0:00 My team and I were checking your frequency of posting. We saw that in 2025 you had 399,000 followers on Instagram. Within a span of one year you at one million followers and we discovered you posted like two to three videos in a day. Explain to us how did you jump from 400,000 to one million? [music] That's 600,000 within a span of one year. >> In 2017 the first event that I hosted um was a photography master class and I rented out the whole thing. Two people came. >> Two people? >> Two people. One of them was my camera guy. [laughter] I was in Abuja. Someone gave me data of the Nigerian young people and how much they're dropping out of school. Say this is a cause for alarm. What do you think? I I think that in many parts of Africa our curriculum has not been optimized to fit the realities of our dispensation
0:46 and it is painful that we keep shoving our kids into and I don't say don't send your kids to school, but I'm like can we at least acknowledge that this is not 1992 anymore? >> Hey Disrupters, this is Wolu Bengo and this is the first segment of Mike and Sol under the Disrupters Podcast. I'm so happy to host an amazing person here today. You're an amazing guest. His name is Eric, an amazing gentleman who is impacting Africa, impacting the nations and bringing us perspectives that are shaping culture on a major scale. And today we're going to have a very beautiful conversation that will focus majorly on three aspects. That's
1:33 mindset, aspect of identity and culture and how this affects nations at large. Eric welcome sir. >> Thank you so much, brother. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. >> you. Welcome to Kenya. >> Lovely to be here. >> You told me this is not your first time being here. >> Oh, I've been here a couple of times. Um it's it's a it's a quiet place. It's a little just a little slower than Lagos. So yes, it's lovely to to be here. Always a pleasure. >> When I was in Nigeria I was told that uh Nairobi is like a mini version of Nigeria. >> Nigeria or Lagos? >> Lagos especially. The people are very intense. >> The the the intensity is there. I think it's a little not a little. I I spent some time in Mombasa the last time I was in Kenya everyone's like pole pole. >> [laughter]
2:18 >> Mombasa people are a bit slow. >> Yeah. >> Nairobi people are very intense. >> it's it's quite intense. >> Do you think Nigerians and Kenyans have similarities? >> Oh, I think so. I think and I think Africans in generally share share in general share a lot of similarities. I think that we are driven people. >> Yeah. >> At the very least we are quite driven and when you are again it depends on the circle where you you find yourself. But when Africans are driven Africans are driven and we we get things done and I've seen that amongst Kenyans and I feel at home. >> Lovely. What makes Nigerians so driven? Do you believe it's an innate thing? Do you believe it's a trauma response? Or do you believe what do you think is a factor that is causing Nigerians to be that driven?
3:04 >> I think I think sometimes you find yourself in situations where you you don't have a choice. You either move or you run over. >> Mhm. >> Right? When you find yourself in situations like that where nothing is handed to you to the average Nigerian you you have to move. I think it's the it's also the fear of being um unseen, unheard, the fear of being mediocre. That's something that really gets people moving especially Nigerians. So when you look around and maybe some people from where you come from are under achieving or in your space there's not a lot of excellent people who's achieved a lot and you know the
3:51 family name doesn't mean much and name is a big deal where I come from and I think it's a big deal in many parts of the world where names can open doors. >> Yeah. >> You see yourself as um as a person that has to do a work that the people before you have not done. >> Mm. >> Right? So it's always a question of you asking yourself are you the one that we're waiting for or should we wait for another? That's that's the case. >> Interesting. Tell us more about yourself. I like allowing the guest to be able to give their also their own introduction and whatever yes. >> Okay. So I am my name is Eric. I was checking out my my name is Eric Eric Gugua. >> Yes. >> Um everywhere in the world, even in Nigeria, people murder my name. So it's Gugua. >> Yeah. >> Anyways, um I was checking out my
4:37 LinkedIn profile this morning and I haven't been on LinkedIn for a very long time and I looked at the things that I used to qualify myself when I was on there >> Yeah. >> and I think marketing specialist, blockchain expert, um life coach. I cleaned the life coach and replaced it with reformer because still the same thing, but I think my mindset around that has a bit has evolved a little a little bit. So um I'm a business person. I am or at least for a very long time I was into consultancy for some blockchain startups looking to get into West Africa. But right now I am in the people business. I and when I say business, I mean that is what occupies my attention right now.
5:22 I am working with the African young man, the Nigerian young man, the Ghanaian young man, the Kenyan young man to see how you know we can become people of more substance. And when I say substance, I'm not just referring to obviously finances alone because I mean a man's life is not measured in the abundance of things that he possesses. So let's talk about the things that possess the man. Right? That's that's that's what I'm currently preoccupied with. >> Lovely. Lovely. At what point did you transition to get to a place of understanding that you've been called for Africa? At what point did it click that well, I now need to move beyond Nigeria? >> [snorts] >> Oof. I don't think okay, so, here's the here's the balance.
