0:06 I have to be ready the whole morning. I'm just focusing on this [Laughter] moment as you were walking around the park getting the introduction together. Exactly. All right. Are we recording? Yes. Yeah. Cool.
0:57 Okay. Hello. Hello. Welcome. And uh sorry I have to welcome [Music] uh my well prayer prepared introduction is I'm sleeping away in the motel. have to come up with something new and fresh. Yeah. So that's it. Whole complete. This is all there
1:44 is. There is no one and nothing separate from what happens. There isn't what happens and me. That would be the dream that there is something or someone separate who has an an or an own reality. I am basically um that's the only dream. It's the only illusion that there really is someone who is separate. Um everything else is the natural reality. Everything else just is what seems to be happening. And of course one could say also this illusion to be someone is the natural reality but exactly as what it is an illusion. I
2:29 don't say that the me also is the natural reality. No there is no one. So if at all one could say it's the illusion to be someone. That's also just what seems to be happening. So to even talk about an illusion is kind of doesn't really catch it because it still sounds as if there is an illusion and there isn't. There's just what seems to be happening and it's this. It feels like this. It looks like this. That's what it feels. That's what it thinks. That means not in a certain way.
3:14 wholeness. This being whole and complete is not a feeling. It's not an experience. There's just only exactly what seems to be happening to no one. That's all there is. As uh this whole seeking dynamic belongs to this illusion, this can't be a teaching. What happens? What seems to be happening doesn't try to teach anyone. It just is. Everything just is. Trees, forests cities thoughts feelings, they don't want to teach anyone. They don't happen for someone.
4:00 So this meeting also naturally isn't a teaching. There is nothing here for the seeker to take home with actually like everywhere. It's part of the dream that one can learn something from people talking or from what seems to be happening in the end. Um but the dream I am someone I've lost something and somehow I have to learn how to become fulfilled and somehow the world has to tell me or support me at least in my
4:46 learning. Um, no, there isn't anyone. There is no one who's unfulfilled and there's no one who has to become fulfilled and there is no one who will become fulfilled. So that's the dream. It's the only dream. This is whole and complete in its own incomprehensible way. It doesn't have anything to do with pleasant or unpleasant or good or bad. That's not the point. So there is no one. And we can talk about
5:33 this. And maybe we can expose this illusion as what it is, an illusion. And this would be wholly incomplete. But it will not bring about more holiness. It can't. It doesn't have to. That's why it's also very easygoing this afternoon. It doesn't have to become something else. Andreas, I asked you like some years ago on Zoom, is it possible for there to be obsessions when there is not a person? and you said no because
6:19 there's nothing to obsess about because there isn't anything. Nice. Yeah, that's good answer. Yeah, obviously like I've been diagnosed by psychiatrist with an obsessive personality disorder. And I was just thinking obsessions it's just a way of confirming reality in a very strong way if you know what I mean. Like you said you can't obsess if there isn't something to obsess over but obsessing it makes something real. Mhm. It's a very focused Sorry. Yeah. I mean, if if this apparent illusion would collapse here, Yeah. those obsessions might still go on. Oh, they don't in glimpses, but they just at least I just Okay. At least they wouldn't be fed. Okay. No, I can say from glimpses.
7:06 There's no obsessing. So, yeah. Over situations or a thing or any of that. It's just it just doesn't happen. But I was just thinking in terms of like say if I obsess over how great something is to Oh you mean inside is thinking about oh no this would draw I just thought you meant kind of behavior you know excessive oh yeah of course oh this inside dynamic oh this would collapse oh totally of course this inside digging in stories and more and more that's exactly what would coll totally that would collapse instantly. Yeah, but what I was going to say was when I'm obsessing over something either because it's so great or so awful, say that I've had a good meeting. Yeah, that would and and I'm going away to the hotel or some restaurant, whatever, I'm thinking, "Oh, golly, it's amazing. I can't wait for
7:52 tomorrow's meeting. This is, you know, whatever." It just makes something really real or I'm obsessing about how bad something is, when is it going to end this problem, just makes it even it just solidifies a reality. Yeah, it comes out of something solid and confirms it at least. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that would coll. You know, I just thought you meant like checking three times if you've forgotten your key or something. That's what I Okay, this might go on. But of course, this inner dialogue, this inner Yeah. I mean, it it's an intense inner dialogue actually. This obsessing about something. Yeah. That would collapse. Yeah. Yeah.
8:40 What are you thinking about? No, it's just funny how we thought of something else, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's just intensified, but actually every Mi is doing that. Yeah. Well, every mi is living in its story as meaningful and significant and somehow it has to keep it up and it's seeking truth in it and has to invent a new story that's more suitable and all those things and it's like focusing on how great something is and it wants more or how bad it is and it needs to that. Yeah. And and I mean most people are just obsessing in that sense about daily
9:25 life how to make more money or how to get this and how to make this work or so it doesn't have to be for many people the spiritual thing or around the seeking. It's just how to make daily life work or to be successful in daily life. But it's the same thing. Yeah. It's also obsessing about oneself and one story. And Tony calls it the CD. So, a thought goes round and round like a CD. So, she doesn't love me. What am I having for breakfast? Am I running out of money? She doesn't love me. He calls it the CG. It just goes round and round and around. Exactly. And right in the center isn't a hole. It's the me. Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of a hole actually.
