The Roundtable | Delhi Gymkhana Club Row | Security Concern or Political Symbolism?

0:00 [music] >> Hello and welcome to the NewsX Sunday Guardian roundtable. Well, this week we're going to be discussing the Gymkhana Club controversy, but also taking a look at beyond it. Because to quote what Veer Sanghvi wrote in his column recently, I think that line really struck me when he said that you cannot make prejudice the basis of public policy. I mean, why is the Gymkhana Club being targeted by the Modi government? Is it just a physical space or is it also the mind space? What Gymkhana Club really represents? Of course, we've heard all the people who are not part of the Gymkhana Club saying that oh, this is the Lutyens elite. This is the you know, very privileged mindset. But as Sanghvi points out and so do some of my panelists on the show today, the Lutyens elite, I mean, this

0:47 government has been in power for the last 10 years. So, the new elite is actually the BJP government in power and its cronies and its people, thought leaders, its supporters, its the all the right-wing people who empathize and sympathize with the government. Those are the new Lutyens elite. So, while Gymkhana Club if you take a look at the membership, it is actually made up of people from the army, people from the bureaucracy, and yes, some also from private business people, but largely they are honest middle-class taxpayers. Compare that to the new to the people who live around it in the various Lutyens Delhi bungalows and take a call as to who is the new elite and why is this propaganda being spread? Also, is this the the end all? Because there are other clubs that are being targeted from the golf club to the race course. Will

1:33 Bombay's clubs are going to be targeted? Kolkata's clubs also? So, where will this stop and what is the real thought behind it? Is security really the reason? That is something I'm going to be discussing today with my panel. I have with me Ambassador Pawan Verma. He's a former Rajya Sabha MP and an author and also a member of the Gymkhana Club, but someone who's been voicing a very balanced view. He's been saying that every club does admit elites. That is the whole nature of a club that you admit a certain sort of people. But if the membership is open to all, everybody can apply. And he also questions the point that I had raised, which actually I got from him, is that Lutyens elite is spread not just to Jimkhana Club, but the various government bungalows around it, even the Rashtrapati Bhavan. So, where will this stop? That's something I'm going to be asking Pawan to further tell us. I also have with me

2:18 Yashowardhan Jha Azad. He is a former IPS. He's been the special director IB. Again, someone who's been also a member of the Jimkhana Club. And he's been arguing that, you know, why is this a selective dismantling of an institution? And if they really want this space, well, if they want to do it for a larger social equality, you know, excuse, then make it either Gaushala or a shelter for stray dogs, or for a slum, you know, develop some rehabilitation for the slum slum dwellers. Why are they, you know, pushed off to some banks of some Yamuna? Why not right in the center of the city? If this is actually an equality drive. And Sandeep Ghose, he's I think a member of many clubs, but not Jimkhana Club. So, it'll be very interesting to see what Sandeep has to say. I have not yet had a debate with him.

3:04 So, I really want to ask him what his point of view in all this is. And for full disclosure, I'm also a member of Jimkhana Club. And I think now it's time to, you know, for the members to stop feeling apologetic or, you know, not because those who are for the club have not held any shows I've seen. Anchors who are members of the club, but want to tow the government's line are holding shows. People who are not members of the club of course attacking Jimkhana Club. So, why are we not defending our own? Also joining is Tehseen Poonawalla, an advocate and someone who has been also a member of the club. >> Um sorry. >> I'm also an associate member. >> And I I just want to say an associate member of Jimkhana, but he's member of other clubs. So, good to get his view on club life. Pawan, I'm going to begin with you first, you know, can you tell us where you stand on this argument?

3:50 >> Thank you, Priya. You more or less summed up the various sides of the debate. But, you see, the government for any leased land is the supreme landlord. And if it feels that it requires a particular land for a particular purpose, then land acquisition is not an unheard of phenomena. It is free to resume the land. But uh in particular reaction which has been seen by a lot of people in your quoting by it, I I did say that the reasons for which the government is demolishing an institution which was set up in 1940,

4:36 125 years old, they need to be convincing, they need to be genuine, and they need to be something in the larger public interest. Uh merely the fact that the Gymkhana Club is an elitist club, yes, it is an elitist club, that is on expensive land, yes, it is an expensive land, yes, can it be redeveloped for other matters, including national security and defense, the government will make its purpose clear, but yes, it can. All land can. But, especially where the elite tag goes, I have argued that in that case, the government of India should develop the entire lot of

