India Needs To Stop Playing Catch-up, Get Ahead Of The Curve: Ram Madhav || Strat Talks

0:00 In diplomacy there are no permanent friends or permanent force. There are only permanent interests. There is no such thing called soft power. Big countries like America, big countries like China realized that it is not soft power. Not hard power that mean it is strategic power. We have to now give up this attitude of catching up. >> Something is done elsewhere. We have to catch up in this catchup game. If you can catch up with smaller countries, you can never catch up with the bigger ones. >> What we actually have to think about is how do we go ahead of the curve, >> right? >> Today when Cambodia and Thailand are fighting over a temple, >> they're going to Donald Trump for resolution. Why are they not coming to

0:45 you? We need to invest more and remember our playground is going to be Indian Ocean tomorrow. Indian Ocean is the most happening region. We are going to have a competition with China in this region. Whether we like it or not, we are two countries situated in the same geographical region. We have same interests. We both want to be regional powers here in the same region. There's bound to be some amount of competition. Hello and welcome to Strat News Global. You're on our monthly feature strat talks and uh today's guest is uh who's somebody who straddles several worlds. He's a thinker. He's a foreign policy

1:31 specialist, political leader in a way and RSS leader also president of India foundation Ram Madu. Thank you for uh invite I mean coming and uh sort of joining us for this strat talk and uh honoring our invitation. >> Thank you. My pleasure. So u the occasion why we thought we'll invite you was your book uh the new book that you have just published. Uh this is the sixth book I'm told that you have written but uh this is very interesting the new world order uh 21st century global order in India and uh one quick uh read that I gave uh tells me that uh you've spoken about what the future trends are going to look like. you've spoken about 10 uh trends that are going

2:17 to dominate. So uh why this book and uh why do you think these trends are going to be important? >> U firstly thank you for hosting me in this show. I know your show is very popular at least among a particular section of audience I know and uh incidentally this book is also very relevant for that audience. So that's why I'm especially very thankful to you. >> Thank you. Uh see nowadays uh in the last uh a decade or so there is so much uh talk about there has been so much writing talk about a new world order taking shape or the world old world order you know ending and all that. U I I also firmly believe that the world order is ending if if it has not already

3:04 ended and a new order is taking shape. uh but uh to my knowledge not many have so far attempted to give a shape to that new order. How would it look like >> right? >> Uh I considered it very important to try and understand what where the world is going. uh for a very important reason. See today we um in India especially people like me who are on the ruling party side we're are very ambitious and also very very very hopeful about India's future as an important power in the world if you are ambitious to play a role in the world when the world is getting into a new form first of all you have to understand where the world is going what will be the contours of that new world

3:51 in which you have to operate if you really want to play play a role So that's why I attempted to highlight 10 important features of that new world, 10 important characteristics that will probably uh signify uh in this new world order and what 10 things India should do if it is really serious about playing a role there and becoming a leading power. >> I mean here is an opportunity for us to play and give a shape or direction to this new world. >> Sure. >> If only we want to do it, >> right? If we don't want to do it also the new world is going to come in anyway. But my effort was that you know we should try and understand that new world is taking shape and India has to know uh ready get ready for that and

4:37 equip itself for it. >> Sure we'll we'll not give away those 10 trends that we talking about. We want people to read this book. So generally let me highlight two or three points that you've spoken about the new trends that are coming in. One is that you've spoken about a new cold war between the US and China. Uh second is I thought climate change and climate change induced challenges that are coming in. Third is technology. You've spoken about hetropolar world which I found very interesting. So please explain hetroar. >> Oh firstly I I said that which everybody today notices that the west is on a decline. When I say decline, obviously I'm not saying it will disappear or anything like that. It will still be a very important uh power in the world, but its

5:24 influence will definitely reduce. Correspondingly, we also witness the rise of China. These two two important features everybody understands. But between them there is a cold war brewing. We all also see that happening. But the only difference about this cold war from the one that we had seen in the last century was that in the last century these two big powers were fighting between them. The it was a cold war between them >> but uh the others were either silent or they were a part of that cold war politics cold war politics. You are in this block or that block. This time you will see a very different world where there will be a number of middle powers which would stay out of this cold war. You know take if you recall what former

