0:00 So, I'll give an introduction sort of just sort of to lay the groundwork of what we're going to be talking about. But I guess this is part of it. But anyway, that it's not about the words in the end. It's I mean it the words do have a certain value to them as far as not being misleading is about the best you can do. So there's an experience that that can appear in the body that has the sense of being the owner of the knower of the body and when we talk with each
0:45 other what'll happen is that experience will know what we're talking about. So this will say something like this is um insubstantial and it's already insubstantial. That that being said doesn't change it. But that experience of knowing it's in the body will then either think it knows what that means or feel like it's something that it needs to learn. And it will do that with everything we're talking about. That's not a problem. And understand the concepts which we're going to discuss today can be in some ways relieving or relaxing. Also really annoying. I understand.
1:32 I got a lot of guesses for the annoying. Um so it's not about changing that. It's just merely pointing out that that experience isn't what we're what in the end we're talking about. What we're talking about at the end doesn't actually have to do with what's happening in the sense of knowing what's happening. That separate experience lives in a world of a subject object reality. And its happiness and unhappiness is dependent upon what's happening, how it feels, and what it thinks. And so in its dream world of separation, it tries to control, tries to manipulate not only its own feelings
2:17 and thoughts, but circumstances. Being separate, that's that's the only place that hope for it lives is in in the future because it's not this. Hope isn't this. You got that, right? Hope is always somewhere else. That's why hope isn't so great. But anyway, don't tell the me that it's always trying to manipulate this to have in hope to have a better experience in the future. So, in that way, it literally can't hear what we're talking about. It's it's sort of like there's two realities that sort of collide here. There aren't two, but you know, just to to explain it, it's like there's two realities that collide. the one that feels like it knows what
3:04 this is. Part of that is the feeling that it has meaning and purpose and that the appearance is full of intention. Meaning it's becoming something and what's being shared here which has none of that and this isn't changing. So even that dream world of separation of knowing already doesn't have any real intention is already the same insubstantiality that everything already is already hopeless because it isn't going anywhere. The intention that it feels like this permeates this that everything needs something needs to be happening so that this will get better meaning its
3:50 experience will get better. will have a better experience is already empty. It's already done. And that's how the two the two sort of realities don't meet. All this can all this does all this shares is that what is is already what's longed for. And that's just meaningless to that experience that feels like something needs to happen in the future. That its whole life is about becoming something. And even this saying it's already done. If there's a knower, it's going to say, well, that's something I need to find. That's something I need to know. I don't know it.
4:37 There's no way to know what we're talking about. the value that the individual has on the knowing of experience and the becoming in its in its dream world of of real time is is emptiness appearing to happen. It already isn't going. This isn't changing. What this is saying and it might be difficult to understand isn't actually changing anything. there isn't any intention because from where from this perspective we can get into that um it's already done it's already insubstantial
5:26 yeah Yeah. That was the introduction. Can you say more about an unsubstantial? Insubstantial. unsubstantially ins whatever you use whatever insubstant I don't know I think it's insubstantially just um so for the individual the experience is um
6:12 people seem to identify it differently but the sense is is I either have a body or I am a body it's one of those two and that experience is one of being a reality I know I am I am real and that I am I'm real is also experienced as everything is real and that works in all I want to say dimensions it's not that special but you know with time and space and experience and all those things all of that is real and part of that substantiality and part of that experience of being real is that my experience or my reality has meaning it
6:58 has purpose I have free will and it's up to me to create a reality that that's all part of that substantiality or real solidity of this and it's experienced as things being yeah fixed separate so I've heard you say that seeking is suffering yeah um but my my question is suffering isn't necessarily seeking, right? Would you say that um seeking is just one kind of suffering? No. No. The energy of seeking and the substantial making that so just because the individual feels like it is
7:45 substantial and everything else is substantial doesn't make it substantial. The individual is actually an illusion. It doesn't actually happen. It isn't real. But that energy of sust substantiality is what gives emotions and feelings their sense of substantiality and that is the suffering that the individual experiences. If there isn't anything to give it substantiality or the experience of it then it's just simply what it is which is is what can't be described being an emotion or a feeling. And and does the substantiality or the sense of substantiality necessarily um correspond to seeking? Yeah. Oh yeah.
8:31 You you don't have a seeker without an individual and you don't have an individual without seeking. It's the same energy. When when that separate sense arises what what happens fundamentally is there's a sense of loss or a sense of something missing which is reflected in the experience of the individual which fundamentally feels like something needs to happen that something needs to happen even if it is just knowing I am is is a is a a reaction to the sense of loss which is separation. Separation is a sense of loss. Okay. So, the sense of loss will always create that desire to not be separate
9:16 anymore. Oh, it No, it doesn't want to. It doesn't want to not It doesn't want what we're talking about or maybe a longing rather than a desire. Yeah. What it wants is is more. The sense of loss being insatiable. It can only look for more. And in the in the personal experience, that's just simply looking for a better experience. Being good enough, having the right experiences, finding the right, you know, whatever partner, Netflix movie, enough money, whatever it is, it's always something. It always it has the sense that it's its fulfillment, which it can't find. It can only find satisfaction, is hidden in the next thing it can achieve. And so it's on
10:02 that wheel. Even if it is surrender or giving up or sitting in a cave, whatever that intention appears as, there's there's the idea behind it that what's what's really wanted is not longing is is hidden in the next experience. And that if it had enough experience or the right experience or enough stuff that it would find fulfillment, but it can't because fulfillment isn't in that dualistic reality. And the real problem for the individual is that whatever is happening is the fulfillment that's longed for. It just isn't something that it can have because it's not separate.
