bag. Bag. Like you like like begging your groceries.

10:04 Begging your groceries. What's the other word that our our we say so differently? Apparently roof. R O sounds pretty that sounds pretty good. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Right. Americans say sorry. Like as if it's an a. Sorry. And actually speaking of Scott K closenorf being with his kids and they the his one son ran up to me with the board game. Remember the old board game Sorry? And he said, "Can we play this?" He didn't say what it was called, but he showed me the box. And of course, I see sorry written on it. And I said, "Sorry, I love that game." And he looked at me. He was like 10 years old. And he goes, "Sorry?" What do you mean it's sorry? That's so cute. Bed sheets matter. You want bed sheets

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11:38 to treat yourself or your loved one with. And go to cozyearth.com using the code lila for a full 40% off your order. What I'm imagining is you because you're very bright and I'm imagining you you hadn't committed to full-time pro-life work yet. You're in college. What were you studying or you're in uni? Whatever. I actually started in theater. Okay. Uh I hadn't declared my major, but I was taking a lot of theater classes and was wondering if I would major in theater. But after the first year taking some other arts classes, I ended up taking more polyai. In the end, I landed on making a major in political science. What did you imagine yourself to be in the future when you were entering college? Because you wasn't pro-life activist yet. Okay, this is very interesting. Tell me, please. You will

12:24 like this. I don't know if I've ever told you that. I don't know if you have either. That's why I'm asking. Okay. Well, there's what I always said and then there's the thing that's interesting that I think you'll like. Okay. Um, so I remember I didn't know that was one of the biggest crosses for me at the as high school was ending because there there that there's that sense of what's next? I've got to I've got to go to university. That seemed like the responsible thing to do. And then it and then but I didn't know what I wanted to actually study. And I had three very dear best friends who were still like the core four we call ourselves. And all three knew that they were going to be doctors. And all three to this day are still doctors. And I remember thinking, I like biology, but I hate the other sciences and I don't really want to do that math and all the things that are required as as prerex. So I thought, I'm not going to be like them and do med school. Uh so then what

13:10 do I do? But I really liked acting and performing and I also like play piano. So I kind of had a performance background even musically. And so I thought well I'll do theater but that didn't seem like it was going to result in any type of job. So then I would always say and if that doesn't work my backup will be occupational therapy. It was just I don't know. I read about different jobs. Maybe I would like that. Um but it's funny because I can imagine this torturing you because you're you're a type A and a little OCD. You're like, "Yes, totally. I have my my other girlfriends have their lives figured out. What where's my figure outable plan here?" I totally didn't know. But at the same time, I also So, and I had a passion for things that didn't seem like careers or at least income producing careers like being an actress, whatever that is going to manifest into. And um

13:58 you know, uh I also had a great passion for the pro-life move. So even though I heard Scott when I was 18, I was that kid going to pro-life conferences as a child because my parents were activists. I was going to marches and rallies and protests because that's what they did. So I grew up in the movement, loved the cause, loved babies, and was horrified when I learned at an early age what abortion was. Similar similar to you learning at an early age. And so I knew I also wanted to give myself to the pro-life movement, but had no concept that that could be a career. So I went to college and really struggled with what to do. But years later, once I began full-time pro-life work and had been particularly working full-time as a speaker and educator, it was years in that I found a little journal letter that I had written in 1997.

14:46 It was 97 or 98. It was the as those years went into each other when I was in grade 12 or 12th grade as Americans say, but Canadians say grade 12. And we I had come across this little prompt in a journal that said, "Write a letter to someone dead or alive um just expressing what's on your heart and what your dreams and aspirations are." I had forgotten I'd ever written this letter. And years later, when I was already a full-time speaker, I stumbled upon it. And my grade 12 year in high school started in September of 97 when Mother Teresa died. I wrote my letter to Mother Teresa. She was already dead. I'm getting chills right now because I wrote a letter to Mother Teresa. Sis, how did I not know

15:33 that? And I didn't know. Mother Teresa. I didn't know what what you're sharing. So, what did you say in your letter? So, I said, I don't know what I want to do with my future. And all my friends know, but I guess if I were to really think about it, I would love to be some form of speaker. I have like no recollection. I I probably said that too. I at this point like forget I still have the letter somewhere. Um but I remember reading it thinking, "Oh my gosh, in 1997, just after Mother Teresa died, I wrote her a letter and I basically told her that deep down I actually would like to do what I am now doing." and had completely forgotten they'd ever written

