0:02 You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being here, Ryan. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I have to have you. You don't. I couldn't do it without you. You could do this all on your lonesome. No way. It'd be boring as [ __ ] You you add fun. It's nice to have you here. It's I'm fun? Yeah, I think you're fun. Thanks. Yeah, I don't like to be alone. I think you know that about me. I think that's the main thing. Yeah, I don't like to be alone. No. Do you? I I could be alone, yeah. All right, well, fine. I could I could do this. can be alone. Why don't we just you know what I think we're saying is I should do this on Why don't we switch switch around? Yeah, I'll just do this. And then um I'll do hang out. I think that works. Guys, thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. If you enjoy it today, if you're here for Alan Ritchson and you
0:48 enjoy it, I hope you'll write a review. You'll follow us on our handles, which are @insideofyoupodcast on Twitter and Instagram, @insideofyoupod on the Facebook. Uh wait, @insideofyoupodcast on Facebook. Oh, Instagram and Facebook is @insideofyou podcast podcast and @insideofyoupod on the Twitter. And write a review and listen, you can watch it on YouTube. Uh I hope I hope you're with us. I hope you listen to us uh weekly and not just for, you know, intermittently. You want people to listen to you and hopefully like the uh interviews that you're bringing. Yes. You know what I mean? I know what you mean. I'm a little slow this morning. I'm a little slow. It is 2:00 in the afternoon. Is it 2:00 in the afternoon? It is when we're recording. Good for you. We got a great guest today. Uh he Jack Reacher is coming out. Jack Reacher is out. Uh it'll be out when
1:34 this airs. So, check out Jack Reacher. Alan has worked incredibly hard. Um my guest today has some crazy stories. I couldn't believe how open and honest uh Alan was. It's great. It's a good one. I mean, he talked sometimes where I just looked at him like, "Holy [ __ ] dude. This is Yeah." I mean, he really got deep and you're going to learn a lot and I think you're going to respect him for his uh his sincerity, his vulnerability, his just being down-to-earth and real. Uh guys, I want to thank all my patrons. If you're listening and you don't know what a patron is, you go to patreon.com/insideofyou. p a t r e o n .com/insideofyou. Um People who give back to the podcast.
2:20 Without patrons, I don't know where this podcast would be, but you guys really keep it going. And um those that give back, you can look on there. There's tiers. There's a top tier where I send packages to you every 4 months. Um I do YouTube lives. It's a it's a family affair. It's a lot of fun. I really love it. Um I just did a uh what-you-ma-call-it, a Zoom with all my top-tier patrons. Cool. And we had a Zoom, we had a nice chat. It was really lovely. Uh also, the Inside of You online store is open, is around. We have some Smallville scripts signed by me, Smallville lunchbox, we have uh pictures, we have Inside of You mugs, we have new mugs, we have tons of stuff. Go to the Inside of You online store and check that out. Also, I'm I'm on Cameo.
3:05 You could get a nice fun happy Cameo from me. Isn't that great? Oh, nice. Like, for instance, Ryan, if you were uh if you got a Cameo from me, I'd go, "Ryan, dude. Hey, happy freaking birthday, buddy. It's your friend here." Why don't I just get one right now? Well, yeah, I'm giving you one right here. You just edit this out. I'm getting a free Cameo. Yeah, you get a free Cameo. Um I want to thank everybody for coming to see uh my band Sunspin. We did a live virtual show. We do one at the end of the last Saturday of every month. I really appreciate it. Uh we'll be informing you on upcoming shows. But again, listen to the show. Write a review. I I really hope you do. And without further ado, why don't we just get inside of Alan Ritchson. It's my point of view.
3:52 You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. I mean, you're doing a lot of press right now. You're Jack Reacher is a huge show. It's going to be a huge show on Amazon. Well, we hope. You hope people watch it. Yeah, I hope Yeah, I hope the 200 million people that have read the books you know, want to watch the show. I think they'll probably going to give it a shot. I think the movie was a big success. They got to be intrigued. Yeah, I think so. I Yeah. I mean, and it's good. It's faithfully adapted to For those that don't know,
4:38 I play Reacher on the TV series. It was a film. It's also There's 26, 7 books. Are there 27 books, really? A lot of books, yeah. Holy [ __ ] How do they write that much about Jack Reacher? What's so interesting about Jack Reacher? Have you read the books? I have not a big reader. Rosenbaum. Have you read the books, Ryan? I'm not a Jack reader, no. Guys. Not Jack reader. This is like the second highest-selling book of all time. Do you read Harry Potter? Have you read the Harry Potter books? read some Harry Potters. you did. You nerd. I I'm a bit of a nerd. What a nerd. I read two of them. I wrote I read the first one and the second one. Unbelievable. Yeah, I'm more into nonfiction, but uh but for watching a television program
5:23 Like self-help books? Uh well, sure. I'm trying to work on myself nowadays. I do the same thing. Do you you know, on your Instagrams, you're very uh open, very personable, and uh welcoming. And I really appreciate that. You're very humble. Like I I see your Instagram lives that you do that. What is What inspired you to do that? What are you doing? Yeah, that's a good question. Um thanks for that, by the way. Yeah. Um You know, I had an I guess like an early midlife crisis. Really? And uh yeah, sure. Cuz how old are you? I've been very open about it. Um I'm 39 now. He's 39. Yeah. How old are you? I'm 49. How old are you? 33. Uh a baby. What an infant. Take your diaper off and change your Change his diaper right now. But wow, so you had a midlife crisis. I
6:08 think I'm having one of those now. I'm in the past 4 years, yeah. In in what in what way? Just overwhelmed, anxious, uh had a little bout of depression, had a little uh you know, there's a lot of things that just kind of escalated. So, what So, depression though, this is something I dealt with for the first time. And and you know, I have an understanding of what I think I personally, this is not like I'm not a scientist here, you know? I think I understand where depression comes from. Talk about it. But what is it for you? I'm just curious where where you think. Um I think it's these these uh I think, you know, they always say the past is depression and the future is anxiety. When you're thinking into the future, you're thinking anxiety. Anything into the past is through depression. Um I think with me is uh when I get anxious or when I I'm in pain, I I
6:55 almost feel a sense of I'm not whole, I'm not complete, I'm not perfect, I'm not all these things and it gives me anxiety thinking, "How do I get back to normalcy?" And what is normalcy? And uh well, when I was 30s, I could I and I think when I when I 20s and 30s, I could deal with high levels of stress and get through it because I was young and everything was you know, I was more I don't know if I was more athletic, but I was just younger. And then at a certain level, the same stresses were there, but my body wasn't taking it in like it did. It wasn't uh it was kind of wrecking me. Right. So, you know, I'm like, "Why am I always [ __ ] tired?" My friend Tom's like, "Cuz you're [ __ ] 49, dude." And I'm like, "No, that's not it. I'm I'm always tired though. I'm always" People are like, "Are you okay? You look a little tired."
