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0:00 Introducing the man behind one of the largest profilms in the industry and with nearly two decades of market experience, he has walked the walk as a trader. The way I approach the markets is I divide my entry into different small trades and then I manage all those trades as a whole setup. So that gives me flexibility and that active trade management adding to wins adding to losses you can make the whole setup a more profitable one and that's what allows me to keep a very high win ratew. Introducing Saul Loia the CEO of the fivers and a seasoned scalper in the markets. In this episode, Saul unveils not only his trading strategy but also reveals the leading mistake that causes most traders to blow accounts and the simple solution that those who achieve payouts actually do. is becoming easier with AI and machine learning to understand if a trader is going to make
0:45 for a payout or not. >> And just out of curiosity, which ones have you found to be more consistent? >> That's very clear to spot and to see and to explain because a profitable long-term scalper requires more management, patience, discipline. Most of the traders are not there yet. So, most of the traders I see making payouts and getting into larger accounts are swing traders, which just requires, you know, a good signal, a good entry, and then letting the trade go in your favor. Maybe 20 or 30% of the guests I've had on the show speak bad on Prof. I'm a big fan of Profilms. I think they're a great tool. Yes, there's denied payouts. Yes, there's people that got scammed, rugpulled. I'm not denying that. But at the same time, there is people that are 18 years old, made $30,000, life-changing money. There is wins and there is losses in this space. But overall, I think it's a net positive. For someone that is watching, what would you say to them? >> Um,
1:33 >> so let's get into first of all the the 2010 era. So this is the social media presence there. >> But at the same time, someone can look at the industry now with the mess that it is with its pros and cons and say it's hard now. So now that you've seen the industry navigate for more than a decade, uh how do you view the social media elements and and just the ability to learn and find correct guidance compared to your era where it wasn't the same? Yeah. So I think the same problems we have with social media today are the same we we had back in the day you know which is creating unrealistic expectations on traders to what's
2:18 achievable consistently. You know you see the flashy you you see the cars you see the the the Lambos you see all of that >> and it always looks like it's um easily achievable and it's not reality. You know, when when you start trading, >> you it takes time until you understand what you're really doing and your strategies inside out. And if you don't have that mentor to really guide you on the blind spots of being a trader, sometimes you win money and you don't understand why why you're winning and you lose money and you don't understand why you're losing money because the strategy you're performing the same signals, the same strategy and you don't understand why sometimes works and sometime doesn't. So I think those are the blind spots that takes a lot of time for traders to even understand they exist. You know the FOMO
3:03 and the overtrading and am I using the right strategy to my profile as a trader? Am I using the the right strategy at the at the right time? Maybe I don't have you know some maybe I'm my profile is not being a swing >> a swing trader >> based on personality. >> Yeah. Personality and psychology. How how would you connect these dots of personality type or psychology type to how someone should trade to their own strengths? >> That's the question. You know, everyone's different. Everyone's reality is is different. So, you you might have a different trading session. You know, if a forex trader, you have all all day available for for trading, but maybe you have a a job or something. So, you need to you have little screen time or you have the whole day for trading. >> So, if you're going to be scalping, you
3:49 better have more time to trade, right? uh if you're going to be just doing position trading, you might not be doing forex. You should be maybe trading stocks. You know, the the forex market is very rangy. So, understanding which market, what time frame, what uh if you're going to be position trading or scalping, that takes a lot of time. And if there's no there's if there's no one there to guide you on what's your individual situation, what's your individual reality challenges, blind spots and help you overcome those, it takes a lot of time to figure that out by yourself, right? >> And what worked for you in the end, which approach? So I was there and I was, you know, I I discovered a guy who used to taught um trading pin bars on the daily charts and you you you were
4:35 supposed to hold your trades for days on the you you know the daily candles open and close you you you would hold your trades for for weeks >> and I couldn't sleep at night you know just think on the P&L as you grow your accounts you have thousands of dollars floating or hundreds of dollars floating I I couldn't I couldn't sleep properly and at some point I understood that that wasn't working for me. Okay, I used to close the the the profits early or I used to leave the you know the losses run more than needed >> and slowly I understood I needed to go to lower time frames and slowly I went into scalping. you know, today I I scalp the the t the tick chart. Um, you know, I hold a there's a trading room for for the company and I join the trading room every two weeks or every week and I, you know, I show what I do there and I trade um the one minute the the one minute
5:22 chart. >> You went from the opposite end daily, >> the opposite end. And I'm aware it's not the most efficient way of trading. When you're scalping, you pay a lot of commissions and you pay a lot of spread and you work harder. you, you know, um, and you and and you take little profits every time. So, you work you work hard in order to build your account up, but it's just the way it suits my personality because I I can open a session, manage my trades, and end and end the session. I don't need to leave them open for for longer. I don't need to go to sleep with a a trade open. I don't need to do that. So even if that's not the best way to trade or the most efficient trade of way of trading is the best way for me and I'm successful. >> It's interesting because of course there's there's pros and cons to swing
6:08 and and we can call it hypers scalping even. Uh but there is for example personalitydriven. So in your case you probably felt the weight of I enter a trade on the daily time frame and for 3 days it's consolidating on my entry and that's thoughts every day. Oh, then maybe it goes towards your profits and you're like, great, I'm seeing big numbers now. But then a healthy 50% retracement. This is normal. But then you see the numbers going down and I guess this roller coaster was not something correct for for you. >> When it comes into the lower time frame scalping, I get what you mean by it's more work because there's more decisions to make uh in a shorter amount of time. But on the flip side, there is also you can gain the same risk-to-reward in instead of days or weeks, it can be done in minutes. So you have quicker feedback. uh you have um depending on
6:54 your beliefs but more clarity on the lower time frame. Now that you've had a taste of both sides uh apart from your personality or or your preferences there from a technicals perspective from a trader watching what would you say are the pros and cons from someone who is daily time frame swing trading down to M1 scalping. Um, again, I think I think there's pros and cons for all styles and all time frames as long as you understand what what are the statistics be, you know, behind each one of the styles and you understand them and you embrace them and you're willing to work with those stats, you're good. For example, I scalp and I know I my my strategy or my style of trading has a break even slightly negative uh riskreward ratio for
7:41 example, but I keep a very high win rate, you know, 80 plus win rate. >> So your your a good trade is one to one or maybe even less. >> Yeah. >> Oh, interesting. Okay. >> So I win, you know, I I win a lot of trades, a lot a lot of trades, you know, dozens, hundreds of trades. But when I lose, I might end up losing, you know, the whole setup might end up losing more than my wins. >> Very interesting. >> So, I'm I'm I'm fine with that. You know, I I leave that reality and I know as long as I'm keeping my my higher win rate, I'm good. >> If you were if you if you would, you know, when you just open YouTube and you listen someone, you will always hear try to keep both high, right? A high win rate, a high resol ratio. I've seen very few traders and you know
8:27 from my position today I scan thousands of tra traders very few traders that can keep both ratios high consistently and long term. So there's always a trade-off on the on the trading style you're using and as long as you understand the reality and the real long-term stats of both and you can keep to them and you know filtering out the bad setups and just sticking to the A+ setups and performing performing well. Um, I think the both the the pros and cons, they just come down to, okay, screen time, uh, efficiency on on on training costs, um, decision making, um, uh, speed, all of that. But again, it it all comes down to what what's best for you.