10:12 But yeah, it's part basically it's constantly shouting me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me. It's just a way of it's just an inner working on one's life. The outer working on one's life and that's that's the inner working on it, keeping up an issue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually the same thing that we talked about yesterday that the MI itself, you know, while we talks a lot about the MI here and I said the Mi brings itself on the table all the time. That's what exactly is happening there just to itself. It's constantly bringing it on the table. Me, my life, that's what it's about.
11:01 I mean, that's its experience. I'm already there anyway. It can't look before that. It's I'm that's a set reality from the person. I'm here. That's the basis for everything and me and my life. Yeah. It's amazing how Okay. Yes. We've said like that will drop without a me and that's fine, but the meat does expect some dramatic diff. We expect a difference when it's not there to be dramatic. But when the Mi is not there, it's not dramatically different. I mean, that's a surprise in the end that the me never is or was as real uh to make a real difference. Yeah, it feels real and huge when it's there. My life as if it's
11:48 the most important thing in the world. And when it collapses, it doesn't make a huge difference because it never was that. It never was real. It never was important. It never played a big role. Yeah. And all the things to me found uncomfortable if they carry on doesn't matter. Yeah. Oh yeah. Exactly. Yes. It just really thinks the answer is changing things. Yeah. Changing what it experiences. Changing its experience. Well, in the end, it's all about this one change from me being unfulfilled to
12:33 me being fulfilled. And of course, changing the circumstances, they just represent that idea. You know, if I would have more money, I would be more fulfilled. Yeah. But in the end, it's only about this one change. But it really thinks that's going to bring it about, though. Exactly. That would be the method. Yeah. Better health, better relationships, more money, whatever. Exactly. It just doesn't ever make any difference. It doesn't make any difference. Exactly. I mean, none of that already doesn't make a difference. That's why the seeking goes on. No matter which changes happen, the
13:20 seeking itself just goes on because it doesn't make a difference. which the person can't see is actually a great source of freedom because nothing makes a difference. So in that sense you can do anything you want but for the person that's something negative nothing makes a difference whatever I do nothing changes something yeah great you're free but yeah And yeah, that's the one side. People
14:05 try to change their outside circumstances to feel good. And in spirituality, they try to change the the inside circumstances. So it's not about how do I uh get a third portion. It's about how am I able to be grateful for the two that I have.
14:56 So when there's is uh falling away then there is also not anymore the question is this good is this good enough yes yeah one could say so doesn't come up anymore yeah practical yeah of course yeah I mean when I say stuff like that it always refers to this personal energy only is this good enough for me does this does this make me happy and fulfilled fil or not. It's quite exhausting system in a way. Yeah. It's just constant working. Yeah.
15:45 And I think most people don't really know how exhausting it is until they had some kind of a break from it. Before that, it just feels normal. Did was there also in some moments of awakening with you before falling away? Did you hit that also? Like uh there was Yeah, I had Yeah, I had three of them. Yeah. or three that I then was also this kind of difference then in a way experienced
16:31 like suddenly it was again contraction. Yes. Yeah. But I I just had a completely different story to it at least at the beginning. But for me the contraction didn't feel bad when I came back. I didn't notice it. There was rather joy in terms of, wow, that's how it is. I had a glimpse. I saw it. That's the truth. Great. And I only softly sneaked into seeking again. So there was no story about, oh, I'm back again. It was like, great, I'm back again. And I even had a glimpse.
17:25 It's not always that easy for the rest of us. No, the the suffering just came later again. Don't say that it wasn't there. Good old suffering. [Music] Yeah. I mean the bigger the distance to the glimpse was the more was of course oh it's lost itself I'll never go there
18:13 so it's not really different just time wise a bit relative
19:18 So, it's impossible for you now to feel unloved or could you feel unloved? Yes and no. I mean, there's just no one there. But, uh, if I enter a room where everyone hates me, there might be feelings of they don't of being unloved. We've tried our best. Not welcome. We tried our best. you feel loved. To be honest, I don't have it very often to enter a room where everyone because the reason I asked that, but it would be more practical. That would that's what I would regard as practical. It would just be a reaction to but the reason why I
20:05 asked because obviously on the one hand we talked about it when we were driving into more. Well, you were driving. I was talking, but we were going to Moore in your car and I said, you were talking about babies, how if they don't have touch, they die. Well, I'm not sure if that's true, but you said it was in an experiment, but they did. It's I've read about it. Also, animals at the beginning of sometimes a cat or a dog will come to get love and the owner could be busy doing something, they don't have time to stroke it. I mean it probably doesn't suffer like existentially like oh I'm un loved and stuff. Yeah. I just mean this personal dynamic this this basic feeling of I've been kicked out of paradise. That's it. Some
20:51 as if I'm not worthy or it's a bit deeper than just feeling [Music] unloved. And yeah of course this collapses. Yes. Two different things. Exactly. Yeah. It's somehow different than just a feeling. It's somehow deeper. This me energy in that sense. So there could be all kinds of feelings here, but it just isn't underlaid with this basic feeling of something is wrong and I'm wrong because I can't make it good. Yeah. And then we seek security and people loving it as well. It makes me feel more
21:37 secure to think more people love it. For example, Yeah. for example. Or one person loves you that will never leave you or any of those ideas. Yeah. But I think and I think that's kind of interesting. this this feeling of unworthiness that the person carries around hasn't been replaced with the feeling of I am worthy. So I'm not walking around now with this impression. But even people who do that in the dream have to keep it up. It's not it never just feel and me can just feel fully worthy and they don't have to think about it again. There'll be times when they have to think about it. That's what I mean. It's the
22:24 collapse isn't replaced by this experience of I'm worthy. It just doesn't make sense anymore. You don't need to become it or there's no one there to become worthy or unworthy. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And the other thing with a person is as well, like I'm talking about myself, just to be honest, seeking reassurance. And a lot of like wanting to be loved by others is about reassurance. Yes. You're okay. You're good. You're doing it right. You didn't do it wrong. Yeah. You're not bad. You're not bad. Yeah. It