16:18 that and ever dreamed that which is just a cool God thing which I also think it shows like we often you know the truth is written on our hearts we often hear and say but it's like a truth was written deep into my being as to what God was calling me to do and I knew it even though I had no idea how that could be possible or what that could look like cuz ask me in 1997 um what being a speaker was I mean back then Like the internet was literally just coming out, which is also very funny. I'm that old. I tell people now like 1998 was when I got my first email address. Email was just like a couple years old. And and so like it's not like we had TED talks and it's not like we had all these lecture series that are available online

17:04 and being a public speaker was a thing the way it is now. Of course, there were always traveling speakers and people would come to our church and give talks and do series and stuff. So obviously speaking and educating existed but not the way it kind of is now and that there was something in me in 1997 this 17-year-old girl wondering what what am I meant to do but yeah it's beautiful that you were confiding that to Mother Teresa because she is the pro-life champion right she had she was the proife champion oh yeah every time she spoke publicly she talked about abortion even when it wasn't popular and people were like what did she hear she's supposed to talk about the you know orphans of Kolkata India and she's talking about Americans abortion Right. Because the spiritual poverty that was in the west. Yes. Abort. She said our spiritual poverty because of the death

17:49 the death killing of abortion is greater than the physical material poverty of Kolkata India. Yeah. Yeah. But but you were her spiritual daughter. Yeah. And I I'm going to you know folks here on the show know we you know Catholic. I believe she was praying praying for you praying for your vocation praying for your work. Yeah. Well, and I think also her prayers are very mighty because even I remember thinking at my young age of 17 when she died, it was about um 5 days after Princess Diana died, something like that. And I and they were also very close friends. Yes. And I remember Mother Teresa's death was overshadowed by Princess Diana's death. And I remember thinking, I bet she asked God to die then. Like I remember

18:36 thinking I bet she did because she was such a humble woman, who didn't like all the attention that she was given that for someone like her who didn't want all the attention that inevitably she would get upon her death, the one person who could overshadow that would have been Mother would have been Princess Diana and it was. So she died. I almost wonder like I just had this thought. I mean I remember being so young and thinking Diana died first and then Mother Teresa found out her friend had passed and said now's a good time for me to go. This is this is a 17-year-old girl theorizing, but just thinking at what other time would the world not respond the way it should have cuz I remember thinking it is very unusual. Obviously, there was a lot of talk about Mother Teresa's death. Um, but it was not what I thought would have been the case because the world was

19:22 still talking about the death of Princess Diana. You know, you know, I have this interesting kind of newer theory about holy deaths. So these very holy people who die and often become saints, right? Yeah. But I I think about like Carlo Autis who's about to be canonized and Pier Giorgio Frisad who's about to be canonized and I think about the lives of some of these saints and how they lived largely without notoriety. They were just normal people, right? And the fact that in one sense we kind of overlook holy people like like they're just like, "Oh yeah, I like that's a great they're a lovely person. I love them." but they're not really commanding attention, right? If anything, they're often avoiding it to some degree, right? You know, they're just moving about their work and just doing keeping their head down. And I

20:07 just think that's I don't know maybe the parable of the modern age that the people that command the most attention that have the most attention that, you know, are are, you know, I'm not saying they don't have things they can teach us too or they don't have goodness, you know, and there maybe there are saints that are these huge people, right? But that because we're all called to be saints. So, we want everyone to be Yes. But that that little person you pass by on the street who's your next door neighbor, whatever, or that grandmother who's in the church, back of the church praying the rosary who you're like rushing past, right? That literally could have a higher crown in heaven like probably does the devotion, you know, than me anyways, like of their soul. Yeah. Living well, really living. What comes to mind as you're speaking is the old civil rights movement song that a

20:53 PBS series was uh titled after which was the Eyes on Eyes on the Prize is what it was called. Eyes on the prize. Amazing PBS series that really documents the civil rights movement. Um but the the activists would sing Keep Your Eyes on the Prize, oh Lord. And that's like every episode in the series starts off with them singing that song. Um, but yeah, it's often the quiet, humble soul that keeps their eyes on the prize and they're remembering it's not about worldly praise. It's not about on the prize. It's holy goal is they're they're focused on heaven. They're focused on the next world. That uh this world is not our home. That we are pilgrims on a journey. We are passing through, but my eye is on the prize. My eye is on on heaven. That's where that's where I'm

21:40 meant to go. And yeah, it's often these quiet holy souls that um maybe we don't notice them as much because they're focused elsewhere and we're focused elsewhere, but shouldn't we be focused where Yeah. where they are? When you found that letter, how old were you? Then you looked back. I don't remember exactly, but I was several years into public speaking because what struck me when I read it, and this has happened several times with my journals, um, was that I had basically expressed what had come to fruition. And I've seen that happen a number of times, which is pretty cool in my journaling over the years. It's summertime. It's the time of barbecues and cookouts. It's time to get your Good Ranchers subscription going on. Good Ranchers sources 100% of its chicken, its beef, its pork, its fish