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10:01 >> Do you believe that a high win rate and a high risk reward are they something that they are connected that uh once your win rate goes high naturally your risk reward has to go lower and vice versa or is there people that you've seen or is it is it a truth in the market that you can sustain both to a high level as long as you master something else? I just know what I see, you know, from all their accounts. I know the traders who have very high win rates, they h they tend to have a onetoone risk-to-reward ratio >> and traders who have very high risk reward ratio 31, 4:1, even 2:1, >> they have a break even win rate or even negative, which is with they're both profitable, right? Yes. But I've seen very few trades or traders having, you
10:47 know, a a 3 to1 win rate and a 70 plus or 80 plus sorry 3 to1 reservoir ratio and 70 plus 80 plus win rate. I've I've I've seen counted once >> and in terms of let's just say longevity of a trader because I'm sure you've seen people that are consistent for two weeks, three weeks and then blow an account or others that are consistent for months and then somehow blow an account. Wh which approach in terms of high risk reward or higher risk reward or high win rates do you think preserves consistency in the market to stop somebody hitting a spiral of negative emotions and they end up blowing the account and you know denying themselves of their own payouts? >> I think in prop firm area era um the profile of traders and the behavior of
11:33 traders have changed from back in the day when we used to trade only brokerage accounts. you know, the fact that traders are developing the skill of getting paid and not necessarily the the the skill of trading. Okay. >> Gamifying the correct profit industry. Okay. >> And and and they and they counting if they're profitable or not profitable depending on how much they investing on challenges against how much they're getting paid of trading companies and not necessarily on their P&L because we have a lot of traders. We pay to traders who are negative on the P&L. You know what I mean? On the on the overall uh P&L because you may pay them a payout of let's say 2K and then they lose 5K or
12:20 10K. So the trader is >> profitable you know on his payout to to investment in challenges but on his P&L he's negative. >> So >> um going back to your question I think It's not a thing. I I know traders in the fibers who make the most money and who get gets to the to the highest accounts. They're not scalping. They're holding trades for longer and they tend to aim for larger ris against uh win rates. So they're focusing more on large risk rewards and not so much on >> interesting >> on win rates. with regards to your own approach which I'm very curious about because you've said some things that I've actually never spoke to someone uh
13:06 first of all is someone on the lower time frame M1 I I think a very widespread misbelief is M1 is noise and lower time frame you cannot find clarity you're going to end up either taking too many losses too many decisions and and too many emotions uh whereas for you you found on M1 more clarity more information and a very high win rate so completely the opposite of what people would expect what is it in M1 that you like and and how are you able to sustain a high win rate when there is more decisions to make per day? >> I think that's a that's a great question. Um, when I'm trading, I think I'm more focused on the trade management than on the entry and exit of the trades. And I'm more focused on the trade management than on the direction
13:52 of the trades. Okay? I believe I trade forex, that's my bread and butter, you know, Euro USD, dollar JPY. So the forex market by essence is a it's a ranging market. You know, you don't want your currency going 10% up and down against any other currency. Okay, that's not the the the purpose of the of of of you know, currencies on on countries. So I will I will find a setup and then I will find key levels. For me, you know, supply and demand, that's what I trade. I find the key levels where strong movements were initiated either to the upward to the upside or to the downside and around these areas I'll trying to make my entries. So the way I approach the markets is I divide my entry into
14:37 different small trades. Okay. So instead of going let's say one lot I go with 10 um mini lots. Okay. So I divide my entry into better and more precise entry points and then I manage the whole all those trades as a whole setup. Um. Oh, interesting. Okay. >> Okay. So then I don't I don't I'm not so engaging to one of these trades. I'm more focusing on the whole setup. >> Okay. So the whole lots, the whole 10 mini lots and not each one of those mini lots. So that gives me flexibility and that active trade management which is also you know a a pivot point in my career as a trader. Uh going from passive management into active management. That was that was a an aha moment, you know, because when you just
15:24 passively managing your trades, you're just letting the market stats to, you know, to play themsel. >> But if you actively manage your trades, so if you add into trades or add into add into wins, add into losses, you scale out of wins or scale out of losses, uh, then you can you can make the whole setup a more profitable one. And that's what allows me to keep a very high win rate. >> Okay, there's a lot of things I can explore here. So number one, let's say your initial point of interest, supply and demand. Before we get into the entries, how are you qualifying a supply and demand on what time frame, what size, what criteria inside the point of interest just so I know what are your key levels. >> Okay, it's always challenging to explain all of this without showing the charts. Okay, but I'll try to make it as clear as possible. So I start off the daily
16:11 charts and I I try to get my bias from there. I'm trying to understand if today's day is going has more chances to go bullish or bearish depending on the overall trend on the dailies. So that that gives me a bias for the day. Then I go into the hourly time frame and I just mark the key levels those supply and demand areas. And an ideal setup is when I have an entry either on the five minute chart or the one minute chart. >> Okay. um on on a supply or demand area from the hourly charts that allows that aligns to the daily bias. So you have a if I have my bias from the dailies, my levels from the hourlies and my setup all on the same direction either bullish or bearish, that's a that's a winner,
16:56 right? That's an a a plus setup for me. >> Um if something's not aligned on direction, then I know I need to reduce my risk or reduce the the lot size I'm using. Um, so that that's kind of what I'm what I'm looking in the market every day. And then my management happens on the one minute chart. >> So when you have, let's say, a bullish daily bias, a 1 hour demand area aligned with that bias >> and then you mentioned five and one minute. Are you taking that 1 hour zone and and refining it on M1 or are you watching reactions in the zone? >> So I refine on the on a one minute chart just to have a more precise entry point and then I look for the setup. could be a a breakout or could be a retest, you know, a reaction on the area and then the retest of the one hour chart and then I manage everything on the on the one on the one minute chart. >> And you mentioned you distribute your let's say $100,000 account, 1% risk,
