0:03 What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. >> Dove Cameron. Welcome to Call Her Daddy. >> Thank you so much. >> It's so nice to meet you. >> It's so nice to meet you, too. >> Um, you just turned 30. >> Yeah. >> How are we feeling? Honestly, I feel great about 30. I looked right down the barrel of the lens. I was like, I feel great about 30. I don't really have any like hang-ups about it as far as I can tell so far. Like I feel like I have always felt older than I was. And I think in a lot of ways I was like waiting to be in my 30s because I feel like for me at least when I was younger
0:50 I was really like wanting to be heard, wanting to be taken seriously, wanting to be respected at a younger age than people were willing to give that to me. And so I've always felt like the older I got, the closer I got to feeling like the world was perceiving me in the way that I perceive me. I think that is so real because I feel like the society makes us feel like, oh my god, your 20s are going to be the best years of your life. You're going to have so much fun. And like I feel like I've been so fortunate to sit with women on this show who are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. I just sat with Michelle Obama and she was like, "Wait girl, this is the decade. 60s are the shit." And I'm like, "Okay." So, I do think we kind of are brainwashed almost to think specific
1:37 eras of our youth are going to be incredible. >> What do you think you're personally excited to leave behind in your 20s? >> God, just feeling not so like like feeling like I don't deserve a seat at the table yet cuz like I really gaslight myself and I have crazy imposttor syndrome around like what I deserve, what I have earned, if I'm good at something. Do I know enough about this to call myself by this title? And I feel like in my 20s, it was so much like self- sabotage and second-guessing and hiding away because I didn't take myself seriously. And then there's something about late 20s to now 30 that I feel like even I can't really tell that I don't
2:22 know what I'm doing in this in this area of my job. Like I feel like I've well and truly earned some things that like in my 20s I was a little more reticent to give myself credit for. So like that's something I'm really looking for. I also just think like in general I know this is really surface level and kind of easy but like people pleasing in general >> yes >> was something that I was so guilty of and so uh under the influence of like and it wasn't it wasn't because I wanted people to like me. It was coming from a place of like I just don't want to upset anyone. so real and so unrewarding because actually what you're saying is we actually start to clue into I don't need to people please as much. I actually don't need to dress for the male gays or I don't need to do these things. So we're actually getting wiser and that's terrifying to the society
3:09 that we live in of oh my god a woman in her power dare she actually use her use her voice and stand up for herself. And so it's a whole thing to repress us. But then I I'm speaking to all these women recently and they're like, "Wait, it's amazing." I'm like, "Why does it always feel like we grow up as these young girls and we're like so terrified of aging because there's so much rhetoric around you basically disappear and and your worth is essentially gone if you're not like a fresh 21-year-old." >> And that's why I love these conversations. We're like, "Guys, again, I'm sitting with a woman who's like, I'm feeling better." What a concept. >> Yeah. I think like I think that I mean if you look at the who would benefit from the messaging of you're
3:54 only valuable when you are barely legal, you're only valuable when you don't know yourself yet. You're only valuable when you're body still has like leftovers of looking like a child. Like if you look at those things and you ask yourself like what is the demographic that benefits from that messaging? It's not us. Like it's women aren't pushing that being like being you know there's a there's a vested interest in >> highlighting those years that truly in my experience were the worst [ __ ] years. Like my 20s were the worst. So I think there's a vested interest in glorifying that because then it sort of keeps us in a position of yeah disempowerment. I do think also something interesting you just said is you've always kind of felt older and I
4:40 think there's a beauty yes of getting older but then we also we have to talk about our looks right where it's like it can feel great but then there's this standard that we feel pressure especially in this industry. Have you ever felt pressures around Botox or fillers or um editing and all of that that comes with our job to maintain your stance in this industry? Yeah, I mean that's a really good and I think like I had think I have a complex answer around that. When I was younger, I had a really intense uh sort of set of like rules and strictctures about like what I was allowed to be and who people wanted me to be and how I was going to represent
5:25 that, dive head first into that, always be that, right? And a huge part of that was like an infantilization. And like I was just so scared to not be 18. Like that was something that was really scary for me. Not because I believed it, but because the culture was so loud about it. And especially my position in the culture, starting out on Disney Channel being blonde and being so bubbly and open with with the world in a way that was not healthy for me. Um, and so a couple years ago, I had this big reckoning with myself. I had like finally let my body just be what it is. Like I stopped doing all the things to my body that I was doing before um that were really selfharming. And so I processed a lot
6:13 and I wrote a lot and I went to a lot of therapy and I came out on the other side of it like I guess sort of externally unrecognizable. But I really feel like I've bucked any sort of fear about aging in that way. >> And it's beautiful to hear you say like it's actually happened recently. >> Well, yeah. I also think like this is was sort of an accidental thing that happened but like I think so much of what I was doing to myself which is a very broad umbrella because like I don't want to trivialize any of the things that I was going through experiencing um doing to myself but under that very broad umbrella of all of the things that I used to do that I now no longer do part of what made it really clear to me that I didn't want to torture myself