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23:15 or chicken wings in every box for the life of your subscription. Just use the code Laya at checkout. Use the code Laya at checkout at Good Ranchers for $40 off your order, lifetime free add-on, as well as fast and free shipping. Enjoy your American meat delivered. I want to ask you if it's okay about the vocation element of what you have done with your life. I mean, you're now married. you're living the vocation of marriage, but you were a pro-life activist and very much, you know, traveling the world, speaking, you know, dozens and dozens of times a year, over a thousand times you've given individual talks and we didn't even talk about the media interviews you've done and everything else, which is probably a thousand more. A lot. I mean, I've also kept record of those, too. But it's it's

24:01 a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. A lot of talking, but for life and and to save to save lives. And as an aside, you noticed how well my 15-month-old talks. I know. I just because she's from a long line of talkers. I just met her 15-month-old, and the girl is articulate. Like, she's talking. I'm like, "Wow, this girl, like her mother." Actually, you know what? About two months ago, we were driving in the car, me and both the girls, and I was saying to my three and a halfyear-old Violet, we drove past something and I was like, "Hey, remember when?" And I was recalling this memory and I kept saying, "Remember, Violet? Remember?" And then all of a sudden from the back seat you hear her little at that point like 13-month old sister Molly go remember. I was like wow feel it. Molly just said remember. That is very She's very

24:48 precocious. Yes. So were you hoping to get married when you started out as a younger activist? So and I have to just say one thing for folks listening really quick here contextually. There is a debate ongoing especially in the more conservative space of the internet about womanhood femininity and this idea of rejecting girl boss culture right then there's the other element of okay as Christian women we're called to actually double down on the gifts we've been giving to give back and if you feel a sense of calling to marriage you want to be open to marriage but you want to also be able to prepare to be a good wife and a mother whatever that looks like that's also confusing for a lot of women what does that mean these days. And then you throw in there the the other complication, especially if you're a

25:34 practicing Catholic, of well, maybe I'm called to be consecrated or maybe I'm called to the religious life. And and so I think a lot of women I talk to, and I know you talk to, younger women, and sometimes now women in their 30s and 40s are kind of having these vocational crises is maybe a strong word, but I wouldn't say it's the wrong word, right? I mean people are really wrestling with their vocation, their their their purpose. So I think your story is fascinating. I mean obviously know it full disclosure. Uh but I think it's uh the way that you navigated these questions yourself before they became like trendy topics to discuss today I think was actually very it's very uh commendable but it's also

26:21 very interesting and I think lends a lot of food for thought. So yeah. So that yeah vocation the the big V vocation right like now I'm living out the vocation of marriage was something that I remember praying about wrestling with almost like fighting with God over in terms of wanting to know what I was meant to do what he made me for what he wanted me to do with what I wanted to do and did those match up and all of that. I wrestled with that. I mean, really, until I met my husband. And I remember, so I started full-time work. I wasn't quite 22 when I start I was 21. That was the year I turned 22. And I remember thinking, well, I feel very passionate about this.

27:07 And doors clearly were opening in the direction of speaking. Every time I would give a talk, someone in the audience would say, hey, can you speak at this event or that event? It was like God was clearly shining a light on this particular path that he wanted me to do. But then it involved a lot of travel and involved a lot of um time building something really from nothing also like a nonprofit organization and so forth. Right. You founded an organization in Canada. Yeah. And so I remember being like God I want a companion for the journey. You said it is not good for the man to be alone when you you created the world and I don't want to be alone. Um but I really feel called not only to the pro-life movement but to this aspect of pro-life education of apologetics and teaching and so forth. So what is that

27:54 what is that going to look like? And so I have journals to Jesus starting when I'm probably like 23 years old being like oh Lord please like I would just love someone to really help me do this and to be my companion for the journey. And what about kids? How when you were imagining this like missional marriage and you're like globe trotting did you think well when when we have our kids they just come with? So that's a great question because that started to become the source of conflict in my prayer of thinking as a Catholic I am going to be open to life. But if I get married now when I feel so called to do all this stuff and I get pregnant, will I be able to fully pour myself out and give myself to the world in a way the way I think I'm called to

28:40 do while being faithful to not only my husband to but to my children who will require a special attention of me that that not even you know a husband does. Um, and so without being married and without even being close to that, I that was that was a big source of struggle for me. And I have years of journals where I'm like, God, like where is my husband? But then wondering, well, has God not given me a husband because he wants me to do this very specific work? And that was also a source of some potential even resentment, right, with God? Yeah. Yeah. I got very angry at God over the years. There were times. Yeah. Yeah. Was I always ultimately convicted that God