17:42 you're distributing $1,000 entry of risk across this uh demand area referring to M1. Is there a specific strategy where at the top of the zone on a demand area, it's you go heavy first and then less and less or is it opposite? It's 5% of your entry and then more and more as you get deeper. >> Yeah. So usually if if if that's a good um if that's a good area, you tend to see a strong reaction of the area. >> So back in the day, I used to wait for confirmation, you know, a a a pattern, whatever it is. And many times I would, you know, the the the reaction is so strong that would be left out of the of the trade. >> So at some point and if you you know the way I I approach the the entry is without confirmation. So without because
18:28 if I'm going without confirmation, I start small and then if it goes deeper into the demand area, I I add into that into that entry. >> But the whole the overall risk, you know, my all my stop loss are below the demand area and I'm not risking more than the let's say 1% risk. >> So I start small and then I add into it. >> So I'm I'm seeing you're weighing a few things. Number one is uh the cost of let's say price comes all the way down to the the lowest point in your demand area. So this is ideal. All of your entries got triggered. >> Correct. >> However, the the initial entry had a wider stop-loss. So then your overall riskreward is is uh lower compared to if you had one entry uh with the smallest stop-loss compared to this distributed entries. But then on the other side what
19:14 you're what you're balancing against is well what if it taps the top of the zone and flies. Correct. At least I have something in the market. Correct. >> Do you think this is a more worthwhile approach than just somewhere in the middle of the zone have a have a equilibrium of uh average stop loss and one position as opposed to maybe five things to manage? >> Yeah, I think that's something you need to test to to see how many times the trade would trigger you and how many times you would be left of the of the trade. >> For me, I like being active. So, I'm happy going going first and then if it goes, you know, to the middle of the area on to the bottom to add more into it just to be, you know, active in the market. >> A lot of traders end up frustrated bouncing from website to website trying to figure out which prop firm is best for them. And that's why I'm proud to bring to you a partner of the show prop
20:00 firm match which is a complete trusted and comprehensive comparison website and with all kind of filters on their website. You can select the prop firm based on exactly what you are looking for and see their credibility based on verified reviews of actual customers and also get insights on how long that prop firm's been around, if they are denying payouts or not. And overall in one place, you have third party verified information so you can make a sound decision on where you should put your money. Because profatch is the largest comparison website in the industry. They're able to negotiate the best prices and the best discount codes with all of their prop firms. But also with their loyalty program, you are able to collect points from your purchases to go towards even more credits and more discounts in your future prop firm purchases. So go ahead and click the link in the description to research the best profit for you and find the best profit discounts in the industry. >> And uh are you managing once uh the all
20:47 all entries are how many entries would you do actually out of curiosity? >> There's no there's no rule. I mean if let's say if I have these three entry points because I have the top of the area the middle of the area and the of the bottom of the area could be three entries or could be each one of these entry let's say five trades or 10 trades you know just because that gives me more flexibility on managing everything. >> What causes that difference between three and five >> just the amount of the lot size the the over lot size I'm using and how you know how much flexibility I need. It's very discretional. Is that based on what's in the point of interest or is that based on how price is reacting in the zone? >> It's everything but it's something it's something you you you get like natural got you know used to it and and it's somewhat hard to put into paper very
21:33 it's hard to explain in words but when you seen it it's very clear to you how to how to approach that setup. >> Um but it would be you know three entry points or or or six or nine or 10. It's all the same. you just uh >> and the trade management which you said is actually the key not the entry itself. Correct. >> I'm curious about this because am I correct in saying to have a high win rate >> um you would therefore probably have a high break even rate of price coming back to your entry because uh if you just let's say put 10 entries in or five entries in and you have your target a lot of the time it can also fail on you and reverse but then if you're very actively entering you can have a lot of unnecessary losses or avoidable losses. Does that mean you're using break even quite a lot? >> Yeah, a lot. Yeah, you you would see also because you're averaging a lot of
22:19 your trades. So, Toms, if the if the if the zone is very, you know, is very wide and from the top of the zone to the bottom of the top, there's a lot of, you know, a lot of room. Sometimes you take, you know, once it goes back to the top of the top of the zone and you don't see the reaction is happening, the price action is not there, the volatility is not there. I might just take all the top ones for break even. I'm I'm only profiting from the bottom ones, you know. Okay. So only first entries are at break even >> because because somewhat, you know, it stays, you know, market starts ranging within the range and it's not reacting as you wished. So, so, uh, yeah, would be would be interesting to just pull the the stats of the account to see
23:05 >> and and once once you have price coming into your area that you're you're ideally looking for price to come deep into your zone and then quickly react out because you're scalping or session trading, is there certain things that you see prior to the day or during the day that would increase your chance of this happening? Fast reactions, a lot of volatility, uh, immediate bounce and actually coming deeper into the zone. >> Yeah. So many times it comes on how weak or strong price is um pulling back towards the area. Okay. So let's say you have a strong bounce that creates the initiation the the demand level that's the area I want to be active. So if the market comes on a compression on a weak channel towards that demand area there tends to be a strong reaction. But if it
23:51 comes down strongly aggressively towards that area then it might take a while for it to to you know to accumulate and then react. >> So if I see uh this weak channel coming into the strong demand area I'm all in because I I'm expecting a strong reaction because all demand you know supply and demand towards that channel has been consumed. Yes. >> So that's where I take advantage of that of that strong reaction. Do you believe in liquidity manipulation, whatever the term we want to use for it, but you know, price building a support level, a double bottom, triple bottom, and then spiking lower to allow price to come higher >> like institutional manipulation and all of that. >> Maybe not necessarily the the buzzwords or the conspiracy behind it. I'm more just interested in is this a price action signature you monitor, trade, or utilize?
