A Brain-First Approach to Parenting

0:00 Welcome back to Foster Adopt Minnesota's Let's Talk, a podcast that brings you valuable resources for prospective and current adoptive and foster families as well as professionals. My name is Bridget and I'm the education director at Foster Adopt Minnesota. >> And I'm Chris, education coordinator at FAM. >> Well, hey Chris. >> Well, hey Bridget, tell us about who we have joining us today. >> Absolutely. Today we are joined by Eileen Divine. Eileen is a clinical social worker and the founder of Brain First Parenting. She is based in Oregon but supports families around the world in dealing with challenging behaviors with her very effective and very understandable approach to the brain behavior connection. Eileen has

0:46 presented for FAM on two different occasions and we are so happy to have her share her knowledge on our podcast today. Welcome Eileene. >> Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. >> Oh, we're so happy to have you. So, let's start at the beginning. Can you tell us about yourself and what led you to working with families dealing with challenging behaviors? >> Yeah. So, I am a therapist and a parent coach and I've been doing that work for a very long time since before I was even married. But, um I was doing a completely different line of work with people. Um, the way that I got into doing the work that I currently do today is when my daughter Maya, who is now 16,

1:32 when she entered our family, she came into our family very quickly and unexpectedly. So, um, that's a whole another story. But a piece of that is we really didn't know much of her history or what had happened to her um, prenatally or um, what had been the story for her birth mom and birth father. Um, we did learn that later and that was critical information because we knew that Maya's development was not typical. We also have a um, son who is only 15 months older than Maya. So, I feel like I was at an advantage. I had this sidebyside comparison and so I knew pretty quickly her development wasn't typical, but we had no idea what that was about. Um, so to make a long

2:17 story short, we um were able to get a diagnosis of FASD, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder for Maya when she was just over 2 years old. I had no idea at the time how unusual that was to be able to get a diagnosis so young. Um, but she had the facial characteristics, she had some physical abnormalities that helped confirm that diagnosis. Um, and from there we just, my husband Dave and I really set out to figure out, well, what does she need from us so that she can have the best life possible? And that information, we eventually found it. It was not easy to find. Um, there was a lot of discouragement, hopelessness suffering

3:02 that could have been avoided had we been able to find that information more quickly. and um if I could have found the support that I really needed at that time. This this was over a dozen years ago now. Um so after going through that process myself, I decided to change the the focus of my clinical work and support families who found themselves in similar situations. So that's what I do now. I have brain first parenting which is services that are for parents who have kids with neurobbehavioral challenges. many of them um kids who have um gone through adoption who were in foster care. Uh and then I also have think brain first training for professionals which helps professionals

3:47 understand these complex kids from this brain first perspective and work with them more effectively. >> You really learn through your real life experiences. It sounds like >> Oh yes. >> Yeah. It was the hardest way and probably the best way to learn. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, being a social worker and having my my husband at the time was um in education, he worked at a university and taught teachers and was in a classroom. So, we both felt very very confident that we whatever this was, we had it like we could figure this out. It was fine. We're going to be able to do this. And we were wrong about that. We did have we did have the resources we needed ultimately, the

4:34 internal resources, external resources, but we were missing a lot of key information that just isn't readily available. Um, and so that was the piece that was so so difficult for several years that I want to um really help other families avoid. It's why I do the work that I do. >> And thank you for doing this work because I know it's so needed. And like I said at the top, we have had you for a couple of webinars and the feedback has just been so positive that that your information and you being able to draw from your personal stories has so so benefited families. So thank you. >> I'm so glad. Yeah. >> Yeah. So can you tell us what is the brain first approach to parenting and

5:21 how it is different from older or more traditional ways of working with youth with challenging behaviors? >> Yeah, absolutely. So it begins with the understanding that brains are always connected to behavior. And this is you know not just my idea or somebody else's idea. It's what we know based on research neuroscience research the relational neurosciences that every single behavior we carry out every day is connected to our brain. So it only makes sense then that when we're considering someone's behavior and in this case a child who has really relentless challenging exhausting behaviors that right alongside that we consider how their brain works. Because if we don't, then we're missing 50% of

