Unity Panel: Black in AA, The History of Black Groups in AA

0:00 All right, my name is Chase and I'm an alcoholic. All right, so tonight we have a panel that will be highlighting the founding of early black AA groups across the United States during the 1946 and 1947 period including groups in Los Angeles, St. Louis, Washington D.C., Newark, New Jersey, New York City and Charleston, South Carolina helping preserve and share an important part of AA history, black and AA experience, strength and hope and that is a pamphlet that can be found on aa.org. There is documented evidence, however, of black alcoholics seeking sobriety just five years after the founding of AA in 1935.

0:45 As early as 1940, Bill, AA's co-founder, had drawn fire for inviting two black alcoholics to attend meetings in the New York area. It was more or less decided that the Negroes should be invited to attend open or closed group meetings as visitors. That is in Pass It On, page 317. Furthermore, a May 5, 1940 article in a Washington D.C. newspaper, The Sunday Star, confirms the existence of a colored group in Arlington, Virginia. An older member is a lumberman who feels Alcoholics Anonymous has corrected his illness. A prominent businessman in the group has established a colored chapter that meets every Thursday night in an Arlington, Virginia church.

1:30 Finding that some of his employees needed help to find freedom from rum, he has taken them to AA meetings. Ever since that time, black alcoholics have been active in carrying the AA message in both integrated and segregated meetings and that is from page six in the black and AA pamphlet. And tonight, I want to welcome our panelists. We have Lee S. whose home group is the Cosmopolitan group in Washington, D.C. and Jackie B from San Francisco, California, whose home group is women who are too much. Without further ado, I would like to introduce Lee, who who begin the panel. Thank you. >> Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Lee and I'm an alcoholic. And it

2:15 is indeed a pleasure for me to be here with you all this evening. And what you see on the screen is some information I thought was pertinent to this evening's presentation. After the Civil War and I think all of us know that Civil War was about slavery and that sort of thing. And then there was some discussion about, well, who's going to do what? Well, there's established what you're looking at is what's called the Mason-Dixon Line and that celebrates the north from the south. And a lot of people didn't know that Washington D.C. is considered the south. The Mason-Dixon Line separates Pennsylvania from Delaware down to Maryland, down to D.C., Virginia, and

3:02 etc. So, I thought that was pertinent to get this thing started. Uh you can move that now, please. Uh now, I've been asked to share with you all >> [clears throat] >> my experience as being a member of the Cosmopolitan Group. I've been sober over 50 years and I've been a member of that group 49 of my 50 years. I joined Cosmopolitan, I think it was in November of 1977. The [clears throat] theme this evening is blacks in AA. And for the benefit of those that not yet had the experience and our basic text, that's the second, third, and fourth edition, uh one of the personal stories is Dr.

3:49 Jim's and if you've not read it, let me just share with you the end of his story where he talks about him and his wife, finally got a room at the YMCA here in Washington D.C. And for the for the first 6 months or so, nobody would show up. Well, what does that really mean? Well, the beginning of the story talks about how how this lady that lived in D.C. named Ella Ella knew a white man named Charlie. And somehow or another, ladies and gentlemen, Ella knew that Charlie was a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. And she also knew that Jim S. needed help.

4:35 She decided to ask Charlie to come to her house to meet with Jim S. And Charlie said, "Oh, yeah." From what I could read and understand, Charlie was very open to it. So, Ella got Jim to come to her house. And she asked him, "Look, I got somebody I want you to meet, and I want you to be sober." And Jim managed to do that. Charlie came, told him his story, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is the beginning of how black folk got the message of hope in Washington, D.C. So, after that meeting Jim was excited about the hope that Charlie had given him and asked Charlie would he come back and

5:21 talk to him some more, and Charlie agreed. And Jim S. started to talk to other black folks in the community that needed help. Now, mind you, this is Washington, D.C. in 1945. >> [clears throat] >> The word got out without our technology. You stay mindful of the era in which this was occurring. The word got out in the black community here in D.C. And before you knew it, Ella's house was full of black folk, and Charlie was showing up talking to them. So, we got so crowded that they moved from Ella's house to Ella's mother's house. And the group kept growing, and somebody came up with the idea, well, why don't we ask the church for some space?