5:23 Lutyens' Delhi. Lutyens' Delhi in a city where 50% is officially said to be a slum, hm, has been built and developed on a basis where often an individual family lives in a bungalow of three to five acres. It could be ministers, it could be members of parliament, it could be senior bureaucrats, it could be armed forces generals, it could be judges. And now, in such a scenario to target the Gymkhana Club and to say that now suddenly you require it for security and defense purposes seems to me if possible, avoidable. Uh the fact of the matter also is that if

6:10 you take the Gymkhana Club on these grounds where will you make a stop? >> Yes. >> There's also the Indian International Centre, there's the Habitat Centre, there's Tollygunge. There is uh Wimbledon Club. I mean, there are clubs all over the country. So, that's my essential point that the government's specific purpose, to which it is entitled needs to be of of a transparent nature which is convincing. And which can tell the 80% of the membership of the Gymkhana Club consists of the bureaucracy and of the armed forces. That a particular place which was created for them like there are other heavens for other

6:56 people. >> Mhm. >> Uh needs to go with time. They need to be convinced of it. That's the point I made. Yes, the club is not perfect. Yes, the club has been accused of financial mismanagement. Yes, the club has factions which openly wash their dirty linen in public. Yeah, but the management is now with the government. Bring in the reforms that you want. Make it less elitist. Change the uh mix of the programs. Allow for greater democratization. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater in my view is excessive and I would appeal to the government to reconsider its its decision. >> Thank you, Pavan, for that opening statement. Uh Yashu, I have you know, I

7:42 if you would I I've been watching you on various television debates also. If you could explain your stand first about Jimkhana Club in the next round I'm going to talk to you about the mindset really that this represents. >> You see, my first reason which I've given is ostensibly the ground given is security and defense. Now, Jimkhana has stood there during the times of real turbulence. So, whether if you see it was the Punjab terrorism, whether it was J&K terrorism, whether it was a parliament attack and then you had a series of attacks in the country. This was the most turbulent phase. So, either the prime ministers were in there on one side or when and then Indira Gandhi was assassinated and this thing was built. So, then they

8:27 were on the other side. So, except Prime Minister Chandra Shekhar, all of them were in this particular area. And secondly, the security concerns which they are talking about what flashed out in a meeting in Jimkhana, I think it's around 2017 in which the SPG was there, the IB was there, everyone was there. And so, almost everything was sorted out and in fact it was Mr. Arun Jaitley who came for even the inauguration of of that swimming pool, you know, when that was constructed after the objections were taken care of. So, you know, this reason given is absolutely does not hold water. Now, what is the need for a defense establishment at this particular point of time and at this particular place? I fail to understand unless you want to

9:14 grab the entire area of the PM House complex also, which will be vacated now, with the Jimkhana and put up another monstrous, you know, government complex. Now, that will be that will be drastic and tragic for Lutyens. Second thing is, as Pawan said, I agree with him. Agar a culture saying Narazgi at the sorry clubs bunker though or after school bull got to go to Sarkari club so say but I had a shock of hotel. Who's got your back? Constitution club head. A state Bhavan say. Western court head. Tell me I mean what are we talking about? There are so many talking about leases. 60,000 leases out

10:00 there. Should there be a public you know audit of all the leases and then take a decision? What I'm saying is your decision you have the you know government has the power definitely. Government also has the power to put Ram Rahim on parole 16th time. He has gone for about 30 days. That's power you exercise the power. When you exercise any power it should be exercised with fairness, discretion and by the way even Supreme Court has said to come to come South Jesus and Jesus come to come down and then you know if this talk about rich versus the poor. I have given very clear suggestions. If you make the whole thing

10:46 into a Gau Shala which is a national program all the states are doing it's fine. If you if you want to make it as Supreme Court directed a stray dog shelter absolutely fine. Nobody will oppose. Third, if you want to make it a slum rehabilitation center just across the road race code made a series of slums. Nobody will mind or the lowest housing scheme. But you could also do something which is very very important and it's a pending proposal for two decades. You know what that is? That is that there should be one complex in Delhi where all the highly threatened personages should be put together. That is the ministers and all that. Will you all agree? I think that's a brilliant suggestion. And the

11:33 last point, mismanagement which Pawan again referred to is that the key mismanagement of our club may hold that Jai Baba resident welfare society here and a big good say about the mismanagement. Club get dues on just code is clear way 2015-16 may uh well brother >> LND of >> Huh? What say about get there and Jim Connor court may get Jim Connor court may get court may matter take that nobody sees anything picture of past seven years government committee have always been dealing something to see membership got problem resolved got something to see mismanagement of 50 crores that what say about maybe got something to see or you know the last point which I which I want to say is I put across is that you know there are certain social

