PD Talk Online - Practical Considerations for Developing ESP Needs Analysis in the EFL Classroom

0:03 so we're really happy to have Kevin brand fona he's currently a professor at univ National and un De Costa Rica where he has taught courses on efl efl teacher education Linguistics and research in efl teaching and learning he holds a master's degree in Applied Linguistics with an emphasis on teaching of English for specific purposes from un National his areas of interest and published works are related to critical applied Linguistics English for specific purposes efl teaching methodology and Costa Rican higher education and our other speaker today is Roger seur seura Adas he's a professor of English as a foreign language at the University na Costa Rica Peron campus he also obtained his master's degree in Applied

0:49 Linguistics with an emphasis on teaching of English for specific purposes from un National he's taught ESP courses to inservice professionals and traine students and he currently works for inport Aras an ESP program at University De Costa Rica his research interests include the use of technology and language education ESP curriculum design and instruction and critical Applied Linguistics so here to speak with us today with the presentation practical considerations for developing ESP needs analysis in the efl efl classroom please help me welcome professors Kevin brand fona and Roger seura Adas with a warm virtual Round of Applause so if you have your cameras on please give them a big thumbs up there welcome

1:38 guys hello everybody thank you Mark for that kind introduction thank you thank you everybody for joining us in this PD talk session that we prepared for you today and we are more than honored to be here sharing with all of you um I heard that we have people from different parts of Costa Rica and different parts of the world everybody welcome and we really hope that you get to to learn a lot from this presentation um to the start maybe Roger can help me out and and present right what we brought for you today we're going to start with a m presentation as Mark mentioned uh the title of our presentation right is practical considerations for developing ESP needs analysis in the efl classroom

2:26 and before we start we would like to know if you can share with us right what you know about ESP in one or two words what is ESP for you maybe you can access m.com and use the following code first of all you have m.com on the screen I don't know you able to see it if not I can write it in the chat m.com and then you access the following code 7624 2468 in one or two words people tell us what is ESP for you let's see we're going to be waiting

3:12 for some responses well some people are giving some answers in the chat if you can you want to give them through DeMent it's also valid we have extra sensorial perception specific glossaries very specific in context good Let's see we have anything else English for specific purposes right skills I've Tau a special English at Medical Equipment F uh at a medical equipment Factory okay good specific needs learner needs skills

4:00 we're going to wait for a few more responses design claries technical vocabulary okay I can see that some of you are relating this to the specificity of language right specific language structures a specific vocabulary ESP is related to that of course learner needs English oriented very good technicism mhm okay great design English oriented learner needs needs needs uhuh needs analysis good if you pay attention to what you've been mentioning so far you've been uh

4:46 referring to the word needs a lot so there we go course design special Focus uhuh it is a special focus of course English for life that one caught my attention English for life that one is powerful um English for work English for work let's see technical vocabulary I guess these ones are enough and and I can see that most of you or or all of you have a notion of what ESP is

5:33 and how it works if you don't have any any notion about it we are here to clarify a few terms right which can be quite useful for you and hopefully you're going to have new takeaways from today's uh PD talk so uh with this this lets us know if you have some background about ESP and most of you do have some background right and hopefully you are going to learn a lot more from it h Roger I guess we can start now with the presentation if you want to sure just give me a second I just want to say uh thank you for uh for joining us today um very happy to be here and um sharing with you this afternoon here in Costa Rica uh and uh

6:20 hopefully we're GNA have a great learning time today so um Kevin I'm going to start sharing now okay thank you Roger you able to see everything on the screen just there we go let us know um looks good for us yes all right good okay thank you so this is the title of the presentation right it's about some practical considerations that we have to to follow when we develop ESP needs analysis in the EF classroom we want to make it as practical as possible so that you can apply it in your classrooms as well and we are we are going to present to you uh an overview

7:07 an agenda or what we will be doing for today's session uh we're going to understand what ESP is how it works you already brought some Notions about it uh we would like to clarify a few terms and and and some issues related to it uh we're going to be explaining what needs analysis is some needs analysis activ ities we're going to try to make them as practical as possible uh we have an application activity so that you see how needs analysis Works in a regular you know in a in a regular ESP classroom right because um sometimes we believe that ESP is something really scientific right that you have to follow a lot of procedures and you do have to follow procedures but you can simplify it as well and then some final considerations

7:55 and then we'll have some some time for comments and and question questions and Q&A session um then let's start by defining es English for specific purposes it stands for English for specific purposes right so and here we have a few definitions of ESP according to hatchin and Waters ESP is an approach to language teaching in in which all decisions as to content and Method are based on the learner's reason for learning okay so why is it right that our Stu that our students want to learn English do they want to learn English because they want to work at a bank