29:26 existed and God loved me and I was to be faithful to him and I was to keep going to mass and keep going to confession and using the sacraments and loving. Yes. But my heart was deeply wounded on on various occasions being like feeling abandoned, feeling like why haven't you given me what I want and what I want isn't bad and all of that. Um, and I there were even times like I would watch movies of social reformers like Schindler's List. Um, I remember watching a movie about the suffragettes who fought for the women's right to vote in like early 1900s. I remember watching even the movie movie Freedom Writers, which the title is a spin-off of Freedom Writers about the civil rights movement. Um, in each of these movies, it often

30:14 involved very strong characters, sometimes female, obviously Schindler's is a dominant male character, but in these other movies, dominant female characters, but what always struck me in these movies was the total giving of self that these people gave to their causes and that it often involved um terrible things to the relationships they had or not having relationships that they wanted. And honestly, sis, I would watch these movies and often those nights, I would cry myself to sleep. Because if I saw a movie where someone didn't live faithfully out their relationship because they were giving themsel to a cause, my heart would break thinking, I don't want to hurt other people as I give myself to a cause. But

30:59 I feel called to give myself to a cause, but I also feel called to, you know, have family and support and community around me. And I think when someone is not yet locked down into a vocation of religious life or marriage or some form of very clear consecrated life um where they still have a community of like-minded individuals the way you would in religious life or the way you would in married life where you're in a sense building a family structure a small unit in in in the lifestyle that you have. um how important it is to nonetheless carve out very intentionally good community, good friendships so that you don't feel the aloneeness. So what carried me through, you know, those times where I was feeling really

31:45 heartbroken uh was for example our beautiful sisterhood that we have with our dear friend Christina. Um I met Christina in 2003 when I was 23 and I think we're four years apart. So was she like 19? Um and then a couple and we instantly felt like soul sisters. She was on her crusade as well. Yes. Also in in the pro-life cause and I just we we clicked. We felt like you know if if anyone any of your listeners know an of Green Gables which by the way is a Canadian written by a Canadian author classic book. But right an and Diana are bosom buddies. There's just this this connection. And that's what I felt with Christina. And that was 2003. So more than 20 years ago. And then when you and I met, I felt the same thing. Am I an Ann of Green Hills? Well, you're the

32:32 same. It's just three of us. But I felt the same the same connection. And then that was 07. And then a couple years later when Christina and I were hanging out, I mentioned having met you and she's like, "No way. I met her, too." And then we started doing vacations together and the the three of us and just so that this sisterhood with you and Christina and myself um gave me so much life when I was like who are the people that really get me and understand because I don't have a religious community and I don't have a spouse. um consolation. It gave me tremendous consolation. Tremendous. And the number of times also that our work over overlapped sometimes just you and Christina or me and you or whatever, but then also other

33:18 times all three of us year after year after year. The amount of times with our crazy schedules we managed to be together and sharing experiences together and and talk about, you know, the depths of our our souls um was so life-giving. And so I think back now um also in these more recent years where we have seen much less of each other because we now have the husbands we so longed for and the children that we so longed for. Um I think back now looking in hindsight at the precious precious gift of sisterhood that God gave me that was a consolation. Now when I think back to those times of desolation and was a very beautiful source of life which is ultimately what one's vocation should be. And then the mar many many many

34:03 myriad of other people that I met through my travels. The number of families I stayed with and it was so life-giving to meet the elderly couples, the young families, the so many different people who spoke life into me and in in a short window of time over just a couple years invited me into their world and their families and made me feel like I had belonging when I was in another part of the world. That was also profound consolation um in a season where I didn't have the defined vocation which yeah for any listeners who were kind of feeling they're like it's not defined yet. Having those those um friendships and communities and support structures around you that aren't exactly what you're looking for can nonetheless be uh

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35:35 pull-ups for that little one that is maybe potty training. You got to check them out. Every also has just come out with their new shampoo and baby wash and lotion package. The product is amazing. I have already started to use it. That's everylife.com/join. Use the code Laya. Before I got married to Joe or shortly after, I was reflecting on our friendship. You know, you were obviously a bridesmaid and I was able to during the pandemic make it to your wedding, which was you're like one of the 19 that came which was such a blessing. Um, and I was just reflecting on just the moments of, you know, those relationships where you feel fully known, fully seen, fully loved, and you can be completely open about truly anything, transparent. Yes. And you're also with someone that can hold your

36:21 transparency safely. And then on top of that, you have fun with them. And then on top of that, you're like passionate about the same like big goals. And then on top of that, they're actually helping you grow and mature, not just by hearing your deepest thoughts, but also by like cultivating, you know, conversations about how we're going to get to this big goal. And I mean, it it had like our relationship has had all those things. And with Christine, it's had all those elements to make it a true spiritual friendship in every every aspect. But I was just contemplating on my life when I was getting married and just I was realizing like the best moment of my life besides obviously like being Catholic, you know, like woohoo, you know, I'm Catholic. I get to receive the Eucharist, but it was like I remember

