Why pray to the SAINTS? Why not just pray to JESUS? Sam Shamoun

0:00 by the way you'd be a good tap dancer so let me ask the question again okay is the Catholic Church a false Church yes or no can you define false church that it preaches a false gospel and that Jesus will destroy it when he comes even though there may be people who are saved in spite of the Catholic Church be up front because you just basically that's what you believe but you're trying to be politically correct be honest so I believe that the fundamentals of the faith which is the gospel that Jesus died for your sin if that when you put your trust TR in him he will forgive you and restore your relationship with God I do believe that that is a core doctrine of notice you didn't answer the question again consider them them Derk listen what you're doing you're giving me autobiography I don't

0:45 care what you think you didn't answer the question again I'm gonna ask it a third time don't waste our time because time is precious and I'm running out of time this is the third time you didn't answer the question let me try to ask you so you've been doing the tap dance because you're scared and remember cowards do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven you know that right that's in Revelation open up your Bible read Revelation 22:15 so you're being a coward I'm not trying to be a coward okay then why don't you be upfront what you believe Revelation 22:15 read it for me okay uh 22:15 [Music] there and you're singing on top of that as if it's a joke I like that yeah

1:30 go no I just sing that's no actually you can't don't give up your J job go ahead Revelation 2215 Revelation 2215 outside are the dogs the sorcerers oh there's that word dog again huh yep the sexually immoral persons the murderers the idolators and everyone who loves and practices line okay so notice dogs I want you to read that part because of the dog part oh ouch John how could you call someone a dog now read Revelation 218 218 okay but for the cowardly and unbelieving and abdominal or abominal and murderers and sexually immoral persons and Sorcerers and idolators and all liars their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone which

2:17 where will the cowards be the the cowards will be in the lake and fire Brimstone so so don't be a coward now let me ask the question a fourth time buddy because we're wasting time here you're you're dragging the conversation do you believe the Catholic church is a false church I really don't okay I mean not not in that sense no okay so you do believe you can go to the Catholic church and be saved and ask the intercession of the Saints and the Blessed Mother and venerate icons and statues without this being idolatry and therefore it's a true church okay when you put it like that I don't believe that you can venerate other people in the position where they'll inter so now ask let me ask you the fifth time then do you believe the

3:04 Catholic church is a false church because it teaches all what I just said okay then yes and in your in your definition of that yes all right so now how old are you just because I'm GNA show you that your youth is your your downfall how old are you 25 okay 25 so as a 25y old you've sat in Judgment of nearly 2,000 years of tradition because somehow the Bible was more clear to you at the age of 25 than all these Giants of the faith for the past 2,000 years so you're telling me venerating let's say an image is idolatry uh by venerating is like a like a hot word meaning to that when you have an image you honor it because of what

3:51 the image represents okay then in that regard no because like I could have a picture of my family and say that this is special to me so then when the Catholics venerate let's say statues or the Orthodox icons of the Blessed Mother or Apostles that's veneration because those icons those statues represent individuals glorified in the presence of Christ so now you change your position that means that they are not idolatry right they're not idolatrous well I was thinking you were saying that veneration meant like they worship them like they pray to them okay now notice what you said regard them as you're saying if someone asks Mary in heaven to pray for them you're saying

4:36 that is idolatry yes I I think that's waste of time I think wait wait I don't care what you think prove it show me in scripture what you just said okay notice what you said before you try to show me scripture wait listen because you're not going to refute me if you listen you just said or you agreed to what I said asking someone to pray for you in heaven is idolatry give me the verse that says that I I I would I I want to inflect this question and say that you that there's no verse saying that you should do that no sir you don't shift the burn on me because I will bury you in verses in a minute I promise you I have the verses but this is a good Muslim tactic

5:22 where when someone makes an assertion they can't prove it so they shift the burden on the other person you're the one who says asking people in heaven who are glorified or angels in heaven to pray for you is idolatry you can't make an assertion if you follow solos scriptura because then you're gonna have to Pro prove it from the scriptura the Bible now since you made the assertion give me the verse please do do you want to go first and give me a verse no no you made the assertion dude I've done sessions on communion of saints I have done sessions on communion of saints showing biblically its biblical Foundation because I was like like you young like you who thought I knew more than I did until the Lord in his Mercy humbled me and I changed but can you show me that verse I'm still waiting can you yes or