12:18 spaces in metro. I mean these are breathing areas where you know some people can meet some people you meet diplomats diplomacy doesn't you know only come in from high commissions and you know big Hyderabad houses it also comes in these parlors which which various have with academicians with uh CEOs with various kinds of people and many of them say also oh this is something which I'll take back you know things like this so if you want to destroy a social space in the name of elitism egalitarianism well I mean it doesn't convince anybody but you can certainly do so you can look at it as an elite club or a civic legacy and many of the capitals are known for these social

13:04 places cafes pubs etc. etc. so I think most unfortunate this decision of takeover. >> Thank you. In fact quick this thing is in fact there is some YouTube video doing the rounds where someone is saying Jim Connor club was where a CIA people used to meet and hatch plots against because foreign diplomats are seen at the club I mean if they want to look at the stories that are really being spun now. I also we also joined by Abhijit Iyer Mitra. He is commentator, political and social commentator. In fact, I've been hearing his argument. He's been arguing apart from many things also he talks about the lease saying that it's a perpetual lease and then at any point of the day and the government has a right to revoke. I think you took the property argument but I'll let you explain it to us. First

13:49 Sandeep, Sandeep this is not just the Gymkhana. Tomorrow they'll come for Tolly. What will you do? >> So Priya, I don't think you bargained for having me on the program. I proudly call myself >> I invited you. I told you I bargained for you. >> in terms of what my I proudly call myself with this is an admission of club TV. My friends you know joke that every time Sandeep loses a job he goes and becomes a club member member of a new club. And so I don't want to give you a count of those but I have written articles on clubs which has been quoted clubs of India which has been quoted in foreign people called me to check. So I have I consider myself to a bit of be a bit of an authority on clubs if I may quote unquote and say that with

14:36 some degree of pride. Now these arguments are very complex Priya because you know this whole thing has taken the shape of an elite versus non-elite. But within elites there are different circles and if you compare with clubs I'll start with this example which I don't know many of your viewers may not know in Calcutta the most elite in that sense of the exclusive club used to be not Tolly. Used to be a club called the Calcutta Swimming Club which never used to accept any Indians as members until the first United Front Government came in 1967 and there was a minister called Ram Chatterjee. He took a truckload of

15:23 Santals and attacked the club and the Santals kind of jumped into the pool and Ramchandra and his friends raided the bar. And you know and after that Calcutta Swimming Club was forced to open its doors and it started taking Indian members. It's another matter from then to now there has been a 180° shift in not only the means actual demographics but the social demography of the club. So it's the extent that many other club members do not want to become members there and that's a club which is the most expensive entry fee. They would have you to pay a crore of rupees to get into that club. So you know it's changed. So club definitions also keep

16:09 changing. [clears throat] In Bombay you'll find people defending Bombay Gymkhana just the way you're defending this Bombay Gymkhana Willingdon Gymkhana but Bombay citizens go and criticize all there are whole lot of Gymkhanas along Marine Drive. Which have also got concessional land and their main source of revenue is letting it out for shadis. And that is the clubs don't have you'll find Bombay Gymkhana members and other people say that those clubs need to be taken in the government land should be taken back but leave Bombay Gymkhana >> [clears throat] >> that as it is. So there are these whole set of thing. Now club clubs so you cannot judge everything you know with one yardstick.

16:56 So here the moot question which you said Abhijit has raised I don't know we are all assuming certain things about the complex [clears throat] whether the reason is real or not but this kind of social pushback or political pushback I think is very natural. It happens across the world. I have we have Pawan on the show on the the show. Pawan would agree there's a Bankipur Club in Patna which once upon a time used to say Indians and dogs not allowed. But I have written an article it's reverse. Today only dogs are allowed kind of a thing you know it's become such a it's gone so much down the line you know you wouldn't like to go to Bankipur Club from

17:41 >> Okay. So you're talking about the mindset really of the that Sorry. >> So things change. So it is not a question of today's elite may not be tomorrow's elite that same people you may not say that I can gym may not shut down because the membership will go down. So those things keep changing everywhere clubs also. Do so you have to see it in the context. >> Okay. >> So the point is whether you're trying to destroy an institution or if you are as you're saying you are trying to take over a real estate. These are the different. Again in Delhi Delhi Golf Club >> Yeah. >> we faced similar threats earlier. And there was Mr. Dharamvira who was earlier governor of West Bengal and then I think

18:27 he was in Delhi LG or whatever. He he he was an avid golfer he went and saved Delhi Golf Club and not today and that was not a BJP days those were the earlier days. So there is I saw you know people Bangalore uh you know >> Yeah so I'll just yeah I got your examples. So see I'll just >> Even in Delhi Gymkhana when I used to be a corporate member it was the bar was shut for several months because one excise member didn't get elected CBDT the member. So CBSE member he went and conducted a raid and found for 12 years they'd never taken a bar license. So there is this whole privilege and various things we have to see each one in that context. Last point is