37:07 especially the last uh I think sister retreat we had at that random hotel. We went to the Airbnb in Northern California and the cat dandruff was making you sneeze and like we die. And we had to go to a hotel. We went to that random hotel. So, actually, it was it was Christina's dog allergy, although I have the cat allergy. I was still like, "Oh, right. This is this is the difference between us, which is so great. Your memory is always great with the big picture." And then I come in with the details and I'm like, "Well, actually, but no, you're right. We had it was the Airbnb. Christina walked in. She There's been a dog here. Cat allergy?" No, she is the dog allergy. I have the cat allergy. So, you did have No, but you had a cat. There was a there was a big fat fluffy cat.

37:52 Yes, I I remember this. It was the lower unit of the double unit Airbnb and we were going to do the upstairs unit, but then uh maybe then Okay. Okay. We went downstairs and there was a dog and you said there's a cat. Oh, well maybe there was a dog. Christina couldn't stay in one unit and I saw the cat and I couldn't do either. Well, for sure. I remember going to the hotel for you. But anyways, that at that hotel and I think some of us were on the cusp of big decisions. I think Christina had just started dating her husband. Yeah. Her now husband. I don't think I was. Was I You were dating Joe. Oh, I was dating Joe. Okay. I was dating no one and I very sad about it. So dramatically. Well, we also I think always felt like

38:37 whatever I remember one of us said whatever our vocation is, it's going to be the same for all three of us. And it did work out the way. Thanks be to God. But I just remember the feeling of of just like zen. I mean peace, joy, consolation I had being with you women in this beautiful random hotel. It wasn't even a fancy one. It was just like some random hotel just having conversation with each other. Yes. It's such a it just it just reminds me of the power of friendship and also how rare it is to find true friends. This is true. That really, as you say, get you on every level. And because the Arisatilian view of friendship is you're looking towards something together. You're sitting side by side. You're looking towards someone together. It's not just doi affection for each other. Right. Right. It's what's the word? What's the Greek word for friendship? Oh, uh filtho. Filio

39:23 love. Filio. Is it is it there's there's agape aerosil. Filio. Is that it? Yeah. That's the That's like friendship, right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And then sto is Am I saying this right? Is affection. That's not how you say it. Thank you, Harris. Sto whatever. Anyways, we had the affection but we had real we had we have but the point is it is so consoling to have that kind of relationship and I think a lot of people today struggle to have that true deep friend that on on every level it's activated for them. Yes. I mean I just so I just want to thank you for being my friend. So I mean this but then also Yeah. Go ahead. Well, no. I was going to say

40:09 actually what I remember about that now that you're bringing back all the memories is uh you're right. We we were just so blessed by the presence of being able to share openly with each other. But I remember also there was this thing that always happened every time we got together where one of us would like it was like a day where we would just share what was on our heart and then the next day was the next sister and the next day was the next sister. But I remember at one point I think because I was the one who was like woe is me because I'd had the broken engagement and and still kind of heartbroken and life isn't working out. Um and how old were you at this point? Well, this was in our in my 30s for sure. I was 30s when when that when we did that there would have been many events together but that was one of them. later 30s. I remember I don't remember this, but when I was sharing, I

40:57 started just sobbing and weeping and I just at one point could no longer even talk. I was just so sad and I remember exactly. You kind of just laid down at my feet and Christina put her hand on my hand and you guys said nothing and you were kind of like a cat and a dog, you know, like now. Was I the cat or the dog? I'm not a pet person, but I can I can understand for that moment why people like pests, but this sounds like a terrible comment to make about your dear sisters. But what I mean is that was so meaningful to me because I just felt loved and fully accepted and supported and you understood my pain and there weren't words you could give. There

41:42 weren't things you could say, but you could just be there. And it reminds me in my apologetics, in my speaking when I when I speak about suffering um and in the topic of euthanasia and assisted suicide and end of life, one of the things I I share is this beautiful um care home project thing that goes on in the state of Washington, which involves a home for elderly people that also runs a child care daycare kind of preschool center. So the very old and the very young are constantly interacting every day and it's not your traditional relationship. Again, we're talking about traditional vocations and we were yet living the traditional vocation but thought God was still providing us support through sisterhood and community. And so here you've got old