6:09 no I'm I'm gonna take you to whenever Jesus was teaching people how to pray you're gonna embarrass yourself because there Jesus didn't say to pray to him so do you pray to Jesus I pray to God so is Jesus God or you don't pray to him because he's not okay so now hold on the prayer that you're going to point to because see again you're young and arrogant but may the Lord grant you Grace to be humble the prayer you're going to point to Matthew 69-13 and Luke 11:14 when Jesus says this is how you pray he doesn't mention praying to him or the holy spirit so if I go by just that prayer you are an idolator and a blasphemer because you'll go beyond the words of Jesus can you show me in that prayer where Jesus says when you pray say our father who are in heaven and the Son and the Holy

6:55 Spirit so that's the that's the thing about the Trinity is that I believe in saying I don't care what you believe about the Trinity the prayer that Jesus Derek the prayer that Jesus gave you doesn't include praying to him the son or the spirit you're using this to prove that I can't ask someone in heaven to pray for me that proves too much that means you shouldn't even pray to Jesus if we go by that prayer listen to the argument because you're not refuting me okay so do you pray to Jesus yes show me in the words of Jesus that you said you're going to go to to try to refute my question where he says pray to me so I could go you said words of Jesus but no no I didn't say words of you Dar I'm about to hang up on you

7:40 because you're twisting my words like a good Muslim the words of Jesus that you pointed to the Lord's Prayer Matthew 69-13 Luke 1114 show me those words that you pointed to where he says pray to me so in in that in that prayer I see what you're saying there's no specific in verse n it says pray to pray then in this way Our Father who is in heaven you know that's the Muslim argument you make a good Muslim because you know why the Muslims use Jesus's words to show that you're an idolator for praying to Jesus because Jesus said pray to the father alone the Muslims use that very passage to condemn you as a Blasphemous idolor see why you're inconsistent and I said

8:25 you make a good Muslim well I I also I believe in the rest of scripture tooing D D D D D D D D D D D D D ding ding ding so now you had to leave this argument and go to the rest of scripture to make your case so that won't make your case I'm still waiting for the verse well so okay let me let me explain why I went to this so this is this is Jesus teaching us the fundamentals of how to pray no that's not true because Jesus also taught a lot more about prayer not just in Matthew 6 or Luke 11 so let me repeat my question because you're doing the tap dance and don't waste my time I'm asking for the verse show me the verse in the scripture where it says if I ask an angel or

9:12 glorified sat in heaven to pray for me I'm committing idolatry I'm still waiting I I feel like that's a that's illogical to ask for something like that don't ever say don't ever say something is not biblical when you don't have biblical support to back it up well so that that's the thing is that like if I was talking about like there was a a dog in a building right don't give me analogies because your analogies are going to backfire give me scripture you're so a scriptura why are you giving me an give me scripture I will turn your analogies against you scripture scripture the scripture that I'm saying is that got five minutes to make your case us to pray to the father oh so but that

9:58 means you shouldn't pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit just can I let me let me finish I I'll make this super duper quick and I I won't let's see because you're not making a case you're wasting my time but go ahead okay um Jesus asks us or tells us to pray to the father in Acts and other places no where does he say pray to the father praying in Jesus name so they're praying to Jesus friend that means acts contradicts the words of Jesus because Jesus didn't say pray in my name in Matthew 6 or Luke 11 it's kind of like giving someone permission like d you're not listening to me Jesus given I'm about to hang up and you're not listening to me by going to acts showing me what the disciples do all you're doing is creating a contradiction because if I just go with Jesus's words in Matthew 6 and Luke 11 he didn't say pray in my

10:44 name there are places where he does say pray in my name okay so can we now abandon abandon the argument that you made which now imploded in your face that we go to Jesus well well let me make my case let's abandon this argument because if we take the totality of scripture which is what you're doing now then in the totality of scripture Jesus's instruction to his disciples to say our father in Heaven is not the final word or the only way we pray so don't use that so now I'm going to now ask you from the totality of scripture not just those select passages you think help your case which they don't show me where it says if I ask someone in heaven to pray for me that's

11:33 idolatry you're wasting my time yeah no there there's no there's no scripture that says that specifically good that's all I wanted to hear now let me make my case for me the same case that you would make to show me for example you can play pray to the holy spirit because if I were to challenge you since the holy spirit is God can you show me in scripture where it says pray to the Holy Spirit you can't find it so don't waste your time there is no command saying pray to the Holy Spirit okay but we know just because scripture doesn't say it doesn't mean we don't pray to the holy spirit because if the holy spirit is God and the Bible tells us God is worthy of worship and we invoke him then ipof facto what is true of God would be true of the spirit so if I pray to God then I can pray to the