8:42 because they want to work in the tourism sector because they want to study abroad a specific major engineering business right so why is it that our students want to learn English So based on that answer we're going to follow a specific methodology and we're going to prepare specific material for those students that's basically ESB and then belter said that there are and no doubt will be as many types of ESP as there are specific Learners needs and Target communities that Learners wish to thrive in and this is very important right because we have different types of ESP

9:28 courses some courses are going to be related to specific areas in the academic field and some of them are going to be more related to work oriented um demands as as some of you mentioned right occupational demands uh and that's why we have in the next slide uh a diagam that was not the next one a diagram I guess that one that is going to help us explain better you know what ESP is and the different types of ESP that we can find we have English for academic purposes and English for

10:14 occupational purposes when we talk about English for academic purposes we're talking about that type of English that is taught in the Academia right for you to develop academic work for example uh for example if you need to write an essay for a course in your engineering major and you need to know technical vocabulary for that essay okay you should take an English for academic purposes course right related to that specific field if it's engineering if it's business right then uh you will need to learn that specific language in the academic field uh we have different types of

11:00 English for academic purposes courses like English for Science and Technology English for academic medical purposes English for academic legal purposes and English for management finance and economics if you need to get ready for a formal Ora presentation related to business okay you also take an English for academic purposes course that allows you to deliver a good presentation in an academic field related to business on the other hand we have English for occupational purposes this one is very well known in Costa Rica in other latitudes like in the United States and in Europe people get to know a lot about English for academic purposes but in Costa Rica it's mostly English for occupational purposes what is English for occupational

11:45 purposes right we're talking about the type of English that is taught right but in this case it would be more with a vocational uh Purpose with a vocational demand so if we have people that need to work for a contact centers or or call centers we need to teach them a specific vocabulary and structures right that allow them to perform well in their work setting okay that's basically what happens with English for occupational purposes if you need to use English for the tourism sector so the type of English that you will be taught is going to allow you to work in the tourism sector by using appropriate vocabulary

12:32 for that specific setting uh the same for Banking and and and other fields we can find for example two types of English for occupational purposes we have English for professional purposes which is English for medical purposes and English for business purposes of course there are more but these are just examples right when you are a professional in these fields okay so you need to use this type of English then we have English for vocational purposes we have prevocational English and Vocational English in this case you may not be working specifically for this sector but in the future you may want to work in these sector so you get prepared right for these um to work in

13:19 these sectors and you need English to work in there and here we have a comment that says uh Aviation English as as well is global very good we agree on that this classification was given by D and Evans and St John by the way and with these termin with this terminology clear I guess we can move on to to the rest of the presentation right greeings from California thank you very much Cecilia for joining us today uh we have this question for you and we would like you to reflect upon this in

14:05 breakout rooms I don't know if it's possible to send them to break down to breakout rooms now Mark but we have this task this situation I'm going to read read it to them um it's taken from from a book published by an Anthony related to the teaching of English for specific purposes and it says to reflect on ESP in my practice if you were assigned to teach a new ESP course a course related to tourism a course related to Aviation to to any specific field right it started starting in a few months time would you want to be part of the team that investigated the needs of different

14:51 stakeholders established the different learning objectives created a set of materials and methods for using class and decided devide EV valuation procedures or would you prefer to receive the course description and materials after they were created by others run the course in your own way and they make improvements as you felt necessary what reasons do you have for your preference if you suddenly found that the new course was starting in just a few days time will you answer be different why what happens is that normally in ESP courses what when you get to read about it and when you get to to study about it you see that they tell us that we need to carry out needs assessment and write

15:37 a report and all that and we have some questions about it do teachers really have time to do that to carry out a needs analysis if they do great if they don't how can we help them so we would like you to discuss about these in breakout rooms I don't know if we can send them Mark right now but before that I would like to know if there are any questions maybe you can write them in the chat yeah so I'll go ahead and set up those breakout rooms while any questions come in so it's basically discussing this situation in breakout room so that we can continue talking about those practical considerations uh that we plan to develop in this presentation perfect we're all set with the breakout rooms now so um everyone

16:24 what we'll do so you don't have to try to remember everything is we'll have our partner here Katherine share her screen to the breakout room so as soon as you get there you should see this shared for you and we encourage you just like we mentioned in the NCT take advantage of these breakout rooms to meet people that are here and to participate I know some of you maybe can't participate maybe you're driving or something like that but most of you are here you're engaged so please uh make the most of this breakout room Kevin how much time do you think you need about five minutes or I guess five minutes is enough yeah perfect all right everybody so let's do it and we'll see you back here in about five minutes all right so Kevin Roger everyone is back now all right thank you very much see Kevin Okay Kevin is here okay

17:09 Kevin um maybe we can continue with the presentation I was paying attention to some of the answers you were uh you were giv they were quite interesting and I guess it's related to to what comes next in the presentation well in the in most of the answers you were given we Roger and I were visiting some of the Breakout rooms we could notice that you were talking about two types of settings completely different right and the first one was the ideal setting right what is an ideal setting an ideal setting for ESP is one in which a team of course administrators and instructors can work together to create a carefully planned tested and continually revised and updated set of ESP courses that integrate together to

