Legislators in Pakistan & their Capacity to Legislate |A Discussion with Syed Zulfiqar Ali Shah |EP2

0:00 No, we believe that if local governments come, they will share resources with us. Those who are with us, we will empower the people in the way we can, then we will bring the people under our control. Well Sir, there is another very important topic on this, on which there has not been so much discussion in Pakistan. What is the relationship like between that political party and its legislator or its prospective candidate ? Now political parties often say that our legislators leave us. And the legislators say that there is no growth in our party because we know its leadership that this is there, after this this will happen, after this this will happen. So a big marriage of inconvenience goes on between them.

0:50 Sir, what you are saying is that you are talking about electability crisis, that our legislator who has to become member of Mukanna has electability issues. And this is genuine. Because when you go to your areas, sir, the electability, political electability in Pakistan is through your party as well and you also have a personal contribution towards it. Sir, the work of the mayors of the local government or the representatives of the local government is based on the electability of our legislators. Now you will also be asked how many drains have you constructed? How many schools have been upgraded? How many jobs have you done? So has anyone ever asked you in your constituency that you are a legislator? Have you done any legislation? No. Look,

1:35 now let me tell you an interesting fact about when I contested the elections and I am not exaggerating. There was only one demand across the board. It was that when the person coming will come, he has to be identified. This was the demand. Across the board, there is our cultural requirement. When I come to you, you should know who I am, where I have come from and you have to help me out in my work. The purpose is that this is the basic mandate that we are getting and it is like this everywhere. It is very rare that someone comes and tells you that you have some work to do for India or that the electricity bill has gone up. Sir, if this is

2:22 also an issue of our political parties, if we had a functional local government system and this gap was being filled by the representatives of the local government, since you have also been a Tehsildaar, then there would have been a lot of space for the legislators and there would not have been so much pressure on them, it would have been better for the political parties also to give tickets to the experts and they would have been elected. This is so Sir, when you do not have even a single tier of government, then that gap is being filled by you Sir. Sir, look, unfortunately the politics we have has moved towards development. Wherever you have shortage of resources, public resources, then you have to

3:09 distribute whatever you have and the politics we have is that the people who voted for you, their drains will be built, soling will be done, their roads will be built, maybe their children will also get a job somewhere, so our politics has become like this that we think that if we have to get votes then we have to get a road built or a drain built or a job given or a transfer done. Then we will get the vote. So where you are working with limited resources, the thing that is valuable there is who will get the resources and if they make you that and vote for you then you are hopeful that there will be some improvement for them, Sir, this is the argument and not that this is a public political demand. According to that, because of our legislators, we are

3:55 not allowing the local governments to come forward. We believe that if local governments come together, they will share resources with us. Whatever is with us, it will do it to the people the way we apply it, then it is not in our control. Okay Sir then basically this is the weakness of the legislators. If they give political awareness to the people and tell them that these certainties will be of the legislators. Certain functions will be conducted by representatives of the local government and if the governance works like this, then people can come. We cannot tell people that we have designed our political system according to their demands. Radha is a principal, our political system should be designed around her. Sir, the issue is that here, the awareness is

4:41 not yet present in the people that they would tell them that your function, your work has to be done as per the function. The demand that I have from you is that how can you help me. That means there is only me and what will happen to me. It is very difficult for us to think about anything bigger than that. Now let me tell you that when the police took away a certain guy, people came to me saying that the guy is innocent so let's talk to him. So I talked to the police and they said let us check it. I said, okay, you can check it. Those who want clarification from them or will give it. So that person again came to me and said, no sir, some other people are also doing it for him. If it does not get released through us then let it remain inside. So I said, friend, you are talking too much. We are just

5:26 trying to free the guy. He is lying inside. I am in trouble. He said no sir, if it cannot be brought through us then let it remain inside. Well Sir, if we take our debate to a conclusion, then Sir, in democracy, the political party is a fundamental organization. Now, his capacity is there, now we were saying on individual level that these legislators should be like this, should be like this. Now we look at the responsibility of political parties. Now Sir, the definition of a political party, the fundamentals of its structure, if you bring it to even the definition of a political party, then that is not such a healthy political party, that too has centralized leadership, you can also call that democratic kingship Sir, Sir, it is similar to this, the parties that you have, your political parties could not become institutions, they are

6:15 personality centric, you can call them cults or groups. The point is that we have not yet reached that level where we talk about democracy. Our political parties are not democratic. Rather, this one is It Goes To The Roots. We are not democratic even in our homes. We have a difference even in our homes. We value our son more. There is more respect for the daughter. All the people in the house are not equal. There is a big one. Now things are changing. There is an independence within the people gradually as this culture is changing. The culture is changing. With this social media initiative, people's horizons are becoming bigger. It has its advantages as well as disadvantages. Restored a change thing. Well Sir, there is

7:02 another very important topic in this, on which there has not been much discussion in Pakistan. What is the relationship like between that political party and its legislator or its prospective candidate? Now political parties often say that our legislators leave us. And the legislators say that there is no growth in our party. Because we know its leadership that this is there, after this this will happen, after this this will happen. So a big marriage of inconvenience goes on between them. But Sir, if we bring the perspective of political parties in front of you, their only interest is that they want horses. They want electables to tell me that if there are 266 constituencies, I have more than 100 strong candidates. Now Sir, it has become

7:49 difficult even in cities because unless you invest money you are not going to win elections. There are so many things. So Sir, their motive is to give ticket to the person who can win the seat for them and they know that once he wins, we will get the legislation controlled by some experts and through bureaucracy we will keep running the Governor system Sir. Now Sir, this perspective of the political party regarding its legislators cannot prove to be very beneficial for democracy because there is no growth of legislators or political workers in it Sir. Sir, see, when you talk about democracy, the idealistic democracy is that every individual within it has the capacity to do decision making.

