Can Sri Lanka Trust India? | The Rise of India | President Lanka-India Business (LIBA)

0:00 Hi guys, our guest today is the president of the India-Sri Lanka Business Association. He's also an entrepreneur. And Santosh Menon, welcome to From the Island. Thanks, Shanil and thanks Anush. Santosh, you have been living in Sri Lanka for as long as the two of us have been alive. So that does make me feel quite well. So why don't you start off by telling us maybe how you got here? and where you started off? Well, I got here reluctantly, to be honest. And I'm now living here happily. So I think there is a nice contradiction to that statement, but there's a lot big story around that. But first, let me also say we are Lanka India Business Association. So I always say

0:48 we put Lanka first. So it's Lanka India Business Association. So that's what Niba is. But as well as my story is concerned, you know, I came here because the ad agency I worked for asked me to come here to manage an advertising account and I said to them well why Sri Lanka? Because you know while I was in Mumbai Sri Lanka seemed like a little small place beyond the south of India and I was not too sure whether I wanted to come here but the agency then which was a multinational said to me well if you crack Sri Lanka we'll send you to Southeast Asia. Okay. And that sounded like a good deal and I said well then I'm on. Okay. So I came here. I spent two and a half years here in Sri Lanka and

1:38 I did what I was supposed to do. And true to their word, the agency called me and said, you've done all you're supposed to do. So we move you to Indonesia, to Jakarta. And I thought at that time to myself, well, great, this is exactly what I wanted to do. And I moved to Indonesia as a managing director of FCB in Jakarta. FCB is... is football and building at that time. Yes, the ad agency, American ad agency. And... to cut a very long story short, I realized that while I... from my rational mindset, I'd cracked it and I'd done what I needed to do. I'd left my heart behind in Sri Lanka. So I really wanted to get back to Sri Lanka and, you know, sometimes these things just manifest in interesting ways. My client Fonterra at

2:27 that time in... You know, two and a half years later, 2008 called me and said, do you want to back in Sri Lanka? I said, wow. No, I was so delighted to be back here. So one thing led to another. I came back in 2008 and I have been here ever since. So 2008. Yeah, exactly. So what was it about Sri Lanka that kind of drew you towards this place? I think the air, the nature, the beautiful country, lovely people. It's just a wonderful, wonderful country to be in and I feel blessed to be here, to be honest. Okay. Were there a lot of differences from where you worked in India before you moved here? Yeah, yeah. Specifically Mumbai? Yeah, exactly. I mean, obviously, I think it's chop and cheese. Mumbai is busy. Mumbai is high

3:16 energy. Mumbai is, you know, it's all about professional speed. Yes. All of that in size and scale and competition. Sri Lanka is very different. Obviously, Sri Lanka is smaller. But I have to say, when I came in 2004 and managed Fonterra, Fonterra was one of the largest advertising accounts in Sri Lanka. And they were very, very demanding. So I did really feel that, you know, I was coming into something less important. Yes. Right. Because Fonterra had its own challenges and we had gone many, many challenges and achieved them. So I felt professionally very fulfilled managing the Fonterra brand and the brands for Fonterra in Sri Lanka.

4:02 Interesting. And how did you become the president of the Sri Lanka, India? Yeah, Lanka, India Business Association. Well, that is a relatively new thing that happened. You know, I always say to people now that... My passport is Indian, but my heart is Sri Lankan. But equally, I also feel that, you know, you can take an Indian out of India, but you can't take an India out of an Indian. So to that extent, you know, I feel that I'm kind of like a bridge between Sri Lanka and India. And I felt after spending so many years in Sri Lanka that the India that I left is very different from the India of today. And that there's a huge opportunity that India provides

4:48 from an economic perspective. which many Sri Lankans still don't really truly appreciate. So we created Lanka India Business Association primarily with the intent of seeing how we can facilitate the entry of Sri Lankan businesses into India. Why do you think that's important for us though? Like for, from a Sri Lankan perspective, why does it even matter for us to kind of explore that path? Well, because you know, Sri Lanka has a lot of beautiful things, which I love. But one thing Sri Lanka needs is money from an economic perspective. India kind of still needs to do a lot of things with many other areas. But one thing India is having a lot now is money. And you know, and I think there

5:34 is a complementarity there. And I think Sri Lanka is so close to India geographically. And you know, why wouldn't you exploit India's economic plot? Why wouldn't you exploit India's economic dividend? If any country can help Sri Lanka get out of this economic situation, it's India. And I think if any country provides a business opportunity for businessmen in Sri Lanka, it's India. So I feel that this is where Sri Lankans need to exploit India and make sure that you, you know, ride on the economic dividend that India is currently going through. Interesting that you used the word exploit. Exactly. And it's a very conscious word. You know, and I'll tell you why it's conscious. I have been in Sri Lanka long enough to know that

6:20 the word integrate is a very dangerous word to use. And I don't see integration. I see it as exploitation because what I mean by that is Sri Lanka is a separate country, distinct, unique in many, many ways, and it should always be so. What we need to do is to make sure that you make best use of the economic opportunity that India provides. Which is what exactly if you were to put that in. Well, I think, you know, let's put the, let's face the reality. The UK recently signed an FTA with India. As we speak, there are many countries standing in line to have an agreement, financial, you know, a trade agreement with India, which benefits them. But the first FTA that India signed was in 2000

7:12 with Sri Lanka. Right. Yeah. And that it hasn't gone beyond that agreement. And that's a question one really needs to ask. Why is it that an agreement which is 25 years old has not been renewed, has not been energized, something beyond what we did 20 years ago, why has that not happened? That's really the million dollar question or rather billion dollar question because that's probably the size of the trade that happened between the two countries. I mean, so we'd like to definitely touch upon the trade deals and what exactly the trade situation looks like. Before we jump into that, basically what you mentioned was India back then, let's say 10 years from today, was very different to the India today. And I'm half Indian. So when I

7:59 lived in India, I think this was 15 years ago. I lived there for eight years or seven years. It's a very different place. I totally agree. The India of today largely, I guess, due to the political forces that came into being, have changed the trajectory and I guess accelerated the growth using policies. I don't know what your take is on that. Having said that, since India is growing so fast, why do you think from your knowledge and experience here, Sri Lanka has not jumped on that bandwagon? The honest fact is, and I say this in every conversation I have, there's a lot of baggage in Sri Lanka about India. I mean, right. You feel it's justified?