6:06 the information, 50% of the equation. So why are they doing this? Why won't they stop doing this? I've told them a million times this is not okay. And what might be happening with their brain? Why are they stuck in this loop? Why do they continue to do the same thing over and over again despite our conversations? That is the missing piece of information that nobody tells us as parents we need to be understanding and looking for and that they're not asking about our kids either. So there's two things that happen because of that. One is that our kids who have a brain based difference brain is a physical part of their body. What do we do for people who have differences in any part of their physical part of their body? We provide them with accommodations. It's what's just and right and fair.

6:53 When we have a brain based difference that's invisible to most people except for these challenging behaviors, but those behaviors are not understood as being connected to their brain difference. Then they are punished over and over and over again for their disability, for their differences instead of provided with accommodations. And accommodations is actually the path to less challenging behavior. So that's that's the other missing piece. Um the other piece is that um parents don't understand this connection by no fault of their own. Nobody's taught it to them or told them how essential it is. And so they continue to approach this child from this very traditional behavioral lens which says that behaviors are on purpose. They're willful. They're within

7:39 a child's control at all times. And so they must be doing it on purpose to me just to make my life miserable, which we know just isn't the case for lots of reasons. So parents get stuck in that because they don't know any other perspective and they find themselves increasingly frustrated, burnt out, resentful because nothing works. And because they are parenting their child in a way that is not in alignment with their child's brain or their unique neurobiology, those behavioral symptoms that their child has continue to escalate. They just get more gain more and more momentum and intensity over time. So interrupting that cycle and providing parents with the information they need like I know I know you have

8:26 these other kids who you use this traditional parenting approach with and I know they all turned out fine. I know that it worked for them. It doesn't mean that those approaches are always terrible or harmful. It just means it does not work for a child who experiences the world so differently than we ever imagined. >> Very good. That's so helpful. Okay. So, you know, if I'm a caregiver listening to this and it's like, "Yep," you know, especially with our audience of a lot of um foster caregivers, kinship caregivers, adoptive caregivers, you know, they're like, "Yeah, I I raised, you know, three, four kids and and that worked and it's not working now and we're all suffering and >> we're in this loop and we can't get out

9:12 of this loop." >> Yes. what what's some of the kind of practical orformational things that you would be able to kind of say to this family these families? You know, I'm a little more general obviously, but >> yeah. Yeah. The first thing is the first thing I would say is I understand how you feel and the frustration and and when we talk about shifting our lens to this brain first lens oftentimes those very same parents are like I'm exhausted. I literally have tried everything. Like I don't know if I want to try something else because I've been let down so many times and my plate is very full because they have these massive challenging behaviors in their home they're trying to to manage. And so my the next thing I

9:59 would say to that parent or that caregiver is you are not going to be working harder shifting to this perspective. It feels like a learning curve because it is. you're unlearning a whole lot as well as learning, but you're not going to be working harder than you already are. So, really helping parents and caregivers believe that sometimes it feels like a leap of faith. That's a lot of the support that I do is helping them um keep that faith and stay on this path, right, until they start to see the results that create the momentum for them to to believe, okay, this is the right path. Um, the next piece that I would that I would say is that you have to begin to learn about your child's unique neurobiology. Um, what I mean by

10:44 that is how does their brain work differently? What assumptions are you making about the way that their brain works that just aren't true? So, a few examples, we know that kids with neurobbehavioral challenges, so brainbased differences, challenging behaviors, that they, for example, have um low tolerance for frustration. They have a very narrow window of tolerance that's not about their character. It's not like, oh gosh, they're such a baby. Why are they getting upset over this? Like, they shouldn't be, you know, getting upset about this. This isn't a big deal. For their fragile and unique system where they have very little emotional regulation skills, it is that distressing for them. That's why you're seeing such a big behavior. Or kids who have very slow processing speed. So

11:31 Diane Melbourne talks about these kids as 10-second kids in a 1- second world. And it's not an exaggeration. My daughter is more like a 20-cond child in a 1second world. And so what that means for her is that she needs 10 to 20 extra seconds to respond to me when I've asked her to do something, to acknowledge me when I've called her name, to think about what does she want for lunch, and then give me the answer. She needs permission to take that time. She needs loads more time to get out the door in the morning. Probably triple the amount that a typical 16-year-old would need. That's the accommodations, right? We make assumptions based on kids chronological age that they can do certain things that are just simply not

12:19 true because of the way their brain has been impacted along with processing pace, hearing every third word of what you're saying. Right? So, the way that I'm talking right now, a rate that hopefully isn't too fast that listeners can keep up with. But if my daughter were to hear this, she'd be hearing every third word. Well, no wonder. She has no idea what our conversation was. That she nods her head at me and then goes and does another thing. It's not about, oh, she just wants to do her thing all the time. She never wants to listen. No, she actually is a really good listener and wants to do a good job, but I need to give her time. and I can only give her one step at a time. That's another assumption that we make. Learning and memory. How can kids hold on to three, four, five directions at a

13:05 time? At a certain age, we expect them to do that. And what we know to be true, again, based in research, is that many of these kids can hold on to the one direction and after that, they lose it, right? They lose everything you've said after that. So, it's really about understanding what are those lagging skills that your child struggles with or your teen or your young adult so that you can adjust the environment so that they're not working so hard just to survive their day, right? They're navigating a world that comes nowhere close to being set up for them. And they need us, the adults who hold the power in each of these environments, to really adjust that environment so that they can thrive, they can be more successful, they can settle. And when we see that settling process, that's when those

13:51 behavioral symptoms that reflect that poor fit, their discomfort, their distress, their overwhelm, those start to dissipate, right? Frequency and intensity over time. >> Okay. I love everything you said. Sorry. I just Okay. I just have this like side by side in my mind. It's like that sliding door scene or something of like how this could go >> like in a ton of typical home. >> Yes. where it can go so so bad. >> Yes. >> In like 15 seconds versus stay in the calm state. >> Yes. >> Simply with starting with the question, what do you want for lunch? >> Yes. >> If you just said to your what do you want for lunch? >> And and they didn't answer. Come on, I got to get back to work. What?

14:38 >> Or or then you started going, we have peanut butter sandwiches. We have egg salad. We have, you know, leftovers from last night. And they then they don't catch that, >> you know, and then it just goes. >> Yes. Where they say the last thing they heard >> and then they come back to you five minutes later and say, "Oh, actually, I want this." Because they've had the think time and you're like, "What? I already made you this." >> Oh my gosh. >> I feel my nervous system elevating as we say it. Yeah. >> So, can I can I comment on that though? That piece. So, we talk about this situation is like what's the big deal? like give them more time. Like you could go down this path of everything actually working out much much better um than maybe it is now or it could be this

15:24 escalation for the rest of the day. And I I want to acknowledge what you just said. You can feel your nervous system reacting to that, right? We all have that experience. It is as hard as we think it is. Even these like very mundane kind of daily interactions, right? So this is the piece. The other part of this brain first parenting is really the parent experience which is rarely acknowledged to the degree that it needs to be and deserves. I just want to highlight that because I don't want parents to listen and feel like, man, she makes it sound so simple, like why can't I do this, right? And so knowing getting the information like we're talking about now is is the first step. It's a huge step. It's lifech changing. The second step is the embodiment of it. And that is if I describe my work with

16:11 parents, that's it. >> Yeah. helping them make this big leap to really understand what their nervous system is telling them to settle themselves so they can help settle their child. >> Yeah, >> thank you for pointing that out. I completely agree. So that right. So there's like that first scene and then there's that second scene which is what do you want for lunch and there's not an answer. >> Yes. And the parent feels their body and they take a quick breath, you know, and the caregiver goes, "One, two." >> Yep. >> And like literally counts. >> Yes. >> And then says, >> "How about grilled cheese?" And we're waiting. And we're waiting.