17:55 form an ESP program so that's ideal as a teacher you have a voice in the decisions to be made right you have a voice if you want to implement a specific methodology you have a voice if you want to teach a specific vocabulary you have a voice regarding evaluation assessment and everything right how often does it happen right rarely but it does happen but if it's not that setting right there is another type of setting and we want to call it the opportunistic setting why opportunistic setting right because we don't want to

18:40 see it you know completely negative there is something positive out of it and this type of it is called opportunistic because in this type of setting you do your work in a do where you can do setting okay they give everything to you most of the decisions have already been made so they gave you the objectives they already gave you the book that you're supposed to follow right to teach the course the material the assessment everything right so we said at the beginning right that ESP is needs oriented that we're going to take into account our students needs either academic or professional but in this case they tell you okay this is the book that you have to

19:26 follow okay what happens in this type of setting so if that's the case you have to establish what decisions have already been made okay so what is the specific objective they're giving you okay are your students supposed to learn uh how to take phone calls because it's for a contact center or call center okay if that's already included you can do something about it uh something else that you can do is to observe your learners reactions monitor their prog progress and make adjustments as necessary the fact that it that everything is already given doesn't mean that you canot make changes if there is an extra activity you can

20:11 Implement go ahead and do it if there is extra material you want to use go ahead use that material right as long as you have the permission to do so okay why not you can make adjustments in the assessment right by talking to your uh bosses to your principal why not to do that however you know good Communications good communication strategies uh need to be set and in that case if there is a specific curriculum you have to follow what you can do is to report your students progress improvements right the same for course design if if there's any any change or adaptation you need to make in course

20:57 design it's better to to let the course administrators uh know about it and you can also offer suggestions right as many as you want to if you have the freedom to do so please do it we see out of this difficult situation do what you can do setting we actually see it as an opportunity right to get to improve something that was already done and with this being said Roger I'm going to give the the floor to Roger who's going to be talking to us a little bit about needs analysis all right Kevin thank you thank you very much for uh that um those ideas and you know all this um understanding

21:45 that I'm sure everyone got from uh what ESP is and how we can use it now talking about that ideal in opportunistic uh setting that Kevin was uh talking about just a minute ago um doesn't matter which one it is if it is that perfect setting or if it is just a setting where you have to do something right um both of them require us to do some type of needs analysis uh needs analysis is a key element in ESP and um today I'm going to be talking to you a little bit about what ESP is and most importantly what we want and what we

22:33 want you to get from this talk today is to present some practical um some activities uh some possible ideas that on how you can bring this sometimes very theoretical into your classroom into your practice and that's what we want so first of course what we want to know is what needs analysis is okay so needs analysis or needs assessment right we use both uh both both terms to refer to the same thing um one of the um definitions that we have here says that it is essential for building a comprehensive course including all

23:19 stakeholders um so this is the first one the little one over here so this one I think that refers a lot to the ideal setting where um a group of people are working together to develop uh a course develop a syllabus to develop a curriculum and they are focusing on trying to understand every side of you know the teaching and learning um that needs to happen for these students to learn what they need to learn uh I'm going to jump to the last one because they two I think they two uh these two uh get together in in the sense that they are ideal in this case it says that it's uh needs analysis need analysis are

24:06 key to creating a curriculum adequately that adequately responds to I'm sorry let me everything is on my way ahu to the needs of various stakeholders involved in language teaching including teachers students community members employers and policy makers so uh again this is this this one refers to that ideal setting where we have this group of members of the community of the teaching of the of the institution working together to provide the best possible course to a group of students um now if we focus our attention to the two definitions in the middle um if you are a teacher if you're a professor if you're an instructor um

24:52 and you're trying to understand this in terms of your practice then I guess these two can give you a lot of ideas uh the first one says that nits analysis are the starting point for devising syllabuses courses materials and the kind of teaching and learning that takes place this is by Jordan um so in this case we're taking NS analysis not as the first step in developing a curriculum or developing a course or a syllabus we are using or we're thinking of needs analysis as a way for uh tailoring our teaching and the next one is the basis for lesson

25:38 planning syllabus design material evaluation material evaluation and development instructional design and assessment development so I think everything here in this uh definition uh deals with what we do as teachers in the classroom or before or after but as our practice okay okay so that's NS analysis First Step that we take when um when we want to create a course when we want to make sure that what we're doing in the classroom is um aims at what the students really need there are three main elements to uh carrying out uh nits analysis and then we're adding Kevin and

26:24 I are adding the fourth one here um we when we want to carry out a needs analysis when we want to analyze what the situation is what these group of this group of students needs so we're going to be looking at the needs of course and then that's the that's right there in the name but we're also going to look at the lacks what are these students missing in terms of their language development uh their wants what do they think right they want and the rights what do they need to know about the context about what is going on with the course with their major with the job depends all right um the next slide I

27:11 will show you a little bit more of information so that we can understand right how to break down its analysis into this uh four different categories so now we know that need analysis uh seeks to discover what the students know what they need to learn and why they want to learn according to Hudson and Waters uh so what are the needs or Necessities well it's everything that the learner needs to know about the second language in order to achieve whatever goal they have okay it depends or it doesn't matter if it is academic as Kevin explained uh explained before or if it is a professional goal that they have that lacks what the learner needs and

27:58 does not know about that L2 okay so those gaps that are um between the present student the present level of these students and the level that is required for them to enter this uh University program or to start working at a company doesn't matter their on uh what the learner thinks he or she needs to learn learn about the L2 Learners come into classrooms with a lot of uh preconceived notions of what they need to learn uh and it's very important that we listen to them also because it is a way of um I think a way of

28:45 perfecting right that course or that class and the last element uh it's the rights what the learner should be able to question regarding the establishments and practices in the workplace in the classroom and in the world now how can I conceive a pedagogic needs analysis so let's let's uh forget about ESP as this I don't know weird creature that maybe I don't want to deal with uh while I was visiting one of the groups I'm sorry I don't remember the last name I think it was who was um saying well I don't want to

29:32 take the risk of uh creating or being part of this team or uh writing the uh objectives I think she said I don't have the experience um to design a course I don't want to write those objectives I mean I don't I don't want to I don't want to do that and I understand and I think uh it's the feeling of many of us right when we don't know uh exactly you know how to deal with uh with ESP or needs analysis but we don't have to do that we don't have to go up to designing a course most of us and it happens in most institutions we get the syllabus that is already done okay and sometimes we don't have a chance to um

30:20 to provide information of uh from our experience of you know sometimes we just teach the course but that's okay how can I bring this into my practice how can I use NS analysis for my advantage if I'm not in the ideal situation how can I use needs analysis in this opportunistic ways in order to improve my teaching to improve my learner learning well um pedagogic needs analysis are um they are different types all right deficiency is analysis strategies or learning needs analysis means analysis and they align with the previous uh slide where I was telling you about needs wants and lacks um what do we look uh for when we want to carry

31:08 out a pedagogic needs analysis well first uh why are the Learners taking the course remember that ESP is um learner centered we start with a learner and then we build around the learner so the first question that we need to ask is uh why are they taking this course okay is it because they want to learn about this specific uh topic is it because it's just part of their curriculum or it's part of their major but that's one of the very important questions that we need to ask ourselves and ask them to how do the Learners learn all right so here as most of you I'm sure now we are talking about learning styles and

31:53 multiple intelligences theories and uh all of there different ways in which as humans learn what resources resources are available this is very important and you know as teachers we know that sometimes we have our um we I don't know if you're like me but I I usually imagine imagine my lesson my class before I get to the classroom and I'm imagine that everything goes great right and then everything is working and then when I get there something happens right all right the projector is not working uh there's no internet uh the students uh didn't do their homework so there are many things um that can go wrong and

32:40 that need to be taken into consideration in this case what resour resources do I have and what resour resources do my students have and very important the last one is who are the Learners who are they okay um so it's very important that we ask all of this in order to create pedagogic NS analysis now getting into types of n analysis there are so many types in this case I have this uh um image here that I think um will help you see that there are many many ways in in which you can do NS analysis first we have Target situation analysis

33:27 so where do my students need to get so I'm going to carry out some type of needs analysis so that I discover what is that Target situation what is that Target level what is that um goal where or um yes level where the students need to get strategy or learning needs analysis so that has to do a lot with uh the process how teaching and learning will be shaped um present situation analysis so I need to carry out a needs analysis to know the present level of the students uh how much they know about what they need to know means analysis so this is related to uh I would say to the uh resources

34:13 that we have the environment where we're going to be teaching um now because ESP can take many different shapes as um one of the slide said before when Kevin was explaining about ESP there's so many different types of ESP uh uh for example I taught it's not always in the classroom that's what I I want you to get it's not always in the classroom it could be it could happen in a uh business a bank right if you're teaching uh English for Banking and then you have to come to the bank and teach that course right after the the employees finish uh their work right or uh in my case once I taught a course at a at a warehouse and it was it's not you know that's not the ideal situation but

35:00 that's why we need to analyze that the means the environment where we're going to be teaching the course register analysis has to do with the vocabulary and grammar that they need to U manage that they need to know in order to perform uh the deficiency analysis so that in that case we're going back to the to the main uh points of the needs analysis that has to do with their lacks okay what they need to know in order to perform and they don't have discourse analysis that deals with um discour with conversation with using the language in conversation and genre analysis that focuses on um the type of text um that is being

35:46 used so now understanding this I want to come here and I want to show you okay so they different I'm I didn't we didn't uh add all of the types here I think we chose uh the ones that could be more useful in the teaching practice and uh we added here a conceptual question and an needs analysis sample question so this question here might be the one that you could be asking yourself or your students so in the Target situation analysis we have what's the desired performance of the Learner in the Target context so a question that you can ask is something like this what does the learner need to do with the language at the workplace okay so okay my uh to hire

36:32 a person I need this person to be able to answer the phone right and be able to understand people and deal with uh I don't know deal dealing with complaints for example so okay that's something that they need to learn and that is the target situation that is the target goal um present situation analysis what's the present performance of the learner and we can ask something like this what can can the learner do with the language now all right so we want to know okay let's do a type of diagnostic activity so that I can see and I give the students a u okay someone complaining how do you deal how do you deal with this situation and then we see if if they are

37:19 performing at the ideal level or if they need to learn something strategy uh strategy analysis and learning needs analysis so we ask what strategies does the learner use to learn and one of the questions that we could ask is how does a learner learn best and finally the deficiency analysis what performance aspects does a learner lack and the question that we could ask is what is the learner missing to perform at the expected level so that we can add there those missing pieces right as we teach the course now how these are this is something that um we analyze and then we said okay now

38:06 we know we I guess you know Kevin and I have had uh some experience in in teaching English so we were like thinking H what activities can be uh part of a lesson that are part of teaching and learning English and that can also work at SS analysis how do I get information from my students and um and still not take time out of my lesson and have them do some type of activity so that I learn about any right of the different uh situations if it's uh what where they need to get where they need what they're lacking so we came up with uh we found

38:53 this information and we said okay I think this is something that everyone can do in their in their uh in their lessons and that can also be used as needs analysis so how can I use the different types of analysis in my teaching questionnaires okay so very easy we all know right questioners work because we can have students asking each other questions it could be a type of interview uh so you can tailor this questionnaire so that you can gather the information that you really need from the students okay so it could be something in a written form it could be uh as a um speaking activity right so you can become or be as creative as you

39:38 want right and thinking about the level of the students so that you can create some type of communicative experience where the students are talking using English but they're also giving you information about for example all right how do you what is the best way for you to learn English or how do you or do you like movies do you so many different questions that we could ask another one that I think it's a very traditional activity and that also right can be used as a uh an instrument to collect information is find someone who um this classic can be a great Ally to collect data from the Learners ask questions based on target purpose for

40:24 example okay so find someone who needs to practice speaking find someone who uh that needs to learn more vocabulary about Aviation I don't know so that way you can start getting information from the students and what their needs are ranking I really uh never thought about this one until we got this information and I think it's a it could be something very useful especially if you have if you're teaching a course for the first time and you you don't know the materials and you don't have experience with it uh you can uh you may find yourself teaching a very specific course and you like experience in the field you can work with cards containing

41:09 for example language functions greeting uh greeting politely disagreeing negotiating requesting information whatever and ask the Learners to rank them in order of importance for them to perform okay so this one I think connects with the ones okay all right I need to um I'm going to be working at this hotel um in the front desk so I think I really need to learn how to uh greet all right so that's my first option once you have that information you can organize right the uh the way that you're going to teach the course what the there the the contents how you're going to manage the contents in terms of what's

41:55 most important and what uh what is not what requires more time from your teaching and which one does not okay so I think that's a very very good way of collecting information from the ones writing okay I think in uh most uh communicative courses we include some type of writing or if it's an integrated course we're doing writing so why not right set up a writing task so that students can feel more comfortable be open and honest and talk about the strengths their weaknesses the materials that they like the best ways for them to learn again you're collecting lots of information so that you can make decisions and looking at the

42:43 materials sometimes we're just given a book right and we're given a material to use uh how many times have you thought that maybe you can start a class uh looking at the material with your students and looking at the different units the different uh grammar contents the different vocabulary and then trying to um decide if you know if the order of the units and the Order of the grammar points or whatever it is uh is what the students really need because sometimes it happens that you know there's a very important grammar topic that you have to cover but well the students you didn't know that the students didn't learn learn this the previous course and then it's the

43:29 last topic that you have in your semester and then you're running to finish right and then you say I wish I had known this before so I would have started with this topic and taking more time at the beginning so maybe I look by looking at the materials you can make some decisions get some information from the students what they want uh what they think uh requires more time time and that way you're carrying out a needs analysis and and in this in this types of needs analysis you can really manage right make changes you can and then you're not like taking time out of the class to do something different you're you're doing your job actually you're

44:15 doing going beyond your job because it's the easiest thing it would be just to take the book run with it and not care about your STS but because ESP it's as I said before learner centered and itss Analysis is key to providing that so why not just an idea for you to consider okay so uh I hope that now you have ESP and needs analysis clear right because we are going to be asking you to work a little bit and uh try to put into practice all these uh all this um different and activities and strategies that we talked about so Kevin I think that you can take

45:03 over now uh thank you so much Roger after having heard Roger talk about all these strategies and activities we have an activity now I don't know if we can start presenting it presenting it Roger um you let me know through the chat we're uh sharing some material with you um that will be useful for the activity

45:51 okay okay there we go I cannot see the material yet there there we go thank you Roger so now it's time to work unveiling linguistic needs a comprehensive NS analysis in the ESL classroom we have an activity in this activity what we're going to be doing is kind of a case study right we're going to be analyzing a case and this is the objective that we have it says that the primary objective is to identify the linguistic needs lacks and wants and possible rights of the students to inform effective curriculum design and teaching

46:37 strategies in an ESP course in tourism so the course we're going to be dealing with is tourism in this case so what needs lacks and once and possible rights we need to determine in this in this specific course right and this is the situation the background that we need for it we're going to be working on this in breakout rooms it says you are an ESP instructor dealing with a diverse group of intermediate level Learners preparing to work in the tourism industry you were assigned the course with only one week of preparation you don't have any information of previous needs analysis and have little or no or no experience teaching ESP courses the teaching environment is a Language Institute that

47:23 aims to enhance the students's English language proficiency For Occupational purposes so uh maybe we can continue with the next part in here we gives you we give you a list of methods that you could use for your needs analysis because you're supposed to conduct an informal needs analysis because this is something practical right this is something practical so you got to think of which strategy is best to collect information about students need LS and wants right and what possible questions you can create right to determine or to identify those needs

48:09 lacks and wants so um in the next part it says choose the instruments that you would like to use to assess the needs of the students you may choose several instruments from the list or make up new ones in the in here we we give you a list of Poss methods Roger explained others right uh that you could use and the different techniques if you want to do it through a game like find someone who go ahead and do it right but we can have interviews observations analysis or written work right pre feedback session diagnostic testing right we just want you to think on how to carry out needs analysis informally in a way that we don't have

48:55 to write a report or anything just think about your students needs right what do they need English for right what are their rights what why do they need it okay once you have chosen the ideal instruments for your needs analysis come up with some sample questions observable points things that you can observe categories etc for each of the methods so we're going to ask you to where working breakout rooms one more time um how much can can we give them for this Mark would it be enough if we gave them 10 minutes I think so yeah I think that's fine yeah I guess we can

49:42 give you 10 minutes all right we have a question over there it says is it recommendable to carry out a needs analysis at at Kinder kindergarten level that's a great question thank you very much for asking well nor we teach ESP for either academic or professional purposes so at this level you know when we are talking about kids at the kindergarten level well it it's not very common to teach ESP in this kind of of contexts however you want to teach them about something specific a specific vocabulary okay why not why not to try with simple activities with simple games right yeah Kevin I think that it's a asking for nits analysis nits analysis I would say can be carried out at

50:29 any yes because you're using that to gather information about what the students need want or are lacking so I would say that yes any any context any type of um of opportunity that you have and with any type of students you can just go ahead and ask your students or just observe your students and see what they need all right thank you very very much so we can send you to the breakout rooms now talk about the possible remember to talk about possible data collection methods ways to collect information right and possible questions that you can ask for this specific course for tourism so here we

51:15 go all right Kevin so we're all back now that was about 12 minutes Believe It or Not time flies viral context okay yes 12 minutes was enough welcome back everybody we were paying attention to some of the discussions the answers you were actually you were giv were actually really interesting really really interesting insights and and ideas that we would like you to share so I don't know if there are any any volun volunteers any any participants who would like to to share some of the insights I guess we can learn from from each other that's the idea of having PD talks here that we get to learn from from each other all the time so Kevin I was telling Roger that the the participants are able to open their mics

52:00 so if anyone at this time does want to share what you were discussing in your room you can just open your mic and and go right ahead hello Pablo hi um yeah we were discussing our group with Jonathan that uh it is a really complicated task because uh number one you only have one week and then we're talking about like English for tourism that is like a very broad area in and uh we were given the example that for example we can have a uh because normally when you think about English for tourism like tour guide is the first profession that comes to mind but then you can have a airport C driver or you know a ticket agent or whatever you know like very very different like professions within the area of Tourism

52:47 right so it would be very difficult very challenging like to tailor a course for everybody you can do observations like in the first day of class perform some kind of like interviews or some kind of activity like get to know each other and ask them what they do in their jobs um but it's going to be a challenge to uh you know have some general English for tourism thing and then tailor a little bit for what everybody needs because even if you do some written analysis like if you have to make some kind of report you have to report somebody the the the report that a I don't know counter agent is going to ride is going to be very different from tour guide or something like that so it's always going to be very challenging when you have ESP

53:34 so General so broad like tourism with a group say 15 people not everybody's GNA have the same needs okay thank you Pablo thank you very much yeah if it were a group for tourist guides only that would be perfect but we don't know that's a real that we don't know if that's a reality that we're going to encounter right a one-on-one ESP that would be the ideal setting yeah okay good thank you so much uh we have uh Dr I don't know the pronunciation I guess it's Muhammad right and then Norma Flores hello yeah hello um me and Mel uh in our room we were talking about the um priorities how can we set priorities for

54:21 the course um we we were talking about three main things uh the first thing was the written response we we would ask them to uh write the the most um challenges that they face while they are doing their jobs uh whether they might use uh written English more or spoken English um depending on the uh response we are going to decide whether we um to focus more on uh the written engl or the spoken English uh also uh for the um um the the purpose uh if they are um

55:07 setting peers uh peer discussion we are going to uh collect some ideas uh what are the the things that they are um using more if they are for example saying that we are facing some challenges while we are speaking to tourists um um everyday English differs from the formal English the academic English so this might hinder understanding sometimes and might uh cause miscommunication um things might have like double meaning or it might be like offensive in other cultures uh so we would focus more on the register so um this this kind of of English or these

55:54 kind of lexes um um is important to teach more so it focus more while designing the course uh the third thing was the uh Informer uh interviews and we were talking about the uh [Music] um let's say um points to to consider while um we are um dealing with the um gender and the age of uh like at the the tour guides whether they are uh working at the front office whether they are setting the the program for the tourist when they come to visit their countries um also the experience how long have

56:39 they been have they have they been doing the job so this U might give like if they are experienced or they are so this will help us as curriculum designers or developers to uh put things for for the the Learners thank you thank you very much you came up with a lot of questions in in in such a short period of time thank you and I could notice that most of your questions were related to the language functions and lexicon and everything they needed you you were really focused on on on the specificity right required thank you so much uh then we have

57:24 Norma yeah in my we were discussing about first the techniques that we would use to collect data in order to sign the need analysis and we came up with a survey that Lina was suggesting would be to uh an online survey so that the students respond to the questionnaire before they come to classes and then we also said that we need to do a an in-depth interview with the students in order to find out for specificities because maybe we as teachers designed the question in such a form that uh we are asking only about the linguistic elements but maybe there are some other elements that they may include that's why we need the interview order to gather more information about the type of jobs that I do the RS the previous experiences uh the language Etc and then

58:12 also do some direct uh observation in order to see what type of exchanges students have in their jobs and in order to determine also some of the content that we can includ in the first um in the the question that we would ask of course we would ask about the jobs and What needs they have sorry I I live near yor Street and right now people are leaving the job so there conference um also about their background information uh I've had experience of teaching an speakers for touris and people working in hotels and some of them didn't know how to read and write in Spanish so it was complicated that's why I think it is important to also ask and what is the level of competence in there first language or for them it was a

58:58 second and then they are learning so we need to take that into time in order to see how we are going to approach the teaching and the type of techniques that we're going to use the techniques and T that we going to use in uh and to develop the language in such a way that they uh learn what they need for their jobs uh but of as you said uh well as I mentioned before uh tourism is such a wide range of offers such a wide range of jobs that it would be almost impossible to um enclose it enough for our course that's why we need to know what first of all who they are what they do and then from that Lear the type of Lang that they need and also maybe we're talking about some role plays in order to see the

59:43 skills that they need to improve or enhance the most all other things Norma thank you very much you also came up with a lot of strategies and something that caught my attention about what you said well actually to things well everything was great but two things caught my attention about what you said first of all that you had this situation with students who didn't know how to how to write in Spanish not even in Spanish right which was their native language that makes it more complicated and of course we have to take language they were native speakers of all right langu spoken in the area of chapas and then Spanish was well is official language so they needed for their jobs but then they also were learning English because need it in order to deal with the of course yeah but in any case that

1:00:32 makes it more complicated right so we need we really need to get to know the background of our students when we do ESP actually in any kind of of teaching right but especially in ESP if we want them to perform well professionally or academically thank you so much um and another thing is that uh some of the Strate right that you suggested they also had a pedagogical purpose and that was the idea right for example you have role plays or interviews they are going to be practicing their English right and at the same time they are going to be giv us information and that was exactly what we wanted for today right that you could uh take that as a takeaway right that

1:01:17 you could actually Implement needs analysis in in the different activities you do in the classroom Elena thank you Norma is Elena there I yes I'm here but I'm sorry I didn't I didn't raise my hand but um I really appreciate this presentation because I know it can help me I work in a primary school maybe my students are a low level but it give me um ideas to how to break the eyes uh when you find like student that don't want to involucrate and in they don't don't have interest in

1:02:03 working so maybe it would be like a good good topic to involucrate your students to to start working and I know what would be their expectation I love it thank you so much we appreciate it Elena and that was idea that you get to apply what we've been uh discussing and we have Kya retana hello hello hello Kya go ahead and share with us can you hear me yes yes I can listen to you okay there you go kathia would you mind sharing with us working yeah my camera is working hello K I know you I was so excited when I listen about