6:12 prime minister of Singapore wrote in an oped in foreign policy in 2019. In 2019 6 years ago he said we know that you both have big issues between you between China and USA. Don't drag us in. >> We don't want to be a party to any of this. Today there are countries which will stand up and say no we don't want to be a party to your cold war. So you are into a multi-olar world where two poles two big poles will fight but others need not join but this is not passivity. >> We will all play a very important role. We will be away from the cold war but we will play an important regional role. So I see the future as uh a future where regional powers will play bigger role than any global powers one or two global powers. So from multi from uniolarity or

6:58 before that the bipolarity we are entering into that multipolarity but I also see that it's not going to end there >> in this new world because there is no dominating global power even these regional powers won't be able to sustain this whole new order so many others will come in today you see big tech corporations they're more powerful I always say this example I went to Hungary for a conference Victor Orban delivered the keynote the very powerful prime minister of that country and in the in Europe one of the powerful leaders. His first sentence was my country faces a big threat from from Jaj Soros. >> Now who is Jaj Soros? Is is he leading any country? Does he have an army? No, he's just an investor. But he can be a

7:43 challenge to sovereign nations today. So is Alan Musk. Now today Alan Musk is challenging Donald Trump the president. So we are entering into a world where tech companies nos in India at least in my party in my moment people tell you you know biggest threat is coming from Ford foundation >> what is for foundation >> how is for foundation a threat to a nation a sovereign nation but that is the real world we are entering into India is a big country probably we don't really appreciate the seriousness of this this this challenge from these forces but the case take the case of small countries >> yes >> which depend on their food supplies on NOS's >> if if USA stops funding them countries will shiver >> so that is the kind of world we are

8:29 entering into that is what I called as hetropolarity a new experience we all have to be prepared for that >> very well explained I think I think Surya we were talking about this about his trends and maybe you have a >> so I was thinking in all this talk of uh a new world order and all that are we um intellectually equipped our foreign policy establishment, political establishment to come up with ideas and structures and a vision for how this will play out. What is India's role in it? Are we working along those lines? >> Uh I'm sure you can comment about it better than me because you deal with so many people in the country, burdened people. Uh I'm afraid we are not fully equipped to tackle the situation. Although prime minister understands it

9:16 that uh the world that we will be facing 10 years 15 years from now will be very different. For example, you mentioned about technology. >> What trade and uh capital was in the last century for countries to rise. >> Sure. >> In this century it will be technology and capital. You may be a $5 trillion economy tomorrow, but if you are lagging behind in techn deep tech or frontier technologies, you are 5 million is not going to help you. >> Right? >> It's not about how much capital you have today, how much technological advancements you have made today. Uh you see we have had uh a recent uh operations in 4-day conflict. Countries which are very small,

10:02 we were heavily dependent on them for supplies. M >> and uh when crisis situation came for smaller things we had to depend on them nowhere compared to our GDPs nowhere compared to our size but they hold that key to technology. So I believe we have to now seriously think about it. We have to of course reach certain milestones in our economy. No doubt we have to reach 5 trillion. >> But in fact I openly said it. I don't mind saying it again. 5 trillion also is not going to take us anywhere. >> For India's size we have to be at least a $10 trillion economy if we really want to play a role. But more importantly more than uh economy it is technological R&D where we are severely lagging. Prime Minister has the vision. Prime Minister repeatedly emphasizing he started

10:48 semiconductor mission 3 years ago 2021 he started quantum mission last year he allocated one lakh cr for R&D this year >> yes >> but uh should only government do all this >> and I don't want to name uh the companies India's largest uh you know multinational companies that we have Indian companies 1% 2% they spend on R&D not even 1% I would say I can give you figure somebody whose balance sheet is 1 lakh 50,000 crores spends uh less than 50 crores on research >> which is >> how does this country catch up >> look at the world where countries are progressing that is because one one IBM one Nvidia

11:34 one company spends you know Nvidia is today as big as our own economy it is a $4 trillion company we are a $4 trillion economy so I think there your point is very important. We need to understand that we have to do a lot of catching up. We have to and not just government. Government is trying but the whole country approach is what is needed. >> That's right. Absolutely. People uh you know have to come up. Companies have to come up. The whole of nation approach >> universities academia. >> No R&D happens. >> No R&D. >> Very little happens. >> Very little. Exactly. Ram you wanted to ask them. >> You mentioned that you know we are lagging behind technology. Could it be that it is partly due to protectionism on the part of the government? People have got complacent. >> I really don't blame the government.

