Ex-TMC MP Jawhar Sircar On Mamata Banerjee's Loss In West Bengal, SIR, INDIA Bloc's Future

0:00 The two very factual reasons are number one, SIR is of dubious legitimacy. I have been saying this of dubious legitimacy and it could be challenged only of the dubious legitimacy because the existing law of the representation of the People Act and the registration of electoral rules never mentions SIR anyway. All these orders are known as Ganesh Kumar Jikki orders, not RP orders. That India lies like that. I've been part of it. I've been the remissary and all that the Dodgem car. They're there together. But sometimes they collide, sometimes they separate, sometimes they shake hands and then they move and then collide. So it's a very dynamic relation. Now that TMK has had a thrashing and the TMC has had

0:50 more than a thrashing, regional what shall I say, regional hubris can take a little back seat. You know, order after order has been passed, which do not support the democratic structure of the constitution by the highest court. And everything has been accepted by everyone, including, and this is the most interesting part, including the volatile Bengal voter who said, We just want her out. And if she has a dumb hit the streets on swearing-in day. Hit the streets on swearing-in day. Have a parallel

1:37 swearing-in day. You know, have a parallel kangaroo court. Have a parallel kangaroo court and see what happened. Kamarag will not move there. Mamata Panajid thrown out into the opposition. may be more dangerous than a Mamata Panerjee. Get us here. Welcome to HW News Network, your one stop show, truth be told, for some engaging

2:27 and thought provoking conversations. Mantha Banerjee held her first press conference after the declaration of the results. It was a bombshell of a press conference which had heaps and heaps of allegations. But the biggest news point of the press conference was that she refuses to resign. She says that morally Trinamul Congress has won and she hasn't lost the polls. If I may give you some details about the press conference which he held. She said she would not resign, insisting that she has not lost the election despite the results and claiming that the verdict was the outcome of a conspiracy. She also said that morally she has won the election and alleged that the verdict was influenced by force. I'm quoting her. She says,

3:15 if I had lost, I would have resigned. But if anyone thinks will step down under pressure that is not going to happen we did not lose the election it was a forceful attempt morally we won the election this is what she said in the press conference but apart from that she also said that she's going to constitute a 10-member fact-finding committee which is going to look into the post-poll violence because the pictures which we have seen are horrifying since last afternoon tmc officers across bengal have been attacked, vandalized. In fact, Mamta Banerjee also alleged in a press conference that the women workers of TMC have been threatened of rape. BJP

4:00 has been forcing the TMC workers to join BJP. This is all what she alleged in the press conference. But her claim that she's not resigning, she's not entitled to go to the Raj Bhavan. This is what she said. Is this going to lead to a constitutional crisis in Bengal and not to forget BJP is thinking of having the swearing in ceremony of 9th of May, which happens to be the Rabindranath Tagore's anniversary, the birth anniversary. Thank you so much for joining this evening. Jawahar Sarkar joins us, columnist, author, and former Rajasabha MP, someone who's been associated with TMC but had to quit the party. Thank you so much for joining. And my first question to you is, how do you make of this press conference where Mahmata Banerjee

4:45 is saying that she won't resign. There is no question of her going to Rajmavan. Now, is this posturing or she's trying to put up a brave face to motivate the Carders? Well, she has made her statement and there's some amount of truth in what allegations she has made. But then, you know, there are processes and processes, procedures, legalities. some of them will take place in spite of her to begin with the house expires on uh the seventh of bay that's two days from tomorrow two two days away so the leader of the house present house

5:33 stands nullified the moment the house is dissolved okay so after that her status is unsure because she is not CM anymore unless the governor asks her to continue for a day or two which is often done two four days otherwise the governor steps in on the 7th of May itself now there are other procedures left for the actual declaration of individual results The Election Commission will be handing over certificates of elections to the MLA's and notifying the Vedansava and the governor. And from the