8:47 It's not for me to judge. What I would say is this is the reality of what it is. It is what it is. I mean, your textbooks talk about the Chola invasions from India, which threatened Buddhism. You know, aunties and uncles will talk about India and in various interesting ways. Yeah. You know, yeah. People are skeptical of India is what you're trying to say. Yeah, I mean, skeptical, partly resentful. Right. You know, all of the, all of the stories related to the terrorism and Sri Lanka and all of that and the Paripu drop stories of Rajiv Gandhi and all of that. And so there is, there is that. And then I think there's also this overwhelming feeling that there's this massive country in our neighborhood It could swallow us if it wants in a second. Whether it's

9:37 justified or not justified, it is what it is. Yeah. We can't change our neighbor. Sorry? We can't change our neighbors. Exactly. In reality, maybe at some point, there would have been reasons to feel that way. But right now, I don't think there are reasons to feel that way. And I think young people who are Sri Lankan, young people, like you said, people such as yourself, do realize that there's this amazing opportunity and you know, people who are on social media, people who are on the internet, people who are seeing that amazing growth happening, look at India differently and I think they should. And I think this is the time for young Sri Lanka to really engage with India and change their personal fortunes

10:22 and change the fortunes of this country. Right, yeah, okay. That makes sense. I mean, if again, I mean, go back to the geopolitical stuff you were talking about, but I want to quickly touch on the Lanka India Business Association. Could you just quickly maybe tell us what kind of role does that association play here in terms of, okay, you're talking about all this opportunity in India that Sri Lankans should exploit. What is the role that Lanka India Business Association plays there and how does that kind of, how could that be relevant to people maybe watching this right now who have businesses and want to maybe, you know, get into that? So I think they're a young association. Okay. They're actually only six months old. Right. So we are yet to play a significant role. We would want it to play a significant role. My intent with Lanka India Business Association is that, you know, there

11:11 are many Sri Lankan businesses, friends I have who are in business. And when I ask them, why aren't you considering India? They normally tell me five reasons. Thank you. One is we don't know where to start. Okay. It's a big black box. You Indians are too aggressive and abrasive. I don't know whether we can ever compete and win in India. Then they also say people have burned their fingers in India before, Sri Lankan companies. And I think I hear some people in trade saying that there are many barriers to getting into India and therefore success in India is extremely difficult. So we don't know whether we want to really go into India. These are the five. Those are the correct perceptions that they have. Well, I think, you know, I

11:57 know recently I met somebody who heads the export division of Sri Lanka and he said, the ambassador, the high commissioner of India sat him down and asked him, so tell me what the trade barriers are. And he says, I couldn't for the world of me figure out what those trade barriers are. So I couldn't really explain to him. So which means some of those things may be more myth than reality. Okay. You know, but I also think that, you know, The fact is that when you look at India, you should not look at India as one economic entity. Even Indians don't look at India as one economic entity. So very often Sri Lovkans say, so what can I do to become

12:42 big in India? I said, no, you need to think about it differently. Think about it as, is there an opportunity in Kerala? Is there an opportunity in Tamil Nadu? Is there an opportunity in Karnataka? Is there an opportunity in Andhra Pradesh? Right. Depending on the kind of product you have and the kind of category you're in and the kind of services you offer, if you think you're really good, then you need to look at India as 36 economic entities. Yeah. And then try to figure out where is it that you fit. The states and the union territories. Exactly. And then the conversation is very different. So what is it that we as LEBA would want to do? We have an advisory team sitting in Mumbai. Okay. Who would advise a Sri Lankan entity based on your product and services as to where the best fit in India is. Regardless of their size. They can be a startup.

13:29 They can be an enterprise. It can be... You know, my view is, yes, you're right. It can be anybody. But I think if you already have a product with customers and you kind of really had a success story in Sri Lankan, then the chances of you being able to do that in India and replicate that in India, right? It's better. I mean, because you've already gone through a process of making a successful business work. Obviously, it's tougher if you're completely a novice because then you have to start afresh and learn in India, which is obviously the learning curve would be much higher and steeper. But the advisory service offers you everything starting from advice related to which market or which state in India to target to... what kind of partners should you look for to, you know, the taxation process, the,

14:20 you know, how do you operate in India? All of those pieces of advice one would give you. But at the end of the day, as a businessman, you have to go out there and make that business work. I mean, a very, very well-known politician in Sri Lanka, very bright spark politician told me once that many years ago, He went to the Indian High Commission, went through the yellow pages and figured out that for his business, these are the five, six names that he needs to contact. Then he flew down to Mumbai, stayed in a not so good hotel, made a call to these five people. One of them actually picked up the phone. Interesting. And he actually told them, I'm so-and-so from Sri Lanka and I want to look at collaborations. And that person said, yeah, when

15:08 I come to Sri Lanka, I'll talk to you. He said, no, no, I'm in Mumbai right now. So the guy was so impressed, he sent him a car. This guy went, Shulankan gentleman, politician, very well known. Went to... I can guess who would be. Went to this person. Went to this person. They sat together. They agreed on a business agreement. He came back. They set up the company. And he says, a few months later, that Indian businessman called him and said, you guess what? An American company wants to buy us off. I'm going to sell you a portion as well. And he says... Really? And he said, okay. So he said, come down to Mumbai and we'll have a conversation. So our friend went with a certain amount in mind and the Indian corporate said, don't worry, we'll get your matri.