7:00 anymore. And for me it was torture. Like for me it was torture. Anything aesthetic or anything to do with food or overex exercising, everything in that genre of like shapeshifting I would call it for me was really selfharming because it wasn't for me. It wasn't to feel beautiful. It was in fact to to be to feel safe. Like it I had it in my head that like if I was physically perfect, no one would harm me. like in this really weird kind of juvenile way of like maybe I'll be accepted, maybe I'll be loved, maybe the bad bad things that used to happen won't happen. It was like this way of controlling the one thing I could control to hopefully create an
7:45 environment where like bad things wouldn't happen. I don't know if that makes any sense, but I just I came from such a crazy background >> and like litany of experiences that I was just looking for anything to grab on to that felt like this is my choice. >> Can we get into your background cuz I want to get into all of this? like I there's so many things that you're talking about that I think are unfortunately but realistically like very relatable for a lot of women who are going to be listening today. And so I think kind of having a little bit of your background and understanding where you came from I think will also give more context to then these themes that we're going to talk about. Um okay let's
8:30 go all the way back to the beginning. Grew up on a small island in Washington. What was your town like? Pick paint the picture. >> Bainbridge Island. Shout out Bainbridge Island. A world that only exists to the people that live there. >> Like big population, small. >> Small. I mean like 20,000. Okay. >> So like for an island small, but for like a town maybe medium. I don't know. I don't know. I've lost plot of the scale. But Banebridge is really idyllic. It's like you So you're in Seattle. You land in Seattle. You take a ferry boat, 20-minute ferry boat ride. You can walk on or you can drive on. Fits like 180 cars or something. Someone's going to have to back me up on that. She's like googling. >> Um, and it's super quaint. Like it's
9:17 very there's like no crime, you know? They like opened up a weed store like 10 years ago. Like if there's any crime, it like rocks the [ __ ] It's like 10 years and then nothing nothing happens after that. It's kind of like the things that you see on TV, like the small town, everyone knows everyone. >> It's very that. It's also like the businesses are named after the family that's been there for five generations and they all like I went to school with the same last names of my sister and my mom and everybody, you know. >> Got it. >> It's like that. >> And what did you do for fun as a kid? >> Oh god, [ __ ] nothing. I mean, like, no, because it's it's No, because it's it's such a beautiful place, but it's like, you know, one of those places where like the kids start like smoking weed really early cuz they're just so bored. Like, it was like that
10:03 >> because >> Was that you? >> No, it wasn't me. I mean, like I was hanging out with those kids, but I was like scared. >> Classic. >> Yeah. >> You're like pretending you're smoking, but you're like, "Oh my god, >> I was like, I'm a singer." >> I was like going to musical theater being like, "No, but I I didn't. I didn't." Um, but I was in with that. Like I got, you know, I got a tattoo at 14 kind of kind of town. >> The Capricorn tattoo. >> Yeah. >> Um, community theater. What did you like about being on stage? Like were you confident young girl like ready to go and Okay. >> Yeah, I was. I was one of those like um I think I was probably pretty annoying like when I was younger. I was like I was very confident. I was very friendly. I was very just personable. Like I was
10:50 very wanted to talk to everyone, wanted to be friends. Um, very loud. Like I don't know. I grew up with parents who like were artists and so they were like, "Whoever you want to be, you be her." And I was like, "Great, got it." Like written it down. Got it. So I was very confident. I was very um for a while. And then I I feel like middle school kind of like beats it out of you. Like middle school on the other side you're like "Wait >> I'm being perceived. People hate me." I think um something that's really relatable of the middle school commentary is like and it makes me sad for our younger selves is there's the version of us before like you said being perceived by your peers and there's the version of you at home that just has >> this endless idea of who you can be in the world that you want to be in and
11:36 then you start to interact and life happens and horrible things happen and then that starts to mold you which is just life and I know obviously something horrible able happened when you were 8 years old. Um, your best friend was murdered by her father, which is like saying that out loud. I I'm like don't even know how to communicate how sorry and I can't even imagine how painful that time was. And even still decades later, how painful that must be even to talk about it. Um, do you mind though sharing like how you found out this news and what happened during that time in your life because 8 years old is like life is great and then >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was really Yeah, I
12:22 guess it was like that. We we had a very sort of like a Yeah. idllic sort of foresty um childhood. Haley was her name. She um lived also on the island for the majority of our childhood. And uh we had met when we were two. Like it was just one of those things where you know like they're like some little girls they meet each other and they're like, "Oh, that's like you just Yeah. Um and it's funny. I rarely talk about this. not because it's like a it's a problem to talk about, but just like it's so not the first thing that people usually ask me. >> Um, but she uh her parents had gotten a
13:09 divorce and it was really um messy and I had stayed with her dad for like quite a lot of the summer before this happened. And I think even at 8 I like >> it was like a dark energy, right? like he was a very angry man. >> Um, and I was at home one day sick from school. So, it must have been like third grade. Um, and I it was we had like landlines and it was like that era where if you picked up a landline like my parents were in their office like uh in a different building, you know, nearby at home and I was at home and they they had an incoming call
13:57 for their office and I picked it up cuz I was just like a kid and I was just like listening in. Um, and it was actually our preschool principal who was tasked with making the call, Janice. Um, who was an angel, an absolute angel, and that's where we met. Um, and she basically said like, "This is going to be a really, really disturbing call. Um, Haley and Kelsey are gone. Steve is gone." And he took the girls with him is what she said. Like just very quick. And I think my it was my mom on the phone. And I remember her like decompressing, not knowing how to handle it. And then I think they heard me like express some sort of child noise, whatever that was, like a gasp.