12:21 Government for it. Government doing is trying to do its best to encourage you know see uh because you deal with defense in a big big way. Big time you deal in defense. We have entered into a new new era in defense production also from you know big company era era of big companies like Loheed and others to uh startupization today startups are the future for defense technology also in the whole world that's why prime ministry is putting lot of emphasis on startups and startups taking up bigger responsibilities and all that uh India has a success story in startups obviously we have actually uh around 250 startups uh which have been able to rise

13:07 huge in investments u but uh is that enough is enough happening I still doubt the problem is uh one of course is our bureaucratic setup we have lot of regulatory systems in place uh how much encouragement startups get how much freedom startups get you know in India failure is never taken positively. But the startup by very definition is that you attempt five times, you may fail five times, you will succeed the sixth time. Are we giving that scope to our startups? >> That's right. >> Or if he comes up with the product, don't lie, you dismiss him. >> Yeah. And you also sometimes encourage what I've seen in the defense sector since you mentioned defense is that you

13:54 give them the first uh tranch or first encouragement but there is no followup which then and they get bought up bought out by you know foreign companies. >> Oh yeah in fact our unicorns you know I mentioned about 240 250 of them 145 of them were taken over by the foreign venture capitalist and investors and all that. So even if we are trying to do R&D ultimately it's going to a foreign company >> and technological sovereignty is what is what we should aim for actually >> data technology these are going to be very crucial >> AI is going to be very crucial but this is what is happening and the principal scientific adviser was here in our studios like you are and he spoke about the quantum mission the AI mission where you know government is really putting a

14:40 lot of effort there is a prime minister scientific advisory council which is you know sort of looking at that entire sector what to do for deep and emerging technologies but uh today's foreign policy is also dependent on you know how our bureaucrats can uh deal or I would say negotiate technological sovereignty or technological discussions with other people so I think Surya's question there was also about whether our bureaucracy is also keeping you know up with the demands of the new uh diplomacy >> yes I The challenge lies at multiple levels bureaucracy right from there to academics to even industry to ultimately to the startups also. What where in fact you mentioned about principal scientific

15:26 adviser coming on your show also >> with all humility. I want to say something here >> which should be taken positively by my own leadership also. Of course not you also see uh we have to now give up this attitude of catching up. >> Something is done elsewhere. We have to catch up. >> In this catchup game you can catch up with smaller countries. You can never catch up with the bigger ones. What we actually have to think about is how do we go ahead of the curve >> right >> now I give you an example today you talk to any defense leadership they will say we are investing heavily on drones >> how much you are investing in anti- drone technologies >> very >> drones you probably can manufacture at some point today we can't do it we can

16:12 only assemble today >> yes >> but today's challenge is to China there is a there was a news item one week ago that they are going to position 10 million drones along India China border or India divide border whatever you want to call it. >> Now how do you hand do you want to have 10 million drones on your side to position against them? No, what you need is >> counter >> counter drone technologies. We don't have do you know with all humility again I'm saying we don't have leisure technologies in India. >> No not yet. The directed energy weapons are not there. Leisure technology is not there. >> You need great research into that area. You need startups to develop those technology. If a if a technology startup is coming forward to do something in leisure you should invest more in that. He may fail for first two years but give him a chance. >> Yeah absolutely. So that is where I

16:59 think right from our scientific establishment to all others have to change the whole attitude. I don't want to catch up. >> Correct. I will set the agenda. >> I will go a little one step forward. No, that's what China did. >> Yes. >> China and USA have a very important uh very important policy I mean advantage in this sense that there is complete civil military fusion. >> That's right. There is nothing called civilian research and military research separate. Everything is integrated. >> Whatever IBM or Nvidia does is always available to CIA and American army. >> Same is the case in China. But in our case >> silos >> silos silos is so much since our principal scientific advisor mentioned about these missions.