12:19 spirit because he's God though the Bible doesn't directly tell me pray to the spirit this method of interpreting scripture you're going to end up with communion of saints because I'm going to ask you the first question does the bible tell us to pray for one another that I can ask you to pray for me yes okay so so we've established the first point that Believers on Earth can ask one another to pray for one another right so I don't need to give you scripture to prove that right no there it says that in James okay so that's good yeah James 51 1316 now that's the first point secondly according to the Bible those in heaven are alive Ed glorified and sinless they're not dead and they're aware of events on Earth go to Luke 20 37-

13:07 38 I I totally agree Romans 4 says that okay so you agree they're alive of alive those who are alive so you agree they're alive yes they excellent so number one so I don't need to prove that so if we can ask one another to pray and those in heaven are alive and perfected and their prayers are more effective because they don't have sin hindering their prayers do I need to also prove that they're aware of what takes place on Earth or you already know that the great cloud of witnesses and so you know this I well I yeah okay so so you just by the way you just prove hold on because it's over now you just prove communion of saints that's all I need to establish from scripture these three facts which you just agreed to number one we are to pray for one another number two you just admit those in

13:52 heaven are alive perfected glorified sinless and obviously their prayers will be more effective than ours because our prayers are hindered by sin theirs are hindered by nothing they're sinless and number three you admit you admit that's the point I hear okay I believe through scripture that we are sinless because we're forgiven no you're still a sinner that needs to daily confess your sins you mentioned James right read James 31-2 but we're the righteousness of God that doesn't mean that you are sinless because the same Bible tells you that your prayers can be hindered such as 1 Peter 3 go to 1 Peter 3:7 so I don't know what Bible you're reading with your wife okay so if my wife is angry because

14:37 I've caused her to stumble my prayer is hindered that means that's sin because I caused her to stumble so what are you smoking so you think that if your prayers are hindered no I didn't say I think Peter said Peter listen hindered Derek Peter said your prayers on Earth can be hindered because of sin do you agree yes or no I agree yes okay now James 513- 16 it says the prayer the righteous fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man avails much meaning the more you submit to the spirit the more closely you walk with the spirit the more powerful your prayers do you agree with James 5 because you mentioned James 5 yeah I agree with that okay now then the third

15:23 Point Hebrews 12:22 to 24 specifically 23 says the spirits of the Dead who are alive in heaven are perfect sinless how much more effective are their prayers whoa okay no answer don't give me woe how much more because I'm going to show you they do pray Revelations 6:9-11 you said Hebrews 911 no Hebrews 12:22 to 24 and then Revelation 6 9-11 it shows those Souls were beheaded are praying to Jesus in heaven to avenge their blood on Earth and Jesus says wait a while and I'll do so so they are praying in heaven and in Hebrews 12222 24 it says they have church in heaven read it Hebrews 12:22 to 24 I just don't understand how Mary

16:10 could hear us anyway Derek you just said that the people in heaven are alive and aware of events on Earth how are they aware of events on Earth if they don't see and hear us what are you smoking brother it's a fair point what was the verse in Hebrews that you were talking about how Hebrews 12 22- 24 read it Hebrews 1222 to4 let me just okay uh Hebrews 12:22 22 to 24 22 to 24 yep okay but you have come to Mountain Zion and to the city of the Living God the heavenly Jerusalem and to the myriads of angels to the general assembly and Church of the firstborn so what what do they have in heaven wait wait what do they have in

16:56 heaven um a lot of people only people they have church sure yeah so what do you do in church you talk about Jesus well Jesus is in front of you you talk to him directly what else do you do in church uh worship God and does worship also include praying to God yeah so they're praying in heaven yeah good I'm glad because you just made you just proved communion of saints but go ahead okay um enrolled in heaven and to God the judge of all and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect and wait the spirits of who and the judge of all and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect so Believers their Spirits are there not their bodies because their bodies are in

17:42 the grave but they're there as spirits and they are perfect yeah that's what it says okay keep reading and to Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant and to the sprinkled blood which speaks a better than the blood of Abel so Derek let's make this quick because you just proved communion Saints scripturally so let's see if you get it since these Spirits are perfected sinless they're in the presence of Christ and they're having church and you just admit part of church means pray you just admit these perfect sinless believers who are there as Spirits are praying now according to James 513 all the way to 20 but we'll read James 5316 if you are righteous and you pray

