0:11 So um it would seem like this is a timeless delivery and exposure of what is already, a timeless pointing out of what is and is not. It's only simply this. Timelessly this. There's no process. There's no practice. There's no path to follow in what's being exposed and pointed out here. There's no sense that there's any destination or outcome or goal or conclusion to be made there. There's nothing that needs to happen for this to be the absolute. The absolute is whole. The absolute is unconditional.
0:57 The absolute is without an edge, without time or space. Time and space can appear, but that's relative. [snorts] And the absolute is the really the absence of of relativity of relationship. It's completely all there is. There's nothing there's nothing that needs to be done. Therefore, there's nothing that needs to actually happen or change for that to be the case. Um so what what we're sort of exploring in a sense conceptually but also energetically is the possibility that this is already complete. This is already unconditionally fulfilled. So only relative things can seem to be moved towards or away from. And there's
1:44 nothing wrong with any of that of course but that that really isn't actually what this is about. It's not about I've got something that you can have or I've lost something that you too can lose. There's no sense that there's more or less. There's no sense that there's higher or lower that someone knows what they're talking about or that something is has been achieved. Even though the body sits at the front of a room like this, you know, there's no sense that actually anything is more or less anything else. Not without comparison. And all of that's relative. again. So the absolute it's just total it's just this really it it is just the simplicity of sitting in a living room in Brighton hanging out
2:32 having a chat having a bit of fun with what's being shared playing with terms and concepts asking questions maybe sitting quietly laughing crying getting frustrated getting bored whatever whatever is appearing is aquinomously this [snorts] there's no meaning to any of it. Not without the storytelling. There's no need for a meaning either. There's no need to apply a meaning or a purpose to this which is abundantly whole. Only the storytelling seems to suggest that. Only the storytelling seems to say this is where it came from and this is where it's going. But without that storytelling fantasy energy, there's just sitting. There's just sitting and listening. There's there's sensation and perception and and
3:20 it's all just freely there to appear, but it's not under the illusion that it's actually happening to someone and that someone is orchestrating this on a micro or a macro level. This is abundantly whole and that means there is no real separate observer to this reality. That's where this gets a little bit more if it could be anymore incomprehensible is that there's no such thing as a separate self. Right? So non-duality is exposing and proposing that there is no two, no duality. Well, self demands an other. Self demands a subject and an object which is dualistic. It's a dualistic paradigm and it's an illusion.
4:07 There there is actually no real subjective center to which all of this is happening in front of. It's not distant. It's not distant. Which is why the word immediacy comes up quite a lot because immediacy is not distant and it's not separate. It's not anything other than this. So this doesn't mean it's really really close and it doesn't mean it's near. It's just this. It's not located. It's just this. But it seems like in the totality and the abundant whole of this that energetically a simulated center can seem to appear. And that would feel itself to be like, and I've been using
4:54 this metaphor recently, a whirlwind. It's sometimes called contracted energy. It's sometimes called me or or a center or a dream of orientation, but somehow or other recently it seems to be sort of expressing itself conceptually as a whirlwind. It's a bit like you imagine a tornado that just kind of gathers up an elusory momentum of energy and it feels like it's circulating and revolving. And the reason it seems so like that is because it's it seems to be going round and round and it breeds this illusion of continuity like what's happening is actually moving through time that this that there's
5:41 before this and there's after this and that there's a now which I abide in but I relate to the past and the future as separate and that's a kind of illusory uh energy but it's also So a misconception that there's linearity that there that this reality is actually moving through time and also in that seems to be like awareness of what's happening. So it seems like someone is aware of these words right now or that someone is aware of sitting on a seat or someone is aware of the the little movements and the the the carples and the tarscels [snorts] and that is yeah the illusory whirlwind energy. Yeah.
6:28 Vibrantly pretending or appearing to be that way but there's no substance there. And yet in its kind of dramatic whirlwindish energy, it feels so substantial. It's like it seems so solid and concrete. That's a visceral sense. It feels real and it feels to be located. It feels like it's oriented bodily perhaps energetically. it feels to be wound up in a body and then a body becomes a thing. So that's how the story grows really is that there's something called me and it's located in a human vessel
7:14 and again there's no substance to that and what also seems to come about that is other other certain misperceptions. So the the misperception of individuality that this body actually belongs to someone that there's actually someone inhabiting a human body and they are this kind of person or they are that kind of person. They they adopt identities and that would be a bit like the debris getting sucked into a tornado, a vortex made of essentially nothing. And the storytelling seems to grow out of that just like dust and debris scattered around. No substance there, but identities seem to be really
8:01 really important and meaningful and serious and real and you know substantial. Yeah. And autonomy would be another one. So it seems like energetically there's this whirlwind perhaps fit felt and attached to a human body as such a thing as a human body and that that's actually autonomously located in the brain or the nervous system and that it drives the body. It actually chooses to move, chooses to speak, chooses to think, chooses how to behave. [snorts] And with the identity, it seems all very like a personalized situation. And then perhaps meaning and purpose,
8:46 you know, stories about my life, who I am, what I am, how I should be, uh the society and the cultural societal conditioning that I grow up with as a this kind of person or that kind of person. And then suddenly it seems like there's this whole infrastructure called me and my life and how I should be and who I should be and what I should do and all of it actually revolves around nothing. There's nothing actually at the center of that vortex. It's it's made of nothing. There's absolutely no substance there. It's not even happening. It's extraordinary that all of that could seem so viscerally real and yet there's nothing there. There's nothing there. It's unreal. Completely
9:33 unreal. But nevertheless, [snorts] there can seem to be a setting in of a sort of disease and a sense of lack like something's lacking here. There's some kind of existential burden that someone seems to be suffering and out of that grows seeking, looking for better experiences, looking for wholeness in a thing, a person, a place, a substance, an object, a possession, a state of mind. There's all of this the these things on offer it would seem in the objectified world which I'm distant from and I go towards them to give me a sense of fulfillment and I try and I try and I try harder.
10:20 Yeah. And maybe it's a materialistic search for for a while or maybe it's a spiritual one, a religious one, a philosophical one, a psychological one, an existential one, a shamanic one, a therapeutic. It's so many directions. It's like a buffet. The world, the objectified world is a is a buffet for my senses and my gratification and glorification. But I never really find what I'm actually truly longing for [snorts] because all the time I'm seeking for it. It seems to be a thing in front of me that just elusorily confirms the subject object paradigm and that is samsara. It is the suffering of feeling separate and located and distant.