7:40 I'm like, "Fuck you." I hate when people do that. when people say you look tired. Especially for somebody like myself who's, you know, I regenerate alone. Like, that's when I'm you know, I can go out. You know, people see like the characters that I do, they're so high energy. But when I'm when I'm by myself, I'm not like I'm not doing mountains of blow off the coffee table, you know? I'm just I'm retreating into myself into my thoughts and Right. people see that and and they think that kind of isolation is like there's something wrong with you. Drives me crazy as a performer that people expect you to sort of be on and if you're not, there's something wrong with you. That's exactly right. That And then I feel like that's you and I are uh we share that that people always think of me as uh hyper or, you know, always on and being funny. And the second that I'm not, something's wrong with me. Right. Right. And uh you know, that's I've had to deal
8:27 with that my whole life. But also, when I think when you talk about depression, depression can, you know, really be the past. Could be things that have like sort of happened in your childhood, things that have happened that you haven't addressed. Trauma. And trauma, certain trauma. So, there's Everybody has their demons and, you know, I'm you know, I work through mine with therapy and, you know, try to exercise and but uh I'm just I expect more out of myself. And that's a lot lot to handle. Like, I always like, you can't be tired. You You're not allowed to be tired. You can't And and I'm like, "Well, what's wrong with me that I can't, you know, uh And I'm just I have to I do have to put things into perspective. Like, you aren't 38, 39. You are 49. You're going to get more tired. You're going to deal
9:13 you know, but Well, not only that, but we live in a culture right now that not right now. We have the Western culture, you know, as long as capitalism's been around, that feeds this idea into our minds from the a very young age that says, "If you aren't grinding yourself down, you're not you're not working hard enough. If you don't work hard enough, you won't be successful." You know, this correlation between hard work and fatigue and success. Elon Musk, you know, I think tweeted recently something that was just sort of you know, if you're not working 80, 90 hours a week, you're not you know, you don't deserve it, whatever it is you're after. I don't know you know, That's a lot. Not not quoting him, but but you know, and it's um you know, the fact that we should feel like, you know, we deserve poverty or somebody deserves poverty because they decide to rest their body a
9:59 little bit is a ridiculous idea when you think about it, you know? I mean, yeah, that idea that like we you know, we should be we should be going all the time is It's crazy. It's good that's really it's what kills us. That's crazy. it would would tortures us is that we just don't take a break from it. We don't uh give ourselves a moment. Right. Yeah, and I think that's kind of what it was for me, you know, I mean I think it's a couple things. You talk about trauma, certainly regret and shame has something to do with the present state of feeling depressed, you know? Um but I think um I think really for me I think it at its core the the deepest root or tap root of depression has to do with purpose. And and uh when we stray from purpose or we don't understand our purpose, meaning why we're here and what we're supposed
10:45 to be doing with everything that you know, is within our orbit, um I think you know, that's just a one red flag, you know, depression. Um you know, but I you know, also like a very the you know, from a very realistic standpoint, a scientific standpoint, brain incoherency is a very real thing that nobody really talks about. that? You know, we've got these five brain waves, right? That the alpha, the beta, you know, they're all fighting for supremacy at any one time, you know? And we are very good at remaining in the the the one brain wave from the time that we wake up in the morning to the time that we go to sleep that is the most high energy, most demanding, most sapping. It's the one that we feel like we can problem solve, present in the moment. It's almost fight or flight. But that's not how we were made to exist. That's something that we should be able to tap into and then and then
11:31 you know, turn that gear off, you know, switch the transmission a little bit. And we're better in um a brain wave state that's more calm and reflective and meditative. And we find that our high creative you know, the the most creative uh versions of ourself um is usually expressed in that brain wave state, which we have to force ourself into, you know? Especially with all the noise that we have in culture. And how do we do that? Through meditation, uh prayer, So things that they just don't really embed in your Not at all, but this is not part of slowing down and meditating is not part of the conversation. That's not part of the you know, successful equation. If you you know, if there's a formula for success today like we were you know, like we were just saying, it's not it's not slowing down and thinking or finding
12:17 ways to just move, you know? Um Um you know, like you know, there's uh there's these adult swing sets that that are that are being built that are just about creating a motion for your brain that actually can help trigger a response with your brain waves that are you know, Really? Yeah, like surfing is is also but you know, there's certain ways to create a flow for your brain that actually put it in a certain state, you know? Um but it that when when we're in this frenetic brain energy that's taxing um all the time and you know, the body really wants to be somewhere else, that incoherency is detrimental to our spirit, our body, all that, you know? So um so I think when we're when we are incoherent and everything's sort of all are battling at
13:04 the same time for some some healthy state in us, um we might feel or express that as like this feeling of depression, I think of like I can't handle this, you know? How old were you when you got this when you had this so-called midlife crisis or what you what you call it? Yeah, probably uh I think it was maybe 36, 35 or 36. 35 or 36. So you've already at this point you have three boys. Right. So you have three kids, you're married and then I don't want to say you decide to have a midlife crisis. You have a midlife crisis. Yeah, I mean but you know, I think for me it was a matter of you know, you know, you think I think when you have kids there's a part of you that thinks there's no way it can ever go wrong for me. I have to find a way to make everything go right because look at what I am responsible for now.
