Transcrição completa de “Zaha Hadid | وراء الوجوه - مقابلة مع زهاء حديد”. Clique em uma marcação de tempo para abrir o vídeo naquele momento. Precisa de outro vídeo? Use o gerador de transcrição do YouTube.
0:03 Hello. For hello
0:56 Arabia. Cincinnati Ohio New York, Tokyo, Munich, Singapura,
1:42 Roma Barcelona Harvard Columbia Hamburg Vienna for
2:38 what I say. Is it a twist of fate or a stroke of luck? Well, actually it's it's neither. I had to say I think it's really just hard work, you know. I think that uh of course in your life you you there are some coincidences. You know, you may uh meet the right people, the right place at the right time or you do the right thing, but which is to do with choice. But I think in art in particular, I think it's really hard work and it requires tremendous diligence and and and perseverance to survive in this profession like many other profession if you want to do well. And I think that um I would say you know
3:26 being from outside the kind of the not being a foreigner living in England being you know Iraqi and also being a woman doesn't necessarily always make it more difficult but it makes it much tougher because there is no stereotype uh involved. So you know I think it it is it's hard work. I think you must also give some credit. So let's say a small coefficient amount of one you know to luck. I don't I don't I don't think well I believe in luck but I not in my case. I I don't think it was uh it was luck. I mean you know it was lucky I won a competition but it was because I work extremely hard. Um you know it was lucky I met certain people who uh I I think were fantastic teachers but that was a choice. It wasn't that I kind of stumbled on them. Um yeah of
4:11 course I mean you know I I can't you know I come from a Polish background. I can't say you know um it's not luck in the sense that I scraped the streets and you know begged and everything but um it really is hard work. I mean I wasn't helped out here you know I mean my family helped me for a while but I I really for a long time worked extremely hard. Is that do you think today you have reached the peak of your career? Um I don't think so. I I don't think so. No, I I think that um there is a lot more to be gained, you know. Well, I mean, I think, you know, I mean, I can't say I have achieved what I think is the the the most perfect project yet, you know. I think that uh
4:58 my goal is to ultimately achieve what I call the theoretical project, which is something we all kind of dreamt about or thought about and is yet to be achieved. I think that is my goal. But I think too that your projects, all of them are dreams. And you make us live in a dream. I don't see them as dreams. They're not dreams as far I'm concerned for you. No, I mean they're not. I think it's a it's like you know going to a scientist and saying to do research in a particular field to achieve the perfect vaccine is a dream or the perfect uh scientific achievement. It's not a dream. It's it's really something which will improve the way we live. Do you think you're forecasting or
5:45 you're projecting the future in a sense? Yeah. I mean, I think that I think the that research into architecture, the intention is to eventually have an impact on the way we we live and the cities and countries, the way architecture change the way we perceive of culture, of life through a digital technology. No, not through technology, but through a spatial experience. My introduction was so brief if I can say uh because you know gathering all the information all the data about you is something quite impossible. So throughout the interviews throughout the discussion tonight the viewers going to understand and going to discover you more and more and they understand more what we'll be dwelling upon what we'll
6:31 be talking about. How do you explain the secrets or the reasons of your success? What were the keys to your success? I see I I don't see myself as very successful. That's how you perceive you. Um I mean I think it is I think I came into this profession. I mean I don't know whether people you know have talent or they gain talent. I I really don't know. I I think you do obviously have some which is you know which suits your personality to the profession you choose. Um but I think it requires a lot of work to make it much more substantial. Um I would say you know I think that I came into the scene um from the I if I
7:16 look at from the outside uh with a with a new perspective on the way we should do architecture and I think the way we should present it the way we should should be done the way it might be perceived by others. So I think it gave a kind of fresher look and it gave hope to people who thought that everything has been achieved everything has been done. Uh and so I think that is and the fact that I think I was also uh do not fit the kind of the white male European stereotype or American uh you know I think that also added to the intrigue or to the people being curious but I think it's the three things the curiosity about me as a woman as a foreigner and also the work did not at the time 20