15:56 And apparently he sold his stake to the American company for a significantly larger amount. And he says, that's how he started his political career. So I'm just telling you, there is something called business zeal. if you really want to make something happen, if you have that zine, you don't even need a liba. But then now we have a liba. Right. What kind of mentality are you seeing from people that might, I mean, I know it's very new, you're established in 2025. Yes. But I'm assuming you'll have worked with a couple of businesses already that are interested? Yeah, we've had conversations. You know, let me put it this way, it's been more difficult than I assumed it would be. Right. But it's okay. I think, you know, we made a start. I'm waiting for that one or two businesses which really use our

16:44 services. Do you feel like there's a big bottleneck in terms of like that skepticism that comes with like Lankan entrepreneurs about moving to India? Is that a big bottleneck? Is that the main bottleneck? Yes, I think so. I think people are, I wouldn't use the word skeptical, I would say nervous and not sure. See, ultimately, there's a big difference in the size of India. Even a state like Kerala is 33 million population. The kind of investments you need to make there are significant. You know, I wouldn't be too harsh on Shilakran business, man. But I think this is not going to be something that's going to be built overnight. Absolutely. I think this is

17:31 something that's going to take some time. I'm just waiting for... the time when we are able to showcase one or two success stories. Because in my view, if there are one or two success stories, even if it takes a couple of years, then the floodgates will open. I don't think Levi is something which I see will work in six months or nine months. It's something that we'll have to slowly chipping away at. And then over a period of time, we'll be able to create some success stories. And once the success stories are there, I think, then I think the whole thing will kind of explode. It's great. I mean, it's amazing what they're doing, really. We don't need to know how that. Desperately. But Lieber does it the other way around as well. It's for Indians who want to come to invest in Sri Lanka too. Yes. Right. So have you kind of found

18:18 that Indians are very interested to come here? See, I'll tell you what. Indians, I just read a statistic which said that in the last three years, Indians have invested 60 million US dollars globally. Okay. Wow. That's a significant amount. Which means that, you know, Indians now, given the fact that they are tasting success within India, are also looking at trying to see what we can do out of India. Right. Yeah. And so because of the fact that Indians are gung-ho and there are many Indian businesses making use of the Indian dividend, are now starting to look at how we can go beyond India to make And

19:03 you're saying that they are looking at Sri Lanka as like a potential... What are they saying? They are looking at investment opportunities. I don't know whether enough of them are really looking at Sri Lanka as an option. Right. And I think that's something that needs to change. We need to be able to put out a compelling story of why Sri Lanka. So why is it that they might maybe be hesitant? Do they not see enough of a return? Because now macroeconomic headwinds are kind of... Sri Lanka has stabilized to some extent. I would think like this might be a good time to buy up underpriced assets and kind of like get into the market at a cheap, you know, a cheap position now. Is that not how they view it? Am I viewing it wrong? I don't know what those assets are.

19:53 Okay. I mean, I don't know. I mean, you tell me. You tell me what is it that Indians should invest in in Sri Lanka. In my view... Hotels, for example, like beach properties in Sri Lanka are still relatively underpriced compared to regional beach properties. Yeah, I think there is a conversation going on. I know tourism ministry would like that investment to come in from India. But I can't, I don't know any specific ones which exist, which are looking to sell, which offer a meaningful investment. So we need to get into the stress fix, you see. So at the end of the day, I think... It's one thing to have a context, a conversation about, yes, it should happen. Absolutely. But it's another thing to actually say, so what is it specifically? Yeah.

20:40 You know, so I don't know. Also, remember the world is the oyster. Yeah. So I know Indians are investing in Singapore, Indians are investing in Dubai, Indians are investing in the UK even. Indians are investing in Mauritius. So if there is a competitive context, then we need to be clear about What is it that Sri Lanka offers Indian investors, which is better and gives better ROI and gives better prospects compared to things that other countries offer? So as president of LIBA, what would you say to Indian businesses that might actually be looking, they're kind of intrigued by Sri Lanka, they're not really sure. What kind of pitch is there in your opinion to give

21:28 them? about Sri Lanka? Yeah, I think, I think, there are some things happening in Sri Lanka. Okay. Sri Lanka has been at rock bottom a couple of years ago. So everything from here on has to be upwards. So like you did say, this is a country, I mean, there are many things that, you know, let me put it this way. I would say that there are some steps that need to be taken for that investment to actually fructify. From a policy perspective, I think there is a genuine need for a revised FTA, whether you call it a PPCA, whether you call it a new FTA, whatever you

22:13 want to call it. But I think you need to have a better opportunity provided for Indian businesses to see the bigger opportunity in Sri Lanka as much as, as well as for Sri Lankan businesses to get access to India. So my view is the first thing that needs to be broken is the policy deadlock. Why is, why is Sri Lanka not showing hunger? Yeah. In going out there and saying India is an opportunity. Let's do this big economic deal, which can actually open up both ways for, of course, there is a, there is a fear within Sri Lanka that Indian labor will flood in. Like a big fear, right? Yeah. And I think, you know, these are all things that can be handled. You don't need to allow Indians to come in lock, stock and barrel. Sure. I'm sure we can negotiate a deal in

23:02 such a way that whoever comes in, comes in on a deed-based project. Like most countries do, right? Yeah, absolutely. The point is, my bigger question is, why is the hunger for the deal not there? That's a good question. Yeah, and I think the hunger for the deal, if you believe that India is a growing market, And if you believe that India has investors and if you believe that India can come here and Indians can come here and make significant investments and grow the economy, somebody here needs to take the bull by the horns and go out there and say, let's do this deal. Somebody, but who? Exactly. The question. Yeah, exactly. So I think it's up to the state, up to the government in place, up to

23:50 people in the know needs to take the initiative and initiate a process of attracting investment. I mean, in Sri Lanka, we have a far left parties and a far right parties who are very, very skeptical of India, right? And they definitely use India as a useful political narrative tool to get votes, especially from the more older generations in Sri Lanka. I want to maybe straw man you a little bit, Santosh, and say, okay, Do you feel like there is any legitimacy to the skepticism that many people might have towards getting economically, I know you don't want to use the word integrated, but to get economically,