42:27 people and children who aren't as they daily interact in the traditional relationships. It's not their grandparents. It's not their grandchildren. It's not their, you know, primary family unit, but daytoday this preschool and this elder care center have multiple programs where these two generations interact and hang out. And when I talk about this program and the life-giving aspect it is, particularly for the elders who in our world today often feel abandoned, the director of the care home says, "We all have common needs to be recognized, to be loved, and to have someone to share life with." And when I desired marriage, of course, what I wanted was to be recognized by a man who had committed to me for life, who to

43:12 be loved by a man who committed to me for life, you know, to have sh that man who committed to me for life that I was living my dayto-day with. But I didn't have that. Well, what I had to come to terms with, even though I eventually did get married, was that I didn't need marriage. What I did need is exactly what that woman said. I needed to be loved. I needed to be recognized. And I needed to have someone to share life with. And so in that season of not having the defined vocation, the Lord fulfilled that need and still does, but of being recognized, loved, and having someone to share life with through, for example, our beautiful sisterhood, you know, with Christina. And that moment in particular when I remember being so sorrowful and just having the silent

43:59 sacred presence of sisters who deeply cared for me, recognized me, loved me. That that was Yeah, it kind of that moment and that quote I feel really come together. Beautiful. What is the difference between being loved and being recognized? I have a thought about what it is, but I'm curious how you see it. That's a good question. If I thinking out loud because I've not really defined it. I mean to be loved if we just go classic St. Thomas Aquinas says to love is to will the other's good. So whatever the need is of the other fulfilling that bestowing compassion, kindness, patience, right? St. Paul defines love is patient, love is kind.

44:44 So bestowing that on another to recognize them. I think if yeah if you love you are recognizing um you are really seeing them if you're truly loving them but to be recognized I think is to be as you as you kind of alluded to earlier is really seen to be known to be known so to be known you know and appreciated for and not just in some good thing you've done or some public act that you've done but fully known with your good bits and your bad bits and your boring bits and whatever and still someone notices and they sees and what what's your idea that's just No, I think that's because I think you can be loved and you're still a dirty scoundrel that has nothing good about

45:30 themselves. You know what I'm saying? But to be recognized, it's like no, the person sees and and enjoys and embraces and delights in even the weaknesses and the follyies, but certainly also the strengths and the goodnesses and the beauties and everything else. Yeah. I recognize delighting in I like that. It's like almost an an identity thing perhaps. So So I I've so there's so many things directions to take this and we're going to obviously talk about your book here in a minute which uh is beautiful. Your all your books are amazing. But I I think your vocation story is so powerful and I do think it would speak to a lot of the people listening or maybe there's people listening who know people that would benefit from your vocation story. And you know when so back to that scene

46:17 you're crying you know and I know many tears were shed by all three of us on these little retreats that we would do you know annually or sometimes even twice a year. Um but you were engaged at one point you had another boyfriend early on that you almost got engaged to. I mean there was a few close calls. Yeah. I mean obviously a bunch of when you when you don't get married till you're 40 go through a lot of different boyfriend. But in terms of official engagement, ring on finger, yes, that was when I was 34, almost 35. So there's a few things I want to ask you because you are the expert in terms of living it, having lived so much, right? There is this sort of like narrative you could say among people who are more conservative right now that there's

47:03 something wrong with you if you don't get married in your 20s. What's your take on that? I think the only time I would say there's something wrong with someone if they don't get married in their 20s is if God is calling them to get married in their 20s and they don't get married. And are they called then? Are they not? I mean, that's what each soul has to work through in terms of is there anything stopping them from pursuing a relationship they're already in or whatever. But but for me as I look back because I had all those years of wrestling with can I do marriage and ministry? Can I do both? Particularly if I'm going to be open to life that I believe I should be open to having. Um I now look back in hindsight and see God

47:48 wasn't calling me to be married when I journaled to him at 25 and when I journaled to him at 31 and when I journaled again at 38. you know, as hard as it was as the years went on, he was calling me to fully in a sense be his spouse. And that's what religious life is. And I remember thinking, but is is this forever? And in my case, it wasn't forever. Um, I mean, obviously we're all called to ultimately like have that spousal relationship, but in terms of vocation, but I think there was a very clear season where for me to be as fruitful as I was, and there's different types of fruitfulness, and there's still a fruitfulness ministry-wise to my life even now, perhaps even more so complemented by my experience of uh

48:35 marriage and my experience of motherhood, my experience of loss through miscarriages and so forth. Um, but I do believe now in hindsight, I look back, I'm like, I really was meant to be single that time to fully give myself in the way I was able to to give myself. Um, and it's interesting though when I finally met my now husband, it was the year of the pandemic and my work changed radically because events were being cancelled and suddenly everything I'd known professionally was dramatically changing. at the exact time as as my kind of my professional life you could say is tanking my personal life now started taking off

