What’s Hot in Solar Equipment & Materials: Panel Discussion

0:01 [Music] you know let's reflect on what we learned uh today with uh three of our pres presenters so one is uh Baochan representing the equipment wing then we have fans from silver side covering the key cell materials and Sukumar oh I thought you you'll be there >> yeah okay and Sukumar we We'll continue with Sukumar with the fab design and uh engineering knowhow. So okay we have Banan. Can you Jerry can you switch on your camera? Oh yeah. Okay.

0:47 >> Yeah >> you both are on mute. Okay. Hey welcome back. >> Thanks. >> Great. So you know hey so yeah so let's start our panel discussion and the title of our panel is really what's hot in equipment and materials key trends in PV cell and module manufacturing. So you know when you look at the trends uh in the keynote presented by Marcos Fischer showed in his ITRPV what when you're looking at that what really is surprising to you or is everything according to your expectation you know I

1:32 think this is the open question to all >> is take or or should I answer >> yeah You can start uh sigma I think that's nice. >> I mean I mean it's a very um um industry standard ITF PB we use as a road map. I mean it's also clearly you can see all the expectations were changed from last year 2033 to 24 even the predictions even by the big big four firms were changing while on the ground situation was different even what was presenting I mean I would I would definitely say the Indian perspective especially outside China even the including scenarios will be totally different I mean the the the technical curves are correct compared to

2:18 the technology with the top corn being the base because more proven technology but also has its own issues in um uh into putting into ground like I explained today it's not only the technical technology but also the capabilities and the people having in India you know not many not not many resources are available to put it on time and put it to the highest efficiency which our colleagues showed today 25.5 I we don't see such a stable line still in India in a giga scale yet so this will come next year's Mhm. >> Jerry. >> Hey. Hi Jo. Yeah. To me I feel like as show by the IRP the technology really is moving too fast. As you can see from the learning rate for the recent years you

3:05 can see a very steep learning rate. This is I think probably is the contribution from the whole PV communities. Yeah. But definitely this also show a very bright future like this year probably we can expect uh 5,000 to six 500 to 650 gawatt global installation. This also give us a yeah a lot future expectation for this PV industry. Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. And I think Marcus also uh uh you know has had a special slide uh for your expertise which is silver. So what what what is your idea like um you know where

3:51 the how the silver how you know close to what your estimations are from ITV? >> Yeah. Yeah. Actually I think it RPV has made a very accurate prediction. uh you know it's very difficult to predict what will happen next year especially about the lay down about the cost because our customer they always working more aggressively than we can predict and before maybe uh the same day last year I could not imagine that the screen opening actually is reduced to below seven microns it's very difficult to predict that but I think that's what we have to do we have to prepare more and we have to prepare uh more aggressively than our customer

4:36 then we can meet their requirements. Yeah. >> Okay. So you know today's event is really about cell and module production equipment material. So let's start with the cell technology and of course topcon earns the first mention. So starting with you Jerry. So you mentioned during our prep call that you know topcon is kind of past tense. Uh it is really so is it really the case? Uh from the technology wise you can see yeah the top count is quite mature especially you see already more than 800 gawatt already deployed in China market >> and this is all already over capacit

5:23 over uh capacity so from the technology wise I think it's very mature so that's the reason I I see in that way and just now in the IPv report also mentioned that the whole demand is only around 500 to 600 gawatt. Definitely is over capacity right now. So that's the reason I explain the new expansion for token is expect to be minimal but definitely outside ch China may be different because it's still as I also say is probably will be the mainstream for the next 10 years. So outside of China probably 10 year is sufficient probably the equipment lifetime is less than 10 years. So that doesn't matter. Yeah, but from the technology point of view, I think the

6:09 top count is mature. So that's also is good that for outside of China, they can start to deploy it. So it's quite mature. But however, there are also still room for improvement as um as just now everyone mentioned that probably like the very hot area which is currently under investigation probably is the real side polyer and the the east a passion. Actually the ace passionation only launched this year as well. Yeah. from the pipeline mass production just within one year basically within half a year. So the pace in China is very very fast and probably like the zero bus technology as just now uh our friend also mentioned the new pace whether we are moving to copper all these things probably still room for improvement and the cost reduction for Tom. Yeah. So