6:09 And lo and behold, they went out, not knowing who, but they went out and asked several churches, and from what I can read and understand, all of the churches thought it was a noble idea, but none of the churches were open to the idea of of having a group like that meet in their facility. So, they ended up at the YMCA here in Washington, DC, and that's where they holding their first AA meetings in the YMCA, and Charlie continued to come, and Charlie got other white members continuing to come. Now, along with this era of [clears throat] trying to get the group established, there was this law that existed in Washington, DC, and most of South [clears throat] America at the time, called Jim Crow.

6:58 And Jim Crow's laws made it very clear about segregation and how it's to be honored and respected. And that means separate water fountains, separate bathrooms separate separate separate. So, I want to go back to when uh Jim Scott and and Vi were talking about how nobody came to the Y for the first 6 months. What happened, what I found out from talking to some of the older members, is that in Ella's house and Ella's mother's house, they felt a sense of security. They felt safe. So, when they moved to the Y, that's a public place, and they were a little apprehensive about going, about being

7:44 seen, about being affiliated. So, it took a while, but eventually they started to go and the group started to grow there in the Y and Charlie and Fitz and some of the other white members not only came, but they helped the group learn how to do 12-step work and they helped pay the rent, which was $2 per meeting. And again, ladies and gentlemen, this is in 1945 here in Washington D.C. Only one member of the group had a car and that was Julius S. And by the way, I had an opportunity to meet personally and Julius was sober 31 years when I met him and he was one of the original members of the Cosmopolitan Group. So, here is what happened from the YMCA.

8:31 I don't remember how long they met there, but I do remember that they eventually moved from the YMCA into Petworth Church. Ladies and gentlemen, for as long as I've been a member of Cosmopolitan, I thought for years that of this new generation and what I consider the new generation or the second generation is from 1935 until 1971. 1920 June 24th, 1971 is when Bill Wilson died. I call that the first generation. I came into AA in the second generation. And so, now with the the group is meeting in the Petworth Church on Grant Circle here in Washington D.C. And I thought that I was the longest

9:18 member but after the pandemic a lady surfaced who I had heard about, but I didn't really have an opportunity to meet and her name is Lorraine and I've let her know about this meeting. I'm not sure if she's here with us or not but Lorraine joined Cosmopolitan when it met in Prattworth Church in 1973. I That's what she told me. The Cosmopolitan was meeting in Prattworth Church after they left Hawaii in 1973. Now, if you've not yet heard this about how how a meeting gets started, how a groups gets started, and there is a distinction between some a meeting and a group. Cosmopolitan is a group. After our second year of existence,

10:05 uh Jim Scott wrote New York and asked to be registered as a group. That's when we also changed our name uh the the uh the Washington uh I can't recall it now, but we were given the name of the Colored Group. And because of be because of Charlie and Fitz, we learned how to take a group how to have a group conscience. And because of Charlie and Fitz and the other white members that came to help us learn how to do 12-step work and and and how to how to traditions were made. Because of that, then it became obvious to us that we weren't a colored group, and we weren't a black group. We were an integrated

10:51 group. And that was our request to New York. We changed our name from the Colored Group that had been given us to the Cosmopolitan Group that we established for ourselves. And Cosmopolitan, one of its definition is inclusion. And to the best of my knowledge, we are the first integrated group in Alcoholics Anonymous. Not the first black group, the first integrated. And that's the impact that Charlie and Fitz and the other members had on us and for us. So, here is the kicker that goes along with what happened. Something that I've Nobody's been able to tell me. No I've been able to do any research to find out what happened in

11:36 the Petworth Church. But something happened and some of the members decided that they didn't want to deal with one another anymore. So some of the members took the name and the podium and moved. And they moved into People's Congregational Church and the members that stayed became the Petworth Group. And that was sometime between 1974 and 1976. That's when that occurred where the members left Petworth and moved to People's Congregational Church and the members that stayed became the Petworth Group. So if if in fact you want to call a black group, it very well could be the Petworth Group cuz Cosmopolitan has

12:23 never been a black group per se. So now we have a new Cosmopolitan Group in a different location at 13th and Crittenden Street Northwest here in Washington D.C. Now mind you, we're an integrated group. I don't know when it was. I'm thinking early '80s. One of the church >> [laughter] >> One of the church members saw a white guy coming in to set up the meeting for us. >> [laughter] >> He reported it to the pastor. And the pastor wanted to meet with us. So Charlie Smith, Dickie Spencer took me to this meeting with with Pastor Stanley

