برابری زن و مرد در تقابل با کلیشه‌های فرهنگی - سعید روحانی

0:21 Welcome to Podcast Seven, I Am Faith. French archaeologist Ms. Patomats, in a book titled Our Prehistoric Man is Also a Woman, shows that many of our ideas about the roles of men and women in prehistoric times were formed not from scientific evidence but based on gender-based assumptions. They state that even when stone tools, cave paintings, and signs of communal life were discovered, they were all attributed to men by default . While there is evidence that shows that women also played an active role in hunting, painting, and other vital activities of the tribe.

1:07 Today, alongside Dr. Saeed Rouhani, a physician and humanities researcher, we want to take a closer look at how these stereotypes have shadowed our view of the relationship between men and women from the past to the present, and what ways there are to break free from them. Hello Dr. Saeed Rouhani, welcome to Podcast Seven. Greetings to you. Greetings to you. And thank you for inviting me to have a short conversation. Thank you very much. As you know, Dr. Rouhani,

1:55 today we are going to talk about the issue of equality between men and women. First of all, it would be good to go to the perspective of the Baha'i Mirror. The eldest son and successor of the Baha'i Faith, namely, Baha'u'llah, uses an expression somewhere to describe the concept of equality between men and women, and that expression is that he compares the human world to the two wings of a bird. I want to ask, given this interpretation, how can you achieve a global discourse with this perspective ? I think this metaphor is very telling. Therefore, we must rely on this method, especially when His Holiness Bahá'u'lláh, His Holiness 'Abdu'l-Bahá,

2:42 used this metaphor, more than a century ago. At that time, of course, the issue of equality between men and women was not as we understand it now and in fact we talk about it and try to popularize such a principle in human societies, and the thinking was much more closed and the attitudes were much more limited. His Holiness 'Abdu'l-Bahá's purpose in using this metaphor was that in fact human society is composed of two forces, that is, it is

3:32 composed of a female force and a male force, like a bird that has two wings, and these two wings are equal in every bird. What does that mean? This means that if there is no equality between the two wings, the bird will never be able to fly in any way. This means that not only is equality not specifically mentioned here, but equality as a means to promote and progress societies and actually reach more advanced stages of social relations and social welfare, as well as the

4:18 mental and intellectual development of humans, and the principle of equal rights for men and women here as a structural principle for such progress and development. This use of this metaphor actually leads us to this. Of course, this equality includes issues of justice, fairness, human dignity, of course, the discussion of human rights includes all of these, and it is actually a very rich and vast discourse that is really ongoing at the level of different cultures in today's human society and is an inspiration for change. This

5:10 must be considered. So of course, development without the expansion of freedom and equality not only for women and men in society, but for all humans, regardless of any discrimination, in fact, and the participation of all humans in an equal position to build society, will not be real, as the saying goes, without such a principle of development and progress, it will not be sustainable. Different historical and cultural stereotypes have been

5:56 formed over the centuries regarding the roles of women and men, which They still continue into the modern world . I want to ask you why do you think these stereotypes have persisted so long and are so deeply rooted in society, and what can be done to break them? Yes, these stereotypes are truly stereotypes that are deeply rooted within us. I can't say we are born with them, but we become accustomed to them in the first months and years of life. Stereotypes are actually the result of a very long historical evolution and are

6:46 not specific to a particular society. All societies in the world, on all continents of the world, almost all of us face these stereotypes . For me, as someone who lives in Europe, I have witnessed their lives since childhood. Even though these societies have been advanced through many economic, cultural, artistic, and scientific struggles, I have encountered these stereotypes. And I might say that in some cases, I was really surprised how in countries that have had so much social progress, there are still gender stereotypes, as the saying goes, in the minds of many of their

7:31 young people. I say this for my generation. Of course, these stereotypes are changing. They are still very much alive and well, and they rely on them, so to speak. This was very interesting to me from another perspective when I realized how these stereotypes have worked and hindered the progress of women in highly developed countries, even up until recent decades. I mean, I have a very brief memory in America when I

8:19 visited a museum and saw, for example, works of art there. Later, I realized that the story was about the works of a female painter who was very well-known and so-called famous in terms of art. It was not used because it was not appropriate. Let's say it was not appropriate, and her works were set aside, and this showed that this situation had arisen simply because she was a woman and not a man. And even in the scientific arena, books have been

9:06 published criticizing these gendered scientific interpretations, showing how 19th-century scholars, who were rationalists and whose minds should not have been influenced by such stereotypes, but to what extent in their scientific interpretations, when we now turn to prehistoric science and when they conducted studies on prehistoric humans, they unconsciously pushed all their mental stereotypes

9:51 into their interpretations of the scientific understandings they had, which was later proven to be the effect of mental stereotypes, whereas science a century later proved that the role of women in ancient times was not the way these gentlemen interpreted it, it was not correct, but that they had a different role, and because in fact human life was such that both male and female forces were used for progress and especially for survival and fighting against pests and diseases. The chaos that nature created for them

10:38 was necessary, and they could not deprive themselves of this social force by using such titles . This is a very, very interesting and contemporary discussion that we see, and when we see that such a stereotype is common even among scientists who are wise, we understand how it can be at the societal level . So if we want to break these stereotypes, the first step, as I understand it, is awareness and education, am I right? Yes, yes, education is the first stage, and education begins in the

