Can a Bribe-Based Economy Ever Deliver Viksit Bharat? • Prof RV

0:07 Deep sea secrets, deadly ambush. Two agents, two nations, zero margin for error. Operation Bosmasur. Namaskar. Hello and welcome to Tur's channel. I'm your host Shria. Professor Arvi joins us today. We're going to talk about a very interesting topic which is a bridebased economy. Can that ever become a vixit bat? Well, we're going to present the pros and the cons. Let's welcome Professor Abby first and please like this video. Namaskar sir. How are you? >> Namaste. Namaskar. and your

0:52 usual observations you are not making about uh the single and your book and various things. So we did the book, we just did the book ad and Sangal viewers, it's still available. You can get your copy. Here are the four options that we are offering now with an enclosure with just a stand with and just a stand in case you've already bought a Sangol and just a single. You can either you can buy any one of these things. All of them are in stock. So get your own Sangol today. Sir, over to you. >> Okay. So you are giving choices now. Very nice. Very good. Yes. >> Very nice. Okay. Now everybody is talking about vit the developed economy and people are talking

1:40 about 2047 2087 various uh you know the longer the period the lesser is the issue because in the beginning of this century many companies I used to be involved with they used to say mission 2020. So I used to be wondering I asked my own CEO of a company sir you have got another three years to go this was in 2004 or something and you are telling 2020 vision 2020 he told professor you should know one thing I have got three years to go I can't say vision 2006 or anything always say something very long when I won't be around so that nobody

2:25 can pull my caller and ask what has happened to your vision. So the vision should be much longer period preferably even after my death so that you know this won't come to haunt me. So like that everybody is now talking about you know 40 years later 50 years later and that is the current now ease of doing business is one of the major themes as well as uh you know the development of the economy. Now look at the western countries. They have significantly built the municipalities, the local level organizations,

3:11 the local cantonones and local and then slowly state level and central level. Now we are telling about you know look last 12 years there is no corruption allegation against any cabinet minister in Delhi and at least it has not come out or nobody is talking about it that's fine but that's not enough that's not ease of doing business you come to the lower levels it's a very very sad state of affairs almost local governments municipalities ities, corporations, state level, you know the Tamil lad recently had a change of government and the type of allegations made against the previous

3:58 government unbelievable actually. Even if 20% of them is true, it's really a very sad state of affairs. No government employment was available without paying money. Whether it is a teacher job, whether it is municipality job, whether it is you know you know what one can call legal representative job, everything is based upon money. It's a very and various other aspects if you look at it in terms of uh the regulatory so-called regulatory framework food and adulteration act and uh you have this uh boilers to be monitored in organizations

4:45 when I say boiler I am reminded of the '9s one actual thing which happened one boiler infector went to an IT company which was coming up in the '90s and uh he visited them as usual and told I have come to infect sir we don't have any boilers we are IT company he was shocked actually you say you are running a business how can you run a business without boilers and they tried to explain to him that we don't require it or then he gave an interesting proposition doesn't matter whether you a boiler or not but you pay me my afta because every business unit has to pay the afta. So whether you doing this or

5:32 not kindly pay me the aa. This is the type of a situation which is one of my colleague who is no more unfortunately. He was working in a company for a short period of time and he was you know you may loosely call innocent or whatever it is. some uh inspectors came and uh he was asked and then uh he has to pay. He didn't know how much to pay. So he was standing in the desk. He explained he told me this actual story. He was standing in the desk and the other side of the government person and behind was the senior official. So he asked the senior official told two. So

6:20 he took away 2,000 rupee note in those days it was there and gave it and then that fellow was surprised but he was very thankful hugged him and went away his senior official was furious when I showed you two it mean 200 why did you give him 2,000 this is a very excessive amount and it would become the nom nom and very and the worst part I can tell you is my own experience. I think I might have shared it in the 70s they used to give for undergraduate you know I was doing my BC at Lyola College they used to give something like 1,500 rupee per year as the merit comes or whatever that uh loan type of a scholarship which

7:08 is expected to be repaid. So 3 years it will be something like 4,500 or some amount. Anyhow there is the regulatory sort of there is a class in the agreement wherein if I join the teaching profession one by 10th will be deducted every year that mean in 10 years it will be written off so I went to PG to Kolkata and then later became a proer and forgot about it suddenly one day I got a notice from the government of Tamil Nad telling that uh you know you have to repay this amount And if you don't repay then your cow, buffalo land house