13:08 Knight of People's Congregational Church and he wanted to know why there was a white person in our group. >> [laughter] >> He didn't understand AA and he certainly didn't understand us. And we they they meaning Charlie and Dickie explained to him the principles of AA, particularly the 12th tradition. And don't forget now, principles above personalities. Listen to Listen to me tell you that Charlie not only rose above principles above personality, but he rose above segregation. You see, when he helped us get started and we I keep telling you that the white folks came to support us, they knew we

13:56 couldn't go to their meetings, but they came to support us at ours. They came to the wire, they came up to Petworth, they came to Cosmopolitan. There's no documentation that I've ever heard of, ladies and gentlemen, where it changed where black folks could go to white meetings. But nevertheless, after Stanley Knight found out that we had white folks in our group, he was not a happy camper. And he said to us, "Well, I don't understand why they can't go to their meetings." And Dicky and Charlie explained to him how we operated. Sometime after that, Peoples Congregational Church went under some kind of renovation, and we had to find another location.

14:41 And in finding another location, we first went back to Petworth, and we went there for a while, but Dr. Stanley Knight would not let us come back to Peoples Congregational Church. So, we met at Petworth for a while, and I don't remember what happened. Then we moved to Sacred Heart. And then we were in Sacred Heart for a while, and by by the time time is is changing and moving on, and then we had a we had a couple in our group, Bill and Michelle Harris, and they knew this new pastor that just got a church up on Georgia Avenue, 6100 block of Georgia Avenue, called Emory United Methodist Church and his name is

15:26 uh I knew it till I just said that. Anyway, we had Bill and and and Michelle went and met with him, told him that we needed a place to meet. He opened us He welcomed us with open arms and the group moved into United Methodist Church in April of 1993. And that's where we That's where we met until that church went under renovation and then we moved up to uh I've already gone it. It'll come back to me. But let me let me back up and and and share [clears throat] some it significant points about us in the early

16:11 stages. And when I say early, when I got to Cosmopolitan in 1977, there were a lot of things going on in the city and and I'm not speaking on behalf of black folks. I'm not talking on behalf of the black community, but I can tell you with absolute certainty what was going on in my neighborhood and what was going on in some pockets of Washington D.C. And there was, according to Jim Law, Jim >> [clears throat] >> Excuse me. There was this thing called the Sundown Law. And what it meant was is that black folks, men in particular, had to be off the streets by sundown.

16:57 Now, the way that my parents introduced it to me was you got to be home when the street lights come on. Now, I didn't understand about segregation at the time. I wasn't taught it about all of the areas and pockets in Washington D.C. where I couldn't go as a kid and I wasn't welcome as an adult, but that's part of the experience. So, when we talk about the early stages of AA Cosmopolitan's development, there was a lot of people that went through a lot of changes to come to the group at Ellis House, Ellis' mother's house, that were reluctant to come to the wire, but they eventually did because of the sundown law. So, when you

17:42 hear in AA's language, "What length are you willing to go through?" That's part of what the growth and the experience was of what was happening. So now one of the members of Cosmopolitan met a guy that needed some help. He got him some help. And then, his his name was Jesse Hawkins. He was a member of Cosmopolitan. And Jesse Hawkins moved over to Northeast DC, talked to a member of another church, and got that member Chase, are you getting ready to tell me to stop? >> Yes, just a gentle reminder that you have 2 minutes. >> Okay.

18:28 All right. Well, let let me just close by letting you know that there was another group started in Northeast at the Atonement Church, and that in 1956, and that became the Mid East Group. And there again, there was another group for black folk in Washington DC. So, now you got Petworth, you got Cosmopolitan, Petworth, Mid East. They got mad at each other in Mid East, and that became Near East in 1868. And these are some of the groups and some of the growings of what it was to be black, get sober in AA, and to prosper from 1945 until today. And Chase said my time is up. So

19:15 So I can't can't tell you all the rest of it. But if I had more time, I got more information. So Chase, thank you for the opportunity. >> Thank you, Wayne. All right. So now we're going to segue into hearing Jackie B share a bit about the history of Black AA groups. >> Hi everyone. My name is Jackie. I'm an alcoholic. >> That was incredible, wasn't it? I could have listened to that forever. Um and it's a real blessing to have the you know, the second generation carrying on that oral tradition of the first generation. And it's our responsibility and we enter the third generation third generation to keep that going. And um