24:35 they argue that we would become economically dependent, especially due to the proximity. And economic dependency at the end of the day may turn you into a vassal state. And India is going to be a great power. 20, 30 years from now, it might be the third largest economy. Yeah. I believe it overtook Japan this year. And once you do become a great power, you end up wanting to take over your backyard. At least you want control and influence. Um, in that sense, am I thinking too far and thinking maybe too, Skeptically about India being a great power and how Sri Lanka being a small, poorer country, we would have a more leverage to deal with India. And I don't see the

25:24 Indian government coming and, you know, doing things for Sri Lanka out of the goodness of their heart. They will do things for your own national interest. Yeah, I mean, that's the reality is everyone does stuff for their national interest. But, you know, I'll give you a different perspective. I met the previous ambassador of Canada. who said to me that there are two countries which are great case studies of smaller countries which have benefited a great deal with economic relationships with larger countries. And he said two cases in point are Canada and New Zealand. Okay. He said the way Canada has exploited the American dividend to ensure that they are economically in a good space and the way New Zealand has

26:14 actually exploited their relationship with Australia in such a manner that they remain distinct, but equally benefit from the fact that they've got a larger neighbor, are great case studies for how Sri Lanka can do the same with India. In fact, somebody I know who is in Sri Lanka says very often, it's up to Sri Lanka whether you want to be a Canada, whether you want to be a Mexico. Okay. Mexico apparently is... you know, prevented this, you know, that relationship with America from happening. So, I know he also tells me that he's hated in Sri Lanka for saying that. But the fact is, these are all things that one needs to think about. And I think these are all, there are examples of countries with large neighbors in

27:04 their neighborhood who've exploited those neighbors well enough them to although santosh at the end of the day canada for example canada cannot make their own let's say own sovereign decisions really i mean the u.s controls the western hemisphere especially north america right so canada is woefully dependent on the u.s market so i guess that's where my point comes in of you become extremely dependent on one particular market and nation so Sri Lanka needing to plug into different markets. I guess that's where my personal concern comes in for Sri Lanka. Sure. That if we don't plug

27:51 and play in the next 20, 30 years, that, you know, great power is good. If that's the case, then plug and play. Fair enough. But where does the plugging and playing happen? It is my question. Exactly. At the end of the day, see, you know, The point also is that you need to be clear what is it that you have to offer for another country to be interested in having an economic relationship with them. Absolutely. And I think you're right. There is an interest that India would have in ensuring that there is a strong economic relationship with Sri Lanka because Sri Lanka being in its immediate neighborhood can create

28:36 you know, there could be problems, especially from a security perspective. Absolutely, yeah. So to that extent, India has an interest. Yeah. But who else would have an interest in having a relationship with Sri Lanka? No one as much as India, for sure. An immediate member, yeah. Exactly. Perhaps China to contain India. China, yes. I mean, yes. And one has to be careful about playing that game, you know, because at the end of the day, the geopolitics, you know, is... He's a fireman. And you've got to be careful how you play that game. And I think, yes, there could be an interest that China has. And I think China has and China is invested. And let's face it, China is a large economy. And I think it's not only that China has a relationship, economic relationship with Shulunga. China has an economic relationship with India as

29:24 well. From what I understand in the recent past, a lot of bilateral trade has been happening between India and China. And that is a fact that that country is... is a significant economic power. Are you concerned or what are your feelings towards China's influence here and the India-China Cold War battle for Sri Lanka? Yeah, I mean, it's delicate. I think enough has been said by the Sri Lankan government about how all security concerns of India will be kept in mind before taking any decision. And I think that that's a very wise and good thing to do. Sure, but there are words, right, Santosh? Words coming from the government. No, I think it's not just words. I

30:11 think the India-Srilanka relationship is at its best ever than it's ever been. At this current moment with the new government? I think new government, old government, I think in the last 10 years, 5, 7, 10 years, the Sri Lankan-Indian relationship has been at its best ever. And you have to grant it that the political establishment has, I mean, fact is that I think the economic crisis that Sri Lanka faced and the way India responded with the speed and scale has definitely demonstrated an intent within India to respond as first responder every time Sri Lanka needs

30:57 help. Even now with the cyclone Dittwa, the response has been fast, And the response has been huge in terms of scale. And I think, see, at the end of the day, people of the country have to see that and have to feel that. And I think genuinely people of this country are seeing that. I totally agree. There's a big change in what's the sentiment? The sentiment. So, you know, recently a friend of mine, and I put this post up on Facebook. I don't know if my sinhala is right, but... when Indian rescuers went to help Sri Lankans who were in trouble, many people have actually used a word called Pindanwa. Okay. So what I understand from one of my

31:43 colleagues who translated it for me is that when you say thank you, you say Bhangustati. But when you actually give somebody, say to somebody Pindanwa, then it actually means may the merits of the Buddha be upon you in such a way that even if you do some sin in the future, the merits are such that you will not suffer the sin. I see. And so from what I understand, many Sri Lankans have actually said, pin Denula to, you know, many of the Indian soldiers who have actually gone out on the ground and helped them. And to me, that's a humongous sentiment coming from a Buddhist nation. Absolutely. Using a term like that means that there is a, there is a, There is a change. There is a movement. There is a feeling of connection, which

32:31 perhaps may not have existed before. And I do feel that these are the things that you have to take forward. Absolutely. And I think also in the economic crisis, our then High Commissioner Gopal Bangla said the time for calling ourselves a bigger brother and smaller brother and all is over. You have to understand that we are civilizational twins, which means no one is bigger or smaller. And I think Ropal Bhagali articulated beautifully when he said, we are from the same womb. So if one is in trouble, the other will respond. Right. And I think all of these statements and all of these actions mean that the country is growing closer together in terms of relationship while being distinct entities. Yeah. And we'll always be distinct entities. Hopefully.

