Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]

0:00 i know people are going to be asking why is the smartest man in the world living on a farm in the middle of missouri [Music] welcome to my extremely ethereal and trippy new set i feel as though i am floating in a cloud here in this all-white venue and perhaps that is fitting for this first interview in a series of much longer much more in-depth interviews i'm so excited that my first guest is christopher langan the smartest man in the world i do not say that as a subjective statement or to flatter chris i mean that in as technical a way as possible chris has one of if not the highest iq

0:46 ever recorded somewhere between 100 90 195 and 210 and chris is not here by way of some fancy distinguished professorship at such and such brand name university nor did chris just get off of his private yacht out of the south of france and come here to leave his billion dollar company chris came here from a farm in missouri after a career as a bouncer at bars around new york chris thank you very much for coming on thank you for inviting me michael i first stumbled onto you when i was 18 years old freshman in college and listen i barely got out of high school math i barely got out of calculus so i got out of high school myself

1:31 that's a good point but i said this guy he's saying things that are really really interesting and so i want to learn more i've wanted to talk to you ever since then i know that before we get into metaphysics the existence of god free will politics culture and everything in between i know people are going to be asking why is the smartest man in the world why is he not just buying and selling all of us all the time why is it why is he living on a farm in the middle of missouri well that's a good question and it's that i was never actually interested in money when i was a when i was a kid we my brothers and i my family we were not exactly the richest folks in town we seldom had enough money to buy you

2:18 know food or clothes and so i sort of immersed myself in in books and reading and decided that what i wanted to do was pursue knowledge it costs you nothing to pursue knowledge really i provided you you can sustain yourself while you're in pursuit of it so that's what i did i simply focused myself on i want to know the truth about reality i want to know you know what kind of world it is that i'm living in and that's what i that's what i went for now as far as the making money is concerned one thing that i found out is that there are certain ingredients uh certain certain advantages that you need in order to become rich of course it helps to be born with money that's the use also that's the easiest way and it helps to have a lot of connections yeah okay the right kind of connections and

3:03 it helps not to alienate the people who have all the money because then they'll exclude you and cancel you you know that's what they do that's what canceled culture is basically people are being frozen out of the economy okay and i found myself getting frozen out of the economy that way from an early age i mean i was you know i tried to go to college but uh ran into a couple of problems personnel problems on the faculties of the colleges in question and that stopped me you know that basically when you get you know when you you you can't get a college education you are canceled economically presumably though you you know you show up to college even though you've got a tough upbringing and you know not not any real advantages in terms of family or society but you're obviously you've got a higher iq

3:50 than anybody in the room you're obviously extremely smart you're extremely self-educated so you get into college it should be a total breeze for you well it was a total breeze for me too much of a breeze for me you know you ask the wrong kinds of questions of people who are full of themselves and think they have all the answers you know like you know in a calculus class you know say well you know why don't you explain exactly how what an infinite decimal interval is and how you can traverse from one end to the other and you know they'll look at you as though you've got two heads i ask that all the time i ask my waiters i yeah well i got a very poor reaction out of that there was a there was a math instructor in an albert license ring i think who decided that i must be absolutely brain dead i mean i went and went into

4:37 his office you know this guy was a very strange character he's about six and a half feet tall he'd come into class you know everybody would be waiting there for him he'd make a late entrance you know be waiting for 10-15 minutes he'd walk in right with a this great big stack of mimeograph sheets and then he'd hand out you know walk around the room methodically handing out these sheets to all of the students and everybody would have a sheet in front of them then he'd walk up to the room and and symbol for symbol everything that was written on the sheets would appear on the blackboard then he'd turn around and walk out now finally i i you know i thought what you know i was having a hard time with this there were certain things that i you know didn't quite understand how he was why he was doing them the way he was so i kept on trying to track him down to his office he was never in his office you know i would wait in the hall for

5:24 you know hours and hours for this guy i never showed up finally i caught him in his office and i said hi professor licen ring can i come in well i'm really kind of busy right now and i well yeah i i just wanted to ask you one question you know how why do you do this why are you taking a set theoretic approach to the calculus like this you know i mean they don't seem to be compatible you know on the one hand you know the calculus deals with change whereas sets are static things why are you state why are you taking this particular approach to it and he looks at me and he's you know asperger's victim right yeah and he looks at me looks down his thing he says well you know some people just don't have the mental firepower to be mathematicians

6:12 well what was i supposed to do hit the guy i wanted it right right but he says something that's sort of pathetic almost to say but it is it is pathetic but it basically told me a lot about how he sees the world how he sees other people i don't want to take a course from a guy like that yeah you know and it offended me because i was you know i've been a poor kid i just came off a ranch i've been working all summer punching cows you know and uh and there i was you know i met all these there was a bunch of hippies in there right basically new york hippies uh no i won't call them hippies these are basically affluent kids from new york the place where i went was basically that was the client that was the clientele that was a student body right and they all couldn't you know they were constantly talking asking questions bright for the most part but i felt like

6:59 a fish out of water right it was culture shock for me yeah you know what is this you know i'm i'm used to you know being around a bunch of uh you know hay seeds yeah cowboys you know punching cows you know going to the you know bar at night or whatever drinking beer and uh there was nothing like that these kids are sitting around smoking pot you know doing drugs you know psychedelics now just to clarify when he says not everyone has the power to be a mathematician was was this an admission of his own failure to explain his process he's calling you stupid yes wow he was claiming that i didn't have the intellectual firepower to be a mathematician or at least that's the way i interpret it yeah and because i was used to being slighted in that way i mean you know i kind of grew up in a rough and tumble if people feel intellectually threatened by you you get