13:49 Oof, scary. You know, you like there's no you know, I'm not there's no luxury of making mistakes anymore, you know? Or bad decisions or whatever. And unfortunately you find that like you know, like all things, you know, marriage, you know, people sometimes don't don't use marriage to fix your relationship, you know, those problems will follow you. Same thing with kids like I think some people think I I didn't go into having kids thinking this, but you know, um there's a pressure, you know, um as any decent human being I think would have to go like I have to provide stability. Yeah, I don't want to fail and I don't want to like uh fall apart and I don't want to It's uh you know, another way to say it is like I no longer have the luxury of discovering who I am. I have to just know. That moment, this instant. Now I'm a father. I better know who I am because if I
14:35 don't, there's something terribly wrong with this situation that's going to be out of You know, yeah, it is. to deal with that. And I'm I'm getting anxiety thinking about it. Yeah, well and and these are thoughts I think that maybe we have with ourselves like on a subconscious level. At least I did. It wasn't something I could vocalize at the time. I didn't I I think I knew somewhere deep down that there was a bit of panic. But you're also you know, you do what you do especially when you're young where you're like you just I'm like you know, there's no problem here. I can do this. I can do this and I'm going to have to do this. I have to You have no choice. Get up, Alan. Yeah. You got three kids, get to [ __ ] work. Let's go. You're right. That's what society and what every everybody's telling you sort of like and you are kind of falling apart at the same time, right? Trying to be this man that you can't possibly be or or trying
15:22 to be. Right. Inside of You is brought to you by my good friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp online therapy is uh somebody a company that's been with me for a while now and um if you listen to the podcast, you understand why. They're really helping people. They're helping people like my friend Ryan here. Ryan, do you still go to BetterHelp? I still go to BetterHelp. And how much is it helping you? It is helping immensely. Yeah, a lot of my friends are like, "Is this is this real the real deal with BetterHelp?" I'm like, "Yeah, man. It's a lot of people are using it and really liking it." I get letters all the time sent to me that say, "Hey, thanks for you know, your BetterHelp uh sponsor cuz they're really helping me." And you know, you definitely save a lot more than going to you know, just getting in your car and going somewhere.
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19:59 with a K and use promo code inside 15 for 15% off your first order. Remember, we are a direct outcome of our daily habits. Some habits will break you, some will make you. Creatures of Habit is here to support you on the journey of making greatness a bigger part of your life. So, do you feel like there's a pressure of your your trying to be the best dad, trying to be the best husband, trying to do all these things and that's what part of it was? Yes, and then trying to reconcile that with reality, which, you know, um you you there were moments that I were very difficult, you know, and and, you know, keeping my marriage together was very difficult, you know, I was you know, as my career was accelerating and I was working on bigger films with bigger stars and, um, you know, and then realizing, you know, not everybody that you work with cares that you're married
20:45 and, you know, there's a lot of friction because uh some people would rather you not be married and then you're like, maybe I shouldn't be married. Right. You know, I mean, it's very, you know, um uh it's a difficult uh it's a difficult place to be and, um you know, so there was a lot of growing pains and, you know, for somebody who grew up very blue collar um in North Dakota And yeah, I was born in North Dakota. I I was raised in Illinois and Florida, you know, my I I have a place in Florida now. I live there now. Um you know, uh being confronted with you know um you know, starlets and, you know, films and the press and and what people so often, you know, attribute to uh celebrity like the, you know, the red carpets and the picture You know what I mean? You know, there's like the glitz
21:31 and glam of it all, which is not all it is at all. No, it was a very small part of it. Um and a part of it that doesn't matter, but um you know, being confronted with that and going like, oh, there's this whole other side of life that I had no idea existed and now I'm being exposed to it, but I'm also married and I've got young kids and who I who am I Did I jump the gun here? You know, I mean, you have to You start to second guess yourself. lying if I didn't say that, you know, I've been very open with my wife about this, you know, and You were enticed. There was mo Yeah, sure, there's moments where like, I don't know if, you know, um I don't know if the life I chose is the life I want right now, you know? And then you start you know, and then you feel a huge amount of guilt and shame for even thinking those thoughts, you know, which um so there was, you know, that was there was sort of that thing like under the cauldron a little bit. Um
22:16 but then I, you know, I bizarrely for me it was a I had a very good year. Like a very good year. Wow. But it was too it was too much. You know, I took on every, you know, I wrote I you know, I write down my goals at the beginning of the year, put it on paper, let me put it out into the world. I want to direct a film, I want to sell this script, I want to sell a manuscript for a book, I want to do and everything that I I every I ticked every box. it happen. Yeah, dude, it was a good year and, um you know, reap the rewards from that financially, you know, and uh but servicing all those monsters that I was creating was becoming too much. And so I had to force myself into this brainwave state for 9 months. I like made myself manic to deal with this, you know, so I've got identity issues
23:04 issues to deal with all of that. Sure. I mean, you know, uns you know, not that I that I was talking about it every day, but just knowing that there's something behind the the veil there that's like, I'm not sure who I am or what my purpose is here in my marriage or in my life or career. And then I'm manic for for for far longer than I should be to to service all these masters. And and then I had the straw that I think broke the camel's back was um I had a business partner who I had done everything right for, you know, I had uh I you know, honored faithfully all our contracts, like was doing a great job making a successful business for us. honest. Very honest and multiple audits by some of the biggest auditing firms to prove that because there were like false
23:50 allegations when there was retribution for me deciding to walk away, but um I was confronted with a business partner who um gave me an ultimatum, you know, well into our business dealings together, like if I didn't provide this quid pro quo relationship thing that she was going to um destroy my reputation and our businesses. She didn't care, she had so much money anyway. And uh you know, you know, needing being confronted with this sense of like, well you know, I know I'm not perfect and I have issues but when you do it all right, and this is where you end up anyway in a in like a long drawn out legal battle just trying to um you know, prot you know, protect your reputation cuz you got somebody making these false ac You know, I mean, I had lawyers calling me up going, you're dead meat, buddy. And I'm like, who is this? And
24:36 they're like, we know that you've been buying houses with, you know, Bitcoin and you've been taking stealing money from the company and you've been buying cars and I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, I've never audit me then. There's nothing worse than being innocent or not having done anything wrong. And people accusing you of it. That's that's a terrible thing. said, if you don't come up to my hotel room right now and give me what I want I'm going to call TMZ and tell them that you are you you were sexually assaulted me, tried to rape me and by the time you by the time by the time you clear it up, everybody will already think that you're that, you know, like it won't matter. The damage will be done. That like that to my face, that threat. And I was like you you're making a huge mistake. Like this is that's not I mean And you're feeling this. Yeah, dude. You're feeling the stress, you're
25:22 feeling the anxiety. dude, all that, man. So, um so so so, you know, I flew I flew home after that conversation and I got lawyered up, you know, to protect myself and thankfully like nothing ever happened, you know, that came of it, but um but uh you know, that coming coming out of that season of busyness and and all that the manic energy for far longer than we should ever have to sustain that kind of energy this I you know, this this crisis of like faith in humanity you know, um a little bit of uncertainty of like where I should be right now crisis a little bit, you know. all, dude. It And you you came to your wife and you told her honestly, this is what I'm feeling and this is what I'm thinking and I don't want to ruin this marriage, but these are kind of what's I came to her and I said, I think it's
26:08 better if I'm not here. Really? Yeah. And what she say? Please don't do anything crazy. You know, it was a very real conversation. like here meaning like if you weren't alive. Yeah. You were that bad. You were dark. It was very I could not pull myself out of it, you know, cuz once I once I got settled down back in LA after all of it, after all the dust settled I was like I could I couldn't get up in the morning. Like, you know, the things that you talk about with depression, like I could you know, only wanted to sleep all the time. It felt so foreign to me, somebody with like this zest for life and this energy that's you know, I mean, this drive, this work ethic, like it's it's insatiable and to feel like I don't I can't get out of bed. I didn't understand why I would want to anyway. And then feeling like now I'm
26:54 just a burden to my family that my kids are seeing me like this. I can't let them see me like this. This is I'm like this shell of myself and they see me in bed all day. It would just be better if I wasn't here. And uh Wow. Uh yeah, man. And know what that's like. I know what it's like just waking up and going, I just want to go back to sleep. I just want to lie down. I don't have enough energy for the day. And that's depression, huh? Yeah. And but that but that depression is a red flag for something much deeper, which for me was about purpose and I didn't know I So, I've been open about this. I've talked about this publicly on my little channel, my you know, trying to help people who maybe have felt like this and don't understand it, hold on just a little longer cuz if you do hold on just a little longer and you felt like this, there is hope for you.
27:39 There's hope for a better day where we can remember why we're here, remember who we are and and and and take time to find our purpose. And sometimes that means a big shift, sometimes a little shift. Um for me it still sort of fit my understanding of the world, but I needed to make a a choice about who I wanted to be and what that, you know, the consequences of that would be in my outward life, you know, and um I didn't know that at the time. I couldn't speak to that at the time, but I uh I went up in my attic. I had a uh a big house with um a you know, second story that I turned into movie sets. Right. And I went up in uh this movie set that I shot in. It was such a weird such a still such a weird thing to think about, but um and I don't know why I went up there. I
28:25 just felt like the only place to do this, the best place to do this. I don't know. And I I uh I strung a green extension cord around some rafters in my set, you know, that like there's no roof. It's a fly walls and stuff and um and I hung myself. And you hung yourself. Yeah. Yeah, and it's still hard to think about the fact that like I would do something like that to myself, especially with kids, but I I I now understand what it's like when people are like, I don't understand why they would kill themselves. And I'm like, I can tell you from experience, they thought they were giving the world a gift. That is the saddest lie that we could tell ourselves, but Jeez. I thought that I was doing my family and my community a favor because I I was