6:08 >> Yeah. >> Our work in Nigeria is not it's not even like it's just getting started. >> Yes. >> We I I do not see myself as okay some people say that I've had a I've had a couple of mentors say to me oh you've conquered Nigeria and so it only makes sense that you move and I don't see it that way. I think the work is just getting started. However one of the things that inspired me to take it outside of the country is you can get to a point in your operations where you begin to think where you begin to think more highly of yourself than you ought to simply by the responses you're getting on a local scale. >> Mm. >> Right? You don't understand that your work isn't you you never gauge like your
6:54 work isn't up to >> Mm. >> it's not measuring up to the demands of its original calling. And so sometimes when you move outside of that comfort comfort zone you can see things for what they really are. >> Yeah. >> So I I don't I don't think of it as beyond Nigeria but yes I I think that as Africans though we may especially in sub-Saharan Africa we share a lot of similarities we share a lot of challenges and I think that what's good for one set of people can also apply to the other set. >> That's interesting. How many countries have you gone to in Africa? >> Okay, Kenya is my third. >> Kenya is your third country? >> my third, yes. >> So Ghana? >> So Nigeria, Ghana and now >> And and Kenya? >> Kenya, yes. >> That's interesting. What have you observed in terms of what do you think
7:41 is a need of the African young person as you've said it? >> [snorts] >> I think we have a lot of building to do. And I I'm not trying to sound you know mysterious when I say this. We have a lot of building to to do on a societal scale. >> Yeah. >> And the major problem I find with that is or I find the major obstacle to that in the mind of the African that I have encountered is there is still a lot of self-serving that's present in our minds that prevents us from advancing
8:28 um as as a people generally. I think that I was sharing in the last um conference we had last week, last weekend in BC, and my theory is this. I think that we must become we must be willing to become uh an incredibly hardworking people but a ridiculously poor people to stand any chance at redemption. And this is not to say that I'm putting forth an invitation to poverty but I'm saying on the skills of the things that we want to see born in our in our country or in our continent we must be willing to pay the price of immediate obviously immediate gratification. So if that means you're losing a gig, if that means you're losing a contract, if that means you're
9:13 losing a collaboration, if that means you're losing friends, whatever it is, however it is that poverty translates to, we must be willing to be incredibly hardworking and there must be a willingness to double at the edge of survival if we are going to stand any chance of redemption. And and I think that we we are at a point in African history where redemption is absolutely necessary. So if you ask me what one of the challenges that the young man faces or that the young African faces in their minds, I think that we've not fully come to accept um drinking water for all as opposed to champagne for a few. >> I got you. Talking about survival, what have you had to lose to get to where you've gotten? What are some of the things that if you count practically
9:58 >> Yes. >> uh have you had to lose? And also the other as you answer that question, I would like you to answer it in a compact way. And by the way, it's not an interview. So feel free to go as far as you can. >> Okay, cool. >> Like you're free. Like, go as far as you can. You can even talk for 10 minutes or 15. So, I'm not measuring the number of questions. No, no, no. We're flowing. >> No problem. >> Uh for one to become anything significant, I'm talking to you as a person who is very influential, especially with our generation and even cutting through to millennials and baby boomers. I can't limit you to the young people. I've seen you cutting across culture. And uh I've also seen you building an ecosystem quite at a young age. Now, are there things one must lose? For
10:45 example, uh might you end up, let's say, marrying late? Might you end up finishing school late? Might you be late to some degree for you to be able to break certain barriers? Maybe just dive deep into that. >> The first thing the the first thing that the person has to do, whether it's a young person or an older person um and this is non-negotiable. The first thing that the person must do is define God. And when I speak to the idea of God, I don't speak from a religious point of view, even though I myself am a religious man, purely on a philosophical front. So, that which occupies the highest
11:33 position in terms of your pursuit and you draw inspiration from. So, define that very quickly. Right? As soon as you get that out of the way, and it needs to be the first thing that you do, as soon as you get that out of the way, what happens is that definition defines what you can or cannot do. Defines the the trajectory for your struggle, for your striving. It defines every So, to to to a very large extent, it's clear what you can do or what you cannot do because you've defined God. And this is also why I find it deeply interesting when the Bible says something like for for who are conversant with Christian literature. The love of money is the root of all evil.
12:18 And obviously it's not money that's the root of all evil, it's the love of money. And when we talk about that on an ideological front, one of the things I find out is that the love of money is the spirit of desperation, right? Or the principle of desperation. And so when you enthrone that and you place that in the position of God, right? [clears throat] That's the highest point. That informs all your striving. And I see a lot of people I see a lot of people, a lot of young people do that, define God as that, whether or not they go to church, whether or not they they go to the mosque, whether they are religious or not, whether they they profess differently or not. We see that from here. You can tell from your actions what occupies the highest position in the stratification of your values.
13:04 And so when you do that, it informs your direction and then obviously it informs what you cannot cannot do because like like I was trying to point out when you place money there, what that means is or when you place something there and it's not money but it's the principle of desperation. It doesn't matter whose ox is gored. It doesn't matter what you have to do. You you do everything to make sure that that principle is satisfied. And so if it costs you if it costs you really important relationships, if it costs you friends, if it costs you your conscience, that has to go as you try to satisfy
13:50 what God is. So for example, I would speak to people a lot of the times by the time we finished our conversation in in Accra, a young lady walked walked up to me and she was she was quite in in tears. She was distraught and she was talking about how her life had taken a very serious hit and how things have gone awfully wrong for for her and it's all because of her affiliation with a young man. Then we got into talking about the young man's life and the things that he did and the things and the sources of his wealth and all all of that which were obviously the reasons that she was attracted in the first place. You would see that the people who sacrifice everything else just to get to that point, it shows up in every other area of your life and it doesn't just affect you, it
14:36 affects every everyone else. And so when we talk about what is the personal cost of your strife and the first thing is you you define God. My thoughts are all over the place but I'm trying to bring them together. So the first thing is you you you you define God and then God now determines what you sacrifice and what you don't. So starting out as an as an influencer, I I've been creating for 14 years now but when we go back to when I became an influencer, >> Mhm. >> um about three years ago, I would say some of the earliest gigs that you would get, some of the first people that will notice you, they are people [clears throat] that could bring you a presentation that is contrary to the allowances of your definition. So that's why you define it first because if you don't define it first, anything
15:22 goes. And the thing I find with human actions when it is consistent with striving towards God is it doesn't matter how horrible the human action is, anything is justifiable once it is done to the pleasure of what you have defined to be God. Anything is I've seen people justify the craziest of things and I've seen people say things like, oh if I don't do this, someone else will so why not me, right? So all these are justifications because someone has placed something in the in the position of God. So personally, I would say that definition for me has definitely cost me friends or acquaintances. It's cost me people at the very list. It's cost me um collaborations, it's cost me
16:08 contracts, it's cost me a whole lot of money. um It will cost you rooms as well. But if it is in striving to attain to that particular position, you don't count those things as losses because at least, at the very least, you have defined a direction for striving. >> Okay. >> And I would I would leave it at that. >> I I I put you in the category of people I call the 10%. The 10% are people who influence culture, people who people admire, young people want to be like. They might even dress up like you. Um in your personal life, what are some of the hardest decisions that you can share with us? Tell me the three hardest decisions you had to make
16:54 for you to get here. The ones that you can be able to count practically and don't look at it now with who you are now. Tell me primarily, maybe when you're starting, when you were still in school, what are some of the decisions that you made, the three most defining decisions that you even never made those decisions. It was a make or break. >> Yes. I wouldn't know if I can itemize them in that order. Okay, so number one, number two, number three. Um I think that I can definitely speak to one. Um and it's something that I I It's not It's not a decision I made a while ago. It's a decision I continue to make. I was doing a mentorship. I ran a mentorship in September which turned out to be in some sense
17:41 um not well timed because September was an incredibly busy busy month and so it really put a strain on me, but so that too and which which is a testament to some of these some which is which is a testament to what I'm about to talk about, you know, the ability to see something too. But what one of the things that I noted from that mentorship experience was these people came. It was called the the circle of influence and so they came. They paid quite some money to be there. And when we got talking, I made it clear from the very first um lecture that that we had, listen, you want to speak with influencers, you want to talk with a person of influence that you learn how to come to this place. That's fantastic.