20:03 I just want to say like I'm very grateful to be here tonight. Um I I I this is research I had started doing in 2000 um 9 when I was 3 years sober and I was interested in the history of many different kinds of underserved um groups uh as a part of part of my interest for different personal reasons um uh including young people, women, queer people um and I had the opportunity to start doing this uh presentation with Vera F in 2020. Uh if you ever have an opportunity to see Vera do this presentation, it's incredible. I wish you could have been here tonight. Um but

20:50 I'm glad that I could be here to share some of this history and these pictures. Um I also wanted to say that uh the slides will have certain words to refer to how black folks were uh referred to uh during the time period. I will not be using those words unless I am reading primary documentation. So, um Now, I will share my screen. the meeting as observers only. And this became the experience that was passed on to groups and individuals who soon began writing to the AA headquarters asking for advice on how to deal with the influx of black alcoholics asking for

21:38 help in their areas and the tensions it began to create in their AA groups. So, the admittance of black alcoholics as observers, but not group members, was widely practiced in the 1940s, '50s, and '60s. Uh this is a letter referred to in Pass It On. So, this is a letter that Bill wrote in response to a white member who wrote to him uh concerned about segregation in AA in AA meetings. And Bill wrote, "In all the South and in most of the North, whites refused to mingle with blacks socially. That is a stark fact we have to face. Nor can they be coerced or persuaded to to so, even alcoholics. I tell each fellowship to abide by the wishes of the majority of its members. And if a group refuses Negroes socially, it ought to

22:24 make a superhuman effort to help each single colored case to a group of his own." Now, let's compare this to the story of the poor devil in Akron Group 1937 that we may know from the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, um who had an addiction worse stigmatized than alcoholism, which we know from the conference-approved um book uh Grapevine Responsibility and a 1968 talk that Bill gave at the General Service Conference, that that addiction was that he was a sex deviant, which actually is a legal term that refers to a sexual act between two men. So, he was a gay man. He was a white gay man. And what was the response because at the time having an admitted homosexual come

23:11 into a group would have been something that, you know, would have turned away many alcoholics who if they had found out the lives of many alcoholics could have been at stake. And so, this was something that the group conscience seized and boiled and people asked, "Shouldn't we sacrifice this one for the sake of the many?" And Dr. Bob famously said, "What would the master do? Would he turn this man away?" Think about the origin of our third tradition, but this is the comparison and this is what I want us to sit with as we hear this history is that in 1937 a white gay man comes to Akron and they say, "We'll make you part of our group." And in 1942 two black alcoholics come

23:59 and they are admitted as observers and told to make their own group. So, early black groups really started forming that we know of documented early black groups after World War II, which is also kind of marked an important period in the civil rights movement as well. And so, this is actually the documented timeline that we know for early black groups was actually in 1945 St. Louis followed by Chicago followed by the Cosmopolitan group in Washington D.C. The St. Louis group is actually the first documented black group that we know of and their story they were called the A1 group or the AA1 group is not really

24:44 clear in the the research, but they were formed in January 1945 in St. Louis and their existence was kept a secret at their own request. Harold W. the secretary wrote to AA headquarters, which is what we call GSO today. And they He wrote, "I hope you can prevail upon the grapevine to postpone any publicity about the activity here of our colored group. We are pestered to with current racial problems and prejudices that exist because of this problem until our internal affairs on the subject can be better defined and a more tolerant viewpoint is accepted by all. We propose to shun publicity and handle this problem with our group." So, essentially, they were afraid of the backlash that they would receive from the white AAs in St. Louis. And I think,

25:30 you know, um the word pestered is probably a euphemism for the very real physical threat that they were encountering um by gathering together under the name Alcoholics Anonymous because at this time AA groups or chapters were really looked at as a part of a fraternal organization, almost like the Shrine or Moose, right? You were part of this fraternal organization. Uh groups would have membership cards. They would You know, talk about before the uh traditions were published, they had emblems, they had plaques. I mean, they had colors, you know, group colors. And so, for uh white members to be a part of an organization that had black chapters meant they were part of an interracial society. And to And that is why um