14:43 And then I they came in and and then we just like didn't get out of bed for like two days cuz it was so impossible to process. and 8 years old. like why I wanted to ask you about that more is because I think that is so formative for everyone around you, but it's like that's something that like stays in your body because I feel like at that young of an age and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to trauma at young ages. not that exact trauma, but like there's something as human beings where when it's that young, you probably don't talk about it that much at that young age cuz like what is mental health and how do you even speak about these things? So, you internalize it in your body and then it sticks with
15:28 you. >> Yeah. >> Um, how do you think losing her kind of started to shift the way that you saw the world? >> That's a really good question. Um I think well my parents tried to put me in therapy for a while because I think even they knew like because it even at the time like this was 22 years ago so it's like mental health wasn't the internet wasn't what it was. My parents didn't really know like there was no therapy speak in the way that we all kind of can psychoanalyze each other and like pop psychology each other now. Like they really didn't know. Um but they knew enough to put me in therapy. like I was very very very very very disturbed by um knowing someone for all that time and being like raised around them and
16:14 then realizing that they are capable of doing something so harrowing. Um, and I think that that kind of like fissured my psychology, like my brain and how I process things, like kind of like I don't want to be dark, but like kind of forever. Like I still have uh issues and you know, there were more things that happened that sort of echoed that experience. Um, but I still have experiences where I'm like, I'm grateful for the relationships that I have as long as I have them. I'm grateful for the good things as long as I have them because truly at any moment it can be just an entirely flipped script, black and white situation. Um, which I think I have acceptance around because I've had so much practice at it. But I also think
17:00 like, you know, it is something that I I think I forget is is playing is running my brain so much like it's really the source of most of my anxiety. I know in the past you you kind of talked about how this death accelerated a darkness that was going on in your own home. >> Yeah. >> Can you kind of explain what you meant by that? >> Yeah. I think I don't actually know as an adult like how to rationalize the correlation between this loss and then sort of subsequently what happened with my family. Um, but I think it was just like my mom could probably tell you better, but I think it was just sort of an invisible
17:47 um chipping away at an already sort of shaky foundation. Um, that was my parents' marriage. Um, and I want to state from the beginning like my mother is uh my mother is totally okay with me speaking about this stuff. I would never speak out of turn. Um, and I think my dad would be too, but I think it was my parents were not um a love match. Like my parents were not a love match. My dad uh was at least at the very least not straight. Um, they got married because they got pregnant and it was like my dad came from a Catholic family and they had love for each other. Like I see home videos from
18:32 when I was little or before I was born and like I think my dad truly loved my mom just not as a husband and wife, >> right? Like romantic. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I I don't think he ever fully accepted that about himself. Um and so they just had this sort of like they they both wanted something from each other that the other person couldn't give, right? and and I knew that there was something off >> like your whole life. >> I think I would say right around eight. I would say right around that time. Um it's funny. Someone called me out once for being like, "Damn, so much [ __ ] happened to this girl when she was eight." And I was like, "Actually, yeah,
19:18 >> that was kind of the year banner year." >> That was the big year. The big eight for you. Some people it's like 21 or 18. You're like eight. >> My frontal lobe developed at >> eight. Hey, try me. >> That's true. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by T-Mobile. Okay, Daddy gang. I am starting to think a night in may actually be the new night life. Uh, where am I in my life right now? Okay, I have been working so much lately that all I want to do at the end of a long day is hang out on my couch. There is just nothing better than getting into comfy clothes, pulling out some of my favorite snacks, curling up with Henry and Bruce and Matt. You can join too, Matt. And doing absolutely
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20:49 line in good standing. In terms of your childhood in your home, um, your dad struggled with depression and bipolar disorder and that that's a lot. That's a lot to as a kid handle. Um, and I'm sure you're sitting here today with a different perspective on it. had I met you 10 years ago and then had I talked to you 15 years to 20 years because I'm sure as you become an adult you have a different perspective and you're able to process things differently and empathy comes into play. Um but when did you realize that he was struggling with these things? Like did your family have a conversation about a diagnosis?
21:39 You know, yeah, we did. Um, it was such a [ __ ] blur. Um, but I knew I knew that there was something cuz like I said, I was a very precocious kid. Like I was not there was never a time where I was sheltered and then suddenly I was like big new world. Like I was at the adults you were clued in >> table. Yeah. Um Yeah. In a big way and not in a way that I regret either like in a way that I actually think is what I needed. Uh, I think the thing that I would say is what I was the most aware of was that my dad had really intense emotional swings. Like I knew that I knew how to be prepared for that. Um, I knew how to
22:24 hopefully work around that, which also then like obviously splinters off into like how your brain works as you get older and affects who you date and what you accept. Um, but that's not like I I know this might be controversial. This is just my personal opinion about my my father, but I truly don't think it was his fault. I think he was so traumatized and so repressed and he had a really really really really rough childhood and life and all of that. Um, and I think that he was doing his best with the tools that he had and he didn't have enough tools. And you know, there were times when like if something completely divorced from something that I did or my my sister or
23:09 my mom did happen, but it was like we were the person in the room. Not really my sister. My sister and him were were were better about this because she was just less combative. Um, and I think she would also be okay with me saying that. like she was much more like um she had learned to avoid his triggers in like a different way. Um whereas I would try to avoid them and then if they happened I would sort of like fight back cuz I was like you I don't care that I'm 12. You cannot talk to me like that >> which was not something that worked well not something that earned me gold stars in the family household. Um my mom I think loved it. My mom was always like go baby but my dad really didn't like being challenged. Um, and so we had a bit of a tenuous relationship as I got older. Um, but I,
23:55 you know, I would come home and something would happen and suddenly like all the VHS would be in the trash and he'd be like, "You no more nice things. You cannot have this. Like you're being punished for this thing." And it was like for what? You know, it was just something it was something that was happening in his brain purely for him that like he had either like mis uh labeled like something that I had done wrong that was like I think I've told this story before, but like I had this Barbie bubblegum toothpaste and one day he came home from the office like really stressed and he used it in this kind of like aggressive joking way like I'm going to take the toothpaste and I like a 8-year-old was like no that's my tooth Ew, germs, whatever I said. And he heard that as like he was like, I
24:44 pay for everything in this house, you know, like in this sort of like you don't know how good you have it. And then for like a week um like wouldn't talk to me, wouldn't look at me, wouldn't tell me he loved me. like just really just really strange like things that at the time I didn't recognize for what they were because now I it was strange then it's not strange now um because I understand it more now. you talking about kind of being the defiant sibling of the one that I I think that's also very relatable of um >> having different childhood experiences with your parents than your siblings is >> weird cuz then when you get older you're like that's not how it happened and they're like no that's not how it >> or like mom and dad are like this or