6:23 8th of May, the process starts that the governor starts looking for the next leader. Usually the person who has the maximum number of MLA's writes to the governor or goes and visits him with a letter and signatures. and the matter gets moving for the next house that we got it. But if Mamta continues with her behavior and what she said that she's not going to resign, can this situation, can this political deadlock lead into a presidential rule in Bengal also? Many people have been saying that. No, no, no. Presidential rule has been a dream for many years. And now that they have actually seized power, the word presidential rule won't be heard. In Bengal, it will be hard for other opposition

7:11 rule states. So just forget that term. It's out of sight now. Now, having said that, her term expires the moment the new chief minister is selected. And if she's been told to be an interim charge, and she's not told to be an interim charge, the governor can actually hold interim charge himself, because it's a matter of day or two only. Okay. So that's the legal position where it stands. What happens? Well, the police withdraw their CM level protection. The CM level cars and other things are withdrawn and moved on to whoever is declared legitimately with the CM. That's all.

7:58 But in her case, in Mamta's case, what I'm not able to understand is that when categorically she's saying in the press conference that I will not go to Raj Bhavan, I will not resign, why should I resign? Morally, I have won the election, I was made to defeat the election. Now, this political posturing, if I may look at it that way, what does it mean and how is it going to translate in terms of the steps which she will take? And how will BJP react to it? Okay. sure she's also made allegations that she was heckled she was thrown out of the center all that she has said so is she going to be thrown out of the same residence also she doesn't stay in the same residence that's one good thing so she can't be thrown out of her residence she can be divested of the same ship so to say now let us look

8:45 into don't get into her style because you know there are this mamta-esque style the modi-esque style mitro and all that we have those styles and we know exactly where mitro is giving you hot gas hot balloons now mamta is uh has this emotionalism connected with her politics where she jumps in and makes statements and perhaps doesn't examine the legality, etc. Maybe if he goes to the court before the next wearing-in, it becomes even more interesting. But waiting in a court or getting the court to stay at this stage is

9:33 impossible. No, but stay for what? Why will she approach the court? No, what will she approach the court? Okay, now the only way she can hold her office, so to say, beyond her term is the court intervenes, which is very, very unlikely. Unlikely. To make the court intervene, she has to have materials enough to convince the court. Now, there's something called estoppel in law that is very dangerous, very dangerous. and she is a victim of her own estoppel that we explain she had been threatening from day one not to cooperate with sir etc etc from day one

10:19 what she did not state properly is why and there are two very factual reasons why and one reason of estimation the two very factual reasons are number one sir is of dubious legitimacy i have been saying this of dubious legitimacy and it could be challenged only of the dubious legitimacy because the existing law of the representation of the people act and the registration of elector rules never mentions sir anyway so all these orders are known as ganesh kumar jk orders not rp orders so she could have done that She went to court on finer counts of this and that, but the legality of this never, never, never was decided by the court who went on to everything else

11:09 other than the legitimacy of it all. That's why. So she lost before it all started. The second thing on which she could have agitated and got the court to decide or work out to make it an issue, Why are you confusing it with citizenship? Now, before she could get terribly worked up on citizenship, Ganesh Kumar did a sly thing. I'll use the word sly because he speaks with three tongues. When he speaks with two, he speaks with three tongues. So once he said citizenship, like, oh, you give me this document, give me that document, And then when he saw the heat building

11:55 up on him on 21st of January, he declared before the Supreme Court, ki nani, I'm not here for citizenship. It's only one of those add-on things, that sort of thing. We are not here to expel people. So he actually withdrew from that ground. Having set fire to the process, that is what it is. The basic mistake that Mamta Bainichi did was to accept a 10-month process in a 5-month frame. It takes 10 months and any civil servant worth his fault, and Ganesh Kumar is not one of them, can know from the procedures and days, you have a particular period for pregnancy. You can't squeeze it beyond time. You have a particular period for maturity, for halting,