11:32 It's interesting that that seeking drive doesn't even satiate the older you get. I look at my own mother and she's ill and, you know, ready to pass on and she's still watching HGTV, HGTV, looking for her next home improvement project. I'm not saying that if there wasn't seeking, there wouldn't be watching HGTV. It's there's an energy of seeking that thinks that what's longed for is an object to be found. Yeah. So there might not, you know, it there doesn't need to be a seeker to be to watch HGTV or earn a lot of money or
12:20 any of those things. Yeah. All I'm saying is that when there is an individual, there's an idea that what's long what's what you know happiness is hidden in objects in getting right and I can see that in her you know that she's still you know trying to get, you know, fulfilled through that, you know, and it's not going to happen. Seeking energy might make someone more likely to watch HGTV, right? I I don't know what HGTV is, but um or just any any uh not necessarily.
13:06 What if if there wasn't any seeking energy, there wouldn't be any sort of spiritual practice. That's that's obvious. there wouldn't be any religion because those are all sort of answers that the individual can understand and make sense to it and actually agree with its idea um with its actually bodily felt idea that there's something that needs to happen because though spirituality and the most spiritual traditions and things and religion always agree with the individual yes there's something something missing And yes, there is a you that has free will. And yes, there is something you need to do to find fulfillment.
13:51 So it it fits, you know, fits. It seems like the separate the individual person that's doing seeking for my personal experience anyway is seeking um perhaps relevance like looking for relevance. Yeah. And so then in looking for that relevance, it can I mean it literally could use anything and everything in the search. Yeah. And then all of a sudden when this makes my heart pound to even say this all of a sudden when whatever that
14:37 is that doesn't seek relevance Yeah. sees the relevance or the or the the separate self see like when it's seen I don't know there seems to be this back and forth play. Yeah. But like when that relevance it's like the gig is up like this this this mirage is seeking to be seen and then it's like something shows up that says well it's a mirage. I don't know how to put it. It's like the relevance go there's just no relevance anymore. Yeah. I don't know. It erases. I don't know. I'm trying to say. So it it's not personal to you but or anyone in that sense. There isn't anything personal. But this sense of
15:23 separation feels special. They just fundamentally feel special. Yeah. Yeah. And it wants that reflected in the experience that it's special. Yeah. And then that other part that doesn't seem to care about much at all that everything it seems like this play. I don't know for me I there's this back and forth whatever. But then that other part sometimes is like it's not even real. Like the specialness that it seeks is there's no such thing as what it's seeking. No, it's not it's not even it's not real. Well, what it's seeking is relevant to it.
16:09 Yeah. So, it's like this whole separate little thing. It's a whole separate reality. Yeah. Called me. In my reality. Yes. And sometimes I can see it. Oh, I didn't. It just hit you like a train. No, it didn't. It doesn't happen. The what we're talking with where this is coming from isn't because something happened to Jim. It's because there isn't a gym. Yeah. But what did you not see when you said I didn't see it? It wasn't that back and forth to me. It sounds a bit like a spiritual practice of um detaching from the sense of relevance or needing to become or something like that. another another position being taken as
16:56 opposed to that one which is a better one. And detachment is something that totally makes sense to the individual. It's it's part of the suffering is thoughts and feelings which are seem they it suffers under thoughts and feelings and so it it sounds like a good idea to sort of pull back from that and see that's not me something like that. Gotcha. And that feels better. But there's still a position that knows it's not me. This doesn't know it is or it isn't. And in that way, everything just is and isn't.
17:42 Can't tell you anything. I don't know. I only say that after you pay. Thanks for nothing. So I've heard you say that, you know, this is it. This is all there is or whatever. But then so I didn't understand the Oh, what' you say? Yeah. And then but then when you said you just said this is and this isn't, I didn't where where was that going? Oh, the insubstantiality of it. Oh, this is it. And this is insubstantial. Oh, okay. Okay. Thank you.
18:32 So, is there a point to discerning? No. That was awesome. [Applause] [Laughter] Oh, that was awesome. Never mind. [Laughter] Well, I was curious because when you were What's your name? Nancy. Nancy. when you're talking to Nancy um you know sort of explaining that that was some kind of practice there's no point in knowing that or
19:18 recognizing that there's no real point to anything because it seems that the self is is can't help but seeking whatever or practice or whatever he does. Yeah. And this can't help but to point out the hopelessness of it. The illusory nature of it. It just does.
20:18 Did you just say this? Can't help but point out but to point out the helplessness of it. Yeah. Hopelessness. Hopelessness. I love it. When you say this, you're referring to that body mind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not really about the body mind, but I know what you mean. It's It's Oh, now you have to say it. It's nothing. It's nothing. which which apparently happens. True. And so the body, mind, and the table and the floor are the same really.