18:27 This is not that kind of place. So let's address your character first before we talk about your reputation. And so we take the first five lectures and talk about what manner of person the influencer ought to be to even be able to to gather to someone and then to sustain the influence because once once the limelight comes on, there's no hiding from that. Whatever it is that has not been addressed, it burns. It burns thoroughly. Like you stand for something and all of a sudden everyone expects or not everyone, but there's a very loud minority of people who cannot wait to prove that you are not that, right? And so which was very very exemplified in what
19:12 happened last weekend in Nigerian on the Nigerian internet space where they were trying to nail me to a to a cross and all that. But then this is a decision I made and I continue to make. It's a decision to strive to embody what I am trying to put out. I continue to fall short of it and I continue to press towards it. And I I cannot say this I cannot stress this enough. I cannot stress this enough. It was as recently as last night I I spoke to my management and I'm like see, I have to I have to change my routine. I have to change some things about my routine. I can't work this much anymore. So this
19:57 is when I'm going to end my productive work. This is what I'll be doing after then. This is when I really I really shut shut down. This is when I start just some things about my routine I switched up. And the reason I was doing that was there are things that I have taught to taught people about how to structure their lives in order to be able to be more productive or at the very least not be as anxious as they used to be. Where they yeah. And sometimes when I find myself falling into those same traps of things that you've taught people. And you know what's going to help you get better, but just the tenacity not to push don't push it like literally start now start working on it right now. You can't find it either it's usually because you're disrupted by one thing or
20:43 the other. So I tell myself every every other time I say listen let's walk on the thing again. So I treat myself as my primary [snorts] student who has to be reminded every single day of the gravity of every single second of my time. That's the one thing that I believe has made the most difference in my life my ability to call myself back to the things that I not only believe but profess make sure that it is action and practice for me and my ability to to make the best use of my time and I I I do not say this in a you know in a motivational kind of work so we wake up at 3:00 a.m. and then we go to the gym and all that no. But it's I found that the one thing that has
21:29 helped me the most in my life is being conscious and intentional about getting a hold of my time early. I and I treat it like money and what I mean by I treat it like money is I've forgotten who has this quote but someone once said that a full wallet is like a full bladder. You have the urge to piss it all away. People usually start getting careful about their money when you don't finish like towards the end of the month or towards when when it's all down. Nobody or the average person is not that careful about their money when the alert comes you know when the credit just comes in and you know you look at you look at the bank and there's a a few hundred thousand there.
22:14 So I when I say I treat my time as money I treat it as money in the sense of when I wake up and it's time to get into an action. I I don't I do not want the deadline to be my motivating factor towards trying to get stuff done. >> Yeah. >> Like I absolutely try to get at it. I think that's that's the one thing that has helped me as soon as I got hold of my life in that particular aspect, I saw that it gave me a reimbursement of my will enough to be able to attribute in other areas. >> Interesting. Um I'm finding a lot of perspectives and a lot of you've insisted so much on character. >> Yes, sir. >> And and you're big on the aspect of
22:59 identity. You're not saying it, but you're still saying it. >> Yes, sir. >> Who are your mentors? >> Um I will not state publicly. >> Okay. >> I will not state publicly, but I do have a number of them. >> Okay. >> I do have a number of them. The reason I I a couple of years ago I would very, you know, some of them I still some of them I am not in as much close contact as I used to be a couple of years ago um because of my time abroad. >> Okay. >> Um some I am very close to my who I would consider my primary mentor. Um so a business person I met in in in a Christian organization called
23:45 Scripture Union. >> Mm. >> It's I think it's quite popular back in Nigeria. >> Mm. >> And we met about 10 11 years ago and this is um Dr. Victor Agunwa. Dr. Victor Agunwa, he is my primary mentor. And the thing is this and this is also what I encourage in younger people. >> Mm. >> He or she, they do not have to be popular to be effective. They do not have to be popular to be able to impact your life. They just have to have the requisite knowledge and experience to guide you through that phase and that season of your life. Because I find a lot of people trying to associate and, you know, making investing a lot of effort into trying to
24:30 be close to a person. And I'm not saying that person is not going to be helpful, >> Mhm. >> but the truth is, if if you don't know the person on a on a on a personal level and you don't have their number, you don't speak with them, you you have never had a session with them, I don't see how they're your mentor because mentorship requires proximity. >> It's relationship. >> Absolutely. Um that relationship, that that ability to correct you on a personal level. If it's not there, then they can be a teacher, right? But I I don't think it satisfies the demands of what of who a mentor is. So my mentor is not a public figure in any way. I go back home every time I'm privileged to go back home, I go back home, we sit, we talk for long. Um the other public ones I have only come into knowledge of or
25:15 made the acquaintanceship in the last couple of years, but my roots run down and it's not popular roots. >> Okay. >> Yes, sir. >> That's powerful. You're dating? >> My >> You're dating? >> No, I do not talk about my my personal life. No, no, no. As it concerns my marriage or my dating life, [clears throat] not on the internet. >> Tell us why. >> Um amongst some reasons, amongst other reasons, here's one and this is a superficial one, here's one. My brother got married March this year, April did this year. April. And it was a very popular wedding in Nigeria. My brother is an actor, right?