7:44 a lot of this kind of thing so i i assumed that that's what was happening and i've never seen never heard anything after that that would lead me to believe anything different so so you leave college presumably you're much more intelligent than anyone that you're going to meet on the faculty or in the students so you leave college what is it about being a bar bouncer what what is it about that that physical activity because presumably even without a college degree you could have done some middling paper pushing job and it probably wouldn't have been very lucrative or fulfilling for you but presumably you could have done something like that instead of a tough physical potentially dangerous job like you're being a bouncer could have but there are certain there

8:31 are certain problems that you know i can't for example when i was in new york i got a job in a grommet factory okay it was stimson gromits you know you had grumman aircraft there you know they got military defense contracts i think they were working on f-16s at one point and then there's a you know there was simpson grommets which produced these aircraft rivets for these airplanes and i had this machine and man the the sound the noise from this machine wham wham wham no hearing protection no nothing was issued to anybody yeah and i started you know like losing my hearing and and so forth and i figured well i can't stand this anymore i got to get out of here so i was about to leave but i had a girlfriend and she said no i want you to stay so i figured okay let me see if i can get out of the kind of job so i took the civil service exam and was offered a

9:18 job by the irs and that of course was a moral dilemma yeah that's what i had worse than exactly exactly how awful do i want to be as a person you know and i decided that i needed to go home anyway yeah so i went back to montana at that point um but basically then what i found out well i went back to new york when i was in my late 20s that's when i started doing the bar bouncing thing right but and i wasn't making that much money i was working for forty dollars a night coming out of there bloody you know with rip shirts ripped off my back you couldn't i couldn't even pay for the shirts you know right that i was making so i figured okay what i'll do is i'll take the civil service exam again now this is i don't want to sound insensitive but at that point in new york there was a a protocol whereby you

10:06 take the civil service exam and if you are a minority if you are non-white you get 30 extra points yeah but this there's nothing insensitive this is just a fact i mean it's the fact of our laws of fact they've been doing it for a long time it's called affirmative action of course and uh when that happens you know and i'm applying to be say a police officer right and uh all of these other guys these non-white guys are you know looking also to be police officers you learn that there's a a line of 3 000 guys in front of you this is so then you give up your idea of being a police officer and you give up your idea of ever succeeding getting a job on the basis of a civil service exam now they do have you know white police officers in new york but almost all those guys are connected they've got some kind of uncle or acquaintance or somebody who's

10:53 on the police force that will put in a good a good word for them i didn't have anybody like that and merit made no difference whatsoever this is not a meritocracy we live in yeah you can take any number of these tests and outscore everybody else and get nothing and nowhere and it's especially true of civil service it's it's true in a lot of fields in the economy but especially in civil service that has been a pronounced issue for a long time so presumably during all this time though you're not just saying as many people do when they leave college whether they graduate or not they say okay well that's it i'm never reading a book again i'm done with all that book learning something tells me that's not not your mindset even as you're doing these physical jobs it certainly was and i would i would like go to library sales and found a little bookstore you know that

11:38 had some academic books in it and just get whatever i could and i always had to uh i had to basically read whatever i found i couldn't afford to order a book you know i mean even back then books were expensive so i couldn't go to a bookstore and pay full price for a book so i was constantly buying used books which were you know when they were textbooks they were used and therefore outmoded you know the field advances the book stays the same but nevertheless you know it's got some of the stuff that i need in it then i can i can absorb that so that's what i did yeah just basically worked on my uh you know on my own ideas trying to apply what i read in these books was there any field that attracted you in particular i mentioned that i don't have anything past high school math and even that it was

12:25 pretty sketchy on math physics philosophy theology well now when i was uh 14 i was working on a ranch in wilson montana which is just across the bridges from bozeman i don't know if you're familiar with boseman but anyway i was uh you know working as a as punching cow stacking hay irrigating on this ranch and uh and i took two books with me and one of them was a book by by albert einstein on the theory of relativity and the other one was a book by bertrand russell okay and i i would read these books i was living in a covered wagon they call it a sheep wagon these days but literally literally i'm not kidding i mean that's what it was you know kerosene lamp in a in a sheep wagon out in the middle of a field of reading bertrand russell and alberto

13:10 reading bertrand wrestling albert einstein and it occurred to me these two things really need to be put together and then you know once i decided that i started putting them together and then i found out about kurt gerdell and the undecidability theorem and and yes absolutely okay you see because reality isn't just geometric which is what einstein thought it was nor is it just linguistic it's a blend of the two right russell saw it as being linguistic einstein saw it as being geometric okay so i decided that reality must be logical geometric putting the two of them together and of course then i realized well i've got to put together a theory construct a theory in which reality is actually logical geometric and so that's where the ctmu

13:56 came from and the ctmu is the cognitive theoretic model of the cognitive theoretic model of the universe this is your theory of everything my theory of everything and it's all in the name if you take a good close look at that you've got cognitive theory and of course you know a theory is a kind of language theoretic language okay then you've got cognitive theoretic model you've got a model and then you've got universe you've got a language you've got a universe and then the model is the mapping between them ctmu says those are all the same thing all of those terms all of those those uh those properties are distributed everywhere over reality reality can have only one structure when once you realize that and you implement it in theoretical form so then the question i asked you is kind of a

14:41 stupid question because i said which field was it that attracted you and your answer is yes [Laughter] well i would have to say it would have to be logic and language and then physics and mathematics okay so those are the those are the fields and that's what i thought i was conveying but yes apparently i need to spell it out you do no you do because but this is so important that you're not just talking about this siloed aspect of thought or this you know philosophy over here language over here math over here physics over here but you're presenting something that is universal correct correct absolute and universal to get the absolute invariance the absolute truths of reality you know things that are true everywhere

15:28 you go no matter you know at what time you exist or in what place you exist it's the same so for those of us who have an iq that's a little bit lower than yours i'm i'll admit it i with no false modesty and no uh undue confidence well iq is not the last word in intelligence by any means iq is where you focus you can focus marshall all your intellectual energy and focus it very tightly on one item that you've been presented with okay there's tests contain items and you're focusing on each one of those items you're not seeing anything else okay and that's what iq is but in addition to that depth and that focus there is also aperture think of

16:14 the mind as a kind of camera okay what a lot of high iq people have a lot of difficulty doing is widening their mental aperture you've got to be flexible you've got to be able to widen and narrow that aperture at will as you're doing the depth perception too so you've got the focus depth of focus the magnification as it were yeah plus the aperture and most people you know most high iq people they have the magnification but they don't have the aperture so then from the perspective simultaneously i suppose both of depth and breadth here if we're talking about a theory of everything the first question we have to establish does god exist yes simple yes

17:00 it's the identity has a the reality has an identity okay the identity is that as which something exists okay another matter of fact when you say the word reality you're naming an identity it is you're identifying something this i'm smiling because your answer on this is so beautiful it it just reminds me of of moses at the burning bush and moses at the burning bush says who shall i tell the people that you are talking to god and god says tell them i am that i am right i am identity itself i'm being himself exactly that's exactly right that's what the ctmu says it's just comes up with the mathematical structure that you need to build a reality out of that you see so you come up with that identity and then you search it for its properties

17:46 you see once you've built the preliminary framework then you start deducing the properties of this identity and you find out that those properties match those of god as described in most of the world's major religions right just the theistic religion so i'm thinking judaism christianity and islam or are you talking also of saying buddhism taoism hinduism buddhism of course hinduism and buddhism they have a god taoism you know they the their central principle is the way or the dao okay and uh they don't see dao as as as god and then in buddhism of course you've got you know they they are trying basically to achieve sunyata or emptiness right which is most buddhists a lot of buddhists don't even understand

18:32 what that's supposed to mean but once again there's no god there you can kind of read god implicitly some buddhists have talked to buddhists who actually think that there is a god in buddhism of a sort but it's you know that concept of of pure consciousness is what it is okay and if you ask them well whose consciousness are you talking about they will point at themselves and say my consciousness in a way they're you know they kind of attribute the existence of everything to themselves okay now i know i've known a lot of people in hollywood in washington dc who do the same thing actually well that's that's right that's why buddhism is very fashionable among some of those people that's a good point yeah that's a good point so so yes uh but anyway when you look at what they've they've all got you

19:18 come down to the same thing all right everybody has the dao or the way you know that's the way reality works right and uh and and everybody you know has sunyata which is pure syntax right pure cognition with no instantiation no content right and then you've got what what the abrahamic religions call god it's all the same thing okay but what are its properties okay are its properties such that you can deny the existence of god or are its properties such that god definitely has to exist and the answer is god exists god property is the properties of the central substance and central principle

20:04 of reality those properties are attributed to god including of course you know things like you have the three o's omniscience omnipotence and omnipresence but then you've also got consciousness god has to be sentient so so we're not just we're not just defining god out of existence sometimes you'll hear people say god exists and and but they'll give god such a weak and shallow definition that the god that they're describing has no uh no relation to the god that we conceive of you're saying no this god is god god himself is conscious and and therefore personal yes you can establish a personal relationship with god we're images of god you know what an image is it's basically the product of a mapping god maps himself into each human

20:51 being right that's a very personal thing that god is doing for us right and i don't understand how anybody can say that it's any different we reflect the structure of the universe each one of us we're carried by it everything we do we exist in a medium what is that medium right where did it come from what holds it together what is the unifying coherence the source of coherence of that medium now now is your claim that is your claim a pantheistic claim that god is the universe or the universe is god and that's that or no or is god outside of the universe and created god is greater than well what is the universe damned if i know you ever hear the simulation hypothesis yes okay well the simulation hypothesis

21:38 is basically the idea that reality we see around is physical reality is simulated on some sort of an automaton or or a or a computer yeah some some aliens somewhere have just uh they've fooled us right right exactly eat a piece of liquid before one launches into the simulation one needs a little sustenance you know okay so anyway the idea is that you've got some kind of an automaton running you've got a simulation mounting on it and god it's more panentheistic you know what panentheism is i do uh i think i do but that means that uh we are in god let me know how i've gone wrong we are in god and god is in us and it is not

22:24 merely that god and the creation are one and the same but they are quite related is that something approaching panentheism a little bit because there's uh there's the idea is that you've got the physical universe that you see around you but god is not confined to the physical universe okay see there's a an ordinary pantheist thinks assumes that god is somehow confined to the universe that there is just what we see around us and god is in every piece of it god is distributed over it yeah but it's uh it's a little bit more complex than that because this part of the universe that we see around us cannot exist just by itself yeah okay there are certain things that it entails and when you go into those entailments

23:11 that's how you get to god that's how you get to the identity of reality okay and now to get back to the to the reality self-simulation at least that's what i call it self-simulation but to get back to the simulation hypothesis that we're living in the display of that simulation in addition to the display there is also a processing aspect okay and god it captures both of those things he captures both the display and the processor what what do you mean i hate to put it in the end well i mean okay here's the display you realize the display contains states yep okay you see things the objects contains it states are static that's why they're called states okay static how do they change well they have to be processed something has to okay

23:58 yeah yeah and and in the calculus for example those are tiny little infinitesimal intervals okay but they are not actually contained in the states themselves they have a neighborhood a little tangent space or what have you you know where you can sort of draw little vectors that suggest that some kind of processing is going on but the idea of being a state and being a process those are two different things to the in the ordinary ordinary way of looking at it okay it turns out that you can't properly describe reality and causation at all unless you put those things together somehow and that's what it takes god to do okay god provides the processing functionality for your state you have an internal state an external state you're a material human being right like to

24:44 explain how that is changing through time uni and maintaining its coherence through time even as it changes that's what you need god for yeah i certainly agree with that entirely and so i i might not be sophisticated enough to parse all of the quibbles that there might be but broadly speaking as a christian so much of what you're saying resonates is obviously true for me the idea that uh well i'm a member of the body of christ the idea that god creates the world in this uh great act of love this great act of charity self-love and and yeah yeah well then self-love don't forget you're an image of god right so when loving himself god loves you and god and and you're supposed to love god back right and this ties into something like the trinity right the idea that god

25:30 is three persons in one divine unity so all of this is making a lot of sense to me so now how do i how do i make sense of consciousness well ordinarily you know what quantum mecha you know quantization is you know i know the word yeah well you decide what the the ultimate irreducible objects are the the the quanta in terms of which your reason it turns out that in order to quantize that theory that i was talking about that theory of identity where you've got the display and you've got the processor and it's handling both it turns out that in order to handle both of those things you need a certain kind of quantum that quantum is called an identity

26:17 operator god is the identity so obviously these little quanta they have to be they're doing things they're processing so we can call them operators right they are identity operators okay the identity operator has basically it takes input from the outside world recognizes it or accepts it using syntax processes it and then returns it to the world as external state okay so things come in then they're processed right there's throughput which is you could call that the subjective or internal state of the identity operator and then it's returned to the external universe so what are you attributing now so what i'm saying is that's consciousness and i'm saying that consciousness exists in every part of the universe because those are the

27:02 quantum no that's what i'm asking are you telling me that this table is conscious in that sense yes generically conscious but it's relying on our consciousness to do it we have there's there's levels of quanta okay these are tertiary quanta they're all put together using physical localistic forces right but those are under determinative they don't fully determine what happens why the heisenberg uncertainty principle for example it tells you that you know the quantum rules they're probabilistic right they don't actually determine events okay so what determines events we do we don't know how we do it but we do it when everybody's will is put together we're all creating the best possible

27:48 universe we can for ourselves and god is what harmonizes all of our different perspectives and makes things happen for all of us at the same time and if we were doing things correctly this would be the best of all possible worlds sadly however we oftentimes make mistakes and that's what we have to get out of doing but we can't get out of doing it until we understand what reality is what we are and what the relationship between those two things is now you've mentioned two things that raise a new question for me which is you mention this idea of simulation just the simulation or self-simulation and you've mentioned us doing things so then it would seem to me we have to tackle the question do we really do much of anything at all in the sense do we have free will

28:34 yes we do okay i'm glad to hear it i always thought we did well yes we have to have free will oh i was discussing with you earlier the idea of a fixed array yeah all right now modern physics no basically what you've got is you've got a bunch of quantum fields and superposition and then those fields consist of little fluctuations little quantum fluctuations right where is the fixed array we were talking about a manifold right with a bunch of zero dimensional points okay those two things are not compatible okay quantum field theory and that that that fixed array manifold where you can parameterize all of the causal functions using the manifold that doesn't work okay those two things don't fit together now now you you explained to me when we were

29:21 speaking about this earlier you put this into even more layman's terms and i've somehow it has already flown out of my head can you can you put that into more basic terms what you've just said but what was it you you need to understand about this what what are you actually why why are these two concepts you're describing why are they not reconcilable these what is the problem with these oh i i explained that to you already that's what okay all right it consists of zero dimensional points limit points or cuts and i told you what a dedicated cut was right these limit points have zero extent they're exact locations and that's a cut you're actually you know you've got something on one side of the point and then you've got something on the other side of the point

30:08 and any line that you draw through the point itself is going to be cut by the point yep okay so so we call that a cut okay okay and the uh the cut is zero dimensional which means that it has no extent at all it's an exact location it's precise no extent it's not smeared out okay if you take all of those points and you add them together you get zero right now because no matter how many times you add zero to itself you just get zero and because the manifold consists of those points that's what you have to do to find out the extent of the manifold okay so what this is telling you is that the manifold itself has a zero extent there's nothing there so the real manifold of classical physics is a paradoxical construct okay okay so that's why those two things

30:54 that's why that doesn't work with quantum field theory and the idea that things are are you know quantum fluctuations and fields you know that's as a matter of fact that particular concept of the real manifold that doesn't work for anything at all it's a conceptual convenience we can reason about reality in terms of it and we can actually get to some very interesting conclusions okay using it you're right but it doesn't work in the long run okay and because it doesn't work most causal functions of course are parameterized in terms of this manifold okay okay in other words you take you know you've got x y and z axes and the forces that exist the forces that cause things to hap to happen right those are those forces are

31:40 all directed along one of those axes that's what a force is right okay when you take away the points those zero dimensional points now all of that disappears the basis of causation has just fled the coop on you right okay because you no longer have little points the tails of the little vectors that point there you can no longer parameterize your causal functions using those points and vectors so what do you do to get causal functions well it turns out you have to use something called advanced causation and you combine that with retrocausa with uh retro cause or excuse me advanced causation is called retro causation you combine that with ordinary causation and you get something else entirely it's called metacausation in the ctmu

32:26 so it's referred to using two operations one of which is called conspansion and the other which is called sub operation called telecrecursion because when we're talking about free will often the conversation especially these days becomes this sort of shallow discussion of well this caused this and i'm going to describe a totally deterministic system and so as a result of this causing this causing this causing this you don't have free will and you're saying cause is actually more complicated than just cause that's correct in other words talking about free will in those terms is oshios means nothing you can't get anywhere with it okay reality is actually generative okay it's not a fixed manifold everything has been

33:12 created all the time not just our states our states are being recreated right you know i can cross my legs i can uncross my leg that's that's the that's the changing state yeah but uh but the medium around us is changing when i look at you i'm seeing michael knowles okay i'm seeing you sitting there but that means that i'm seeing your boundary i'm seeing what distinguishes you from the external environment right there's a medium around you so i have to be regenerating that as the same time as i'm regenerating your state in my head okay when i say regenerating the reason i'm doing that i could also say i'm recognizing michael knowles i'm recognizing your state right now but i'm also recognizing the state of the medium around you because otherwise i wouldn't be able to distinguish you from the medium and you wouldn't exist at all right right well

33:58 it's sort of like a a little baby right has trouble uh recognizing the limits of things and recognizing what some individual object might be from you know the glass on the table they have trouble distinguishing those precisely yeah okay the baby has to learn to distinguish those boundaries and it has to receive the right visual cues at the right age so that it can actually learn how to do that yeah so now now we're at metacausation so what does medicalization hap what causation works from past to future okay metacausation works from past to future and from future to past in a closed loop it's called a conspensive cycle okay okay so that's basically what we have to do to quantization in order to make causality where no and of course when i say causality i

34:44 mean metacausation okay so how does because ordinary past the future causality parameterized by a fixed array that doesn't work so i get i get past the future this seems pretty simple i pick up the glass of water i put it over here and now i remember two seconds ago that water was over here and then i caused it to go over there right so how do you cause something to go from the future to the past you it you it can't go anywhere unless there's some place for it to go yeah that's that's all i'm saying okay this is in the universe everything changes with time you're actually you know in the theory of relativity for example all the points are events okay and that means that there's a time parameter involved okay so when you take that glass and you move

35:30 it from there to there okay you think that there's a point right there where you're gonna move that glass that's false okay the point to which you are going to move that glass is actually in the future when you pick up that glass it's still in you understand what i'm saying yes okay that makes sense and and then getting back to god i guess we're always trying to get back to god god is outside of time and space distributes over time and space and there's some left over time and space is static it's a display imagine that you're a little homunculus inside a computer display like the matrix for example okay god not only distributes over that but there's a whole other domain where god

36:18 exists and that's the processing domain that's the non-terminal domain in the ctme we're in the terminal domain right and most physicists when they try to reason about the terminal domain they reason under physical confinement okay well i can only look at physics and i have to use what i know about physics what i can observe about physics to explain everything else that i explain so they have that kind of explanatory closure yep going right there so speaking of this non-terminal domain in a really basic question do i'm not going to ask you if i'm going to go to heaven or hell but will i go to either heaven or hell you will persist

37:04 after you die okay where you go depends on who michael knowles really is i you would know that better than anyone yeah i i hope i know that better than but you're you're telling me i'm going somewhere yes you're confident of that i don't just uh evaporate i don't just turn into oblivion well you can if you displease god that's exactly what's going to happen to you god is going to cut you off and he's going to say i can't see him anymore he's going to turn away from you and then you won't be able to reunite salvation will be impossible for you because salvation means that god has got to pull you back into himself right okay but god doesn't want to see you anymore he doesn't even know you exist he knows your physical body is there but he's not interested anymore because you hate him you deny his existence you offend him so

37:51 he's not going to look at you right so now what happens well okay you're dead you still want to live there's something in you that still desperately wants to live so it's still going to be there what happens now well you try to create your own world for yourself but if you're a bad person you're an evil person what kind of world is that going to be it's going to be an evil world and that's what we call hell this is what john milton says in the mouth of satan he says the mind is its own place and it can make a hell of heaven or heaven a hell no you got it it reminds me of dante also this this idea of god turning away at the very deepest part of hell is satan frozen in a lake of ice of his own making of his own making because of the flapping of his own wings because he's apart from the warmth of god precisely okay

38:37 that's the way it has to work so we've gotten through death judgment heaven and hell free will and god i'm not completely there's a lot more to be said well and and we still have some time i mean fortunately on my usual show there is about 30 seconds to come to any conclusion about anything and thankfully i am not bringing chris lange into nashville to talk for 10 minutes i this is going to be a much longer discussion uh so for this discussion would you like a cigar sure i haven't smoked a cigar in a long time oh excellent you know the body is a temple the temple needs incense back in the day i used to enjoy a cigar every now and then