29:11 such a mess mentally. Like I in nobody ever tells you that like when you get to the top, there's nothing there. There's nothing there. There's just more of that. If you want it, you know, I had ground and scraped and fought to make movies and to make the things that I wanted to make and to sell books and sell scripts and I was doing all those things and then I get there and I'm like a broken shell of myself with this relationship that threatened to sort of like truly like wreck my life and I had done nothing to deserve that. And you know, I'm like, what are What is life? Like what you know, I'm so backwards. Um Or you thought everything that was going to make you happy didn't. Yes. Everything you wanted to do you were doing, but you still weren't happy. But I was you know, but I'm I'm a
29:57 victim. I'm I'm a I'm a product, I should say, of these systems that we all survive in, which is you know, this sort of capitalist driven corporate corporatocracy kind of driven way of of of merchandising and commercializing every thought and fear and moment that we have in our lives and never giving us a chance to slow down and you know, when when I was able to I I I was on my way out and I saw my kids and I saw them grown up. And You really saw that. Yes, I did. And and I saw them asking me just like a like a mature grown adult would say you know, say
30:43 something very calmly without emotion like, please don't do this. It was such a such a startling image that you know, you know, them saying we need you that I I climbed up out of that. I pulled myself up and I I got out of that and uh Was it hard to get out of that? I mean, thank God I work out cuz I mean, if I didn't You wouldn't have been have the strength to do it. You know, but I did and um And uh you know, so I got up there And did you just get hysterical after that? Yeah. Just like kind of lost your mind for a second. yeah, like this is where I am? What is wrong? And this is after a good year. This is after making tons of money. This is after like this is after accomplishing all the goals. How How can
31:30 that be? Like, that's not something we talk about that that that there's nothing there at the top that like you know, that life isn't about you know, Jim Carrey said it before. You know, I hope everybody gets what they want and gets the riches that their hearts desire so they realize that there's no that's not what life is all about. That's not what will make you happy. Um you know, some people have discovered that truth and so you talk about what inspired me to start talking about something more meaningful on my channel. And it was this realization when I came out of that I called a doctor that I've never talked to. I have a therapist a shrink in LA um who seemed to be able to help people like this, you know, it was advertising that kind of thing and I said I need
32:17 help immediately. Like this hour cuz I don't know what's going to happen, right? I'm I'm out of my mind. And um And I he got you know, he he sees me and you know, he it was the first time I ever heard the word bipolar and my name in the same sentence. He goes we did we took some tests together and he goes, okay, you're bipolar bipolar one and little bipolar two, you know. And I was like I go sorry for causing a lot of you know, I try swear. I know a lot of young people, but you know, you follow me because of the stuff that I talk about on my channel, but I was so pissed. I was like, [ __ ] you, man. And I'm still a little I'm I'm like, [ __ ] you, man. I'm not I'm not. [ __ ] you. And he was like, okay. He like he's probably done this a thousand times with people. Right. But I almost thought you'd feel like a relief like you know what it is.
33:04 You want to put me in a box? You want to put me in a little category, especially category of like basket cases? Like, [ __ ] you, man. I'm healthy. Yes, dude. I No, I resisted. I resisted and then he goes, I think there's medication and I'm like, [ __ ] you, man. I'm out and I left. I left and I like go down to the parking garage and I'm like sweating and pissed and I know he's right, you know, I know he's right. And I go back and I'm like um I'm a little I'm having a hard time dealing with this, but let's talk about what you know of this. And then and then he goes um We don't know a lot about bipolar and I was so he goes, but let's get you on this medication lamotrigine. And I'm like, what's lamotrigine? And he's like, well, it was used for anti-seizure you know, for epileptic you know epileptic
33:49 people with epilepsy. Right. And um And and they find that it kind of you know, it works for some reason with bipolar and I'm like, how does it work? Like, what does it do? And what is it going to make me feel like? And he's like, well, I don't know. I don't know. And I was like, you don't know? You're prescribing this stuff you don't know? Everybody's different. and I it start I started a journey of like really studying this stuff and I I've read every book on bipolar. I wanted better answers and now I understand a little bit more about it and I definitely got a lot more out of my research than that conversation gave me, but it's also helped me sort of reconcile with the fact that you know This is actually you know, in a lot of ways it's a gift the way that a bipolar mind works, you know, um We I think we have the ability to tap
34:34 into emotions immediately that and and and the range is you know, it's like having a 2000 key keyboard and I can I can hit both the highest and the lowest almost without a delay, you know, between and most people can't swing that, but I think being able to feel those things gives us an advantage in understanding people and But the highs and lows are too much. You need help with that. right? If we and if we and if we occupy one space for too long, especially high energy spaces too long, that can be very dangerous, you know, there's also you know, the danger of like reckless behavior, which is something it's you know, I look back in my life in the past and we start to go like, oh, it actually makes a lot of sense. Right. The things that I've been dealing with in the seasons of that and I you know, it's like, okay. And then having a language having a way
35:20 to to to to talk about that makes it so much easier to confront it and you know, you don't feel like a freak or like you're a psycho, you know, like you just it's it's something that we can name and and there are you know, we don't understand everything about it, but we can understand how to best uh craft uh rituals and routines that help us avoid some of the more dangerous aspects of that kind of brain chemistry. Right. You know, and so you know, like my wife and I she's been amazing. I mean, she We talk about this kind of stuff. We talk about suicide. We talk about bipolar mania. We talk about hyper you know we we deal with these things and she talks about it like it's like I'm going to get butter from the store. Really? Just so such an open forum for