11:06 Really actually the absolute which is what's longed for is not separate. It's not distant. It's not anything other than this. It's not anything other than what's naturally, ordinarily, and simply appearing to happen. Every time there's a looking for it, in a way, it's overlooking it. It's overlooking it by feeling like it's somewhere else or someone else or in someone else or in something else. But that's just a kind of grabbing really. And there's a kind of anticipatory nature about that too. It's anticipating something. This anticipatory energy of
11:53 what's next or what will be. But again what will be is continuity and continuity is fundamentally part of that illusory cyclic cosmically existential illusurary nothingness. So that treadmill that I the separate self dream run on is just running around with no one at the center of it. No one driving any of that. It's just going round and round in a cyclic loop, an artificial reality, and it's always feeling like something's going to happen. This is going to go somewhere, but it never gets anywhere. It never gets [clears throat] anywhere
12:38 because there is nowhere to go or get to. There's nothing to change. There's nothing to fix. There's nothing to cure. There's nothing to solve. Nothing is broken. No one is ill. No one is distant or separate from this immediacy. It's already total. And in that apparent exposure can seem like a brick wall really a brick wall energy that doesn't really meet the criteria or the demands or the requests on of that seeking energy. It doesn't give it a direction. It doesn't give it hope. It doesn't give it a sense that it's actually going to get somewhere else because it's just pointing out no this is home. This is already home. And there can be a parent resting in that, a basking, a bathing in an
13:26 unknowable wonder, childlike wonder that this is it. It never needed anyone's worship. It never needed any devotion. It never needed that not to happen either. So any meditations or retreats or or you know playful [clears throat] energies of wanting this or going there it's just freely it's just freely appearing but it never gets anywhere that's all it never gets anywhere not absolutely no where would we go this is already >> [clears throat] >> So, um, yeah, we can we can talk around that and we can we can have a bit of a a
14:14 dialogue and a and a play with what comes up for for people in inverted commas. But there are no people to actually figure this out. No one figures it out. This didn't figure it out. Never one never anyone ever figures it. There's nothing to figure out. This isn't a this isn't a jigsaw puzzle. This isn't a a cosmic, you know, puzzle to solve. It's it's just the simplicity. I mean, it's far too simple for comprehension or conceptualization. It just can't be navigated. It can't be negotiated with. There's no transaction. There's nothing to exchange. There's no one to be on the receiving end of this so-called message. It's just the timeless uttering that
14:59 this is already aquinomously and unconditionally home whatever appears to be happening. And so in that I would have to I'm afraid refute even the ideal that a self or centered felt contraction could actually disappear because that too is a story of progression towards an imagined destination. And yes, it can seem like that's what's appearing energetically. It can seem like something is actually waxing or waning or fading. But the idea that that's going to happen in time, that's an illusion. Yeah. [snorts] There's nothing to wait for.
15:44 There's nothing to change. Not without continuity. It's already over. Yeah. >> [cough and clears throat] >> Mhm. Heat.
17:09 Rock and roll. Rock and roll. [laughter] [snorts] >> I love your spell. [snorts] >> It's just It's not serious. Yeah, it's not serious. >> The play can appear to take itself seriously. It can appear to take itself very seriously, but really it's just it's all the cosmic joke that no one finds funny. Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat]
18:19 question. >> Yeah. I'm just curious how did this sort of come about >> um for you? I think I remember some of your story. You were spiritual seeker for a while. >> Uh you saw Tony Parson's. >> Yeah, it was >> Was that towards the end? >> It was the end of everything apparently. this the storyline of Alexis being a separate person which which seemed very important and even telling it might sound like something you know significant or important which obviously it isn't um but the there was a story line which and and this is the story line that it seemed like there was someone and that you know they they did
19:08 meditations and Buddhism and yoga tantra kers studied read books and then you know went from [snorts] teacher to teacher like stepping stone to stepping stone, jump ship, jump ship, find this one, get that guru, what's their name, study this practice, take that initiation, and then I jumped onto one stepping stone called Tony, but that that actually wasn't anything there. And that's when fell through. Yeah. Didn't land on anything. Yeah. And then and in that was just a complete dynamic timeless compassionate exposure that what was longed for this entire time was what is already but it doesn't leave a paddle for a dream which wants
19:55 to steer in a direction. Yeah. The one seeming place in which there was no direction given. And at first that may have seemed quite quite um confusing or or upsetting even, but actually it it was complete compassionate exposure that this is it. You're looking for what is already. Yeah. But you're too invested in the what's next. You're too invested in the conditioned state that you think you can bring about through your own doing. that in the exposure that there's no one running that show and that the absolute can't be moved towards or away from. It's it's just so wide open and no one
20:43 can sustain that or or stand withstand that. Yeah. So it leaves no one really. It leaves no one behind. It actually exposes there already isn't someone. There already isn't a person. Yeah. Yeah. And it's undeniable. And yet it can't be seen by that which is trying in its dream of try a ship. It can't it can't see immediacy. But it's undeniable as though it energetically is is uh palpable and it's yeah it's energetically undeniable that there's no center that there's no self. There's no awareness. There's no one, no
21:28 space, no time, no control. Just this. Yeah. >> Yeah. Total liberation, but not for someone. Yeah. >> And how did that change your personality or tendencies? >> I mean, it just apparently it just is normaly, I would suggest. >> Okay. >> The things just, you know, the neurosis of being a person. If I could somewhat provocatively call it that, the the these neuros these neurotic characteristics of seeking and and wanting something to change or be better to improve or impress etc. It just kind of goes out the window and then this is normaly. Characteristics preferences whatever's
22:14 showing up is just what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Everything is kind of unconditionally allowed. to to just be as it is. Yeah. Yeah. >> Have you discovered this before with >> No, no. I've just I've Yeah. I went to see Tony Parsons and um Yeah, I do think he has. I also feel it with you. This energy field that's quite relaxing. M >> um yeah, it's interesting. >> There's something I I think there's something very relieving in the appearance of it. It's nothing to do
23:00 with a speaker, I would suggest, because there isn't such a thing as a speaker to facilitate something called resonance, but it's as though the there's there's no intention. There's no agenda for anyone to change or become anything or un unbecome anything. Nothing is required. There's no expectations. And that there's kind of it's kind of jarring because everywhere I go as a person, I'm showing up with expectations and an agenda to get somewhere. Even if it's to go to the pub, right? If I'm if I a person, I'm going to the pub. I'm going there to get something. And in this is a not getting anything. And that can seem quite
23:46 disorienting to that energy. But at the same time, it can seem very relieving cuz nothing is required. Yeah. There's no expectation for for anything to be a certain way. Yeah. And that seems to be Yeah. a relief, an existential cosmic relief. So there's no restlessness. Um >> not an existential restlessness. Yeah. That kind of existential restlessness of of subtly or grossly wanting something to happen, needing something to happen. Yeah.