17:45 >> May I tell you in none of these missions there's any military personnel. I know in fact that is what >> but these are all quantum is to be used by military >> military exactly >> but there's no military guy who's sitting there >> so one private fellow came to me some quantum thing that he has developed I said where what is the application he said across I said have you spoken to people he said no I've only spoken to military because I was in the military that that is how you're right absolutely the silos have to be broken but Ki maybe you wanted to ask him >> I actually I'm interested in knowing how what you think of our foreign policy should it be more value based as there was this approach or should it now become more transactional because that's also what we're seeing happen in the world today. >> In fact, my India part starts with that question. I said first of all, it should

18:31 not be romantic >> which was there earlier. >> We we have this whole problem. Uh you see I studied internal relations a little bit in my masters. So one of the first lessons taught is diplomacy. In diplomacy, there are no permanent friends or permanent force. There are only permanent interests. That is the bottom line. When you do any foreign policy, what is your interest or what do you see as world's global interest? We have to have foreign policy on that touchstone only. This whole romantic approach about you know I mean slogans are fine. You can talk about Osvakam or earlier Nehut used to talk about many other things that's fine

19:16 but when it comes to brass tax it has to be national interest and what you see as in the interest of the world in that I would say that our government the current government has tread that path very cautiously this issue of strategic autonomy people have not invested enough on that it was a very important aspect of our foreign policy and very correct and successful aspect. So I would say to your question values yes as long as you know your national interest is intact beyond that you tell me I'm just asking as a simple Indian uh you know who believes in Indian scriptures and all in the entire Mahabharat war

20:01 the number of koras who were killed show me one person who were who was killed in the so-called righteous way >> one one Corva you would show me >> was dura killed like that was karna killed like that was bishma killed like that >> everyone was >> where where was the values except >> but that is that is the that is the norm in war dharma yudha means dharma should win that's the yudha you have to make so what we believe as good for our country and good for the world is what we should pursue we should not get into that whole romantic approach of human rights civilians dying and all that yes certain things we don't like you while skimming through your book I stumbled upon this phrase that you've

20:48 used called dharmocracy >> could you just elaborate on that what it means >> so that was the last part I in fact what I said was once you are able to achieve all the other things that I mentioned in the book ultimately when you want to play a role in the world what is that role is it the role that probably USA played last uh in the century or it's going to be different. If it is going to be different, what is the difference? What is the different thing that you are going to bring on the table when you want to play a role on that? We have to invest a little bit. For example, uh in that whole uh new discourse between uh uh the western worldview and the Chinese worldview which now today wants to

21:33 dominate the the global uh politics. Both have their own views about what kind of a world they want to make. West wants a liberal democratic world order. We are not against democracy nor are we against liberalism. But the democracy of the western model is what we want uh the world to continue with or you want to add something more valuable to it. We have to think about it because when democracy was introduced in India, Nehuru was asked and Nehu said we will go with the Westminster model. That was never simple reply but Gandhi gave a different reply. Gandhi said you see I don't fully understand the meaning of these western words also although he always understood but he was so humble but he said for me democracy in India

22:19 should mean the weakest shall have as much power as the strongest. So he goes on to say that you see until you win the elections you follow a majoritarian path. Once you win the election, no majoritarianism. In the west, it is understood as only majoritarianism and it is not working. It's not delivering. Today, you know, I remember 20 years ago, Far Jakaria wrote that book illiberal democracies. >> He identified a number of democracies illiberal. Today, authoritarian democracies, that's the order. >> You have a democracy, but you have a leaderdriven democracy. >> So, democracy is also changing. Can we add something more to it? We have to think about it in that our experience our value system can uh give you lot of

