0:00 As a woman, if I honestly thought there were things we should do differently to optimize our results, of course, I would be doing them myself and telling other women to do them, too. The narrative that women need a sexspecific program or nutrient timing guidance or a particular intensity of exercise or rep range or all of it. It makes women feel like they're being spoken to and being considered and then they're part of this community instead of oh, you know, just do what your boyfriend does or what your husband does or so the narrative is very much women
0:48 are not men. And so obviously women need something different. The data says men and women respond to exercise very similarly. Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Lauren Kenzo Simple. She holds a PhD in integrative physiology and is a certified strength and conditioning specialist. She is an expert in both the science and practice of building muscle and strength, cardiovascular fitness, and the relationship between hormones and exercise. Today's discussion is focused on fitness for women, and how it
1:33 overlaps directly with the same things that men should do for their fitness. Therefore, today's discussion is relevant to both women and men. Dr. Keno Simple explains how to structure your ideal training routine according to the time you have available and your health and fitness goals. She also clearly explains what the science says about if and when women's hormone cycles, life stages such as menopause, and things like birth control should actually impact how women should train and when. As we all know, information about best practices for fitness, nutrition, and health are hotly debated online. Dr. Kenzo Simple has become one of the most trusted voices for explaining what the science says about women's specific fitness as well as for delivering clear actionable evidence for protocols that
2:19 work in the real world. It was a true honor and pleasure to host her on the podcast. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Lauren Kenso, Simple. Dr. Lauren Kenzo Simple welcome. >> Thank you. >> Very excited to have you here. To kick things off, is there anything fundamentally different about muscle tissue in men and women? And if not at the cellular level in terms of the hormone receptors that they express or the hormones that they're
3:04 exposed to in a way that should change people's behavior about how to exercise >> when we look at how the muscle responds. So we look at muscle protein synthesis in response to exercise or nutrition. There are no differences. Very similar protein metabolism response, very similar growth response. The major difference and this is hormone related is that the baseline muscularity because during puberty when men experience a surge in testosterone that coincides with an increase in muscle mass. So if you take an untrained adult man and an untrained adult woman there will be a disparity in their baseline muscle mass
3:50 and that is due to differences in testosterone. However, once they start training, they will gain similar relative size. >> So, not that I'm suggesting uh people get into competitive bodybuilding and use steroids, although some people might make that their life choice. The vast majority of people won't. But if we were to look at female bodybuilders at any point in the last 30 years or so, it's very clear that with chemical augmentation, which is typically increasing testosterone or some testosterone like uh derivative, that women can achieve a very impressive level of muscularity that in many ways rivals what certainly men who are not
4:36 taking anabolic steroids can achieve. What does that tell us? the fact that the addition of androgens, testosterone and testosterone like derivatives can take female musculature and make it look essentially like male musculature. Does that tell us anything interesting that informs the non-steroid user, the non-bodybuilder? >> Not so much because we're talking about those suprahysiological levels and that's the real gamecher. So if we think about even with men what is the normal range of testosterone we don't see this relationship between oh you know you're closer to 900 and you are going to respond better to resistance training. So as long as you're within what that wide normal range there doesn't seem to
5:23 be a predictability of your response to training. However, once we get into those supraphysiological levels and we're taking that exogenous hormone, then yes, we are going to develop levels of muscularity that wouldn't necessarily be possible. >> You said something several things uh very interesting. Um if I understood correctly, if a male is somewhere in the reference range, so typically I believe that's somewhere between 300 NOGS per deciliter and 900 NOGS per deciliter. Maybe in some countries it goes up to 1,200 but in any case that a male with 400 NOG per deciliter testosterone versus 600 it's not as if the male with 600 can make you know that much more muscle growth and the same is true for
6:10 women. >> That's right. Okay. >> So as long as you're within that broad normal range and of course what's normal for you differs from what's normal for someone else. So if there are uh changes that might impact you because now you're below what is your normal then that can manifest in in a variety of ways. But there isn't this clear kind of linear relationship where we would say oh let's measure your testosterone you are going to be a hard gainer or you're going to put on mass really easily. If we were to just look at people who are not chemically augmented in any way, not know their testosterone in any way, and here I'm referring to women
6:56 specifically, how much individual variation is there, or what's known about the individual variation among women in terms of the amount of potential to grow muscle and strength? Is it true that some women have a much greater potential to build muscle mass uh that's independent of their testosterone levels? I'd say yes, it's independent of the testosterone levels, but we're going to start with different baselines and then it depends on the stimulus that you are using for growth. And some people are adapting to that growth stimulus to a greater extent than others, but part of that is effective, consistent, progressive training, and
7:42 then part of it is arguably some genetic factors. But when we even look at the molecular level, say fiber type differences, we see adaptation in both sexes that is quite dramatic. And that tells us that both men and women have the potential for large adaptations in either direction, whether we're saying, you know, to endurance type training or resistance type training. >> I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, JW. JWV makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health. Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near infrared, and
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10:50 uh testosterone therapy although we can return to that a little bit later because it seems to be a popular theme in women's health circles now especially in the per perry menopause excuse me a menopause conversation but it's well known from studies uh I believe that were exclusively carried out in men that training a certain way sprints resistance training and um we talk about exactly how can increase circulating testosterone grown in meaningful ways that can feed back on psychology and can feed back on growth and strength development etc. Have the same studies been carried out in women? In other words, if a woman lifts weights um in a certain manner for 45 minutes or 60 minutes, do we expect a big surge in her circulating levels of testosterone?