23:10 wasn't your fault. You're innocent. I've never heard that. I've never [Laughter] All right. Good. There's no need for reassurance, I suppose. And there's no one because that's true. What do you need to be reassured of? Yeah. That things are good. Like you said, there's nothing that needs to be good. So, yeah. Yeah. Again, it's about this inner dynamic, this me which wants to feel safe and right and worthy and struggles with all those things, you know, guilt and yeah, this basic sense of unworthiness and it's constantly trying
23:56 to find an answer for them and it's way to find an answer to that is thinking in terms of the opposite. Not feeling unworthy means I have to feel worthy to not feel guilty. I have to know that it wasn't my fault. And that's all just within stories because the one thing is a story already. Being unworthy to be guilty and to not feel rejected I have to be loved would be my thing. Yeah. Well maybe lots of others too. I don't know. Yeah. And I mean a person starts off with having this feeling of rejection. I'm
24:41 I'm rejected from holiness or paradise anyway. So I somehow have to come to a feeling that I'm loved that I'm whole and complete. Yeah. Yeah. [Music] Yeah. That's when I say you will never become fulfilled. That's actually just the second step. There is no one who is unfulfilled. That's a dream. There is no one who is unworthy. But this doesn't need the realization that I am worthy as an answer. It's just the very notion of I'm here and this isn't it. That doesn't
25:27 have any reality. So surprising because the person is constantly looking for this answer to replace this with something better. And in a way, not that there's anyone who can do that, but it's just enough that this is illusurary. It wasn't real in the first place and it doesn't need any answer any inside answer so to speak. Ah now I see that I'm good. Now I see that I'm whole and complete. Or in non-dual circles it would be now I see that I'm no
26:14 one. No. So, so, so in the end it's just only an emotion which says I'm not good enough and it's hollow. Yeah. Yeah. I would say it's somehow deeper because it's not kind of an emotion like happiness or joy but it might trigger an emotion. It might bring about this emotion but it's somehow more energetic. It's not really clear in a way, but in the end it's not really clear because it's an illusion anyway. You would never be able to really find it. Yeah. It's just this set assumption. It's not even
27:00 something that the person has to think about. It just is like that somehow for the person or maybe just energy. Yeah. Yeah. But you're right. One can never really ah that's that's the problem that's the [Laughter] main though it sounds as if we are doing that here. Yeah. Yeah. In a way we do but just in order to find out that there isn't anything and not that there is something which it's already not there.
27:50 So person is searching for someone who knows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It hopes that I'm someone who knows and that itself can become someone who knows who has found the answer who has somehow managed to replace the seeking eye with uh having found I can be everyone the boss of the work or does not matter. Exactly. Yeah. or a concept. It doesn't even have to be a person. The right narrative about
28:38 life. Would you say that when people think they're spiritually enlightened or whatever the term is enlightened, they have to start talking because it just they need to constantly confirm their position as having found. I don't know if they No. I'm just imagining if somebody thought they're enlightened, they have to talk to anyone about it and they just felt I'm enlightened. Would that be enough to keep it going? Well, usually they have friends. So, well, they don't have to become Yeah. Yeah. So, but it's almost like whenever me's found that because you were saying me wants to become someone who's found obviously that position has to be confirmed over and over again. H I there is no real answer to that
29:23 because in a way the Mi confirms its position to itself constantly anyway. Yeah. And if it needs other people to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't matter. Maybe for some maybe for some people it's easier to keep this illusion up when they don't meet other people and are forced to experience themselves as normal human beings in between. Well, I just thinking with you obviously you saw Tony you apparently died or the illusion apparently no longer happens. you started talking. If you didn't talk or or were involved with this, you wouldn't have any reflection on the fact you
30:08 weren't there. Yes. I mean, I would probably somehow live in that story. Not in my head in that story, but having met Tony, this this whole thing being part of my story, I wouldn't probably be able to completely forget about that, right? But yeah, there wouldn't be any talking about it or keeping it up to myself, which I actually have been uh accused of recently. That's what some people think and I think in a personal context that's what's happening a lot to keep this state up by constantly talking about it. People think that's what you're doing while you're a speaker. Because then because I'm speaking so much, they think
30:55 that's my method to keep myself in this narrative. These aren't people who have met you though, are they? That's true. They haven't met you for long enough. No, they haven't met you. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a common method for the person. So, it's also quite understandable that they can project this into this. Yeah. Yeah. that I think that there is no one because I constantly talk about it and talk myself into a special state or Yeah. Yeah. Although it's not that's not what you're saying at all. It's completely normal and there is no that's not what I'm saying at all. It's absolutely not how it is and I can imagine very good to
31:43 live without having these talks in my life. Maybe I would miss them a bit, but I wouldn't it, you know, it wouldn't Yeah, I wouldn't just start suddenly becoming someone again or something. How do you compare the moments uh during the day when they're when I'm not busy with the me? I'm just doing things and driving in the car and it's not me. Mhm. And and falling away. Well, you never know. Maybe there's just
32:28 no one there. But of course also in the personal experience I mean the person seems to take breaks to itself a bit more conscious breaks would be I don't know a meditation or something I mean the me can kind of say to itself okay now for an hour I just let go I don't think about anything and maybe this can also happen while driving a car or just it can't be in this constantly. Mhm. I think there are just also natural breaks where it's just but in the end you don't know was there someone or
33:16 not never really [Music] anymore. And what is uh because sometimes you say or sometime it can resonate this message you mean? Yeah. Yeah. To let it resonate to come here. I I would put it the other way round. You are here because there is a resonance. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. But but um um I I know the word we have in touch. Um but what is it for you? What what what happens when it resonates?