23:05 new insight new ideas although it's getting uh too I mean too long let me add one thing because sometimes we feel that what is there for us uh to offer from our own wisdom last year in 2024 World Economic Forum the new messiah of world capitalism unfortunately they are the ones they are the ones who brought capitalism they are the ones who created all the havoc in the world and they are the ones are giving you new capitalism also but they came out with a paper it's called stakeholder capitalism >> now what is stakeholder capitalism they explain they say until now we only knew shareholder capitalism >> like you know if there is a capitalist venture in that you should worry about your shareholders >> who is investing should get good profit

23:52 >> that has been our thinking but in this new situation we have to think not only of shareholders but also of the wider society in which to operate. >> Now what is this? This is what Gandhi said. Gandhi academics was he used to call it dhmakarta and a trusty ship. >> You are the owner of so much property but you should go beyond your own interest and look about the interest of the whole society. Now if world economic forum says that in a very in a refined language language and say share stakeholder capitalism we are lapping up >> right >> why can't India give ideas >> we can give but unfortunately >> we are very lethargic we don't want to take much trouble you know lethargic not only in ideas that's why I'm saying why

24:38 we are not able to do R&D >> not because we are not capable for Nvidia two nanome semiconductor chip is being manufactured in Bengalur is being designed in Bengalur and being done by all Indian engineers. >> We have the capability but generally if you ask the industry their view is if I can import it at such a low cost we should invest on this. >> Yes. I think that has been approach so that lethargy we have to shed we have to give up. What I meant by dehmocracy was that in the end when you enter that reach that place of giving something to the world what is that something that you give you should be clear China is clear >> when they become the dominant force they have an idea about what kind of world they want to build are we clear we want

25:24 to become guru but when you become vishuru what is it that you you will continue to do >> what is what that you are offering but that's a great point at which we'll take a short break uh don't go way we are in a fascinating conversation with Ramad on foreign policy, India's values, value based foreign policy maybe and what India should do in the chaotic world that is emerging right now. Don't go away. Journey to the roof of the world. A most holy pilgrimage. Rare chance. Call it detox if you want. [Music]

26:14 Watch me Nathan Goklay on the Kailash manseratra on strat news globe. >> Welcome back to strat talks. We are in the conversation with Ramad. So uh sur wanted to ask you. >> Yeah. In this entire thing about strategic autonomy and all as we've seen we seem to be alone even during operation Sindur we were largely alone okay during Pelgam there were expressions of support and all that but um at the end of the day when the military thing happened uh we were largely uh left to our own devices you know nobody in that sense came out to say okay we're with you even the Russians didn't uh probably I disagree with you on that

26:59 we as far as operation Synindor was concerned we were definitely not alone. uh we had enough support in terms of uh uh in terms of uh military equipment and all from countries from where we were procuring the equipment but it was a very short conflict as we all know it was a just a 4-day conflict and whatever support we needed we already had it available for example S400s came in very handy for us in this conflict there were Russianmade weapons we had weapons from Israel we had weapons from Poland several countries But uh in the in the broader context of whether we are isolated talking uh repeatedly about strategic economy is it making us an isolated power in the world I don't

27:46 really think so in fact uh if you just recall between 22 and 25 today 2025 today the number of countries that are standing uh I mean are staying out of that uh big power conflict at the United Nations has increased uh today to almost 45 50 countries you know the uh the latest Ukraine resolution at the United Nations 40 plus countries said we don't want to take sides initially we were the only one or maybe a couple of others when we said in 2022 that we want to have that autonomy we don't want to take sides but once we took that stand Saudi Arabia decided to stay out they said no we don't want to take any sides um uh UAE a

28:35 big countries like Ind Indonesia. So about 40 45 countries took that queue from India are today standing up. So strategic economy that way uh is uh is a a policy that today many countries want to trend you know to to follow but you know each country has its own uh its own uh compulsions its own relationships with different countries. I don't think that we are isolated even on uh this operation sindur for an important reason which honorable prime minister explained yesterday. Uh almost all the countries in the world stood by India as far as the question of terrorism and you know fighting against terror is concerned. Everybody stood by us.