33:17 No, no, forever. There is no doubt about it. There is no hopefully there. I think the country, there is no ambition within India to I mean we have too many states to worry about. So I don't think anyone in India has any ambition to kind of you know take over another country that's not and India has not done that ever. You know, ever India is cheap. That's never happened. I mean if you might argue a country like a place like Sikkim but then Sikkim you know, historically has had been closed. No, absolutely. I think, you know, so. Of course. Yeah. Um, although I would add that India didn't have the capacity to do so earlier on, but they definitely

34:06 have the capacity to, uh, increase their influence, right. Using the money and using the military power. Um, so there's that part of things. We're supposed to be skeptical, but shouldn't limit us. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's a trade-off. It's a choice you have. Either you choose to embrace the large neighbor who now has a great economy. Or you choose to stay back and say, hey, you know, we're going to stay separate. But then, what are the costs and what are the issues to do with that? Especially with a country like ours that needs that kind of... And I think you need to do that sensibly. Yeah. I think... I think Sri Lankan politicians hopefully and the people in power will always know

34:53 how far is, you know, how close is too close. Exactly. They will know that. I hope so. Yeah, I think so. And I think you can't let the skepticism of your mind prevent the coming together of hearts. Absolutely. I talked to everybody, right? It's very nice. This came to me. That's awesome. And we would like to see Sri Lanka with free movement of people, you know, coming and starting businesses here. Yeah, I mean, maybe we can come a little bit out of the macroeconomic part of things. I kind of want to maybe pick your brain on I mean, you've worked in India, you've seen that market, you're currently running a marketing company as well, right? Advertising.

35:39 Is that primarily servicing Lankan markets or globally in general? Is it primarily Lankan markets? No, there were times when we've done work for clients in Ethiopia, but they're basically... Ethiopia. Yeah, Ethiopia. We did some work for Fonterra. We launched Anchor and Fonterra for Fonterra. We launched a brand called... You know, we launched a brand in Mauritius where I had a person from Sri Lanka who's in my team who sat in Port Louis and managed the work for Mauritius Commercial Bank. Okay. And we did all the work out of here. So, it was Sri Lankan work, Sri Lankan work, but done for Mauritius. So, when you say work, you're in marketing, are you in the digital side of things? So, we are in the advertising communication, which includes everything, which includes ads, print,

36:29 PR, all of that. PR, we've done PR work as well for some brands and digital, which manages social media and all of that. But our core competence is advertising creative. Okay. Okay. Got it. So, I mean, just, I just brought it up because I am curious about the service based industry in India. Is there a lot of potential if I was to make a, if my question was to be, what do you think has more potential? service-based businesses or product-based businesses. So since we're talking about LIDA as well, and what kind of potential companies could go into India from Sri Lanka. Do you see a big demand for service-based kind of products, let's say? Like agencies, marketing agencies, recruitment, that kind of service-based businesses, as opposed to like

37:14 an FMCG brand or like some sort of retailer or some sorts going into India. Do you see that? Would you give that kind of advice to either of them saying, okay, this has more potential here? To be honest, I don't currently have the data to make that analysis. I don't have it. So I don't want to wager a bit. I think, you know, from a Sri Lankan perspective, I can go say, or from a large global perspective, I can go say that, you know, one of the things tech products, Is that they are universal? If you have a tech solution which actually has traction and that would definitely and I would say that's borderless.

38:00 In fact, yesterday I must say I was at an event where a gentleman made a presentation on AI and he said the leading countries which are driving AI are the US, China, India, Europe and Singapore. And he had a label for the kind of things that those AIs represented. He said the American AI is more techno-liberal. The Chinese model is techno-authoritarian. He called the Indian model digital democracy. And he called the European model ethical AI. I can't remember what he calls Singapore. Maybe it was too small for me to really consider. But I

38:46 found the distinction very interesting because what he's referring to for the Indian model with digital democracy is the UPI and some of those very democratic methods which are actually opening up everything. And I found the characterization of Chinese model as being techno-authoritarian as interesting. But he explained that Chinese model is using AI to control and manage power. Right. Whereas the Indian model seems to be more about disseminating power too. And I found that distinction rather flattering because, and this was a Sri Lanka gentleman who was presenting, so it was not an Indian gentleman who was trying to flatter himself. Yeah. So, but coming back to your point, why did I raise this point about AI? Because AI is the way

39:34 forward for many things. And... And I think AI is in a space where Sri Lankans have solutions in the AI space. I'm sure India as a market would be there for them as well. Because India is a big investment which recently happened, which has been announced by Google. A $17 billion investment. Google is making for data centers in WISAC. $17 billion. That's a big FDI. That's a big one. Oh, that's very interesting. I mean, it is tough though. I mean, I work in recruitment. So I see the motor tech companies coming from India, moving into the US. So they're definitely on that route of domination. So I'm just thinking, I mean, considering that the

40:21 proportion of competitiveness we also can bring from Sri Lanka, I would say it's a big gap there. So, yeah, it's an interesting point. So that's a good segue into, I want to discuss India's economy. Let's dive into that. So you brought up UPI. For those who don't know, that's a universal payment interface, correct? So that's a digital payment system. And if you go anywhere in India, even to like the little kudis, the little small shops like we get here. Unified payment interface. Unified, right? Is it universal or unified? I think it's unified. So UPI, you would go to like a little vegetable store and everyone's paying. Everyone is paying. You know what I do? I'm the first one to do a UPI transaction in Sri Lanka. In Sri Lanka. I saw that. Narendra Modi, I saw the video. He's all there watching him.

41:11 I did the first. In a little shop, right? You went to like... No, no, I was in the Dodge. And the Daz, right? The first swipe happened in the Dodge. Yes. So in India, if you go to like the little roadside, Khandis, You're paying the roadside card with, on your phone, on a digital... No, I would go beyond that to say, sorry, I'm standing here absolutely right. But just to enhance and endorse this point further, I was in Rajasthan and there was this old lady selling coconuts on the street. And one coconut had a UPI QR code. I have heard, though I haven't witnessed, that nowadays beggars come with aluminium cans with the UPI

41:58 You are poor. So they come and say, money creates them and you just... So I think people in India don't carry cash anymore. Yeah. Is that like across India or in... Across India. In fact, that's a huge revolution. I think the largest digital transactions in the world are now happening in India and not in China. Yeah. There's 10 billion transactions on UPI. Trillion something. Trillion something. Yeah. Just check that now. number of UPI transactions is by far the largest digital transactions in the world. Oh, that's interesting. That's very interesting. So, yeah, so basically, so that's UPI, but that's one very small part of the kind