16:57 Right. I mean, you can lay out how different that could look. But I so appreciate you saying >> how hard it is. how hard it is to stay in your body and stay regulated and be able to slow down to that pace when the world >> is going so fast around you and there's so many demands. Yeah. >> Yes. Exactly. So, especially and you know a piece of this work too is understanding our own deeply held beliefs and values and how they clash with our child's neurobiology. So, this is a a perfect example for me because I am a task master. I love being efficient. I love having a to-do list and just getting stuff done. And that is complete clash with the way that my daughter is because she has to move through the world very slowly to survive

17:43 it, right? And so that the way that you describe that, yes, absolutely that can be the way it is. But there's always so many other creative accommodations that may feel better to that parent depending on just who they are and what they do. So, for example, if you have a teenager, text them, here's what we have for lunch today. I'll come check in with you in 10 minutes so you have some time to think about it. >> Or going into the room or how you describe, but writing it down and saying, "Hey, here's some options for lunch. I'm going to give you some time to think about it." Giving them permission to think, right? So that if you feel anxious sitting there counting to 10 and you feel like it's like so painful to go through that, like relieve yourself of that. >> Yeah.

18:29 >> Right. So I just want folks listening to understand there is this range of accommodations that you can give once you understand where the poor fit is for your child. The accommodations are are truly endless and they're they're usually not lifealtering. Like they're these moments a day shifting our our attention, our lens. And again, that takes work, takes intentionality. It does become more automatic over time. Like, I don't think about accommodations with my daughter. It's just the way it is, right? Um, and so wanting to put that out there for folks, too, that it doesn't always feel so hard, but you are learning a new way of being, >> being a parent, being in relationship with your child, and that just that takes time. >> Great. So, as a way to deepen our understanding of this approach, could

19:14 you give us a couple of examples of difficult behaviors or situations you've been presented with u maybe by some families that come to see you? >> Sure. >> That this approach has helped them in their relationship with the youth and their >> Yeah. So, one of the things that I think um I have parents talk about frequently are what I call this clash with their child's relational cognitive skills. And those are cognitive skills. There's three kind of buckets that I think about it. One is social emotional maturity and skills. One is emotional regulation skills and one is cognitive flexibility. And all three of those categories of cognitive skills we all need in place to be in a reciprocal successful give and

20:00 take relationship with another person. And so many parents feel like my child is selfish. They need everything to be their way. Like they get stuck in this idea and that's it. Like nobody else's opinions matter. Like they can't they don't ever acknowledge how I feel. They never acknowledge how that made their sibling feel when they did this. That feels terrible as a parent because we often associate that with our child's character, right? Like they're just kind of a jerk. They're just kind of a bad person when that is not at all what is happening. So those cognitive skills again those three buckets there's lots of details underneath those um that I mentioned are cognitive skills just like executive functioning just like

20:45 processing pace no different right they just get viewed through a behavioral lens which again is what our society is deeply entrenched in as someone's character like oh they could get my perspective if they wanted to they're just selfish and they don't want to no that is actually a skill that once parents understand like ah Oh, they cannot see my perspective. They can't they can't even see that people have other perspectives other than their own. They can't make that leap and let alone put themselves in my shoes to see it. Now, the good news about this is that if it is a skill, which it is, then we can help cultivate it and build it, right? It's such a more helpful and hopeful perspective than like this is just who my child is, right? They're just not a