11:35 >> Well, the circulating levels are already quite low. And one of the issues here is that the way testosterone has been measured in women for a very long time is such that the assays are not capable of detecting some of these normal low levels. So we know a lot less about those lower kind of circulating levels of testosterone in women than I think people acknowledge. But more importantly, that acute response to exercise, th that those that increase in um post exercise, testosterone, growth hormone, etc., people used to think that was the driver of hypertrophy. And so there were all of these training styles
12:22 to sort of maximize that response. And so people would uh promote high rep training or supersets and they'd say, "Oh, you know, this is going to really maximize that response." But what we know now is that response, although acutely, it's not the driver of growth long term. And so it it doesn't really make sense to chase that short-term response because it's not predictive of longer term adaptation. Until fairly recently, women doing resistance training, especially heavy for them, you know, uh somewhere between 70 and 90% of a one rep max or even a one rep max. So, heavy for them was scary for a lot of women.
13:10 I've women in my family and they're like, I don't want to lift weights. I don't want to I don't want to get too big. This is, you know, was a common statement. What do you think changed? I think part of it was the introduction of the bikini category in competitive bodybuilding because that was a level of muscularity that people didn't look at and say, "Oh, that's bulky." That was, "Oh, she looks good in a bikini." And so, people wanted to look like that, realized that they needed to lift weights to do it. And it kind of opened up a door for resistance training being more feminine. Um, I think that in combination with the introduction of more group fitness, it had resistance training components, crossfit, which um,
13:55 a lot of women were drawn to. I think all of that has made women feel more empowered to lift weights and less fearful of the the results. Although I think there is still a sentiment in some circles that lifting weights or lifting too heavy is going to make you huge instead of you know quote unquote toned. Also if there are all of these where are all of these bulky women? When do you walk how often do you walk down the street and see an incredibly jacked woman? It's very very rare. And so clearly no one is getting huge by accident. you're not getting extremely muscular without working really really hard and often incorporating some
14:40 pharmacological help >> for a a woman who's not currently doing resistance training. Um maybe we could talk to her uh for a second. Um at what age is too early for a woman to do resistance training? What does the data say? I think is a cultural stereotype that at least in high school the girls didn't belong in the weight room. That was certainly my experience growing up. Now I think that's shifting. And so it's not that it's unsafe, it's just that it wasn't done. And so people weren't teaching teenage girls how to lift weights. And there's a lot of advantages to that, especially if you're playing sports. Because we have female athletes who are teenagers and then going into college and continuing to
15:27 play their sports and there can be not only a performance improvement but also an injury reduction from doing some resistance training along with your sports specific training. So I think it's it's certainly valuable to to start younger also from a habit building perspective because I know you know if you're somebody who has gone decades without ever doing a lot of structured exercise or without ever lifting weights it can feel kind of daunting and intimidating to learn the new skill. That said we know that you can gain muscle anytime even if you start at 70. So, it's not that it's ever too late to start, but if we start earlier, we are
16:15 building muscle in the way that you're building a savings account or a retirement account. Because if we're not lifting weights and if we're not physically active, then we do start to lose muscle with age. And later in life, it does become a problem. >> I wonder uh if resistance training should be taught earlier. Um it doesn't sound like it should be avoided for young girls. Is that correct? >> Yeah. I mean I think if we see a young kid doing a barbell squat, there's something kind of jarring about that. But think about all the kids we see all the time, you know, on the monkey bars essentially doing pull-ups or muscleups and developing a lot of upper body strength. And certainly young gymnasts have been doing that for a very long time. So, it's not that there isn't any
17:04 sort of resistance training or going around or or or happening in childhood. It's just not the structured training that we think when we talk about lifting weights. >> That's an excellent point and it makes me realize that probably early in development, boys and girls are doing resistance training at the level of pull-ups and monkey bars and all the rest. Um, to the same extent, maybe even the girls a bit more if the boys are all playing video games or like I don't know. Oh no, who knows? But then there's a drop off because of this what really is just a a a cultural stereotype um that boys are going to go to the gym and girls aren't. Although that seems to be changing. Okay. Well, that's a bit of the sociology around resistance training in in young girls. What about um a woman in her, you know, teens, 20s, 30s or
17:52 older who's just never done formal resistance training, perhaps has done other forms of exercise. How should she think about starting resistance training? We could break this down into days per week, sets and reps, etc. But what's the the sort of general contour of a really good starter program for a woman at essentially any age? >> Historically, I think women have been told that exercise is for weight loss. And so, it's really important that we start to shift that narrative because resistance training isn't about being smaller. It's not about the number on the scale. So, we want to think about getting bigger, about growing muscle. And in order to do that, we need to
18:37 challenge the muscle in a way that is a sufficient stimulus for growth. So, if we think about a full body training program, we want to target all of the major muscle groups and a challenging load will differ depending on the exercise and and the muscle groups that we're targeting. And we can train in low, moderate, or high rep ranges, but we need to train close enough to failure. Meaning, if we can only do 10 and not an 11th, that's failure. So, we can stop at maybe eight or nine and that's an appropriate stimulus. But if we finish that set of 10 and we could easily do another 10, then that load is too light. So making sure that we are