29:20 We have this expectation that you know country after country should name and blame Pakistan directly. But may I ask you did it ever happen in last 70 years at least 30 40 years we have been suffering from this crossber terrorism did in any previous on any previous occasion any country stand up and say Pakistan is to be blamed directly they never said it they even in spite of us providing audio evidences in 2008 in they all blamed terrorist organizations they sent you know FATF after Pakistan to ensure but nobody really openly said Pakistan is to be blamed because that's how international politics works that we understand today probably because there is Modi G there is this expectation that

30:06 now everybody should Modi is such a strong leader we should do it geopolitics is slightly different but that doesn't mean uh either we are isolated as I said every country supported us in our fight against terror nobody as prime minister nobody asked us to stop the war we ourselves took that decision secondly nobody really supported Pakistan except >> those countries those known countries you know China of course Chinese weapons they used big time >> and this time Turkey >> a new middle power which is raising that's why I said we are in that era of middle powers where countries like Turkey can take an independent stand so uh in that sense our policy of the strategic economy at a time when world is passing through this transition you know this is big on a lighter note

30:52 previous world order is called international liberal order or liberal international order whichever way you call it. The new one that is taking shape is neither international because it's all nationalism driven nor liberal because mostly conservatives are coming back to power in many countries. Unfortunately is a disorder also at the moment. So we are in the phase of the disorder but the disorder I consider as the symptom of the change that is happening that interum. So we may find the disorder in that period of disorder strategic economy is the best way uh for India to pursue >> the churn will bring out the best uh >> yeah let let the best and the strongest come >> let the world take a shape >> correct >> then we will decide what >> what needs to be done for so in that

31:37 context let me talk about the work that you do as president of India foundation you know one of the conferences that now has got established and now is seen as a important voice is the Indian Ocean conference that you do every year and uh Indian Ocean in your your view uh how important is it for the world and of course for India? >> Uh see I discussed it uh in my India part in this book about one of the things that India should probably do a make a slight shift. We Indians by temperament are westward bound, westward ho. We believe that our our interest of future is tied to the west. When we say west uh western Europe and America largely look forward to look up to those countries. Fair enough. We have had a

32:24 lot of uh benefits from that approach and today we have very strong ties with America and uh we have with UK and we are concluding a free trade agreement with EU also. That's an important thing. But uh in the new order you have to first rise as a regional power. >> U in order for you to play a role in the world you have to be a regional power. >> Sure. >> That region is what is this Indian Ocean >> not even Indo-Pacific. >> Uh Indo-Pacific is a strategic construct. You work in the strategic area. >> American concept really. Uh yeah I mean you probably can say that >> but it's a strategic construct. >> Indian Ocean is a natural construct.

33:11 >> When you say Indian Ocean many people don't understand that Indian Ocean is a group of 36 countries. >> Remember European Union is only 27 countries. Indian Ocean as a region has uh millennia old civilizational, historical, trade, people-to-people relations. >> Yesterday the ambassador of Korea was with me. >> They fondly remember and want to do more about the princess of Korea coming and marrying the prince of Aayotaa. We have a memorial for them. No, that's the kind of relationship you enjoy in this region. It's a very relationship based on goodwill. But have we really worked on it enough? Today when Cambodia and

33:57 Thailand are fighting over a temple, >> they're going to Donald Trump for resolution. Why are they not coming to you? >> We need to invest more. >> I'm not saying we have not done anything. We need to invest more on this region. We had Lucist policy in '90s which has been upgraded to activist policy after the taunt by Hillary Clinton in 2011. I don't know hope your viewers also remember that in 2011 she came for that observ program in Chennai in which she said you have this look policy but you have been looking east only not doing anything so do something act east but after Modi G became prime minister we have we are working very actively with the eastern part also we have upgraded our relationship with

34:44 ASEAN to comprehensive strategic partnership today in 2022 uh but uh have we done enough in that region? I still feel we have to do much more. There is lot of goodwill, lot of positivity and remember our playground is going to be Indian Ocean tomorrow. Indian Ocean is the most happening region. 80% of world's container trade passes through this region and uh you know any given day you take a satellite picture hundreds of submarines are roaming around in this region military submarines it has become militarily active and for us it is lifeline sir 95% of India's external trade depends on Indian Ocean 95%. because we don't have open uh road I mean land connectivity so we need to invest