24:37 >> Hello. Hi. >> Um, yeah, it's all very intriguing. I am intrigued. Um, I guess a lot going around my head so much. >> Yeah, it's quite quite something to intro, you know, like there's quite a lot there to take in. >> So, the first thing it was really when you were said about the emptiness, the nothingness and I guess for me was a question around love. >> Where does love feature >> if it does in what you're saying? If I could start with that. Yeah. So unconditional love is all there is. >> Mhm. >> And that's the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's it's the beautiful as well. It's unpolarized because the word unconditional in the way we're really talking about it means unconditional. It
25:23 means absolute. And that is the absence of separation. And separation is an illusion. So unconditional love, it's the total, it's the whole, it's the embrace that everything is this, everything is absolutely this. But that's not a nice kind of love that I want, that I could have, that I could be knowing about or owning. Um it's the it's the you know the the falling away which of course sounds like a process it can't not do but the apparent radical revolutionary collapsing of separate structures that aren't happening. It's undeniable that this this is
26:10 unconditional love. Yeah. Yeah. It's what I always longed for, but I just I couldn't ever know it because I felt separate from it. A bit like when I get severed from my mother when the umbilical cord snips. It's kind of like that's a very symbolic image of me feeling separate from the whole and then suddenly I'm a I'm not suggesting that the umbilical cord snipping is is the birth of personhood. I'm using it as a metaphor. It's like when that cosmic umbilical cord is snipped, suddenly I feel like a subject and my mother feels like an object and then from then on I long I long for love but I search for it in
26:57 things separate from me. But unconditional love, the way I'm talking about it is the absence of separation. Yeah. So I long to come home to that always. So I guess the other place I was thinking is the how we are incarnate as I would at the moment imagine in this body and we have a physical and a metaphysical >> and what you're saying I completely compute into the metaphysical and it's it's actually very calming and relaxing to hear that >> and yet I do myself inhabit this body >> which energetic ically I could have and I believe I do could have you know an
27:42 umbilical cord from my belly to mother earth. >> Yeah. >> So there's that holding um with the cosmic hole if you like. Um, but I guess what I'm trying to say is it's that sense of well, I guess what I was hearing is what's the point? >> Even in wonder and awe, even enjoying a golden eagle or watching a dolphin going through the we are all part of the whole energetically that that meta energy connects us all. But on the physical plane, we have separated to have an experience in time and space which is all an illusion. I totally see that. I get that. But they're kind of
28:29 coexisting. The absolute and the relative are one. Yes. >> Yeah. That's how I sort of see that. So in that place there is a sense of evolution. But yes, I agree with you. I mean, and it's again reassuring to hear from that place of wholeness and yet from that place of wholeness things become >> if that makes sense. >> Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah. >> Um it's like an enhancer rather than I need that to be better. It's like how do I enhance >> this wholeness? Uh >> well, wholeness in the absolute sense can't be improved or worsened cuz it it's it's total. But in the appearance there can be healing and there can be pain, there can be trauma, there can be
29:16 you know remedies and there there can be looking after people and and care and all those things. >> Yeah. And that's that's okay. It's it's what happens naturally and but there isn't actually a separate self in there that that orchestrates and composes that. Yeah. So the the energy of this is an absolute exposure and in that can seem to be an openness, a receptivity and yeah then the body is apparently allowed to to run its its its thing. It it does its motions. It has its preferences. It it it goes to work and looks after people does what it does. Yeah. Yeah.
30:03 And so that is accommodated in what you're saying. >> Well, it's just they're just appearances really and and it's free to appear that way. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So likes and dislikes, even food. I mean, often totally ghosts say that's a bummer of being a spirit. You can't eat chocolate. >> Well, you know, chocolate or not, >> whatever. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I mean, it's just it really is so free to be as it is. Yeah. It doesn't have like there's this kind of I mean I don't know if this will resonate with you but but when it seems like there's a personal energy it feels like I have to get this right I have to get this right I have to get life right and it's it can feel very burdensome and you know there
30:48 can be a real pressure about that energy feeling like I have to get this right and I might get it wrong and and then that can be a lot of shame a lot of guilt and and and yeah very uncomfortable Um but it it doesn't have to be that way. It it can just be as it wants to be. You know, the preferences are free to be themselves and that you know there might still be you know like watching the sugar intake for example or or alcohol intake just for the simple nurturing of an organism. Um yeah and but maybe there's also the enjoyment of certain substances and whatnot. [laughter] >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Yeah. >> So I will pass this on but just to check
31:34 on so that sense of what I was checking in about the meta with the metaphysical and the physical you were saying yes there is a coexistence of of within the whole that is a >> um >> a reality. >> I think it's more like seeing it in two different ways. Um cuz there aren't actually two separate realities. No, >> there's only the natural reality, the absolute, the whole, the total. And that can appear as this. It can appear as bodies sitting in a room. Can appear as conversations and whatnot, but that but there isn't actually two separate realities and and a coexisting or an interdepending of them. It's all the absolute and even a relative dream of
32:21 there being separate things happening, separate people happening is that too. >> Yeah. So in that whole as I've you know in different readings I've read myself you know that sense all the oneness to experience him it herself h their self >> needs to be broken down to have that sense of even just that wonder of what it is to be >> a part of that whole if you like to know itself it's like you have to sort of so I'm just curious about that. >> Yeah. So in in the appearance of it, it seems like there's no I mean when a baby is born, so from the start of the story, baby is born, there's just total wonder, childlike wonder. There's no one in that body, no self. Just total stark wonder.