6:58 however however all these thing adding also make the tok process very complex. For example, polyfinger you need to adding process. H passivation you also adding process. So eventually the top count process they they eventually will make it more and more complex. Probably in future probably will be comparable to TBC already. Yeah. Is adding all >> new technologies. Yeah. Correct. So, so you know how is the industry adoption uh for the poly fingers and uh and uh you know I think we we conveniently forget one more topic which was also bfacial poly even you yourself uh you know uh recommended or discussed mentioned in know in in one of our previous conferences but now I don't see anyone

7:46 mentioning so are we bypassing the bacial poly and directly going to the BC and again coming back to the first question. So how is the adaption for the polyfingers? >> To be honest is polyfinger you can see. So stuff on last year we already talk about the poly fingers and the H passivation but definitely the movement for the H passivation is much faster than polyinger because H passivation already start match production. Actually the mass production for H passivation data already come out from June July of this year. also just a few year a few months back but uh polyfinger to be honest is still under small scale production evaluation. Yeah. Okay.

8:32 Although everyone knows this direction from the cell structure point of view they have to make the real side poly to be removed but however due to some technical issues in mass production especially for the yield issues. So is still relatively a little bit slow and also is the laser laser source stability. Uh all this challenge you need high power laser source. Yeah. >> So low. Yeah. But but you know anyway we cannot compare the edge passivation with rare polyfingers because you yourself showed 40,000 wafers per hour throughput and it's a just simple >> equipment that you you can place it at a corner and then but poly finger is is really a technological next generation

9:20 technology within the top gun right? Uh yes definitely it's definitely will be deployed soon or later uh because we are spend a lot of resource on working on it and try to resolve all the issues because the mass production is different from the pilot line. Pilot line everyone where we talk a lot is because pilot line you just have to prove the efficiency gain >> but the mass production we have to prove the stab the stability >> so your issues yeah it's a different story. But I believe yeah very soon yeah it can be deployed. Yeah. >> Okay. Then um you know in in in one sentence how about the bfacial poly you know poly fingers also on the on the front. So you know there are different

10:05 arguments. Some people say because of the leo it's kind of you know there is no big signing benefit for making poly also on the front. But you know I think that still some places it is still part of the road map. So what's your take on on bfacial poly? >> Yeah, basically we are working on all kind of directions currently. So basically I I believe in the previous presentation I think one one presenter also shows a slice comparation between the bfacial body and the BC and because the bfacial body if you want to do it actually the process complexity is similar to BC already. So actually the only difference is the the gain you from the cell structure. So for the BC you

10:50 gain from the extremely high front front side efficiency but he lose on the bicial landity but for the bipol probably you gain from the bicial landity but you lose a little bit of front side efficiency. It depends I think both structure has their pro and cons. Yes. >> Ah okay. So now coming to Sukumar you know though your presentation was on the module part and you have also been dealing with cell lines quite a bit. uh in fact uh that's what uh you know super hot in India today. So what is your overall impression about the status of cell technology in manufacturing in different markets you are active in you know you are active from uh from India to US. So what's your technology

11:38 um you know idea for for deployment right now readiness I would say. Yeah, I mean uh uh like Boschin said, I mean it's more topcon study beginning has you know started in India also from last year a lot of gigas you know announced and a lot of gigas also in construction phase as we speak today and as also we are quitly involved in lot of big engineering projects and establishing the site readiness to to bring those gigawatts into the ground but there is quite a challenge I mean currently India I mean at least we'll add 15 to 20 gawatt of cell lines at least in next one year as we speak today the realistic 20 gawatt and and even it will cross around like 30 35 gawatt cell lines

12:26 until end of next year and our market is looking the TCR market also looking in the range of 30 to 40 gawatt so we are already reaching that over capacity say I would say 2028 29 you know already we are crossing >> very soon >> but on the other side of technology we have also one player in India you know for the HJD part which will also maybe stand apart from these players but also consolidate because at the end cost per what is key which every like I said the graph I mean whoever is below that price even the the the price level will go down irrespective of technology uh topcon being the more capex friendly today uh thanks to a lot of vendors and also execution in the ground is also getting cheaper >> moving to Europe and and US unfortunately due to the current

13:12 political scenario and market scenario I don't see much growth but in module still we see a lot of growth in topcon factories and module in Europe which we are seeing a case and also sell slowly building up with the partnerships between Asians and Europeans but on the other side in US there's a lot of uncertaintity because of the policy and also the current situation which we will closely observe for the next say one two quarters but definitely in whole world after you know Asia the US market is the biggest market for everyone I'm pretty sure the sell plans will start to raise in in the new year over next year on especially from the perk side until this topcon patent issues will resolve in a in a a white

13:58 and black manner or they go into the PC concepts with some consortia and with the Chinese American partnerships I think this is also happening in co-investing I would see a lot cell cell line activities planned maybe mid of next year after the Indian curve is stabilizing. So this is I see from country to country differences. >> Okay. I think you already also as part of your answer you answered my next question. So then I will uh ask Ban you know um you were uh not just a Chinese uh equipment supplier you have a global footprint. So in your impression you know uh you know how is the topcon cell manufacturing development outside China

14:46 you know how does the line equipment processing quality and all these matters which are more or less uh uh you know often tagged with the equipment uh are are happening outside China. How do you see outside China market? M yeah from outside China market as you see definitely has the local uh regulations or listing environment all these thing but for the light design for the light design first thing I think we already has a very very competent suppliers like the RCT solutions team they already has experience to deploy 20 lines over the world so I think this not a big challenge but for the equipment wise I think also with over just now

15:32 with over 800 gigawatt top deployment in China. Basically the choice for equipment also very simple. You already has a very big pool of examples you can choose with. So I don't think that is also a challenge. I only feel like the challenge probably will be uh related to the processing or quality because these are linked to the skill workers and as well as the supply chains which need more times to be localized. Yeah. This could be the challenge. >> Yeah. >> Nice. Nice. Yeah. Okay. So, function you know how does the pace supplier look at the different generations of topcon you know such a rare poly and bacial poly and you know and these uh uh the

16:17 potential of these technologies. Uh yeah actually for topcom uh we believe that there will be a lot of room to for the increase its efficiency no matter by uh poly finger or double side poly actually uh bipoly just like Jerry said maybe the complexity is similar to BC but it has to solve the issue of the absorption of the front side and uh from the pace vendor actually we have cooperated with our summer in maybe last year about the bipol metal on front sides when it's when the when with the textured structure uh you

17:04 know with the planner surface is it's easy to control the genome metal but maybe we have to solve the issue of the contact but on a frron side with the texture surface uh the gen gome is very difficult to control because the usually the paste will start etching the pacivation layer at the pace of the at the pyramid. So no matter how you tune the paste recipe the the etching of the tips of the pyramids is very uh heavily. So it's very difficult to to reduce the genome metal. So compared to BC I think the BC level of the bipol is difficult to uh compete with BC. Uh but the content might be better. uh but actually

17:50 the contact BC is quite good now the the resistivity of the py can reach to below two ohm uh 2 ohm and actually that's very uh low compared to the top front side but for if you we looking at the genome the BC the genome is quite is much lower than bipol for bipol fully uh uh maybe it has still has some efficiency benefit benefit versus the standard topcom but it's difficult to compete with BC and for polyfinger I think uh we can see that our some of our customer actually they are running mass production but the

18:36 efficiency uh benefit actually is not so good because uh maybe uh less than one z.1 efficiency gain uh But compared to the uh equipment investment uh maybe the efficiency benefit is not so attractive for some of our customers. So the actually the capacity is not uh so large now but still we can see some efficiency gain and maybe still some equipment some room to optimize the equipment and optimize the process also the paste to deliver more efficiency benefit. Yeah, but that's the definitely root for the top for the next generation top. >> Okay. And then are there any silver saving approaches for the topcon? So

19:24 right now let's stay a little bit at the top level. So how much do you see uh you know uh not how much in which direction is your progress is going? So is it to improve the efficiency or to improve the uh you know cost reduce the cost? Uh which is the direction you are going? >> Uh actually we are going both ways. Uh for the maybe for the front side paste our customer will more they will focus on the efficiency. We have to improve the efficiency from the uh the front side paste. Uh but for the rear side our customer will pay more attention to reduce the cost. Uh actually to uh reduce the cost we have several different ways to go uh step by step. uh

20:11 the first step maybe narrow finger line openings and that's a very easy way to reduce the cost and uh also we are cooperating with our customers with some uh base metal work and the first step for the base metal we will introduce some some cheap metal like nickel to the paste uh but the percentage of the but the content of the nickel we cannot uh raise to a very high level because that will impact the efficiency greatly So uh maybe the nickel uh the the content of the nickel can limit it to below 20%. And also uh uh we can see some efficiency drop from that kind of uh that kind of nickel content. Uh to

20:58 further reduce the cost we have to go to like the uh silver coated copper paste. We call it high copper paste or pure copper paste. Actually the PE corporation might be a difficult right now because our customer have to introduce some new equipment and maybe the reliability they have to need a long time to evaluate. But for the silver coated copper paste actually uh right now we are cooperative with our customer in mass production. We have several lines running that kind of paste. uh uh the reliability and the efficiency uh we are sure that there's no quest no problem for that and uh we also see some very significant cost down

21:43 uh with the silver coated copper paste. So and our customer don't have to incorporate any brand new equipment. They can use their top lines and to add some printer add a maybe a curing machine and that that they can run this kind of paste. So I think that is a more mature process right now. >> Okay. So then uh let's uh move towards the BC which is uh really gaining uh more attention as we could see from ITRPV presentation and you know Jerry your presentation and of course uh uh if someone has visited any of the solar shows it was all flooded with BC module. So

22:28 your presentation was mostly on BC. So what is the benefit of moving to BC now? You know as the process is fast fast it's still complex critical expensive whereas we also have a lot of perk over capacity like what you just said. So what's the incentive to go to BC now? Uh yeah actually everyone knows BC is holding the world record cell efficiency for single junction crystalite silicon solar cells definitely is the direction for next generation high efficiency cell technology especially if you want to go to higher power modules definitely because this is the your customer buy is the final product they look at the

23:15 module is the output power so however you mentioned the BC process also complex so basically our target is sim Similar for the beginning when we do the top count our target now is to choose the technology improvement as you see for my presentation to reduce the barriers for BC productions as you see so that's the reason you see my presentation for our this year improvement efforts we can reduce the equipment investment cost dramatically by about 40%. That's really a lot. By reducing the investment cost, hopefully more and more investors especially new investor they will needing to uh take this challenge. Yeah. Step into the next generation of the solar cell technologies. Yeah, that's our

24:03 >> okay but but you know how robust is the equipment supplying to the BC on a scale of 1 to 10 and take top corn as 10 where where does it the BC equipment stand right now >> uh to be honest as you can see the BC equipment and token equipment they are almost the same it's just like the way of difference to do the process and the probably the quantity required for the BC the equipment number way is more. So that's the reason we are trying to push the boundary for all the equipment technologies and as you see from my presentation I feel like the BC now the mass production the technology role they are using actually is quite mature especially with the two-step LPCVD

24:49 method the two-step poly method the tra traditional onestep method probably have the interlock for the boron diffusion and p diffusion but if you separate this interlock I think for the technology wise it's quite mature already. Yeah, it's just like how to reduce the cost investment cost and how to improve the yield as you see every steps you adding they they reduce the you a little bit. >> So the task is how to improve because the top count started initially especially for the PC count technology role beginning the y also less than 30%. We spend half a year to improve from 30% to above 97. So it's always need someone to keep pushing the boundaries for the cell technology as well as the equipment technologies. Yeah.

25:36 >> Okay. Um now fine um you know uh how critical are the pace for BC you know how much uh you know do they differ from the top con? >> Yeah. Uh actually the pace for P is very important especially for people uh because take that for example our customer actually they doing paste experiment every day actually but they don't do a lot of other experiments like po like the pol deposition or the pation no they don't do that but they are they focus on the paste test because the especially for people there's still a lot of room to help to increase the efficiency Because uh the contest do have room to optimize and uh our

26:24 competitors actually they are they are improving their pace. We are improving our past. The com the competition is actually is very fierce and actually for the n poly paste is not so different with the top rear side paste. So for people poly it's quite different because uh it's contact the ply but it has no le so it's totally different system compared to the to front side actually because it's a brand new glass free system. So we believe that there's still a lot of uh uncovered knowledge that we didn't find. So there might be still some new system waiting for us to to help us custom to increase efficiency.

27:11 >> Okay. And uh you know can LEO which was a really game changer in in in Topcon also be employed here? If not why? uh actually uh the BC LEO some of our customer they have tried because you know for top it's quite different for the lean is quite different with the BC uh because for top the the the logic is that we remove the aluminum uh for the top front side paste then greatly reduce the genome metal but for BC we don't have that issue we don't put aluminum in the paste So the genome is quite low. So compared to the uh

27:57 topcon leo actually the genome is is also lower. So there's not so much room to improve the genome. Uh the only way that might work is to optimize the context. But now the content actually the content resistivity is very low. So uh for the BCD code there's no not so much room to increase this efficiency. So a lot of our customer they won't uh if they didn't see much efficacy increase they are not interested in that technology and also for BC you know the uh for top it's quite easy that's the uh structure is uh you know front side green line and rear side green line but for BC they in the same same side it's

28:43 very difficult for the equipment to to apply the voltage so for BC they call it's quite difficult. >> Okay. Okay. So then um you know uh uh let's talk briefly about the module manufacturing. Sukman you know when looking at all your projects around the world um what's the key to success when ordering module line today? I mean two ways like I said one on the success rate is very limited now with the selection of the equipment player but more on the readiness of the you know our own preparation in India or abroad even in the European side I will speak a little bit on Europe then the success factors uh cap capital closure

29:29 you know every every part has their own uh issues India has issues for the site closures and the market we fight success factors are there but in Europe the capital closure you know the the the competition of the market in Europe is very open there is no duties or tariffs so the capital closure itself is the biggest item if they proceed and succeed in that there will be a lot of success in module making in Europe using also the the the affordable sales happening in the world and in the US on the compliances you know that's the most difficult matter so the success key three if you put in three buckets. I would put first the capital uh for the non Asian side and site preparation and

30:14 the engineering behind it in the second part and third is the skill like Bin said today the skilled people to bring it quick and run it efficiently to the top quality why there are quality mattresses you know in between the own vendors which I've seen the slide from also ben so it's also key with the right people with the right skill set Okay. Okay. Then um so one final question you know really talking about the success uh um so please name the three main technical recommendations you would give to investors who would like to build a cell factory today outside China so they can compete against local

30:59 peers and the Chinese market leaders if they want to export their products to open markets. Maybe Sukar you can already start. >> I think again adding to the same to be successful to the investors always they see is the right capex and the cost per unit mechanisms you have to choose a right mix including the OPEX part not only the L1 goes into the most affordable way but also the L1 in the OPEX and the complete LCE. So I would rather recommend to see a mix of equipment, mix of um uh the scenarios in the say example from the Indian perspective on the local uh land conditions the building cost and if you go to non-China regions like in Europe