39:28 good cigar i'm glad you liked it this is one of my favorite cigars that's come out you know if you were on the joe rogan show they would offer you something a little stronger but uh this we're gonna keep it to tobacco on this show i think i think i've seen a couple of yeah i've seen the rogan show a couple of times he was talking about some kind of drugs at that point in his career i think that's all he was talking about yeah did you ever get into drugs i'm not saying you know just because you were around bars in new york but even the drugs that everyone says expand your mind and anything like that well you couldn't really grow up in the era when i grew up around the kind of people i was surrounded with without trying you know some drugs i have no i don't have a substance abusive tendency in my body i i i just don't have any bad habits except

40:14 for this licorice and candy oh man i love that stuff it's addictive i don't know it is but i have to hide it for myself i don't have any in the house right now um but you so you never go because i would always have people tell me especially in college they'd say michael you have to drop acid you have to smoke this you have to take mushrooms it's going to expand your mind and i thought you know my mind is my brain such as it is is pretty much all i got i'm not exactly the captain of the football team and if some drug messes up my brain i'm sunk that's correct but of course what they say is that some of these medications are can actually be good for you in terms of you may have certain things certain mental routines

41:01 that are destructive and that aren't good for you that can be interdicted by psychedelics for example what's your take on it my take is that could very well be true you know the psychedelics could open up a gap between your your temporal consciousness and your non-terminal consciousness right your mind is a it's an extended stratified thing you're we're just using our terminal consciousness right now but there are other aspects to your consciousness you can actually get you know certain kinds of insights and communications if you just open up a gap you understand let them come in and let them come in and fill the gap and then you know you can see them as they would ordinarily so the things that people see when they're on psychedelics

41:47 i usually write them off and i tell people you know you're just uh hallucinating but but you're saying maybe that's not not all it is they might be seeing something real well once again what is reality is reality just stuff out there no reality has a mental aspect right and once you admit that basically everything has a mental aspect then of course what's going on in your mind is real it takes on a kind of reality it's not the same as physical reality it is nevertheless real are angels and demons real yes yes i think so too is there is there a fear that if you take some of these drugs you might be letting in the wrong guys that's a problem isn't it

42:32 and that's a problem that i think a lot of people have encountered you have to be a certain kind of person to be able to handle these drugs and not be sucked under by them okay because once your mind is you know is is is uh is messed with and that way something else you know it's weakened you know you're not exactly in control anymore something else can come in and grab it and if you open up that gap that i was talking about what can come into that gap might not be good for you god is real angels are real demons are real is the devil real oh yes yes well it has to be you know we were talking about michael knowles being surrounded by the medium and you know you've got a boundary well god has a boundary too he's got a very

43:17 tight boundary he's a perfect he's perfect he can't take anything resembling imperfection right he can't take it into himself because that would be a contradiction okay so god needs an antithesis in order to be properly defined what is that antithesis anti-god or satan so it definitely exists now satan isn't coherent because you know he basically hates existence nevertheless he gains coherence through human beings through secondary telors as they're called in the ctmu in other words satan can nucleate power structures for example you know things like corporations and governments where you've got people in there that can be acquired as resources and there's a kind of skeleton you know a corporate organization a governmental you know

44:03 organization that's holding them together holding them in place that can be exploited by satan so you're not describing manichaeism you're not saying there's god and then the the opposite of god and there's some maybe equivalence between the two you're saying that god obviously there is an antithesis christ has an antichrist but that it's incoherent and and in you know are you saying that he sort of lack that the devil sort of lacks substance or that's why he needs the humans i'm saying the devil likes coherence coherence is what brings everything into superposition right with itself in other words it allows something to this is going to sound a little bit paradoxical allows something to communicate non-locally with itself okay right all of its

44:48 possible states are in superposition they exist all all at once okay and this is this is uh pretty much inescapable i'm reminded of a writer renee gerard who who has this idea had this idea that uh the devil being who he is is a kind of contradiction of being and it seems to me what gerard says is something similar to what you're saying which is that he requires us to kind of do his dirty work that is correct yeah we give existence to the devil to save now you have to make a distinction however between satan and lucifer for

45:33 example now lucifer is an angel okay that's what he's supposed to do is fallen angel right you know but nevertheless an angel right the angel of light okay the morning star whatever you want to call them okay that is not safe those are two different things what's the difference this would no doubt be classified as a heresy for example in the in the church i did not i did not bring the inquisition with me yet they're not behind the curtains here so so what is your idea then because traditionally it's understood that satan and lucifer are the same person you're saying they're different yes yes how are they different well lucifer walks the fence basically he's the angel of light what does light do basically light is what brings reality to us okay he's walking the fence between good and evil we're all in the

46:19 same boat we all walk the fence between good and evil okay how can we do that okay well through lucifer and the grace of god through lucifer basically lucifer has been exiled here because god can't take won't tolerate the imperfections of this place okay he has lucifer handle that for him and that's why lucifer is is what he is that's how he fell down here to earth okay he's performing a function here that function is light i mean i don't know do you follow what i'm i i do i'm still trying to parse the difference a little if christ says i saw satan fall like lightning from heaven is he describing satan here or he's describing lucifer or both

47:05 if christ were here and i could hear his exact words i could perfectly interpret them right okay yeah yeah but it's very hard to do that you know 2 000 years after the fact right with all the different translations and interpretations that the bible has undergone okay and what i like to do is i like to approach it from first principles and look at it logically right rationally and what does logic tell us if anything okay well logic tells us that basically god needs a negation but that negation is too incoherent to function in this world except through human beings right what's the rest of it what's the rest of it all about yeah and this is lucifer is a concept that is better suited than satan to that purpose i i love this point