34:04 Uh well, the resonance is just a very superficial um description of what makes you sit here and not run away. And in the end, well, in the story, one could say what it does to me is just joy. Mhm. So, I'm just happy for everyone who comes through this door and sits here. And this happiness has nothing to do with oh great one more person paying or uh great I'm someone else who follows me. Well that's that's maybe added but that's maybe added to it
34:51 then but uh yeah it's basically surprisingly just joyfree. Yeah. But I don't feel the resonance in itself, you know. I don't say, "Oh, there's this wonderful resonance." No, it's that's what I mean. It's just a superficial description of you coming here, there being an openness, and suddenly there is a joy here. And yes,
35:40 It's also hard to say why for me I can hardly say why I exactly have a story. Yeah. So say like the [ __ ] was sort of likewise people or and something is recognizing. Yeah. Yeah. That's why it's not actually an answer. No. Yeah. Exactly. No. No. Sometimes tell myself why should I go anyway? You can't no that's why also this resonance thing you can't there isn't a real resonance where where you can consciously say oh I feel that resonance and that's why I'm
36:26 going there. No, it's it's all of it just is what happens in the end for no real reason or explanation. It just apparently is like that. You for no real reason coming and enjoying it kind of enjoying it. Yeah. Yeah. M but you can't say why really weird because I had this this week I thought there's more we than ever so this story well this story can happen
37:15 in yourself can just and then it isn't and then it isn't And in destroy his meetings, I'm more me than ever. Those meetings didn't end at all. [ __ ] No, no, it's more like Yeah. Yeah. This itself is more like an energy. It's not actually never was you could say or isn't it seems to happen full on. Yeah, full on. But maybe that's what you mean.
38:00 It never runs the show. No, it it just is another thing that seems to be happening, but actually it has already no power on its own. No, I sometimes I say it has no ground to stand on. Exactly. And also this dynamic like I'm me should I go? This also doesn't stand on any ground. No, it's not in the end why you do or don't do things. It's just another thing that seems to be happening. that's also groundless or that's just a way of trying to express but
38:57 yeah every minute of the whole thing that's always it's a it's a it's a bigger loveliness That's Yeah.
39:44 So nothing is needed. Yes. In terms of uh to make this more decided this is but I feel so small. Help me
40:35 father. There is no one son. That actually helps. Which part? I don't know. There's no reply anymore. Yeah. It's funny if I say those things out
41:20 loud and it's directly I don't know can't grasp it anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. While saying it doesn't have any reality and you know the things that we can think or at least I sometimes think because I feel unfulfilled now and this isn't it. So something was wrong in the past. If the past would have been different, I'd be happy now. It wouldn't make any difference. Like there's no real past that brought this about for a start. And so the whole story I tell myself about what was wrong or right in the past. Didn't do anything to affect what's happening now. You were
42:06 only apparently. It doesn't matter. It never affected you being fulfilled or unfulfilled. Yeah, that's what I mean. You said I didn't quite say it correctly. Yeah. Well, we'll just leave it with what you said. Probably why I exist. Because whatever condition this body has because of apparent uh the past, it it won't make any difference. Yeah. Being this way or another way or Well, even the idea that it could be another way is just an an invention. Yeah. Yeah. a theory anyway because it only just is as it is. Yeah. So, one can constantly obsess about what could have been, what would have been if and
42:53 if and someone I might look at and feel jealous of because I think they've got what I want, they're jealous of someone else that's got what they want. So, yeah, maybe. Yeah. No, it does happen. So, he's never ever truly satisfied fully. No, never. Exactly. It can be satisfied a bit here and there, but it Yeah. Only apparently. Yeah. Because it never is about dissatisfaction and satisfaction. No, no, no, no. I know. But I'm just saying like when like when I'm feeling really satisfied about things, it distracts myself from the fact I'm a me. No, it doesn't distract yourself from the fact that you are me. It's just a full on me experience. Feeling good. I'm satisfied now. It's good. Great. I'm happy now. Yeah, it's
43:41 just the same thing. But I'm I'm curious. Why did you think that feeling satisfied distracted you from being a me? Because it almost sounded as if you should remember that you are a me. No, because it's like I know how dissatisfied I can feel as a me. I'll just say it. So, well, you don't have to keep this in mind. No, no. So, sometimes I feel very dissatisfied as a me. I'm sitting at the table of the restaurant still feeling dissatisfied as a me. As soon as they put the food on the table, I forget I'm a me that's seeking. Mhm. But there's nothing wrong.