19:13 >> Okay. I'll Yeah. >> I Yeah. Yesh would having the correct thing. There is exactly the talk in the like a prince office has been created near Seva Tirth or whatever, which is supposed to be a high security thing. We don't know whether they're trying to create another high security complex for other people because security contact context is 2017 and today. >> Okay. Uh Tasneem quickly, you know, what Sandeep said, are they dismantling an institution or are they targeting a mindset? Is that's the real question really here? >> Thank you Priya for having me on such an eminent panel with the most non-elite person Abhijit Iyer Mitra, the most non-elite person in the country by far. >> By the way, Tasneem, when I told Yasho

20:00 that Tasneem Poonawalla is coming, he said either wala ya udhar wala. >> [laughter] [laughter] >> I've spoken with you many times. >> Please tell us which side are you on? >> Side I want the side of India and the side of the Delhi Gymkhana Club. Look. Look, honestly, let's just come to the thing. You can make any argument. It's elite, non-elite, etc. That's not the official reason that the government's put on paper. What the government has put as its defense. So, what you say on YouTube or television or Twitter doesn't matter. What matters is the process of law. Now, the process of law is that this is

20:46 a lease, a perpetual lease. You cannot just take it one fine day by saying that there is some sort of a defense mechanism. None of us, Yeshji, Pawanji, or any of us want to know what the defense issue is, but the honorable Prime Minister stayed there for number of years. Number of Prime Ministers have stayed there. This is not a China you can just come and take a land. You have to explain why. If you were to do this with a club, just imagine tomorrow Google is investing in India or or or Elon Musk is investing with a perpetual lease, can you just come and take over the land this way? As long as the objectives of the clubs are being fulfilled, you cannot do it. Number two. Now you come to what is the other thing that's being spoken on social media? That the mismanagement. That's not the reason the government has spoken. But for the mismanagement, government itself went to NCLT and NCLAT. They got an order in their favor. They should have

21:32 done the necessary changes. However, I saw the budget of the sorry, the balance sheet of the last year of the club. It's now in a profit of 9 crore something lakh. So it's actually come in a profit. And further reforms are required, you can do it. You don't have to take away a club. Now this club has a legacy. If you still want to take away my land, you have all the right you you won't take away. At least talk to me. At least have a conversation with me. At least restore my legacy by telling me we'll move you here, you can have your process there. You can't just arbitrarily like not go to your China come and say suddenly there's a security threat, we won't tell you what it is, and you have to leave and you we will not bother because you're too elite. That doesn't work. It won't even uphold in court and therefore the government committed in court there will be no action taken because the government would have got a would have got a tight slap on its face. The fact is that you will have to talk to the members, you will have to rehabilitate them. There

22:17 are people who are working. This idea of elite non-elite, let me just go. Why are then all these MPs staying in these big bungalows? I don't even want to go to other offices. Where where the the bureaucrats here too serving ex-bureaucrats here. Why do they get all the facilities? Why do So I mean, are we a country that does not that that that that wants to take away from the haves? Why don't you give haves to more people? I think that's a silly argument. And the last thing that that has been finally been spoken about is that there are there's some illegal activity. Now please understand these are all vague terms that we don't know what it is. If you don't define it, you can't. For example, in Sector 16 Noida, you have a film city which is given for the purpose of media. XYZ media house is running a media channel. They'll also have a cafeteria, they'll also have maybe a

23:03 bookshelf or whatever, a library there, a bookstore there, whatever. A gym there. As long as the main objective of that film city is being met, you can't arbitrarily come and say I'll take this away and I'll break down your media house. And where does this end? Where does this end? Does this end only at at the Delhi Gymkhana? Does this end at Film City, Noida? Abhijit will tell you and he's an expert on defense. Today you can target sitting in China. I mean, when we targeted when we targeted Rawalpindi, Nur Khan didn't even cross the LOC. Targeting can happen over distance. So you have to be prepared for it. And you must have a conversation and restore the legacy. That's all I'm saying. If you do this, it'll be a very bad precedent if the government bulldozes and takes land away. It can't work like that in a democracy and I don't think the laws will allow it. >> See, this is the point, Abhijit. You know, I heard you talking in another

23:49 debate, I think maybe with Barkha Dutt, about the perpetual lease. And you said, you know, it is a lease and there is a clause where the government can take away for various reasons in terms of security. But, you know, when the club was bought, there was no sale deed, but it was a perpetual lease deed. There are so many properties that are leasehold. Half of Noida is leasehold. Then tomorrow they'll come and take away our houses. I mean, what is the government trying to establish with this precedent? >> Uh first, let me segue into what uh Tehseen said. Uh I think it was his beloved party leaders, uh Shri Jawaharlal Nehru Ji and Miss Indira Gandhi Ji, who brought in the first amendment which completely took away our property rights. So none of us actually have the right to property in this country at all. Uh uh and according to him, they were both highly democratic leaders, number one.