47:51 that uh he's incoherent that the old devil is incoherent that i read some poem i think it's a modern poem that says you know sin is a big is a big problem because it's evil but it's also a big problem because it's such a waste of time it's such a way it's so incoherent when you think of people when you actually when you take the suffering out of it and you just think of people committing any particular sin it just doesn't make any sense does it or you think so the sense that it makes to them is they're enjoying it they're hedonistic deriving pleasure from from the sin and of course we all you know have the same pleasure mechanisms so we're all tempted to commit sin but we've got to keep a lid on it there have to be limits okay and what i'm worried about is that now satan

48:36 controls the world and there are certain people involved in running things who don't have those limits well they're so rich they're so you know powerful that they don't need those limits anymore so they're more or less thrown them off now there's nothing new to the idea that uh satan or or lucifer or let's call him just the old uh the old devil himself can is the prince of this world and that the rich and the powerful just they do his bidding and they're bad people and they follow their lowest appetites and their pleasures and they they can be sadistic and so that's been going on for a long time is there something particular about the moment we're living in that says it's actually gotten much worse yes that is they've actually

49:22 we've had such a so many technological advancements that now the the technology of of surveillance and coercion are such and these people are so rich you know they're like black holes gravitating all the money to themselves that they're they're unstoppable okay and because they're unstoppable because they they actually run everything okay we are endangered by them now it sounds to me like you're saying we don't live in uh schoolhouse rock i'm a bill up on capitol hill we're not living in the republic that a lot of us say that we're living in that's correct we're ruled basically the world is globalistic now it's run by globalists that's that's what that's their goal i mean that's what global means we're going global

50:08 you know it's oligarchic and it would therefore be oligarchic that's absolutely correct oligarchic because very few of them actually exist and this is beyond uh you know a u.s senator this is beyond the structure there's no those are puppets you know i i it's it's fairly common knowledge now i suppose that i regard uh most politicians as being one step removed from prostitutes that's been true foreign know a few exceptions but let me tell you they're they're on the run yeah okay so it's uh it's a very serious situation right and if you take a look at these globalists the ones that have thrown off all the limits and they're fantastically rich and powerful now and you take a

50:54 look at what they actually have upstairs i'm afraid it's not very impressive right okay i mean if you really look at their intellectual production soros might be the best of them he's at least got a theory of economics you know it's flawed but you know he at least has that the rest of them are just a bunch of civil rights what about uh i guess even outside of banking or finance per se what about someone like bill gates that guy's everywhere he seems to be i don't know why is he an expert on health care i don't know but my television tells me that he is why is he so someone like that but is he a he's a smart guy he's got to be right he oh he's not stupid bill gates is uh he's got a respectable intellect but there's something misfiring there okay bill is very concerned with uh with

51:41 overpopulation and we do have an overpopulation problem so then this brings me to i asked friends of mine i said speaking to chris langan send in your questions and most of the questions were about metaphysics and god and the ctmu and all of your thoughts on all those things but one friend of mine he said you know i want you to ask him about bitcoin i want you to ask him about money and if they're basically if there's any way to bring break uh the government or super government control of money what do you think of if i want to start my own my own currency i guess i could i'd call it michael coin is there is there any is this one way to push back against an increasingly technocratic global form of government yes there is but it has to start at the local level you're not going to print your own cur world currency to compete

52:27 head-to-head with these you've got to go you know basically attend a few city council meetings you've got to go in there you know say your piece say we've got a problem you know basically the world is run by globalism this is america you know we should have our right of self-determination here but that's being taken away from us see who uh you know agrees with you about it you know i mean somebody will probably come up to you after your speech and say you know i agree with you a hundred percent you then you start you find out who those people are you get together and you start putting pressure on your local politicians are you saying the situation is so bad politically that uh actually you know people will call you a radical and an extremist and a terrorist for something like this but are you saying basically jefferson we need we need to go fight another revolution or something or is there

53:13 i i would just assume see this whole thing resolved non-violently of course i want you know i want peace on earth i want everybody to feel as though we're we're in fellowship with each other the brotherhood of man you know what i'm talking about that is the right way to do it when when you or i or or donald trump for that matter you use the word globalism what the liberal establishment says is oh that's either they'll say globalism is good and we should have more of it or they'll say that's a crazy conspiracy theory there's no such thing as globalism what i could i could point to a lot of international organizations that increasingly try to take power away from national government what are intelligence agencies what are trade secrets what's what's intellectual property they're off property they're

53:58 all conspiracies right okay people trying to get ahead by lying by a mission or relying directly to other people the competition right that's what it is you can't get away from conspiracy it's how the world works as a matter of fact it's game theoretically rational so you're saying not conspiracy theory you're saying just flat out conspiracy that's what makes the world go around i'm afraid you know and oh but of course you know the the elite themselves realize this they know that that's how the world works they just want to distract you well that's that's such a such a great way to put it where you say a trade secret or or just just a group of people come together they say i've got this good idea for a company and we're going to come together and do that and we're not going to let the competition know about it we're going to start this and

54:44 we're going to hopefully it'll be successful and we'll make some money and that is a young foreign leaders i mean everybody's a young global leader right i mean trudeau macron merkel putin you know for the putin deals you that very much surprised me but klaus schwab is on record he's on video in fact you know claiming that vlad putin is one of his young global leaders trained in globalism you know it's funny you mentioned that the young the young wing of the world economic forum when i was a freshman in college you get all of these opportunities for uh internships and fellowships and you get a grant you try to get a grant you see apply to these things i don't know