44:29 That's what I mean. There's nothing wrong about And as I'm eating the food, I'm not focused on the fact that I'm me who needs a solution. I'm eating the food and loving it and satisfied. And then when that's finished, I order more and more. I go back to hotel and eat more. And then the next day I wake up. The next morning I wake up feeling uncomfortable, remembering there's a problem and I need to do something about it. So what I'm saying is when me feels really satisfied, it distracts you from the sense that you should be working on a problem. I know that is because I'm working on a problem. Yeah. I just had the subtle impression that you think it's good to remember that you are a me which is seeking but of course you don't you'll forget that. Yeah. No, it's just how it sounded subtly as
45:16 if it's good to know that one is seeking and suffering. Yeah, I probably do think I need to hold on to that. What was like you said to me thinks any moment without seeking is a wasted moment. Yeah. Well, in that sense, either without enjoying or without seeking, but they are the same. For me, they are kind of the same. Yeah. Because enjoying and getting is still part of seeking. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. But when it's enjoying and getting, you have to be consciously aware that it's enjoying and getting. Yeah. Yeah. But for for me, it's an existential knowledge. I am and I'm still on a path. Thank God. Thank God I'm still on a path.
46:01 Well, even when it's really enjoying and distracted from its seeking, it still knows it won't last. It knows it won't last. Well, it's just part of seeking because it's exactly within the same narrative right? You know, it's within the same way of thinking, within the same value system, within knowing it's it's just the same thing as seeking because this sense of satisfaction was only brought by by what it was looking for. So, it's still the same narrative.
47:22 So it's me as the feeling to go through time. It's also the me goes through time. It's also bounded bounded by it goes to time. It comes from somewhere through time. Yeah. Through time. Yeah. Through time. It comes from somewhere and it goes to somewhere. Yes. It's it's it's also bounded by that. Yeah. I mean at the same time. Yeah. I mean the assumption that everything is an experience that is the limitation actually. Yeah. It makes everything an experience. Exactly. And that this implies time and
48:08 moving through time. Yeah. There also that this feeling there was real something going on in the past that also know there wasn't a bunch of experiences. Exactly. Yeah. That's what created the the past so to speak. But there seem to have be so many moments where I was there experiencing them past, present, future.
48:57 So this in the Buddhistic saying uh past, present and future will return to the great reality. But reality is nothing. Nothing. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But they bring it as a thing something to Yeah. It's quite possible that it was meant like this. But of course then the seeker makes a a teaching out of it and a misunderstanding. Well, usually the assumption is that you have to come to one experience that transcends all the others, so to
49:43 speak. But of course, it it is the same thing. The illusion of time collapses into nothing. There's no such thing as dying. Yes. It was to say all experience is the same as nothing. Yes. Well, the only thing that would say that there is something is the experience.
50:36 that we it's just only the me living in this confirmation, this energetic inner confirmation saying, "Yeah, but there is something." Yeah, there must be some kind of existence. Something is real. Nothing else does do them except this sense of me. But only telling only to itself. Absolutely. You can't grasp even the meaning of it. Yeah. It's only self-referential telling
51:23 it to Absolutely. Keeping of the story, continuing a continuing story. Yeah. By Yes. By somehow experiencing it. Yeah. That's the thing. The Yeah. I don't only I don't mean only words. So Yeah. Exactly. More than words. Yeah. Exactly. It's more than words. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because in a way it is that sense of existence. That's why it feels so true and real because it just feels as yeah there is something. This is so Yeah. But then no one can describe that
52:09 something that something that's true. Already sort of stops. It already stops them, doesn't spiritual teachings even would say you can't know what presence or awareness is. You can just be it. But yeah, it's Yeah, but they don't tell you how to do that. But then you can't tell because yeah I just mean the me can't even understand that it can't really understand itself. So can even go that far. Yeah. Yeah. And that's I I know I know for
52:54 myself that that there can be then a very subtle grasping of nothing. Yeah, that there's still some as if it is something. Well, the grasping itself would experience itself as being something already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't say that this is wrong or that it has to go away, but it's illusurary. And yeah, how would reality be without this grasping? Without anyone saying, "But there is
53:40 something automatically nothing.