12:46 for validation, for everything. So this one is a 10-month procedure, and we can lay it out and see why it's 10 months. Instead of making a case on that, she fought on many other issues, put her down, made her drama, came before the court, said no other chief minister ever comes. Okay, you are a competitive chief minister, you are the leader material, but you actually lost when you consider the 10-month procedure into a five-month job. So then, you know, the heat builds up. We have to finish it now. Now we have to finish it from 10 months. Second big mistake she did was after accepting it, play ball. Every time the names were asked for, she

13:33 went on filibustering. She gave wrong sort of names. It's a typical of a manager to behave like that. She takes everything personal. Very, very personalized style of functioning. So that's what I said. Forget him. Let the civil servants work, for God's sake. If they want 1,700 names out of 24 lakhs, I can give you 1,700 names. Let them work. Don't give a dubious man like Yanis Kumar an opportunity to say you have not cooperated. You gave through your letters and your delays. the exact opportunity Ganesh Kumar was looking for. And the courts followed that. And every time the courts

14:23 started this, the courts mentioned every time, Oh my God, why are you fighting like the two tomcats? This is not happening anywhere else. The courts equated Ganesh Kumar with a legitimately elected chief minister. That's the way he played the game. She lost there. So having lost on so many accounts, then to come back and then say that the halfway line was not near halfway line, it was near my quarterback box, all the rules were violated. Why did you play? Why did you play? You should have just walked up. You see, the Marxists boycotted one full So are you saying that the right step for Mamata Banerjee would have been to boycott the election rather than accepting? Ultimately to

15:13 boycott the election when the Supreme Court decided on such an absolutely unprecedented order of leaving 27 lakh citizens out of the voting process, that would have been enough for her to say I am not taking part. What would be the consequences? But then if she would have boycotted, then would it not have been seen as something to BJP on a platter? Walk over to the BJP. It would have been walk over to the BJP on a silver platter. Okay. What she has done now is to hand it over on a golden platter. You must realize the silver platter would be questionable.

15:58 and she would have the high moral ground. High moral ground that our voters have been left out. She would have asked them, show me the election computer source code. Tell me, does the computer know who are Muslims? Have they been filled with 5000 common Muslim names? How are they only going down to Muslims? Is there a tilt in the computer against women and Dalits? Show me. that independent experts from india and abroad see she would have been on a higher ground instead she allowed the fellow to play the computer was rigged i am saying it is rigged it is rigged because the computer was not the election commission the computer entire sir game was

16:48 framed by the world's most nasty corporate strategists and nasty highly overpaid legal braids there are these nasty groups available for corporate takeovers and raids they were pulled in by some oligarchs or oligarchs of india made it all out and presented to whoever you know who were these people Who were these people? I am telling you from the style and the operations and the thing, words like logically, what is that? Logically discrepancies. Logically

17:36 discrepancies, yes. Oxymoron. Now, these were concocted not by civil servants. Remember one thing, having worked with them for 40 years, if they can be a bad, good, everything, they are not anti-people. A guy coming out of IIT, going through the exam, is house trained not to go against the people. He may have to open fire, some may have to open fire once in a lifetime, the police may open fire once in a lifetime, but they are not anti-people. This is an anti-people booby trap. Either I put you under mapping, unmapped, logical discrepancy, under adjudication. These are terms contrived by absolute thing and handed over to some master who in

18:24 turn handed it over to an ultra loyalist that you execute it. To execute it, you require either a complete sense of fascist dedication to the master and an equally demented brain and a rootness that defies all limits. There is nothing else. He is the rootest elective election commissioner in 2025. So he just executed. What I'm wondering, how is she, like yesterday I was listening to Manitra Manji during the counting when the process was on, and I think in between she spoke to the reporter, so she said she will demand countermanding. Now today in the press conference