19:25 doing a full body training program targeting all the major muscle groups that we're using appropriate loads and we're progressing over time because what you'll be able to do whether it's load or number of repetitions this month will change next month and the month after. >> You mentioned full body program. Does the entire body ha uh have to be trained each session? Or could um somebody use a so-called split like you know chest and back one day rest legs the next day rest shoulders and arms calves some ab work stretch repeat that sort of thing. If you're only going to train two or three times a week, I think it's better to do a full body session because you're hitting all those major muscle groups at an appropriate number of times
20:12 per week. If you want to train more often than that, it does make sense to split it up. So, if you're training four days per week, I would do, you know, maybe upper body, lower body, upper body, lower body. If you're training 5 days or six days per week, then we might split it up even more the way that you suggested. And there are also uh options depending on your personal goals. And so if we're thinking about muscle growth for overall health, then maybe we're not doing as many exercises like accessory type exercises. But if we're thinking about changing the physique with resistance training, then we might tailor the program to your goals and preferences and um work a little bit more on those muscle groups that are important to you. for sake of example
20:58 then I I'll just try and build a structure around what you're saying. Let's say uh a woman decides to do a Monday, Wednesday, Friday whole body workout each time. Take the weekends off. Obviously the days that it starts could shift. Um but due to schedule or other things, sometimes it's a Monday, Friday, sometimes it's a Monday, Wednesday, sometimes they hit Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Seems like a reasonable framework. Would you suggest training the entire body all three or in some cases two two days per week using the same exercises to target the same muscle groups each time? Meaning if she squats on uh Monday for her quads and of course also for uh other muscle groups, you know, hamstrings and glutes and lower back are going to get hit too. But should she squat again on Wednesday and Friday or do you recommend varying the
21:45 the the movement by uh per muscle group? It's an option to do either. I I think it's there's an element of personal preference. If you're working on improving squat strength, then you probably do want to squat more than once per week because it practicing the movement is important. But if we're talking about muscle growth, then we have a lot of options. And so you can do barbell work, you can do machine work, you can do dumbbells. And we can break it up if you wanted more variety by saying, "Okay, Monday your lower body exercises are going to be a squat and on Wednesday we'll do a a good morning and we'll work more of the posterior chain or Friday maybe we'll do more of a a
22:31 glute dominant exercise and we'll do some hip thrusts." And so I think it depends how many exercises you're doing in a session and then how long the workout's going to be before we decide how we're going to split that up. And so you could do this a a more quad dominant movement like a squat, a lunge, a leg press, a step up, and also do more of a glute hamstring dominant movement like a good morning or a stiff leg deadlift. and do both in the same session. Or you could split those up and have more of a quad dominant day and a more hamstring glute dominant day. >> Got it. Um, I'm going to drill down a little bit more into specifics because I anticipate that's what people will want
23:17 and it's uh probably the first time we've had somebody uh so well qualified to get into these specifics about resistance training on this podcast specifically for women. Although you're going to tell us later that the words specifically for women is dangerous language. We'll we'll get back to that. Okay. So, let's assume two or three days per week whole body workouts. Um, one could vary or keep the exercises per muscle group the same. Um, how many work sets after a sufficient warm-up? And when I think of warm-up, I'll take the liberty here and you can tell me where I'm wrong. I think, okay, a light set to kind of remind yourself what the mechanics are, get some blood flow going, see if anything feels like it might need another light warm-up set and just kind of like a stretching out. Then a moderate set, like 50% of your one rep
24:03 max, something where you could do 10 to 15 reps, but maybe you do seven or eight or maybe even a little heavier. And then move to the work set. The work set that's taken within to failure or within a rep or two just shy of failure. How many work sets after a sufficient warm-up for that muscle group? >> At least two. >> I prefer three. >> Uh you could do four. Beyond that is probably overkill. >> And that's assuming one exercise for that muscle group for the entire workout. So four three to four sets per muscle group per workout, each muscle two to three times per week >> with the understanding that many exercises work more than one muscle group. So, if I'm doing a leg extension,
24:49 then I know I'm specifically working the quads, right? But if I'm doing a leg press or a squat, then yes, I'm working the quads, but I'm also working the glutes. And you can kind of say, well, is that a half a set for the glutes? Is that a full set for the glutes? And same thing if we're doing a bench press. Yes, you're working your chest, you're working your delts, you're also working your triceps. So, uh, is that a full set for the triceps, or is it just a tricep push down that I'm going to consider a set for the triceps? So it it gets a little bit murky when we think about exercises that work multiple muscle groups. But I think if we focus on those compound movements, the the bench press, the squats, the deadlifts, then we should think in that range that we're doing at least two, preferably three, uh
25:37 but beyond four probably unnecessary. Well, at three workouts per week, you know, it's, you know, that's getting anywhere from, you know, nine to 12 sets for the quads. That's that's a fair amount of work. If one were to collapse all of that into a single workout, that's that's a lot of quad work. What sort of rest intervals between sets? >> I prefer autoregulation for rest. I think if you have strength specific goals, meaning you're really working on a one rep max deadlift, let's say, in order to repeat that type of performance, you will need longer rest. Um maybe four minutes, 5 minutes, it depends, right? Uh but for an average gym session, you know, using some
26:23 machines or using some dumbbells, then two minutes is probably fine for most people. And once you're you've been training for a while, you'll know when you're ready. But if it makes you feel better to set the timer, then I'd say 2 minutes for most exercises. Um maybe 3 minutes for for something like a squat or deadlift. Is there anything of value that can be done during the rest period other than rest and change the weight? Of course, >> if you want to maximize time efficiency, then we might consider agonist antagonist supersets. So when you look at somebody doing a bench press or chest press and then instead of resting for the two to three minutes and then doing the next set, they go and they do a row.