7:54 uh car, dog everything will be taken away. I was shocked actually. I rushed to the office at Chennai those 70s. I remember it used to be in college road or something and uh they told you have to repay sir. You have to pay some including interest and other thing. I told once one year one/10enth will be deducted. I am in the teaching profession. They told no no after undergraduation you didn't join teaching. You went for PG and you didn't take further you know this same college here. So there is no way we can uh help you. I thought better to not one thing I

8:39 my grandfather has told us among the three things never enter a court never enter a tana and never argue with a government official. These are the three fundamental principles of life we taught because if you argue with and lower the level of government official lesser should be your uh arguments because you can never win the argument because you will argue and then you will say I will go to the secretary and then finally that fellow will again refer it to the same lower division fellow and he will be happy. Oh, you have come back again here you know he's the one who has to settle it. So like that I never wanted argue. So I told okay I will pay it and

9:26 he told no sir it's lunch time I have to go you come later that evening I have to travel back to Kolkata my train another lady was sitting there sir you take care of his te coffee then I I told I am to return the money no sir whether you return the money or you take money it doesn't matter once you enter our portal you have to Then anyway I gave some I don't even recolct some small amount only in those days and then he computed using uh handheld calculator how much the amount should be and I paid so to return your fund also you have to

10:12 pay some bribery all aspects of human endeavor at our uh level is regulated by bribery. I have researched it quite a lot. Two things I don't have to pay anything so far. I shouldn't tell it aloud because somebody may think this is a good idea. When I take a walk in the park nearby, I don't have to pay any bribery for breathing pressure. This is something you know I can take one round, two round, three round, doesn't matter. Nobody is going to come and ask me immediately. Second is inhaling and exhaling. You know most of the people do yoga and other thing

10:57 and there is no amount to be paid to government and somebody told me don't tell it loud because they may decide that to inhale you have to pay four rupees to exhale you have to pay 10 rupees because if you inhale and you have to exhale there is no other alternative. So the amount will be higher and some senior citizen benefit may be given to you in other things. So these are the two areas where you don't have to pay any bribery otherwise all aspects I call it wom to tomb bribery birth certificate to death certificate death certificate is a very severe thing in case that fellow knows that you are going to have some assets to be

11:44 transferred and all these thing then the process becomes more complicated recently I'm told this death educate is available on the website you can download it so to that extent technology has facilitated the process otherwise uh it's a very two areas where huge amount is collected is registration one square of land even in India you or house you can't acquire without bribing the registars land registration you lost 20 years you find out who are all the land registars including the pun including the clerk

12:30 including all other people and completely freeze their assets nothing just freeze their asset I'm telling you you will get 25% of our GDP very easily last 20 years people all the you know from lowest level to highest level. There was a raid conducted in the 80s by the local in Bangalore of a uh land registration office. Believe me sir, this happened actually I I don't have the cutting otherwise it came in the newspaper and other normally when raids are conducted it is in already

13:17 known to the uh people in the department. the message comes. This is what is known as the friendly atmosphere created and all the you know money is tugged away or removed and everything is clean and uh after the raid the in charge is also happy. But this time something happened some communication gap or something this was not announced properly it was not informed properly they ride it the office was in the first floor. You know what? Uh, some cash was completely flushed in their toilet. Some amount was thrown through the window to the public. It was a very crowded area actually.

14:05 Obviously, people were scrambling to get some notes and everything. This is the level of the thing that Loita was shocked actually. And after that one if I remember Basava Basau I don't recolct exactly his name he introduced a scheme by which when you enter the office you have to sign the amount which you are carrying and when you leave you have to sign the amount which you are carrying. After that very you know our government officials are very innovative. They outsourced it. Then there was a raid in Salem adjacent state and they found some couple of lakhs of rupees cash in the hands of some you

14:52 know people who are sitting outside. They are not actually the employees. You know what they have done is they have allow you know asked these outsourced people to collect the amount and later they will hand it over to the officials because if these outside people are caught you can't take any action on them they are not government employees or something they can always say they came sold their land and this and that and other thing. So this is very most innovative way is to make others collect it. In another case very interesting there is a entry into the Bangalore in those days and uh there is a circle around

15:37 which the lries have to pass on that and in that circle there was a Ganesha idol every lorry fellow has to deposit 100 rupee or maximum 500 I'm talking about the 80s and 90s 100 was the standard they will throw it from the lorry And there will be people you know the agents of the cops waiting there and if it is not thrown properly or not thrown at all they will stop your lorry and if the cops want they can find 105 mistakes in your uh vehicle. So nobody wants to argue with them or something. And uh this was photographed by some press.