24:34 And the clauses being used right now are those very same clauses. Uh it's not the land ceiling act, but it's uh they were also enacted by uh Shri Nehru Ji and uh uh Indira Gandhi. Number one. Number two. We need to understand a lot of what is being said applies to private property as opposed to lease. Even private property in this country is not sacrosanct. In this case, it is a lease. Now, when you invoke security, it is government invoking eminent domain where it can take back any land, private or public land, for whatever reason. In case of Gymkhana, it is a perpetual lease where the Supreme Court has mentioned certain categories. Now, under

25:20 those and there are four categories, only two are relevant to this. Uh the first is there should be no breakage of the lease terms. And the second one is that the tenant has upheld all the required rules and things like that. Rules, sure enough, the government took over. There are now two management committees. There is the official management committee and there is the non-official management committee which people seem to think is the actual committee kind of thing. The second issue is in terms of breakage of the terms of the lease. Now, uh yesterday Major uh >> Atul Dev. >> Atul Dev, he showed me a very interesting document. It is not only the main building which is classified as heritage, it is the main building and the campus which

26:05 is classified as heritage. >> Yes. >> Which means every single cottage that has come up, every single building that has come up, every single tennis court that has come up since after 1918 is a violation of the original terms of the lease. The government has totally listed a total of 53 >> But it was leased as a club, no? It was not leased as a in terms of a lease. >> matter. It doesn't matter. You If the campus is listed as heritage, that is 53 times that the heritage clause has been violated. See, if a lawn is declared heritage, you can't just dig up the lawn, right? Now, the thing is the government has cited none of this. Their order is very clear. It is security. Right? Security means there is no appeal to it. Even in the Supreme Court, what

26:51 will the Supreme Court say? They'll say what they said for the Rafael, give us the security rational in a sealed envelope. And once you once national security is invoked out here, there is no uh this thing to it. Now, lastly, before I finish, if you'll permit me to say this, uh Taseen is right. I'm not an elitist at all. I am a Marxist of the Groucho Marx variety. >> Yes. >> And to quote the golden words of Groucho Marx, I don't want to be the member of any club that will have me as its member. >> Okay. Just That's a nice one. I'm going to quickly go go in for a break and come back and get your rebuttals, but after a very quick break. >> [music] >> Hello and welcome back to the NewsX Sunday Guardian Roundtable. We are

27:37 taking a look at the case of Gymkhana Club, but also if we can go a bit beyond it, you know, we've articulated the pros and cons and what the government's case is versus the members' case. But Pawan, this whole concept is are they after a mindset? Because, you know, if you just see the places that are being targeted, whether the names being changed, there is an attempt to do away with not just the physical space, but the mental space also. >> See, [clears throat] the government being, as I said, the supreme landlord in all cases where there is a perpetual lease, the government's right to terminate it is not being questioned. I believe that right is inherent in the agreement. Mhm. The question is about its desirability. We are talking of that. And if that

28:22 attempt to implement what is inherently within its powers has [clears throat] been motivated for other reasons than what has been ostensibly stated, then those who are being affected by the decision, and I don't believe it's only the membership of the Gymkhana Club. >> Right. >> I believe it is a city. I believe there is a concept. I believe there is a certain form of ideology and practice involved here. Then they have a right to raise questions and seek greater transparency. That's [clears throat] That's the nub of the matter to for me. And let me say to you that I have no doubt whatsoever. I have a book called Becoming Indian, The Unfinished Revolution of Culture and

29:08 Identity, where I articulate how the the the the the leading members of those associated with the previous colonial regime were the chief inheritors of power. And they did become the first chosen lot for these clubs. But they Any can assess whether clubs have changed over a period of time. For instance, talking of Kolkata, the Bengal Club, which was earlier Macaulay's residence, had till the late 1950s, if I'm not wrong, actually a board which said, "Dogs and Indians not allowed." Now, it's unacceptable in a free country that the none of the members thought that they should remove it. In Gymkhana Club, yeah, I'm just quickly