26:01 Back back home. And people are not kind. People are not kind. Especially when they hold you to a standard and the moral baseline is up there for you. Obviously that happens to celebrities. Um it was a small wedding. It wasn't in Nigeria. We traveled for it. We had a good time. We took pictures and all that and put it on the internet and the blogs took took the pictures and did the thing that they do best. And people were very mean. >> Mm. >> And so I think that with the kind of responses I have gotten personally, I can take it.
26:47 But I'd like to shield my family from any of that. And and like I said, this is a this is one of the most superficial reasons, but it's it's important nonetheless. >> It's very very important. >> Yes, sir. >> Very very important. At what point did you come to this realization? When you started, did you know that people are not kind or is it when it happened that's when you discovered people are not kind? >> On a theoretical level, >> Mm. >> I have always known that people are not kind. >> But now the understanding came. >> now the understanding hits you the very special way. I think it was g it was Jesus who they wanted to make king once and he said, no no no no, let's let's not do that. And the Bible records obviously because he know what's what's what's in man's heart. I've seen how you know they can say this is the best guy in the world and three days later they are calling for your crucifixion. Yes. So um
27:34 it's it's not a good enough reason to not serve people because I also think that people are the best thing in the world. And I don't I don't say it from a from I'm not trying to be to put up a front. I genuinely love people. People have done some nasty things to to me and to be fair I can't stop loving them. I do not expose myself to them again for them to hurt me in that way again. But I I can I cannot find it in me to not see the good in people. So I think that people are people are an expression of God that nothing else embodies. I I love people, but you also have to walk with the awareness that you you know there is an extension there's a there's a measure to which you extend yourself and it's tricky waters. >> Interesting. >> so yeah. >> Do do you think you trigger people?
28:22 >> Well, of course I trigger people. Of course I do. >> How do you handle being in rooms with people who are older than you and they have to listen to you uh and there are people who might be angry. This what is this young person saying? So how how do you how do you handle that? And is it even a challenge you've ever faced? >> Um it used it's not that much of a challenge anymore, but it used to be. So I was I've been a teacher a while and I've been a teacher in Christian circles a long time. >> Mhm. What do you mean by a teacher? Like a classroom teacher? >> No no no. Like I [snorts] teach. And what I mean by that is I've had the opportunity to teach the word to young people for a long time. >> Okay. >> And obviously in obscurity and I'm fine
29:07 with that. It's not a I think in some ways I prefer that. But during my time obviously anyone who's been a youth pastor or you've occupied any of those positions, sometimes you're called to teach in other circles where they where it's not just the younger people. It's the older people that that there as well. And you have these thoughts that are different, thoughts about scripture, maybe a new light that you or a light that you received, a new perspective on something, revelation. And then if your setting is as ultra conservative as mine, um you're you're bound to get some heat for that. So that's why that's what I mean when when I say it used to be an issue for me. How do I handle that? With all
29:53 humility. I think there is a way that people who have been gifted by God um who feel and sense that there's an anointing on on their heads, but they are still under some measure of authority, there is a way that they ought to conduct themselves while still in those systems. It's really important. Um but right now it's not much of a challenge for me. The reason is most times when I'm speaking I'm speaking to people within my community. So it's already a gathering of like minds, right? It's already a gathering of people. I mean in Ghana we had close close to 3,000 people and just one person hadn't heard of me before in that hall. So it's usually people from my community that Yes, so they already know what to expect and and and all that. So it's not much
30:39 of an issue for me right now, except I get an external invitation and that could that could be that. >> Would you put yourself in the category of a celebrity? >> [snorts] >> Do I think of myself as a celebrity? No. Do I think that some people think of me as someone to be celebrated? Yes. And it's deeply humbling. But at some point you have to because there is there's harm in delusion. There's a lot of harm in delusion. So and when I when I speak to delusion, I'm talking about this you are trying to be so humble
31:26 and you don't recognize your place. There's a lot of harm in that because you put yourself in positions you're not supposed to be in. So for example, >> So it's both extremes. >> Yes. So in as much as I don't feel like I am a celebrity, there's a consciousness with which I now have to move with. For example, I don't go out on my own, right? A couple of times I have met people who strongly disagreed with me, one female, one one male, and they were they were they were people that I had to negotiate my way out of that situation because it was about to get nasty, right? And do I think I'm a celebrity? No, but when I go to events, I have to go with security, at least in some places, right? Because you are humble, you are
32:12 humble, you're humble, and it's great to be humble, but there's there's harm in delusion. If you expose yourself to certain things, you will get bit. There's certain places where I don't go to unattended. I don't take as much strolls as I I would love to. I don't Nigerians would say go out and touch grass as much as I would love to. So I in public spaces, public vehicles and and all that because I really just love to do that for the fun of it, just go out and experience p- p- people. Um, not so much. So, in my mind, I am not, but I have to reconcile that with reality. And that's proved very wise and helpful for me. >> Interesting. The first day you you you you you pressed the camera,
32:58 did it come out of intuition? Did it come out of Do you think you've gotten here out of luck, out of effort? I know all those things are collaborative, >> Yeah. >> but what is what do you think comes stops? Is it the aspect to have the discernment to say, well, it's my season, the same way that God wants me to speak about, or did you study people? What would you say was the peak that made you say, okay, press the camera, go set here I am? >> So the interesting thing about my journey is I was creating content 11 years before I started gaining any traction. >> Okay. >> And I was going to create it for the next 20. >> Okay. >> All right. My like like I mentioned, I don't mind obscurity. I don't mind working with very small groups. I have I
33:44 I As a matter of fact, this the the the events that I'm doing in in Kenya right now, beyond conversation, was never meant to be a physical event. It was meant to be virtual. That's how much I love my my SP. So I I I defined God for myself. I have I have determined what is worth being said, and I am saying it, right? The consequence of that has been and make no mistake, I am not saying I never wanted fame or popularity because that's that's something that I need to address as well. When I started creating content, I was broke. I wanted money. I started creating content. Like you say, the first time I turned on the camera, I wanted to be pop- popular. But that guy is not the same guy as this this guy because I wanted to be popular and I created
34:31 content a long time and it wasn't happening and I kept at it because at some point that motivation gave way to what to the operating system I'm currently running running on. So, um if there's any one thing that's brought me here, I would think it's the fact that at some point I became ridiculously unobsessed with the limelight and just wanted to do the thing. Um I I there is no way I would have done it long enough and gave myself to evolve [snorts] because there's also the there's also the part of creativity, right? It's not just if you do the wrong thing or the ineffective thing, it doesn't matter how long you do it, you're not going to experience any success. So I gave myself to evolving, gave myself to understanding how um the
35:17 spaces where I'm posting works and all those things I think came together to bring me here. But if there's any one thing, I would say that I was thoroughly convinced in my mind and I was never going to stop. That's it. I was going to I was going to get it right or I was going to die in the in the attempt to. >> Interesting. The transition from you being a photographer, videographer, blockchain, getting into the world of speaking, influencing uh things to do with tech, culture faith and now you moving to different countries. That ability to say yes, I might be a good photographer, but let me be a videographer. Might be a good videographer, but let me get into blockchain. The ability to say all these aspects are
36:03 important and I'm not leaving any. Is it a thing of discipline? Is it a thing of what is that? The ability to say my yesterday is good, but I'm still disconnecting with it. What has helped you to be to stay at it? >> I'm a firm believer in or I firmly disagree with the idea of you see a child who's seven eight and then you ask them what do you want to be when you grow up? And I I firmly disagree with that. I think that on average people people and yeah and this is this is not the the exceptions to disrupt, but it's my perspective that your your adventure in a particular field has a shelf life of about 11 years eight to 11 years.