21:06 It's nothing flooring and tableling and and body minding. It's the same there. It's the reason I can't tell you. It's not separate. There's no authority, no hierarchy. It's it's all already nothing appearing to happen. And within that nothing appearing to happen there arises this sense of separation which says I'm I'm doing this or I am real or this is real and that you know that sense of separation is the s is the separation from that fullness which is nothing everything. It doesn't change it though because there isn't anything but nothing
21:52 everything. So it doesn't really matter that there's an individual the the illusory experience of an individual saying I'm on a journey of becoming because that's nothing being an individual on a journey to become. It's it's wonderful. And when when when we say that that there's just nothing appearing as this and that, you and me. Um, we're just talking about experience,
22:37 right? We can't say anything about what's other than experience. Like I I know that I I seem to experience the world. But that's the illusion and and that's that's an illusion, right? So that that illusion exists within experience and the world that I seem to be experiencing. No, no. The the illusion is the experience. Mhm. Okay. Um which is which is in the experience of the individual. It's a landing spot. So this seems to hit here and be registered as something really happening. That doesn't happen here. There's no landing spot, right? There
23:24 isn't anyone here. There isn't even here. There's no location. There isn't even a here to know that there isn't anyone here for this to to land anywhere. It's just just happening. Okay. But but we can't say anything about what's there there could be something other than what appears, right? We know that what appears is nothing appearing as something. But there there could be a world apart from what appears that you can't say anything. But that's what appears. Could
24:09 there be aspects of the world? There's only what appears. There's only There's only what appears. And the idea that there's other aspects are what appears. So there's nothing that doesn't appear. There's nothing. Well, there's just what appears. The idea that there's nothing that doesn't appear is just what appears. There's just what appears. There's just what is and isn't. It's not the individual sees it as limited because it reduces its experience where it has hope. Another way of saying hope is something else for the individual. It lives in a world that there's something else. Something missing turns into something else. It's like a treasure somewhere. Something unknown that it could find something somewhere else. And
24:55 it although it seems unlimited that sort of idea that it can go in all sorts of different directions, it's still limited to the experience of the individual. True boundlessness is that there is only what is. Has absolutely no edges or limits to it anywhere. Anything is what is. Whatever appears is what is. Mhm. Is there a sense in which the core of the earth is even though it's never appeared? Well, the idea of it that that that is what is the idea that there's a a core to the center of the earth that has never appeared. We're not talking about necessarily physically. Anything that appears, a memory, a feeling, anything that can be
25:43 named is what appears. So any idea that comes up that's what is what's no longer relevant is the reality of it. So for the individual ghosts it's important or God it's important or ESP or spiritual experiences those have whole real importance to it because it has this idea of something else where it's dream where it's need the fulfillment is hidden. So those things have value. They don't really makes no difference if there are ghosts, if there's ESP, spiritual experiences, God. Makes absolutely no difference because it's all nothing appearing to happen. It's just simply what is. When there
26:30 isn't anyone seeking anything, then there's just what appears. It doesn't matter. So the idea of the core of the earth Yeah. appears. Yeah. Um, but there there couldn't be an aspect of the core of the earth that doesn't appear that just appeared. The idea that there's an aspect of the core of the earth that hasn't been realized or found or something like that. And there might even be research into that. There might be somebody that finds a ship that can drill through the earth into the core and find that aspect that has never been known. And before anyone had ever imagined that there could be a court of the earth, it it didn't appear in any way, shape, or form. Well, it appeared in somebody's imagination or the idea
27:16 that there could be something down there. That's the reason they built the ship. Mhm. But before that happened, when no one had even, you know, thought of it before, um, it just didn't exist at all even though it seemed to be having effects on the planet. Absolutely. And through the laws of physics. Absolutely. like misons and and whatever else they've just found those little tiny particles out of which everything seems to be built. Everything was still built out of the Higs bosen or the Higs Bosen still gave solidity reality to everything even though no one knew it was there. Even though Higs said it was, nobody believed him, it was still apparently doing it. And then they
28:02 found it and they go, "Oh, well that's what's doing it, right?" But did it not exist in any way before it appeared as a concept in someone's mind? As an idea, of course, it must have existed. But before it was an idea. Yeah, totally. Must have. Just like the earth, even though even though before Galileo, everybody thought the the earth was the center of the universe. Mhm. I think they killed him, didn't they? Or did they just want to? I can't remember cuz it was You weren't allowed to say that. But it still wasn't, right? But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because there isn't anything hidden in those discoveries.
28:47 There isn't anything of value in knowing there. It's either recognized or it's not. It's either unreal, un undiscovered, or it's not. It doesn't mean anything. It's just it's just what is what's longed for isn't hidden in that. What's longed for is speaking and hearing and flooring? Right. I'm just wondering if there are things could there be things that aren't longed for things that have never been thought of like before anyone had thought of the Hig boson. Would the Hig boson have been an example of something that exists but doesn't appear? Um, I I don't know. I think I I think really
29:32 what we're talking about is what I just talked about. The idea that in the end enough knowing or not knowing something that's out there could lead to something really missing and that there's some value in knowing more and that knowing more there's a hope that at some point enough will be known. I think that's basically where that's coming from. But there isn't any value in any of that. But of course, that's what discovery is. They discover new things all the time. They always will. As long as the individual or even a scientist looks, he'll discover, she'll discover something new. Something that existed but wasn't appearing to until now. Totally. Okay.
30:47 One more followup. All right. Well, this is it then. This until you're next. So, if it existed but wasn't appearing until now, could that have been an example of something that existed but wasn't nothing? Everything is nothing. Everything that appears is nothing. But how can we say that? How can we say anything about what doesn't appear? Every all that all there is is nothing and it appears as this room. And it can appear as the idea that there are undiscovered realities. But what they what isn't hidden is
31:34 anything of value. Mhm. Not only is the appearance not trying to become a better appearance, but what's longed for is already this. There isn't anything hidden of value, right? And in that way as this is the only value there isn't any value it's already done in the hot seat. So obviously I come to your meetings and whatever but lately there's been this voice which is like I don't want to be nothing you know I don't want to be an illusion. I don't want to be the only thing that's completely unreal. Right?
32:20 The only thing that's completely unreal is the me. It's like I don't want to be that. Like but there's somebody here saying that or there seems to be somebody here saying that. Yeah. And like the other day somehow magically like all of my past suffering wasn't real. Like it happened. I have memories but somehow I can't explain it. Okay. But it's like all of the years and years and years decades of misery and suffering and suicidal blah blah blah blah. It's like somehow that like never happened. And I wanted to keep it. Like I wanted to hang on to it. Like I really wanted it to be. We wanted it really to happen that nothing oh that the suffering was really like you know okay if my suffering ends now so to speak now forward that was okay the idea that they're actually on some sort of path
33:06 and that it has some value and that if it all disappears then nothing ever had any value. Yeah. I know it's kind of whiny. I don't like that's not what I was saying. I was saying the movie prize. Nobody wins. I think it's whining myself. I was saying that yesterday. Such a whiny little. No, I get it. the especially when there's been a lot of suffering and with very spiritual people who feel like they're, you know, just about to become enlightened, they'll get really angry at us.