1:02:51 this T the talk and and I thought it was you guys here and Roger I really appreciate you sharing all of this information thank you so much I love these TD talks I listen to them all the time and thank you I just wanted to thank you and say hello it was very nice seeing you here nice see you to see you here what a nice surprise ah yes yes very interesting topic and um I know you have the the knowledge and you have H everything you need to be here to share your knowledge with us thank you Kya thank you Kya we appreciate it it was very nice to see you the best for you guys same there thank you so um Roger I guess we can go

1:03:40 ahead and and continue with the final considerations right the conclusions yes uh Kevin thank you thank you everyone for uh for sharing so much uh one key uh element of ESP is that uh we learn from each other right so sometimes we um well we are the teachers and we know about the language but um most of the time our students are the ones who know the area the field of study so we are always getting Knowledge from each other and I think that through this activity we did that uh you mentioned lots of activities is that we um we could use

1:04:28 also you um talked about some limitations that we could have and that's all part of uh carrying out a need analysis thank you very much now I'm going to be brief um and just mention some of the final considerations I think that we have talked about them through this presentation and then uh you uh also provided some EX EXT ra information um in the activities but here we go so first uh what do we do with uh once we have the results and then we have to analyze the information that we got through that NS analysis when we complet it um it's important to look at patterns and trends that emerge in that through that

1:05:16 dat analysis um that's going to provide a lot of uh insights into the student linguistic needs slacks and wants so we want to see what patterns uh we can identify and then try to cover those areas or strengthen those areas that show there um so usually these areas could be related to uh vocabulary that they need to learn uh gram grammatical structures that they need to manage and mostly communication skills and sometimes cultural integration that's also important to consider um now what considerations uh are there in terms of instruction well of course

1:06:03 once we get the information we want to uh think about how we're going to adapt the curriculum how we're going to um manage the uh elements that or these patterns that we discovered or these trends that we discover how are we going to put them into the uh the curriculum into our class classes how we're going to manage to include this in our teaching uh differentiated instruction if we need to make sure that we are going to cover certain areas um differently cultural relevance is also important what you know what's important uh it's important to know what cultural elements uh need to be learned and um

1:06:51 and now that we're talking about tourism that's it's key in terms of uh students performing in different areas and continuous assessment and feedback it's it's also important to learn how students are um are reacting to the changes that we're making and getting feedback from them and giving them feedback from what we can see in their performance and I think that that's it this is the list of references that we uh included in this presentation and we want to thank you for joining us this uh this afternoon and there uh we have you

1:07:37 have our emails in case you want to contact us with questions comments suggestions you're very welcome all right well we are at the end of time it's it's already 4:35 but I bet we have time for a question or too um if you're up for it Kevin and Roger um since I'm already speaking I'm going to monopol monopolize let's say the opportunity and ask um from your experience have either of you had the opportunity to develop um a course where you were in that ideal scenario where you had a say in what was going on and you were involved in those initial planning phases I'm just curious if you had and what was the context that

1:08:24 you were working in well uh yes I have um very interest uh a very interesting um time was I didn't know anything about ESP and I was doing ESP that was many many years ago when I had to um pretty much uh build a course for customer service in a very specific area in in in sales and uh well that was that was was very difficult because it was my first experience but then um after learning and uh about ESP and getting you know knowledge of it uh then we had I had to um the opportunity to create um a

1:09:13 syllabus for uh tourism students and um the idea was to prepare them for uh front desk for um for the needs that they could have in different hotels in the area here in peton so I could tailor that course to uh for those students to try to perform in these hotels of course it was still not specific as you know working with only one hotel but that course was the the approximation to that right so that was my experience in in that sense in my case I had a chance to create a a course for banking I created it myself I created the material the objectives I selected which topics were

1:09:59 going to be considered for the course and everything was based on the analysis I also did the analysis myself it was a a quite formal analysis right uh but it gave me good results the thing is that besides doing all the for besides following all the formal procedures you also need to be opportunistic about ESP right because uh as we said earlier this is something time consuming right and since it's time consuming we thought about you know making it practical for everybody and incorporating those practices in our teaching practice too opportunistic is a key word here yes I think that's a such a great word for teachers in any context I wonder if anyone else has a comment or question

1:10:45 before we give some final announcements and let Roger and Kevin enjoy their afternoon evening any other comments or questions well there may be someone in the process of formulating their question but I will just uh take a moment here just to say thank you to both Kevin and Roger for the time and ideas they shared with us I really appreciate it Kevin it was great reconnecting with you Roger it was nice meeting you for the first time and uh I've learned a lot from this so I want everyone if you've got your cameras on and if you don't and you're in the chat at least give a thumbs up give an emoji wa your hands to say thank you to our speakers today uh I really appreciate it guys thank you so much