54:29 What do you mean when you say sense of isusion? What do you mean by illusion? It's very difficult to Yeah. What I mean is that there is no eye in that body. It's not there. There isn't anything. I see sometimes people write in books like this is apparently happening. Yes. The only thing that you can reference to is that this whole thing apparently happening. Doesn't that create a degree of more more reality than the me to this thing that is apparently happening or they all the same me also apparently happening
55:16 this thing is also yeah but I would say the illusion of me is what what what apparently happening but that's a difficult one and it doesn't make make sense what I mean for example you sitting here this sitting here saying But I'm a me and somehow having this experience, this is what seems to be happening and this is real and unreal. That's the natural reality. However, there is never a me, a separate me in that body. There is also never a separate me
56:02 illusion in that body. And that's what seems to be so contradictory in the personal experience. How you can be sitting there or anyone can be sitting there saying I'm me. I do even feel it without there ever be such a thing. Neither a meme nor an illusion. Yeah. Let me go one step further. But I do feel is that I actually don't have a lot of trouble by saying this sense of me is
56:47 not there or there. And perhaps that's what they mean that suffering reduces or goes away because you might feel pain. You might feel even feelings of something changing in the body like I am feeling for example humiliated these things goes a little bit away I think or at least yes the chatter goes away however it might be that yeah you see a car coming to your own car and your heart starts beating so that's we can say that's apparently happening yes so my question not is not even concerned about this me that much You know it's a little bit like the things that we say apparently happening like this sitting. Yeah. Not that I want to answer but I
57:34 like to hear. Yeah. Yeah. So what because I hear a lot that also in your book street like this apparently happening. Yes. I like this sentence but and it's not that I don't I want to make sense of it but I want to hear you talking a little bit about it because you're saying this apparently is happening. Yes. Where is this sense of apparently is coming from? Why do we say apparently it's happening? Like forget about me, f me. Because the me is a bit goes out of the actually in a sense. Oh, I just wanted to say something. Okay. Well, the thing is Well, the thing is that apparently isn't something that's coming in as an additional aspect. Okay. Actually, it's that's the feeling of reality that's
58:21 drained. This being real and unreal is natural. It's not that real is the starting point and then a mysterious unreal is added or a mysterious apparently is added. Actually, it's more that the reality is taken out and what's left is this being ungraspable, this being incomprehensible. It's more like this. It's It's funny. It doesn't make sense. I have to add a word. Yeah. Okay. in order to describe something that's actually less than what the person
59:10 experiences ungraspability is left some yes but for the person for the person this would still leave some kind of fragrance of something unraspability there's nothing left clearly but yes it's ungraspable and even when I say that a person would say yeah it is ungraspable now there's no grasping of any
1:00:06 And in that sense, there isn't anything more real or unreal than anything else. One could say all there is is the natural reality. All there is is what seems to be happening and there never is a me. That's not even saying it's less real. It it just never existed. It's also not denying it. It never came into reality in the first place. I'm not saying this to make something go away that's already there. Or that's how the me would hear it. A denial. You deny my existence. Well, I I
1:00:53 can't. I don't have to. There is no one. Could you say that denying something is confirming its existence? Absolutely. All right. It would at least come from a position of reality. Yeah. It would confirm reality and a position. All right. And say this does not exist. Yeah. Say you do not exist. Yeah.
1:01:43 Yeah. But yeah, for for the person here, in order to deny something, it it must actually be there at first. So you are saying everything is natural. Yeah. Yeah. Everything that seems to be happening can't be prevented from happening. So it's happening naturally. But there are no natural laws. No. Well, but the appearance of natural
1:02:30 laws happens naturally. That's what seems to be happening. Yeah. effortlessly naturally. Yeah. In a way, it's too simple then. Yeah, that's very simple. Yeah. Yes. There is absolutely no effort needed for this appearance of a room in Amsterdam and all of us sitting in it.
1:03:16 No one was able to prevent it. No one. Yeah. It's just what seems to be happening. Yeah. But can I still be wishes? Wishes. Yes. What would you wish for? Not really. Not really. Only apparently. Yeah. So, it really doesn't matter what's apparently happening. Yes, it really doesn't matter. Yeah.
1:04:02 Yeah. A week ago or so, I had a small glimpse kind of understanding of that that um about when they call call it immediacy that there's uh that there's no um projecting out there only this or so. But then uh well in a way then then I'm already giving it a localization maybe. Yeah. I don't know. It depends. I mean it's possible that in the personal experience this whole what usually happens that the attention goes outside
1:04:49 can just completely fall back onto itself. Yeah. Okay. Then this would be an immediate total presence, but it would be an experience still. But maybe there was just also no one there and you just don't have words for it. Yeah. No, I cannot say that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know either. Yeah. Yeah. But there is no distance. Yeah. That's
1:05:38 what you're saying. Exactly. Yeah. But then Well, that that seemed to be clear at that moment. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. Maybe there was just no one there and and everything was just total and full on and everything just was what it was. Yeah. But then you're giving it you're making it already bigger than it was. It was just Yeah. It's not something. No, it's not something. No. No. Not at all. It's not a big thing. [Music] No. No. And maybe compared to this to the I
1:06:23 mean that's kind of what you said also. I mean compared to live in these stories about the world and this big space and the things that all seem to exist, they all collapse. [Music] I think usually the person lives in an impression of there being something big out there, an existence, not maybe not even as a conscious thing, just as a feeling. What I see basically that like everything and then and that and then then came here. [Music]
1:07:11 At least it knows what happened. Apparently in a way or not in a way also feel like I have to protect something. This is also kind of a me energy. Yeah. Yourself. You have to protect yourself. Yeah. Also right now like something can be destroyed or something. Yeah. You could be destroyed. Dark. Yeah. No. But you want to survive this meeting. Yeah. Yeah. To drive happily
1:07:59 home in the evening and then go to a next week and have a next week and maybe have a next meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's all right. There's nothing wrong with it. But yeah, but it's strange. But something can be destroyed. Yeah, it's exactly. That's the funny thing about it that this thing isn't really real, but that's how it can feel. But yeah, there is nothing to be destroyed. There is no one. There can just be driving home and
1:08:46 having a next week and having a next meeting for no one. That's not the point. So, next week or whatever. But yeah, just this energy It's very subtile. Yeah, it's kind of subtle but also kind of pretty much in the foreground. So, it's both can seem subtle, but
1:10:08 So this this word apparently in fact is what's left after a person collapsed let's say. Mhm. It's not something anymore. Yeah, exactly. Actually, one has to put it the other way round. When the person collapses, there is no reality anymore. And what's left doesn't have any names or can't be described. That's the funny thing with this. Apparently, it's not a new aspect that suddenly appears. that's experienced on top of reality, something personal anymore. Yeah. So
1:10:56 actually that just there is no reality anymore. And certainly what's left can't be regarded as real anymore. But it's also not regarded in a new way. There is this feeling to live in in in the world. Let's say that Yeah. Everyone walks with it around. Let's say most people most people walk with it. Yeah.