25:29 this happened and it's like it's not even events it's like that's not who I grew up with >> oh how nice for you cuz that wasn't my reality >> um when you would be, you know, going back and challenging your father and be like, "No, I'm going to stand up for myself as at such a young age." I'm assuming though, when it got heightened to some capacity, I don't know. I don't want to speak for you, but like there could be moments you had to dissociate or go into survival mode cuz you're like, "Oh my god, this is okay." the face. You're like, "Girl, little do you know, >> what behaviors did you or you can now look back and recognize you started to lean into in these really heightened traumatic moments with your father?" I actually just wrote a song about this
26:16 um called Silver Screen Baby uh and about sort of my desperation to escape to Hollywood. Um, I had this like very like bullish sort of headstrong belief that like my home was not ever going to feel like home in the way that it felt like to the other girls that I went to school with. Um, because I'm going to be honest, just like to a slight delineation, but like my home was also magical. Like that's the weird thing about living with a parent who deals with, you know, um, struggles with their mental health. It's some days are really beautiful and some days some days are
27:03 weeks some days are long stretches of time and you're like oh and then you settle and then it's like you know upended again. Um so I don't ever want to make it seem like you know my childhood was um only one thing. It was also exceptionally beautiful and special and my parents were great parents in a lot of ways. Like my mom has always been the perfect mom. Like I'm so big on saying that. Um she just got saddled with a very difficult um like workload and situation which wasn't really her uh design. But but my dad also was exceptional. Like there's a reason that I have spoken so highly of him and written so many songs about him and and why I care so much about mental
27:50 health is because it is a it's not in your character. It's an affliction. >> It's it's something that there's a reason why we say people struggle with mental health. It's chemical. It's not a [ __ ] choice. And so like >> I you know I I look at my dad as the as the parts of him that were so so magical, right? Like the parts of him that Sorry, I fully came in today and I was like I'm not going to put fine. I um so much of who I am is my mom, right? So much of who I am, but so much of who I am and who I grow into now.
28:37 I look back and I retroactively realize was my dad. And sorry, it's like the the parts of him that I never got to meet as I got older, I get to meet them as I become them, which has been like a really profound experience, you know, because I remember all these things about him and as I get older, I see them coming out in my personality like on accident and I'm Oh my god. Like it feels like getting a sort of a piece of closure is is kind of like following a road map that that um has been leading me towards
29:25 really feeling like his daughter, you know, because I [ __ ] love him. He's so special and and it's such a shame to never get to know your parent fully. I think um what I think a lot of people are going to sit here and also cry with you as I'm crying because I have someone so close to me that has a very similar experience to you um in with a father and losing a father to bipolar and it's so complicated and as we talk about it all the time and our personal moments um and what I'm hearing from you which is so helpful cuz it's like oh this is a relatable feeling where it's like the highs are so high and that doesn't mean that they're not highs. Like and with a
30:10 parent, you need to hold on to those beautiful moments. Like we can sit here and of course it's like we're talking about the really hard moments in your childhood with this because we're not saying your father intentionally hurt you, but as a human being sitting in front of me, we would be remiss to not acknowledge that so much. Yeah, there was not intentional but it did form then who you are as a human being or your personality or your behaviors or what then you went on to accept and so you it's like we have to talk that through also to acknowledge who how strong you are but then >> right there's the moments where you now can look back at your father and be like but then there was this creative side to him and there was this like brilliance to him and so bipolar is really [ __ ]
30:59 confusing to the people around people like that because you see two different sides to someone and one day you'll wake up and think about the good side and then the other day you think about the bad side and that's really confusing cuz most people you're like this is who this person is. >> Yeah. >> And you can kind of be like in one sentence but with this you're like there was a lot going on. I also will very very earnestly say that the patterning that my brain found around like there's the person who does the thing and then the person who's there for cleanup >> that really [ __ ] me up in my dating life. >> I cannot imagine cuz you're learning at a young age because it's your blood and
31:44 your father to put up with and you're innately seeking love from your parent. Yeah. >> Who you are half of but then when you then are so used to something more also like so used to Yes. But also like the thing that I could not let go of in my 20s which is another thing that we are leaving behind. >> The list is long. Um, one thing that I [ __ ] couldn't let go of, I couldn't conceptualize was if my dad could do those things, but I know he loved me. Can I believe someone who can do those things to me in a romantic relationship who then tells me they love me? And they almost went hand in hand for me for a
32:30 long time. Um and you know, sometimes I look back and I blame myself for staying in those relationships. Sometimes I look back with great empathy and I say, "I couldn't have known better." >> Sometimes my empathy even extends as far enough to say that they couldn't have known better, but then I dial it back. >> You definitely could have known better, >> right? >> Yeah. Um I found myself in a lot of situations that accidentally mirrored um >> your father and your relationship >> completely. Did you ever have a moment in a relationship where it got to those moments of the most heightened where it was like scary where you then look at yourself and you're like, "Wait, how how am I putting myself in danger?" >> Oh, yeah. No, I'm also I wrote a song
33:15 about that also recently. Um, which I won't share right now because it's one of my favorite songs I've ever written and I just want to like keep it for the album. But that was actually one of the reasons that the one of my relationships that I was in ended was it it it came to a very very not physical not physical but a very very very very scary um moment that I was like I'm going to document this like I'm calling my mom right now. I'm calling all my friends. Like and it was but it was something it took it took me it took me up until that to be like okay wait this isn't love and it's your
34:01 threshold though Dub >> my threshold was high girl my threshold was crazy high and I also I also it's such a weird thing to try to explain to people who have never been in this position I loved that person I was in love I was I was in love and and it's hard to conceptualize like people who are like but how can you love someone who does those things to you and yes I would say now from a healed and healthy perspective I would agree I would I would also find it inconceivable >> but I was going to say but but I think what we also have to have empathy with ourselves and other humans when everyone's like why did you stay and why did you do this how would you know any better of what you deserve when within your own home there was a pattern and there was a procedure essentially that
34:47 you all knew when this was happening this is how you fall in line and then he'll apologize and then we go back to normal and then we try to pretend it didn't happen and then another moment happens and then we get through it. And so it was like this cyclical situation that you were going through that like that was your life and you just survived and lived so that when you get into a romantic relationship, how would it be if someone had boundaries and treated you right and was respectful, you'd be like, when is the other shoe going to drop? Because you had never seen anything >> like that in your life. And so then it takes you actually learning and and experiencing the world and talking to therapists and licensed people who actually are sitting there with you to be like, "Let me walk you through. This is not healthy. This is trauma." >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also like huge bouts of alone time. Like I I I had like
35:32 a 2-year dating romantic sabatical. Like I was like or sabatical. That's where we take time off. >> Hiatus. Yeah. >> Sorry. It's like not so sbatical. Um I just disappeared off the face of the planet. Like I there was a while where I was like, "Whoa, I'm broken." Like I'm a broken I I don't want anyone. I cuz I was just so disturbed. Like I was so disturbed by the places I had like gotten myself to and and what I had who I had chosen to love and who I loved. Like that's the thing is that it's complicated, right? And when you're speaking about these romantic relationships, I and how you had said, you know, you have such empathy for understandably your mother who you watched in this relationship.