36:48 >> Mhm. >> This is my perspective. It is not truth. It is my perspective and I am still exploring that. However, and the data so so suggests that So, um I think that I am on the lookout for the places that I could possibly blossom. And so the things that I do are things that I deeply love. I have never done anything that I did not love. >> Mhm. >> My my photography led to my filmmaking 100% and after I made films for a while it was I actually had to turn down a new movie that we were about to make to go pursue a degree in in blockchain because that was what had my heart at the time. I and I believe that it's so central not just to the future but
37:34 to Africa's relevance in that future if we can see it early enough because the clock is very quickly winding down. Anyway, so um I give myself to to seeing how many fields as many fields as I can blossom and that has led me into all of these spaces. So so in a manner of speaking I am attentive to the dictations of my journey. I think it's a person and I try as much as possible to listen to what it's saying or to what he's saying um per time. I have not I have not actively gone looking. I may in the future but it's not been my thing. I think I have been listening and I have been following where the instruction comes. Have I felt that some things absolutely right? A couple of businesses I have tried I've tried out
38:21 my hands at even before any any of this and even during this have not done well, right? And we close that. We focus on other other things. And so it's for me it's been a journey of sensitivity knowing what the season demands and giving yourself to at the very least explore that. The regrets I want to have are the regrets that I um are not the regrets of what I should have. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't want to have that. >> And maybe it did not work. >> Absolutely. >> Interesting. You said you wanted to make money when you started doing this thing. Have you made money? >> I I I still want to make money, but that's not the that's not the driving force. Have I made money? Absolutely not. I do not consider myself to be a rich person. I consider myself to be blessed.
39:08 I consider myself to be well taken care of. But on the skill and I obviously that's that's the thing with some people. If at any point you think that you've made money, you probably have very little of it. And why I say that is the richest people in this world um are still very driven to break new fronts to you know obviously and for some of that they need loans to get that done. I used to think at a certain point in my life that I had money and I had quite some money. I used to think that that's the truth. But right now I know I don't because when the vision comes up you realize that the money can take care of it and then you're poor, right? And
39:54 the the funny thing is I think I I have more now than I did when I thought I had money. Right? So that's that's the very interesting thing about this idea of money. Um the things that we need to do for example we need to go to Cameroon. We need to go we need to be in Senegal. There are a couple of things that we need to do outside of this tour, right? These things and their partners that we are rejecting, the other partners that we are caught and why are we rejecting some? Obviously our definition of God and so we are hoping to get these other partnerships um that have not materialized yet. And so we we need to go to campuses. >> Interesting. >> We need and when we go to campuses we can't ticket campuses, right? We it has to be free and it has to be paid for. >> Yeah. >> And it costs a lot of money.
40:40 >> Yeah. >> Right? So so so we don't have I don't have money, but I will I think I will. We'll see. >> What weaknesses have you had to conquer personal weaknesses to be here? >> I think I'm a bag of weaknesses. I don't think there's any weakness known to man that I have not I have not I have that has not beset me. Um I think I'm an incredibly lazy person. >> Mm. >> I think so. And so every day I have to wake up with the consciousness and push myself to you're being lazy again. I think that I'm an incredibly distracted person. I think that I am not I am not careful with my associations
41:26 and my friendships. I think that I am a little more careless with my spending than I should be. And because of all of these things some I have to remind myself, catch myself in the process of and remind myself, and others I have to set systems around me that ensure that even when I feel like that I cannot indulge them because of these systems. So I do not I do not consider myself and that's I think that has formed the core of my presentation. I do not consider myself to be one who has gotten it right on any level. But I consider myself as one person who
42:13 is very invested in getting back up. That's it. There's there is no day where I don't fall, right? And that's the story of my journey. >> Interesting. Do you play? >> Play? >> Yes. Do you play games? >> Oh, yes, I do. >> How often? >> As often as I can. >> Which games do you play? >> Oh, I just play FIFA. >> FIFA? >> Just FIFA. >> Mm. >> I travel to play FIFA. I could go to eat every Sunday I drive two hours to play FIFA. >> Just go play FIFA. >> Just but but it's also a time of bonding with with my fam with my family as well who live on the other side of town. So so to I make it a point of because, you know um getting into adult adulthood, um [snorts] one of the things you can't you
42:58 don't know is where, especially as an African, >> Mm. >> um is how much time you have with your family. You You don't do that. And so you try to make the most of what of the time that you have. So I've done crazy I've I've done crazy things to go and play. >> Which question do you think Which question do you wish I would have asked that I've not asked? >> I don't think there is one, but I think that if there is anything I would want to ask a question >> Yeah. >> what is if there is any one thing I should know about interfacing with
43:46 a guy >> Mm. >> or a young woman in Nairobi, what is it? And that's one part of it. Uh I'll keep the >> Kenyans are very Kenyans are very very direct. >> Okay. >> Very direct, and they also love vulnerability more than anything. Yes, vulnerability. When I was interviewing you, if there's a question I asked you when I've asked you the weaknesses that you've had to conquer, >> Yes. >> I saw the room changing immediately. >> Mm. >> We've been having the conversation, but when I asked you that, you know, in this room I have so many people with different personalities. >> Yeah. >> So and all of them are very very very extreme.