27:09 And so you're going back and forth and you're you're pairing a push and a pull. And that doesn't seem to interfere with adaptation or even acute performance the same way it would if you didn't rest in between your straight sets of bench press. So that can be a really viable way to train especially if you are crunched for time. So maybe a bench press or some other press type movement, dumbbell incline presses, whatever um she selects and then um move immediately from there to a pull down. >> Sure. >> And then wait out the remainder of the rest interval and then do another superset. That sort of arrangement. >> Yep. superers setting or doing an exercise that normally you would rest
27:54 two or three minutes between and instead resting a minute than going doing the antagonistic muscle and back also um prevents getting lost in your phone because you're on task. You know, it's amazing how much longer workouts get when when one starts texting or paying attention to other things and and the the switching back of focus from exercise to phone is a I don't know I don't know any good studies on this but it it can't can't be healthy. >> Yeah. There are also studies about stretching in between or doing some sort of active recovery type work in between. We don't have enough data to say that's necessarily beneficial. Uh but I think if people are thinking I don't want to sit and rest and do nothing, then the the superset or even a circuit type of
28:41 structure is probably a better way to go. >> What about pushing past failure? some, you know, assisted reps, aka forced reps, done in reasonably good form, so injury isn't a risk. Uh, drop sets where you immediately lower the weight and get a few more reps after failure. Are you a fan of these so-called um intensity techniques? >> I think forced reps where we're not getting much benefit from other than it can be fun if you're working with a training partner. Uh drop sets um are a good kind of finisher because they can especially if you're doing a cable type exercise. I'm not I'm not going to say drop sets are better than straight sets, but it is a way to add some kind of variety into
29:29 especially the last set of of a workout. um or if if you're doing exercises that are um just more conducive to drop sets like a bicep curl or a leg extension or something that's really easy to to immediately drop the weight and go to the next. So, it's not better, but it's certainly a tool and it fits into that timeefficient strategy. >> For the longest time, I thought time under tension and moving the weight really slow was a value. I know that everyone should control the weight so that you don't get injured. No, you know, dropping the weight and swinging it back up and this kind of thing. Um, but assuming that the weight is under control, meaning momentum isn't doing most of the work, you're being careful to protect your um form and posture,
30:16 etc. Is there a best rate of movement for the resistance? Should we emphasize the the lowering phase, etc.? >> There's always going to be a harder part of the movement and an easier part of the movement. So, we should move the weight as quickly as we can during that difficult phase and then control on the easier phase. But trying to intentionally slow down either direction is not particularly advantageous, especially if we think about like standing up from from a squat. We want to stand up from the bottom of the squat as quickly as we can under load. If we have a lot of load, we're not going to stand up super fast, but we should be thinking stand up
31:03 because if we don't, we're less likely to be able to complete that repetition. >> I think this is a really important point that most non muscle physiologists, exercise physiologists have not been trained on, but I'm hearing more about this these days that trying to move the weight as fast as one can under control against resistance should be the mindset inside of the set. Is that correct? Did I I want to make sure I'm not contorting your words at all. >> That's right. And when you think about doing a set of 10, right? By the time you get to seven, eight, nine, the weight is already moving more slowly. You're starting to grind it out because it's getting more and more challenging. And so if you are using a load that that is appropriate, then the rate the the
31:50 time it takes for you to complete that rep will inevitably get a little bit longer. But that's not something you're doing intentionally. >> Got it. Um, getting really granular here, but I get asked these questions all the time and um, as it relates to women's training specifically. You'd be amazed that people are coming to me for that, but almost certainly so that I could ask you. Partial repetitions and isometric holds. Do they have any value? The problem with doing partial repetitions or even playing with tempo is that it's really difficult to replicate consistently. And so I mentioned earlier that we want to progress over time. And if we're standardizing the range of motion and we're standardizing the exercise and
32:38 we're standardizing the tempo, then it's easy to say, "Okay, I'm using 2 and a half more pounds this week. I've progressed." If we're playing around with all of these variables and then we're trying to add load, it starts to get a little tricky because you're saying, I know I'm using more load, but am I cutting the range of motion short in order to to to lift more? Uh am I speeding up the reps in order to lift more? So we want to introduce fewer variables to make sure that we are progressing whether it's a rep or load >> repetition ranges. Uh earlier you said
33:23 getting close to failure or going to failure is the critical component but within a pretty broad range. Um, do you think it's necessary to limit uh oneself to certain repetition ranges on the order of a workout, the week, the month, a phase of the year? Um, are repetition ranges between, you know, three and five compatible with repetition ranges for the, you know, other muscle groups are the same in the same week of 10 10 to 15? I mean, I think there's a lot of um kind of uh vagueness around there this for women and for men. You know, you hear, "Oh, low reps get you strong but don't grow muscle." And then here, higher reps, as long as you go to failure, they'll grow muscle. And uh that's all fine and good, but no one really has ever said clearly how to vary
34:12 this stuff in a way that allows for the best progress. And um I realize that's a lot to to ask you to tackle in one answer, but you have the mic. uh what what are your thoughts on repetition ranges and and how to vary them uh and when >> we used to think and they used to teach all the personal trainers this there was a strength endurance continuum such that you're doing one to five reps and you're building strength and then you're doing something kind of moderate range up to 12 and that's hypertrophy and then beyond that 12 to 20 that's in muscular endurance and our understanding of that has evolved certainly if you're training for maximal strength, i.e. a one rep max, then you need to be training in in