1:11:43 Yeah. An illusion. But most people seem to have them make it very important. So they must go traveling to the other side of the planet. You see? Yeah. Yeah. Have to do all kinds of things in order to Yeah. To make Yeah. to seek and find.
1:13:35 [Music]
1:16:12 All right. It just feels like a total starvation for me. And the me takes that personal and thinks I'm being attacked. I know you're not attacking me. You're being lovely and friendly. But
1:16:57 I appear like that. Yes, it appears. It's just me being greedy, I guess, and saying, "I want something. Give me something. Give me something." And there never is anything for it. Yeah. But that's its energy. Yeah. Give me something. World, please. World, life, people. Yeah. Job. Give me something. And that's when the deal starts in terms of it's making deals with life all the time. Whether it thinks about that, I'll be this way in order to get that. Exactly. I'll be this way so you love me. Maybe
1:17:42 life when I'm like this. Do I then get something back? Yep. And it does not work. Well, nothing works. But I mean, it's just purely dreamt. Yeah. Holiness isn't listening at all. Yeah. It It doesn't recognize it even. Yeah. And it can't provide that at all. Yeah. Holiness. Holiness has no idea that there are me going on wanting something. That's exactly what I was thinking this morning about having a tea. It's not even seen or recognized at all.
1:18:34 I just had this piece, you know, like when you're a child and you want something and your parents keep telling you "No please please please I'll be really good forever, but no, you won't." It's like, that's how I feel now energetically towards you. Not that you have anything to give, but yeah, but I mean, the problem is with holiness, it's far worse than something saying no, you don't get it, not recognized, not heard even. Yeah. The cry, the desperate, helpless cry of the seeker. Yeah. Remains unheard. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, father, why have you left me? Or didn't answer
1:19:22 because Oh, there is no God. Yeah. It was just a projection from Jesus. What? It was an empty home. God said there is no one. No, it didn't even say that. He was so careless. There is no answer. Yes.
1:20:24 But Even if asking you something is trying to get something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's this from the sac clarity or whatever. Always something. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. But when me's going, I'm desperate. I need an answer. Blah blah blah blah. There's nothing that can be said to that energy that's going to do anything to it. No, it's an illusion. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. One can't help an illusion. You can't Yeah. You can't give it anything. There's nothing for it. Impossible.
1:21:10 Yeah. Yeah. Well, except another story or another. But yeah, that's impossible in the end. Yeah. And that's what I like about these meetings also. There's this you can directly it seems as if it's a teaching and it doesn't teach anything at all like with a world there seems to be a real world and it doesn't give anything. Yeah. Okay. Right. Yeah. because it can we sit here together. I'm sitting in front. You can ask me is it like this?
1:21:57 Is it like like this? Apparently, there seems to be a reply even and it doesn't give or do anything. Well, it does talk about we talk about life and death about all these existential things and there is nothing in it. I would say it seems to do something. It seems to have an effect but yeah there's nothing in it for anyone for the things. Yeah. Yeah. Of course it does seem to do a lot but there's just nothing in it for any you. Whatever seems to be happening it'll never provide what the seeker is looking. No god. No way. Not at all. Yeah.
1:22:44 Haven't got a better chance anywhere else anyway. No, it's all the same. Yeah, it's all empty. It's all empty. It's all nothing. It's very quite used to it. Yeah. So in a way it's like give me something give me something and then suddenly it
1:23:30 doesn't come up anymore. Exactly. Just the death of that image. That's all. Nothing else will happen. Won't be replaced. Won't be better afterwards for someone. It's just that this notion of I am and I need something doesn't happen anymore. Same room, same meeting, same world. Maybe even same thoughts, same feelings. Yes and no. Because a lot of thoughts and feelings circle around them but basically rest the
1:24:17 same. Well, that's that saying about before and mint chop would carry water. After night, mint chop would carry water. Yeah. Well, I've never chopped wood. No, I know. Yeah. Water. You are carried beyond. Yeah. This change this there is. Yeah. In this sense, in this there is no change in them. And you're still waking up, brushing your teeth, blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah. Yep. Same body looks in the mirror. [Laughter]
1:25:21 [Music] Say again. Well, Yeah, but I'm not saying it to you in order there's a recognition or or it resonates and that will fall away. Yeah. Okay. Well, this might happen. Yeah. But this will not bring about what the seeker is looking for. Yeah. Oh, but apparently there is a dynamic which can impact or change things. Yeah. Just this won't change why the seeker is here for this won't be just can't provide me becoming
1:26:07 fulfilled which is the only interest in for the seeker. That's all. But of course, apparently a lot of things can change and probably everyone here would say that somehow this impacted their lives. [Music] It just was never personal. It just never was for the me for the seeker. Yeah, you said that before, but I totally forgot it. The Mi is never actually interested in what it thinks it wants. It's only interesting the fulfillment it thinks it's going to get from it. Exactly. The only thing
1:26:52 interesting is the fulfillment it assumes is contained within that. Absolutely. Yeah. It doesn't care about more money changes, you know, whatever. Whatever. It's only cares about fulfillment. Yeah. And it's only interested in things which seem to be able to provide them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you say you want more money, it's true. It's not you're not interested in fulfilling. Exactly. Then wanting more money is just purely what it is. Yeah. And it doesn't need to
1:27:38 serve anyone and it doesn't need to happen to make me be fulfilled. It's just free to be this wish in this very moment, so to speak. There is no one who can keep it up or carry it around through life. But if that's what's happening, it's what's happening. Yeah. Well, I'm just thinking to me is the energy is an energy of intention. Tony often describes it as like a very sharp like a spearhead of intention. And that's the intention is always connected to getting from what you like. So if I say I want more money and I'm very intentional about it because I think I'm going to get something when the money arrives. Exactly. For you or for the me the wish to have more money is already
1:28:23 regarded as separate and it's already regarded as a method as a tool for the future fulfillment when the actual money arrives. So the wish is already regarded as that's not my fulfillment to just wish for money. Yeah, I'll be fulfilled when the money actually arrives. But the wish for more money, you know, not as a kept up state, but just as a happening is wholeing complete already. It doesn't happen to anyone and it doesn't need a future moment to make it her incomplete. The person would also say wishing for more money without ever
1:29:10 getting it. It's a waste of time. Yeah. So, it would also need something in the future to make this moment and complete. But no, it's just what happens. And it's never for anyone. It's purely what it is. I want an ice cream now. That's it. Without ever needing an ice cream. It's impossible. It's impossible. It's outside of the world. It's outside of the personal world. The person can't go there or comprehend this at all.