44:32 So I'm I'm especially measuring how you're talking and how the crowd is responding by one of my mentees. Uh she's called Jael. So I'm seeing there are some questions when I have a conversation with she switches off. Then there are questions when I ask she becomes alert. So I'm looking at how everyone is behaving and it's also giving me feedback immediately. So vulnerability is what Kenya's value Ken Ken value most. Vulnerability. They they hit anything that looks performative. They love vulnerability. They love people who are raw. One of the reasons why people follow you in Kenya is because you're very vulnerable, you're very real. You go down the stage, you hug the crowd, you laugh with people. So those are the things that win people. So know that at the back of your mind, they love people
45:19 who are vulnerable and highly authentic. They hit anything that's performative. It's a big deal here. >> Okay. And if I had a second question, >> Yes. >> it would be I would return a question you asked. >> Yes, yes. >> I would return it. And the question is not the top three, but one. What would you say is the biggest change you had to make to get here? >> School. School. I joined Daystar in first year in campus. And uh that's when I had released my first book and that's when I had started the organization.
46:04 And I had to make a choice between school or vision. And I had to sacrifice school. So I did not leave leave school immediately, but I had to defer for two years. >> Oh. >> So it's costed me later. So now I'm still in school. I'll be finishing next year. So I had to sacrifice school for two years and focus on building the vision because that season had also come. And I need us to understand that the African education system has not been shaped for destiny. It has been shaped for survival. >> Yeah. >> So because it's been shaped for survival, that means for you to complete school and to follow the pattern, you have to survive. >> Yes. >> Yeah. But now if you're meant to push above culture,
46:50 if you're meant to live Romans 12:2, do not conform to the patterns of this world. Patterns, one of it You know, when you're talking about patterns of this as Christians, mostly we talk about bad things, but there can be good patterns that are not Godly. >> helpful, yes. >> Yes. For example, saying that until your elder brother succeeds, that's when you now succeed. Or saying that until your elder sister marries, that's when you'll get into marriage. So that's that's a good pattern, but it's not the God pattern. >> it's not. >> So I've had to overcome a lot of good patterns, things that seemed right. For example, there are times when I've wanted to release a video and my mentors don't agree with it. They're like, it will offend someone. But what I've come to understand is that greatness in itself is very offensive. To become great, you must offend. >> I agree. >> You'll you'll not just please everyone.
47:35 You must be offensive. Jesus offended a lot of people. Martin Luther King offended. Even if you're a good person, even Mother Teresa, the person who was the kindest, still offended some people. So I've come to realize that that is so I had to sacrifice a lot in terms of school, leave the school where I was in, transfer they have another campus in the city, come back to the city, which meant that I had to pay school fees for myself. So at some point I had to negotiate with my parents and tell them if you allow me to go to this school, I'll work extremely hard to ensure that I can pay school fees for myself. And they graciously allowed me to do that. So I've had to lose a lot. Two, I've had to lose a part of maybe being young for some time. Of course, now now I can take myself on a vacation. I can now even enjoy quality
48:22 enjoyment. I don't think that was even quality enjoyment. So I had to lose the the fleeting enjoyment for some time and and build something, then I'll come back later. So that is also something that I can say I've had to lose what it means to be a cool young person. You know, you shave like a cool young person, look like a cool young person, operate on a schedule like a cool young person. There's a time where I I I was telling my friend, I envy people who are not in purpose because because they are very okay. But they are not disturbed. Yes. >> feels like freedom. >> It feels like freedom because, you know, that person doesn't have to to to wake up very early, does not have to pay people salaries, that person has no responsibility. It's an easy life. I was telling my friend
49:09 I I still don't Yes, I envy this person, but there's a kind of power this person will never have. They'll never know what it means to walk into a a country anytime and see the people you need to see. They will never know what it means to live an impactful life and a life that counts. So it's a it's a it's an extreme, but I can say no regrets at all. One has to lose something. There's a part where you have to lose something. If you're to become especially great, I don't mean the normal success where it's about you, but great to a level where you can carry many people at once. There's a part where you have to lose it. And that's what I admire you for because I know genuine greatness when I see it. So when I saw whatever you've been doing, I I study you a lot. You are a template to many young people in Africa. I consider you a person whose
49:54 schools will study. So I believe that there's something that one has to lose. That's why I was keen on this interview. This interview, by the way, is not even for the viewers. It's for me. That's why I'm looking in this much. I'm asking you very intentional questions. >> When you when you speak when you said we're going to speak for 40 minutes, I was like, 40 I don't think we're going to speak for 40 minutes, but it's okay cuz when you [laughter] begin to speak, it unlocks so much in my mind, right? could just keep going, but I will just cuz when you say school, I remember I remember school, right? [laughter] I think the biggest and just to mention very briefly, I think the the single biggest if I were to talk about the single biggest thing that builds my ability to say no
50:41 as a person to the seductions of this world had to be school cuz I finished I was done with school 2015. I was supposed to be done with school 2015. But there was one course, right, that held me back. And the lecturer guy said there's something we call sorting in Nigeria. So you have to pay in order for for for the result to come out and all that. [snorts] I didn't believe I could say no to that. I did not I did not believe I could say no to that. And I said no to that for five years. So I finished in 2020. Right? When all of your friends have gone for the national service and and and all that and everybody you come to church and then the mommies keep asking
51:27 you where where are you now? Have you have you [laughter] graduated? Cuz they they do ask. I don't know why they ask but they do ask. And so you have to keep coming up with different things to to say cuz you don't want to enter into the thick of the conversation. And you know, it's very interesting. It's very interesting. But yeah. >> Do you think we need to redefine the idea of school in Africa? >> I think so. I cannot that's a whole conversation right there. It's a whole conversation. I was in Abuja the week before last. And someone asked me someone gave me data of the Nigerian young people and how much they're dropping out of school. And said this is a cause for alarm and all though that and all that. And what do you
52:12 think, Eric? And I said that's fantastic. Right? Not because I belong to the school of thought that believe that school is a scam or that education is unnecessary. But I I think that in many parts of Africa our curriculum has not been optimized to to fit the realities of our dispensation at the now. >> Yeah. >> And it is painful that we keep shoving our kids into and I don't say don't send your kids to school but I'm like can we at least acknowledge that this is not 1992 anymore? >> Yeah. >> Right? The world is vastly different. With the they are a thousand I enrolled for my masters in blockchain at 29 and I stepped into that class.