36:07 it all. I'm like, yeah, I feel like I [ __ ] I just want to go and machine gun everybody and I she's like, okay, let's talk about it, you know, like that's white bread. I'm going to go get this you want sourdough or white bread? You know, it's like nothing for me. to therapy before this doctor with bipolar? You were dabbled in it maybe. Yeah, but the kind of therapy I'd gone to was not for this. It was related to marriage there was like marriage counseling. How do we how how you know, how do we who were married very young I've known my wife since high school. We weren't exclusive since then like she lived a life. I lived a life and then we found each other again. It was like, where where was this the whole time? This is you're wonderful. Um uh you know, how do we now navigate this world that's so foreign to what is you know, I mean the life of a public figure you know, or somebody that's like working in TV or
36:53 film is just it's not something there's no textbook on how to you know, manage that and there's so many landmines. There are so many landmines, you know. And you constantly step on them. Uh sometimes you run to them and jump on them with both feet, you know. Exactly. so you know, learning how to navigate that together, you know, um uh and for her to learn how to deal with that, you know, realizing that both people out there can say heinous terrible things to her and she's done nothing to deserve that, you know, like like suddenly she's this uh piece of conversation for you know, fodder and Right. And also that there are people out there that don't care that she's married. Don't care that she's a she's not part of the equation, you know, like um you know, uh
37:39 it's you know, it's just she has to let go of a lot, you know, a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety, a lot of questions. Was she kind of freaked out when you first told her I have bipolar? Uh I think it was it was like, of course. Oh, well, that makes sense. Yeah. Oh, okay. It's kind of like you're manic and then you're really would you always can you tell like that's what you that's what you'd be you'd be either really manic or really depressed? You know, for her yes. You know, I but I didn't really experience the depression. It was more a retreat from all of life, which is just always been my MO. Like and I it's not me it's not because I don't like people. I just live in my head and that's where I recover and that's you know, that's something like the textbooks will talk about. Like there are people especially like high creatives or highly sensible individuals. A lot of them rejuvenate regenerate alone and that's
38:26 just always been my thing. And so that's sort of what it looked like, you know, the depression was new and it was savage when it struck it struck so hard. So it just hit you out of the blue and what what is an overall feeling? Do you feel like you're just you just want to sleep? You just tired? Sleep or tired all the negative thoughts not understanding how to get motivated. I mean, somebody who's worked out forever and you know, my livelihood and and large part didn't have the energy to do it. No energy or wherewithal. Like I literally was saying to myself, how does anybody even get up to go to the gym? Like I I never want to work out again. Like there was no motivation to do anything. Oh. Anything. I could not get my feet on the floor in the morning. When I did I didn't care and I you know, and there's also this cynicism to life, you know, like, why are we even [ __ ] here, you know, like
39:11 Look at how how much pain is in the world. Look at how violent we are to each other. You know, everybody is out for blood, you know, and and everybody's out for themselves. You know, it's tough thing to reconcile and so at the end of the day learning finding routines and rituals, you know, even even something as simple as like making tea at night, you know, it's like something so it kind of serene and meditative that it helps pull my brain out of this like feisty place that it lives 24/7, you know. you're doing medication. You are on medication. And that really has changed your life? Sure. And you know, um I don't know that I'm on it until I stop taking it. And then my wife goes, "Are you on your medication?" "Don't you talk to me about medication? I DON'T NEED MEDICATION. She's like, "You're off. You're off. You
39:57 got to get it cuz I keep thinking I tell myself like I tell you know, I go 6 months without missing any. And I'm like, "I'm fine. I don't need to do this the rest of my life. I don't need to do this." I'm fine. "I'm totally fine." Yeah. And then uh and then the wheels start coming off and you're like, "I just can't." LIKE EVERYBODY'S SO WOW. EVERYBODY'S SO LOUD. SO, ONCE you start you got on this medication, once you start going to this therapy, once you had the realization that, "Hey, my brain chemistry is different than everybody else's. It's just a and it It just takes a different kind of effort to All of a sudden you had the the the thought, the wherewithal to uh want to go work out again. I had the desire, the motivation. All these things came back? Yeah, I well I had to force myself to work out. It was I hired a trainer, which I've never done. You know, I never needed to. I You know, I mean I think about it now and I'm like, "I can't
40:43 believe that's where I was You know, um I one of the first businesses I ever invested in was a fitness franchise that I ran. Like I I'm the guy that runs that stuff. I don't need a trainer." And I had to hire somebody cuz I was like, "This is the only way I'm going to get in the gym." And and and I told him about where I was and then he uh his name is Justin Falahi. He was incredible, very patient with me and um and helped coax me out of that, you know. Um so I needed to I did what I threw whatever I could at life to help me sort of pull through. Um but you know, for faith is a big part of it for me, you know, I'm you know, some people I I think you know, I I almost envy people who feel like they can they're fine going through life without any thought of what's beyond, you know. Right. Um I If that works for you, then great.