29:54 mentioning one or two examples. In the early '90s, I went to the club in the evening wearing a silk kurta, pajama, and closed Peshawari sandals. And I was told by the guard who knew me well at the entrance that "You will need a Jawahar jacket." So, I asked my wife to bring it there. But then I saw saw people in jeans, t-shirts, and gola shoes being allowed to go in, whereas I thought I am formally dressed as per Indian culture and tradition. >> Correct. >> And I did a dharna right there on the spot at the entrance. The secretary of the club met me the next day. I think it was Admiral Tehliamani, who was the president of the club. He wrote to me saying, "You have a valid point. Please

30:40 join the dress committee to see how we can democratize the rules. And the club rules have been changed. I went to Chidambaram wearing a veshti with a gold border and a shirt and perfectly in my view it's normal dress. People from the northeast, India is a country of sartorial diversity. So it should not be insular. It should learn to live in a democratic and far more culturally uh egalitarian India. Both not only Jimkhana has changed. If you go to Tolly today, you still can't go in a pajama kurta which may be formal. >> Mhm. No. >> Uh >> So these things >> Actually it's not uh >> These things need to >> Mr. Varma, that's not correct. They >> But I was told

31:25 >> Uh >> I was >> no, no. Yeah. What they specify is >> 8 or 9 and I was not wearing a night suit. >> No, no. >> It was a formal dress for the evening. >> So they they promised national dress. Yeah. Uh national dress is defined. So our you know, our general pajama is not allowed and chappals are not allowed. >> I was not wearing a chappal. I was wearing a gold >> No, you were not. But I think all these clubs specify this now very clearly. >> Yes, it's much better. >> Mhm. >> Sandeep, it's much better in a country like India that you prescribe an absolute list of don'ts. No bedroom slippers, no half half shorts, no whatever, no night dress suit. >> Mhm. >> You have to allow for the fact that

32:12 India is not merely the remnants of a certain brown sahib culture. Now if the clubs are making the change, that's good. If they are the pace of change is slow, please expedite it. As uh uh Tasneem said I think and rightly have a conversation. You are running the club now through your own committee. Make those changes. If you were only watching Shakespeare, watch Kalidas. Don't foist it on it, but let there be a conversation. >> But all that has happened, you know, a lot of the changes that you've mentioned already happened. Only now the Nehru jacket is probably being called a Modi jacket, but everything [laughter] else is very much >> That kind of thing. So, I would suggest that it's not that the government doesn't have the right.

32:57 I'm making an appeal for the government to exercise it judiciously, keeping in mind the entire gamut of issues involved and the consequences that could be inferred therefrom. >> Okay. And this question of elite, you know, all this targeting of Jimkhana Club members as the privileged and the elite. Aren't the elite who are the ones who are living around the club? What about those elite with who travel in a cavalcade of cars while all of us are standing in lines, you know, waiting you know, whether it's the petrol pump queues or whatever. I mean, we don't see the cavalcades of the ministers and the reducing. We don't see the various elite practices being practiced by them. And last 10 years, these are the elite. They are the governing class. >> You know, the concept of elite arose in

33:44 France, right? And who was an elite? Elite was a guy who could pedal influence, who was wealthy, you know, who had the power, educated and things like that. So, I would say today Ram Rahim is a great elite. He has 40 >> That's at any time. >> crore and he, you know, despite being convicted, he's having a good time. So, in when you talk about the power of the government, of course government has the power. Government has the power to release anybody. Remissions you have people garlanding convicts and all that in Gujarat. You saw that. That is not the issue. You know, elite, my brother is a four-time MP, MLA. He's staying in a huge bungalow. So, he's not an elite because he's a representative. And I survive on my pension. And just because

34:30 I speak English, so I become an elite. I mean I I don't understand this kind of, you know, branding. >> You talked about the mindset. I'll give you the real reason very very clearly and Tahseen will appreciate. The question is Gymkhana is not a voting block. Number one. >> Yes. >> Gymkhana doesn't donate to party coffers. Gymkhana is not influenced by the propaganda and slogans of any political party. So, Gymkhana does not partake of any subsidies. I mean, it doesn't belong to that 80 crore. So, your existence is you know, despite the government. So, you you know, they don't need you for anything. Because you're of no use to them. And that's a very practical thing I would

35:15 say for for a for a politics political group. You know, Surjit Bhalla said a very nice thing the other day. And he was very close to this government. He said, you know, you can of course winning elections is is fine, but you can't win the economy without doing something concrete. So, these kind of things are fine. Absolutely, government has the power, it can do anything. I even know that it's going down. But in terms of fairness in a in in in a democracy, people have a question to ask. When you're acquiring something, what are you acquiring it for? And I've given you know, being a few years in in service and dealing with VIP security, I know a little bit what is the requirement for security and defense establishment and all that. So,