35:31 more on that region that is the idea with which we started this Indian Ocean conference in 2016 many people asked that question that why Indian Ocean why not Indopacific because we were reactivating quad at that time but our idea is that while quad is an important uh you know strategic alignment we have we have to be active there India's real playground is Indian Absolutely >> there we have to invest much more and countries in the region look up to India >> they do they do and I've attended thanks to your invitations I have attended many of these Indian Ocean conference >> no today I can tell you when we even if we don't announce it we start getting calls from country when is the next one we have to block the dates of our foreign minister 26 foreign ministers attended musket conference earlier this

36:17 year next year we are hosting it in Maicius so it has become a good calendar event for countries in the region. India and all other countries have to now invest more on this arrangement. >> No, it's a great initiative in that sense. But Ram, you wanted to ask some >> you know we talking about the region as a regional power. SARKC is dead in the water. BIMC nobody really knows what's going on there because of various things happening and China now wants to launch a regional grouping. So what are your thoughts on that? Oh, so the precisely that's why I said that we have to probably pay more attention to it. We have one big problem in this region namely Pakistan that we all know anyway. So we we wanted to bypass that challenge. So we started BIMTec. We went

37:04 into BIMst Bimstack now uh currently uh our secretary general is there India is leading that group. So we are trying to reactivate it and uh earlier this year BIM summit happened in Thailand. prime minister went uh it's actually a very tragic story you are right bimc was started some 25 years ago or more than 25 years ago in last 25 years it met at summit level only five times >> exactly whereas sark you since you mentioned sark in its life of same period about 25 to 30 years it had 18 summit meetings >> so sark was that more active >> now it's dead >> but we have to reactivate bimstack I really take that point but beyond bimstack is the Indian Ocean region

37:49 where you have right from eastern side of Africa to ASEAN to the island nations in western Indian Ocean whether it is seals or Madagascar or Maldives or Maishas and all these countries Camros all these countries so we have to now focus more on these countries prime minister is definitely investing a lot of his I mean a lot of focus on this region he was there in Maharish for the national day he was there in Maldus for their national day And uh the system also has to catch up. Even then we are going to have a competition with China in this region. Whether we like it or not, we are two countries situated in the same geographical region. We have same interests. We both want to

38:35 be regional powers here in the same region. There's bound to be some amount of competition. We have to manage that competition. Easiest way some of the Mandarins think is run away from here. Go to where there is no competition. Western Europe there is no China competition. So go there. Everybody will welcome you because everybody is equally anti-China as you are. So easy to deal but you have to really play a role where you have real competition. Right. >> Absolutely. >> That is where I think we have to put more energies. >> But we have some kind of a how would I say goodwill in terms of our historical connection with the region which doesn't are we exploiting that? Uh so when prime minister uh introduced his nuances to foreign policy he identified five areas. He called it punchamut. >> Uh it started with s

39:22 every Indian should get respect. India should get respect globally. Uh then sad greater engagement not just G2G or G2B it has to be much wider at society level and all that. So if you see prime minister's uh uh you know calendar on any given day he meets with at least uh a couple of uh businessmen noble academic some experts some dancers some musician he keeps engaging with different types of people when he goes on travels to other countries he not he makes it a point to meet with the elite of the that country not just business leaders or political leaders so that greater engage engagement he added two things generally we do economy and defense relationship Bishop is a normal thing we do in foreign policy. But the fifth thing he added is what you

40:09 mentioned culture. >> Until then in foreign policy, culture used to be considered as a non-scular issue. >> Now I know there was an occasion uh when uh in Bali that Bali University wanted teachers in Agama Shastran Jotisha. >> This was when Waji's government was there. >> Rotine reply went >> that we are a secular government. we can't provide that service >> whereas we have strengths in that I mean as a country >> but today we sent we sent those teachers from India >> from Gujarat and elsewhere we sent they teaching teaching in >> I mean they wanted that kind of thing I was in Vietnam they wanted these charm temples got activated now in Cham region in Vietnam temples got activated they