34:57 those lower rep ranges because that is a sports specific uh training. And so it's not that if you do sets of 10, your one rep max won't get stronger. It will, but to maximize your one rep max, then we need to do some very high load, very low rep training. If the goal is hypertrophy, we have way more flexibility because we do see similar growth whether you're training in those high load low rep ranges or the lower load high rep ranges and anything in between provided that we train close enough to failure. However, we need to think about overall volume because
35:43 that's very important for growth. So, if we're doing sets of three, we're going to need to do a lot of sets of three to accomplish the same overall volume that we would get by doing sets of eight or 10. >> That last point, I'm so grateful you said that. I used to hear the late Charles Pulquin say this that if you're going to use higher repetitions, let's say between eight and 15, which for me seems like high repetitions, um you can I don't want to say get away with, but you could do two or three sets per muscle group um or per exercise and maybe two exercises for a muscle group. Whereas, if you were going to train in the three to six rep range, you might need to do eight sets of and because typically one rests longer in between sets when with heavier loads. Those are
36:30 two very different workouts. One is actually much more efficient than the other, even though it gets you something slightly different. I'm sure people are wondering, and I know you don't want to bias people's choices, but do you have a favorite repetition range for you for your level of experience these days? I mean, what do you typically select? I typically do something in the six to 12 depending on the exercise, but I think some exercises are fun to do 15 reps of um and some are not. So I I think if you're doing something like face pulls for your rear delts or leg extensions, I would never say, "Yeah, do a set of three." But if you're doing squats, I don't want
37:17 to do a set of 20 squats ever. And most people don't. Uh so I think we can for most people say all right, somewhere in the the kind of 6 to 12ish is a good sweet spot. If you're new, I'd say go 8 to 12 because we want to get really comfortable with the movement pattern. And so if you're only doing sets of four or sets of five, then you're not repeating the movement enough to get really proficient with the technique. So I'd love for for those people to start in a moderate rep range. I think also if you go beyond that, then there's there's more of a chance of uh kind of form failure and injury risk. And so we want
38:05 to be really proficient in the moderate rep range before we start exploring those lower or higher rep ranges. Do you think it's valuable uh for women to vary the repetition or men uh to vary the repetition ranges um like week by week like okay this week I'm going to train six to 10 reps on everything or um I'm going to go three to five reps on everything for three weeks then I'm going to switch to six to eight for three weeks and then I'm going to go you know 10 to 15 for three weeks and then repeat. Is there is there any um known value for hypertrophy and strength training to doing it sticking with one thing and then systematically varying every say three weeks? >> You can do it that way. I prefer to
38:51 combine it into the week. So if let's say we're doing squats twice a week, then let's do a lower rep set day and a moderate rep set day. And you can do that for all of your kind of main compound lifts. And that adds some variety, but also means you have the data to make sure that you're progressing in each of those rep ranges kind of simultaneously. Whereas if we were to do sets of six for three weeks and then move to sets of 12, then I don't really have that anchor point for am I making progress because now I'm doing the that lift in another rep
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40:23 so make sure to go to drink a1.com/huberman to get started today. A moment ago, you said something and I'm so grateful that you said this because I don't think it's ever been communicated as clearly as you did and I would just want to double click on it. Um, there's this assumption that heavier sets, and I'm not referring to one to three reps. I mean, let's say in the five to eight repetition range, final repetitions close to failure or failure, that somehow they are more dangerous um than high repetition sets. In my experience, high repetitions from 15 to 25, especially on compound movements, get people hurt at least as often as the heavy stuff.
41:09 And I think it's because it's I'm I'm guessing here, but that it's hard to concentrate and generate perfect form on a very high repetition set. And compound movements are where you can get hurt. You can get hurt on isolation movements, but multi- joint movements done for 20 reps, I mean, unless you're really locked in mentally, that's often where people get injured is my observation. >> Yeah, I think it's an equal opportunity game. You know, we we really need to make sure that form is dialed in and that you have a spotter or a training partner if appropriate depending on the lift that you're doing. Because if you're doing high rep deadlifts, for
41:55 example, you do have more opportunities to lift the weight in such a way that you just tweak something. And sometimes if people are doing those lower rep heavier sets, they're more likely to kind of take that moment, reset, lock in, and then perform the next rep. And it's a bit easier to rush the set and not kind of force yourself to to to reset and and focus on those form cues when you're using a load that doesn't require you to do so. >> Thank you. Yes, recently there was a pretty uh avid debate online about heavy weights versus not heavy weights, especially for older folks. And since
42:41 now I'm 50, I place myself in that category. I'm a big fan of low repetitions, but not three or less. Um, but let's just say some of my peers feel that that's super dangerous not to recommend, you know, five to eight repetition range. It could be that some people are just better at quote unquote locking everything in and getting really focused and doing a proper set when there's fewer repetitions then and some people might be great at I I realize that doing 20 repetitions of stiff-legged deadlifts and every repetition is just beautiful. But isn't there the idea that some of the smaller supporting muscles can fatigue as a set goes on and make one susceptible to injury? Is that or is that just gym? Is that just like jock science?
43:27 >> No matter what, we need to make sure that we're appropriately warmed up and that we're using proper technique. So, if you try to go do a one rep max or a set of three and you're not properly warmed up, I'm concerned. >> Sure. But assuming all else is equal, then depending on the exercise, we also have to think of overall systemic fatigue. Even fatigue um on the cardiovascular system if you're doing 30 squats, you might be out of breath before your legs give out and that can introduce another mental challenge to the set. >> Excellent point. I hadn't considered that. I also don't enjoy 20 repetition squats. Although on the belt squat, I'm
44:13 finding some, let's just say, some personal growth through them. Mental personal growth. It's a whole different thing to do high repetition leg work. It's like a and it is very cardiovascular. Speaking of which, um I think most people nowadays, men and women, uh understand that cardiovascular exercise is important as well. And I realize that term pisses off the endurance athletes because what is cardiovascular exercise? I'm talking about something that you can repeat for six minutes or more. um continuously uh gets heart rate elevated and so on. I think most people think of this as cardio. Um how do you recommend uh scheduling cardio with the two or three day per week um resistance training? Does it matter if somebody does it before or after their weight training on
45:00 a given day? Um can they do it on the same day? Would they be better off doing it on other days? Uh what are the guidelines? So the concept of kind of the interference effect or issues with concurrent training come from the idea that you have both endurance training goals and resistance training goals and that if you perform those too close together that the endurance training might blunt some of that hypertrophic adaptation. um we see that could be true if you're doing very high volume work and you're stacking it very close together. So assuming your hypertrophy
45:45 or strength is the goal, then we would want to perform that first and if possible, separate them by, you know, at least several hours. But we really don't run into true uh interference effect type results unless we're doing tons of training and you know, you're doing your sprints before you do your leg workout. I would avoid that. I think we also need to think about whether we have endurance training goals or we're just trying to be fit for health. Most people listening to this probably um would like to get stronger, probably would like to add muscle to specific muscles and maybe have it in mind and we'll get here in a moment to not
46:32 deliberately not add muscle to other muscles and um to be what they consider lean enough and that want to be fit. I always think of the the general life requirements like you want to be able to carry your suitcase or bagging if you have to run for the plane that you can do it without coughing up along. Pick things up and not get injured. Sprint if you need to. Play a game of frisbee or soccer or or or volleyball, a pickup game at the picnic or something. Uh go for a hike maybe with a kid on your back, maybe with a backpack if you don't have kids. I think the sort of like just ability to go out on a Sunday and take a long hike with a pack without having to train for it. the ability to sprint for the plane without without dying when you arrive there. Um, these kinds of things to me are the real life metrics. I feel
47:19 like that's what most people want. And then of course some people want to run marathons and be powerliffters and, you know, Alex Hunnel just, you know, scaled a a tower in Taipei without any ropes. So, you know, there's a huge range, but I think what I described, I think, is where most of us are at. What do you think most women are at? >> Lifting weights is so important because we don't have a lifestyle fun equivalent activity. >> Mhm. But I don't think we all need to be going for a jog or spending an hour on the elliptical if we prefer playing tennis or going for bike rides with friends or going for hikes or something that is physically active and enjoyable
48:07 and that we will be more likely to do consistently. So there is an element of that that can be really freeing for people because they think, "Oh, well then I don't need to worry about adding these structured cardio sessions in my week. I'm just going to do those outdoor physical activities with friends that I'm enjoying and also benefiting from." >> What are the data on walking? Um I've heard 7,000 steps or so per day is a is a good number to shoot for. where I heard that the 10,000 number was just kind of thrown out there the same way that 8 hours of intermittent fasting was just kind of thrown out there. We'll get back to that. How important and helpful is walking for women in particular?