8:34 We have Fard-e-Vaid, especially in the rural areas, there is no existence of Fard-e-Vaid, he cannot survive, he has to belong to some group, some community, some group because basically we cannot exchange him or protect him and if he does not have that group, he will be killed in the evening, if his neighbour does not have good relations with him then he will be eaten by wolves at night. So when you are existing in terms of hearts and in these groups and in that way then your survival there happens in the same way that you survive in a group and its leader

9:20 tries to somehow come to power so that he can do something for his group. Sir, now we come back to the discipline and performance of our Parliament and our provincial assemblies. Now sir if you see the executive part. There are ministers. The ministers get ready and go to their office every day. Let's work. Brocracy goes to her office in the morning. She works in the evenings as best she can. If he is on leave then he gets his job. They have to work. Sir, our judiciary too will go in the morning, come back in the evening and work. Now Sir, if we talk about Punjab Assembly specifically as a case study, as a legislature. Now Sir, the law here is that those who are taking monthly salary also have end privileges, which may be

10:06 less or more than others, so Sir it cannot be that now it is assembly time at 9:00 in the morning and the assembly will be there till 5:00 in the afternoon, there will be a break in between, so they must remain there for 6 hours to legislature or go and check the committee business in it, check the parliamentary oversee, their attendance should be taken properly, if they do not mark their attendance then their membership can also be terminated, now we often see that there are many Sir legislators who do not go to the assembly. Discipline is executive discipline. If there is discipline in judiciary then why is there no discipline in our legislature? That at present our budget court is going on and the attendance is done with great difficulty. The purpose is that the quorum is completed but it is

10:52 surprising to see the interest that I was telling you earlier that we come after fighting the elections, we come after fighting and then we come to sit in the Parliament but we do not like to sit in the Parliament. Now this is beyond my understanding that either look, there is a minister, he has a portfolio, he is going to his office, he is busy, now for example, if I am an MP, I am a backbencher, I am not a part of the treasury, then for me the source or the place, which is my home, is the Parliament, so I should not step out of it, my respect is there, my identity is there, for the purpose, I have nothing other than that, but I do not understand why they do this, Sir, you have become a very good Parliamentary Lodge. Hostels have been built. Then there is petrol also. Then sir there is salary. No nos, that's

11:40 enough. And more of them are being added. Whatever shortages there are are being met. Yes. Now Sir, there are 371 members of Punjab Assembly, Sir. Now Sir, when it is your court then there should be at least 300 members. Because if you look at any human resources organization. Punjab Punjab Punjab Assembly is also a human resource organization. Now any public can look at the organization, whether it is a judicial organization or an executive organization, I am not talking about the private organization. If he has a staff of 371 and they are taking salary, then in any case 300 people will be included in it. There should not be any such issue in which if we talk about Punjab Assembly, Sir, if there are 371 members, then there will be 20, 25, 30. So if there is this seriousness of our legislature, then the gaps will be

12:26 filled in by the executive and the judiciary, sir. Today I started talking jokingly about point of order but then some serious issue came up in between. Then I did not consider it appropriate. I started saying that we should have some counselors who can motivate us. Please explain it to us. I said, I know of two-three assemblies in the world where they provide counsellors, whoever are their members, they sit with them and talk, they discuss their stress, so I did talk about it, but I then said that it will be a matter of gossip but there is a need for motivation, the members are fun-loving, they have become members again and again,

13:12 we have a member who has become an elected member eight times, so there should be a little bit of feeling, Sir, if there is no feeling about this, then as a citizen of Pakistan, I would like to know whether there is feeling or not, but the feeling of discipline, it should be implemented by our Speaker Sahab or whoever our judicial, our legislative oversight is. Sir, see, now the gap in it is that if your government, your leadership maintains its interaction and maintains its connection, then people show interest. Many times it happens that they are so busy with their own matters that they

13:58 cannot interact much with the members. He also has issues. They are also under a constant pressure. But until your leadership does not give you a lift and does not give you support, then your Shepherd is not paying that attention to you. Then those sheep and goats keep moving here and there. Yes you are absolutely right Sir that the political parties should also keep an oversight on the performance of their legislators. Now Sir, let us move towards the last part of the program and conclude it. Sir when we talk about parliamentary oversight. We have talked too much about legislation. Sir, when you ask some questions on point of orders , you raise some issues. Ah, we hold Cabinet members or their representatives accountable.