33:52 They're the worst. Spiritual people are the worst. I've been called out. I'd like to wine now. So, you're talking about earlier about all this landing somewhere. Yeah. So, the eye I am landing here. The eye is a landing spot for what's happening. That's the experience of it. But the eye the the experience of it is also landing here. Yeah. Well, and not really. It's sort of the the genesis of landing somewhere.
34:38 What does what does that mean? The beginning. So it's so when you say that part of this is very sad and disappointing the what is that that the realization of that the eye is always the that this is always the genesis of where the eye appears. Yeah. That that's sad and disappointing is not necessarily. Well, I mean, I don't know. I don't think I said that the me the message is disappointing to the It can be. Yeah. Yeah. It can be very freeing. Okay. So, I guess that's maybe where that would come from is like, okay, well, if this is always the genesis of where I is appearing, then there was nothing before that, so I don't I don't exist. So,
35:25 that's the sad part. It it can be fed. Some people can. Yeah. Yeah, it can be can be sad, can be all sorts of things. You know, the the MI has an investment in its in its experience. And so, however that's however this then lands or doesn't land. There doesn't have to be any emotion at all. There might just be a sentence. There might just be a body getting up
36:12 and leaving and going, "Oh, there's no one here. It's that simple. It's not a process. I know we're talking about different things for people happening and all of that, but it's all what I would call a story. an explanation of how this came to be as a result of all the other moments that came before it. But there aren't. I mean, we talk about it and it's fine because that's what happens. There's an apparent history, but it's just simply nothing appearing as an apparent history. So, there's no process or need for any emotions or anything else to happen. All this is saying is there is an experience of separation which is an
36:59 illusion which hides the fact that everything is already whole and the illusion is wholeness appearing as an illusion. [Music] Jim, you had talked about um in previous um conversations about how when the when when you when it was recognized that the meaning was never there, it wasn't recognized until it was actually
37:46 leaving. you know, at that point. Could you talk a little bit about that? I mean, how I don't know I don't know what I don't know what you're talking about exactly. So, in the story of Jim, there were all sorts of insights and realizations and all that stuff, but the end isn't something that happened, right? So, I wouldn't have said that it that it happened. Okay. Or that it never really was there. Oh, totally. Yeah. It never it came to the realization that it never was there. Yeah, totally. Yeah. But that wasn't realized until, you know, it was actually falling away. Oh. Well, and the So, in the story of Jim,
38:32 there was an apparent process of it falling away and a lot of insights and realizations happened in that apparent time. But the end of it is is that there it never was there. Well, the end of it isn't anything. There isn't there just isn't any separation. Yeah, that's so interesting. Well, it's it's these two realities that don't meet in the in the story of the individual. It wants something that to happen. Yeah. And so it wants to make there being no one something that happens, right? And what it can't here is there isn't anyone already. Yeah. So
39:19 it can't happen that it falls away. Yeah. It's so profound to me. Is there And when you say the end of it Yeah. What is that? I mean, is is there a story? So there it's just a story. That's just a story. How can there be an end to something that never happened? And that's what it is. The end of something that never happened. And those insights that happened in the apparent Yeah. process, Yeah. were they relevant? No. Well, nothing. They seem relevant at the time and
40:05 important and maybe even a little bit more special and important. There's no one here. Oh, can we do that again? [Laughter] [Music] You said something like individual is invested in their experience. Yeah. Like
40:52 trying to find some return on my investment. Yeah. Absolutely. return like the stock market these days. That's right. unknowing at the end of it. No, absolutely. Exactly not. So, how is there a how do you how have you come to the end
41:39 of it? Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's the end of something that never happened. Yeah. Figure it out. You think I should do better than that? this well even this like to me this is indescribable undefinable how do I how does anyone everyone's this is different isn't it oh no of course not it's all if he's talking if you there's two things happening there if you're talking about the individual the individual feels like there's 15 different real perspectives in the room its perspective and all the others perspectives And so that's evidence of separation, right? And that that's the
42:27 experience of the individual of having a position and knowing its position is real. When when there's an individual, its reality is I am real and it sees other realities in every body. The same reality that it has and that confirms and it does actually and the other bodies will actually confirm it as well that there's different other realities. But yeah, there aren't just the appearance. It's just an appearance of nothing. There aren't different realities. No, it seems like we're all sitting there this
43:14 from here. There are bodies sitting in a room and they're all nothing. There's no one in the room. There's just body. So at some point in in in that body or or in anybody, you're saying there's no So there was a seeker, but you're saying there never was a seeker. I get that. But at some point there was a recognition that there's no seeker. No. Well, I mean, it depends on what you're talking about. There were realizations that there is never is a you. There isn't a you to follow. Yeah. There was a
44:00 sort of a thing that, you know, as part of the story of Jim where it saw how the whole thing it fell apart in this opposite order in which it builds up. And so I'll talk about that sometimes. How was a hear and a knower done all that there's kind of but that's all just story that's just another story. Yeah. It's all about that all of that feeds into that sort of knowingness you know information. But what's really longed for is the end of the need to know what this is. Knowing is its own demand. The individual if you go further knowing is experience and that experience that need
44:46 for experience is really just to know I am in fundamentally that's the most terrifying is that not only is that elusive but what's truly longed for is the absence of that. So, I have a little my little granddaughter and it's so funny because she's going to be two in two months and just seeing the shift in her from when she was even one when there was no wreck. It's just looking around and you know I watch her and I'll watch her on her on the monitor while she's napping and she's doing she just looking and she doesn't and now she's starting to grasp. She'll say mine and she has way she has
45:32 tantrums. she'll have like way, you know, way more where she never used to. It's so interesting. It's like the all the concepts are starting to I'd be wary of saying that tantrums are only there because there's a building individual or the sense of separation. Emotions are just emotions. So, do they seem to get stronger? when there isn't anyone. Yes. Emotions become stronger when there isn't anyone. They don't seem to have the same duration, but they do seem to have quite a energy.