52:57 The teacher was teaching and the and the and the people were less were less listening. And And were tears in my eyes because I realized that I had never been to school. I had never been to school until I was almost 30. That was the first time that I was getting an education that was relevant to the trajectory of my life. >> want to do. Do you think people are schools? For example, do you think you are a school? >> I think there's a lot to learn from people. >> So so do you think we should now get to a place where schools are no longer institutions, but men can also be schools? >> We've always been there. We've just failed to realize it and institutionalize it. >> Okay. >> For example, >> Mhm. >> Jordan Peterson, >> Yeah. >> right, who has this I think he has the Peterson Academy, >> Yes.
53:42 >> right, and offers a wide range of courses there. I think there's an example of of a man >> Who is a school. >> institutionalizing, right? And I think that there's a bunch of other people, especially in Africa, who have stuff to offer that's relevant to the direction of the young person. But where where we are. >> How how are you institutionalizing your gift? >> Let's not talk about it, right? >> [laughter] >> Interesting. Interesting. We'll have that conversation. >> Absolutely. >> But I'm so happy to host you here, and I'm happy that you're my first guest >> Ooh. >> for the Disruptors podcast. >> [laughter] >> I am thrilled. >> You're you're my first guest. I've been wanting to shoot this thing for the last one year, but I've not been able to.
54:29 Every time I want to do it, I keep postponing. >> Mhm. >> But I understood that there's something that needs to be done. And for whatever you represent, I believe that you being the first guest for the Disruptors podcast, specifically this segment is called Mike and Soul. So we've discussed a lot about mindset. We've we've not mentioned it, but we've discussed it. There's an aspect of identity we've mentioned. There's an aspect of culture. I've enjoyed the conversation. And maybe just to ask uh two more questions and then we'll wrap up. >> Okay. >> Uh which question have I asked you that has made you think deeply? >> It's It's just about thinking deeply. It's about it is I'm still thinking about it right now. >> Mm. >> Because sometimes you don't know what's going on with you until someone just brings you out into the open.
55:15 >> Yeah. >> And I think that's that's the question that I I returned to you to you to you as well. The one thing >> Yeah. >> that the change, right? The one thing you tweaked about you without which you wouldn't be here. I think that that invited me to thought. >> I get you. I get you. Last, which was the most defining moment in your life? Most defining. I'll give you mine and then so that also maybe it can also give you a cue. >> Go on. >> At 13, a teacher gave me an opportunity to represent the school in public speaking. Uh and that's a moment I was given a paper that was written that I should give a speech on if I become the president of Kenya, what will I do? That speech right there is what I'm living today.
56:02 So one of my uh dreams is to become the president of Kenya in 2042. That's 15 years from now. So that was a defining moment. It shaped me up till date. Then in high school, there was another moment, but this one was the most defining. When I went to high school, I was given an opportunity to speak before all the students and the school principal gave me 5,000. That was another defining moment that really, you know, shaped a lot. Then uh releasing a book at 18 at 19, also that was a defining moment, but meeting Vusi at 19 still was a defining moment. So which was your most defining moment? >> I would Two immediately come to mind.
56:49 The first will be 2017, the first event that I hosted um was a photography master class and I rented a whole the whole thing everything and two people came. >> Mm. Two people? >> Two people came. One of them was my camera guy. [laughter] So it brought me in touch with failure in a very [laughter] I've never >> You're not failing >> Oh, lord. And and people would people would gas you up. Say, launch that thing. I will be the first subscriber. [laughter] It that I've introduced me so much to people,
57:34 right? And [laughter] I also realized that your biggest your biggest supporters >> Yeah. >> are most likely to be outsiders. >> Yeah. >> I most likely you've never it's possible that you're yet to meet your biggest your biggest supporters. Yeah. I questioned myself on an existential level after that event. And the funny thing is it it wasn't a one-day event. It was a three-day event. >> Interesting. >> So, every day I come knowing that I'm going to meet one with one one one one person. And I And I poured out my heart to that one person. [laughter] Right. So, that that will be one. And the [clears throat] second one I had I had I had let me just leave it at an as an issue. >> Yeah. >> Right? I had a very serious crisis, a
58:21 very serious housing crisis while I was abroad. But it wasn't just a housing crisis. It was also there were also legal implications to it. >> Mhm. >> And I have never been that alone and that helpless in my life. So, as someone who preaches and teaches, there are many things that you can preach and you can teach and you can know on some levels, but until you come in direct contact >> Terms with it. >> you don't know you don't know that you don't know it. And so I have I had never been that helpless. If I were back in Nigeria, if I were back at home, um maybe I would have had some kind of help. But I have never depended on God as absolutely as I did >> I hear you.