48:53 >> I like to think of walking as something you can do that is not structured exercise. And so we're not thinking about meeting a step count necessarily. You can do that, but people who focus on something like step counts usually do so for a few months and then stop because being kind of obsessive about tracking that metric gets a little old. >> And it's important to think not only about hitting one target, whether it's, you know, minutes of exercise per week or step count or heart rate goal, but what are we doing for the the other hours in the day? So I think somebody who isn't active at all going from doing
49:38 very few steps to getting it up to four, five, 6 thousand steps, yes, we're going to see a huge benefit. But if you're somebody who is physically active in a variety of ways and you are moving throughout the day, not necessarily focusing purely on steps, then that metric of step count is a little bit less useful because we are getting in that overall activity that is going to be beneficial for health. So, what I'm hearing is if a woman is in the gym two or three days per week lifting the way that you described and has some outdoor or or indoor social sport type activities that she enjoys, there's no need to specifically add cardio unless
50:26 there's an endurance goal or a sprint competition goal. Is that right? >> Yeah. And I think a lot of people are adding cardio for weight loss goals and that is a bit of a fool's errand because the fat loss that we will get from just adding exercise is pretty disappointing relative to the fat loss that we will see when we adjust our nutrition. >> What about getting up toward max heart rate for sake of the dreaded V2 max? No, I don't say dreaded. I mean, I just think it's funny cuz, you know, 5 years ago, no one was talking about heart rate variability and V2 max. I mean, again, I'm not trying to inject male fitness or my routine into it, but by virtue of what I've learned in the course of the
51:11 podcast and also what I enjoy, I make it a point to get on the aine bike or some other thing I can do at max effort or close to it without getting injured um and do, you know, 30 second sprint, 30 second rest, 30 second sprint for at least once a week, ideally twice. I'm assuming, and you tell me, you have the the the credentials here. Uh I'm assuming that by getting my heart rate way way up uh for a couple minutes each week, that I'm doing myself some benefit separate from my resistance training. Is that true or is it or is it um because I I see I mean, I'm not a calorie counter. Kind of an intuitive sense of what I need. Um, but I see, you know, at the end of those workouts, it says I burned 100 calories, which is, you know, I, you know, I walk I eat 100
51:57 calories of blueberries in one pass by the blueberry basket. So, so I'm not trying to do it for caloric burn sake. >> Yeah. The value of the really highintensity stuff is time efficiency. So, if we look at those adaptations to endurance exercise or if we're going to just say cardio broadly, then you can get those by doing more long form moderate intensity. You can also get those by doing higher intensity for shorter amounts of time. So, it's not that it's magic in terms of the adaptation, but you're able to get more bang for your buck because you're doing that higher intensity and you don't need to do it for quite as long.
52:43 >> Let's talk about the somewhat barbedwire topic uh these days about variations in hormones as they relate to the menstrual cycle and training requirements. There's a lot of assumptions about this. There's a lot of conjecture and I do believe there's also a lot of outright fabrication. Not because anyone necessarily uh wants to mislead, but I don't think anyone has spent as much time with the data on this as you have. So, should women train differently depending on where they are in their menstrual cycle? >> The short answer is no. The conversation around the menstrual cycle is good. I think it's good that we're talking about it. It's good that people feel
53:29 comfortable discussing it with their coach. The unfortunate shift of because you have a menstrual cycle and because hormones are fluctuating, you need to change how you are exercising is way too simplistic and doesn't align with the data that we have. So instead of worrying about whether you're in this phase or that phase or whether estradile is high or low, I would really focus on how you feel. Train hard, train consistently, train progressively. If at some point in your cycle you experience menstrual symptoms or fatigue or a lack of motivation that
54:15 you relate to menration, then having an option to skip a workout or adjust the exercises that you're doing for that workout or do another form of exercise that day is completely fine. Not saying you have to grind it out, push through, but you are not less capable that day because you have your menstrual period or because the hormone profile has shifted in one direction or another. >> There's a broader conversation around this, I think, about when to push through internal resistance, either just kind of general malaise, like one doesn't feel well or didn't sleep well, um whether or not one is feeling run down. Maybe we can kind of tuck that into this conversation about uh ways to
55:03 vary training or not vary training according to phase of the menstrual cycle. Let's say somebody is not feeling as rested as they normally do or would like to. And I say that because people assume you need eight hours of sleep, right? I one might need eight, they might need 10. I'm fine on 6 and 1 half to seven. I prefer eight, but actually 6 and 1 half to seven I'm good. five, that's a whole other issue. So, should women push through a day of a workout if they got, you know, maybe an hour or two less than their normal ration of sleep that they need? Is it or are they putting themselves in some sort of danger if they do that? >> There's no danger. You might feel worse, >> but subjective
55:50 measures of performance are different often from objective measures of performance. And that goes for the menstrual cycle symptoms and and other factors as well. So you might go in and and deadlift the same weight as last week and you'd say, "Wow, this feels really heavy or the weight's moving really slow this morning." But you're still lifting it. So objectively, the performance was the same. It's just your experience of what it felt like differs. It feels harder today. To your point, that can be the case for a variety of reasons. We can be underslept or we are jet-lagged or we're stressed about something workrelated and feeling
56:36 distracted. There's a lot of reasons why we don't have a 10 out of 10 workout every single time we go to the gym. So, I think there's an argument to be made to Yeah. push forward, just do it anyway. even a subpar workout is better than no workout at all. >> In your experience and observation, um do you think that women who take up resistance training enjoy it on average? Do they tend to enjoy it or do they tend to um enjoy the feeling afterwards? How do you how do you feel about resistance training? >> I think it's particularly powerful for women because and I alluded to this earlier, there's a history of marketing ineffective programs to women
57:22 or encouraging them to constantly switch it up. Try this new group fitness class or try this new at home video workout and they never really see the results that they are hoping to see. And so you're just program hopping and disappointed and feeling like I'm putting in all this work. I'm doing the thing and I'm not seeing results. When you stick to a good resistance training program for long enough, not only do you start to see results in the way that your body looks, because muscle growth can change your body composition and can change your physique, but you also have this empowering feeling of progression over time. I can get stronger. I can do more. And that keeps you coming back.