33:06 It's not located. There's just pure sensational vibrancy, wide, wide open. Which is why people, I think, I would suggest, love babies so much because their eyes are wide open. They're bright. there. It's like everything is brand new and fresh. Total total wonder. Nothing is known. Nothing is labeled. Nothing is defined or objectified. And then apparently in the story line after some time, you know that there seems to be an emergence of a felt sense of a center. And in that you would you would perhaps call it incarnate incarnation. And it seems like then that's the that's the umbilical cord that there's a me in here and a mother
33:52 out there. Suddenly mother is my mother. She is known by me. And then this this creates this illusion of distance and the objectified world at large. Well then all sound, sights, textures, tastes, smells, even thoughts and feelings seem to be objects. They seem to be things known by a center. [clears throat] And that would that would perhaps I guess the spiritual traditions call it oneness experiencing itself through >> the dream of separation. And when I say the dream of separation, I really mean it with no negative or positive connotations. It's just neutally what's seeming to appear. And in that there can
34:39 be a disturbance and there can be a sense that there's something lacking. Something's incomplete. And that's the dream of individuality and separation, continuity, autonomy and location all seeming to appear. And energetically in the same way it elusor really seems to set in. it can seem to elusory set out and the and the illusory and I use the word elusory with extra emphasis cuz it's completely unreal. No substance there. Not really happening. Um it's just that there's no one there. It's kind of a reset to to
35:24 the default setting, the default mode where the body was just as it was as a baby. And then there's no sense that there's a me in here and a you over there or a distance between two separate bodies knowing each other, relating to each other, conversing with each other. It's all reduced and expanded to immediiacy. So it's all it's all of the same source. It's all of the same thisness total. There's no sense that anything is more or less therefore. So there's no sense that sitting in a room in Brighton is is more or less sacred than sitting in the bar or sitting in an ashramm or or wherever. Yeah. Holding a microphone,
36:11 sensations of air on the skin, sitting on a chair. It's all this. It's all equinimously this. Yeah. Yeah. >> And in that place, people can express art music. >> Oh, for sure. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. creative energies just playfully expressing themselves. Yeah. >> So there's a place for becoming in some capacity as people develop that >> experiential self. >> Well, becoming is in a way the illusion of continuity. Yeah. It it lives in the reality of of things happening in time. >> Sure. >> Yeah. Like things are happening and they're happening sequentially. And that would be the realm of the relative realm of becoming and continuity. Yeah. So
36:59 immediacy is unknowable and it's nothing. But that nothing is vibrantly all. It's vibrantly everything. Yeah. >> Which is the smoggish board of everything is the smoggish board. So it's kind of like it's the all of everything of what? >> Yeah. The unknowable all. Yeah. >> Yeah. There's definitely more, but I will pass along. [laughter] >> Yeah, no worries. We we've got we've got time apparently, even though there's no time. >> Um, what I I'm always confused why people call it nothing. >> Yes. >> Like, what is that referring to? >> It's referring to nothing as it happens. [laughter] >> Yeah. I'm just playing.
37:46 >> Um, it's, you know, I I get how the word nothing is is uh so incomprehensible. I mean, I wouldn't say it's misleading because it's it's not actually leading anything anywhere. Um, that there isn't a thing to be described to be located. And um nothing it really means that there aren't things that that there aren't actually things happening because continuity is really you know it's it's a big deal to a dream it's it's like so it's so required for me the dream of separation if there's no continuity and there already isn't then there's no me
38:32 there's no on and there are no things happening because this appearance doesn't have a before. It doesn't have 13.7 billion years prior to it to when the universe came into apparent existence. It doesn't even have a yesterday or even 5 seconds ago. The only way in which that would appear is as a memory which is this immediacy vitally being a memory. So a dream of subject seems to imagine that there's time timeline like I'm watching this reality happen continuously. I'm watching changes happen. I'm watching movement happen or stillness happen. [snorts] I'm watching
39:18 change and it's it just breeds this illusion of things happening but there isn't actually things happening. There aren't separate bodies and separate chairs and separate microphones and separate words. There aren't separate things and there aren't inseparable things. It's all totally empty which is vibrant, vibrantly empty. There's no edge of the skin where the atmosphere ends and the body begins. There's no edge. It's an illusion. Yeah. >> There's like a continuity of colors and
40:05 shapes. >> In a dream, it seems like that. Yeah. It seems like there's momentum. M >> it it's as though when it seems like someone's aware that there's something here that's aware. It seems like something's happening that that there's something happening and that awareness is aware of something happening. But that echo is charged with nothing. There's nothing. It's unreal. It's like a a psychossematic misperception of this reality. And as though the dream of awareness, the dream of distance itself is not happening. Then it's just
40:51 there's there's no things there are no things there's no self to which things are happening to or in front of. Yeah. >> Yeah. It it doesn't really make sense to a conditioned mind which feels it like is is objectifying, right? Cuz objectifying makes this solid. It's solid. Yep. This is solid. Even the air is solid. It's like everything is knowable. Yeah. Yeah. >> Does it change the sensory perception of things? Do you see things differently than before?
41:36 Well, before and after is in the in the landscape of separation, isn't it? Cuz all we're ever finding is what appears to be happening. And then we could say, well, what about, you know, like um 49 minutes ago or 45 minutes ago, however many [laughter] minutes ago, when when people started walking in the room, and that's this being 45 minutes ago when everyone was walking in the room. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But the room looks the same for you. But but there there's no sameness. [laughter] There's no same I know it's it's pedantic as hell. I know. Yeah. There there's no sameness or difference. You see, it's the discernment. It's the it's the comparison and the distinction. This is the this is different. This is the same.
42:23 But it's all just immediately this. It's unabracted. So there's just this being whatever. This has always been like this. >> Always is continuity as well. [laughter] >> I'm trying to ask it in a way that makes sense. >> Um when you had a separate self walking through the world >> um versus now where there's no self. Is there any perceptual changes in the world that you inhabited? >> Okay. >> Or yes, >> I know that it it's a thought and an idea.