21:32 very nice person. What has to happen though is that we have to see it for what it is and be able to cultivate it and build it. So this is getting to your question. One of the really really difficult behaviors that parents describe is this inability perspective take. Um doing something that the parents like, "Why did you do that? That was so mean. What were you thinking?" Right? And then sometimes the child can't even understand like, "Well, why doesn't my brother want to play with me anymore?" And the parent's like, "Are you kidding me?" Like, "What? Look what you just did to them. Why would they want to play with you after you did that to them?" Right? And so that escalation when the parent is trying to address it in the moment from this behavioral lens, the

22:17 child feels shame, they feel under threat, under attack, it just escalates from there, right? And so that's when we see lots of chronic aggressive behaviors, um, lots of just conflict, stirring things up, dysregulation throughout the home, right? It just causes so much stress and overwhelm for the entire home. So the the key piece there is to understand in that moment, your child is doing the best they can truly, and their skills are so limited that you have to see it for what it is. Like I said, like they can't see their brother's perspective. No wonder they're clueless about why they don't want to go play with them now, right? And so outside of the challenging moment when your child has t had time to to regulate again and

23:04 when you feel regulated, that's the other key piece is circling back with them and helping them connect the dots, helping them get perspective like your brother, how do you imagine he must have felt? We do this with really little kids. So we do this with like three and four year olds because they are still developing these skills just naturally where they are developmentally say two and three years old but we don't expect to have to do it with an 11 12 13 year old right but it's the same skills it's just lagging way behind where we thought it would be um by that point in their chron where they are chronologically aged. >> Thank you Eileen. That's such a good example. Just so much for our listeners to take away. So if our listeners want to learn more about your work or get in

23:51 touch with you, can you share how they can connect and learn more? >> Yeah, sure. So my website is just my name eileenine.com. And I also have a podcast. It's called Bringfirst Parenting with Eileen Divine. And um those episodes I try really hard to keep them under 20 minutes or so because I know how busy the parents are that that I'm here to support. So, I would say those are the two the two ways that parents find me and find the most useful free information on this approach um to really help them shift their lens and help their family heal. >> And then how about can you just speak a little more about the uh newer uh option you have for professionals?

24:37 Yeah. So, after doing this work for over 10 years now, um I have had more and more professionals and agencies reach out to me and say, "We really think our staff would benefit from this approach." And so, it really feels like the right time, has felt like the right time for a while now to start teaching professionals about how to see complex kids with brainbased differences, really challenging behaviors through this lens. And so, that's the think brain first training for professionals and um yeah that's also on my website or you can go to thinkwrainfirst.com and find out all the details there. I just finished up as you said it's a it's a newer program that I just um launched

25:22 this summer and I just finished up the first cohort and it was incredible. I was just so affirming and so encouraging and I am just really really really excited to think about I have big visions for this program. So really excited to think about how this can impact families. Um there is there are more families out there than there are people who know how to help them. I think the parents and caregivers listening can probably relate to that. Um and so this is my effort to really balance that a bit more and change that for them. Awesome. I so appreciate that. >> Yes. And it has been such a pleasure listening to you and having you spend time with us today. >> Thank you. It's been great to be here.

26:08 I've enjoyed our conversation. Thanks so much for having me. >> Thanks, Eileen. Take care. And be sure to check out Eileen's podcast. It's awesome. Thanks, everybody. >> Thank you. >> And before we wrap up, I want our audience to know that I was corrected today. you pronounce Oregon, Oregon, not Oregon as I said earlier. So, in the spirit of uh humility and correcting mistakes, there we go to all the if there's any Oregonians listening in, I have been corrected. And I want to let our audience know that Foster Minnesota has a program called Help. Help is a free, confidential, and statewide warmline for adoptive fostering kinship communities. Get connected to tailored

26:54 resources and support including vetted therapists competent with adoption, trauma, and attachment topics. Our help specialist team is a deep understanding of topics across the lifespan for all who have been moved by adoption, foster care, and kinship care and can be an invaluable bridge to resources. Go to foster adoptmn.org and click on permanency services help program. Thank you all so much for joining us today for Let's Talk and please subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen to our podcast. We hope you tune in again soon.