24:37 >> Um, not really. Um and and you know back in the day when I just started there wasn't this uh terminology you know the lingo has also changed there was no uh ICT there was no there was no ICT around not publicly at least so I think we're all trading the same the same concepts and same price action order blocks all of that wasn't around you know um so I think we're all trading the same just with different names or terminology >> um institutional manip manipulation and all of I don't think I've I've spoke to institutional traders. I don't think they're, you know, hunting our retail stops. You know, >> it's an interesting topic which I wanted to bring uh onto later, but it's the idea of
25:23 there might be certain price action signatures and if we see it and use it, okay, but then when we try and explain it, that's where it can get a little bit tricky. Correct? >> Because I've had people on the show that says, "Yeah, the market is heavily manipulated." Others that say, "No, that doesn't make any sense." I don't even know where I specifically lie on the explanation, but one thing that I find curious is the the retail industry right now, the millions of traders that exist, majority of them in the last few years have moved towards prop firms. >> And therefore, a lot of the activity in the market from retail traders is on prop firms now. And pretty much all or most prop firms are a B-book environment. It's it's a demo simulated environment. So then all of these orders that are getting manipulated, they're not in the real markets. they're in they're in a BBbook demo environment on the broker or prop firm's back end. Correct. So then if these orders don't
26:08 exist then they're not going to be hunted therefore. So it does get interesting there. >> But even before props you know most the default strategy of CFD brokers is also booking you know not not only not only props. So >> and and let's not forget which is that it's the CFD environment. So it's just a copy of the of the real movements. um you know it takes millions of dollars to move on a forex market takes millions of dollar to move each currency per yeah per right so it's very expensive for an institutional to move the market towards a certain area just to do the opposite so usually what what you see is trying to grab some liquidity at certain level and a different institution may be pushing the market to a to a different activity >> um I know from institutional forex
26:54 traders they're not even looking at retail retail levels or retail accounts Um maybe smaller markets, maybe the stocks one are more easily, you know, you have penny stocks and all of that and you have, you know, the the big hedge funds and all of that might be easier to to push a stock higher. >> Um the forks market is more it's harder for that to be >> at the same time. Although I do agree exactly what you're saying, I do see all the time a very clear demand area on the 1 hour time frame on Euro USD. price will come in, consolidate on the demand, come all the way to the extreme and then during a London open just wick through, break the demand area and then go bullish for the rest of the day. So you just see price uh wick through the demand area 5 10 pips and then went in
27:39 that direction you wanted. What happens here? What do you do in this case? In fact, >> yeah. um what I do I take the loss you know if if I was if I had if I had my stop losses I take the loss and if I see this the strong the strong reaction then I try to rejoin >> okay >> cuz many many times you're expecting that um whipso to happen but that one time that the whipso doesn't come and it follows through >> I've been there I've I've felt the pain of you know losing thousand of dollars not profit capital you know you know personal capital or investor's capital And I'm not going I'm not going that way again. So I I set my stop losses and if I get stopped out and then I have the opportunity to rejoin, I will do that instead of hoping or waiting for the
28:26 whipso, you know, to to happen. >> So all of your stop losses are at the bottom of the demand area. Correct. So even if you see M1 breakouts, uh you could put the stop loss at the bottom of the breakout zone, at the bottom of the consolidation, but you still choose to have it in the demand area. Everything at the demand. Correct? So therefore your uh riskreward the lower you get uh into the demand area the last entries have a better riskreward. Correct. >> So then you mentioned because you have a flexible uh risk-to-reward uh profile. Does that mean you have an equal exit for all positions or do you scale out in a similar fashion? >> No. So my my exit both stop- losses and take profits tend to say tend to be the same for all the for all the trades. >> Okay. And that's that's why my riskreward ratio is break even or even negative. >> But the fact that I don't scale out on
29:12 my wins is just because that, you know, I'm sure you've been there, Walker. You know, you you you want to ride the trade, you bring your stop losses to to break even and then reverses and takes you out for break even trades. >> And I think that's what most traders are doing and most traders are break even or losing money. So, I just prefer to bank profits and if if I need to rejoin, then I'll rejoin. But I'm taking full losses, full full wins and partial losses. No. So, if I see if I see trades going >> sideways, not going in that direction I want. I might be taking partial, you know, I'd be scaling out of the losing position. Interesting. Okay. So, I'll be taking partial losses, but I'll be
29:58 taking full full wins. M >> your average zone refined to M1 the demand area on Euro USD I'm guessing like 15 20 pips is the depth of the zone >> let yeah on the Euro USD could be could be 20 >> so therefore because you're doing almost a one to one risk reward that means uh after price has bounced 20 pips out of the zone you're out of the market meaning to say if price you know let's say Asia range has consolidated right above your demand area London open happens in Euro USD comes into your demand you're lading your entries By the end of London session, you're probably out. Like you're not holding a trade for hours or days. It's it's maybe even 30 minutes, 2 hours. Correct. It's around this duration. >> Correct. >> Uh this is exactly what I'm doing, which is reason why I'm I'm talking through this. Um because I'm a big believer in
30:44 demand. Sure. It's a very powerful concept. Uh and if you align it with the daily time frame, sure. But then there's also a lot of negatives with swing trading that I found because I used to be swing trading too. One of them was if I was entering on M1 time frame and I was able to have a sharp stop loss but then my exits was on the daily time frame I had the potential to have a huge riskreward. Absolutely. Which seems like a dream but in reality in execution you realize you're up 1 to 10 riskreward let's say and you haven't taken a partial. So if your target is 1 to 15 that means you're willing to risk 10% of unrealized gain to then gain another 5%. It's a negative riskreward to hold. So then I went to the opposite end just like you and I thought why not just take an exit on the average session movements. If London uh London session on EuroD average is 25 pips, let me look
31:30 to exit something around 25 pips. Uh because on the best day on the worst day, this is the average movement and then it retraces, comes back to break even, I can get in again or whatever the case may be. >> But I in this case partial at the average London movement, I will take a partial around the 25 pip mark >> because then the average daily range might be 50 60. So I allow I I I can potentially capture the rest. >> Do you consider the average daily range alongside your session range? >> No, not at all. I'm always looking at levels. So I'm I'm not looking at ATRs. I'm not looking at average range. I'm not looking at that. I'm I'm placing my both my stop losses and my take profits are at key levels >> because >> I I know the market will fluctuate very easily from key level to key level. >> Yes. I don't want to ask the market to break those key levels in order to get
32:15 to my targets, which is what happens to a lot of retail traders. Their their stop their take profit just above the key level and they're so close and the market reverses and I don't understand why. >> I don't want I want my take my TP to be just below the next key level >> to be safe. >> Yeah. To be safe. And then I see there's strong momentum. I'll rejoin. You know, that's for me a new opportunity to rejoin the the trade. That's a new setup. But I take I take all my profits at the key level. >> And um those counter levels in a demand scenario, you're looking to buy, you got in and now you're thinking about your exit. Is this something you're already predefined based on counter supply zones that were building into that demand or is it Asia high, session high, previous day high? >> No. Usually my my my exits are from the
33:02 supply areas on the five-minute chart >> that allowed you to come into the demand. Okay. And uh it's just a hard C TP level. You're not looking for rejection or anything? >> Nothing. >> Okay. >> Just hard. >> And it's not a scale out like your entry. It's it's one fixed level. >> Yeah. >> Very very interesting approach. I don't think I've sold someone that is doing it like this, but it it does make a lot of sense. Now, the next thing I want to transition towards is the the traders you mentioned on on the back end that you see. You have data of probably hundreds of thousands of traders and you're mentioning that the most success is found with people holding trades for a little bit longer. >> Correct. >> And going for a a positive riskreward. Correct. Now this is opposite to your own beliefs and and and what you are doing in reality. Where why do you think this difference lies between your own approach that is working for you and and many traders that are profitable on your
33:48 platform? Um what is the difference here? >> I think um taking trading skill to the level that you need to be a a a profit profitable long-term sculper, you know, for for the long run, it takes a lot of time, takes a lot of skill. Mhm. >> Um and a lot of work and uh most of the traders that are coming to the prop industry, they're not yet in that in that stage. And as I mentioned, it requires more management and more patience and more discipline and more screen time. Um so I think holding that for for months in order to you know scale your accounts and to get into the the bigger payouts and all of that, most of the traders are not there yet. So
34:34 most of the traders I see successfully, you know, making payouts and getting into larger accounts are swing traders, which just requires, you know, a good signal, a good entry, and then letting the letting the trade go in your favor. >> You mentioned earlier that people maybe are break even traders. If they were to do one account, long-term track record, >> they might be losing, they might be break even. But in a specific approach with prop firms, you you just simply have the ratio of your evaluation fee payouts and you might blow an account. You might be down 10% but it only cost you a few hundred but your payouts might be thousands of dollars. Correct. >> So in your real P&L in your pocket, you're up but your your equity curve is all over the place. Correct. So I completely understand this game. And would you would you speculate that the
35:19 traders that you see success in on your books that are getting the large payouts are the ones that are more skilled and therefore better swing traders that you find or as people that are just better at the game? >> I think they're better at the at the game. Um, if I share with you a little bit of the risk management behind behind the company, I think that would, you know, give a lot of clarity on on what happens behind the scene. As I mentioned, you know, back in the day when there was no a lot of companies and no a lot of competition, um the profit split was also, you know, smaller with the with the traders and was very easy to go, you know, a book with them to, you know, send all the all the trades to the market and then 50/50 with the traders and and the you know, the the the
36:04 maximum loss was smaller than today. So, the risk management was simpler. Let's go that way. >> Interesting. Okay. Ju just before you get into this because I'm very curious. >> I thought and a lot of people watching do think that well if you have let's say 90% of traders are losing then you just trade the opposite of what they're doing and then you have 90% win rate. >> Is is this and I'm just speaking to many they're like this is not a reality that you can actually execute upon. Why is that? Um first because because the the costs are very very high you know when you trading when you sending you know trades to the market >> in terms of volume of orders >> volume of orders you know the the LPS charge commissions and and and and fees per volume and spreads. So usually on a
36:52 lot of props us included we um we sponsor the spreads for example. Okay. The the spread in the market might be different. So that's fine as long as we take it into the business uh model. >> We're we're doing good. >> Um but if you want to take all your trades and do the opposite. So the trader is paying a commission. You are paid another commission. You pay you paid twice commission. You pay twice um spread. >> You paid the LP fee. And all those costs make just unprofitable. You know the whole setup unprofitable. Uh so just taking everything and going against or doing the opposite of your of your trades, it doesn't work. >> Interesting. So previously uh the abook
37:37 model was working >> you mentioned h how was it working back then and and now you're going on to say how it changed I guess. So what was working back then for the for the props to be able to a book a lot of them. >> So the programs used to be more expensive and the overall the maximum draw down used to be smaller. Okay. So different economics actually >> the economics were different and the profit plate was 50% 50%. So if a trade used to lose money most of the draw down was covered by the fee. >> I see. Uh but when they used to when when they money so we used to split the profit you know 50/50 so we did good and also you know there there's um um the economics were were different
38:22 >> uh with competition with you know when when new companies came into the market and the the the prices went down and the the profit split increased in traders favor that brought a new challenge to the risk management of the companies >> um which is a good challenge for us you know that made us you know think out of the box and creatively >> okay >> and we thought you know doing BOK would be the the the right call and turns out if a company is only booking the trades will also not be profitable in the long in the long run because you're paying the payouts but you know when a trader is not losing you're saving that that money but you're not making any profit but when
39:07 a trader is making money, you're not making any money with him, but still you need to pay him. So you don't you're relying only on the on the fees. >> So if firm is relying only on the evaluation fees as their only revenue source and obviously their biggest expense will be the payouts and their team and so forth. >> If they were to do this in 2025, it wouldn't be a profitable model. >> Yeah, it's not sustainable. >> Interesting. I mean you you may have short-term success you know as the hype goes and a lot of people come but eventually you will face those payouts and it's not sustainable you need to >> so in pursuit of sustainability longevity to be able to afford with ease the payouts what did you have to do to adapt >> um without going into too much detail but you need to profile and you need to understand you know today it is becoming
39:53 bit easier with AI and machine learning but to as quick as possible to understand if a trader um is going to make for a payout or not just based on on stats >> and based on that you decide if you a book, Book, Cbook, go against >> and this is on what criteria just their behavior in the evaluations. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And uh are you looking into other things like age, demographic? A questionnaire maybe is just only on performance. >> Only on performance. And just out of curiosity, swing, scalp, um lower time frame, big stop-loss, short, news trading, all of these variables that you see, which ones have you found to be more consistent uh in terms of any sort of profit?
40:39 >> Um you know, with the m with with all the machine learning, everything is changing also for us, you know, because you you let the models work for you. So you don't even you don't even have all the details of what the model is is doing in order to to get >> you get results actually. >> Yeah. you get the results. Before that, let's say one year ago, two year ago, we we you know, we we still have them, you know, the pool accounts. And then if you have the right profile again with algorith algorithms and everything, you have the profile of the traders and you have the overall book. You're only looking at an individual trader, but you have the book and um and and you manage, you know, the the whole portfolio. >> So, when you see the portfolios are are performing good, you can leverage those. If they're performing, you know,
41:25 wrongly, then you can you can uh go against the portfolio and all of that. >> For the last two years, a proud sponsor of the show is a topranked leading prop firm, Alpha Capital. And for the years that I've been working with them and the thousands and thousands of viewers, you guys that have been working with them through the discount codes of Titans of Tomorrow. It's clear for me to see why they are a top ranked prop firm in the industry. They have also reached a monumental milestone of $100 million in payouts. And with the multiplestep plans and the multiple package types they have, there's going to be an option catered specifically for what you're looking for. So you can buy an evaluation account catered to your needs at the most competitive prices. And with our discount code toot for Titans of Tomorrow, you're able to get the most unbeatable unmatched prices in the industry with a leading trusted prop firm. And with that being said, let's get back to the episode. when the
42:10 machine learning has identified a profitable trader that you you are in this hybrid approach a book and booking with the profiles you are a booking >> um identified by AI now you've uh got conviction in this because of the data that you have and now you're a booking these clients I feel like this kind of approach is probably adopted by many with brokers with you know different risk teams um but the difference with broker I want to draw this parallel is people are trading their own money so someone has deposited $5,000 it's their hardearned money. So, the likelihood of consistent behavior is probably higher. Whereas with prop firms, you always have this in the back of your mind. If I paid 500, I've got a 500 payout. I'm break even. It's not my money. So, you might be consistent for one week, two weeks, and then one day you wake up and you think my max daily loss is 3,000. Why
42:58 not? And then you throw it. And this is unpredictable. This is just human greed or or random behavior that the machine learning can no one can identify uh prior. But then this becomes a big issue because if you a book them and then they have consistent behavior and then one day they change their behavior, >> it can lead to a a damaging amount of loss. How do you navigate this to still have sustainability? >> Yeah, at the end if uh if it's a matter of large numbers, you know, you don't you don't we don't we don't analyze any specific trader, you know, individually. It's we look at at things, you know, more >> from a broader perspective as a as a whole portfolio. So yeah, we we might have a someone a trader in a profile. We don't know the trader will just know his traits, you know, we're doing something with his trades and if he change the
43:45 behavior, we we might suffer from it or we might, you know, benefit from it. So we we we don't know, but we're looking at traders individually. We just have >> and in general machine learning, it's a word I hear around, but truly I don't fully understand what it is or how it works. if you can shed some light upon what it means to be using machine learning for your risk management. >> Um I don't think we're we're very you know the gap we know is not very large. you know, there's the the AI team and the data team working on that. >> You see the models and you just see lines and lines of code just running and you you get the results from from those from the codes and then you're try to build models around what the you know the the the firms that are let's say any
44:32 of the top 10 firms would you argue they are all utilizing similar strategies or do you share information do you share and collaborate or each firm has their their own way? Yeah, each firm has its own way. Um, I don't know what's the risk management guidelines of other firms. I trust, you know, they they do. >> The reason I asked that is because I spoke to a another prop owner not too long ago in New York and he was mentioning this gamification side of it and how it's becoming an issue because when when individuals are trading with pure intentions, that's what it's there for and that's predictable behavior and you know, you can adapt your risk profiles for this. But when you have organized groups that are just here to exploit the system, just like you have organized crime, you have organized