41:29 I have to have faith in something. I'm deeply conflicted if not because otherwise like I don't understand what what the point of this I mean, there's no there's no way to reconcile the pain in the world without an ultimate sense of like hope and justice happening, you know, for myself and others. I mean there's so many reasons why, you know, but it also makes sense to me. It just makes sense and it makes me want to be a better person, but I dove into I dove into that life and started reading everything I could, studying theology, trying to understand like is there a deeper meaning and purpose here and how does that have a real impact on my life? And for me it's about other centeredness, you know, which is not something I'd ever thought of before. You know, I was so ambitious, still so ambitious. Um still such a product of my industrial
42:18 era style education that's like, "You go be a good worker and that's what you're contributing to society, a good thing." And Right. Um to turn around and say like actually um rejecting a lot of those ideas and not making the material accumulation that we strive for the most important thing in our lives and finding ways to think about other people and give back to that is actually a more fulfilling and purposeful and eternal kind of way of thinking that um maybe I'll do that. And so Um you know, there was like altruism. a big part of it. Yeah, so there was a simplification in life like so you know, got rid of a house, sold all my fancy cars, you know, that I was accumulating and loved and um and it was less about that and more about like how can I find a way to get involved in community, involved in other people's lives in a meaningful way, impact the world through
43:05 like effective charities or you know, like just how can I changed you. Oh, yeah. I mean, is that not something Is that not something you can do forever and not I mean, you scientifically There's scientifically scientific studies have proven that that kind of altruism actually has a true meaningful impact on our state of well-being. That there is nobody who can give of themselves purely and not feel better because of it. How is that not something that can eternally rejuvenate us? Like forever and ever. Like people talk about like I wouldn't want to go to heaven cuz I would just get bored or whatever. Be so boring. It's like, "No, that idea of heaven is a is a world where everybody's giving of themselves and that cycle of of love is it's it's something that continues to fill us up as we give it away. It's this
43:52 almost paradoxical kind of Yes, it's this beautiful cycle that never ends, you know? And that feels good and you can start that now and that's what the whole message is all about, I think, you know? And Um and you weren't doing a lot of that beforehand. You weren't giving back or going to hospitals or helping out. my agents and be like, "You understand who I What is this audition for? I built an empire here, you know?" I used to say words like empire. Like I'm so ashamed now, but I would have those like thoughts What is it the delusions of grandeur and all that [ __ ] Totally. That's part of bipolar, right? Yeah. It is. But you know, um you know, I mean, when you're having the delusion of grandeur, it doesn't feel like one. It feels very possible and very real. And when you accomplish most of those, then people start to question like,
44:38 "Well, maybe is it Is it?" You know? delusion Could he actually pull that off? Like Yeah, he's going to do it here. He could. Maybe he could, you know. Inside You is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Guys, it's the new year. Magic Spoon, I love this this company. I love this product. Uh Magic Spoon is perfect for meeting your goals, whether it's eating healthier or saving more time in your morning routine. You know, as a kid, I've talked about this, but you'd love to eat the sugary cereals. I just I can name them all right now and I didn't realize how bad they were for me. But you know how bad they are the older you get, they're worse and worse for you. Your body You can't function on crap. And so Magic Spoon has made some
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46:57 this podcast. Inside You is brought to you by Wondery. How do we make the most of our time here on Earth? How do we bring meaning to our life's work? And what is the best emoji to use when texting? These are the important questions asked on the weekly interview podcast Life is Short with Justin Long. I love Justin. He's pretty awesome. Justin chats with celebrities, actors, musicians, artists, and more about how they get the most out of life. Recent guests include comedian Rob Riggle and singer Aimee Mann. He digs deep and each episode goes beyond what you'd expect to hear on an interview show. And in an all new episode, Justin talks with actor Billy Zane about his long and storied Hollywood career, which started with a small role in Back to the Future. Justin's candid interview style pulls out some unexpected stories from Billy,
47:44 from his time on set in the new comedy series MacGruber, to his villainous role in the international blockbuster Titanic, which he admits he secretly played like a comedy. And of course, you'll find out Billy Zane's favorite emoji, too. I've had Justin on the podcast and he's just a lovely person to be around. He's got great stories, a lot of inside. Um and I would recommend listening to him. Listen to Life is Short with Justin Long on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or you can listen ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. It's pretty incredible. It's incredible that you were able to overcome this because you hit rock bottom as rock bottom as someone can hit and you pulled you literally pulled yourself out of it.
48:31 Well, I would say I'm overcoming this. I mean, it's sort of like like A style, right? Like I don't think I don't think I'm ever through it, you know? And honestly, like if there's anything that still tortures me, the past tortures me not being able to modify it at all. Um but the other thing would be re- reconciling the fact that like there's a possibly a lot of a lot of years left to continue on a path that is, you know, that is fulfilling, you know? And like it seems daunting at times, you know? It seems daunting to think like, "Oh, I haven't overcome that. That's still very much a possibility or a part of me. I have to continue to overcome it day by day, you know?" Um taking those steps. You know, there's thousands of them left in front of me, you know, possibly. You
49:16 know, it's that sometimes is overwhelming, you know? what's over overwhelming me as well could be daunting is taking on a role like Jack Reacher. I mean, to get back into that a little bit. I mean, that's that's a big, you know, it's Tom Cruise big-time movie blockbuster and then they're doing a series. How many auditions did you go on? How many times did you meet with these producers for this role? Yeah, you know, there's always going to be a chip on my shoulder for this because you know, I'm also I'm just always going to feel like I have something to prove. No matter how many times you know, I just went to dinner with a lot of people involved with the show and they were like thanking me cuz the show's you know, it's not out yet. I mean we don't know when this will air but you know, when we're talking about this right now, it's not out yet but When does it come out on Amazon? February 4th. So
50:02 so it's being seen by some people media you know, industry insiders test audience and it's like everybody loves it. You know, people that have read the books, people that haven't everybody's enjoying it. So they thank you for all your hard work and what you've done and if it if you know, if you didn't work as Reacher this whole thing wouldn't work but it worked. And I you know, and I think back to my my time during the process. They passed on me the first time. And they passed on everybody the first time, you know, but you know, I've put I put a tape together, you know, I was approached about this as was probably 2000 other guys and and I you know, I put a tape together but the the sides that they gave us were probably not the most conducive to an audition cuz it was all about capturing that stoic quite you know, Reacher said nothing is something sort of famously