31:45 more about the scale you know you cannot do a giga scale in Europe for the market they have I mean they have a bigger market but the competitiveness to make I think we strongly believe in some parts of the world we really make cell lines like we did one in Turkey which also CC show as example. It is possible but the scale of integration is important like also Bon right rightly mentioned on the ecosystem of supply chain ecosystem of materials it is quite possible to be competitive in some locations in the world where the affordable electricity affordable ecosystem happens with support of government >> yeah I think shukar summarize very well

32:31 I already cover most as that. Yeah. So I would like to say of course also like just not mentioned outside of the China market. So definitely we have to look at we have to differentiate the difference between China market and outside you have to utilize the local resource which can be adding to be a competitive advantage from the overseas market. Yeah this is very very important like just now see we have to look at the investment return. So the most important also look at the cost and the return how to do it and besides that I will adding two thing also is the quality control because you can see now with the over capacity with the the price competitation actually to be honest I feel like the more mod quality I observe for the recent two

33:16 years actually drops significantly. Actually this property can really have to really bring into concern to everyone the quality because the product we are supplying supposed to last 25 to 30 years. Yeah I think the quality for top count compared to the product time has dropped dramatically. I think quality probably is one of the differentiate factors and the third thing is probably I I would like to say definitely you have to select a very competent team. Yeah. Because is a operation. Yeah. Manufacturing. So a competent team is very important for the long-lasting uh business. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's for myself. >> Okay. Fing uh can you bring uh the material supplier perspective into this

34:02 equation. >> Actually uh we have lots of customer they they are worldwide actually. uh I think for for the investment the the policy the the local policy and that's ma matters a lot and the supply chain actually is also very important uh because as a pace vendor we find that uh sometimes we when we trust our c when we want to serve our customer but if the local policy is not so friendly to to us so even though we want to sell the paste we want to provide a service but it's difficult to to do that. Uh so I think the uh the local policy especially uh to uh to make a very friendly supply chain

34:49 to the to the supply chain that's very important uh to utilize the resource from from the supplier that will help the uh help help the salemakers to uh make the successful. Yeah. >> Okay. So local sourcing is the key right. So thanks a lot. I think on this note uh I would like to thank uh everyone Sukkumar Bachan and Panging. Thanks a lot for your very uh insightful recommendations and uh uh and thoughts. With this I would like to close our today's uh conference. But before I do that uh I would like to quickly thank of our thank our uh sponsors uh Laplas who

35:37 is our gold sponsor. Then we have Cybrid as silver sponsor and uh CC DKM lead micro and uh SNU energy as our bronze sponsors. And uh you know before closing the event I would also like to recommend you to mark your calendars for our upcoming physical event as I mentioned during my interaction. So on 8th September we are organizing a physical event uh which is called uh solar made in USA challenges future scenarios and opportunities for PV plus storage manufacturing and strategies under one big beautiful bill. So please mark your

36:25 calendars and uh yeah please try to join us. Uh we'll be happy to welcome you. So this is our uh physical event. Uh but uh in addition we also have two more virtual events that are coming online in in the coming days. So on September 30 we have a exclusive webinar thank you special webinar on back contact uh technology. Very soon you will also have the detailed agenda for this uh so please mark your calendar. Apart from this, we are also planning to do our event on solar and sustainability and uh we are already working on a report on that. Uh so please save the

37:13 date for October 9th for this Tango Solar and Sustainability 2025 conference. Then coming back to the reports uh already you can um download our uh tying news market survey on solar cell production equipment 2025. Uh this is uh released already. You can download it for free. But uh we have one more report in pipeline. Probably by end of this week we will release it already. You can already see the page cover here. So this is uh our tag news cell and module uh I think uh sorry u it says tang news modules and mounting systems overview 2025

37:59 essentially summarizing the module and mounting system products that were uh that were introduced at uh uh inter solar and SNC. So maybe we will see each other at one of our physical events. If not again for sure we will see each other in our virtual events. Till then have a nice day. Bye-bye. >> Bye-bye. Thank you. >> Thank you. [Music]