19:10 there was no word on countermanding the elections. There is no word of how she's going to hold on to the vote jury issue. Now she's saying that 100 seats have been stolen. If that is the case, there is no roadmap how the election petitions will be filed. At least she should have spelt it out in the press conference, but there was no word about it. I tell you because I have hindsight benefit. The first election that Mamata Banerjee faces as president of the Renewal party was, if you don't mind, when I was chief electoral officer. Yes. We both of us had black hair at that time. So, I've been talking 97, 98, we've gone through that phase. Where she made this terrible mistakes

19:56 is that at every stage of counting, that I told her even then, if you want to countermand an election, then you raise an objection during the first round of counting, you prepare a document you hold back the counting you write your documents with numbers and voter numbers we used to have numbers and this and that you sign it and tell the counting officer he you sign receipt repeat that for the next round repeat that for the next round After 16 rounds where you have objected on numbers, 12 numbers have been stolen, 18 numbers have been stolen and all that, you have made out a case for recount. You understand?

20:43 But if you suddenly decide after 16 rounds with no objection that it was fake, election law says you cannot go in for recount. So she knows the election law, her best advisors have been thrown away. She now has this nephew who again has his iPad to advise. So people who know the law would have advised her the way of saying that you go in for this thing. Even now, I'm telling you one way of appeal that would convince people is that if ex-constituency, the number of voters who have been deleted are said 75,000. or say 30,000

21:30 and the defeat margin is 5,000, 10,000. I can now say that 30,000 has been deleted and 10,000. I will draw on Justice Bachchi's statement and say that you have to consider this fresh. So there are ways out. Tantrum is not a way of running governance. Tantrum. No, but I also want to speak about to you about the politics which she's going to do now. Now, today she said that she's part of the India block. She mentioned how Rahul Gandhi called her. Sonia Gandhi called her. Akhilash has invited her to Delhi. Now, what does that mean? Because when India Alliance was the India block was formed, she

22:18 walked out and, you know, she was noncommittal towards India block. But now she says she's part of the India block. Where do you see Mamata Banerjee now? in the national politics. Will she be part of this opposition group? Because yesterday when the results were coming in, people said regional parties are decimated and now it's advantage Congress. We'll see we'll have a fight which is going to be between Congress and BJP in 2029. But now when Mamata Banerjee has acknowledged the opposition members and she's she has been saying that she's part of the India block. Where do you see her now? If not in Bengal, of course she'll be active in Bengal as well. But beyond Bengal, what is Makita Manji, according to you, going to do? See, it is that, you know, tear the petal, he loves me, he loves me not, he

23:07 loves me, he loves me not, and that sort of thing, where the India block is concerned. Last week when Rahul Gandhi came, When Rahul Gandhi came, he brought a direct complaint against Mamta saying that she is misbehaving without saying here and there. So she chooses to come near on the mood of the day, on the mood of the day, on whichever side she looks at early in the morning. So today it's there. Tomorrow I'll say I'll not sign the petition against the impeachment of the speaker. Day after tomorrow I'll say I'll support Dhankar. Next day I'll say I'll go in for... See, there is no one of the exasperating reasons why...

23:52 You were saying the India block, even though she's part of the India block, India block won't be able to trust her completely. I don't think because nobody knows what's next. What's next? I want to read out Rahul Gandhi's tweet. He has said, I'm just going to quote that exactly, that some in the Congress and others are gloating about TMC's loss. They need to understand this clearly. The theft of Assam and Bengals is a big step forward by the BJP in its mission to destroy Indian democracy. Put petty politics aside, this is not about one party or another. This is about India. He's put a national flag, an icon of national flag, And then he has written that. And so how does one see this? Now, these are, of course, very pleasant overtures made by Rahul Gandhi. But can you trust

24:42 Mamata Banerjee? Are we in a position to say that Mamata Banerjee will be a steadfast player in the India block? And will all of them together take the vote-chorey issue to the street? Can one say that? Have you seen Dorjam Kars? Dodgem cars where nine of them play around and bump into each other, then separate, bump into each other. India, that's like that. I've been part of it. I've been their emissary and all that. Dodgem cars, they're there together. But sometimes they collide, sometimes they separate, sometimes they shake hands and then they move and then collide. So it's a very dynamic relation. Now that TMK has had a thrashing and the tmc has had more than a fashion uh regional