36:19 >> I think about how hard it is to leave something that is especially when you have kids. >> Yes. Um and I know I I had read in an article you had said somewhere that before your parents got divorced, things were getting very real and very adult at home. What was the breaking point for your mom to get your family out? That's a really good question. Um, I think that I think that my sister went away to college and it was just me at home which like left them with 50% less distraction, you know. Um, I was really
37:05 depressed. Like, you know how sometimes there are those kids that go through like puberty and they're like, you're like, "Oh, god." Like, THAT WAS ME. I WAS LIKE, I didn't want to be awake during the night. So, I would like stay up all night. I was being homeschooled. I would like just watch movies. And hearkening back to the Hollywood thing, I was like, I I'm not supposed to be here. I'm supposed to be among people who are going to understand me. And like in my mind, my like 12-year-old mind, I was like, that's Hollywood. because these people clearly they have an understanding for emotion and I felt so close to these people in these movies who are making this music and it all was being done in this one big amorphous town. They're all there like I was like great [ __ ] get me there. Like I was like that's where I'm supposed to be. Um as a very childlike, you know, understanding of of the industry. Um,
37:53 and so I was doing this thing where I was not going to school and I was staying up all night to watch movies and because I was terrified of the nighttime because I was just like traumatized. I had a hairpin trigger for any things that go bump in the night and the house was in the woods and I was like I don't know. I'd always been a really anxious kid. I think ever since Haley died, I was just like very easily shaken. And my parents were just kind of alone in the house and they ran a business together and um I don't know there was there was clearly uh some form of adultery happening like where both of them were just kind of like done done. Um and so it was it was just
38:40 time like I don't know how they could have carried on honestly. And did you were you sitting in that house and feeling them both kind of doing their own things? >> Oh yeah. No. Yeah. They were just a terrible terrible match. Just like a decade of them slowly burning out. >> So you eventually get your dream. You are sitting there. You're watching these movies. You're dreaming about going to this land where everyone is and everyone's getting to act and perform and do all these things. And you've >> watched this growing up for so long. And then your parents get divorced and your mom and you go to LA. And I remember reading that uh you were going for auditions and Disney said that you came off as dark and offputting. >> That's still so funny.
39:26 >> Like girl, you are too dark for Disney. >> They were like, "Please stop." >> Smile. >> Yeah. No, they literally asked my agents to stop sending me. They were like, >> they were like, "She's it's never going to be her. Like, give it up." Um, but we came out and uh I was getting sent out on all this Disney stuff and I remember saying to my mom like, "I don't want to do Disney because I I felt like it was going to be a lifelong commitment." I felt like I had grown up watching the girls try so hard to like break away from it and be respected. And I knew even when I was like 13 or 14, I was like, "This is going to be hard." Like this is going to be something really hard. That sounds so ungrateful, but like this was something before I got the opportunity that I was like, I don't know. I don't know because I really
40:11 wanted to do >> um movies and TV shows that felt like more adult, but the for that age bracket like there were like, you know, you play the daughter of so and so or >> but it also makes sense and I get what you're saying. You're grateful, but you're also I this whole conversation we've been talking about how you've always felt older than your age and then >> that was the other thing. So you're like Disney like I I've I've been watching these movies and I'm seeing myself in this older light and then to do Disney and again Disney was established at this point right like remembering when Hannah Montana came out like that was that was new. Everyone didn't know that this could become this whole format. Hillary Duff, right? When you came into it, you had these people that you could look at and there was a blueprint
40:57 essentially laid out of like now we're watching these people try to grow out of this persona and it's >> stigma around it. There was a whole like like people would write articles about like so and so gets a tattoo to be a bad girl. And I was like I was like I'm already have a tattoo. Like I was like >> I was like [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] like this >> I've been around smoking. I have the tattoo. Like >> I was like yes. I was like, there's no part of me that is like sheltered, you know? And I also was like, I didn't think I could be funny at the time. Like I I perceived myself already as like too dark and too whatever for Disney. Everybody my life had been insane. Like I was just not I was not going to be the girl who came off like freshfaced off the the you know the uh the what is that like the >> the Greyhound bus being like here I am. Like it was not a charming story. I was like here because I was deeply
41:42 disturbed. Yeah. I was already deeply disturbed and so I was like they're never gonna pick me. Like [ __ ] >> Okay. They did. So Liv and Maddie then you get the show. >> Yeah. They called me and they were like nine months after we shot the original pilot they were like hey your show's getting picked up. I'll see you on Monday. Like but by the way you're playing twins. >> You're like cool. >> I was no I was like I was on the 405 or something. My and it was like they called from like an anonymous number which they always do. Like they call from this like no caller ID. >> Oh my god. like the Disney Pentagon. >> Literally. >> Yeah. And it was like my mom's cell phone at the time and it was like no caller ID and we were on the 405 and we were like, >> "Oh my god." You know, cuz we were like we were like we had my mom was melting down gold to pay for our rent like based on her own personal jewelry cuz she was
42:28 a jeweler, not cuz she had loads of gold. >> Um and so we were like, "Oh my god." It was like the call that changed our lives. Yeah. Um, and I took it and it was just such a beautiful experience. Like to hearken back to the thing where I sound like massively ungrateful, Disney was some of the most fun and joyful times of my life. Like I I had a great [ __ ] time on Disney Channel, which is why like you'll see me talking about it still cuz I'm not I know what it was. I know that that's not who I am. I know that it was like a thing that I did when I was a kid and when I was a teenager and it's something that like I look back on and I appreciate it for what it is. Like we recently rewatched all the Descendants films and I was like these [ __ ]