26:16 many white alcoholics AA members could not even tolerate the idea of there being black AA groups at all. And so, it was a very real threat in the St. Louis group um had to meet in secret and it did not last very long at all. Uh unlike the Chicago, the Evanston Avenue group, which um started in 1945, um and it was the second black group that we know of the United States, started in March. Um and uh they uh their founding member was a black man named Earl R. Uh it's still ongoing and going strong in Chicago today. Uh now they meet in the 825 Club. Um and they were also assisted. So, very similar to the

27:03 Cosmopolitan Group. In fact, Earl T, who was the founder of AA in Chicago, was one of the um members who helped with the group get started. So, um >> [clears throat] >> uh I think you can really see kind of a difference with how much the support of the white members and the older white members um having in those early black groups really did make a difference. Um and this is an article by the Grapevine, um which is really interesting that tells us a lot about the Chicago Group. This is from the 1951 Grapevine, um which had a special section on Chicago. And it says, "Chicago adheres to the basic AA tenets that the only requirements for membership is the desire to stop drinking and that creed, race, or sex, or social divisions have

27:50 no place in the fellowship. It must not be thought that the members of the Evans Avenue groups remain apart from the mainstream of Chicago activity. Negro members serve ably on the various committees of the Chicago Group as a whole, which is very fascinating because means that um that it was also the service structure was integrated, which means there were black members also serving on various committees, which is not only which is a really interesting thing and is something we even talked about today. It's not only having the representation of black votes in AA as a as a whole, but what about our service structure? How are black um members represented even in our service structure, in our conference, in our intergroups, you know? Um and so to read that about the Chicago Group um and Chicago AA was

28:39 really fascinating. Um we got a whole big lesson about the Cosmopolitan Group and Dr. Jim, but I I thought I would share some of these pictures with uh Lee's blessings. So, this is a picture of the um early members of the Cosmopolitan group, and we believe that Jim is in the middle right there. Um and right in front of him is his uh his wife uh Vi. Um and so, that's one of the pictures um we believe we have of Dr. Jim um from the Cosmopolitan archives possible calling group. And that's the Anthony Bowen YMCA, which is actually really important for many historical reasons. Langston Hughes stayed there. It's It's a really fascinating place. So, many historical

29:24 firsts and greats stayed there as well as well as the Cosmopolitan group. Also, and one of the things uh I think Lee mentioned, but part of the success of the Cosmopolitan group was all the public information work they did. Um they they actually helped start a clinic. Um and they did a ton of work with that. And so, um one of the things you'll also see with the a lot of the uh black groups was public information work with black press and and also working with institutions, hospitals, and corrections um was also a big part of how it helped spread um particularly the black groups. So, being secret actually works really again it was really doesn't work well um not only for like the safety and and you know, part of that, but also getting the

30:10 word out really needed to do a lot of things in the public needed to um it was really important part of this. Um I'm going to want to talk about the Arthur Wate group, which I'm sure I'm saying wrong. Um I say a lot of words wrong even the ones that I know. So, I'm sure I'm saying this wrong wrong, but this is um one of the early black groups that I not only find historically significant, but incredibly um important and inspiring is the this Cleveland group, which didn't start until May 1946, but to me it's a group that was founded um by 23-year-old black woman. And I spent years um when I first started doing this research looking for the story of an early black woman.

30:56 And it was next to impossible. Like um it was incredibly hard. Um and finally I came across uh the story of Ruth H from Cleveland. Um and finding out it was connected to Cleveland's first group um [clears throat and snorts] was incredible. And I'm so happy that Ruth's story is now in the introduction to the black and AA pamphlet. So please get it and read it. And I'm just so glad that she's really being recognized now for um what she's done and how incredible she is. Cuz again she's an important young person in AA. She's an important woman in AA. And she's an important young black woman in our history. Um So I believe this is a picture of her.