16:22 There was no active television in those days. Some newspaper fellows covered it and it became a big issue. And so the chief of police was very upset. Of course he was not getting proper what one can call share also. So because these are all cash and you know people were have to collect it and count it and anyhow he told this will be and the Ganesh was removed from that circle and the circle was mowed lawn was mowed and and after 2 three weeks again the same thing happened there instead of Ganesha there was a anan was kept there and they

17:10 began to give The most innovative thing was the another one I recall one of my student actually and uh she you know she was driving a two-wheeler or Luna or something in those days and she crossed the red light and was stopped by cop and she was told that you have to pay there her uncle was actually the commissioner of police that time and she was told you have to pay either you pay 50 you know no 50 rupee without uh receipt 100 rupee with receipt she paid 100 and she told I am she didn't invoke her uncle's name another thing she told the cop no I will

17:55 not uh I will pay I am a very lawabiding citizen another thing and she paid and collected the receipt much later after 2 three days she met her uncle in some location and was talking to him you know uncle what happened. He asked what happened. I have no was stopped and all this thing but I you know I never mentioned your name. I got the receipt. She took the receipt and showed it to you. And that fellow shocked. He told this is not our regular receipt. Then it came out a big scandal. Every Tana was printing their own receipt and they were giving it. So left pocket, right pocket it was known as left pocket receipt is

18:42 the real receipt. After all they have to prove also once in a while they collected real otherwise right pocket receipt is this type. You know the unbelievable amount of innovations our people do in collecting bribe is impossible to find out or deduct or something. And uh what has happened is the system has become so you know completely cancerous and it is very very difficult maximum what happened the fellow will be transferred to another location where you can continue to do the same thing there is nothing and much of this soal now for instant in this

19:27 own fellow is drowned in the manual this is a very standard thing both in Chennai as well as in Bangalore and many of the metros at least two three fellows have to drown in a manual during monsoon season. This is you know if it is not happening that will be a major type of a news. Anyhow so this is in our institute am Bangalore was situated on a road called Banergata road. Believe me sir, the road is such a bad shape from 1979 or 1980 when I occupied that place till today. It is not at over and something

20:12 like between 80 and 90 I remember seven or eight of the students of the institute have died riding motorcycle on the road because of the uh type of portals in the night. They used to trip and then fall down and this has happened actually and this is sort of a you know this is accepted type of a thing and there is a man in which one you know standed again in that near that area whole girl fell inside that time Rajiv Chandra if you remember he told he will help her and I do not know what finally happened he wanted to take it to the logical conclusion whatever that logic is anyhow that she fell inside. This is

21:01 one car couple car itself went into the huge drainage near the minister's house that time in South Bangalore. What has happened is he has converted a you know nala into a parking lot. They didn't realize that that parking lot ends in a uh drainage. a car went into the drainage and both of them. So these are and not negligence or anything. These are basically due to substantial amount of bribery. Huge amount of bribery is collected by the uh corporation by the electricity board that is another racket. I will tell you an interesting

21:49 thing in South Bangalore. Huge portion of South Bangalore in the 1980s was not paying any electricity bill but having electricity because officially they were not given the connection due to some know legal thing but they all got connection and they were enjoying electricity without paying the bill and much later it was regularized and other things. These whole corporations of these various cities if you can use the word it's called scam. It's not they all claim themsel to be service which is the most ridiculous type of a thing for almost all the aspects of the local governance bravery only happens.