42:43 of revolution that's taking place in India, right? There's over 20 billion monthly transactions. Monthly? Yeah, so imagine that. Imagine that. Yeah. Am I mistaken? Does this have to do with everything that happened post demonetization in India? Yes. I think combination of a few things. Pandemic. Okay. Then demonetization. Okay. I don't know which order that was in, to be honest. I think the demonetization was first. That was 2018, I believe. Yeah, I think. And then pandemic afterwards. I think pandemic was a big driver. And then a company called Paytm, which... You know, which basically did a big campaign about which actually in Hindi said, Paytm Karo means you don't need anything else. Basically, the advantage you have is it was also

43:31 UPI is also free. Which means when you do a digital transfer, when you do a credit card transaction, you still pay that 3%. When you do a debit card transaction, you still pay a certain percentage. And all that money goes to an American company. That is now with UPI, what you have is, it's called a stack system, I think. from a tech perspective. You have a telephone number, you have an Aadhaar card, which is your government's unique digital identity. That's connected. The telephone number and the UDI are connected to your identity is connected to your account, which means what you have is a very, very safe ecosystem, which means every transaction is then traced to a telephone number and account number and to an

44:18 identity. So it's a very safe system of transaction. Is this outside of Visa and Mastercard? Yes. Right. So all the transactions that are being made, none of that gets rerouted to New York? It's all completely in here. That's the big deal. So that kind of makes it easier. Like you're basically sanction proofing yourself in a big way, right? Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Okay. Very interesting. Very interesting. All of these big transactions. American card companies out of the equation. So it's not SWIFT or anything. It's just UPI. And now UPI is there not only in India and Sri Lanka, but it's available in other countries as well. So they're circumventing SWIFT as well?

45:06 Wow. The Americans can't be happy about this. No, they're not. They can't be happy. So India's growth, basically, Santosh, it's... The growth rates are very high, right? Yes. Southern states are hitting 12, 13%. Northern states are hitting 6, 7%, I guess. And that's, again, let me reiterate from a Sri Aungan perspective. What am I saying? You have five, six southern states now, which have a combined GDP of $1.5 trillion, growing at 12, 14%. What are these states? Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Telangana, Karnataka. Which has a population of about 300 million. A middle class, which is a

45:56 large middle class of 175 million. Who now got the cash and who are closer to Colombo geographically than there to Mumbai, Delhi, Calcutta. Yeah. So imagine if you do the right kind of trade deal. I mean, basically a right kind of FTA, whatever you want to call it. But you have access to Southern India through Colombo, which is faster. So I met a Japanese gentleman who once contacted me and said, we want to meet you. And he's part of a Japanese investment organization. And he said, so I said, I'm Lanka, India business assistant, I'm Lanka. Japanese, you're fired.

46:43 No, no, no, we know what you're, we want to meet you. So he said, our intention is to promote India Sri Lanka trade. The Japanese? The Japanese. I said, why would the Japanese be interested in promoting India Sri Lanka? He said, primarily because we want a trade deal to happen, we want an agreement to happen between India and Sri Lanka in such a way that we can actually provide, create components in Sri Lanka. which through Sri Lanka can go to the southern Indian states. But for that to happen, the India-Sri Lanka agreement needs to be an electric system. So we want to support you. Right. Okay. Okay, that's very interesting. So imagine the opportunity. If the Japanese companies come here and produce

47:28 electronic components, various other things, and they can actually then supply it to all the southern Indian states because they feel, you know, logistically it's easier supply from here. Not only that, they feel that and this is the good news, which is they feel some of the skilled labour here can actually be superior. So why are we not doing what we should do? So let's assume that he comes here, goes up to someone, starts building components for southern Indian companies. Are there not trade barriers that are coming? Yes, Sri Lanka has high trade barriers, but Is it also not coming from India's side when they have tariffs on Sri Lanka? Exactly. So that's the point he's making.

48:14 We're saying let's do an agreement to break down these barriers so that we can actually start making stuff here which can go into India. So Santosh, why do you think India is hesitant to do this considering... Here's not. From what I understand, India is waiting. Both is deep. Someone from Sri Lanka needs to now go. and have a conversation, get that deal going. So India would be totally willing to allow all goods and services flowing in for... See, I don't know the details. I'm sure, you know, India would want to protect its market too. But is it really protecting its market considering that the size here is too small for it to affect India in any meaningful way? I completely agree with that. I mean, see, if you ask me personally, whatever you produce here can only be a mosquito bite... That's what I see.

49:05 I think you made this point with apparels, right? Which was a good example. Yeah, I think this point. Three billion is just a little dot. I think my view personally, if you ask me, is India should just allow everything tariff from Shinanka. That's because my heart is Shinanka. I personally also feel that, you know, I mean, what the hell? Yeah. Pardon the French. What are we talking about? Yeah. That's the honest view I have. But then I'm also... When I said this to somebody in government, Indian things, they said, Santras don't be naive. That's not how these things work. But why not though? Because in reality, you know, you have to go and talk to some boss of yours and convince your boss in government how you negotiated a better deal for India. How more

49:54 the country size... That's how the reality is. I mean, realpolitik, your whole concept of how people are driven by... Yeah, sure. I mean, just like the goodness of their heart. I totally agree. But which was like what I was talking about India becoming a great power and so on and so forth. I agree. That is a point which I have also made. What Shaan Ali is saying bang on, which is I've said, listen, if you really want to be a big power, can you need all these things and say, I'm a big power. I don't care. Yeah. This is, I mean, if India was serious about this, then they would do what Santosh is, I guess, advocating for to open up and say, Sri Lanka is our immediate neighbor, our closest neighbor. You know, we're willing to do this to get control of our backyard. So I have to say India is serious about Sri Lanka from what I know.