31:42 It's unverified. This is based on genealogical research I did. Um that's a stock photo of her. But she was a 23-year-old nurse. She got sober in Cleveland in mid-1945. There were no interracial black groups in Cleveland at the time. Um I don't know much about her early sobriety and who her sponsor was. Um but [clears throat] according to the Cleveland Intergroup records, after she got sober she devoted 6 months of intense effort in overcoming prejudice and suspicion of motive. So if that's what the like white folks were writing in their records, you can only imagine maybe what she was actually dealing with. And um she she persisted. Which is incredible. So um let's talk about the environment that

32:27 she was in. Um so at the time she was getting sober in Cleveland in mid-1945, the Cleveland AA group the AA group with the Intergroup um because the mother group was kind of a big part of that, was producing an annual minstrel show as entertainment and fundraiser. Minstrel shows were 19th and early 20th century American theatrical performance where white actors used blackface makeup to play out racialized stereotypes that mocked and demeaned black folks as a form of entertainment. And I also want to state for any uninformed apologists that by 1940s minstrel shows were very much old hat. They were no longer a popular form of entertainment by this time, though the cultural stereotypes

33:14 that helped create that they helped create endure to this day. And this was the community that Ruth A. Jones as a 23-year-old black woman trying to get and stay sober. The Cleveland AA group held a minstrel show for at least two years, another two years, which includes the year after the founding of their first black group. So, how did that group start in this kind of environment? Well, Ruth, on her own, wrote and submitted a series of informative articles on AA for the Cleveland Call and Post, a popular black newspaper. Similar to Dr. Jim's effort in Washington, D.C., public information cooperation with the professional community, PICPC work, was instrumental in growing Cleveland's first black group. She started getting phone calls

34:01 and meeting with other black alcoholics, and from what I could find, they were men who were much older than her. And she she worked with them. She continued posting articles and announcements about AA in the black press and answering 12-step calls. So, in response to that there were more black alcoholics joining AA by working with Ruth, the country's oldest, um, this is the Cleveland Call Bulletin, their their, uh, Cleveland AA newsletter, which is actually the country's oldest AA newsletter preceding the AA Grapevine by two years. Um they published an editorial, their central office published an editorial called The Color Line, and they encouraged efforts but were discouraging fraternization between the races. So

34:47 I'll read um this quote um from this central office newsletter. We believe the answer should lie in recognizing that there is a racial difference and for everybody's peace of mind develop their own groups on the AA principles. And this is very interesting. Uh this is this is a choice and drive out resentment from their hearts as well as the wrong feeling that we deny them the right to enjoy the same privileges that we enjoy. Yep. So um but after a year of intense 12-step calls and PI work, Ruth A should help sober up three other black alcoholics. On May 31st, 1946, she and her three sponsees held the

35:33 first official AA meeting for black AAs in Cleveland. This is an announcement that was in the Cleveland uh Central Bulletin. She wrote to New York headquarters in 1946, and she uh wrote, "Yes, we now have a colored group in Cleveland. It is small, but it is growing slowly but surely. The struggle is hard, but we know it is worth the while. We now have a group of eight members." So in one month, they doubled their uh >> [clears throat] >> group. And uh the last thing I want to say, they continued to do their um articles and um uh in the 1950s, she helped open one of the first treatment centers serving black alcoholics, Forest City Al Watney Rehabilitation Center for Alcoholics. She reportedly traveled to Akron, Ohio

36:18 to help start a black group there in the birthplace of AA. She passed away a sober member of AA in 1962 at the tragically young age of 46. And in terms of you may be saying, well, what about New York? New York um did not have a a group until 1947. Um and uh it there were black alcoholics attending the Greenwich Village Group, which is now known as the Perry Street Workshop. Um and after a pretty scathing um article in a black newspaper called the New Amsterdam News criticizing AA for um its Jim Crow uh segregation of black and white groups and

37:04 uh interestingly uh as uh Bill famously said, our critics are friends. And I think the New York Group took some stock and some members uh decided to get together and um with the help of some wealthy uh white members, the St. Nicholas Group of Alcoholics Anonymous was established in 1947. One of those members was Barry L, who was uh home group was the Perry Street Workshop, and he helped start um >> [clears throat] >> the uh St. Nicholas Group with five black members from uh the Greenwich Village Group. So, uh I'm very grateful to have told some of this story. Uh please get the Black and AA pamphlet. It's got a rich history in it. I want to thank Lee again

37:51 um so much. Uh Vera has some great talks online um Carrying the Message to the Black um and African-American Alcoholic. Uh you can look that up, Vera F, and uh thank you so much. >> And Vera is online. >> Oh. >> Yeah. All right. So, as we bring this session to a close, I just want to extend uh a great uh deep gratitude to each of the panelists for sharing their experience with you all.