46:23 But some emotions are no longer there like shame and guilt and Yeah. all those self-reerential ones that have to do with being the individual's really something that's very important to it is um self-image and so all of those emotions that have to do with self-consciousness go away go away so feelings can happen without a filter there's no no someone no filter but that's and then sometimes if there's a filter Then it it appears differently like shame and guilt if there's someone having that. That's right. So it's not that emotions just disappear. There's only certain Well,
47:09 not here anyway. I think there's some states people get into where they can keep themselves from feeling emotions. a state that isn't the nothing. Well, everything is nothing. Oh, I just love that. But, you know, I think mo I mean a teacher will have to be in some sort of estate. they'll have to know something you don't. And and and part of that state is
47:56 um the experience that there's someone that there they can tell what they know. Can you talk a little bit about the sense of self like getting stronger, feeling stronger and feeling weaker? Yeah. you're approaching something and that feeling appro approaching some sort of like liberation or something like that like is that all just part of the feeling of of self as well? Yeah, that it's it's feeling like I'm very much a self versus it's dissipating. Yeah, that's all. Yeah, it's the same thing. Yeah, I mean it might be true.
48:43 Uh okay. But it's still a story, right? I have a question about love. I thought you asked you asked the last one of 30 minutes. Oh, one more. One more. I can hold up. That's right.
49:30 Love want. So you you say that uncondition you say that nothing is all there is. You also say that unconditional love is all there is. Yeah. And so different terms for the same thing, I guess. Yeah. Um I I understand why you would call it nothing because nothing has no attributes. So I don't understand why I call it nothing. Uhhuh. Okay. Um, but I understand even less why you would call it love because it seems to this mind that love has attributes. Um, there's a reason why we use that word. You're talking about love in in a way that you understand.
50:15 I don't I don't understand unconditional love. I don't understand nothing. Mhm. But why use why use the term unconditional love? What what is Oh, because that's what it is. According to according to who or what? Why not call it something else like indifference or any other? Oh, well, it's not indifference, but it is love. Oh, unconditional. Uh but what what prompts that body mind to call it unconditional love? Is there some something about it, some kind of feeling about it or some way of experiencing it that it is it is the
51:03 unconditional part. Mhm. which is the love bin, which is what we're talking about for the limitless, the boundless, without judgment, without need, without and and so without judgment doesn't mean there isn't any judgment. It just means it doesn't have any value. It's it's boundless. So it can appear jud obviously there's judgment, but there's no judgment about that. There's obviously limits but it's all boundless. So it's boundlessness appearing as limits. So there's no value in the apparent limits or space or appearances or separation.
51:53 What I can't tell you is what unconditional love is. Just like I can't tell you what nothing is. Did you say nothing? You can't tell what nothing is. Yeah. Nothing can say what nothing is. So, so it's the it's the unknowability of love that leads you to use that term. That's too rational. It isn't it isn't a um rational deduction that comes to unconditional love. It's much more inspiration. obvious unreflected unreflectedly obvious. It's Yeah.
52:39 Okay. So maybe at some point this body mind will be like, "Oh, now I see." Yes, it really is. So it's not about that body mind because what you mean when you say body mind is me. Mhm. And it doesn't it's not because something happened here that this is the way it is. If it were that way, then there would be a path. This would have to be pure. Then you'd have to eat all sorts of white and brown rice, raw vegetables, become a bretharian or something. Or that would all have value.
53:25 But it's not dependent on this. It's not dependent. It's already everything. Everything. So I think I heard you say once something like unconditional love. It's it's it's not it's one thing. It's unconditional and therefore it's not the love like we call romantic love or whatever. It's just this what is and it's unconditional. So I think I think for me I can get caught up in all these other things I think love means but it but we put unconditional in front of it then then that's gone. Well the point is is you can't figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. You can't this isn't I'm not when I'm
54:10 talking about unconditional love it's not a feeling. It's not something that this knows and yet it's obvious. Yeah. But it's equally obvious there. It's just overlooked in the and there it's just overlooked in the need to know it or the idea that it's a something that it's a feeling or something to to that.
54:56 obvious because it can't be defined in this. Obvious because it's unreflected because because it's not it's just it's just the best I can do. It's not a recognition or a realization or a perception. There isn't someone here that sees it, but it just is that way. So obvious. So you can't know it and you can't feel it. Well, it's not that you can't know it. You can't feel it. It's just that there isn't a you. But it can't be known and it can't be felt. No. Well, it's it's a little bit more inclusive than that. Knowing is it appearing as knowing. Feeling is it appearing as feeling.
55:47 Otherwise, the mi is going to go looking for something it can't know. Do you know what I mean? It's like, oh, it's something I can't know. Where's that hidden? It's in the one place you'd never look. What is already in the place the place you can't look. Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. Here's my secret note. There isn't a U.
56:34 Who you writing it to? [Laughter] Yeah, they just love Oh my gosh. It's just the death. I don't get it, but it's the best. That's the punch line. Yeah. Yeah. Who was who writing it to? My Just keep going back to the original conditional. There's no conditions.