43:14 movies are so insane that like I can't believe they got away with it. Like like CGI Dragons and like it's like a it's like one long acid trip for kids. Like you know what I mean? Like I was I'm behind it. I love I think it's beautiful though that you're able to enjoy it because again I think maybe because of I don't know why like maybe like you said like seeing people in the comments and still remembering it. I think it's okay that like it's like that was a version of you and I think sometimes understandably we try to grow up quickly and we're like I don't want to be my younger version of myself but how beautiful that that was such a huge part in your life and don't forget like you just said that you and your mom on the 405 and you needed this job and it changed your life. >> Oh my god, Disney really like changed my
44:00 whole [ __ ] life and they supported me so much too. Like that was really the thing. I had great relationships in there. Like you know there was the there was the thing that like is very expected which is just like I came into Disney yes with a tattoo at 14 and I was you know swearing as much as I swear now and I was a full adult and I had all this trauma like full adult but like you know for that age. Yes. um and I had all this trauma and basically they were like in like the friendliest way possible they were like okay so um we love you not relatable and I was like >> right that's fair and I believe you and so like they did everything they could to make me more relatable like god bless them they were like they were like uh so we want to make like a music video and
44:46 have your best friend in it but like you know they wanted to make me more like I guess age appropriate um and so they did that um they were always very upfront about communicating about that and I was very team player with like when I would do interviews, you know, I would give the answer that you would give if you were talking to kids. Like that's really the thing that I think a lot of people get confused about with like who I was when I was on Disney and who I am now. They're like, there's a crazy contrast. And it's like, but no, because I walked into this contract being like, I'm on a children's network, >> right? You knew the formula. If I went on and did an interview for Tiger Beat or Teen Vogue and I was talking like how I do now where I'm like, "Fuck you." Like, that would be stupid and also inappropriate. Like, I'm 30 now. I can do it now. I could do it when I was 25
45:32 and forward. It's like I I am no longer on a children's network, even though they're syndicated forever. >> Of course. Of course. >> But it's like I think people think that it was like this crazy switch up when in fact I was just like a good employee. >> This is the job. >> This is the job. Yeah. Uh, it was never a lie. I'm just like not going to swear or be naked or like I remember the first time I posted a picture in a bikini and the like the internet lost their minds and I was like, "Okay, not yet." >> Yeah. They're like, "Never mind. >> We're not there yet. >> See you in 4 years. We'll try it again next year." >> Really? Which is why like it's funny because I still sometimes get asked about like, "How did you break out of your Disney role?" Or, "There she goes trying to break out of her Disney role." And I'm like I literally I actually I think I try super um I
46:19 wouldn't say super hard but like I I have no interest in bursting any sort of Disney bubble because I truly believe like that's over there and those shows and movies live on forever that's not me and I'm over here doing this and they don't really cross for me and so I don't have any like desire to burst any balloons or illusions. I also think like there I see so much like someone will bring up like a song that I've released and they'll be like that's Dove Cameron and I'm like great. So this these people are over here knowing this and these people are over here knowing this and that's okay. You've grown and you've evolved and you've changed. >> You have the version of me that that you want. Absolutely. That's for you. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Into It Turboax. Nobody likes to do taxes the old way.
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48:39 home. Did you have a relationship with your father when you moved to LA and got this role? That is a very good question and a very complicated answer. Um, my dad and I, so my parents had split, but not not for very long before we moved to LA. And we, my mom lived in like the tiniest apartment on Bainbridge and my dad still lived in our family home. And I wanted to go live with my mom in the new apartment because it was like really close to the ferry boat. And if I'm being honest, I could sneak out of the house and go see my friends. Like I was like sliding screen door. It was it was in like our little like town area, you know. >> Um,
49:25 >> so I was staying there a lot. Uh, and I think probably retroactively like my dad felt like I was taking my mom's side, but then my sister kind of came home from college cuz she was like, I don't love this college. I want to be home. Um, and there was a day where I was in my room at the family home asleep and I was 13, 12, 13, like right before I moved to LA. Um, and my dad wanted me and my sister to like come eat breakfast in bed and listen to the radio or watch a movie or something, which like we were a very cuddly household. like it was very like come down in your PJs and be half asleep and like I made eggs kind of thing. Um, and he was like, "Chlo, come down." Um,
50:13 and I was like, "No, I'm sleeping." You know, whatever 12-year-old answer you give. And he was like, "You can be sleepy. Just like come down and be sleepy down here cuz you're never here, so like come be with us." And I was like, "Okay." And I came downstairs and I got in the huge bed and I went to sleep and I got woken up because he had thrown me out of the bed. Um, and he was starting on some monologue about like, you're so ungrateful. You you don't even want to be here. You are trying everything you can to get away from me. Like, get out. Get out of the house. Um, and I think that was a really important moment for me because I had finally had it confirmed for me that
51:01 I was not the thing that was making my dad upset because when I was younger, I really really blamed myself for anytime my dad would get upset, it was my fault. That's what you naturally think as a kid. And in this situation, I was asleep, right? Um, I don't think I've ever told this story actually. I don't know. I can't remember. But, um, I it sounds like nothing, but for me it was a really big deal because it I was woken up literally by like hitting the floor and hearing all these things. And so, my brain was able to like through adrenaline process like I couldn't have done anything to cause this because I was asleep. He told me I could come down and be asleep. This is all happening in his brain.