43:09 >> All right. So, in the story there would be saying of this is different and this is the same, right? >> So, in the story that that can be said, but the story is also the the dream that there's befores and afters. So it doesn't actually accurately compute that once upon a time there was a center and now there isn't because continuity is the center. It is the dream of there being a center as well. [snorts] If the sense of continuity falls apart then there's no sense that continuity ever happened [cough] because happened is continuity. I understand >> everything kind of implodes into immediacy then there's no sense that a
43:54 before and an after is actually a reality. However, just have to say that disclaimer. [laughter] >> But in the before and after, >> it seems like there's viscerally charged a compass. I am here like the orange little figure on Google Maps. I'm there. That's where I am. I'm located. Yeah. And it feels like that's viscerally wound up in a body. Yeah. I'm here. I'm not like five inches that way or this way. I'm I'm here. I feel to be here and it's felt that way. It's perceived that way. It's viscerally embodied that way. And um yeah, that apparently dissolves.
44:41 Yeah. So there's no sense of a here. There's the concept of a here, but it's not felt as a reality. >> So, you don't feel like you're looking out of your eyes. >> Yeah. You that could look out of the eyes is not there. >> So, you're just seeing more of just everything. >> There's just seeing. >> Just seeing. >> Yeah. So, there's no you to be seeing and there's no you to be seen. There's just seeing appearing. So, center which would say I'm here seeing out of these eyes and hearing out of these ears etc. >> Okay. That you, that centered you is is not there and then it's just centerless. Everything is immediacy. Everything is distancelessly this. >> Yeah. No more here or there. No. No. >> Yeah. It's it's spaceless and it's
45:29 timeless as well because I'm oriented in the now, right? So I'm oriented here. I feel to be here. I'm not I'm not 5 m over there or there, but I'm also not 5 seconds from now. I'm not 5 seconds ago. And I'm not 5 seconds ahead. I'm now that's also viscerally charged energetically. It seems like I'm located now. That's my orientation in time. And that too is not sensed as a reality. Memories, ideas, thoughts can still appear, but they're not located and they don't belong to anything. >> And autonomy as well. So there's four I I often say there's four main perceptions which which seem to seem to happen in the dream. Space, time,
46:16 um autonomy as well. >> Is that like will? >> Yeah. >> Or something else. >> It would be will. Yeah. It would be a felt sense that I am moving my arm right now like someone is actually moving their arm up and down like a a puppet and a puppeteer. that is completely gone undeniably. And I say that without applying any specialness or significance at all, but it is undeniable. No one lifts their hand. No one speaks their words. No one thinks their thoughts. They just happen energetically and effortlessly. And the last one, awareness. The sense that someone is here aware of what's happening there.
47:03 >> Okay. And and those four just die. Just illuserily die. They're misperceptions of this reality, natural reality. Because space, time, autonomy, and awareness all demand separation. Space demands here and there. Time demands now and then. Autonomy demands driver and vehicle. Awareness demands subject and object. All of those are dualistic paradigms which die with the dream of separation. All that's left immediacy. [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Uh so kind of coming back to what I was
47:49 saying before for me it's well it's like the divine paradox. So you've got everything is the whole that meta place as you're saying you call it nothingness and you also call it that unconditional love. >> Do you do you coincide those words together or would you do you prefer one? >> I would say they're synonyms. Um obviously they're not describing anything but they are you know they are words that seem to come up around this. Yeah. >> I think for me unconditional love describes something more than nothingness. I will say that >> it's nothing and everything. Yeah, >> totally nothing and everything. I mean, I know that nothing to a conditioned mind will sound like some bleak black nihilistic void of empty space where there are no, >> you know, it's it's not like a big black
48:34 empty space. It's this, it's this. >> But in terms of this duality, so can't there be that that paradox of everything's the whole, but within the whole are loads of component parts. And so it's kind of here, there, and everywhere. So it's not uh >> duality. It's that there's a triad in that because you can't have you and me without the space holding it of which at some point I end and you start or whatever that is. >> And it's sort of that capacity to hold both realities >> as in we are all connected having these experiences. I guess that's which is >> seemingly similar to what you're saying but also not what you're saying because
49:20 you will say there is that >> I see what you're saying. >> Okay. >> And and I a metaphor came up yesterday. >> Yeah. >> Um you might remember it. >> You might remember the metaphor. Who was it that said they watched yesterday's video? It was both of you, wasn't it? [laughter] A metaphor came up yesterday of a jigsaw puzzle and the picture on the box, right? >> Um, so I thought this was quite nice. So the absolute and the relative are one, right? >> And the absolute would be the picture you get on the box of a jigsaw puzzle. It's not it's not made of pieces. It's just one picture. It's one inseparable hole. And there's nothing seeing it as a bit here and a bit there. But when you
50:05 take the box off, you've got like a thousand separate pieces. And that would be the relative. But the relative is the picture, but it's just a losery made of loads and loads of different bits like the the corners and the edge the edge pieces and the bits in the middle. And it's all seemed to be fragmented. And that would be the the relative way of seeing this reality like a separate lamp microphone camera floor ceiling, windows, etc. bodies. It's like it's seeing separate things take place in a separate and relativistic reality. That would be the jigsaw puzzle. But as though you put all of the Oops, I'm muted. Um it's as though you put all of the pieces back together. You see the
50:51 picture, but it still maybe looks like the picture is made of like thousand different pieces. Um but that's the illusion. Basically the illusion is that there are separate pieces joining up together which would then come to theories like codependent codependency interdependency um dependent origination or what was the other way of putting it co- >> co-arising >> co-arising yeah those kinds of things you know and um yeah really that that that's an illusion it's how it seems to be when it feels energetically like there's a location, then it seems like everything is located. And that's the that's the relative way of seeing this reality. And as though energetically
51:37 that relative separate centered experiential thing is not there, it it's it isn't sensed that way basically. Yeah. But naturally everything still kind of is the way it is. So as you know conversing for example and going to cafes reading books or or or doing whatever you know it's like everything is the same and yet everything is totally radically different. Yeah. Okay. So there is that place of and in that difference there's a um a beingness
52:22 of experiencing that. I mean, I guess the question is being in your body. What's your experience of being and enjoying being in your body >> as opposed to noticing times when you're less enjoying? Even if it's an illusion, >> but there's still a noticing of an experience. >> Yeah. That's gone. That's gone. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> So everything [snorts] is simply what it is. Yeah. There's no sense that anyone is living in a body anymore. There's no sense that anyone is embodied. Um, but body is bodying and it's and it's apparently I'm only speaking >> this this is only speaking for this, but it's more relaxed. Yeah. And it still does yoga and likes to stretch and does cardio exercise from time to time and,
53:08 you know, goes for walks in nature. >> Dances. >> Oh, yes. Now we're talking. Dances. Oh, that one for sure. Um, yeah. And it tends to take care of itself. It just isn't swayed. It's not under the sway of an illusion that someone's there experiencing that. Well, then it's more it's more natural. It feels very natural in an apparent contrast or comparison. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I have more but I [laughter] [snorts] Yeah. Yeah.
53:56 What I what I could say is is that you know the jigsaw puzzle the relative landscape is a world of complexity, artificiality and standing out like things exist, they stand out and they stand apart from each other and as though that is not there seen through by nothing. It's all just reduced to ordinary, natural, simple. The simplicity of being without someone being the the the naturalness of of sitting and nothing needs to happen. This isn't going anywhere. No one's getting enlightened. There's there's just sitting. It's totally natural. It's totally ordinary
54:42 and it's totally simple. Yeah. But a world conjures up a a drama of complexity which is totally free. Like it's totally free to appear like that too. Yeah. But no one's orchestrating, no one's composing it. No one's making it a certain way. It's just it's just naturally organically freshly being what it is. Yeah. >> So I think this is what I imagine death to be like. >> Yeah. basically it's like kind of up for the journey to get you know like okay it's that will be I will be in that meta realm because I won't have be one of the jigsaw puzzles even if it's an illusion >> absence yeah >> you know that so
55:28 >> um and so I guess for me in part of my journey of noness >> to use your terms is um for me it's about learning about those relationships. So whether it's learning about the relationship which we very much lost in this part of the world of connection relationship with uh the natural realm >> that you know from the living beings whether you want to call them the the rivers, the springs, the streams, the all of it, the whole gamut of of an aliveness and that relationship >> which actually really excites me that >> and that is an a sort of awakening because that's been totally carved in
56:15 this, you know, in a divise of certainly the western world. And I know it's an illusion what you're saying, but it's it's the the experience I've grown from to get where I am, if you like. Um, so yeah, I guess that's what I'm what I get excited by is is that aliveness um >> of all things and I sort of trying to figure out where that fits in with what you're saying because I'm hearing you in a sort of nonness of no aliveness and a nothingness. It's not deadness. I mean, you know, Kenneth sometimes uses the word aliveness, and I
57:00 quite like that. Um, I somehow or other I prefer the word vibrancy, but it's not it's not any better or worse. >> Um, but I I like to call it the void of vibrancy cuz it's a it's an oxymoron. Uh, void we, you know, for for a mind that feels separate and um polarized, here's void, and it feels of something bleak often. Yeah. like something dark and and you know desperate like not very nice maybe quite quite negative nihilistic but it's vibrant void it's it's vibrant it's totally I mean the the the curtains are vibrant yeah the the carpet and the the rugs it's like vibrancy yeah it's
57:46 vibrancy all over everything is that vibrancy yeah but it's not discernable because I really I mean everything is that vibrancy decay you know dying death dead bodies and you know it's all vibrancy yeah >> but in but in that vibrancy isn't there it's interesting you use that word understand things to be moving at a different vibration which gives that illusion of separation but we are all connected but things are vibrating at a different uh rate so a stone perceivably looks like It's doing nothing but it's vibrating just at a very different frequency to a >> hummingbird. >> Mhm. >> Um but that we are all connected in the
58:33 great whole. Yes. >> Um but there are these different vibrations so that we can um that's the question really. Well I have a sense of that but >> it's looking for a meaning it would seem. Well, you >> seem to be looking for a purpose or something. >> A kind of Yeah. A purpose of becoming, you know, there is we are unfolding a story. I know you were talking about the story and and part of that story is the fact that we have forgotten where we come from, certainly in this part of the world, and cut off everything that you're talking about. Um but that sense of remembering I mean this is part of that I would imagine is
59:19 you are >> I I think that the return the illusory return >> when it seems like a center is falling away is a kind of familiarity. Yeah. >> But the problem is is that it's not objectified. It can't be known because the center wants and needs to know. It wants to stand apart from the appearance, to label it, to name it, to define it, to objectify it. And that that is a a a dependency in a way. But in an apparent return, it is unknowable. No one no one is there to know that. And yet there's a familiarity about it because that's how everybody was born in [snorts] the natural reality as the natural reality. the natural reality of
1:00:06 they're just being breathing and sitting. >> But could I just say it's it why does it have to be objectified? Why can't they all be subjects of the whole uh with gifts? >> Well, it doesn't have to be any certain way. It's just that subject and object are actually two sides of the same coin. In the same way, night and day are two sides of the same coin. You can't really have one without the other. >> Absolutely. If there was only ever nighttime, then nighttime wouldn't exist because it's because it's all there is. Yeah. >> So, it's the same with life and death. Like, you can't have one without the other. >> You can't have a sub you can't and therefore you can't have subject without an object. So, they depend on each other. That's two separate things. And yet, they're not really separate. It's
1:00:52 it's a it's an illusory paradox. So what is what is blown out which is what the word nana means just fun fact um what is blown out is is subject and object as two separate things and then there's only this there's only immediacy dancing freely as sensation and vibration timelessly so yeah and that's that is a wonder in a way it's childlike wonder and then yeah you know there's there's just this but there's no sense that it needs to go anywhere or become anything. There's still of course like if there's pain and suffering and agony then there's there tends to be a response to that on a relative practical
1:01:37 situation level, right? >> Yeah. >> But there's no sense that it needs to be any more or less anything cuz there's no sense of becoming and changing and going, you know, that progression energy of trying to get more. It's it's not required. It's not necessary. But those stories may appear to happen for some bodies and that's that's you know I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. >> Yeah. It's all the play. It's all the play. Leela.
1:02:32 >> So, did you um lose belief systems after this or >> um it was divine despair? Yeah. Every imagined belief system kind of crumbled apart. Yeah. Like sand slipping through the fingers. Yeah. ideologies, views and values about being of this kind of person or that kind of person. How we all how we as a species should be, >> you know, it all hopelessly fell apart. Yeah. >> It's liberating. [laughter] Totally liberating, you know. Yeah. >> And does that mean that your mind is quieter? Does that have an effect on the mind? >> Um, apparently. Apparently so. I mean it is a bit objectifiable or subjectifiable
1:03:19 putting it like that but that whole sort of neurotic storytelling energy and the internal dialogue constantly yapping away it at itself >> should and shouldn't and all that stuff it it certainly seems to die down. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Did that die down in the leadup or afterwards? Um it's hard to recall really. It's it's a bit blurry because continuity as I as I knew it was falling apart. >> Um but yeah, I mean I was quite hardcore into yoga and and um self inquiry and awareness of awareness and all that stuff seemed really important. [snorts] Um and
1:04:07 [laughter] quieting down the mind seemed like really like that was the answer. And and what was revealed was actually no thought has ever stepped in the way of this appearance. Yeah. And and then it's just like well thoughts can just thought. They can just think away. They don't need to be suppressed, ignored, avoided, or neglected. Neither do they need to be acknowledged, validated, or brought into the light. They can just be what they are. Sensations and thoughts can just be as they are. They don't need anything. They're just they're just what they are. Yeah. And because no one's dealing with them or trying to do something about them, they they just tend to they just tend to kind of quiet down because no one's there listening.
1:04:54 No one's there talking to them. They just they just appear or they don't. And that's why I say it's totally natural and normal. There's nothing special about that. It's not some kind of divine samadi like state that we might have imagined it to be when we were sincerely following gurus and yogis which some of us might still do and fair enough nothing wrong with it but it's just normaly. Yeah, it's normaly. I yeah in what you've just said I'm just I'm struck by and I'm wondering how you
1:05:41 would respond to this is the the well okay the thought in my head was oh it must be really nice to feel so sure and certain and yet where does that fit in nonduality >> so >> well maybe you're >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Completely unknowable. I mean, this is a bit like a child or a baby just babbling. [laughter] Yeah. I'm just a babbling gibberish talking baby. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] With no value behind the words whatsoever. Um I mean sometimes it's fun to make one of one make fun of oneself. um even though there isn't a self to do that. Um but um yeah, it seems like
1:06:26 there's no position to take a stand with what's being said really. So there's no authority. It's not like I'm sitting here and I know better than anyone else. That's definitely not true. It's nonsense. Um, and there's no there's no sense that there's a position to to be doubtful or certain like to for these words to be married up with conviction would seem to demand a a person to stand behind them. But they're just words outpouring like everything else. Yeah. They seem to they seem to maybe look like they're married up with a great deal of conviction, but that I think the reason that is is because they don't come from a position of knowing. They don't come from a filtered view of someone being there to know that to be certain or doubtful about it.
1:07:14 >> They just speak themselves. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's playful. I think it's playful. But isn't that then a thing if it's playful? Where does that leave non-playful? >> If it's polarized, then it's dualistic. Yeah. But um I mean play in the unconditional sense really. Yeah.
1:08:02 Yeah, everything is the divine play. Leela and Leela can appear to be very serious and important. Can appear as monarchs and you know kings and queens and um politicians and religious figures. Can also appear as uh clowns and and uh yeah jokers and whatnot. >> So where's that word come from? I don't know that word. >> Leela. >> Yeah. Oh, it's um I mean it's in I think it's in reference to the Hindu tradition that that this is just a play, a divine cosmic play, not for any reason or purpose behind it. It's it's not going anywhere. It's not coming from anywhere. It's just it's just the total.
1:08:49 Yeah. It's a it's a bit of a it's a bit of a metaphorical way like it's a bit of a poetically metaphorical way of talking about this empty appearance. >> Yeah. kind of takes the the weight out of it like this is supposed to be this way or it should or it's you know it's supposed to you know be something or do something. Yeah. Yeah. In a story that would have been an apparent Alexism of this is supposed to be serious. Yeah. Alexis took itself very seriously. So, it's like a divine play with no script. >> Right. Right. >> Yeah. It's a It's a jazz song.
1:09:37 [laughter] >> Yeah. >> You say anarchy quite a lot. >> I do like the word anarchy. Yeah. So, does this remind you of childhood at all? Do you think that this is what children experience? >> Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, they are Well, I mean, up until a point, it seems for many children, it's like just Yeah, >> that's how I see them. >> Yeah. When they're in the playground, they're not they're not sort of existentially questioning why they're building, you know, whatever they're building or doing what they're doing. Yeah. They just It's effortless. It's
1:10:23 just effortless. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But could it not be effortlessly singular in as much as they might effortlessly? Somebody playing in a sand pit, somebody kicking a ball, somebody doing a handstand or a cartwheel. In that singularity of expression, they're enjoying their body effortlessly. >> Yeah. Exactly. It is a >> it is a a self that manifested self that is they're not all doing handstands. >> No. So there is something different between them that wants to that is energetically pulled to do a handstand or >> play hopscotch or something. >> I mean it would be a story to say that there are different people with different you know preferences, different expressions, etc. But but in
1:11:09 the appearance of it, yeah, that that just appears to be as it appears to be. >> Yeah. >> And and can that be is that a nice thing? Is that >> I don't think it has to be nice or not nice. It just is what it is. >> Yeah. >> Handstands or playing music or >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, Lego or Barbie or whatever. Yeah. >> But it's a thing. >> A thing. Yeah. >> What do we mean by a thing? >> Well, it's it's a it's a showing up in something. >> I mean, it Yeah. I mean, it's the entire appearance being play or or hands down or hopscotch. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's like the entire appearance is just being that. Yeah,
1:11:55 >> you two are really [laughter] going for it. >> I love it. >> Yeah, type to Yeah. What do you do when it's tagged? [laughter] Do you have to like >> high five or something? >> Oh, it's really good. Oh, here it is. Um, could this happen? And you is there a way that this could happen and you wouldn't be aware of it? >> Totally. >> Is it quite obvious? Cuz it's ob obviously everything is already as it is. >> Yeah. That that's the that's the great um >> could you sort of slide into this? >> Sure. Without [laughter] >> slide in without realizing. >> Yeah, for sure. For sure. Because that