40:54 don't have priests >> priest so >> so they approached our embassy there asking if we can train priests their priests if they can send them to India can we train them. Now it's a dilemma for foreign policy whether we should agree to train priests in India. So but in these areas we are now taking some initiative using the cultural goodwill, historical civilizational goodwill um as a means of promoting our foreign policy interests also. I think it's a very important dimension which we should pursue. >> Absolutely. I think that's happening. >> In fact, culture was one uh dimension, shared heritage is another. But what about soft power? because uh we need to create a voice for India that reaches a wider audience and in that sense are you seeing us take those steps or there's a

41:40 lot more that can be done in that space this before 1998 has anybody in the world you were also active in media at that time talked about soft power one guy in America Joseph Nai coined this phrase today we are discussing so seriously >> big countries like America Big country like China realized that it is not soft power not hard power that doesn't mean it is strategic power. You need to have that strategic power in in order for you to use your soft power also and hard power also. Otherwise what is the understanding about software in India? Punjabi kana >> movies Bollywood movies

42:25 >> Bollywood movies. But before we coined this word software itself, they existed in all over the world. By themselves, they are not going to help you in any way. You know, China believed in the software theory under >> they started this confusious institutes all over the world. 500 of them >> Nepal they started now they realize it's not going to help. They are winding up one after the other. They're shutting them down. >> 10 years ago that was a topic of discussion. >> That's a threat. threat of water. >> Now, now China understands that my confusion is not going to be my strength. My technology is going to be my strength. Today, it is ruling the world using technology.

43:10 >> So, that's why I said certain things we become generally romantic. We catch some phrase and we hang on to it. We have to be very careful even on issues like Vishwaguru. You know I always say this we Vishwaguru we can't declare ourselves as vishu guru >> people have to say >> the world has to say that >> what you're saying is essentially speak softly but carry a big stick >> but yes yes yes but but you have to understand what is my power >> that is the strategic power I am saying that strategic power we have to develop in that if you can use software use it >> but software by itself is not a power >> no absolutely that's true you any thoughts before we wind up No, I was just generally thinking the way um even utilization of soft power.

43:57 You think that is something which a government should do or it's better left to you know uh society or cultural organizations and so on to do it? >> Oh yes I mean obviously it is government has very limited role in it. It is society which naturally has to do it. What is in real sense strategically soft power if you ask me what is the strategic software we have I would say diaspora >> which I think the prime minister has identified right at the beginning >> he understands that's why he initiated you know when I was involved in the process right from the beginning first three years I handled that that initiative about diaspora >> what we thought at that prime minister's thinking was that this diaspora is there

44:42 it is at the most doing some remittances to India >> beyond that what is his ro they are of course they are promoting Indian kana they are promoting Indian music and all that but what is it that I'm getting as a country >> so then he said that look two things they have to do one they have to be active in the public life of their host country >> if you are in Australia you only don't have to only say Modi Modi that you have to anyway love Modi G you do that but what are you doing in Australian politics >> you are the citizen of Australia you have to be an active participant in the public life there number to being an active member how do you strengthen the relationship between our two countries >> between the host country and your home country. So that is where that software diaspora software can be used in a big

45:29 way that prime minister understood and I can tell you today that has been a big help to us in our foreign policy prime minister that one initiative has been very helpful today you go to any country Indian community is so very active in local politics today >> the feedback is so important from them because they are locally active >> no they they're very active in fact last week on the capital hill >> uh some Indian guys reached out to more than 70 congressmen and discussed with them in detail about operation Sindor. >> Um it was their own initiative about terrorism we thought that India is facing. >> That's the kind of activity we we today are able to generate from the diaspora. So that's a great uh thought on which we

46:15 need to conclude this conversation and I think that also sums up the new world order which is emerging which is not yet fully taken shape but India needs to be the main part or a main driver to shape this world even as a middle power or a regional power. Thank you very much for the great insights. We are really know privileged to have you and listen to your insights because you travel around and you meet different people. I think uh my editors would also be you know very happy to benefit from what we have discussed. So uh thanks very much for coming. >> Thank you. Thank you for hosting me. >> Thank you. [Music]