Air India Crash I Shocking New Details I "Light Turned Green" I Top U.S Lawyer vs Boeing I Barkha

0:17 top. This is the right time. >> [clears throat] >> mutual funds. This is the right time. Mutual fund investments are subject to market risks. Read all scheme related documents carefully. [music] The 91-year-old ailing father of Air India pilot Captain Sumit Sabarval has already in an exclusive and only

1:04 interview so far called out how the probe panel looking into the crash met him on the pretext of condolences and then pointed a finger at his son. He has shut down in that interview with me all whispers about a possible suicide mission by his son. Now America's top attorney Mike Andrews is here in India meeting with families of the victim. 130 families in counting will be suing Boeing. This even as questions continue to engulf the probe panel's findings. So far, the father of Captain Sumit Saburval along with the Federation of Pilots and other pilot associations in the Supreme Court to demand a new fresh

1:51 independent court monitored investigation. In a moment from now, we'll be talking live to Mike Andrews. I'm Barcadat, your with the Moja story. On the program today, it began with this heartbreaking interview. Air India pilot Sumit Sabharval's father Pushkar Rat Sabharval telling me through tears that when pro panel representatives of the AirIndia 171 crash came to meet him on the pretext of offering condolences they quickly shifted the conversation and started blaming his son for the crash instead. The important testimony in that interview is the father sharing his son's last words. words in which the AirIndindia pilot just as normal told his father that he

2:37 would be calling him from the other end at Gatwick airport. The plane of course crashed some seconds after it took off from Ahmedabad. That testimony is important the testimony in our exclusive interview for two reasons. One, it reveals how inappropriate the behavior was of the representatives of the investigation panel. But two, the testimony of the last words of the pilot to his father also capture a routine normaly belying all of the whispers that have been made about the mental condition of the pilot. In fact, top lawyers like American attorney Mike Andrews have called out the propensity, the lazy propensity to blame the pilot without evidence. Is that something that

3:23 is shielding behemoths like Boeing? I want to welcome to this program now live our newsmaker today Mike Andrews is with us. You've seen him on our programs before. Uh he is in India right now. In fact he's in Ahmedabad where the Air India 171 plane so tragically crashed moments after takeoff. Thank you very much uh Mike. Appreciate your time. Uh let me start by asking you what you've been able to gather on your few days here so far both from talking uh to the families of the victims as well as uh with your own assessment u and own research into what may have caused the crash also the probe investigation here in India engulfed by controversy. the father of the pilot no less uh in the

4:10 Supreme Court asking for a new probe uh in an interview to me uh he punctured uh many many holes uh in the you know uh in the panel and the direction it's taken so far. Uh go ahead Mike. >> Well thank you for having me again. Uh so for the last week we worked in the UK both in London and Leicester meeting with families there updating them on our progress answering questions that they have and discussing what we know so far. Uh this week and next we'll be traveling in different cities in India doing the very same thing. You know, the families today are just as committed, just as resolved as they were from the beginning, if not more so, to learn the

4:55 true answers behind what happened. We've all heard the stories here that of course, initially uh there was a the talk of a bird strike, which was shut down. There was the talk of improper flap settings and now of course the allegation of suicide and mass murder which we we've never believed that narrative. Uh if if if only to look at the video of the plane as it is taking off. We all have seen now the rat is deployed. Uh we've learned a lot about the rat and the conditions in which it should deploy and we know that if it happens something has gone wrong either a hydraulic failure, electric failure or a dual engine failure. Uh in this case we look also at the words of the

5:41 survivor fishwashkumar romesh who tells us that the just prior to the crash the lights flickered off and on and then turned to a greenish color. uh to us and to our experts that indicates an electrical failure. Uh and the greenish color may reflect uh the emergency lighting coming on. These things taken together indicate to us there is an electrical issue. And so our experts have helped us to understand the electrical architecture of the aircraft. uh what could go wrong, the kind of things that we can look at that could trigger a short circuit and things that may have been known by Boeing and the FAA uh years before this that could have been prevented.