57:22 That's right. So there's no discernment. Yeah. So that's it's like whoa. No orientation. No, no context. No, no see. No. Does it make it of course I know there's not Does it make it easier to fly all over the world when there's no orientation and you get there and you're just there because you were always there. Yeah. Well, you weren't always there but it's just what's happening. There's just what's happening.
58:14 So does that mean comparison doesn't happen? Not not that it just doesn't have any value. So it can still sort of but if there's no personal comparison, what does that mean? Well, it's just not about if there's a better person, which is the idea that the individual has sort of two, well, it has a lot of modes, but in one aspect has sort of two modes. Either there's something wrong with me or there's something wrong with the world. And comparison in its reality has to do with those things and making them better. Trying to make the world better, trying to make itself better. And in the end, that's about finding fulfillment of
59:02 And so that sort of comparison doesn't happen just like that sort of judgment doesn't happen about whether you know how people should be. The story of judgment for the individual is a story of how it's going to find happiness. And so everyone that does the things that it thinks are going to bring happiness then they're good people and the ones that don't are bad people. And so that that's just part of the illusion of separation. So is the that sense of self kind of like something that has to be no continue like managed managed in a way as it's
59:47 realized that it's just a thought. Well, it's not a thought an appearance. No, the the separation begins it all happens truly timelessly but just as an expl as I said before this all how it fell how it built up you know it fell apart wasn't the end of me it was just another sort of realization so it's not really have any value but it it's a contracted energy in the body which for no reason at all says here and that here is a sense of having something or owning something and out of that comes out of that position is an I am here and that I am here is an energy in the entire body. So that contracted
1:00:34 energy is in the entire body and thoughts and feelings happen. They just happen like anything like chairs and floors happen when there's an individual just like with chairs and floors because the for the individual those are happening to it. the um thoughts and feelings are its thoughts and feelings, but it's an energetic um sense in the body, a held energy in the body of being here and knowing nothing to do. Well, there isn't anything that needs to happen. Doing happens. It's got nothing to do with that. There isn't any one to do anything. But fundamentally it knows it
1:01:22 has something to do and what it you know I mean it depends on where you start but power position and prestige are its fundamental motivators and control and free will are its tools. All of that's illusory, but that's what it feels like it has to manipulate its experience to get in the end what it wants is endless happiness. It's never thought it through because if it was happy all the time, it wouldn't know it. That'd be boring. So really, what it wants is what it has, which is happy and unhappy, which is suffering. So it's quite happy to be unhappy as long as it can be happy again. [Music]
1:02:15 As long as I'm suffering, there's some direction and meaning to my life. Totally. It gives me some focus. Oh, I'm seeking end of suffering. But if I don't have it, what do I do now? Yeah. Well, but if there if there isn't anyone there, there isn't that question. There is a question here. That's a way to make a problem out of something that's not happening. It just seems like it just seems like when all that fades away and there's just this freedom like it's too much somehow. It's like this is too much freedom. Yeah. Like there's nothing to hold on to. Like Arjuna, show me your face. Show me your face. Oh, never mind. Do you know the story? No. Oh, in the Bhagavad Gita there's Arjuno
1:03:01 who's the main character and he he claims that he wants to know God the I don't know the god whatever. Yeah. And then he says all I want you is to reveal your face. And he does or it does or whatever. And he goes oops never mind a little more dramatically because then he doesn't want this. I mean it can't want this but it doesn't either. So it really becomes a roller coaster of happy and unhappy. Yeah. Believing believing that it wants to be happy all the time. The worst thing that can happen to an individual is it gets everything it wants because then it can't excuse the unhappy. It starts to actually do weird and do
1:03:47 weird stuff. Are human beings born this way or is this an acquired? It it doesn't seem that Well, you were telling me about the oneyear-old basically. Yeah, but you can see the innocence there. There isn't anyone in that. It's innocence, right? Um, it seems to come at some later time. So, it might be a learned thing or something. It isn't learned.
1:04:35 It just comes. It just happens for no reason. Not but not to everyone. Well, I mean, I can't prove it, but people have called me on the phone and told me that first off, interestingly enough, that they they remember it happening, which I think is fascinating, and that some others that never happened. They never had that sense.
1:05:30 You said the sense of self is an energetic contraction throughout the body. Yeah. Does that mean that if there was suddenly no bodily sensation, there would be no sense of self? Um, I don't know what that what I mean. It's a theoretical. Well, I mean, there are substances that can, you know, remove all physical sensation, right? But who would know that there's no physical sensation? That's what I find with the substances and the people that take them. When I first started talking in England, there were a lot of people that took something called 5meo and um they they um a lot of them came and they were like, "You say exactly what it's like." And they got so
1:06:17 disillusioned so quickly because it just it just seems to me that they're repeating something they experienced. It just doesn't have any relationship to what we're talking about here. It's just another experience. But when you fall asleep at night, you lose your sense of self. Yeah. So in that respect you lose your sense of self every night when you go to sleep deep sleep
1:07:07 that energetic hole is gone. Yeah. But you don't know it. Yeah. So if somebody loses their bodily sensation um or does 5 M O DMT and then they come out of that and they can remember what it was like. I mean, could that be the same as losing the sense of self and then having it come back? Well, I couldn't tell you what it
1:07:53 was like. So, if they can tell you what it's like, it's not. Well, I think they would say they can tell you what it's like. Oh, right. Yeah. There wouldn't be anyone to come back, though. So there wouldn't there's no way there could be an individual showing up here even if the same contraction and everything happened. It wouldn't make any difference because it doesn't have any relationship to what's happening. It makes no difference if there's an individual or not. So there wouldn't be anyone to come back to say they couldn't tell you what it's like what it was like then. Do you know
1:08:39 what I mean? Are you saying that if the sense of self really dissolved, it wouldn't be able to come back? Oh, totally. Well, because it doesn't it doesn't really dissolve. There just never is an individual. But there's a sense of an individual to the individual. The sense of being an individual is one that I am in the body. I am I am separate from everything else. There is no reality to that beyond the experience of it. So from here here there isn't anyone I
1:09:26 there isn't anyone there. Do you think it's possible that a substance can allow these illusions to disappear temporarily? No. Because it isn't in the brain. The brain and discussing it as it being in the brain or in the body are a story. Liberation doesn't happen in the body. It's not a localized new experience.