11:26 months and weeks, in the first days of life. We can even say to what extent the mother's spiritual and psychological states can have an effect on the pregnant mother, especially on the fetus in her womb. That is, the state of upbringing can even be said to begin before birth, and from those first months and days. Now, if there is a mother whose own mentality is influenced by such stereotypes, of course, it is very, very easy to transfer them to her child,

12:12 and we see how that child, in those first years of his or her mentality, is influenced by the beliefs, so-called false beliefs, that are actually in the minds of his or her parents, can be transferred to him or her. I mean, for the first years of life, but it 's not just the family issue that's at issue here, but education at the community level. Formal education and what the culture of the community, so to speak, informally, we might say informally, also plays a very fundamental role in shaping the attitudes of that

12:58 young person or that child. In fact, it's a set that pushes the child's mentality toward greater or lesser equality between the two components of society, namely men and women. For this reason, education is very fundamental. Here, the issue of education is not just a matter of so-called learning and such, but rather very effective moral education. And when we talk about moral education, we do n't mean, so to speak, just religious teachings, which can, in some cases, lead the

13:55 child to extreme biases and one-sided, biased positions, you know, in fact, guide him in a direction that is not desirable. The real purpose is to teach human values, that is, human virtues such as justice, fairness, mutual respect, responsibility, the unity of all human beings, and such values. Cultivating such values in the child's mind from the very beginning, so to speak. Childhood is very basic and academic education alone is not enough. Of course, the right to academic education for girls is now almost

14:41 accepted, not everywhere, but in many countries, it is accepted as a human right, something that was not the case before and boys were always preferred. When economic or other issues arose, boys were preferred over girls. However, as we know, Hazrat Abdul Baham says, a girl has the first role in educating a child from the very first days, the first minutes of life. Therefore, girls should be educated very strongly and even in such a way that if necessary, that is, if it is not possible, girls should be preferred over boys. Of

15:27 course, this is an issue that, in today's societies with the facilities we have, is not an issue in that way. However, educating girls is very important, both morally and academically. It is very important. Give an example in this regard. What do experts in this field think? For example, Maria Montessori, who is one of the pioneers of education and theorists of child education. The pioneers and theorists of child education herself is a woman, Mrs. Maria Montessori, and this should also be considered. She said that she lived in the 19th century and it

16:15 wasn't easy for her to reach the position she had because she was a woman, so this should be remembered, but she was very sensitive to the issue of her education. She is a doctor and she was very sensitive to the issue of education and believed that education should be liberating. This is what he was saying, and it is about strengthening human dignity, not just the transfer of knowledge. What I wanted to say is that today, humanity is realizing the principle that moral education, meaning the cultivation of human virtues and human values in a child from the very beginning of life, is very fundamental.

17:00 In your opinion, what obstacles exist in today's Iranian society to realizing the principle of equality between men and women, and how can an effective discourse be achieved in this regard? I think that of course the obstacles that exist in Iran are obstacles that have existed in other places before, to the same extent or to a lesser or greater extent. What does that mean? That is, the articles of our constitution are obstacles that are based on discrimination. First, there is discrimination between men and women. This discrimination is in the legal system. In the interpretations of

17:46 domination, at least in the interpretations of specific religious interpretations. I don't want to say all religious aspects. But some interpretations are patriarchal culture, which is very severe. And the repressions that are accepted in this case take place in these conditions. The systematic discrimination that is sometimes recognized in this society. Of course, in Iran, we have seen that during the last one or two centuries, when there have been movements by the Iranian women's community and even the support of many Iranian men to achieve equality, we have

18:33 seen what opposition there has been, what repression there has been, what stone-throwing there has been to prevent such a thing. And I want to mention a figure like Taher Qara-al-Ain, who in the mid-nineteenth century really raised the call for equality between women and men and reminded them that they may stifle their voice, but they cannot stop the movement of women towards equality . These obstacles are, of course, very severe, and Ms. Shirin Badi always mentions the discriminatory laws of official jurisprudence and the culture of silence in her speeches,

19:22 saying that such factors are exacerbating them. That culture of the entire society must be kept in mind. Of course, for me, what they say has opened up many windows of hope, and we see how Iranian women today are courageously trying to change the conditions of society, and in this way, many, many men are with them, and this in itself opens up a very large window of hope for us. Dr. Rouhani, if

20:08 you were to give a key message to the young audience of this program, what would it be? And I think this message for the younger generation is of course very important. It is important for all of us that change starts with me. Change is not about changing others. First, change is about myself. That is, how do I as a person, as a human being, as a husband, as a father, as a person who has a responsibility in society, deal with this principle of equality between men and women? And it is really a huge challenge because,

20:55 intentionally or unintentionally, in our behavior, speech, and reactions, these stereotypes come back in a way. And how can we fight these stereotypes in ourselves? That is, how can we fight them and change our behavior towards this principle of equality? This is the beginning of change. This is the beginning of change. And of course, the younger generation, I think, has a lot more common mindset than the younger generation, especially in the current context. In the current context, with the developments and changes that are about to take place globally and in Iranian society, it is

21:41 really very promising. And I think that the path that has begun will of course be long, but it is a path that leads to hope and improvement. It is the conditions of society. Thank you, Dr. Saeed Rouhani, for joining Podcast Seven today. I hope you are well and happy, whoever you are. Goodbye. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.