6:27 >> So, you know, I have a lot of questions uh on on your surmise of a possible electrical failure. Uh but I also want to share with you uh an excerpt of my conversation with Captain Sumit Saba Burwal's uh father. Uh why I think this is so important is for two reasons. Uh one is uh that he basically revealed that when representatives of the investigative panel came to meet him, they came to meet him on the pretext of offering condolences. Uh but when they actually met him, they quickly started telling him that they believed that his son uh had in fact led this as a suicide and mass murder mission. He said that he didn't believe this for even a a a second and he thought it was absolute

7:12 nonsense. And the other important thing he shared was his son's final words. He said his son called him just as normal. Said, "Dad, I hope you're fine and I'm going to call you from the other end uh from Gatwick." certainly not uh the words of someone uh who was planning to take uh to to you know for this to be his final phone call. So I just want to play out this snippet for you. I think it'll be interesting for you uh to hear as well and come right back with more questions. Take a look. >> Thank you. >> Two people came to condol >> from the probe panel. >> Probe panel. They said that we are the investigators. >> Yes. But while talking and all that they are sharing and we are doing this thing and all that but suddenly one of them said that

8:01 he had a suicidal fitness. This had hurt me like hell. I told him that he was a professional pilot and a well experienced and he knew his knew his job very well. >> Yes. >> And it is incorrect. I do not know what a man can do in that few seconds less than 10 seconds what he did because at the profile of the flight which was shown on TV I feel it was a balanced flight till lost >> but here the words there is no thrust

8:48 and I'm sinking or something like that I'm losing height >> yeah because we don't have the exact transcript script. >> So that was that was visible and this made a med made. >> Yes. >> And nobody gave them actually they should give the CVR report, cockpit voice recorder report. Then flight data recorders are there. Everything can come perfectly well. Why they are hiding? >> Yeah. >> The thing is why they are hiding it? So this is uh uh Mike, a 91year-old father uh in the twilight of his life, fighting for the truth uh of what happened in that crash. And one of the things he said to me was he said, "This

9:33 isn't just about my son. This is about the safety of every passenger who ever takes a flight again." And I think that's what's important to remember. That's what uh is at stake. It's not just about the tragedy that has taken place, but a tragedy that, God forbid, uh can take place again. Uh two important points there. uh something you've been stressing on where is the transcript of the co cockpit voice recorder what are the details of uh the black boxes uh in India pilot associations are demanding to know why black boxes were sent abroad uh if they were uh when there is a sort of toprated facility to analyze them in India and then the Wall Street Journal reports that Indian and American investigators have been clashing over the direction of the probe so I want you to speak both about you know what the father is saying very important account there and also

10:20 these reports of clashes between Indian and American investigators and how that might impact your plans your case. >> Thank you. So obviously my heart goes out to this man who has lost his son. Uh and certainly I think it's unfair and conjecture uh for anyone to guess and blame the pilot when we still have this very small piece of decontextualized information that has led uh some to blame the pilot I think wrongly. Uh again, we aren't saying it was definitely one thing or another because the information just is not out. It's just not available yet. And so that speaks to the larger issue that you just mentioned, the the issue of the cockpit

11:06 voice recorder and the flight data recorder. You know, we've learned this week that members of the AIB and Indian investigators have traveled to Washington DC to meet with the NTSB to help examine and do a forensic analysis of the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder. One of the things that we suspect they will be doing is to get a timeline of the cockpit voice recorder and begin to listen for not only the conversations in the cockpit, but ambient noises in the background. And we've talked about this before, but they they should be able to hear some of the warnings that the pilots are experiencing in the cockpit. They should be able to hear uh maybe clicks or switches if that is the case. Uh but one

11:52 of the things that we are most interested in is how sounds on the cockpit voice recorder may line up with digital information contained on the flight data recorder. Specifically, what precipitated and caused the deployment of the RAT device as the plane was beginning to rotate during its takeoff. Uh that to us is key to understand what happened here. uh and so we expect that information will be forthcoming at some point. We have fully supported obviously the petitions uh that have been filed before and accepted by the Indian Supreme Court. Fully support the pilot's father and his efforts. Applaud his strength and perseverance uh in moving forward to find out the truth of what

12:39 happened because as you said this is not just about his son. This is about the safety of the flying public. And I will add even individuals who are not on board because as we know people who were on the ground at the college uh were also affected and those were individuals that never expected to be involved in an aviation disaster of any sort and so we applaud certainly and support his work. Are you concerned about the reports that the Americans and the Indians are clashing as per the Wall Street Journal uh with the Wall Street Journal reporting that the American investigators seem to want to pull this in the direction of pilot error or pilot blame or faulting the pilot? >> You know, that's a narrative that we