25:32 uh what shall i say regional hoopers can take a little back seat can take a little back seat look at kerala where is where do you see india india one defeated india two okay here in bengal india one versus india two versus india three Let us leave that question and take it out, self to sort out. Let us wait for the next photo ops when seven of them will join hands together and take the photos. I've also done it. So we'll wait for that. I'm a bit cynical about it. So let us see. But how does Bengal election change the narrative,

26:18 the political of the political landscape at the national level? How do you see things changing? Of course, BJP is going to be is going to go at this point of time because they are They will be I mean, there's a saffron surge in West Bengal for the first time in the history. It's a big, big moment for BJP. But how do we see the national politics from here on changing the kind of template which we saw in Bengal, which is called the Bengal template template, where all the political analysts have been saying that the vote has been stolen thanks to the Supreme Court, thanks to Election Commission and thanks to the central government. Nobody is bothered about the right to vote. They have to be in power. Come what may, they will apply all sorts of mechanisms to stay in power. If this

27:04 template is implemented in the states which are to go to polls next year, what happens then? It is being implemented. My earliest point, which I said, was since Mamata Baddiji was on the edge for slaughter, she should have taken the SIR more seriously Yes. As a political contrivance rather than as a political platform. She used it as a political platform. She said, I won't cooperate. She cooperated 200%. Then the Supreme Court stepped in with a completely unprecedented order of handing over executive functions under Section 19 and 23 of the

27:52 Representation of People Act He is going to take care of, accept care of, not care of, from the EROs to judicial officers. So you are saying that from that very step, in a way, Mr. Manchin walked into BJP's trap. It has walked into BJP's trap and the Supreme Court's role is extraordinary. That's the only mild word I can use. A very extraordinarily, extraordinarily helpful role. How and why did you get judicial? Oh, because Bengal officers are all biased. Look at UP. There's no difference between a BJP office and an IAS IPS officer. They all wear telax and patani whether they perform havans in office. You have never thought of such things within UP.

28:42 Look at Madhya Pradesh. Look at some of those Sanghi ruled states. Look at Gujarat. There is the autonomy of officers has been crushed something like 25 years ago. Such wisdom does not dawn upon our honorable judges, that a little bit of separation, little bit of sanitization, little bit of cleansing is required, or is it only for Bengal? So, you know, order after order has been passed, which do not support the democratic structure of the constitution by the highest court. Everything has been accepted by everyone, including, and this is the most interesting part, including the volatile Bengal voter who

29:29 said, we just want her out. So they also, in their urge to throw her out, which was very, very apparent, they said, we just don't care about democratic niceties. state-level acquisitions has taken place. For the Bengal mod to take place in Telangana, a state-level acquisitions has to be there that we just don't care, we want this regime out. So if the people, there was no protest, no protest altogether, the left, the center, the right, no one protested. It's only a few intellectuals, a few thought leaders who protested and still

30:16 protested. They are still horrified at the thought of the Supreme Court of India, the supreme watchman of the constitution saying, yeah, let the constitution take a little break, a little summer vacation with LTC. Take summer vacation with LTC and we'll do the rest in the meantime. Now, this is not When I'm saying this, I'm saying this with the authority of somebody who's held the election done registration. Now let me give you one example to say why it makes me annoy, why it annoys me. 27 lakhs are under adjudication. You know that, I know that. That adjudication could have been done by executive officers as has been done for 75 years

31:03 without complaint. But, ah, this is all the people. Now, let's put it like this. Only a few cases have been determined by high court judges under this tribunal, which is mysteriously located somewhere between calcutta and andabas it's called a place called joka nobody is allowed to come in anyway i'm not getting to that that's for the election commission i'm like i'm bothered about the justice