18:29 fervently will your prayers be more effective than someone who steeped in sin and in Rebellion to God oh are you sorry um you're not even listening huh no I thought I didn't know you anyway yes yes yes okay so now you just admit since they are aware of what takes place on Earth they can see and hear what takes on place on her by the grace of God and they're having Church there which means they're praying what more do I need to prove to you that they're alive they are perfected and because they love their brothers and sisters in Christ who are still on earth like you mentioned Hebrews 12:1 a great cloud of witnesses witnessing you running the race to reach heaven so you can join them that means we should

19:17 expect they would be praying for us because they're not disinterested in us so if they're alive and perfected and I can ask other believers to pray for me why can't I ask them why let me let me ask this good good why not just pray to Jesus same reason why you ask me to pray for you why do you ask me why not just pray to Jesus maybe I might not know how to pray are you serious like you like don't know what to pray for okay so then you just answer your question because I don't know what to pray so I'm GNA ask them who know how to pray to pray for me okay and you said that like sin can hinder our prayers yeah 1 Peter 3:7 is an example when I sin against my wife my

20:04 prayer is hindered so do you believe that that hindered like sin quality um would also hinder your the Bible itself says people that you're go to Isaiah 591 and2 Isaiah 59 that when you're in sin and you don't repent God does not hear your prayers Isaiah 591 and2 Isaiah you're answering your own questions buddy 59 102 you said one to two yes oh one to two uh behold the Lord's hand is not so short that it cannot save nor is his ear so dull that it cannot hear but your wrongdoings have caused a separation between you and your God and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he

20:50 does not hear so if you are in sin and you don't repent and you're knowing you're in sin and you profess to be a believer like the Israelites profess to be God's people will he hear your prayer yes or no uh no okay now go to Psalm 6618 what does the psalmist say Psalm 66 18 18 okay Psalm 6618 if I regard wickedness in my heart the Lord will not hear read it one more time if I regard wickedness in my heart the Lord will not hear a third time if I regard wickedness in my heart the Lord will not hear okay so the Bible tells you if you even think of sin let alone act upon it God will

21:36 not hear you because your sins become abominable until you repent so what more scripture do I need to give you that we on Earth because we struggle with sin our prayers are hindered and are not always answered but such is not the case with those in heaven they are sinless so okay I hear you so you keep saying you hear me but you still want object but go ahead you said my prayers can be hindered to God yes for your sin unless unless you're sinless are you that arrogant at 25 you think no no no that's not what I'm saying so right can my prayers to someone else in heaven be limited as well because of sin of course anyone who's in sin if they are not

22:23 repentant and ask the Lord to forgive their sin their prayers are hindered period but now when you ask the Lord to forgive you and to restore you he shows you mercy and now you're walking in communion with the Lord and in that state can I then ask Believers to pray for me I'll give you I'll give you a human example let's not even use Heaven if your pastor knows that you are in willful unrepentant sin let's say you're having premarital sex you are fornicating or you are addicted to porn or you're a thief and you come to the to the church on Sunday and the pastor confronts you for your sin and you show

23:09 a nonchalant arrogant attitude about it and don't repent when you tell the pastor to pray for you you think he's gonna pray for you he's going to throw you out and ask the Lord to discipline you probably both yeah he's going to throw you out and pray God disciplin you so you just answered your question even on Earth among humans if I know that you are Wicked sinner who's sinning deliberately willfully and justifying it I'm not going to pray something positive I'm going to pray God rebuke you and chasing you teach you the fear of the Lord so you can repent and be safe from destruction so why would you expect that those in heaven are glorified who now hate sin perfectly because they see how much it angers the Lord would pray God's blessing on you on Earth as opposed to praying God's discipline on you which is

23:56 exactly what you find Revelation 69 9-1 go to Revelations 691 to 11 okay Revelation 69 to 11 when the lamb broke the fifth seal I saw under the altar The Souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had maintained and they cried out with a loud voice saying how long oh Lord how holy and true will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on those who live on the earth so are they praying oh Lord bless them and save them have mercy on them or saying Lord destroy them because they're

24:41 murderers unbelievers who hate you and hate your church my my son just woke up from n okay go ahead but you got it now right yeah it's I'll still have to chew on it for a while but I'll message you after you get done with your okay chew more than you comment because the comments are getting you in trouble because you still need a lot to learn brother appreciate that be humble I was 252 and I was aring it now at 49 I'm even more arrogant so be humble brother all right buddy take care we'll talk have a good one God bless