36:03 if you are clear about it and you explain to the people, people will be with you. But if you really want to take it over, yes, I suppose no one can do it. And at least Gymkhana cannot do roadblocks and things like that. So, it's absolutely fine. I mean, if you take it away. >> Which is unfortunately, you know, that that is the case. A lot of you know, members of the club are also going by gentleman rules. You know, we are not really coming out and protesting and all. It's only when we saw all what is happening on social media and on television channels by you know, people who are not members of the club the way the members of the club are being painted. I think that is when people have come and started speaking out. But Sandeep, is this then a political move? Forget security and all that. You know, those are all, you know, may or may not be the case. Let's not argue

36:48 that. Is this a political move? Will the government gain it? Let's look at what's happening on social media. >> Good part of political move. When you see because of social media your cockroach party is out of the news. Delhi people are much more involved with Delhi Gymkhana. I don't see cockroach answers anywhere also they may be both. >> On the TV debates. >> over there. But these are all you know, as I told you there are various shades of gray. In this particular case there could well be a political angle. You know, I you cannot rule out. I gave you the whole example of that Calcutta Swimming Club where people jumped in because there was a political angle. When the Left Front government came they wanted to show that you know, this institution would be

37:34 >> is open to all. >> No, the bourgeois institutions are being destroyed so exclusively. So they tried to do. But even now for example Priya without taking names of the place. I know of a club where BJP somebody affiliated to BJP who was a past governor of two states he was defeated in the elections and his this thing because they said because he had a right-wing affiliation. You know, the the club members. So these various kind of appetite goes in and it's a clubs but I don't see that at one level there's nothing wrong about it. You know, because clubs are meant to be places like of PLUs, people like us and

38:22 >> Yeah. >> uh who are of a certain mindset. The mindset can change, the culture can change. Again, I give you the example of couple of clubs of the same club which Pawan was mentioning Bakipur Club. From there to I was mentioned now today the club the set has changed, mindset has changed. So, who are we to say? We may not go for membership there anymore. Uh it's that. So, these are complex >> So, then what do we do there? See, no clubs because every club will have a certain criteria because it is a place for PLU, you know. You find you want to be with people you can actually sit down and have a drink with subsidized or not, but you know, hang out with the people you can have a conversation with. It's extension of your home at the end of the day.

39:08 So, there's no clubs for this government. >> No, no, we can do one nation one club. >> One nation one Keshav [laughter] Kunj, the club at Keshav Kunj. >> That is a good one. >> That is a very good one. Reality but what things have changed as you said once when I started becoming members of club somebody where a club I had become a member, he said you can I I take members if I think I can take you home for dinner. If you're good enough for that, then you're a member. >> Yeah, it's Yeah, except Abhijit won't go for dinner with himself. >> One second, I have to do this cheeky one Sandeep. I hope the guy who told you was only taking his male friends home for dinner and no other friends home for dinner. I hope I can take you home for dinner. I hope you are not telling his female friends that. >> [laughter] >> That may get you into a lot of trouble, Sandeep. >> Yeah, a lot of clubs were not allowing

39:54 including in your city, Bombay Gymkhana and everywhere women members were not allowed till Nani Palkhivala made a case. >> But let me just add one line. This one line is for Abhijit, yeah. Look, Abhijit made a point about this heritage land, etc. Again, the rules of this are very defined. Heritage land again does not mean the purpose and the objectives of the club which is sports or promotion of culture cannot be done. What it means is the existing structures cannot be destroyed. For For long story short, Shah Rukh Khan's bungalow is an is a heritage bungalow. It can be renovated. You can have a building beyond it. You can't destroy it. Many cantonment properties are also heritage properties. So, you have a swimming pool there. You have all of these facilities there, gardens. So, I think we get because these permissions are given by the government itself, the local

40:40 authorities. So, it it is a great domain. I get Abhijit, it's a decent argument to make. But, again >> I'm just putting the larger argument. If perpetual lease can be bulldozed this way, believe you me, investments will dry up in India. Nobody will will trust the government to do the investment. And it's very scary to do it. And you are not a socialist. You don't believe in Lal Salaam. You believe in Lal Salaam. >> I >> Abhijit [laughter] >> I'm a capitalist which >> He's really a great sender. >> Yeah, that's true. >> Yes. >> I'm a capitalist which is why I believe that the property owner should have the right to take back their property in accordance with the law anytime they see fit. That said, can I just say I think we're reading too much into You know, the membership at Gymkhana is