8:03 years ago did not look like anything else which was around well maybe some other people I mean I'm not alone in doing this work. Um so I think that could be the reason and also it was developed because some people do some something and then it disappears and I think the development of the work and the perseverance and winning many public projects or can many of them did not happen at the beginning that added to to their story. Do you owe anything to anybody? Um yeah I think I owe a lot to quite a few people. I mean I I owed a great deal to my family. Both my parents were incredibly supportive and and my mother died in ' 83 but my father was always they both were extremely supportive. I mean I never in my entire life thought I
8:52 will not have a career. There was never a moment in my childhood or my teens or personally that I ever thought I will not pursue a career. So my success is not necessarily a great surprise to me between brackets. Uh it wasn't a surprise because I I mean you know I always thought I will that I think that I could excel in something. I wasn't I mean I always wanted to do architecture but I could have done something else but I mean I was I couldn't guarantee it. I didn't inherit a business you know. It was just I always knew that if you put me on to it and you work hard, you eventually get there. It might be a long road. Yeah. It seems you were so attached to your
9:37 father, late Muhammad Hadid. Uh would you like to talk about this aspect of your life personally? I would like you to um mean I was really I I was very close to both my parents, you know, and um uh my father was just a very special person. I mean, you know, he was very liberal. uh very progressive. I mean he was not necessarily unconservative in certain aspects but I think that he was or traditional but um he really I think both my parents and particularly my father gave me tremendous courage. I really think that um people can achieve more of if they are confident uh even if you're not not say that great if you are if you think you can get past
10:22 certain things I think you will achieve more and I think that parents in terms of I really think the key to everything is education you know uh and I think uh education not only in the terms of bookworm education but how much you are um you observe through life how much you see through you learn through people whether you travel what you observe I really think it's the key to everything you know and um and that gives you confidence to to tackle the next thing and of course you know parents give you love and affection and and all that adds up to you know to be less messed up than you can um and also I mean I think they supported through my education abroad I I you know wanted to go here I wanted to
11:08 go there um you know I wasn't I didn't always I mean I wanted to do a show but not I wasn't sure and I think they supported me great deal I mean I I came was coming to London I mean I I remember being 16 years old and the whole family was discussing in sulfur uh and you know and your future my future because I wanted to do architecture and we thought I was crazy and so my brother decided I should become my brothers teased me a lot which you know made me maybe tougher uh so they said you we have an idea for you. You could go and study architecture in Russia because I wasn't sure where to go. And then they said, we have a better idea. You can become Iraq's first women astronaut. So, of course, I mean, I was I didn't have much sense of humor as a kid. I
11:54 mean, 15 years old, 16. Good. When you say, you know, it's an idea. It's a suggestion in order. Sometimes traditions, you know. No, no, nobody thereated. They My brothers, you know, I lived in London. They never interfered in my life, you know. I mean I think that the family all you know had enough kind of confidence in me that I would behave myself behave well not not do silly things and you know and I of course that's also an incredible burden because then you have to behave yourself all the time uh so and I was always really quite wild as a child I mean I wasn't kind of a conformist let's say uh which you know of course through that I paid a high price because if you don't you know people don't want don't don't want people to behave in in a different way
12:40 and people like to be to behave the same way. You know, it's kind of military academy sensibility that you behave well in certain ways. You are a nice girl especially. I mean, you know, you you don't you you obey orders, you don't say funny things, you you know, but you know, sometimes it's good to do some silly things. No, no, I I agree. I mean, I think that uh well, it's very I always did what I wanted, you know. I mean, it used to freak everybody out. Uh, because I would dress funny. I would do funny things. I mean, nobody could believe the things I did. Um, and but nobody I mean, my brothers never really ever ever told me I shouldn't do that. You know, they might thought might think so. They
13:26 might have thought, but they never they they never entered my life. So, I'm very grateful to them because they gave me tremendous freedom to pursue what I wanted. I mean I I think that they were all maybe intrigued and mystified what I want to do and they let me run to see where it will take me. Let's stop for a break and then we'll get back to you on future television or behind faces.
14:14 Back to Zahed behind faces. This is the title of the show, Zahed. You have gained international attention with your controversial winning entry for the Hong Kong Peak competition in 1983. Still, the project only exists on papers. Why having chosen to push the boundaries of architecture and urban design? Was it to be different? Was it to impress the judges either in a positive or negative way or was it to create a polyc? Um well I really I mean I I think that to go back to the people who I you ask me were there there's anybody I'm grateful for. I think that maybe grateful is not the right word but
14:59 I went to a very interesting school of architecture. I mean I would say they achi um was a brilliant place because in one place it was like a magnet truck could do it interesting students interesting teachers. So there was a so many different teachers which you could not even duplicate their interests and it was run by a very very interesting and important chairman Alan Bosski and I attribute a great deal to him because he was someone who also um kind of supported you I gave you a plateau to experiment when I was a student he allowed his
15:45 teachers to experiment with us as students and when I was a teacher he allowed me to experiment with my students. So but also to experiment with your own work and I think that was really critical to the discourse of architecture. So in my fourth year up to my fourth year I could I mean I was interested in architecture but I wasn't completely committed. I mean I was committed but not you know I was still having a good fun time sort of thing. Um, in my fourth year it became I really became very excited about architecture and I began to realize actually I could be you know relatively good at it if I worked hard on it and that it could make a difference because there are of course there are other you know moments in
16:33 architecture which I think that there people have achieved some interesting stuff and therefore you know it's possible to do really great things. And and so um so when I began to realize that you really can actually make a difference that required to be not just me and my teachers which is Ram Kolhas and Ilis and Galis we there as gave us some kind of really things to do and I through that thought that um that the history of modernism was aborted uh I mean the work of modernism was aborted and therefore to make the next leap leap, one had to do much more work or interpret it differently uh to make the next leap.
17:18 And therefore I think that that was a seminal moment in my four and fifth year which is in 75 and 77 then that it became clear that not to that to challenge that you need to reinvestigate drawing projections technology presentation spatial experiences and all that became what I call theical project. But you really did challenge you know the convention. So I think that was that was it the challenging the conventions and therefore that meant you know all typologies were thrown out of the window. Uh every technique which was available was thrown out of the window that everything had to be re-examined and that was an incredibly exciting moment although very difficult because
18:05 it meant you had to reinvent the next thing but it was a complete jeopardy. You're implementing something very new. Uh well I mean I think there was a tradition of modernity in the in the 20s and the 30s and the 40s and later in the 50s and the 60s which was by the 80s and 70s abandoned. There was already tradition of modernity uh which was extremely buoyant at the time. That's how you became the queen of deconstructionism. Uh well I mean the construction was really a word which somebody kind of you know sitting somewhere hash it up but it became I mean I think there was a obviously the idea of well it was it was a thesis about how to implement modern buildings and duct position was one of them which
18:51 means that in the early 20th century they that the only way forward was to obliterate context and therefore we say we we we take on the context and ductose new buildings over existing context. Uh superimposition uh therefore the idea of collision uh and therefore the idea of deconstructivism or deconstruction. uh and also also beginning to look at wiser presentation which was no longer because I think that presentation was in a way the key to this challenge in a sense that before through mass production and uh an end industrial kind of uh shift the idea that you do
19:37 repetition that everything looks the same. repeat everything. The generic project meaning whatever you build you build exactly the same and therefore this new realm was about customization and it was about specialization and al obviously because of the interest in threedimensional specialtity it implied that you don't extrude the plan. the plan. You don't just pull up the plan and you have a reparative floor that each floor could be very different and therefore the idea of landscape and collision and all these things came into play. You're completely dissociated uh from the Islamic oriental traditional architecture. Uh it's true, but how do you perceive this architecture? Um I
20:24 don't I'm not totally associated because I think that a lot of modernist artists were very influenced by Islamic architecture and I'm definitely not not consciously influenced by calligraphy and writing but definitely it's the idea of the fluidity of the line is there in the sketches. So there is an influence but not through flororic Islamic architecture more about organization consequently to to what you just said. How do you perceive you know this floric traditional Islamic architecture? I mean I think that you I I really believe that reflect the way we live at this moment. I don't think that we live in the you know in the same way we lived 2 3,000 years ago. So but you know this is our heritage.
21:10 Yeah. But I think heritage is about change. I don't think we should be kind of become a kind of some sort of frozen edifice. But we are for the preservation of of of such heritage. No. Uh only when necessary. Only when? Only when necessary. Only if it's a function. Uh I mean I like some of it. I don't like all of it. I don't I don't think we should do it exactly the same way again. Um I think you can do if you think about organization you can say look at courtyard housing how they one can build housing like that but I don't think you can build skyscrapers with some artist on them and call it Islamic but many big Arab architects you know were inspired by by such legacy
21:57 I think they're horrible I I I think they're dreadful how do you find the work of the Iraqi Rafat Jazzi for instance I think he was very talented guy but I I don't like the work which he did later in time. I think his early work was interesting when it was kind of a very modest scale. Um I I really I don't I don't believe in the folklore aspect of the Islamic architecture. What about the Jordanian Rasim Badran? I don't like this work. What about the Egyptian Hassan Fat? It's irrelevant because it's mud houses. I mean, do you want you don't want to live in one of those houses? What about the Lebanese Salam? Um I as I also like I mean I like it when it's done in a different kind of way. I I don't believe that you can actually make
22:42 enormous buildings with some I I think it works only is done as intens of organization then it works. So from what you just said I can understand or I understand that you don't back up the people or those who try to preserve the heritage. No I think the old architecture, the old houses, the old buildings. No, I I don't mind. I'm not against preservation. Only would it serve a purpose. I don't think you preserve it just because it's old. Not everything old is good. But it's a culture by itself. Well, um I don't know. I don't I don't really I don't think that um they are not only souvenirs or memories. I think in some cases it's souvenirs. That's what you're saying. It's not it should this should not be this should not be it. This should not
23:28 be it. I mean I'm sorry. It means that their Islamic world could never progress because they believe in their heritage. I mean how are they going to move on? We can combine both. I don't think modernism and heritage you can't only in terms of organization you can you see I I think there's a big difference if you if you say we learn through heritage the way we in organized citadels or the city uh and we live in that way I think it works. But I think that her is not about decoration. But Zahed we know very well you know that your first projects and even you know some of the recent one uh are not applicable cannot be constructed. No of course they can all of them.
24:13 Absolutely. Absolutely. every time when a product is done with the top engineers in the world and there's there's no reason it's only uh you know bloody mindedness or stubbornness or or or economy maybe or psychological they cannot be achieved through that but but they're not all functional they're all functional let's say for instance you know the Alvitra project which was supposed to be a fire fire station it was never only a fire station it became a museum afterwards yeah but not because it didn't work as a fire station because they it was not functional to be a fire station. No, that's not true. It was always function of the fire station. First of all, no, it's a fact. It was built as a fire station run by the by the uh people who run work in Vitra. Vra needed a fire station which was very equipped as a
25:00 fire station. Now, it had to have professional firemen. It had to have, you know, professional cars. This was always built as a fire station run by the factory workers and it's oper operate as a function space meaning it could also operate as a museum as exhibition lectures so on was never seen only as a fire station and and for reasons not not because it doesn't function uh they decide to combine their fire station with the B fire station. So it's not and because it is a very popular building they decided to make it into a museum. because it's nonfunction. How do you explain the fact that you know the first project you had constructed was in 1993 15 years after you started? It was unfortunate.
25:46 So this is luck. No, it's not luck. It's uh it's to do with bigotry. It's nothing to do with luck. It's to do with people not not wanting to accept the fact it is possible. I know they do. Well, yeah. I mean, I I haven't changed my work. Mhm. So why why why is it was it not possible 15 as possible now? No. Because I've become easier. From what we see, we can notice that you look more for aesthetics rather than for functionality. No, that's not true. That's not true. No. You're coming from a wealthy family. Could we say that your financial status helped you in your career? I don't come from a wealthy family. Let me continue, please. Since you're
26:33 fully dedicated to what you like, since you're fully dedicated to your passion, disregarding what others want. It's what you want actually, you know, that is produced. Whereas what other wants doesn't matter to you. You don't have financial worries. Otherwise, you know, we can say that your principle in life is art for art and not art for money. No, I think you're wrong on all counts. Mhm. Uh first I don't come from a wealthy family. My family was wealthy, you know, a long time ago, not when I came to England when we were nationalized. So I don't come from a wealthy family. My father never educated us as wealthy kids because he was a heavy socialist. But for you to go to Switzerland, for
27:19 you to go to London, because I'm not uh we're not wealthy. I wasn't didn't have money here. Certainly. Uh first of all, I don't do it for my own sake. I mean, it's like going to anybody with a bit of a brain, let's say a bit of a brain, and saying you have to give everything up because the others want to become a prostitute, so you do what others want. That's more legitimate than being ideological. How did you live for the first 15 years? I taught I was teaching here. Was it enough for you? No, it was all right. You did with the same standards you used to. No. Was it hard? It wasn't hard. I had a great time. Did you cope easily? Yeah.
28:06 Life has always been easy on you and with you. No, I mean, you know, I think that uh in life you don't you don't need too much. You need friends and you need to do what you like doing and you know enjoy that and I work very hard. I didn't I I I've seen the world. I've been everywhere. I can travel. I can do everything. What about your purposes? What about your demands? What about your needs? the luxury. I didn't need to I didn't need to have uh yachts and uh hundreds of houses and you know dribbling in diamonds to be happy. Your projects range from urban scale through to products of furniture interiors. Some of them are very well known such as the famous chair which is sellable at Harolds for £16,000.
28:51 Uh the question remains who are your clients? Who does buy those furniturees? Well, car manufacturers are also Lebanese, you know. No, I don't know. William S and Parani. Mhm. I don't make the furniture. I design the furniture. You can call them up and tell them they sell it for so much money. It's a Lebanese price. Let's put it that way. Are they sellable? Well, they've sold a lot of them, but you can call them up. I'm asking you. I don't know them, but I'll do Well, I mean, I don't know. I don't keep a tap on what how much they sell. I think they do sell. But I think you you must definitely be interested, you know, in knowing how much they're selling or they're selling a lot. I I have so many things on my mind. How many
29:36 service they sell is not really the most important thing on my list of my list of problems. Had your architectural forms led to many paintings, drawings, and award-winning designs that inspired a lot of exhibitions. What are the major places where you have exhibited? Oh, we've had so many shows. I mean, from the, you know, Guggenheim to the Museum of Art in New York. Uh, more recently, we had a very big show in Rome, which was really tremendous fun. I mean, that was really great, uh, the show because we're doing a museum in Rome. So, that was really great. It's a great city. And, you know, when you go to always that light reminds you of the Mediterranean. So, it's it's quite nice to be there. I've had many exhibition. aid in 1999 2000 you have worked on the
30:21 stage set of the Petra boys world 2 how did it happen they just called us you know literally I mean they called us and asked us to do their set it was a new experience it was yeah was it a challenge for you it was because you know you don't think about a set how how many you know how many parts it comes in and and you know you don't think about it in that way so that was a kind of a challenging experience the stage how did you conceive it uh Well, since you don't like to say how did you dream about it? How did you conceive it? No, I mean know maybe one dreamt when when I was a kid. I don't think you know you are and as an adult you know you you just say I'm going to go to the toilet and dream. But you're an artist. You are I'm not an artist. An artist you know dreams. Well I I see I don't know. Maybe your
31:08 dreams are different than mine. I don't dream about I mean you know it's like more like a nightmare than Do you imagine something? You dream. I'm just saying, you know, I know the the effort it takes to make architecture. So, if I was going to dream about it, it's not like a nightmare. Not it's not a dream, you know, to um No, I mean, I think we were approached to do this and we always thought and how can you do a set where you can operate on more than one level on one layer. It was a very simple set and how you can have people can move around and stuff like that. And so, that's how we did it. It was like a big ramp and they can come down the ramp and go inside a room. And did you attend one of the concerts? I went to two or three. Mhm. Did you like the end product? Yeah, it was it was okay. It was fun.
31:54 International top architect had tonight on Future TV. We'll be back shortly. [Music] Back to international top architect Zahad on Future TV and Zah Hadid in April 5th, 1999. It was written in the Time magazine, Iraq born Zah Hadid has long been a famous architect. Now her designs are becoming reality. Usually, how do you respond to critics? Well, I mean, I think that Greek should really
32:40 know the full story, you know. I mean, I think that, you know, maybe I can't say it's not entirely for that it took so long. I mean, if I had compromised a great deal a lot, it would have happened earlier. I think there was I think that I underestimated the prejudice there is against women. I I really I mean I don't not trying to make excuses but I think that there was tremendous prejudice and also it didn't help that I was Iraqi. Uh also at the time I didn't think about I you know if I if I really believe that being an Iraqi was a big from me being here it would have definitely made me leave. Zah every time they mention your name the the expression Iraq architect is also mentioned.
33:25 Yeah it's always explain it. It's always puzzled me. I mean, I think they they don't know whether No, I think they don't it's ambiguous whether I'm Iraqi or British. Uh whether they should say I'm British architect or Iraqi architect. So, Iraqi born is safe safe. But what do you consider yourself to be? I'm an Arab and an Iraq, but I live here. I mean I can't aware of the this issue on you know I live here I try on a British passport so it's a it's a kind of hybrid and I think that is okay you are the osmosis of both nationalities well I'm not I'm not I can't say I'm
34:10 Brit English because I'm you know I'm I'm not half English I'm just live here I'm a I see myself as a Londoner really you know I live in London live in London for 30 years I see myself as a Londoner and I enjoy living But and I you know I'm and I also have my memories in Iraq and you know I speak Arabic and you know all that but not tonight because I I get you know I don't know the technical terms. I've been asked many times and I refuse many interviews they're in Arabic not because I can't speak it because I don't know the terms and I you know switch between Iraqi and Lebanese and I sound funny. Many architects try to compare your work to the dialogue in Woody Allen movies. What do you say?
34:56 That's a great compliment. Uhhuh. I'm not supposed to be an insult, but I think that's great. Does this hurt you? No, not at all. Not even slightly. No. But you're a woman. No. I mean, I think that, you know, you must be very sensitive. I mean, I think that if people have if they're ignorant, it's their problem, not mine. If they are prejudice, it's their problem not mine. I think the one thing which when you learn of being a foreigner in a foreign living in a foreign country being is that you have to accept difference. That's one one learn lesson you learn that that you are different from me doesn't mean you are worse than me or not good enough or bad or whatever. So I mean I think if we don't learn generosity
35:42 people are too dismissive about things they don't know and it really sheds a light on their ignorance. You know it's an issue of language can you say you know that English is better than Arabic or bad Arab in Japanese they're all different languages they all you know they all way communicate to each other different ways. So yeah, I just have people have to be generous about others and people will you know be generous back. During the last international union of architects held in Barcelona in 1997, the auditorium which was assigned for Zah had to give a conference had to be changed to a bigger one because of the over booking because your lecture recorded the highest attendance among the other speakers. When you came to
36:28 Lebanon also in 1997, 5 years ago or 6 years ago, all the schools of architectures had to suspend their classes because all the students came over to attend your lecture and to listen to you. uh we say that the young generations are fascinated by Zah had this fact due to your character or to your designs which are advanced aist as we say in French and revolutionary in both cases how do you explain that I've always had a very big student following even when I first started lecturing when I was I mean in the early 80s I think the student body the time who were always told by their professors
37:13 that you can only do things in a particular way. I think this gave them a light a way out, you know. So there was there I think people also want to believe in and change. They want to believe there's an another way. Uh you know I mean in the same way they attract it to different music or whatever. So I was always very supported by a lot of young people. Um and I was you know I mean in Barcelona it was a different story because all the lectures were overs subscribed not just mine. I mean I gave lecture in in a stadium. So so it was it was hilarious and we all had bodyguards and it was hysterical. Uh and was very moving. I mean you know to go back to be
37:59 after 21 years and to have that situation was really great. you know the way it was arranged or as slam insisted on doing two lectures which was I was reluctant about but it was really fantastic and the atmosphere was great again when you give a lecture you know not the number of people but the atmosphere in the room there was a really great atmosphere and I think people are intrigued because I'm so you know I'm one of them you know I'm I mean I'm an Arab um there are many of them knew me but I think people want to on one hand want me to fail but on many others want me to succeed because they want to believe that um the exotic is possible that the that someone who is down doing
38:45 things differently it's possible will not be kind of glammed down I think it's I don't know I can't explain any that they they're intrigued by it and they would like it to succeed but you know something people would say more And they would say that you've got followers, you've got disciples. They would say that you're worshiped, you know. You see, I don't see it in this way, you know. I I don't know. I mean, I really don't know. Don't tell me you don't know. No, I really don't. I promise you. I mean, I you know, I mean, in Rome, I was mobbed when I was there for my show 6 months ago. My office people were there. They were all shocked. They couldn't believe it. I was shocked, you know. I mean, so I don't really I really to kind of keep myself in a the real reality
39:32 realm. I don't think about in this way. It always surprised me. The in London, you don't have any of these things. If I lived in anywhere else, it would be constant reminder of these in these situations. But in London, nobody cares, you know, what you it doesn't matter what you are. And and and that's one thing which is nice about it is that you can carry on with life as usual. So I don't think of myself as really woripped or loved or whatever. We live on earth. I think it's very important because you have to be very self-critical. You know if you're not critical of what you do, you know, the more established you become people around you are less critical of you. So you have to be you have to you be your own critic. Zah, I've noticed something here in your office. uh your team or your crew is
40:20 mainly made up of young people, young architects. Uh is it on purpose or they are the only ones who believe in such theory in the path you've chosen in your architecture? Uh you prefer to work with young people. Uh do they carry you know more more values or do they carry you know values of the future? By choice I mean it's not by choice. It's a very tough office. Everybody knows it's it's very long hours you know I mean all people cannot stay up till 3:00 in the morning every day or midnight you know um it's a big mixture of people it's not one single nationality uh and also it's very demanding work you know and we attract the let's say the
41:06 most ambitious younger people so I mean I would like to have some older people there because only they had a degree of maturity and and you know I some people I can maybe talk to but you know there even the old ones look young here. It seems also that some of the people work here they work free of charge because of the prestige of willing to work with you. Nobody work for free of charge. No maybe one but no it's all they're all paid. We used to have sorry we used to have people sometimes used to offer their service for free but not anymore. Is that a hadith? How do you give birth to a project? How does the idea develop? How does the idea proliferate? And do you follow a project from the edge to
41:53 the edge? Well, you know the work starts usually it starts simultaneously. I have to have an idea, you know, I have to think about it and they have to start doing observation studies. So they may look at the ground or site whatever and then they come together and then also material studies done through models through modeling through computers through line drawings stuff like that it's all done at the same time a study we have a workshop they take you to the workshop y and you do all these things at the same time and I just look at it continuously
42:38 before it was very done by hand it was all in the office here didn't have a workshop was much closer here with like a family you know of 10 15 people of 20 people the most uh now we are 50 people so it doesn't have the same intimacy or closeness but we're still like we don't most bring them here we look at them we we sit all together study them but still if the number has increased we say that you are a onewoman show a oneman show you do everything on your own and you follow everything all the stages from A to Z is it true Yeah, but I mean it's not one man show anymore. It's I have lots of people and obviously I don't think any of this work could be possible. But you do supervise everything. Yeah. You don't give them full trust. Yeah, I do. Yeah, of course I do. But I
43:24 mean I also like working on these projects, you know. So I think the trick the real trick to really having a lot of it's delegate. If you don't you can't delegate, you can't do anything. I mean you know so it's a it's a it's a and I have let's say four very senior architects here one of them is awayate unfortunately who is really a partner now on many projects do you still have the same enthusiasm you used to have before towards your projects um yeah how do biddings happen I think I do is mostly I do through competitions uh I don't really have I hardly had any commissions So most of them are product which have been won
44:11 through competitions. Do you enjoy participating in competitions? Well, that's the only my only source of work. I mean, you know, I I like them on principle. If they're not uh challenging, they're not dirty. Uh some of them are dirty. So, you know, they're not really funny. Uh but meaning rigged, you know. Uh but if they're not rigged well because you know with it you can really push push the boundaries more because you know the time limitation is one thing you are you don't you don't have a contact with the client to start with. It's a very different chemistry after having been after being what you are today. Aren't you afraid or don't you fear losing any competition? Well I I know I will lose competitions but I mean it's okay. You can't win all the time. You can't always do something
44:56 fantastic all the time. You got to lose sometimes. I mean that's the way it is after 25 years in this profession. Are you making real money? No, you don't make money. You can't I mean you know it's impossible. You can't make money in. It's the most ridiculous profession. But your life standard has improved. No, not really. Not really. I mean marginally. It's very marginal. Don't have luxuries really. Um, I mean I could if I don't put money back in the office, I can have much better life. I mean, we make we make decent money, but it's not we're not making enormous profit. Tonight, we happen to be receiving to be hosting the international top architect Zahad. We'll be back with her for the last part, a very personal and intimate
45:43 one. Stay with us. [Music] [Applause] [Music] Zaha, you've lived in Beirut for several years. Do you still hold some nice memories? Do you still cherish some memories from Beirut? Yeah, I really love Beirut, actually. It's my was my second home and I still love it a great deal and um it's a great city. I was really amazed and surprised when I went back after all these years when I went back five six years ago that that energy which was always there was
46:28 still there. I thought it would be different. I mean everything changed but that energy was still there and I think that um that was remarkable for me very exciting to see that that that that energy can be still tapped on. So um I really hope they on one hand I hope I'm in a way I mean on one on one hand it's good they have a short memory because then they could not cope with the situation but on the other hand I think it's important to remember went wrong what went wrong because one should never repeat that again and this is a big problem and I my fear is that the memory is much too short. Mhm. And so I don't know I think the Arab world maybe the time its time will come
47:15 eventually you know and u you know they misunderstood as a nation. Is that how you got family over there in Beirut? No. You got your nephew you've got your niece. Yeah. And your nephew has my uncles. Are your uncles too family? No. Sabunji family. You've got your your nephew Hussein Hadid, the famous and the top cook in Lebanon today. You can greet him if you like. Say hi. Okay. Hi. Zaha, you're internationally well known. You've got disciples and followers all over. In few words, you are a celebrity. Did the situation change you somehow? Um, I don't think so.
48:01 But you do live as a diva. No, I live a very modest life. You have many excessives. You have many capuses. You're overdemanding and you want them to be fulfilled. All those capuses. For example, when you came to Lebanon in 1997 to give those two famous conferences, they had to change your suite twice. Once because of the color of the walls and the second time was because of the bad audio sound system. Isn't that the diva behavior? No, I mean I I had a room which I didn't like to start with. You don't like the color of the walls? No, there's nothing to do with diva. I mean I I want to be in a comfortable bed, but they also invite me to Lebanon.
48:48 They did the worst thing to me. I stayed 2 days later which I had to pay for. That's not a behavior, is it? They invited me to Beirut. They booked for five nights, but because I couldn't fly till Sunday, I had to pay for the two nights. Yeah. So, so don't talk about diva in this situation. You know, it wasn't worth it. I slept all the way there, gave two, three lectures. So, I didn't make a big fuss about that. I first time I mentioned it, but I would like it to be on on the air. Is that a hadith? Why are you always dressed in black? I like it. You're a woman in black. So, it's a good thing. It's all right. It's London. London is dark. I mean, I'm not going to walk around
49:33 with bright colors. I could. It's an after costume actually. Black. We're all dressed in black. You said one thing uh earlier that you're alone. You're not married. But are you lonely? No. By whom are you surrounded? I have lots of friends. Is there anything in your life you like to change? I mean lots of things touches what? Nothing particularly. I mean you know I mean you have to have one change otherwise you're like a doormat you know and shifting. Are you happy? What is happiness? What is it for you? I don't I mean it's a teenager's
50:21 paradise you know happiness be wandering around you know and dreaming. Well, no. I mean, people just like wondering around like, you know, are you happy? I mean, you know, I could be happy one day or could be not happy the next day, you know. I mean, I'm so overwhelmed with work and I'm always working and I'm always in the office. I'm traveling and giving lectures and teaching and everything. I really have very rare moments that I sit down and think, am I happy? What about your private life? Your life. You think about it. I don't think of my private life. It's my life, you know, private life, office life, work life, it's all intertwined, you know, it's not it's not it's not a compartment. Uh, you know,
51:06 I think that some people when they work to 9 to5, they go to work, they go to 9 to 5 at home, they switch off work and they go to work to home and they have their family life or whatever the life they have and they sleep and they wake up and they start with another life. In your case, I don't have that situation. It's all one continuous real film. At the beginning of the show, I've asked you if you think that you've reached the peak of your career. You said no, I still have a lot of things to achieve. And now at the end of this interview I ask you once again what do you want to achieve in my I mean of course it's not a it's not my my private life but in my professional life I would like to
51:53 achieve what I call the theoretical project which is a project which I think that um it has all the components of being the kind of really the perfect project. Is there any theoretical personal project? No. No, we have started in in Arabic and now we have to end up in Arabic.
52:49 No, just thanks Mercy. That's to all my friends. [Music]