49:22 and I remember thinking as time went on I don't even want to leave Joe before even kids came into the picture I don't even want to leave Joe to go do an event but events weren't even happening so I didn't have to worry about that so my heart was already changing um and as I fell in love with him. It just became I don't know. It was a season where I was able to say I don't even feel a drive to keep doing things to the degree that I've been doing them that I felt so called to be doing them to that degree. And so it just was this natural change. Um and we got married and I still obviously do work and were in person with this podcast cuz I was giving a talk but my husband and kids came with

50:08 me and um so yeah. So, I'm not sure if I answered your question. I remember you were so terrified of not getting married. It was like terrifying. Yeah. So, Yes. So, I mean, and and you were worried it wouldn't happen. Yes. And I and I just I I I don't want to belabor this, but I just think it's such an important thing because I know so many women really of all ages Mhm. very young. They shouldn't even be worrying, but they're worrying at their early 20s, right? to their early 40s to even there's some women past that who are not and there's men too so you know obviously I'm speaking from the woman's experience but who are just struggling they want to be married and they are not right right

50:55 yeah no I I was very very upset at the thought that I wouldn't be as time went on and now again looking back in hindsight and and hearing other people's stories like a friend of mine just got engaged at 50. Um my her story is incredible. Can you share? Well, I don't know if I can without sharing her name, but someone someone very holy and very special. Yeah. Who who has just given her life, a public person, but we're not going to say her. Yeah. Yeah. A public figure who's just given her life so profoundly, so fruitfully as a single person, sacrificially to the pro-life cause this profoundly sacrifically. We can I don't even think we're sacrificing to what this person has sacrificed. Truly, truly this person is a living

51:40 saint. This person, if we go back to what we were talking earlier, eyes on the prize, living it out humbly. Don't draw attention to me. This is who we're talking about. Um, and I had never Did she desire marriage? Well, so this is the thing. I had never asked her. Uh, she was too holy. She just wanted God. She could I never asked her like I But I assumed that she wasn't going to get married. Isn't this funny? We make these assumptions about other people and I just find out that that she's about to get married, that she's engaged and and just overcome with the grace and the and the the the super abundant generosity of God to bring this love into her life that was totally in a very special way. Very special and beautiful way and she's 50 puts the puzzle pieces together in her life. Not

52:27 to share too much, but like in in a really incredible way that involves other people, too. Yeah. And so to to now as someone who's married and thought, well, I had the cool story getting married at 40, you know, and here she is getting married at 50. And then there's also um a friend of mine, I always held on to this story. Her mom had was married with my friend and her siblings. And um her husband died and so she was a single mom of these four children. And then she befriended a a lovely man um and was really falling in love with him and he was so good to her children, a real father figure. And uh found out that he had been married before and couldn't get an anulment and this kind of deep wound to her heart

53:14 of here I am a single mom. here I have fallen in love again, but I can't I can't get married to this man because in the eyes of God, he's still married. And so she was faithful to the teachings of the church and did not pursue a romantic relationship with him. And years went by, her children grew up and they got married and had grandkids. Well, this woman met a man when she was like 72 and just got married and is like over the moon, delighted, happy. Her daughter says, "Yeah, they're like teenagers." So, you know, whether it's my story at 40 or this person, you know, we referenced at 50 or this woman in her 70s. Um, and I remember holding on to

54:02 that story cuz that I knew before I got married. thinking. So when you were crying when you were crying with me at 37, you're like, "Well, I guess I can wait till I'm 72." But this you got staying power, but you've always had staying power, sis. That's that's something. But this idea that we're all on a journey and yes, for sure, vocation wise, the vast majority of people are called to marriage as opposed to religious. Do you know anyone who went to their death unhappy that they weren't married? I guess not that I know of. Do you? No. Yeah. Not that I know of. Like someone who just like they really wanted to get married, they never met the person, and then they just died. I mean, not not that I know of. I mean, it's possible.

54:48 I'm sure those stories are out there. Um but what I when when you go so anyways these stories are are signs that God can really have a desire of our heart come to fruition but not on the timeline we expect or think or in the way we expect it in the way we expect it or the way that is at all within what we would think is a normal time frame. But we can still find great, you know, fulfillment in our lives. And um but when I think back to you just referenced to like there were times I was like super sorrowful. That's where in my book on IVF when I talk about suffering um one of the things I talk about is just how we can turn things into idols.