41:25 very eclectic. It is not just elites. You will see Suzuki Espressos which cost 6 lakhs, you know, Desires which cost 10 12 lakhs along with Mercedes and Maybachs which cost upwards of, you know, crores of rupees. >> But, as in any parking lot, the ratio of those to the others. That's what you have to say, no? There will always be a couple >> No, actually not. The ratio is actually much higher in Delhi Golf Club >> Okay. >> than it is in uh than it is in Gymkhana. >> Gymkhana. >> The highest ratio would be a place called Chambers which is a Taj Mansingh which is where all the legal wheeler dealers meet and nobody you can't get in there unless you have a Rolls-Royce or Maybach. Mercedes doesn't qualify you for membership out there, right? That

42:11 said the one that is really elite, which is being evicted, is the race course uh the race club. Where if you go there, you are free for polo matches, wine red wine white wine and sparkling wine are served free. I don't know if people know this. I I don't I don't think I should have said this on the program because the next time there's a uh match [laughter] there, uh uh >> You know who's going. >> Uh just to get that free wine, but you have to be in a suit. Uh no Indian clothes allowed. You have to be in a suit in a jacket, not a suit, in a jacket. And uh there is a very strict dress code out there. Nobody is talking about that club. Imagine you have to have a lot more money than for a Rolls-Royce to own a horse in this country, realistically

42:56 speaking, right? I think it is uh we're reading too much into the government's intentions. I think if the government really wanted to take down a club, it would have been the India International Centre where Romila Thapar and co. are members. And poor Gymkhana where, you know, uh uh uh uh Romila is not a member. Uh so, I don't think that is the real reason. I think the real reason will come out uh later, but just to put out a conspiracy theory out there. Uh and I >> Not you too. Huh? Kitni conspiracy theories are there? >> your conspiracy theory Uh >> [snorts] >> this has been done. The aim isn't the Gymkhana Club. The aim is the uh cockroach Janata Party because the moment we started talking about Gymkhana >> That's what I said. >> everybody started Yeah.

43:41 >> So, it was a hit job. It was a hit job. It was a hit job. It was a hit job. It was a hit job. It was a hit job. It was a hit job. It was a hit job. >> It's a hit job. It's a hit job. It's a hit job. It's a hit job. It's a hit job. It's a hit job. It's a hit >> hit We got the joke just as it is. So, Gymkhana is just a casualty of this narrative-changing attempt by the government. But, just before we quickly end the Abhijit, one quick word. You know, this whole thing of elites being We're not Elites are not, you know, people who are Are the elites people who are wearing you know, designer clothes, driving fancy cars? Or is the new elite how today's elite in the last 10 years of the Modi government is a very different elite. They're the ones who drive with all the Gujju number plates. >> True, and they would not be caught dead driving a foreign car at any rate, not in public at any rate. >> Correct. Well said. >> One last point is elites and how they change across times,

44:28 across decades, and across societies. I would say in fact the very fact that the Gymkhana is being served the notice would be the surest sign of its loss of relevance. It is the most counter elite argument you can make if you take Yasho sir's explanation because it means they clearly have no elitism left and no influence left on government which is why they did it. >> Well said. Pawan, last point. >> Last point if you will allow me. You see, what all said and done and all the arguments we've heard, it's a green oasis. It's a green oasis. >> Yes. >> Not like the Delhi Golf Club which also occupies very expensive land and too much of it because that's the nature of a golf club.

45:13 But it's an oasis. A green They're lungs of the city. And all of Lutyens' Delhi is compared to the rest of Delhi, but yes, it's part of that. And I know one of them happens to be your husband who drives, Priya, who drives all the way from Noida to be there at a certain time in the evening just to watch the startling circle the sky. Because that's the only space where they do it with such a phlegmatic I mean such a flamboyant uh >> I think I know who you're talking about. >> I do watch. So, uh I think we should spare the club and also spare things like Lodhi Garden which also take up too much space for too few people. >> I know, will Lodhi Garden be next? We

46:00 don't know what will be next if this uh you know, if this is the argument too much space for too few people. That's really the mindset and just to end you know I was just having this conversation on mindset where I'm going to call you back again. Look at what they've done to the party offices. You know it shows a mindset early on the party offices when Akbar Road or Ashoka Road where there was a sprawling one floor. You could walk in to meet whoever if you couldn't you could wait outside now the BJP office is one tall building. You cannot get access to certain floors. You cannot meet the top leaders if you don't have the lift card. So the access is totally restricted. This is the you know it shows the closed mindset versus open mindsets. That's the other argument not really maybe for the club but the kind of spaces that this government is attacking. But thank you all for this wonderful conversation. Thank you. >> Thank you.

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