13:24 have seen um over and over time and time again. when there is a major crash, uh there's typically a rush to place the blame on the pilot who is deceased and can no longer speak for himself. Uh in some cases that comes out to be ultimately true. Uh but it again I'll say that I think it is wrong to unfairly jump to a conclusion to blame someone for suicide and mass murder until you have the facts. And in this case, the facts just aren't known yet, at least to us in the public. uh and certainly I think the the fact that there appears to be a clash between Indian and American uh or US investigators may point to the fact that there is an issue that needs to be explored. And and let me add this.

14:11 If the pilot suicide narrative were still going to be the story that is is apparently told here, why would the AIB need to go meet with the NTSB to examine the data? To us, it tells us that there is probably something there that needs to be examined further. As I've said, cockpit voice recorder will have ambient noises. The flight data recorder will have the digital record. And so whether there's a clash or not, the great thing about these recorders is that they will have the actual record of what's happening during leading up to during uh during the crash and what's happening in the cockpit. Uh so again, we we are very very interested by what's happening this

14:58 week with the meeting uh with the NTSB. Uh and and I think you rais an interesting point that if indeed uh Indian and American investigators are clashing then why are Indian investigators going uh to to to to meet with the their American counterparts uh in America? Uh what how concerned are you how concerned are you about Boeing and the pressure that it may be able to exert? Uh there are business deals at stake. There is the you know there are airlines around the world that are possibly impacted by what this probe panel discovers. Uh you know we have seen the Boeing CEO admit before US Congress uh on on on cutting corners before. We have seen what happened with

15:44 the 737 Max when the pilot was blamed and it took a second crash the Ethiopian air crash following the Lion Air crash to actually get to the fact that there was a software malfunction. Every pilot that I have interviewed in India uh believes uh that evidence primary points to some sort of electrical failure. Uh they also point to the fact that the recovery of the two black boxes uh the you know the way that that they were found, the condition in which they were found also points to something maybe possibly having taken place uh with the lithium ion batteries. This is of course all in the realm right now of reasonable uh reasonable guesswork because we simply don't have so much critical information like the time stamp of when the rat was deployed like the actual uh

16:31 cockpit voice recorder uh you know information from the black boxes and so on. So how concerned are you about the clout of Boeing? >> Well I think it's it's you're right to take that into consideration. Boeing is obviously a very large company with interest worldwide. Uh certainly a major manufacturer and supplier in the US and around the world and they do exert a a tremendous amount of influence in many many ways. Uh but you know for us again when when we have a situation like this in which data is available, there is a black box that was recovered, there is a cockpit voice recorder that is recovered, we tend to treat these comments that are made by Boeing and

17:16 others as sort of background static. Uh Boeing is going to do their part to defend their product. We certainly expect that and and we hear that regularly. Uh but that's why we try to stay focused on the actual data and until we have that there's just no way to know what may have happened. Uh but you're you're right Boeing will exert considerable influence uh in this again that's why we are encouraged uh that the investigation now is focusing on a forensic analysis of the data and the cockpit voice recorder. >> What is the feedback you are getting from families uh of the victims? You are in Ahmedabad. uh as we speak it is the the city where the crash took place. Um I know many of the families are of

18:02 course in uh in England uh which you just mentioned you have been to and now here you are in India. What is the one overwhelming feedback that you're getting from the from the relatives of the victims you are representing 130 families and you know those numbers could increase. What are they saying to you Mike? >> From the beginning has has told us that they want to know the truth. They want transparency. They want to know what happened, why it happened, and how it could have been prevented. They are still today, 6 months later, asking those very same questions. They are equally if not more resolved today uh as we get further away from the crash because as you know there are stages of

18:48 grief and at this point the families are attempting to adjust to their new normal. They are attempting to understand how they can go forward in many cases without the primary bread winner in their home. uh some families have uh in in the UK for example uh had to move from certain areas to to areas that are more economical or or or less expensive to live in uh just so they can make ends meet and in some cases children college children have had to uh drop out of school and go to work to help support the family. And so the families are suffering in in every way imaginable while they still try to uh look forward to and expect the truth and they are certainly looking to us and

19:34 others to help them navigate uh what's happening now and to help them understand as information does become available. >> Well, some of these stories are really heartbreaking. The images uh on our screen right now are that of a family that was getting onto a plane for the very first time in their life. They they were from a farmer's family in Gujarat where you are today and in fact they were so delighted to be traveling by air that they organized what's called a puja a prayer of the passports uh that they were holding for the first time. Little did they know uh that their very first flight would never uh in fact lead them to their destination but would lead them to death instead. Uh so really heartbreaking tales there. Mike, let me ask you in the end what is the strategy? What are you thinking? you know, uh, you you're you're suing Boeing. These

20:21 families, some of them come from very modest backgrounds. Uh, they will be counting on compensation. Uh, but, you know, they might be worried about getting into a lawsuit. They might be worried about pressure from behemoths like Boeing. So, how are you handling those concerns? So again, rather than focusing right now on the specifics of a of a potential lawsuit, we are still very much focused on finding out what happened. Uh that is where we have to start both for the families and their progress and path forward but also for any litigation because if if Boeing is found to be at fault or if component part manufacturers are at fault, we need to know who they were and what role they may have played.

21:08 And so again, rather than jump out and and you know, make specific allegations in a potential lawsuit, we are still right with the family very much focused on understanding what happened, how and why. Um but uh but you're correct. You know, these families are in many cases concerned about the implications of trying to seek justice uh because they're looking at a company, as you rightly said, uh the size of Boeing. And so we're trying to to be with them to help them understand the process uh and to help them understand the information as it comes out. >> Does accepting uh compensation in any way legally stop them from pursuing this case as it moves forward? >> That is an excellent question. We we

21:54 know that there was the interim payment of 25 lakhs and we think most families now have received that initial payment. Uh there was also then the 1 core offer from Tata which we understand families are working through that claims process. Some have received those payments. Uh I think many are still working through the paperwork. We have we have learned recently that there is a release that and we've heard this from our our clients that in some cases someone is presenting a release to some of the victims families to sign that would uh sign away their rights in these cases and and that would include Boeing and

22:41 and anyone else potentially that could be included in the case. We are concerned about that because certainly as this investigation is very active is ongoing. In fact, we have representatives in Washington today still trying to decode the data. Uh certainly we think it's improper at this point uh and wrong to ask anyone to sign a release that would potentially give up rights that they may not even understand that they have. So that's that you're you're exactly right. We're concerned about that. And if that is the case, if they do have to sign such a release, how does that implicate um or how does that impact the case ahead? >> Well, you know, in in some cases, if they sign a release and they've agreed

23:28 to give up their rights, it's going to create serious issues for them later. They may actually be surrendering their right. If they sign a release at this point, uh there's just no reason right now for anyone to sign a release uh that would compromise their rights in any way. We still don't know what caused this crash. The investigators don't know >> what caused this crash. And so we we are still encouraging all of our clients and certainly anyone who has an interest in this uh to remain focused on the search for the truth and remain focused on the search for what happened here. >> Yeah. Finally, uh you said that you are going by the only eyewitness uh who sur who has survived this crash, his testimony. Uh and you're you're looking

24:14 very closely at this account of flickering lights uh lights that turned you know green as it were before the plane went down. Um there are others who are talking about a possible electrical failure. There are others who are looking at uh you know uh whether airworthiness directives from Boeing on this very fleet uh is something that the pilots for example were even aware of. Uh you know did the regulator in India do what was needed? Did these directives get the attention they deserved? We've looked at everything from water leaks to uh to to you know other problems on the 787 in particular which is a highly computerized uh aircraft. We have the Osaka uh landing of this particular plane that highlights that uncommanded u

25:01 you know uncommanded action can take place. In other words, the pilot doesn't command it but the plane almost acts on its own. So I want to give you the last word as you try and understand what may have caused this crash. What specifically what are the specific leads you're looking at right now? So, we know that as you said, the survivor mentions this flickering of lights and then a greenish hue. That is an indicator to us of an electrical or a potential electrical problem. The deployment of the RAT uh device certainly at the time in which it was rotating from the runway and beginning to take off in the air. Uh that specific timing again is concerning to us because it could potentially point to an electrical problem. So we know that