55:29 anything i don't know anything about any of these groups and so i said i'm a politically minded young man very conservative so it made me very different than my classmates right and one of the opportunities that came across was the world economic forum global change makers were invited to be a part of this no i applied i what did i actually apply i applied and i said i said they said wait a minute well i didn't know what it was so i said what's the experience i said well i'm very involved in this conservative group and this right-wing group and this good way to get ahead i got to give you that well but i'll tell you i i thought i had a good resume it wasn't like my classmates which was a lip they had all their liberal groups so i said i'm a conservative so but you probably want some conservatives here right and i so i apply and you know you're going to be shocked to hear this chris i didn't hear back

56:16 i'm absolutely flabbergasted and my liberal classmates who i felt had a weaker application but they were all part of the liberal groups yes they did get it i guess it makes sense now that i know what the world is socialism i mean what is communism right these things were actually funded they're more or less invented by the central bank you know who funded you know originally was paying marks and engels and before that moses has and other people to come up with you know it's a strategy for world domination it has been for the last 200 years what has changed so so when someone like trump comes along and he says i'm not going to fight this political battle along exactly left right lines or republican democrat but i'm saying i'm going to stand for the american nation and and nationalism

57:01 generally against globalism but he managed to get through he did get elected yes he did were you a trump supporter you don't need to say if you don't as a matter of fact back when people were saying trump can't read look look at the way he hesitates you know he can't he's got trouble with the teleprompter the guy can't read i actually stood up and i said no i said i've met donald trump and i think his iq is probably equal to that of the average harvard professor really yeah oh yeah i i actually stood up for course i never got anything out of it but you know i thought i was doing you know you just said it because telling people that you know basically he is company he's a good businessman you know and therefore could be good for the country and i wanted people to understand that so how did this guy and i i've asked this i've asked this to my friends and i said

57:48 how did this guy who i think was basically on the level and really did at least try to pose a a stopping block to the globalism program how did he ever get elected how'd they let him through well he was a little bit of a wild card trump is not as easily controlled as some of them are so he stood up there and he spoke his mind he's got good instincts in that respect because what he said resonates with what is in the minds of a lot of american citizens we want to have our own country we want america to have first we don't want our borders to be open we don't want millions of third world migrants coming here every year and displacing us from our own territory i mean and trump actually did a good job

58:34 of enunciating that that's how he got elected okay and the first time around you know they weren't prepared yep you know so they couldn't do anything about it the second time around are you suggesting chris that there were some questions about the 2020 presidential election anyone who doesn't understand that that election was shall we say not quite up to snuff is some kind of i because i was told by all the fact checkers and all those social media sensors that if i raised any question i said you know it seems like they kind of violated the law in pennsylvania and it seems like actually they kind of extended the voting periods they said that's that's crazy you're a conspiracy theorist how dare you well that's exactly what they do you see

59:20 you've violated group think so you're out your opinion means nothing would how would you describe your politics populist conservative i was always pretty much of an independent when i was a kid i was basically a democrat working you know i mean my family was democratic you know it was uh i think my stepfather was a you ever hear the wobblies yeah he was an organizer for the wobblies out of out of uh chicago okay and so always i was raised around this liberal attitude so yeah we were we were democrats and i thought okay yeah the working man the people that actually the people that actually hold this country together that keep everything moving you know those are the ones that we should really care about and and you know if we if we're not careful the rich will walk all over them so they need you know somebody to to to to defend them and to take care of

1:00:08 them and you know i'm one of those people i wasn't rich you know we didn't my family had no money at all yeah so naturally i gravitated to that then the democratic party changed okay no longer was it about the working man suddenly it was full of like these billionaire techies that have never done an honest day's labor in their entire miserable lives okay and i realize wait a minute things have changed here yeah there is no more democratic party of the kind that that i used to know about okay that i used to belong to and that's when i became a conservative and a conservative in a stronger sense than most people who call themselves conservatives today because they're really just cuckolded by the liberals no they're afraid they're afraid to say boo to them i mean look

1:00:53 well you know what's funny now i i was told some years ago this was probably 2016 2017 someone said michael you you can't use the word cuckold as an insult because that's uh racist or sex so right and i said look i'm of italian extraction cuckold is the oldest insult in the italian culture that you know even the sicilians have a gesture for them and it's the rock star gesture i think uh i forget the name of the rock star also sicilian who popularized it and very famous i can't believe his name escapes me but that that's not it's the that's the symbol of the cuckold i said there's nothing wrong about you it's a very funny insult and it's descriptive apparently some married apparently there are married couples that actually that's their hobby

1:01:39 right i can't see it myself but not my thing right but and and it's it's obviously it's disordered nobody wants you know i don't think rationally anyone would say that's a good way to uh live your life and what you're saying is that there are people who call themselves conservatives and really they're just squish cuckolded or they just give in it's a figure of speech yeah we're not accusing them of literal cockroaches no they might be i don't know i don't know in the bedroom but basically they are letting the other party wear the pants yeah and they're putting on their little panties yeah and doing whatever they're told that's what i'm saying yeah that's what kind of that's that's the modern rhino the modern republican you know i mean that's what most of them are and believe you me most of them wouldn't do a damn thing for anybody else right

1:02:25 they're basically into their own thing their own self-interest and they just never take any risks on behalf of the american people anymore and that offends me because we're paying them and they've promised to represent our interests and they're not doing it well you look at really basic issues something like immigration well and trump really won on the immigration issue something like immigration this is no insult to anyone around the world who wants to come to the united

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