1:10:14 It's the end of localized experience or the end of an experiencer. That that sounds like what it's like to be on fire. [Music] But yet the contracted energy in the body seems to subside. Yeah. Something shifts physically in the body. It it has a sense of more lightness and Yeah. Yeah. And the and the feeling the
1:11:00 literal feeling separation dissipates as well when that contracted energy does whatever it is it does. Yeah. Yeah. Which then actually makes your brain not all goes like that together. Not sure what that was, but yeah, something goes together. I don't know whether that something fits. Yeah. Well, yeah, there's a fitting and the non I don't know. I don't No, it's exactly like that. It all fits, but it isn't new in that it always it always was. Yeah, it always is. Or it's that contracted energy seems like it doesn't. Yes. Yeah.
1:11:46 And that fits too. Yes. Yes. So there's no more worry when the sun Oh, I don't know about that. Worry. Worry. Concern. Concern.
1:12:33 just less often. Well, it just doesn't happen for anyone. It's just concern. Yeah. Just there's a little worry if the deer are going to eat all the vegetables in the garden. It's a big deal. It's a lot of work. Absolutely. One evening That's all it would take. And then the raccoons. And then the tomato worms. And those are amazing, aren't they? Tomato worms. Voracious. Beautiful things. Yeah. A lot of overthinking things that you can't really define. I mean,
1:13:19 there's certain things that obviously don't happen, but there might be thinking about things. Yeah. And it's it's just what the individual can't get is it's not about what's happens because it for it it's all about what happens. What this is saying is that this doesn't happen for anyone. And that's what's lonely. The happening for someone hides the freedom that's already everything. Why not worry? And that doesn't matter. Yeah. There's probably less worrying when the future doesn't feel real like it does
1:14:06 now. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Like worrying about retirement. Yeah. Like that. Yeah. Planning happens. Yeah. That's how this body gets here. Sure. Planning.
1:14:55 I got stuck on the word overlooked when you said like we're all just this. We just overlook it. And then I got to thinking, how did I overlook it? Exactly. Like I can fix that. How can I overlook it without Oh dear. I'm looking over a fourleaf pl. I'm looking over I'm overlooking I'm overlooking
1:15:45 So when you said the part about you could be watching, you know, we were talking about HTV, let's just say Netflix. You're watching Netflix. Yeah. With seeking or you're not. And so, but if I'm no one's here, how can I know which one I'm doing? I can't know. I mean, um, in a sense, there isn't a knowing of it, but it is obvious. The individual will there's a sense of need in everything. A sense of need like I this this one thinks it's going to get something that will help it have a better experience if it for a better experience. Uhhuh. I mean fundamentally
1:16:33 there's very little about this conversation that the individual can recognize. It doesn't know what it is. Okay? It doesn't know what the contracted energy feels like. It doesn't know how it affects its body. It doesn't know what it means that there isn't anyone. It doesn't know what nothing is. So, there's very little that it can really grasp. And in the end, really, what's being shared is nothing. There isn't actually a message. It's kind of a brick wall. Is that all that I can offer? [Music]
1:17:29 That's the beauty of it though. Yeah, it is. It's just nothing. It's full stop. Nothing. That's it. Amazing. Can you talk about um the phrase falling away? Yeah. Like, well, it's a story in the same way that uses 5 MO in England. Yeah. And not here. Um, I didn't get that. In the same way that the person using cyto your England trip or somewhere in Europe, they're telling you the same story as they sensed a falling away with
1:18:15 substance. Who extends the falling away, right? How how did Jim see a falling away? Yeah, it didn't. It doesn't. Then how then you can't talk about it falling away. You just try and talk about what this is as best as we can. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I can't talk about it. I think I've said that. I thought you were talking. I think I've said the end of something that never happened. Yeah. Yeah. Which is about the best you can do, which isn't something that happens. It's a sort of a it's sort of the two realities collide. the experience of the individual that this is really happening. And so the idea that if this
1:19:02 were going to stop really happening, as Jim's talking about, that would be something that really happens. And where this is coming from that it isn't already really happening. Is that like what some would call the relative versus the absolute? Well, and for the individual that makes sense. And what I'm saying is that the relative and the absolute are the same already and and the loss of the sense of self isn't something that happens. Um but but it happens in the same sense that anything else see seems to happen like
1:19:49 in the way that I not really getting dressed earlier today like in the way that that happened. No, but there was an apparent getting dressed the individual never is. Mhm. There never is separation. There's the illusion of it. There is. And so the and apparent effects, right, of illusions like churches Mhm. And so the meditation groups and so the and so the uh the the apparent falling away at that illusion happens only in the same way that my getting dressed this morning happened. No, it's less delusy. It's less real than that. No,
1:20:34 the getting the dress there's a I make a differentiation between what appears to happen which has a reality which is insubstantial. So it's an insubstantial reality. It's nothing appearing to happen. The individual actually never happens right? But the illusion of it happens apparently. Apparently. Yeah. And then the falling away of that illusion can apparently happen. But it never But that's the difference. It never happened. Mhm. It doesn't have any reality to it. The only reality has it has is to itself. And when that reality to itself isn't isn't there, it never had any real it has no reality outside of that. Mhm.