50:47 involved in every book. Reacher said nothing and the sides were basically Reacher said nothing. So there's like an interrogation where he's just sitting there the whole time and I was like I don't know how to play this but in my mind I was like I have you know, it's got to have some energy and so I was channeling you know, the guy from Waterworld who's like give me the paper give me the paper give me the girl give me the paper. He's trying to trade the girl paper for the girl. Give me the paper give me the paper give me the Kevin Costner is like all right, don't put the knife down. I was like trying to channel that guy that give me the paper give me the paper guy. In my mind I'm like listening you know, imagining this guy trying to just generate some inner something inner yeah and they hated it. They hated it. So they just said okay no pass. No, I went to you know, the tape went to producer got a call that you know, they you know, it was it was interesting that
51:32 the sent it to producers and then it just never went further. Like months go by and like you know, I've been doing this a long time. You hold very loosely to this stuff. Like oh love the idea that that'd be cool and then nothing happens. You're like okay this that wasn't meant that was meant for somebody else and it was sort of that. It was just like all right, I guess meant for somebody else. And then like I don't know four or five months after that I get a call that like they're thinking about the redo it you know, sort of coming circling back. Um new casting director whole new sides they're re kind of reimagining this. Wow. And so they were like I was like oh I get a second chance and so Mindy Marin who who cast who cast the show she's phenomenal casting director. She had gone back to look at the tapes after they reimagined how to approach finding this guy and looked at the tapes
52:19 that had gone to producers. So I think God they sent it to producers that time cuz I never would have been seen again. And uh She saw your tape. saw something in it. I think with some adjust you know, I think with some adjustment we could you know, get this to work. But I when I saw the new sides I was like oh this I can do. You know, and so it was probably seven or eight other auditions that just Seven or eight other auditions? There are so many cooks in the kitchen in a in a good way like not in a bad I mean there's so many people who have a vested interest in delivering something that works to the fans as they should you know, a lot of people taking this very seriously and want to make sure that they get it right and you know,
53:05 some I I only owe Mr. Cruise a debt of gratitude for the visibility that he's brought to this role but there are people who comment on the fact that he's not exactly the size that Reacher should be and that's a large character in this or it's its own kind of character in this um Cuz you're a bigger guy than Cruise. And that's true. That's true but you know, and you know, it suffices to say that he he also still carried those franchises into the hundreds of millions of dollars without that. So that's a testament to him and his his talent and craft. Right. He's incredible. But you know, a lot of fans weren't weren't happy and and so you know, there's obviously probably a level of anxiety from the executives going like we don't want to mess this up again. And so there's a lot of that energy coming coming at these these auditions
53:51 you know, a sort of a little bit of trepidation. And uh it you know, it it it kept going but it was like well now we want you to read for you know, the Amazon exec the Skydance exec this exec that exec. Were you getting frustrated? along the way. No, not at all. It was like okay as long as this is happening as long as this conversation is happening like then this is still good. You know, and it's just another opportunity for me to win somebody over. This is the job you know, I mean you know how it is like I think as soon as you get cynical I was there was a point in my life where I was like very cynical. Came off a comedy and I felt like I mean if you know, they should be throwing rolls at me. Look what I just did on this show that nobody saw. Delusions of grandeur. Delusions of grandeur and I was like frustrated that like you know, there weren't just like 50 film off you know,
54:38 It was and you know, I got very bitter for a little bit until I had this um this uh perspective shift you know, through the loss of a role but uh um you know, so it just I I was up for it. I was up for it as long as it was working and it was you know, but it was it took a lot of educating um Amazon on who I you know, who I who I am and and then there was also a lot of questions about height because this is during the pandemic. So we can't do this stuff in person. In fact they flew me out once to to test in person and uh and and I get to the hotel in LA and they're like they're going to have to take a blood sample. This is like before you know, the the swabs that we have now and they're like they're going to have to blood sample and I was like blood sample. I'm like this is serious. Like this is what
55:24 world are we living really got to bleed for your craft these days. I guess that's the world we I was fine with it. I was like all right, that's fine. Then like all right, they're talking to lawyers about it seeing you know, how that whole thing works and I guess eventually they got cold feet about taking blood to you know, to secure a test audition. Um and so I went back and we did it over Zoom. But uh you know, I wasn't seeing these people in person and that's a big part of this you know, knowing you can feel somebody's energy and their presence and see their size and that. So so there they actually had me measure myself on tape you know, like head to toe and my I couldn't you know, I couldn't do it. So I had my kids on a step stool and they're up there like measuring like strip down to your shorts and bare feet show us exactly where that tape is. We want to see how big you are. a shirt on and all that stuff.
56:09 yeah yeah. You know, so there was just it was a lot of that. It was a big process of like all this stuff. good shape at this time. Well, I was yeah, I was I walk around at like you know, if I'm not working out I run a lot and I I walk around at like 205 which is like still big for a lot of people. Right. And uh 205 I think I thought you'd be bigger than that. Well, I am now. Yeah, I'm 235. Oh okay. I was like Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's a 185 I'm like yeah, you're a lot bigger than I am. Yeah, yeah, I put I put on I put on about 30 pounds for this you know, but yeah, I wasn't at the time you know, I wasn't that big but you know, I still I'm just a large guy you know, guy. So A large man. It was just anyway but it just it it was a process
56:56 and and they were convinced that um you know, I was I guess I was the right guy. So there was a lot of there was a lot of apprehension when the the executives producers started showing up in prep when I was actually there cuz I was like now they're going to see me in person for the first time. I hope I'm big enough. And you were. And thank thank God yeah, I didn't get fired. Didn't get fired. Here's a serious question. Yeah. How honestly how demanding was the shoot? That's a good question. I mean you filmed this entire 10 episode series? You did 10 episodes for this Amazon series Jack Reacher which comes out February 4th. The demand on your body and your mind. I mean you just talked about in your mid-30s overcoming you know, deep
57:42 depression and figuring out you have bipolar getting on meds getting healthier finding purpose. You book this part I guess it's the right time because you're now on the up. What are you going through? That's a good question. Um I think I think you know, and also for anybody watching who maybe is struggling with a lot of that stuff bringing all that stuff to the light can only help. You know, I feel like we live in a world where it's you know, I'm trying to
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