50:44 A lot of my diplomat friends here are extremely keen and work very hard. I don't doubt that at all. To make this relationship get better and better. I know people work 18, 20 hours a day. They spend their weekends, family time. And they push people and they make, come up with ideas. They work very hard. So I can't, I know them as friends as well. So maybe I'm a bit biased. I like them and they're pals of mine. But I also know many of my diplomat, Indian diplomat friends here. Care deeply about Shilohan and care deeply about trying to make the relationship work. Do you think it is going to work anytime soon? It is working. It is working. And I think it's a process. See, I think at the end of the day, I think, like I said, it's the best ever that the relationship is. So it's already working. It's obvious that many of our diplomatic

51:33 guys have worked very hard to make, bring the relationship to this stage. It needs to get better and bigger. I have a theory that India is just waiting itself out until it builds itself much because that is what's going to happen. And it's waiting for Sri Lanka's younger generation, the generation like that was born maybe like five years ago, like, you know, that once they get older, they come into the workforce, they come into leadership, they're not going to have the same sort of misperceptions or concerns about India as the older generation does. But I don't think India is waiting. You don't think so? India can't wait. India has to keep moving. And I think that generation that does not have the baggage is already here. Okay. I mean, people who were born after 2009 are already 16. Yeah. Yeah, that's a fair point.

52:23 Yeah, I mean, you know, yes, their parents may be telling them stuff, but many of these guys don't think their parents know much. That's true. You know, I know my own colleague who is in their 30s and has a child, does not rely on her mother's wisdom for taking care of the child. She thinks the world is completely different and her child needs a separate set of advice that probably her peers can tell her more about. Yeah. than her parent can. You know? Fair enough. So, I think that generation is already here. Of course, when will that generation come to the negotiating table to have a conversation? That might be a different conversation and an intuition, but I think no one's waiting. Sure. Everyone's working

53:09 very hard to make that deal happen. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. I mean, I hope that will be the same thing from, I guess, India's future generation, right? How they would view Sri Lanka. Yeah. That also needs a lot of work, I think. You think so? But I think, you know, because I also feel very often that very often Indians don't really know what Shink is. Yeah. And unfortunately, a lot of what that young person's mind has been colored a bit by what happened during the crisis. Yeah. And some of the blame of that has to go to the Indian media because I think, you know, a lot of the pictures of the presidential palace getting ransacked kept getting played over and over again. Whereas in reality, I personally think that economic crisis, Aragalaya, was one of the most non-violent

53:58 revolutions one could ever have. In fact, let's be clear. I tell my Indian friends, the last Sri Lanka election that got conducted didn't have one violent action. Yeah. Commendable. Commendable by any democratic standards around the world. Very true. So Sri Lanka has a lot to be proud about. especially in the way it's conducted its democratic elections and the way the democracy functioned in this country, it's amazing. The local people have a wisdom far beyond what you can imagine. People really know what's going on and they can't be fooled. It's a country that's now reached a stage of great maturity. That's why you... Okay, fair enough. I'm

54:47 biased. Okay, that's close. Fair enough, fair enough. I really care for the person. I love the guys. So I really think the country is amazing in various ways. So I think, but like you say, coming back to the point, many young Indians don't really know much about Shlant. What can we do to kind of, I think social media might be a good gateway to kind of... You know, I think you need to attract the right kind of tourists. I've always been making this point that the kind of Indians who come here are... let me put it different. The kind of Indians you attract are the ones who are value for money Indians. Right. Whereas actually speaking, 30 million Indians have traveled around the world. 450,000 come here and we are happy saying they're the single largest tourist. Yeah. You need to attract a different type of tourist is what you're saying. You need to attract the guy who spends a

55:33 lot of money and there are experiences. The high value ones, yeah. They can spend the money here and enjoy this country. I mean, I would think that would be the easiest kind of tourist to attract here. They're the closest but you know we haven't done enough to attract them. But if you're not doing enough for sure I mean 100%. Yeah fair enough. Fair enough I get it. So Santosh where do you think like where did you think that India's rise really started to begin? Do you think it was the Modi era that started to bring that out and if so what are the policies that India has really like maybe top three you feel? I think it's 1991. 1991. The

56:20 moment you unleashed the inherent entrepreneurial zeal within the Indian population, India started rising. Okay. You know, many years ago when I was in college, I made a presentation. I was in a debate and I was supposed to speak for why India will fail. Okay. The topic was given. Okay. Interesting. And I, I, so it's not that I was going to say that we are going to fail. But I was given the topic saying you have to prove to people that India will fail. And then another group was given a thing saying India will rise. And I basically raised one statistic. I said India has 3.5% of the world's natural resources in its geography. And that's 15% of the world's population.

57:07 The US and USSR put together. Landmass has 15% of the world's natural resources. and 3% of the world's population. How can India win? Okay. But I was thankfully proven wrong because within that 14% population, every state in India has an entrepreneurial population which once they were unleashed with liberalization, they have really created value. You're a big proponent of the federalism system of like states competing with each other. 100%. And you have seen some of my conversations about it. Yes. And I think that federal competitiveness, which is now a significant part of the current

57:57 establishment, where India is talking about being a developed country by 2048. And every state seems to be competing to become larger and bigger and add to that pie. It's an amazing energy for... It's an amazing energy. Every state's competing with each other. That energy is incredible. Kerala? Ostensibly a communist-run state. Yeah. But talking the language of federal competitiveness and saying they're going to be a trillion-dollar economy by 2048. And that's a vision. I mean, Kerala is run by a communist party, right? Exactly. But I mean, again... Which goes back to our point, because you first said 1991. What

58:44 are some other key factors you feel India has? I think there's a... See, you know, the process is irreversible. The process of economic growth in India is now irreversible. It started in 1991. But I think afterwards, every political party which has come in has actually added fuel to the fire of economic growth. Okay. And I think, you know, it's fair to say... that in the last 15 years too, the Indian political establishment has been actively working towards driving growth and economic growth and driving prosperity. Okay. And you know, many, many millions of Indians have been taken out of poverty. Great stuff has happened. So... Okay. So... Oh, we got