45:17 people going to the casino and and gaming the system. Uh at least in the casino, you can catch the card counters and the the guys with the glasses on, whatever strategies they use. Um because everything is inside one room. It's inside the casino. But in the prop space, they might be buying on your prop, selling on another one, and and playing the numbers game. But if you were all to share information, then you could catch the cheaters. But now if you're all individual part uh components you cannot find these cheaters. So and I know it's on a rise. These cheaters are on a rise. What can you do to to mitigate this or is it just cost of business? It is what it is. >> Um it's a little bit of everything. You know the at the fibers we I'll give you a a long answer for this but at the fibers we're always aiming to
46:06 you know to to get to the authentic traders. Okay, we work very very hard to bring you know the the community and support for traders >> and I I I like to believe that more genuine and authentic traders come to us. We have um you know we do have this phenomena of um organized groups we know how to identify them and usually they don't get into the funded accounts. Okay, we we we know how to spot them. We know how to identify them. you know, we have a risk team and a dealing team and everything in place in order to to spot them. Um, those who do get to the to the funded stages, as long as as long as we understand what are they doing, we're fine with it because we know what to do with their trading. The problem comes
46:52 when, as you said, okay, he's doing something consistently and then one morning he wakes up and he does something very different. Um so we do fight this phenomena of um gamers or organized group and all of that that's our you know sadly our large large um you know a large part of our operation goes towards that um and and I think we're doing good on you know spotting them and stopping them before they go into the funded stages. So because um your firm is one of the first firms 2016 when when it was initially founded there was only maybe FTMO and maybe a couple others I don't know but in your time uh especially around 2020
47:39 co that's when like every every mother and a dog and everyone had a prop firm and the rise of influencer props I I want to understand is there any anything for us to learn or observe from your experience of I want to call them real prop firms versus influencerowned prop firms where you're sitting with a team and a risk team and a and you know you have a full infrastructure whereas these guys have just some followers online and and maybe a tech provider partner. What difference have you seen in longevity infrastructure and general business practices? Um I think for traders if I was a trader just coming into the industry I would feel overwhelmed of the amount of offers out there of their choice amount of propers out there the amount of uh
48:26 content the amount of everything and it's very difficult to choose which proper to work with. I think traders need to um they need to get very informed on which profs to work with. Um, I think I don't know many of the prof managers or founders. Um, and I want to believe they come with the right intentions into the into the game into the industry >> because at the end of the day, what we're trying to accomplish here is what we uh talk at the beginning of the of the conversation. We want to help traders overcome the the big challenges of being a trader which is lack of capital, psychology, pressure, lack of community, lack of information, lack of
49:12 education, all of that. >> So we work very very hard with that. So I think if as a trader you see a company with the right values which is investing in you as a trader, they might have aligned interest with you as a trader. um the traders back in the day, I don't see them a lot today, but back in the day before the technology providers came, there was a a lot of attempts to just do a lot of marketing around the the trades. And I think that kind of damaged the reputation of a lot of of the industry as a whole. Um they brought prices down, they brought, you know, they they make everything more gamey and um and the risk management challenges around it. Mhm. >> Um but if you go to larger companies,
50:00 well known, high reputation, I think you're in good hands. >> Yeah. The reason I draw the comparison is because as quick as these influencer ones came, >> they very quickly disappeared too. And and with that a lot of upset customers and traders, >> um when when we are to compare just overall infrastructure, I can see that >> most people I want to say come in with good intentions. There are the bad actors like anywhere but majority even the ones that failed their prop firm they they came in with good intentions but it's just a hard business model and or it's harder than they thought before they started >> uh which is a reality I'm sure you're aware of because you you've you've had every high and low in the industry because you've been navigating for >> for many years almost a decade now actually your next year will be 10 years >> so with that much time in the game
50:45 >> what have you seen as certain things that you had to do to see how others are. You know, it's a price wall to the bottom. It's a gamy, you know, the better the conditions of the trader, but in the end, uh it's it's harder to be a sustainable business model. And and the reason I say this is because maybe 20 or 30% of the guests I've had on the show, they speak bad on prop firms. And I I I'm a big fan of prop firms. I think they're a great tool. And yes, there's denied payouts. Yes, there's people that got scammed, rugg pulled. There's there is these bad things that happened. I'm not denying that. But at the same time, there is people that are 18 years old, >> living at home, uh, one year into their trading, made $30,000, life-changing money. So, there is wins and there is losses in this space. But overall, I think it's a net positive. But when I
51:31 speak to these guys that are like profs, no, don't do it. It's it's because they're looking at the pocket of the bad ones. But then if you look at the pockets of the good ones, the top five that have been around for many years, it it is a different case for someone that is watching or followers influencers that says no profs are bad. Avoid them, just focus on your own money like the people used to do. >> What would you say to them of like why is prof worthwhile? >> Yeah, I remember a lot of videos done um around the fibers, why you shouldn't trade with the Fiverr? It's better for you to trade your own capital. You know, we used to you we we used to offer low leverage and we still promote low leverage than high leverage. It's amazing to see how low leverage traders live longer than high leverage