14:43 Sir, what improvement does that bring to the departments ? Sir, look, the thing is that whenever you ask for betterment, whenever you write Ruka, it will definitely have an impact. His answer will definitely come. Whether that answer is right or wrong is a different matter. But there will definitely be a process. Somewhere or the other, someone who is there will have to be a little tight-lipped and tell him that this question has been asked. Now this has to be answered. So if questions are asked again and again and you are not satisfied with the answers. If you then question that answer then as a part of a process eventually things have to be rolled out somewhere or the other. Sir, when we talk about parliamentary governance,

15:28 it is basically cabinet governance. Now in the executive part the cabinet ah is the most powerful. If we look at its legislation, the legislative part, when we talk about legislature, sir it is basically a committee system because without strong committees, good executive oversight cannot happen. Now Sir, many committees are notified in the Punjab Assembly also. It happens in the Federation as well. It happens in other states too. Who have to oversight the departments. Have to oversee the executive. So sir, how much need is there to strengthen the committees ? Sir, it is very much needed and it has been done. The changes that our speaker sir has made and along with that the committees that we have at present within the federation are almost eighty-four.

16:13 So a lot of work is going on. Now the only thing is that till now, again, I talked about that there are capacity building issues, as of now neither do we have staff available nor do we have space available. But work is being done on it and work is being done rapidly and it is almost complete that everything will be made available to us and despite the absence of those things, a rapid process of committees is going on and I had invited you also and I also invite those who listen and watch us that our sessions are also live on YouTube and the proceedings of our committee are also live. They are live and their records are also available. You can see and you will see that the questioning that takes place in it, the

17:00 interest that is there in your representatives, it is amazing. To tell you the truth, I am amazed that very serious, pointed and directed questioning is taking place and our bureaucrats, our officers, they too have to be prepared that it should not happen that he will just push you around and go away. There, they have to answer. If he does not answer then he is told to come next time and give his answer after preparing it. Sir, there is also a culture. If you look at the judiciary, the judges are like this knit among themselves. He watches his interests very well. Even if you look into brokerage, an officer from the same batch is a favourite of a political party. When another political party comes to power, the other man from the same batch becomes its favourite.

17:47 And they both work for each other. Like in Punjabi it is not said to wear the marrow of the head. But when we come to politicians, when we come to political parties, they are so opposed to each other that their joint interest, legislative interest, even the owner of legislature, they do not meet, this is the basic fissure due to which our parliamentary, you will be surprised on that again, I am saying the same thing, if you see the proceedings of our committees, you will be surprised that people of all parties are sitting and there is no fight of any kind among them, nor any kind of serious conversation is taking place, which is I am telling you that it is very surprising and if you want to see the truth of democracy

18:34 at work or your legislators at work, then you should see the committee meetings, you should not see our court, you should see our committee meetings and you will be happy to see the pictorial evidence of the court, from the side of the political parties and There is demand and there is more demand for those who are working inside. Sir, last question, how can the politicians in Pakistan be empowered ? Anyway, such words should not be used at all. His privilege is legislative privilege because he has to lead the legislature also. He also has to lead the judiciary. He also has to lead the executives. Despite

19:20 checks and balances the supremacy rest with the Parliament because the sovereignty belongs to the people. To as a delegated trust. So Sir, what do you think about how the politicians in Pakistan can be made stronger or brought into their due role ? He himself has to recognize himself, yes he has to recognize himself. He has to understand that I have been powered and I am empowered and I do not have to go and lie down before anyone. The power that I actually have is mine and that itself is a matter of awareness. It is important to understand that I have been given the power. The state has given me this opportunity after I have been elected. The state has given me the power and to understand that and be aware of it and then see

20:05 how to create your own space, you have to do that yourself. That was done by your legislator himself, but sir, your challenge is very big. All the power players and politicians are very soft targets. There is a lot of propaganda on it. This is sheer propaganda of bureaucracy. This is intense propaganda by our institutions. This is sheer propaganda by the media. Our other socio-cultural institutions have a very strong propaganda. So sir, it is a challenge to counter this propaganda and then come back to your actual leading position. No, look at evolve, whenever you have to evolve, it is a challenge. When you think about your old thoughts, you have to eliminate them and develop a new thought, then that evolution does not happen like this.

20:51 A lot of effort is required behind it when you have to evolve yourself and then the evolution is necessary for your survival. If you do not evolve now, then the same condition will continue to happen to you and you will have to work overtime and we are doing it and it is very surprising and a matter of joy that we are evolving. At least one part of us is a certain now for example all the legislators are there. I will not talk about everyone. But there is a certain proportion and that is a very big proportion. I I would even dare to say that one-third, at least one-third, it is going through the evolutionary process and they are rising and it is a treat to watch. Okay sir, thank you very much. Thank you very much Tariq sahab. Nazreen, today we

21:37 talked about legislation from the platform of Republic Policy and because Republic Policy, as the name suggests, is working on democratic governance in which empowerment of people can happen only when the politicians are empowered in Pakistan. If you like our channel, please like it and subscribe. Thank you very much. Allah Hafiz. [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC]