0:05 Come everyone to this lovely Sunday afternoon. Hello. Welcome. Okay. So well as usual I give a short introduction on what this is about and then everyone is welcome to uh say something or ask something or to not say something at all. So whatever happens is wholly complete and uh we'll have a break as usual and then we would meet again here.
0:52 So well all there is is what seems to be happening and that's naturally whole and complete. It's this there isn't anything else than what seems to be happening. And the thing is that this is real and unreal. On the one hand, it is something undeniably. It's whole, total, complete. While at the same time, it's unreal. It's empty of reality. It's empty of meaning. It's empty of being something. So that's what real and unreal means. It's just this All the things that the person dreams
1:37 about, liberation, fulfillment, being on a path, time and space, so to speak, um they don't exist as such. There is no time. There is no no one on a path. There is no space. There is no real world. It's an appearance. It's an appearance. And this eye, this sense to be a separate something is the only illusion. It's the one and only illusion. That's what's meant when I say that there is no one. This sense to be a separate something in the body. That's yeah, it's not made out of something. It's it's not someone. It
2:26 it's not real as such. And all the seeking that comes out of this impression to be a separate self is part of that illusion. They just go together. Me and seeking go together. And what the mi is usually trying to do is to find a solution within its world. I need to find an answer. I need to arrive. I need to have an experience of fulfillment. So the knee is seeking for something within a dream. It's seeking for something real within an illusurary world which is the personal world.
3:11 And of course that's doomed to fail. The Mi can't succeed. And again it can't succeed because it's not real in the first place. And all the things that it's looking for are just imaginary. There are fantasies, personal fulfillment, total understanding, absolute love, absolute freedom as something that I can experience, as something that I can become aware of. And the good news is that all those things aren't needed. Well, not all those things actually this one thing, namely that I become aware of
4:05 [Music] You said before for you there wasn't a clear point when it ended. >> Yes. >> So to say when you even apparently vanished. >> Yeah. I mean that's there is no one that's not really the point anyway. >> I think the thing is because the me looking for an ending it wants a distinct point where it knows okay that's the end. >> Yes. [Music]
5:16 There it is. Some when it said there is no one >> there is some exist something existing but it doesn't have it does it isn't separate and it doesn't have its own substance. >> Yeah. So yeah, is there then something that exists you know that's already doesn't make sense something which doesn't have any substance that's Yeah. Yeah. No, I I mean because when it is said that it is empty, >> it is like
6:02 wall is empty of a wall substance. Chair is like that. >> Yeah, one could say sorry. >> Chair is empty of chair substance. >> Yes. >> Yeah. In in that sense that is appearance. >> In that sense. Yeah. >> Or that it is only appearance. >> Yes. >> It is something and it is >> nothing. Yeah. At the same time. Exactly. >> Now this message is not denying us sitting together in this room but it's also not confirming it.
6:49 >> Yeah. because it confused me sometimes. I hear as if you say that there is no ex like like a blank like nothing. >> No, the no the surprise is that this is non-existent. >> Yeah. While it is, it isn't. But I know the person will create the image of another reality. Okay, this is not existing. There's a black screen or what? No. So when there's that contradiction, it is and it isn't.
7:37 It's end of that uh moment when you can understand it. >> It's it can't be understood. >> It can't be understood. Yeah. >> It can't be experienced. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yes. And yeah, the person will always be torn between those things because it regards them as opposites or even contradictions. I mean, in a way that's the biggest contradiction for the person, presence and absence, >> two things, and the person is in the middle feeling torn toward those >> or life and death. the person would say that's the biggest difference at all if I'm there or if I'm not there as if
8:23 those are two separate aspects and the person tries to unite them it's kind of in the middle separate in the middle and how can I bring this together how can I bring sitting in a room together with this not existing yeah and it's impossible But the good news is that this person is in the >> because instantly when when you say for example you're not sitting on a chair >> I feel like a relief because of that contradiction.
9:09 I it's loose and everything but it's not >> Yes. >> That's not me which like >> Yes. >> Yeah. It's instantly free. >> Yeah. It's instantly free. [Music]
10:01 Wow. So the person is the in his own >> exactly more than that. It's just
10:48 only without person that's not possible anymore. I'd say >> seeking you mean >> seeking. >> Yeah. Yeah. The person and seeking are the same thing and it just circles around itself >> or does not matter. It can be seeking in your words let's say but it's certain around itself. >> It's seeking in this in those words seeking in making money or seeking in personal progress. That's all the it's always the same dynamic. Maybe let's say normally it see the world let's say >> can go traveling and going on you have
11:35 to see different places and so adventures and then it feels like the seeking uh since I met you let's say that seeking is shrinking >> yeah that's possible yeah >> yeah it's possible that the seeking dynamic itself kind of runs Yes. >> That seem also that the desperation is coming more. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because that's usually hidden under all the seeking. I mean, usually the me doesn't know how desperate it actually is because it's constantly doing things. is constantly distracting itself in the end to cover up one's own
12:21 desperation of separation and feeling separate and feeling lost and all those things. So it's possible that if the capacity to seek becomes less that then this desperation comes out or it becomes more obvious. Yeah. It's very very easy to cover that up for example by living in nondual concepts or something. >> The me can easily hide in conceptual thinking
13:07 and think that it already understood something and stuff like that. just do not face its own experience of yeah always also goes together with time by the person searching for freedom say when I'm doing I have my pension nobody will follow me say what to do anymore so I have time for myself let's say >> yeah time for yourself >> time for Time for a more relaxed way to be me. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think for most people retirement
13:53 is a bit like enlightenment just in society. Ah when I'm retired or enlightenment is something like spiritual retirement. >> You don't have to work anymore. Exactly. When I'm enlightened, I don't have to meditate anymore and seek and think about all that stuff. Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. And as I said, it's always time time bound. There's always this more promising future and it's always the same hope when this when it will be like this and this then I can finally be
14:41 a free and happy me. Yeah. And it never comes. It never comes. It's just chasing a fantasy. And as we said yesterday, most people they just live from weekend to weekend or from coffee break to coffee break. So they seek themselves through life, still hoping that at the end there'll be the big break, not just another coffee break but
15:29 >> does it make sense to to to face the desperation? Well, it doesn't make sense to face it, but I think when it's there, there's no need to push it away. You can't turn it into another method. >> In terms of, okay, now I'm consciously facing the desperation, then it's not real desperation anymore. >> No. >> As long as you can still do something about it, it's not worse enough. But now you are facing the illusion. >> Well, as I said, it it needs to happen by itself, >> but it can be quite interesting to have this whole thing right in your face
16:15 without the possibility to escape from it anymore. I mean, that's what usually this dynamic is doing. It's trying to escape itself. It's trying to escape how it actually feels to be a me. by seeking by distracting itself. So one could almost say then yeah be it totally and see if it's really that bad. >> If it really if it really harms anything even this deep desperation does it do anything? Is there someone who's really yeah harmed by that? Can it really kill someone? Because that's the
17:00 fear of death is of course part of it. But there is no one who can do facing it >> and it's not needed. That's the other thing. It could just collapse like that. But if it's happening >> Yeah. >> Because I mean the whole thing is a dream that there is someone that it's so painful that it's unbearable. This this feeling not just as a concept, this feeling of I can't bear it. This will kill me. Yeah.
17:46 Really? It's literally an illusion. Is the hell really that bad? Well, the other way around would be is heaven really that good? Not really.
18:40 Interesting. I don't know if this is a bit silly thing to ask, but the body doesn't have an awareness of itself. >> Well, apparently it does. >> Well, the brain's aware of what it's doing by picking up a glass of water. Yeah. But there's also a kind of a body awareness. >> The body's aware that it's >> that it is >> happening. >> Yes. >> Without me. >> Yes. But only apparently >> it's not real then. So there is no real awareness about there being it's just what seems to be happening. Yeah. The only thing that would give it the the feeling of reality would be the me. >> Okay. >> Oh yeah. Of course. who can say, "Well, there I'm here." >> Yeah. >> Okay. I'm sitting here.
19:28 There's just no one having the experience of it. Yeah. I can feel my legs and Yeah. The um the illusion of this um can only be it it seems real and it can only be experienced as an illusion from the nondual side. >> Exactly. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yes. The me itself can't experience
20:15 itself to be an illusion. >> Not at all. That's the contradiction. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because the me would so to speak, I want to really see that I'm not real. >> No. No. >> So there's no possibility to see through that illusion in the in the way that the me thinks about. >> Absolutely. Yeah.
21:06 So Buddhistic teaching there saying about the dropping of body mind but that's just what they saying that's distro or falling away is that's similar expression being of body in mind is that just what you saying there is no meaning or you saying there is nothing to go. >> Yes, exactly. I think that's just a personal idea. I mean the funny thing with all those personal teachings we don't know but of course the origin could be what we talk about here because of course we do say there is no real body and there is no
21:53 real mind. So maybe someone who hears that thinks okay if I want to realize that how am I supposed to do that? Maybe if I get rid of the body of or mind as an experience but usually then it's about finding out that I'm the awareness or something. something that I can experience. >> Exactly. That I can experience that I'm not the body and not the mind. [Music] And what's being said here is a bit different. You don't exist. And body and mind are what seems to be
22:40 happening. You can't get rid of something that's not real in the first place. So even all those ideas of I have to get rid of that, I have to get rid of the thoughts, I have to get rid of problems or something is trying to get rid of something that's not substantial in the first place. So the me trying to get rid of thoughts, it really thinks that there are real thoughts in the first place and there aren't. is taking the thoughts is producing the thoughts.
23:27 >> Exactly. which in a way one could almost say for for certain thoughts that's even true because of course when there is seeking a lot of thoughts about how can I become fulfilled how can I become enlightened happen but again the idea is or the dream is that there is a real me producing those thoughts they just happen as a as a The moment there's the illusion to be someone, there is seeking in how can I become fulfilled? How can I be enlightened? And then suffering from
24:12 those thoughts. And again, what the me would try to do is to escape the symptoms of seeking. I would be free if I wouldn't have those thoughts anymore. Impossible. because they go together. But yeah, since the MI has collapsed here apparently in the story, I never suffered from the idea uh from the question why I'm not enlightened yet. So the me collapsed. this whole way of thinking collapsed or but in a way automatically
24:59 not because I stop producing those thoughts because I'm more aware now or something but just and I think one can maybe it's a story But maybe one can see this in many spiritual teachings that they somehow have a taste of that and then of course personalize it >> like mindfulness. >> Mindfulness. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, that's the same I do.
25:52 So when you say personalize it, that's like when you think I did that and that happened. So that which I did leads to uh that experience. Is that personalizing? >> Yeah. The assumption. Yeah. That there's a me who was consciously or unconsciously doing things. Yeah.
26:44 That seems like like the main goal of all teaching you basically to get rid of all thinking and thoughts. >> Yes. >> And meditation all exercises all focus on that. >> Yeah. In the end, yes. for oneself to become free >> because I think that's where the where the me feels the the deepest imprisonment. >> Yeah. >> Thoughts and feelings one's own body. >> Yeah. That's the attempt. I would be free if I wouldn't have those thoughts. I would be free if I wouldn't get angry or Yeah. It's actually always the same. All those
27:29 teachings are it's always the same dynamic and it's almost boring. It's >> exactly and they always come up with new concept or they they invent new names for it. But it's basically always the same about how to get rid of thoughts and feelings. It's basically all the same in new code. >> Exactly. Exactly. Like it said in the Bible. There is in the Bible I don't know old wine in new I don't know. That's >> old wine in new. >> Yeah. That's all the the personal teachings since 2,000 years. They
28:16 actually don't produce anything new. It's always the same stuff. How can I become free from Yeah. thoughts and feelings in the end. >> Don't you think it's also amplifying the the sense of me? >> Yeah. >> All those exercises. I think all effort people put in all those >> at least it confirms it. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> And in a way, yeah, the Mi is doing it and there seem to be little successes, but it never really works. So it confirms I'm wrong. I'm separate. And this can lead to desperation again and again. I mean the me usually is crashing every few weeks and months
29:04 about I don't manage and I'm giving my best and it doesn't work and I still have those [ __ ] thoughts and again I got angry or whatever. the world outside the selfification to me. >> It's the same also. >> Absolutely. It's not limited to the spiritual world or one could say the spiritual world is everywhere, the personal world. >> Totally. >> And yet it's full of it. >> Yeah. self glorification which is the
29:52 same thing in spirituality. It's just self glorify. Yeah, absolutely. >> And so it does it doesn't really matter if me says well I'm enlightened. I transcended the world or if someone said I built this business I was the one who got rich because I was working hard and It's all the same. It's all the same.
30:54 Does it want to say I don't know what I have just um Yeah, [Music] >> as to the English. >> Apart from that, it's possible to say anything. >> Yes. [Laughter] Just
31:54 talking about real and unreal at the same time. Is is there any substance to reality? >> No. >> Yes and no. There's no answer to it. >> At the same time, >> that's the that's >> that's the interesting part. Exactly. >> Time existing. >> Oh, well, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's timeless actually. It's just this. It's simultaneous. Real and unreal are not two aspects that that's what's meant that the same time. It's not in time or something. They're just
32:41 simultane. It's real and unreal. [Music] >> Is that is that >> Yes. Yeah, because there there is no real time and I mean that's just difficult. Even if we say it is real and unreal, the person will still hear this it and then there is time and stuff. It's all in this it >> around. >> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Thank you. >> Thank you.
34:19 So searching a person they cannot they can they all together they are not separated at all. >> Exactly. >> Why the same thing? >> Yes. That's why me without seeking doesn't really exist. I mean there are some some teachers who suggest just give up the search and there's just no one who can do that because the me and the search go together. Yeah, I was trying this so often because it sounded so easy and it sounded so logical. Oh, just I should just stop seeking. Never happened.
35:11 The seeking ended when the me turned out to be the most spiritual practice is the seression. Yes. >> I have a method and they can rearch. >> Absolutely. Yeah. It's institutionalized seeking. Yeah.
35:58 So every me has its own religion, creates its own religion. >> Yeah. >> But even within the religion, it creates it own religion. Exactly. Absolutely.
36:52 I'm I'm realizing now probably for sure I misunderstood the expression real and unreal because now because it seems that when you real there is a reality and not real there is not a reality and they are combined in a strange way or they are simultaneously true but probably you are pointing that it's not the addiction of two or the or the mixing of two because there is reality not non reality yes >> so it's something beyond that cannot be expressed in words so that's why you say being real. But at the end
37:37 to be real, we should have a reality. And to be not real, we should have some another object, mental object or real object which is not real. >> Exactly. >> So real and not real is not what I understood. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Because as as you said, the me will still somehow be left with two realities. But actually it's something completely ungrasable. >> Sitting in a room simultaneously being real and unreal. Simultaneously being something and nothing. This is something completely out of experience.
38:23 This is in that sense a completely different reality than anything that can be imagined or understood. And at the same time, it's very direct. I mean, you know it. We talked about it. It's not some theory about how it really is real and unreal. It's a very direct happening when this illusion collapses. It's it's the natural and vivid reality just is like that. And I like your words actually. It's simultaneously the distinct. It's simultaneously what is while at the same time it's infinite
39:12 timeless. I would call this timeless and spaces very directly and the person is constantly struggling between those two. It's constantly lost within the reality of its problems and its world and then having those lovely experiences in meditation and stuff and they seem to contradict themselves always like that when I don't think it feels so lovely but when I think and when this illusion collapses it all falls together and becomes something that's completely ungraspable. And still it's just this.
40:02 >> So it is not you saying a common because that's the border of language. So you have to concede something with language. But at the end it's not the opposition and it's not the the meeting of the opposites. It's un graspable even for the language. It's not graspable. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's not I don't know how you meant it but but it's not consciously talking in riddles or it's in a way the best possible from my view the best possible description apparently about what's going on very
40:48 directly very simple but like for the person the whole life is like a coan like an open question. This also happens in these meetings and me saying these words, but it's not doing so to be especially complicated or to make it sound very abstract or no, it's very that's what we can say. It's really an unreal something and nothing. It came to my mind the metaphor the theater because the hamlet is real and unreal because there is an actor doing that if we close the image to the
41:34 theater. So it it is true hamlet it is real acting as but in the same moment there is an actor doing which is >> there is no such thing as h at all never at no point in the story there is a real yeah >> so the illusion of the is not that the is fake is not by the nonual language to to be considered as fake usually and fake are different things f things fake So you are not saying usually a silent a different word to say fake because there is no fake. >> There is no fake or wrong even >> sorry >> or wrong >> or wrong. >> I mean I mean the me here is the mi just
42:21 doesn't want to be an illusion. It wants to be real. So it thinks it's a judgment. But no, it's just part of this neutral description. >> Yeah. >> And it's not fake or wrong. So you are very sincere when you say there's nothing wrong in the sense that there is no judgment of the appearance of something which is uh undivided with all there is. So how can be wrong something which is completely part of all the appearance of what seems to be happening >> of what seems to happen. >> Absolutely. And of course the the mei comes here with this deep expectation that there is
43:08 something wrong that there is a problem and in this context it turns itself into the problem but that's the intention and the expectation why it even comes here to find out what's wrong and to get rid of it. But that's not part of of this message or what I'm saying. That's not why why I'm talking >> changing to become a better version of itself that confuses with reading of itself. >> Yes. >> At the end of the reading of itself is a way to become better. >> Become a better me. Yeah. If I can become a know me, that would be the best version of me.
43:54 >> Oh yeah. Absolutely. And again energetically denying what happens and again denying the wholeness of what happens which apparently includes the sense of being in me. Which altogether again is how it is. Because this is the biggest contradiction so to speak to the person's idea of wholeness or of nonduality that the experience to be me and the
44:40 feeling to be separate and to be on an absolutely futile task on a futile mission that this is what seems to be happening and that this is the natural happiness that we talk about in the conceptual nondual world of the me. This is can't say that that's what we talk about because it looks at it. I'm still a me. I'm still seeking for no reason. This can't be it. That can't be what Andreas is talking about. But
45:27 that's what seems to be happening and all there is is what seems to be happening like it or not so to speak. So to feel to be separated is perfection as well to imagine or to be >> as what it is >> as the feeling to be separate and the suffering from it. There's no attempt to make it okay. The person again would use this as an escape. Thank god seeking is also whole and complete. So I can just go on seeking happily
46:13 which usually ends after two hours after the meeting. The happiness in seeking yes it is uncompromisingly whole and complete exactly as what it is. Same thing it's razor sharp. It's uncompromisingly what it is. At the same time it's the infinite. can't be comprehended at all. There's no space for someone to accept it, make friends with it, be okay with it, understand it. That would just be another futile task.
47:00 Yeah, that's in a way how direct this is. what we talked about when I say this is it the person still thinks that I'm somehow pointing to something the me usually thinks ah this would be it if I wouldn't be there then I would also see the same it then no this is it what seems to be happening exactly as it is without knowing it or understanding it or Also when I say all there is is what happens the person usually thinks all there is is what I understand that happens
47:45 but that's not what I mean all there is is very directly what seems to Yeah. >> Yes. Couldn't change what is because it already is. >> Exactly. Yeah. It can't. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It lives in this illusion, but it also can't change that that it's living in this illusion. It's
48:30 just there is no one session is just session, not sophistication. >> Exactly. Yes. It's not not owned by >> Yes. >> Nobody
49:23 So there is no become. There is no become because it requires to be a point where it wasn't completely was not there and then starts and becomes and when really stops to be there is not such path from nothing to being to nothing. >> Yes. Exactly. This whole thing doesn't happen as such. When you say there is no time, you you you point to this. >> Yes. >> Not like Einstein relativity stuff, but it's like >> yeah, it's all just timeless. The
50:10 timeless appearance, but also here one could say apparently. >> Yeah. >> Apparently there was no one. Then apparently there was the illusion to be someone and apparently that dropped. That's what seems to be happening. And at the same time it's timeless. At the same time there is no becoming no losing of wholeness or becoming of wholeness also real and unreal. Last week I discovered a sentence of philosoph
50:57 and he wrote um there is no body. It's just a constriction building of of the mind. But to begin, >> it's just intellect. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yes. There is no experience here of having become anything.
51:43 What the what what I so to speak was looking from my home that didn't happen. And also this apparent collapse of the illusion didn't bring this about. There is never any real becoming. But it sound the collusion. It sounds like something happened. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's why I tried to say the
52:28 apparent collapse of the illusion. The person will just left with a feeling that something happened to someone and an an apparent happening can't be comprehended. It is there's just no possibility to understand what an real and unreal liberation means. [Music] I know and usually the people the me has both ways in terms of saying there is liberation and then adoring this idea of liberation or to say there is no such thing as liberation and
53:14 it's all [ __ ] real and unreal liberation and grasp And of course unconsciously the Mi will always attach some kind of becoming to it. Even if it understood or can repeat those words of yeah I know there is no one who became liberated but the feeling unconsciously is that there is some kind of becoming and gaining something when I tell that story
54:01 but I mean it doesn't matter what the me believes or doesn't believe anyway It's living in an illusion anyway. So it it it comes it lives with a misunderstanding. It sits here with a misunderstanding and it will leave with a misunderstanding. No matter how clear I speak or unclear I speak, me will just be left in its world of I'm a me and I become something. I might even become a know me. A know me which will make me feel much better.
54:52 [Laughter] It's like the heaven me is always looking
55:38 everyone. Yes. Like a a collection of moments, a collection of experiences. >> That's what makes my life. That's the the essence of my life. That's how me would see it. The collection of experiences. Yeah. So they were not more than experiences. >> They were more than experiences. They were all real and unreal making an experience
56:24 of it. >> Absolutely. It was all the time the wholeness that it's looking for that it was assuming in the future. Yeah. It was all whole and complete. There was never anything missing. It was just chasing a fantasy. Yeah.
57:13 So when when you live in your own world, everything's separate and organized according to your own image about anything. So when so when you're looking at something that for example I'm looking at you at the wall I'm thinking that I'm seeing the world. >> Yes. Well you're not only thinking it you seem to experience it. >> Yeah. It's a live reality really. >> Absolutely. That's how >> Yes. Exactly.
58:02 >> Oh yes. For the me it's a felt sensed reality >> that only consists of the feeling that it's real. Oh, the person would go to war for them. I'm here and there is a separate wall. So me then might maybe play around intellectually okay when I don't have the story of a wall maybe it's not a wall or yeah it's true it's just molecules or something but this basic energetic impression >> that there is something here and that there is a separate wall it'll never go
58:49 beyond that it can never really question then. >> But it seems to me like I don't believe so much but I live it. >> Is it? Yeah. I like >> Yeah. It doesn't matter what you believe because it's just your experience. >> Whatever you do or whatever you don't do, whatever you believe or whatever you don't believe, that's just how it feels. As long as there is this illusion to be someone. until it collapses.
59:51 A few minutes ago you were talking with the gentleman there and you answered there is no for the first time I perceive the way I felt in the threat of language because language is a big channel. So you say there is no there is no and then me like if it's me is an object and the sentence denies the object but in a way there is no me is a phrase the meaning is previous of the phrase it's not composed by there is being >> no and then this me which is not existing But it's
1:00:36 >> the opposite of exist. No, there is no need. It's something that comes before. >> It's a whole thing. >> Yes. >> The nonexistence of their issata. He said what we talk about here is before me. so to speak before this illusion arose. Well, it never arose but yes >> because the reaction to the denial of the me and myself is like no because why you
1:01:21 have to deny something that I feel but >> that's comes before so you are not denying >> exactly I'm not >> there is nothing to deny >> absolutely and but you're completely right that's how the me would perceive believe it because it takes its existence as already given. So the mi can only hear it as a denial. How can you say there is no one? I'm here. So the starting point of the me would be I'm here and now as if I'm adding an additional reality to that. I'm here and now I should understand that I'm not here. No, it's before them.
1:02:12 There is no one. This me was never real. It never came into existence in the first place as what it assumes itself to be. Sometimes I even say, "Oh yes, it's there as an illusion, but never as something that was really born that really arose out of nothingness or fullness." >> Yes. Yes. And in that sense, it's also not talking to the me. I'm not talking to you as me trying to teach you that you don't exist.
1:03:00 It's a completely different well level if you want. So yeah. Yes. That's the dream that there is someone in the first place. Wow. >> Oh, that this me isn't me in the first place. And that's neither logical nor provable because they are not being anything
1:03:47 really is the uncaused natural reality. While again the me it's just what we talked about would always find a cause for its existence. Its existence is already conditional. Can be explained. Why are you here? Oh, because I'm aware of myself. >> There's already a path, a process. It's already in time. >> And therefore, you can find explanations and causes. But before this whole dream even appeared, there is just inexperienced
1:04:33 infinity, nothingness, holiness or whatever how you want to call it ungraspeness. And us sitting together here is this ungraspeness. It's again not some abstract weird absolute reality that some were separate from this. It is literally this and the only thing which would experience it as something would be the me that says I'm born out of love. But that never really happened. This birth is drenched and then so to speak there is really
1:05:21 nothing but not this dead nothing that the person is dreaming you not the black space or the the the the empty screen or whatever. No, this turns out to be the ungraspy or the illusion of grasping just collapses and it's not even ungraspable for someone. It's not that there is someone left. Oh, I can't grasp it. This whole attempt is already part of the drink. It's not an issue at all. Us sitting together in this room being ungraspable doesn't it doesn't need
1:06:09 anything to know anything about itself. Not. It doesn't have the slightest impulse to seek for its truth because the sense of me of I is ungraspable too. >> Absolutely. >> It cannot grasp itself. that >> that is already the illusion. I experience I know about myself because I'm experienced myself. Oh no, it is ungraspable. It's already a dream grasping. Nothing is aware of its existence in
1:06:56 that sense. It's really through and through an illusion. There is no awareness as such that is ever real. >> That is the fantasy. I am because I'm aware of myself. And there then there are some teachings which would even say um you can't understand what you are. You can only be what you are. Because the me can also understand that it can't really understand what it is even but still it is left with this notion but I exist
1:07:44 it can even go that far because when the mi ask when you say okay when the mi says I'm pure awareness and then it can even ask itself okay but what is awareness it comes to the same Okay, I can't know what awareness actually is, but I am >> and it can't go beyond that until it collapses. >> Then you have to go to awareness of awareness and awareness of awareness of awareness in >> an infinite step back. >> Exactly. That's >> the ground zero. >> Exactly. But it's actually never
1:08:29 stepping really back. It's just another personal experience. But that's how it feels then. So who's aware of being aware awareness? So then we will always be left with something that's aware of something and with the illusion that ah now I know or now I see the bigger picture or something. So what you say you cannot be that I know and I did I hear that clearly >> you said before you cannot be that it's impossible to be that >> no well I say I would say >> it's impossible to be that >> yes we all are that we don't have an
1:09:18 experience of being that that's how the me would see it >> that's how the mi would say okay if I And that >> I should be able to consciously experience it. That's the dream. >> Um is nobody or the group is nobody. >> Yes. >> And you speak at to nobody. >> Yes. just >> just like every woman actually. >> Yes. Yeah. >> It just
1:10:04 because I I'm looking I want to understand some sometime. >> Yeah. That's it. >> Nobody. >> Yeah. That's >> impossible to understand something. >> Exactly. Yeah. that you think you should understand what I say, but I don't even talk to you. >> Yeah. >> Yes. I found to understand. >> Yes, that's true. But it's also fine when it's >> happen in in >> every world. Everywhere. >> Everywhere. It's >> no limit.
1:10:50 >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Not in the world. Not in the room. >> Yes. Yes. >> To try to understand. >> Absolutely. >> Some people can go crazy from seeking. >> Yes. >> I suppose. >> Yes. I've heard, but I don't know if it's true, but I've heard there's a growing number of people getting crazy by trying
1:11:36 to be in the moment. >> Of course, the more serious you take it, the closer you are to craziness, because it doesn't work. The more serious the seeking becomes, the closer it is to getting crazy, which one can also see in religious fundamentalists, the the more serious they take their stuff, the crazier it gets. and dogmatic and person. >> But even to speak about energy is too much. They say this is energy. It's also
1:12:23 too much. >> Well, it's just ungrasable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's not really too much. But yeah, it doesn't really it's can't be used by >> Yeah. kind of language is not Yeah, it's making
1:13:09 I say a child from maybe six or seven years old that is already energetic in this me state [Music] >> not not questioning himself about it. >> Well, it depends. I actually know people who started seeking for the meaning of life when they were four or five. So it can there can be very deep existential questions even in that age. I know a few people who had them. I wasn't one of them. I was happy playing in soldier. Okay. Can be
1:13:55 but they can also be or there is usually just seeking. I was more like seeking for pleasure in the world as a kid and becoming someone becoming a pilot. and dreaming about being a pipe.
1:14:40 At the school they asking the kids what are you becoming. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. But usually they not only mean the profession they will also mean what will make you someone.
1:15:41 I'm wondering why say the serious one the best ones the VIP of the most speakers are so it seems to be now very focused on a language that negates negates some say no to something but >> that's a good question >> that now I feel that it is irritating even because maybe it's not so necessary to negate something which doesn't exist and maybe and I'm wondering why it happens like this because it's very similar and coherent in some speakers the appearance structure of language and
1:16:28 concept but why negates so much something that should be released from the begin because it is not so real. >> Well, I think that's a it's a very good question and I could maybe give a long answer because of course what I'm often accused of is of negating love and yeah, negating basically and holiness and all that stuff. The thing is that that's my impression. Um what we talk about here is not a teaching at all. It's not a concept or something that I carry around. In the end, it boils down to this very direct communications that we have here. To me,
1:17:15 this is not an official meeting where we discuss something. It's about you asking a question to this. And usually every question comes already from this position of the mi. And the mi is asking very simplified how can I become happy. And then there comes the negation. Then comes there is no one as a very direct answer to this question. And that's where that's my impression where these seeming negations come from
1:18:01 because basically it's constantly the me is there something like enlightenment? >> Yeah. >> No. Am I on a good path? No. Do you feel fulfilled, Andreas? No. [Music] But I understand it's it's a it's a it's a yeah >> is it by impression that you in the last years soft can meet this attitude to in your language I mean to negate and you are more in >> absolutely >> leaving the mystery going
1:18:49 often beat the negation Absolutely. >> Yeah. mind perhaps it's in in a very simplified terms one could say in a way you need the illusion to go away for there to for love and wholeness to grow and I think that's what happens in my story and I think that's what we are doing here in the way in a way just just get rid of what's in the way and then see for yourself because you can't teach wholeness. You can't tell everyone how great and beautiful and well that's what I thought at least. Maybe I'm wrong, but and it's
1:19:35 not that I consciously thought this through, but um wholeness and fullness is the natural reality that's there anyway. That's not something you can teach or need to teach. But to me, this message is way more or less a negation than the me hears it. And I think I know this this softened here and it's still softening. But maybe also because I see over the years more and more people who are just stuck in this. It's all or nothing. It's of no value. And or you see it on Facebook and people discuss each other. the moment
1:20:21 someone says something nice if nothing [Laughter] which I really don't like anymore but for me it never was meant like that but I think this seeming negation actually comes out of this very direct communications but the mean loves to turn it into a truth or this absolute truth and suddenly Everything is nothing >> and nothing has any value and that's crap and that's [ __ ] and that's [ __ ] People still believe in religion that's [ __ ] >> No, no, it's not [ __ ]
1:21:08 Nothing is [ __ ] in that in that sense. or people suddenly start hating gurus or something the stuff they believed in three months before for their whole life. It's suddenly it's not very it has nothing to do with what we talk about here in that sense. is is the response sort of undermining the question. The question >> say again >> the response from there is a sort of undermining the question and the question >> yeah but automat not with an intention to do so
1:21:55 >> absolutely but it's exactly what what we were talking about before when I say there is no one it's before the illusion that's the undermining Yeah. Yeah. That's the whole thing. It's undermining the dream of separation. And I mean usually people who are open more you can see it. My impression is I see it at these meetings that despite all those know and despite all these struggles that the seeker has when hearing this message often there is something very freeing and beautiful flowering out of it which is very surprising often for the people themselves because they thought they are
1:22:41 struggling >> but afterwards they feel relaxed and free and somehow more more full. But I always thought I don't need to mention it. Let's just get rid of the problem. The rest you'll see for yourself if you if you don't keep stuck in the negativity of your own of your own me world. >> While on the other hand, I think there is no possibility to jump over that.
1:23:38 But of course, I also think that's what's what makes people come back here because it's not about everything being nothing and dead and useless and I mean the energetic implication is it's whole and complete. It's this and it's free and yeah, it's not all those things that the person dreams about what this is. But it it goes way beyond I'm can't be enlightened. I can't find anything. What a depressive message. Yeah, that's the dream. Exactly. That's the
1:24:23 dream. There's something completely different that may become obvious energetically, not to someone or something that what we talk about here isn't just a concept or an unreachable goal. Everything being free and whole and complete and love in that sense. Unconditional love and that in a way we are that everything is that just not someone who needs to have an
1:25:11 experience of that from this separate position and feel good about itself. That's way too tiny and unimportant. Nothing. >> Yes. Can you say that uh everything is what it is only from no perspective and from personal perspective everything is something you >> yes and no I would make it a bit more clear >> seen from the personal >> experience everything seems to be
1:25:57 something >> it never becomes something it remains means nothing but yeah everything seems to be something. >> Yeah. It is live like it is something >> exactly. >> Yes. >> Yep. >> And from no perspective everything is what it is. >> So to speak but for no one. >> For no one. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. [Applause] And it's also really like u touching to see that everything is different. >> What do you mean? Oh well, yeah, one
1:26:42 could say. So, I don't really know what you mean with touching, but >> I don't >> because it can also be shocking touching >> when when some something when you're touched like >> in a positive way. >> Yeah. Well, it's it's touching that the prison isn't real, that the prison isn't real. And to live in this objectified reality is the prison. So when it turns out that this is a dream, this can be very touching. >> Oh, it's much more beautiful than I thought. >> Oh.
1:27:34 Oops. presence is much more presence in the body. The body feels very extends
1:28:24 to be happening a present and alive building. >> Then all the conclusions like storage say this is body presence when someone's awake in the morning is feeling. >> Yeah. But now you're referring to the experience of presence which is already separate from the body and that's when when the eye would start to happen this feeling ah I'm here. >> Yeah. And then of course after a few moments you remember who you are and why you are here.
1:29:11 >> Yeah. [Music] But what seems to be happening here is an alive body that has kind of a presence. I'm in here now on. But there is no experience to be present. There is no me present in here. It's real and unreal. [Music] sleep. Let's say that it's not his experience. So in the morning you wake then someone switch something on. >> Yes. >> The body experience.
1:29:56 >> No. But no, I'd say the me for most people the mi is switched on. >> Yeah. Because the body isn't switched on. >> So that experience is switched on. >> Yes. That's when the MI is switched on because I mean that's a bit theoretical now. But the body also lives at night. The heart is pumping. The brain is functioning. There is even hearing happening. That's we wake up and there's a loud noise. So the body isn't really kind of in dead mode and suddenly it is in a live mode. that's actually quite ongoing without a break actually one could say apparently.
1:30:42 So it's the me consciousness that wakes up in the morning and feels switched on. I'm awake. I'm here now. I haven't been here five minutes ago. But the body doesn't feel switched on. It just goes on living apparently. Because sleeping is basically also living >> but it's very body felt experience. >> It's very felt feels very switching on. >> Exactly. That's the feeling of oh I'm born suddenly out of nothing I'm there. me
1:31:28 would say, "Oh, I woke up." And then probably everyone knows this. There can be a few minutes of just pure awareness until the story comes back. But the birth of the mei started already with the awakening of awareness, so to speak. Something telling itself, I'm here. Something experiencing itself saying, Yeah, I'm awake now. I'm conscious of myself. That's the illusion.
1:32:16 So without that story reality is undefinable and undefined from the no perspective point you are talking about >> at any time >> yourself now. >> Yes. >> This is undefinable and undefined. >> Yes. It's not so not only that you cannot define to us but you you as undefined in this >> appearing moving is not going is not coming back is not >> even to say leaving is not exactly the way >> yes >> because it's a concept even leaving to leave is a concept >> absolutely
1:33:01 >> beyond is for me. >> Yes. And what I'm sharing is that this is the natural reality which is closer than experiencing. I'm not talking about concepts or stuff. It is like that and it's very different from what the me thinks or dreams about. Of course. Yes. Of course. It's unknowable undefined. By being this we let up with you know we talked about it doesn't become a blurry I have no idea thing
1:33:46 the distinct is the undefined >> yeah Alexis talks about not awakening but sleepening this is when you go When you fall asleep at night, you don't know the moment you So this awakening but sleeping >> seen from the main. Yes. >> And this all like I had a big headache and then you even notice when the headache is gone. Oh, my head is gone. Put some
1:34:42 Do you remember? I think I have one thinking important. I >> Yeah. When there is some >> Yes. >> Exactly. [Music] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't even know what is to think because to think is an idea. >> Yes.
1:35:28 >> It is appearing that no that we call think because we know story. >> But no one knows what thinking is. >> Yes. We have no idea. Only apparently, only in the appearance, we talk about thoughts as if they are real. But they never are.
1:36:23 It's so amazing. >> Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it's really amazing. So unexpected. So different from what the me thinks all its life. Yes.
1:37:50 Oh yeah. >> Yes. Sometimes it falls it feels like we're like falling and then you expect well there's there's a floor. >> It is. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's that's the fear that at one point someone hits the ground painfully but there is no ground.
1:40:47 Sorry if I go to a very silly concrete and linear theme that's theory in pal anthropology which says that the The reason why Sing won on the Vivander Palencis >> were because uh Neanderences has a lighter sense of need >> and people the adaptive strategy was to reinforce the me and to reinforce the sum of the M >> the community. of this one and then in the history let's call it uh the groups with chiefs and commanders and identity stronger
1:41:33 with the mean with identity collective or social or individual one with with the violence with arms against the people that have less sense of me. And now maybe >> we could say that now the MI is useless. It's not anymore. Uh so the survival of many we are here because it doesn't function anymore as a item of surviving against any other group. So nonuality is just the new step of evolution in biology. So I enjoy it. But it makes a sense that I also Well, I'd also be fine with being the
1:42:21 aven god of mankind. >> I can't say anything against that. >> I mean, in a way exist for many of us if we speak of like a psychological way. We're not talking about that. I know but I'm making this link for many of us the me is a burden even if we want to fulfill our life with a better me if we are here we have tried a lot of shots and we failed becoming the best version
1:43:08 and to be loved by ourself as fantastic so This payroll gets to the question, the very substantial question. Do I need to to keep to hold >> do I still need to go on B&B? Yeah, >> exactly. >> I mean, what would be the point if the answer is yes? What is the point if the answer is no? There is no one. >> There is no one.
1:43:55 There has never been anyone. But even if it would be like that theoretically and conceptual level, it would just confirm the freedom to let go of it. Now, yes, you don't need to be a me anymore. It's all right. It's all good.
1:45:00 I can talk for myself but I heard a lot of people in the circles that the fear the threatening is something very strong and real for the idea of losing >> absolutely that but it's really painful because there is a fear like animal fear like they say you have terminal cancer you to today's shock. >> Yes. That's how real and existential it can this illusion can feel. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. The body isn't as much afraid of dying as the mi is.
1:45:46 Yeah. Otherwise, there is no reason to refuse this message if it wouldn't be so frightening. >> Absolutely. It's energetically frightening. >> We could accept and we realize it's cute, but the the struggle is that we we are really worried about. >> Yes. It it it boils really down to this most existential question fear to the sense of existence itself which for the person is everything and that's why it's so afraid.
1:46:33 Yeah. I don't know why or how but that's what seems to be happening. Andreas had that experience in his tail in his tail when Andrea was a reality had fear or it went smoothly. >> It was rather smooth and regarding fear and fear of death. I didn't have that much in my life. >> Okay. But of course, I was also a bit shocked when I noticed that it's about my life and not about some me illusion that's going to drop at some point for me.
1:47:22 Yes. Oh yeah, of course there is a fear of death. It was a wish to die, but also a fear of dying. Because of course, when I wanted to die, you know, out of desperation or I wanted it to all be over, of course, I was still hoping that it'll be over for me and then I'll be free afterwards. But all in all, compared to other stories, fear of death wasn't my main issue. with with the apparent the death of the me goes away is wiped away at world story family that universe in a way
1:48:11 >> is attached to all the crown >> the perception of reality >> exactly >> all the reality >> that's to be human to Yes, that's what I mean. It wipes out reality itself. But the person is the sense of reality and it's so dependent on there being a real world because it needs this real world to find fulfillment in it. and all the things that seem so valuable. The person really thinks I'm already half fulfilled because I have a family, because I have a job, because I have an experience of the world.
1:48:58 So yeah, it goes against everything the me thinks is worthwhile and important and meaningful. >> We loved people. We loved memories. Yeah, >> all the things, >> all the things where the person thinks I already gain things out of it. Maybe I didn't have complete fulfillment, but I already get a lot from life, from my friends, from my family, from the position I have, from the wisdom I have, from the insights I have, from the story. All those things already give me, Lord.
1:49:43 And now I'm supposed to let this all go >> in exchange of nothing. In exchange of >> for nothing. >> Exactly. >> That's that's how it would feel for the person because the person thinks all those things are real. and personal as if they as if I own them even. I mean the owning would be they are my experience. They are mine part of my life.
1:50:30 >> So you should be a pro of the afterlife. our perspective and after life you are sharing don't worry because when I live life still lives >> doesn't look too bad >> energetically I'm just holding your hand cracking a few jokes saying it's all Right. That would be another description of these meetings. I know you're afraid, but it's all right.
1:51:17 There is no one. Don't be scared. >> It is the opposite of how me interpretates the message for a long time. me has no idea at all about what we talk about. >> I'm Could you say that's because the me thinks we're here to help it along its path? >> Yeah. The me thinks this is a personal message and that I'm guiding it into a more fulfilled future.
1:52:02 They can't see any other way. >> Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's all right. I Yeah, don't expect anything else from the me. >> All right. So, there is >> there is no one, there is no me. There's just this perfect boundless freedom and love. Thank you. >> Thank you. [Applause]