55:34 And to idolize something is to put that as your top. That is your eyes on the prize. That is your prize. Your idol. Our prize should be God. It could be marriage. could be having kids, right? So in the contfertility, the idol is I just want that child so badly, right? I want to get married so badly. Exactly. And I for sure there were seasons in my life where I had turned marriage into an idol that I can't be happy without this, which is entirely not true. And even when I look back in hindsight at those seasons, I had moments of great happiness and great fulfillment and great joy. Um so so I think it is possible though if someone is is deeply sorrowful over something that that could be a sign whatever that something is that they have turned it into an idol and need to work through

56:22 that spiritually you know with God and ideally with different spiritual directors advisers and so forth who can help them. How did you did you know that Joe was the one because you both wanted to marry each other at the same time? How did you know that your husband was the one? I honestly am that person who says the moment I saw him, I knew he was the one. Really? But had you said that about other guys? I'm trying to remember. There were certainly people that I remember thinking, "Okay, this is the one." But when I think back to how I felt in those moments and in those relationships, I always sensed something was off. And usually obviously because those ones never worked out, it was I felt they were the one, but they didn't feel that I was the one. And I even

57:07 sensed that. You didn't sense being loved, right? Or fully seen recogniz loved and recognized. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was like I knew. Um but yeah. So, and I think I we've mentioned this before in episodes, but it was you who tried to set me up with my now husband in 2016. Tell me again how great I am for setting you up with him. Like really, there's no words to say how great you are for sending me over with him because truly he's he's you guys are so beautiful together. I have married a saint. I have married a saint. Um and I mean, you know what it's like to be married to a Joe who's also a saint. Who's also a saint. I think I think like you live up to your name. Did I say this to you the other day? We were just talking about it yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. Like every joy I have met, like every woman who's named Joy is ridiculously

57:53 joyful. the ones I've met anyways, like it's like, whoa, you live out your name. Just there's some aura about them that's joyful. And so I feel like pretty much all the Josephs I meet. That's true. I'm thinking about the other the other Joe's besides my husband and I I'm trying to think of one that's not like like St. Joseph. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's interesting. So, yeah. I shout out to all the Joe's out there, but my Joe in particular, of course. I'm sure there's a serial killer named Joe somewhere. At one point, we wanted to name one of my kids, D one of our I like the name David, and we were looking up the name, but there's like with my husband's last with our last name and everything else. There's a blend. What would the name look like? Google and then there's an actual ser like a really horrible one. Okay. And you're like, forget it. I

58:39 don't want But I can't think of a terrible criminal right now. I don't know what a bad Joe. I only know good Joe's, but certainly I think I've got the best Joe, of course. But you tried in 2016, which was not even a year after I'd had my heart broken with the broken engagement. So my heart was already kind of guarded. Um, but you were very persistent in thinking that my now Joe was the one for me. And I remember being hesitant, but being open enough to be like, "Okay, fine. You can connect us via email." And we did email for 3 weeks. And I remember just over the emailing being like h there's some things like I was jumping to conclusions of about him based on what he'd written which I've now learned were entirely wrong and I can kind of be ENTJ judgy. So um I remember shutting it down

59:26 emailing him. Oh yeah the email about the the happy clappy music at Yeah. Yeah. We don't have to go into the specifics, but the point is there were a few things he said where I was like Joe made your Joe made a joke about Novasordo kind of 1980s westernized musical masses and it was like a very mild joke. I don't think it was that specific but I he wasn't he didn't use that language that was from everything I don't like so I actually like very traditional very sacred masses and the more like I experience like at actually where I went to mass on Sunday just like skolas and sacred music like Latin chanting love that I also have experience attending a Byzantine uh Ukrainian Catholic liturgy

1:00:13 on in your camp I know so here's my point it was just some sill there's point going to the specifics, but there was some silly reference that he made which made me think, but I also have what I call a charismatic heart. And so, I do like the praise and worship music and all that as well. So, I'm kind of this blend. Um, and so just something in me where I thought, I don't know if we're going to click in this way. And I remember just emailing him being like, you know, the long distance thing isn't working because we can't really meet in the flesh. So, I don't think I'll book a flight tomorrow. I know. I didn't know he was going to actually he would consider he would have considered coming in person. All that to say I incorrectly shot it down and you got mad at me correctly and told me that I had jumped to conclusions and I was misinterpreting and that we actually would be a really good match even though I thought we

1:00:59 wouldn't be. Anyways, the point is four years go by and there's kind of crazy and what he didn't know was he remarkably stayed single. He remarkably stayed single because he has a catch beyond all catches and and you for those four years in your luck. I know. And when I think for those four years, the amount of times I got mad at God and he's like, I know you would be weeping and you would be you would be ugly crying on my couch about being single and I'd be like Joe Connor. I know you kept saying that every time I saw you over those four years, you'd be like, "Joe's the one for you." And I'd be like, "Layla, enough of the Joe Connors guy." And and all of

1:01:46 that to say, this is a very long-winded answer to your question. So ironic is like on any category he's superior to your exes. Well, I mean I not to be offensive. I don't want to be offensive.

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