58:08 It's really motivating. So, I think that can be really powerful that you feel like you're getting something out of what you're putting in and you're more likely to stick to it long term. >> For anyone, but since we're talking mainly about uh women's resistance training today, um do you think there's value to spending two or three weeks, maybe less, maybe more, just learning movements properly before getting into the whole business of progressive overload? >> Yes. Because the problem is you start to see, oh, I can do more than I did last week. And then you think, oh, well, this is linear, right? And so you think, I can add 10 pounds every week forever. It doesn't work like that. So inevitably
58:53 you end up uh training in or many of us have trained in such a way that we injured something, tweaked something, form failed because we got so focused on just lifting more weight, lifting more weight, lifting more weight. So, I agree that uh a slower progression could be better, but that's also the power of just trying to add another rep instead of trying to add weight week in and week out. >> We're all told we just kind of like need to exercise. And there's examples of how to do movements, but be wonderful if there was kind of like getting the basics. Like a sprinter doesn't just go sprint, they learn how to do all these drills and um and move into it. And some of these things are complex and it's not just about avoiding injury. It's about
59:40 getting the most out of the exercise over time. That's kind of how I'm I'm thinking about this. >> I think it's also making sure that you are using proper technique and full range of motion because that's one of the other things that is often the first to go when we really try to load up and load up and load up. And you see this with people squatting and benching all the time. they're just adding another plate but then cutting the range of motion short to accommodate that additional load. And so that's not really progressive overload because you changed your range of motion. So I think especially if a lift is technically demanding something like a hinge, you know, deadlift, good morning. For a lot of people who've never done that movement pattern, it can be really
1:00:26 difficult to just develop that kinesthetic awareness like where am I in space? Am I bending my knees too much or not enough? Um am am I starting to round my upper back? And when you can really understand the proper form, then you know how to load it. >> If a woman just feels lousy at one particular phase of her cycle, and that's a consistent month-to-month thing for her and she doesn't want to train during that time. It sounded like there's no issue with that that you're not suggesting that you that women push through that necessarily that they we're on the West Coast that they honor their their feelings is how people speak out here. Um that they
1:01:11 honor their feelings as opposed to push against the you know the the sense like it this is just a tough time to do this. But you're from New York and you're giving me this look now where that makes people who are people are just listening. Um Lauren's looking at me like, "Yeah, that sounds like uh you know, I don't know." So, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. What are you thinking? >> Well, I'll tell you this. We have survey data looking at how many people report experiencing menstrual symptoms, things like uh cramps and low back pain, uh lack of motivation, irritability. And 75 80% of women report feeling those symptoms. and none of them report changing their training in response to
1:01:57 those symptoms. So, and not to say that you shouldn't, but typically, at least where the data shows, it's not that common that people are overhauling their training even in response to menstrual symptoms. That said, most people experience them for one or two days. So, we're only talking about skipping or adjusting one, maybe two workouts. So, I I don't feel that strongly about it either way. I think it, you know, it's up to you. And like I said, there will be a variety of reasons within any given month why we show up to the gym and we don't feel our best. And some of those days, again, for a variety of reasons, we might decide to make some adjustments and other days we might just decide to
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1:04:14 of which are hormone based, some of which aren't. And of course, within the domain of hormone-based, you've got estrogen based, progesterine based, and and there's others as well. What are the general and more specific takeaways from that uh literature? Does hormone-based contraception impact the adaptation to exercise, the motivation to exercise, or anything else that women should be aware of? Um, what do the data say? The majority of these studies are on folks taking combined oral contraceptive pills. So, this wouldn't apply to something like a hormonal IED uh or or the there's a patch that people are using now that it's more modern take, but there is enough data at this point to say when it comes to strength, hypertrophy, power, we're not seeing
1:05:01 combined oral contraceptive pills move the needle in either direction. And there were appropriate hypotheses to say, oh, maybe this could be detrimental or maybe this could be beneficial. But what we see similar to the influence of the endogenous hormone fluctuations, which are quite substantial, if those aren't affecting performance or exercise induced adaptations, it's not that shocking that the hormonal contraceptives wouldn't move the needle to a great extent either. >> Yeah, it's an excellent point. I mean, if one just looks at the uh the plot of estrogen levels or progesterone levels across the different phases of the menstrual cycle, you know, these are enormous differences. Uh likewise for testosterone and other and other
1:05:47 hormones in women. Um and you're making the point that uh hormone based uh pill contraception um is making changes in hormones of at least that magnitude. And and so there's no reason to expect that it should impact um at least ability. I can think of motivation to train um ability somehow like if it relates somehow to contractile ability the muscles or or tendon um uh tendon strength or something and then the actual adaptation like so it sounds like none of these things block the adaptation to exercise the increase in muscle size or strength or both. Is that right? >> That's right. I I would say if you're just starting a contraceptive pill there some people have symptoms and side
1:06:34 effects some of which are kind of attenuated over time and some of which are not and you need to switch to something else. So you might for a short term because that pill is not a good fit for you then there could there could be some short-term influence in that sense. But on the flip side, a lot of people go on a hormonal contraceptive because they have really severe menstrual symptoms and then that can be helpful in relieving that pain. And so then you might be willing to to go to the the gym more frequently during the week where you have your menstrual period. So I I think we can we can think about those kind of practical implications, but in terms of just the hormones themselves and the fact that, you know, we're downregulating the endogenous hormone
1:07:19 production by introducing these synthetic hormones that doesn't seem to impact performance or adaptations to exercise. >> What if any are the really good data around the relationship between pmenopause and menopause and the hormone changes that tend to occur? Let's assume without hormone replacement therapy for the moment and training. Should women change their training as they enter
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