1:29:55 It's complete just to wish for it without it needing to like materialize. Doesn't make sense for the person. How what is a wish that's not real? What would this be? It can't be grasped at all or comprehended. Well, not that it needed to be comprehended, but it doesn't make sense. What's a real and unreal wish? Doesn't make sense.
1:31:10 circumstances and and this feeling that he is let's say the owner of this circumstance. Yeah. Comes with it. Yes. my life, my situation, my circum my experience. These are the circumstances and the the the the pure experiencing of it seems to that's mine to experience this moment makes it a part of my life. That's a part of my life now that I'm aware of. Like I can feel the owner of of the body. That's it. Yeah. Exactly. because
1:31:55 it's also already an experience. I'm aware of this body happening and it's my experience or mine when I'm looking out of it. this this because then it could also think I can be the owner of freedom. Exactly. But in a way that's the only thing the person knows to own things which means they being my experience. And so it must be the same with my fulfillment or freedom or
1:32:41 wholeness. It's it must be something that I can be aware of and own. Otherwise it's useless. If I can't own it and experience it, then it's not worth anything. It's not freedom anymore. Exactly. It's not freedom anymore. Then then it's something that I can't Yeah. use. Um so it's also the only way to comprehend freedom. It has to be something that I'm aware of that I can experience and enjoy and own and be sure of. Yeah. I mean, it can't think outside of
1:33:29 that box. It can't think outside of itself. So, in a way, that's the only logical conclusion. If it's not for me, it's worthless. What do I care about? A wholeness that I never see or feel or experience. That's exactly how the person treats what's happening. This can't be it. Sorry. I'm looking for something that I can have and experience, not just this. Because here so to speak there is no experience of holiness and freedom and fulfillment.
1:34:16 So when you are in charge of something let's say important position and you can have this feeling I'm the owner of it. I'm responsible and well if I'm already owning it I'm responsible for keeping it. When I've already achieved a state that I like, I have to make sure that I don't lose it again. Though hitting me like you said it a few times in the past, you said it recently for me just basically guessing and that is so bang on. Maybe it's this, maybe it would be in that, maybe it would be in that. It just doesn't really have a
1:35:02 clue. Cuz every knee is lost. Whether it thinks it knows what to do or not. Yeah. But everything it thinks is the potential answer. It's just a guess based on maybe what felt good in the past or what others say or what's written in the books or Yeah. It's just his best guess. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like walking through life completely blind. It is like that. Yeah. Maybe if I go this way, maybe that way. Yeah, it's pretty lost. Yeah, someone coming across. Oh, if you stop thinking, you'll be happy. Yeah, but that sounds very So I try this now. Yeah, heart feels very burden. So So 5 minutes later, someone says, "Yeah, but
1:35:48 it's even more fulfilling if you don't have thoughts and a lot of money." Okay, so how do I do this now? And these ideas sound promising. Oh, maybe someone knows something. Yeah, maybe there's some truth in that. Yeah. And the person doesn't know. You can't prove the opposite. There's always be the possibility. Yeah, maybe they're right. Yeah. Maybe if I really realize though. Well, then we might think they definitely look a bit happier than I do. So, it's worth a try. That's also very easy to project into people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But as I said, you can't beat this with
1:36:36 logic. It's natural for the person to think that way. You can't prove it to the person that it'll never work. Well, the person only assumes there is an answer. It just hasn't found it yet or found part of it and not the full. Exactly. Yeah. And there's always the possibility in the personal world, I just haven't tried hard enough. Yeah. And the other thing that's convincing for the person is if somebody says an idea like let like you know stop thinking and they've got a big audience. Well, if everyone else is listen to them, then they must know something. Of course, this comes on top then. That's more psychology then. Of course, if you have millions of people listening to you, it make seem a bit more promising. Yeah, I think it's nice
1:37:22 that you come here and Okay, I'm not saying it's a smaller audience in terms of there's plenty of people interested in this, but compared to everything else, it's a small audience and I think that's really great. Yeah. But there's also a lot of weird stuff out there with small with small. That's also not necessarily a sign for quantity. Yeah, I'll take it as quality assurance. All right, let's have a break.
1:38:08 Thank you. Yeah, a half an hour approximately. Half an hour