25:46 there are these clues or these symptoms of something happening. Uh essentially the aircraft is telling us something is happening here. Something is wrong. Uh and there should be more data on the flight data recorder. So we we set that aside for a second and then we say okay what what is our understanding of the electrical architecture of this plane? And as you correctly stated it is a highly computerized very electrically operated aircraft. uh when it was marketed and sold, it was supposed to be the most complex electrically operated civilian aircraft to date. And so that presents certain challenges uh in managing the electrical system. Our understanding is there is a primary or what Boeing has referred to as a common

26:32 core electrical system and a backup or an emergency system. And the backup system typically will only add power to those devices that are essential for flight. it begins to to shed or to to disconnect uh things that are not completely essential for flight. And so the lighting can be one of those things. The deployment of the RAT certainly could indicate that it is needing additional backup power. Uh and so we have symptoms. We we know of things that can affect the electrical system. You mentioned water leaks uh and the FAA directive. you know FAA authority is within the United States. We don't know yet what extent uh emphasis may have

27:19 been placed on that directive outside of the country specifically in India. We do not know what what emphasis may or may not have been placed on the necessity uh to check for these water leaks to check for the couplings that need to be replaced because the documents are very clear uh from the FAA that water leaks can occur are occurring and can create electrical shorts. We we do not know yet if that is what is involved here. What we do know is that we have symptoms that indicate a potential electrical issue and we have a number of things that can affect the electrical system on this plane. That's why we are holding out and waiting for the data to help connect those two dots between the symptoms and the potential causes.

28:05 >> And before we let you go, uh how will you on behalf of the families get access to that data? Uh, one of the most controversial things about the interim report released by the uh, investigation panel here has been a summary uh, reference to a conversation purportedly between the two pilots on the fuel control switches. And everybody from the family to the Federation of Pilots has pushed back saying, you know, give us the verbatim transcript. Let us hear the cockpit voice recorder. You cannot do this third person uh sort of summary uh when you're talking about the last words of Captain Sumit Sabarval and his uh and his co-pilot. Um when you look at the direction in which the probe is going in

28:50 India, all of the accompanying lawsuits as well, the judges here in open court actually said uh that they were very disturbed by reporting in a section of the western media. They did they didn't believe anyone in the country at the moment has any reason to believe that the pilot was responsible for this. When you talk about how the answers lie in that data, are you going to maybe look at filing an interim u sort of petition for access to the data? Because God knows when a final report comes. God knows when the public has access to this data and by then a narrative may have set in and you know the probe may reach a conclusion that people don't agree with or agree with. >> Yeah. And and you're right that's that's

29:36 a major issue in this and in any other crash is how do we get to the actual data? We've tried to approach it in a number of ways. one, we filed a FOYA, a Freedom of Information Act request in the United States to the FAA for any information that they may have uh related to the initial investigation. Again, the investigation that sort of led up to this preliminary report which created many more questions than it provided answers. Um, we filed that months ago. uh and then of course our government in the United States experienced a shutdown in which all agencies essentially were paused and shut down. Uh that has resumed, business has resumed and so we have renewed our Freedom of Information Act request. We

30:22 are currently waiting for data or some response from the FAA. Whether they have data, they what they don't have, we just don't know yet, but we're trying to approach it from that direction. In addition, uh we feel that the pilots's petition before the Supreme Court uh is very encouraging and you mentioned statements that were made in open court. We we are very encouraged by those comments because we agree they echo our sentiments. It's wrong at this point for anyone to without basis blame the pilot for intentional mass murder and suicide. We need we need that data. And so certainly I think there's a growing recognition in India uh that from the court's perspective it is important to

31:08 examine what may have happened with this airplane before we jump to conclusions and blame a man who's not here to defend himself. Absolutely Mike and I know that 130 families uh but I think all of India would be looking towards uh you as well as the petitions in the Supreme Court that are already underway uh to get to the bottom of this. Uh the probe panel has unfortunately with its interim report uh left us with more questions than answers uh and and the report has been roundly criticized uh by by by so many people who are in the aviation industry. We thank you for your time and we wish you luck as you try and get to the bottom of what caused Air India 171 to crash. Thank you very much, Mike. >> Thank you for having me. Have a good night.

31:54 >> Thank you. You too. Bye-bye. >> It's great to see you here. Thank you for watching our work. If you haven't subscribed yet, don't forget to click the bell icon and subscribe to Mojo Story and support independent robust journalism.