59:07 >> in that moment. >> You've been rejected before? Have you ever been rejected in your life? >> It's a it's a >> it's regular occurrence. It's a normal thing. >> How do you handle rejection? >> Um, sometimes and I think you have to be sensitive about it. Some sometimes you you just put yourself back together and try again with the same place that you got rejected. Depends on the kind of rejection. Other times you give yourself time cry. Cry soak soak it in. You're human. It's absolutely fine. >> Yeah. >> Um, don't take too long though. Don't take too too too long and I think like I mentioned to to you, one of the most important things about me is that I know how to get back up. >> Hey. >> That's just the the pain of rejection. I think it's three things.
59:52 Um, the first is there's the pain of rejection, there's the bottom of repetition, and then there is the I think I think it's the sting of feedback some some some something like that. It's three things that I have tried to become very conversant with. >> Okay. >> You reject me, that's absolutely fine. Um, trying to get very used to repetition because I don't think that any kind of success can come without at least the mastery that comes from repetition. And criticism I have become very well >> Criticized. >> Oh, [snorts] it's a lot. I don't know if you came across what happened in what what >> But you not see it. There's another thing I realized. When people are trolling you in your country, other people don't know. So that's another thing I realized that sometimes
1:00:37 you can be trolled here like now in Kenya, I've been trolled the past three weeks four times back to back. But then when I meet people in other countries, they're like, wow, man, you're such an amazing guy. So you're like, don't they know what is happening? So life is so funny that you can be trolled in Kenya or you can be trolled in Nigeria. But when you come to this other side, >> Absolutely >> people are so okay with you and they're like, man, we are being blessed. So I've realized there are two realities. So I decided to focus on the other reality because I discovered the people trolling you can be so loud that it can feel like the whole world is actually but in real sense, it's not really the case. >> a it's it's minority. I think after my event last week >> Yeah. >> in Benin. >> Yeah. >> So I was trying to illustrate where we part of the conversation we were having was we talk we were talking about
1:01:25 Dietrich Bonhoeffer's philosophy on stupidity. So the three elements of it. We're talking about conformity. One of the things that I was lamenting about was how the reward system on social media is now informing the niches that people choose because people will choose what is rewarded. And in order to do that I gave an illustration. I was like we all know we all know what to do to go viral, yeah? Okay, you you guys don't know. So I said let me show them. And so I walked up to someone in the crowd and we had I educated them on how the conversation was going to go, how the exchange was going to go. Then I said and the cameras rolled and I was like you, shut up. You've been making noise here and all that. And the girl the girl says who are you to tell don't me to shut to shut shut up. I said this is my event. I can tell you to shut up. And then she says I paid for the ticket. And then I say how much is your ticket? The
1:02:10 ticket's is cheap. Why are you insult And then she And I said that's how small girls behave. And then she says now you be small man. And the whole crowd erupted. So somebody recorded that >> that part that cut it >> and put it on the internet. Right? I was still teaching because my event ended at ended around six. I was still teaching [laughter] while I was I didn't know >> that you were being cooked. >> I had some celebrity friends call me because I was tired. So after every event I stand and I take pictures individual pictures with everybody who wants one. So sometimes I take 1,200. Sometimes I take a 1,000 pictures. It's very stressful, but I do it. I love to meet people. So by the time I was done with that I was getting home out. So someone called called me. And just for for their privacy I
1:02:56 wouldn't I was like that they saw what happened at my event that I should not Please, I should not make any video to explain what happened. I should just let it go that they know I acted in the heat of the moment and all that. I should just let it go. So I go online so people start calling me and I go online it was a mess. And here's the thing about that kind of criticism. It to you the people who've always been waiting for you to stop. >> So they hit you. >> Cuz the conversation is not about oh what you did was wrong. >> Yes. >> It's always about oh we always knew >> This is who you are. Exactly. >> So they they niche it, right? They just box it somewhere and the >> and then they look for backing. Last week I went to a certain event and prayed for a girl. >> Yeah. >> And then you see when you pray for a
1:03:41 person you don't decide how they will act. >> Yes. >> So I was praying for her she was she was trembling and all that. So someone so this girl posted to say that oh you know Benny prayed for me and it was so powerful. And there and now people started saying we knew it. This guy is a sharp boy. Here in Kenya they call Yahoo boys sharp boys. >> boy. Oh okay. >> So so this guy is a sharp boy. They say this guy is escaping farming by all means. So they say he's now prophet. Now now he's a prophet. He's he's he's I mean politics. So this guy is now a secretary general. Now he's a prophet. The other day he was a speaker. Now he's advising people. So this guy will show us things. He's escaping farming by all means. I see. So so so so [laughter] >> Escaping farming is wild. >> Yeah so so so here anyone who is trying a shortcut in life they say you're
1:04:27 escaping farming. You're escaping farming by all by all [laughter] means. So >> This is a very funny reference though. >> Yeah they say they say the guy bro he's escaping farming. So so so but I went to check the comments. Most of the people who are who are there trolling me are Christians. >> Yeah. >> And are people who have either even texted me to mentor them but do not either respond. So now they have gotten ground of a place to hit and say we knew it. We knew this guy. And and and that's why and they say and you see he's he's he's looking for people who are naive, especially women. So so all those things that I was looking at those comments and they said well okay. The other day I was announced as secretary general. It's a position that is big in a political party. And my age was written when I was my age was published. >> Yeah. >> That this guy is 24.
1:05:13 And all of a sudden in the on Nairobi Gossip Club which is the biggest like blog in Kenya everyone was on the comment section No, he's not 24, he's 42. And and you're seeing people who are there, people who went with you in school. Someone who was your deskmate is also there laughing instead of actually saying, guys, it's true this guy is 24. So I also realized that there's there's subtle envy that can look like someone is your fan and even follow you. Sometimes I check the people who are trolling me are people who follow me. So that's a fan who admires you, but because they couldn't get to you or they couldn't become like you, they get an opportunity or a platform to now show their envy in its entirety. So I've discovered there's a place where you can have subtle people who hate you. It they can look like your friends or
1:05:59 even people who follow you. And there are some celebrities who are now going behind the scenes and telling people, yes, hit on him. So I've discovered people are very interesting during this period that that that that people can look like they follow you, they can look like they admire you, but it's just that they've
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