22:38 For instance, whether you want uh uh you know your electricity uh activity, let's say what are the areas if you acquire any assert in this baro in this place you have to pay the bread. You buy land, you have a house, you have a vehicle, you either pay directly or pay it as service charges. This is something very very interesting. Any asset acquired entails a break. Unless you pay bribe, it will not be registered under your name. This is very very simple and it varies. Uh I was recently told it used to be around 2% or

23:25 something. I was recently told it has gone up to 10%. That mean if it is a two lakh 20,000 rupee you have to pay in order to get it registered. If you want to carry on your trade and business that is something which is very very retail pushkart dealers vendors they all have to pay fast food restaurant. I used to know a beauty parlor lady and she has to get what is known as the carrying on business license trade license for that officially it was supposed to be 40,000 rupees in those days for a 2-year trade license period she was asked two lakh in order to get that 40,000 rupee

24:11 license this is the carrying on trade or business unless she pays she will not get that This is very very simple and a fast food restaurant 500,000 every week they come and uh there is a would be restaurant near my home. I asked him why every Saturday you keep envelopes and then give it you know he keeps in an envelope 1,000 rupee or something and hand it over. He says sir this adulteration inspectors are dangerous because they will come inside and say some cockroach or mosquito is there in your hotel and they will want it to be closed and if they close it on a Saturday or something I don't have any

24:57 recourse I can't go to a court or anything and Saturday Sunday are my peak days so there is no way I can survive so that I have to smaller the business larger the percentage this is very very important Important to note retail vendor for instance 300 rupee turnover per day 30 rupee mean it goes to 10% on the turnover. See if it is a very large business like Reliance or you know Hadani or they have a huge battalion of chartered accountants lawyers and other thing to take care of all these things. But a small business fellow he is the both the marketing he is the finance manager he's the production everything he has to so there is no way he can

25:44 manage I remember in hubi one oil vendor was there I was known to blah sorry I was known to him and I was sitting in his shop in one day when I visited him he was having envelopes and then he was giving those envelopes to various people. I asked what are these on? He told they are all cash to distribute. This is for instant sales tax inspector. He has to why are you giving weekly basis? He says no sir principle amount of bravery is with me only. They have collected it 10 lakh or 15 lakh. He says 15 lakh. What do I do? I don't do anything. you keep it with you and

26:32 you give me interest. So something very innovative idea. The fellow has got brave kept it to the businessman himself and collecting interest on a weekly basis. I remember one major regulator I would not like to name him because he is still alive the in India. He collected a flat from a business entity for approving something. He collected in Bombay. It's not a joke actually. A key was handed over to him and he got a in a good location the other somewhere he got up. The most interesting part of it is he came back

27:18 and told the businessman I was sitting in the room that sir the flat is quite okay, very nice. It fully furnished and has a lovely sea facing but one helper. That fellow was wondering what is this? He says sir can you take it on rent for your company and then give me uh monthly rental can you beat this? This man got a brave as a full flat and he want to be rented by the same fellow. uh so that because he says I am already living in another flat I'm not planning to move in this is the level to which we have and uh identity this is very very important in the context of the discussion that

28:04 your passport is not your uh proof of your existence in India as a citizen so birth certificate death certificate card passport certificate everywhere you have to pay the minimum minimum can be 100. I am talking about this this chart was made some 10 years before now the minimum has gone up. Some friend in Bombay told me recently sir you don't talk in 100 200 the cops are now talking of 1,000 2,000 Chennai also they told thousand has become a standard thing there is nothing called less than thousand for acquiring contracts roads water pipes cables houses for low income

28:50 groups stadium park everywhere it is 1 to 3% that used to be the range but now it has become 5 to 10%. And this is something very interesting there was on Kini one nice road you might have heard about it between Bangalore and Chennai sorry mysore it was supposed to be and that Kiny was the person who took the project and he came and gave a talk at my place. uh this was in the '9s perhaps or beginning of the century. He the talk was one road three governments. He was to have the road between Bangalore and Mysore nice road it was

29:36 called and unfortunately during that period the government changed from Congress government to JDS to BJP various combination. He told that every change they were asking for uh percentage. He told the total percent became more than the project cost. How do I manage? Tell me. This was in the you know business management institute. He was talking. He asked how do I uh manage you tell me. So that used to be the uh type of a situation. Next one acquiring contract. Next availing free this is another racket. There are lot of services supposed to be