52:17 traders. Okay, that's a different conversation. But they used to say, okay, take your money, take it into offshore broker, trade with one to 500 leverage, you will make more money than trading with the fivers with low leverage. Okay, that that was kind of the point. Um I think I think training with with a prop firm like the Fiverr or any of the of the big ones um will give you a you know we solve one of the large pains of traders which you know I remember myself which is that okay do I withdraw profit or do I grow my account okay because you you have the leverage you have the account you grow your account by 10% and now what okay what you with that you keep scaling it. You withdraw your profits and then you're
53:03 back to your initial balance. So pro firms they they solve this. You know at the fers every time you you reach a milestone um we scale up your account. So let's say you start with um um 10k account you make 10% we scale your account to 15 15,000 15k account regardless of you withdrawing your profit. So you can >> you can withdraw profits and scale your account which is not something you can do with your own account right >> so even if it's going to take longer because you have reduced leverage than the one to 500 or 1,000 you can get a offshore broker it's worth you know the that that that scale of accounts and withdrawing that's something you cannot do on your own capital. So that would be
53:48 my argument for that. The next one I want to get into is kind of this might be uh a tough question, but I I'll ask it because a lot of people want to know is just the overall conflict of interest side of things. Not specifically your firm. I think every firm has this dilemma where >> I I think back in 2016 people were not so aware in 2025. I think every prop trader knows that the evaluations pay for other people's payouts. It's it's a business model. >> My stance is is absolutely fine. I want the prop firms to thrive as a business because then they can afford the payouts and you don't want profits struggling because that's when the denied payouts and the problems come. So if the prop firm is winning, the winning traders are winning, everyone's happy. Uh and the people that are blowing money on these valuations, they need to reconsider their choices. If you if if you haven't found consistency, don't blow your
54:35 money. That's individual responsibility. But at the same time a lot of firms they will now do predatory practices or or slippage or other things that are only there to cause uh traders to struggle and that becomes the >> uh the benefits for the firm but then to the detriment of the trader because there is a underlying conflict of interest. >> I can look in this and say well brokers do the same where the winners are paid out by the losers uh in the sense of your deposits pay the payouts on brokers. Even when you zoom out and look at the whole market, you can say, well, there's no money created in the market. It goes from winners to losers. So the zero sum prop firm, zero some sum brokers, zero sum markets. I understand that's how the world operates, but the predatory practices and the conflicts of interest brings an ethical conversation here. So I wanted to hear your thoughts on this.
55:20 >> Yeah, I think for everyone who who've traded with the fers, uh, we always trying to give traders the best trading conditions. You know we I told you you know we we sometime we sponsor the spreads you will get it you'll trade with us major pairs with zero spreads that's not real market conditions right that we we get from our LPS a certain spread and we mark up down okay because we want for traders to have a better position. So even we when we going out to the market on on real accounts we might be losing on the spreads we absorb that loss but the the the the econ the macroeconomics that are still in place. So we we never go you know we I don't I
56:06 don't think we have a certain thing that goes against our traders. Okay. Our interest with the traders are aligned. you know we we don't have any conflict with interests I told you we don't look at traders individually so as long as it's not something that we cannot replicate in the market so they might come traders with EAS that we cannot really make money on the market with those or emulators or rollover scalpers or or spread spread calpers or we cannot make money with that but as long as the traders are authentic speculative traders and we know how to manage that in the market whatever risk management we need to apply you know we I think our interests with
56:52 them are aligned we don't have any predatory practice wouldn't have a slipage and all of that wouldn't we don't need any any of that >> the the next topic is is uh more future orientated and it's >> surrounding this word regulation now I I think it's a very misunderstood term and it has a lot of depth to it where is what jurisdiction what there's a lot of things that come here and even the broker industry which is much more mature. You have the se shells and the the offshore brokerages but then you have the regulated ones with less leverage and harder conditions. So people still pick the unregulated option uh despite regulated options being there. But I want to draw a parallel because this is from your time uh the my forex funds the rise and fall let's say I actually didn't keep in touch with
57:37 what happened to that case in the end. in the beginning I did but uh just generally how you viewed that situation how you learned from it um to put maybe measures in place and just your general stance on what what do you think the industry is going to happen in the next 5 to 10 years with the regulation >> yeah I like this topic because we are in conversations with the regulators we have actively approached them and ask them >> interesting okay >> ask them and request from them a regulation to the industry because I think it's something necessarily it's something that traders and companies will benefit from a regulation in Which uh jurisdictions or which regulators are you? >> CISC for example. >> Okay. >> We've met them. We're in email communication with them. Um from one from what I understand from
58:22 regulations from regulators they are very focused on other topics crypto and other things they need bigger markets. Yeah. Bigger markets they still need to regulate. um they don't fully understand the nuances of the pro firm industry. >> Interesting. >> And I think once they bring a regulation would be similar to um a bank regulation. I'll I'll go into detail with this. >> Um when we asked them before that when we requested from them regulation, they were not willing to regulate us just because there's no retail capital in in the game. So what Cisc does and and you know the the regulators the forex regulators do is to protect the
59:10 >> the the traders the retail traders. So >> so they don't see this as trading activity because there's no deposit into a account >> and and how do they view therefore the evaluation fee which could be seen as a deposit if there is instant funding maybe I don't know >> they they they're not they're not seeing it they don't see it that way. So when you see you know CIC they're fine with brokers doing bbook for example as long as they pay. So what they request from from brokers is not bad practices no no slippage no all of that and to have certain amount of money you know in in their accounts in place all the time to be to be you know to be um um liquid and all of that. Um and I think for the prop
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