31:51 part they have determined 2000 cases nobody says what they are doing it's all in whispers you know it's like gulag archipelago that sort of thing nothing happens from the facts revealed from 2000 99% of the adjudication cases have been upheld by my lords. My lords have accepted 99% of the cases. So 27 lakh cases, they will accept 26.9 lakh cases. So deliberately you have kept out 27 lakh cases and nobody shouted. Not even Mamta, that is where I get put off. If she learned how to make an issue, things would have been

32:39 different now that it's all over it doesn't matter in election law it doesn't matter you can howl you can the winds can howl the winds can scream nothing will happen nothing now you have to fight it politically no but my last question to you mr sarkar is that uh i'm taking a cue from what she has said in the press conference that she's not going to resign what is it going to lead to like what you said that is she going to be she might be divested of a post can there be a bigger embarrassment What should she be ideally be doing? Should she not resign and just put up the fight? She has made a statement. She has made a statement. She's to be persuaded to let the things move on their own legal pattern. And if she has a dumb,

33:27 hit the streets on swearing intake. Hit the streets on swearing intake. Have a parallel swearing intake. know have a parallel kangaroo court i have a parallel kangaroo court and say what happened cameras will not move there so there are strategies that she can do so let me let me now flag this interview to mamita banerji and the all india trinamore congress also that this is the advice given by mr javar she should We have let everything else pass. You know, when the hand was on the shoulder, you let it pass. When the hand went further down to the thigh, you let it pass and I'll stop there. I'll stop there. You understand? These are

34:13 estoppels. Why did you allow them to pass? Why did you allow them to pass? And now you're on the wrong side of the law. Given the Supreme Court's mood on Pangaradu, you are always on the wrong side of God because they start with the exasperation thing. She fought like a tomcat for the wrong reasons that you have to understand. It's what I wrote in one of the pieces that you hold your breath, smile sweetly, and then give a backhand smash ever so sweetly. That is the problem with Madam Banerjee with whom some knowledge of working.

35:02 She blows up. That's all. Otherwise, a great street fighter. And she actually, remember what I'm telling you today. A Mamata Banerjee thrown out into the opposition may be more dangerous than a Mamata Banerjee kept us yet. Hmm, because she will then be in her elements. Absolutely. I think you're absolutely right. And this is why we need to watch now very closely what Mamata Banerjee's next moves will be. But for now, I think we are told that the swearing and ceremony in West Bengal will be held on 9th of May, which happens to be Rabindranath Tagore's birth anniversary.

35:47 I'm so glad that the new gentleman knows it. Of course, I'm so glad that he knows that it's Raminath. So somebody must have told some bureaucratist. I don't know. But first, before I wind up the interview, a very brief answer from you that are you happy with the saffron surge in West Bengal as a Bengali who stays in Calcutta? How are you going to take this? No, it has this plus and minus. The plus part of it was the people were completely fed up with corruption, extortion. joblessness. It was like, it's like a Harlem sort of thing. Bengal was moving fast towards Bimaru states, fast towards Bimaru states. Now, and the center

36:36 was revealing in Scotch Earth policy, Scotch Earth policy, which was selective regarding West Bengal. They gave funds from Tamil Nadu in Canada. They would not give funds to West Pringod. And one of the reasons was, Mamata Banerjee would not even accept the funds if they gave them. It's something very personal. That's the whole problem. Now, even if for some time, relationships are established at human level and funds flow and ideas come and things like that, let's hope for the better that these fellows would have to prove their worth. They'll have to prove their word. So something will come. Something will come. But I hope it does not come along with Jayashidam only. And Muslim

37:24 Maro, of course, somebody, the court has said that Maro Varouar is not provocation. I mean, I'm getting amazed at the court. Goalie Maro, Saneco, or whatever is not an offensive statement. We'll make that before the court next time. Because they said it's not an offensive one. Right. Always a pleasure having you on the program. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you.