30:22 free services. Schools uh government hospital water work all these are in namaste only free. You know my servant always used to go to private hospital. I used to ask her why are you going to a private hospital where they charge you more? She told sir overall the charge become same. I asked her how to change the bedpan I have to pay 50 rupees every time three times a day 150 rupees for lunch and other which they serve I have to pay for linen changes I have to pay for everything I you know if you have to pay I would rather go to a private and pay it and get that damn computer output as my

31:08 payment. So what is the big difference? So these free services are not really free. This is something very very important to note. The next is RTO that's a single largest uh you know earner. So land registration number one, police number two, RTO number three. Of course there is a competition between them that who is more earning another thing. Police are the maximum in terms of cash with them available and they you know you know the point is many people are telling this money is it kept in the almera not in all the uh houses

31:55 they use it for lending and believe me sir in many cities today cops are the major lenders for the small businesses like your retail trade like your uh you know wallala panipuri walla and other all of them are lent by cops and the cop lending is at least two times more three times more than that of the so-called bank lending note the point banks NBFCs large NBFCs all put together lend only 30 to 40% of the credit market and retail

32:42 practically they are not available. City started a very big thing retail trade we will be entering into and they closed it. ICICI got into retail that also they have closed it. So bigger institutions are not in a position for the simple reason they cannot monitor and collect. It is much better to lend it to one big company like L&D or you know Brillas or Abanis and then go around or write it off in case they don't uh repay then going around as thousands of these small

33:27 fellows. The small fellows get money from either money lenders and still RBI has got a most idiotic and stupid type of a regulation that money lenders can lend but not borrow. Can you beat this anywhere in the world? You can't borrow but you can lend it. How will you lend without borrowing? that only the RBI governor has to explain in a press conference with lot of chart and graphs and other thing. So this lending is done by cops and which is according to me very dangerous because uh it impact the social fabric. Yeah. What is that? tired. >> Sir, sir, don't be so harsh on RBA

34:14 governor. Sir, you there is a possibility that an ex RBA governor could be the finance minister. >> Let it you know that will be carried forward that is called the CF carry forward right. So anyhow it's not being harsh or anything you know the realistic position is not understood by you know this monetary policy MPC so much is discussed million you know acres of ink and uh nowadays of course nobody writes so it's only a ink of the what one can call your printer anyhow and finally 35 to 40% is only lent by all

35:02 these people. The remaining is lent by money lenders, cost associations, extended family and various other type of thing. So closing the eye, this is very very important. If you want any government employee to close the eye, they will never close the eye. They will have it fully open but pretend to close. If you want them to close for traffic violation, building set off that is something very very interesting. This shops and establishment act is there in every state and I would recommend all my youngsters to get the hang of it by it running into some 3,000 or 4,000 pages.

35:48 It is all copied from the European shops and establishment act and one minister long time before told openly 95% of shops and shops and establishment are not having following this at all. If I have to make this followed then I have to demolish all the shops and establishment in the whole state. So that is a you know it says your surrounding should be clean and neat. There should not be any rats in your shop. I have yet to come across a small shop without a rat anyhow. And there should be sitting arrangement. Where is the sitting arrangement in the provision store near my home? I have to sit only

36:33 on the gas cylinder or that's not available these days or on the rice bag. Where do I sit? You know and then they say that it should be having meat surrounding. I go to buy bread everyday morning for my dog. This stupid dog it want fresh bread. This is something very you know yesterday's bread it won't take. Everyday morning I should get a fresh bread. I go and there is a huge nala between the road and the shop big drainage and a wooden plank is uh standing and through the wooden plank I have to read the shop and then get the bread and then and that shop should have been closed but it is running for the

37:18 last 40 50 years. So very so the surrounding should be eaten sunshine should come inside. Can you beat that? Every shop should have a sunshine uh facility. It should come inside sitting facility. This is something absurd. So what happen is primarily all the inspectors will come and collect the money that's all and they will go away because the shops are not following the regulations. So that is the type of a similarly food and adulteration that fellow will come and collect money because something or other he can always find and that I was put wrongly on a committee of food and adulteration act quite a long time before mostly I'm put