51:48 And so I rather than leaving, I went upstairs to my room. I packed a little stupid bag of like any suitcase that I had. And I was like whatever 12-year-old language I had that was the equivalent of like actually [ __ ] you. And I went downstairs and I called my mom on my like $20 flip phone that I had because I went to theater camp and I had to like be I had to call them. I didn't have, you know, but I called her and I was out sitting on my suitcase and my dad came out and was like, "Wait, no, sorry, sorry." And I was like, "No, absolutely not." Like, "I'm cool on this. I'm good on this. I'm not going to be talked to like that." I I think I remember saying something to him that like I wish I didn't say but was like,
52:34 you know, like we're blood, we're family, but like I didn't choose to love you and like I choose to separate from you because this is not healthy for me. You don't do it to mom. You don't do it to Claire. And clearly I'm not doing anything to cause it. So like I'm not going to be your outlet. Um, and so I went to go live with my mom. And then when we finally I finally convinced her to move to LA, like the crazy, you know, 12 13 that I was, I was like, "You're not going to start over again. Like, you just got divorced. Like, you know, there's so many more job opportunities." And I love making [ __ ] up, right? I was like, "Please." >> Um, you know, we said goodbye. We were like, "We're just going to do this for 6
53:19 months and then we're going to come back." Like my dad was super concerned about he was like, "I'm really scared Hollywood's going to chew you up and spit you out." Like whatever idiom he used. And I was like, "No, Dad. I'm going to be fine." Uh, and then I started booking things. Um, and my dad came out to LA to visit because he had some like a trade show to do because they were wholesalers. And so he brought like all of his stuff out and he stayed on our floor because again, not really making any money. Um, and he stayed on like a blowup mattress and uh I remember I think I have spoken about this but I came out to be like like snuggle him and say good night. Um, and he like rolled over and turned his back
54:06 and was like, "Good night, Chlo. Like I I think you should go to bed." And I was like, "Something bad's going on there." But like I genuinely I thought it was my fault. like I genuinely just thought I had upset him by moving to LA. Like I didn't know what was happening or that he was like purposefully distancing himself in that way. Um so I went to bed and I tried my very best to like spend extra time with him and like lots of hugs, lots of kisses, lots of like you okay like kind of stuff. And um and then he went back to Washington and it couldn't have been that many months after that that we got the call that he had Yeah. taken his life.
54:54 Yeah. So it was a bit of a like a blurry weird time to say the least. I'm so sorry because even hearing from the bed incident to then you trying to connect with your father like there was so much clearly between the two of you how you're describing it never really happened to your mom and your sister where you really were >> putting out bids for connection with him >> and in moments he would take it in moments he wasn't capable right of taking it because of where he was at mentally >> um >> you were always in the same place mentally. >> Yeah. >> So, you were always waiting and it kind of was always on his timeline and it was >> That's true, right?
55:40 >> Yeah. I've never thought about it like that. >> Like, you were there always with waiting for your dad and sometimes he would show up. Oh my god, I'm going to cry now. And sometimes he wouldn't. And so to have that last moment with him where you really tried and then to get that call, I I can't even imagine who who did you get the call or did your mom? like how did you handle that? >> Um, thank you for that by the way because I actually very rarely have people be able to tell me something new that I haven't thought about. So that's really like really helps me put it into perspective. Thank you. Um cuz that's so the feeling, right? And it's like it's actually really hard to articulate that. Um so thank you. >> Um >> you were the constant. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Which is exhausting.