59:33 into small distraction. That's okay. Please continue. Yeah. What happened? They wanted to ask if the lights on paper. Some lights? Yeah. Oh, I think they want the lights outside. Okay. So one of the main concerns, Santosh, is that after maybe I believe it's 2028, India's next election, 2029, right? I'm sorry. I wasn't aware of that. I wasn't thinking about the next election at all. Right. I mean, I think this is the end of Modi's term, if I'm not mistaken, and a lot of the concern with investors and all around the globe, I guess is, will India reverse

1:00:19 much of its policy for fragmented coalition government comes in in the next election, right? See, I can't see that happening. You don't see a coalition coming into it? No, I can't see policy of economic liberalization being reversed. Right. Okay. I think the horse of economic liberalization liberalization has well and pre-bolted. And it can't be re-indeed. Ever. I don't think there's ever going to be a secret. You can never say never, but I think I can't see that. It can be slowed down, right? With external powers. I don't believe the United States would want to see a big China and a big India. The US has learned their lesson, I think, from what they've done with China and they don't want to repeat that with India. No, no, absolutely. And I think there could be a slowdown, but there can't

1:01:08 be a... the slowdown will not be seen. Okay. I think the slowdowns will happen. See, reality is that India, now if you look at the policy statements coming out of India, India is looking at a multipolar world. Yeah. And India has recognized the fact that, you know, that there is no one prominent power anymore in the world. And that therefore, even for India to grow, it will need to have significant different alliances and I think we are building those alliances. Yeah, for sure. And we can see that even while this current situation has happened with tariffs, etc. Yeah. It hasn't really slowed down India's growth. It has created temporary annoyance and irritation but I don't think growth has reduced.

1:01:59 Well, yeah, US put a 50% tariff on India but much of the goods don't actually go to the US from India, right? Exactly. Right. But Sri Lanka is... mainly dependent on the export-driven market to the US and the UK. And if I'm not mistaken, India is more consumption-driven. So do you feel like that model, Santosh, is kind of sustainable to be a consumption-driven economy? Because now India is trying to go the different way from China, who went on the export-led growth. Is the consumption-led growth something you see... and sustain itself for a long time because the reality is that I think 800 million Indians are still living on subsidized, you know, payments. So the middle class you

1:02:45 are talking about is what 175, 200 million people. And I concede they have the ability for high purchasing power parity. But at the end of the day, the disparity is still very, very large. So how do you see this consumption model going? To be honest, I really... I can't answer that question. I don't think I'm economically knowledgeable enough to give that answer. I'm not an economist. My view is a slightly different view. I'm a businessman. From a business perspective, what I see is a country of entrepreneurs unleashed. I see energy in the streets of India. Whichever city I go to,

1:03:30 I was in Hyderabad two weeks ago for a wedding. transforming everyone's talking the transformation language interesting young people are hungry for success everyone I mean I was telling a friend the other day and I didn't mean this as a joke I meant it seriously but I don't know how to interpret it it can be judged in various ways I'm sitting in a pub the other day and I'm hearing youngsters having these great conversations in the night and I'm going in to listen to them and understand what they're talking about they're talking about future careers and like why would you bug us at 10, 13 at night have a conversation in a dark pub with a musical place about what your futures are going to be what's wrong with you guys you know life you know I came thinking I'm going to have this

1:04:16 great conversation about your nightlife and what we're going to do and drug and all that but no they're talking about careers they're talking about I'm saying this is what I'm going to do there that kind of tells you a little bit of how young India is going yeah the other day I heard that bhajan clubbing has become a big thing. So young India. Bhajan clubbing? Bhajan clubbing. So they basically go in certain places where they listen to indigenous songs. And they do jai ramsitaram, jai ramsitaram. And they're making milk and curd. And I'm Czech bhajan clubbing. It's a huge deal in India. Really? So also what I'm sensing with India, as India is growing materially, India

1:05:05 is going deeper spiritually. So, Bia Biceps was one of the big podcasters. Now, a lot of his content is about spirituality. See, Bhajan Talk, it's a big deal in India. That's pretty good. So, you were saying spirituality and growth. Do you see that can go together? Because usually if you grow materially, the spirituality goes as you see in the West. Yeah. No, I think that's the thing about India. India is always a country of contradictions. Every time I go to India, I come out feeling inspired by the energy and come out feeling frustrated at some of the lack of infrastructure. It always goes hand in hand. India is like life. Interesting. In the sense that nothing is just one. A straight line. It's

1:05:52 always, you know, you go in one day, you're feeling excited about everything and wow, inspiration. And the other day, you're like, what the hell is going on here? Right. You know? So I think that's why India has always been the center of spirituality. Because I think, you know, you can't go into India and come out feeling neutral. You have to come out feeling something. You have to come out feeling, wow, this place is rocking at some points. And this is disgusting, man. I can't handle this anymore. Kind of. As well. Kind of every day. That's what India is. Yeah, it's definitely a very lively place. Yeah, it's an intense place. I mean, I read this book. I didn't read this book. I read the summary of the book

1:06:39 of an Indian who, Dr. I forget his name, Dr. Bashar. I forget. He was advocating that India should have 75 states and compete even more. Yeah. I'm... You know, I'm the opposite of all of that. Maybe I'm too much of a imagine, you know, there's no country kind of person. Okay. Because I genuinely feel that, you know, yesterday the gentleman who was talking about AI was talking about humanity which is going to change with AI. Where countries may not exist and nations may not exist. Okay. AI is going to change the world so that humanity gets closer together. Because even if you look at one of the big guys in technology, Elon Musk, And if you listen to his conversations,

1:07:26 it's about going to Mars. Yeah. It's much larger in terms of thinking and believing than just being confined to boundaries and territories and fears and how we're going to compete with each other. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm not a big believer in breaking India down further into states and territories. And I would rather that we go further beyond higher and have a larger perspective. That's just... That's just me right now in my... I mean, that is kind of happening. I mean, if you take a look at India's space industry, I believe the foreign minister, the finance minister of India, Nirmala Sitaraman, right? One of the things she mentioned was one of the main drivers of growth, obviously,

1:08:13 is the demographics. And the other thing is the privatization that they are doing. And she gave the space industry as a good example of the... successful

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