1:21:24 So even so even the illusion of the sense of self is less real than the clothes I'm wearing. Absolutely. Yet it seems so real to itself. Yeah. Yet it doesn't even apparently happen. Well, it does apparently happen. It's an illusion. An apparent illusion. Yeah.
1:22:16 So, could the sense of self seem more real because of the contraction in the body? Well, if there weren't a contraction, there wouldn't be a sense of self. So, we're back to the energy of the contraction of the body. Yeah. It's not a contraction like that we're aware of when we're contracted. It's something deeper than that. Well, it it is awareness or consciousness. Consciousness. It's the same energy.
1:23:10 So when you said about um there being an awareness of just bodies in the room that includes that body but no differentiation as oh I mean that this obvious in one some way knows that it's not that body. Or we might run into each other, right? Ape walks through doors pretty efficiently, eats food very effectively. There's just no cells there. There just It's just no one. No one. And it's already that way. Yeah, I overlooked it.
1:24:02 Oh, already self you saw the steps or whatever like how it was created then like the thing I I guess I'll never understand but I keep wanting to understand is like out here and contracted energy and all that turns into a need like that personalization. Oh, it's that ownership. It's the sense of having something which is here here and having something is the is the beginning of it. But the sense that I am doing I'm
1:24:49 speaking right now that comes after. Yeah. How does that even happen? What is that connection between one and the other? Because I hear well here is a position. Yeah, that I get and out of the position there's an owner a knower of that position. I like that stuff. It just doesn't like I feel like I maybe I'm just ignoring but I just can't quite grasp you don't understand it like that just there's no connection one and the other. Yeah. Oh, they're the same. And and I guess the question the individual would then ask which isn't helpful is how do I know I'm here
1:25:40 which isn't helpful [Music] Because there's a mirror behind you. How about that? Yeah. Wow. It's all symbolic. You say the question, "How do I know I'm here?" isn't helpful because it assumes that there's an eye. Well, if there's a question, all questions, no questions are helpful for a couple of reasons, but fundamentally the questioner is an illusion. So, the whole impetus to ask the question comes out out of an an unreal reality that there's needs to be an answer
1:26:26 that there's a real question to this. There'd have to be something separate to help. So if the emotion of sadness came about, yeah, there's nothing to push it away. No. Well, why? It's just sadness. The individual is threatened by emotions. and tries to control.
1:27:13 It just does. It's like why not worry? Why not be sad? It just doesn't matter. Sad angry disappointed. Why not be? So really the best we can do when we're I know I'm hilarious. I should really be a stand up meeting. [Music] [Laughter]
1:28:03 The best we can do is what? I don't know if you want to hear that. Right. So, so sitting sitting here listening to this and no the feeling of okay this is some kind of well that comes from the idea that there's free will there that there's someone there that chose to come here and coming here was real. There's a real here and there's either hearing something or not hearing something and that has value. And none of that none of that is true. Okay. Yeah, we're Yeah, it's being talked about and well, there's talking happening. Yes, talking happening. And there's all this these feelings happening of like, oh, something said,
1:28:50 "Oh, okay. Understood." Yeah, that's quite that's the best we can do that it's not helping. Thank you. Yeah. Well, even even the question answers I seriously you don't want this, right? Yeah. If you had a choice, first off, if you knew what we were talking about, you never would have come. But if you had a choice to choose not existing or existing, you would choose to exist. Right. Right. Okay. But unbeknownst to you, there is, and sorry about this, it's a bit woo, but there's something else going on, which isn't about it isn't it isn't necessarily the conversation, right? And
1:29:38 if there's an openness, there's a there's can be a real joy just hearing this or just being here or whatever. But it isn't about getting anywhere or the best anyone can do because there isn't anyone to choose. Yeah. Nope. It literally has nothing to do with you. There isn't a you to have for it to do have anything to do with. You said that you would always choose to
1:30:25 exist rather than not exist. You in quotes. Uh what if someone's deeply suicidal? Still looking for a better experience. Could you say that again? that still doesn't It's looking for better. It's looking for. So even they wouldn't want this? No, you you it's just unwantable for in all of its variations. First off, it's unwantable because it's not separate.
1:31:11 You can only want something separate. It's already it's the same there as it is here. There's no difference. It's same there and there and there and there. It's all nothing. It's all fulfillment appearing to happen. It's done. Second, it's the end of it's it the individual is let's say programmed. It's not really programmed, but it wants to survive. Unknowing is its nemesis and the end of existence is something it can't know. The end of its existence is something it can't know. So it can't want the end of itself. Can't conceive of it. So anyway you look at it is just not wantable. But there might be at the same
1:31:56 time uh like an inward yes or an openness or something to yeah what can't be known. Maybe when the longing is stronger than the wanting, then I don't know that it has to be like that. It for me it's more of an openness. There's an openness to something beyond getting, beyond knowing. Everybody here, wrong word, knows what we're talking about. It truly is more obvious than the experience of being separated.
1:32:51 There's just nothing in it for the individual that's convinced that it's its solution. It's, you know, it's fulfillment is hidden in enough getting and there's nothing in it for what we're talking about. There's nothing in it for the individual. So, it's overlooked. There it is again. Thank you. Did I have to sing that song again? Just happened. Love it.
1:33:38 Way too much fun. Can't sort of see myself just rolling around on the It's laughing. I can see that. Why not?
1:34:31 Brings us here. Oh, you're not here anyone here. Okay. [Laughter] I could