56:26 >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think like you you know that's something that I really like I'm really happy that I grew out of. Um but it still shows up for me thematically. So like you kind of synthesizing that for me so perfectly is going to help me be able to tackle that is like not always feeling like it's my job to be the constant. Um yeah it's a good one. Like the constant constant 2026 >> stop being the constant leaving it behind. >> Be inconsistent. >> No. >> Give them nothing. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> [ __ ] constant. Yeah. I don't know how to do that. Um >> no, but >> basic [ __ ] Yeah, dude. Bring it back. [ __ ] um we found out in in a really weird kind of layered way because um
57:14 again tight-knit community there was a woman who was like a kind of a like a lynch pin like a like a sort of a connection between um my mom and my dad who knew the whole family and she had messaged me on Facebook like that's how long ago this was and she was like she'd never messaged me before Right. Um, and she goes, "Hey, is your mom around?" And I was like, stomach sank. And I just knew. I can't tell you why I knew. Um, but it was not a normal interaction. She had no reason to be talking to me. I was, however, I was 15,
57:59 you know, um, at this point. And when I I responded like, "No, but she's going to be home soon." And she said, "Okay." And then it was like typing went away. Typing went away. And she was like, "Uh, please tell her to reach out to her brother or something like that." Like, "Please tell her to it wasn't called her that person. It was like someone in the family." And my my childhood best friend at the time, my other childhood best friend Carla was living with me. And we were like watching cartoons. And I was like, "Oh my god, I'm going to remember this moment forever." Is the moment that my dad died and we were in my bed laughing, watching cartoons. Um, and my mom came home and
58:46 she talked to her brother. Um, and she put him on speaker. Um, and he was really breathless and like sounded like, you know, he was running, but I'm sure he was just like having a panic attack. And he was like, um, I just went to the house. Um, I can't even remember what he said before he said the last bit, but Phil is no longer with us. Um, and I had a panic attack. Like I don't know like I I had a panic attack because I it's the most out of control feeling you
59:32 can have is like the phone call. Um, and actually all three of my big losses have come via phone call, you know, like which I guess is pretty standard cuz like what's you're going to have it happen in front of you, it's a different thing. Um, but I have like uh yeah, major phone anxiety I think because of stuff like this. Um, not to like get off topic, but I >> it's such a alien thing to learn about something so like there's a before this and then there's an after this over the phone and like what the [ __ ] is he going to tell us? Like what how is he going to phrase that in a way that like he can get through? And then my mom having to like look to me and
1:00:17 then my best friend who's there living with us looking to me and I'm looking at them and like I I think I ran out of the room. I think I like I couldn't breathe. Like my the brain just breaks. Like that's really the thing they don't tell you about trauma. actually like I think that's part of um like people people when they watch movies I think they get so accustomed to like oh when someone dies you're like oh my god they p you go into this like animal mode like you you are fight flight or freeze you feel like you're going to vomit your soul like I don't know how else to describe it it's it's like this horrible inexpressable fiery painful knifelike thing and you're
1:01:02 all you're trying to do is like purge it, purge it, purge it and it's impossible to purge. I um I think that feeling is again like something a lot of people are going to relate to because I think like yes, death is inevitable, but you've experienced such sudden and unexpected loss that I'm not saying one or the other is easier. It's just when something happens so unexpected, like there is the shock and grief that are warped and wrapped together and not having time to say goodbye and and >> oh my god, the worst. >> Oh, like you're you're riddled with like so many emotions that you don't even know which one to tap into. So then you're just like you just you're just
1:01:49 there. You're just there and you're existing and it's a horrible feeling in the days and and weeks. Um, after you got this news, what do you think for you was the hardest thing to wrap your head around? Um, honestly, the way it happened like cuz he took his own life and um I I wanted like I kept imagining because no one would tell me how he did it. Like I know that's really morbid, but I I think I wanted to know. I needed to know. and and then it was worse when I knew and and they were right, but like I wouldn't I would have I was torturing myself like trying to imagine and and like I think
1:02:34 honestly and I'm going to honestly try to stop crying because it's like it's a lot. Um, but but I think honestly like the thing that still plagues me, like the thing that I'm still like cuz I can mostly for the most part talk about my life with a sort of a distance at this point. Like I can be like this is what happened. This is how old I was. This is how I processed it. This is the good things that came out of it. This is how it evolved me in this way. This is what I can be grateful for. Whatever. Like I have enough distance. And also the body and the brain just shut down. Like I don't know if anybody who's listening to this can attest or relate to the fact that like the body does not want to process everything at once. And so sometimes like your emotions the valves just don't feel like they're on. So like I can talk
1:03:20 about this like it happened to someone else. Um, but sometimes the thing that like like I really wake up in the middle of the night like a like catch my breath kind of thing is is just imagining like his final moments alone where he was like do I do it or not, you know, and like the he didn't leave a note, you know, like what's that thought process like? or like you know did he think like if someone had called if you know it's that kind of thing where you're just like could it could it have been different and and what did that feel like for him and and did he know how loved he was?
1:04:07 Did he feel loved? Was he was he mentally there? Like dude, it's [ __ ] it's [ __ ] dude. It's it's really [ __ ] And I joke about my trauma because it's like what else are you going to do? But like, oh god, it's really the thing that like it's really the thing that it really brings you back to to earth and to what matters and like it puts everything into perspective cuz I am so marked by death and I'm so marked by loss. And there's a big part of that that I really appreciate cuz I I feel closer to the people that I love and and I love differently and I I live my life
1:04:53 differently and I I'm not so scared about things that I might be scared about had I not had like the you know the comparison of the Mount Everest of loss, right? Like I um there's beautiful things that come out of everything. Does that mean that I wouldn't change them or take them all back? Like no. I would much rather have these things had not happened, like have had these things not happen. Um, but but I I do think that like, you know, part of the things that I really love about myself and my life now are marked by just the sort of deepening that happens with grief and like the level of fascination and love and appreciation and bonding that I have
1:05:39 with humans in general. Like I think it's given me a kind of a a comfortability with with strangers and with people that I truly don't know or have no context of. Like I think that there's a certain like veil that drops when you realize how deep how deeply humans can feel pain. like to to know that there is someone that you look at like a hero or or a complex character and and someone that you love and you worship. The fact that they can be so sad and so lonely and so empty that they make the you know the ultimate decision is is something that
1:06:25 it just everybody's so fragile and I really walk around the world feeling that way. Right. I agree. And I also think that's why like even speaking you to you right now, it's like why I'm so appreciative of my job is like I get to sit with people like you who I only have had at one point the privilege of watching on TV or listening to your music and you can get >> so much from it and and we're going to get to all of it in the new show and all of it. But what I think makes you then feel more connected to those people, especially with the internet now, is like when people do have the strength to share these kind of things. This isn't easy. Like we're not like
1:07:12 sitting here and it's like, oh, this is let's just tell this story so people can get to know you better. It's like I'm also crying cuz I'm like this is bringing up stuff for me, right? And it's like we're all so connected when
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