1:12:41 that's the great predicament for a a cyclic illusory energy is it it won't be there to notice. In the same way you won't know when you fell asleep. You're anticipating sleep that's going to happen. But as though deep dreamless sleep sets into the nervous system. There isn't a noticing of it. It's the absence of the awareness light bulb. Well then that's not noticed yet. However, the body seems to report it still. It still seems like there there's a body in the appearance of it. There's bodies talking and saying there's no one and there's no this and whatnot. But but it's not there's not someone there knowing that. Yeah. Which doesn't really make much sense to the way in which it
1:13:26 seems to be perceived. >> Yeah. Because it's on the lookout for change, which again is its reality of continuity. It's on the lookout for a change in perception. And [snorts] it could be so subtle, so quick or gradual in its own realm of happenings. Gradual, sudden, but it won't be there. Yeah, it won't be there. It's not there already. I will just say apparently [laughter] Apparently, glimpses seem to be quite stark. Like they're they're quite the
1:14:14 way in which I don't know if you've heard glimpses talked about in this context, but but it's talked about as quite a stark contrast in a change in perception. And that's like the light bulb went fully off like from 100% to 0% in a flash. That's like um that can seem very very noticeable because it's such a contrast, such a dynamic shift, but it could also be very very very gradual and quiet. I guess that my mind has wandered to the sort of concept of like the sacred masculine, the sacred feminine and the
1:15:00 spark of life that happens with the you know baby being created so to speak which is a a coming through so to speak from that wholeness. >> Mhm. >> How I'm just Yeah. kind of have a bit of a a cartoon then of of where that fits into because there is some there is two parts of those puzzles coming together to make that spark of creation. Mhm. >> Um which there is as I say it's kind of one thing and another thing to create another thing >> right >> um yeah just what do you say about that >> it's it's details of an appearance which is fundamentally empty and full um
1:15:46 >> empty and full did you say >> and this I mean I I know some people don't like the word divine they find it a bit too spiritual or loaded with connotations of religiosity. But um I don't have a problem with it and I think everything is that everything is the divine. >> Yeah. >> And the divine can appear to be split. It can appear as a split, a yin and a yang where feminine and masculine are born. Two sides of the same coin. And there's a divine feminine and a divine masculine. But without the split, the great cosmic split, there's just the divine. Yeah. But do you in you know lots of teachings or what have you often they have different qualities those sacred or divine energy. So that kind of
1:16:34 >> receptive magnetic frequent energy of the female to the more dynamic. >> Yeah. >> Of the masculine of which we all have those qualities cuz we all have those energies within us but there's still different >> Yeah. I mean what what we're doing there is what what we're doing there is going into the rainbow >> which is like an abstraction of white radiant inseparable light. Right? >> I I like to play with metaphors a lot. >> And the the the white radiant light is unabstracted. It's completely inseparable. It's neither this nor that. Even to call it light would seem misleading because that suggests that it lives in relation to darkness and that's not what's meant. It's total. It's the absolute. It's unconditional. And the
1:17:20 the the the radiant light can seem to fragment into a an array of colors, all different or all, you know, different qualities. And they all relate to each other, but they're separate from each other. And yeah, that's just that is the unabracted appearing to be abstracted. >> And and and as I understand it, but and I think I just want to check with you, we live in both. We're living in the white light and we're living in the >> I mean again the relative the relative and the absolute are one. >> Yeah. >> But a dream sees it as relativistic and no dream just absolute. Yeah. No no no discernment. Nothing to distinguish
1:18:06 from anything else. Nothing to piece apart or piece together. Just wholeness. Vibrant. Void. Total. It's all. It's all there is. Yeah. So, we can talk about those, you know, qualities of whatever but appears to be happening, but it only ever is that. It's just what appears to be happening. Yeah. Thank you. >> Yeah. It's not more or less than anything else. Yeah. But more and less would just be an abstraction or story. Yeah.
1:19:42 Oh, excuse me. The cosmic burp. Nothing special. >> Nothing to see. >> No one to receive. [snorts]
1:20:52 I'd like to ask a personal question. >> Anything you like. Um cuz I remember we spoke recently about um sort of your gender identity and that sort of thing and I was just curious about sort of that point on masculine and feminine. >> Um just >> if I'm right >> the the the nonduel the falling away >> seemed to coincide with a um you know sense of the appearance of a change. >> Oh yeah. Um, and I'm just wondering, is that just like a poetic coincidence or [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Is that okay to Yeah, >> of course you can ask anything you like. I'm an open book. Yeah. Um, so it's it's tricky, isn't it? Um, identity is is
1:21:38 seems to be uh, if we could use just playfully for a second the metaphor of Adam and Eve, you know, the identity is the leaf that I wear over my body to to to cover my shame which I think is mine. And my my identity is something that I carry and hold and it's very dear to me. And there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that at all. there's nothing, you know, wrong or right with with identity or no identity. Um but yeah it seems like when it's there it seems very very personal and very very substantial and significant to someone and those identities might change over time in the story line and the unqualified I am as the spiritual teachers and
1:22:25 teachings would say is this is this energy which is actually not identified or identifiable at all. Um, but the identities that seem to grow out of, you know, cultural conditioning, society [clears throat] and whatnot, they take a million different forms as we know all too well. Um, and yeah, I in the story line of Alexis, it was a it was quite um a radical pendulum swinging kind of energy of going from this to that to this to that. Um and and the gender situation was one of those, you know, but there was there was so many like being a vegan [laughter] and then carnival and then uh you know um Buddhist and yogi and whatnot. Um and wonderfully it's it just
1:23:11 all falls apart. It just all falls apart. And that doesn't mean that anything has to change or anything has to stay the same. Um it's just freedom playing. Freedom playing. uh freedom isn't an entity to do the playing. It's it's freedom immediately playing as as bodies and bodying and whatever. Um but uh [snorts] yeah, it seems inaccurate to say this body is is one thing or the other cuz there isn't such a thing as a separate body and there isn't such a thing as an entity incarnated in the body to be living in the right one or the wrong one really. Like it's just not like that. Yeah. Yeah. Which can be quite a hard pill to
1:23:58 swallow. Um if there's a if there's an investment in me and myself and what I own and what belongs to me. Um yeah,
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