38:06 wrongly only on committees not rightly I can tell you on that at the end of it the chief secretary asked what is your suggestion I told scrap this act he was shocked actually how can I scrap this. This is supposed to help people so that the adulterated food is not I asked how many people have died in this city eating in hotels due to food ad. He said many nobody has died but stomach sir if you eat at home also stomach ache will come. One official was very enthusiastic. Sir, we will cover homes also in the that he told. That was a very interesting thing because his area of coverage will increase more brave can

38:53 be collected. Every house he will try to come in and obviously the housewife will hit him with rod or something. he can collect some money and learn. So this is the I told there is no need for it because there is something called enlightened self-interest elementary somebody if somebody goes to small large or whatever uh restaurant and then make this uh dosa and the cockroach comes the girl will immediately take a selfie of herself dosa and the cockroach and it will spread it will go up to Venezuela within a matter of you know hours and the hotel

39:39 fellow next day will find it difficult because she will spread it by the word of mouth that don't go to that hotel and because there is a cockroach which is cockroach I am not talking about that cockroach party I'm talking about actual cockroaches which are available in very many places so the restaurant fellow or even that puchka fellow who sells in you know in the beaches of Bombay he will be very careful not to have any harmful substance maybe sometime reports come chicken biryani beef is included that's a separate type of nation so anyhow normal restaurant will be very careful

40:27 in catering to you properly in this current type of a time. So enlightened self-interest is very very important to note. So many of these regulations are completely can be removed actually and uh if somebody is caught the punishment should be severe and swift that is what is lacking in India. No no the previous one Sachin that is what is lacking in India. You take them to court and it takes of course people like me believe in rebirth that is the plus point assuming I am born again in India the same uh thing and that case will continue I'm very sure this you know so

41:16 somebody has pushed her prospective husband from a hilltop I think that case will come in another 70 80 years to higher level and if I take rebirth I will be able to again uh listen to it and everything. So the cases don't are not judiciary is in a pathetic state of affair. Of course if I say judiciary is corrupt people will pounce on me. I'm not expected to say that but many lawyers are telling talking about bench you know by you know sir we will not go for this judge we will go for the other judge and all these things. So judiciary is not supposed to be uh corrupt at all. They are so clean. So I will not like to

42:03 make any uh point on that. Only one example I will give about how speedy jud justice they are giving. They I asked in a judges conference I was given asked to give a talk. I told about you know jud justice delayed denied justice denied. One retired judge told no sir justice harried is justice buried so it should not hurry judgment it will take and I gave an example a 70 year old man was hauled up in the court for forcefully trying to kiss a girl and the judge was very upset told if you are 20 I can understand you

42:50 trying to do some mischief like that at 70 why are you trying to do these things? He told sir at 20 only I tried to kiss the girl but the case has come before you only now that is when I am 70 years that is why you know kindly you know look at it and then the case was registered when I was 20 years old only so that is the speedy type of a uh judgments they provide the provision of government free credit land compensation fire compensation right This all these are based on brakes. I know one slum case a slum was you know had a fire accident and and

43:35 this fire itself is a big scam. That fellow was not wanting to send this fire. He was arguing with the owner whether this is a grade one, grade two, grade three. You know fires are classified under different type depending upon which your insurance will be released and that has to be decided only after that is decided he will try to put off the fire and government announced some compensation for the slum fellows and some intermediate fellows came and told we will arrange to get you the compensation for a up to 40% they took it away that mean the compensation

44:21 is 10,000 rupees. 6,000 was only made available to the fellows. So all this free credit there is nothing free what government is offering it is told as free but there is plenty of middlemen who come and land compensation riot compensation so two to 50% of the amount I am told in US there is something called this ambulance chasers you know this lawyers who say that we will help you to tackle this case and then you pay some amount that is similar to this again a year it is not a registered type of a bribery it is a sort of unregistered

45:06 and reducing waiting time you know if I want to jump the queue then I have to pay the break and it is not going to be easy it can be anything between 100 to 200 for the services so if I want to you know get the thing faster Of course, government itself now provides something called a speed money tuck they call it immediately within two days you will get it within one day but you have to pay some premium you have to pay some extra. This is the type of a thing carrying on business or ease of doing business is a big joke in our country. So I can tell you our economy is run on

45:54 bribes. Some people say can it ever be why why don't we do this why don't we do that and you know you see I told you the credit market is completely interlin today because of the bribery the bribery is earlier it used to be called grease for the system now it has become a petrol it's no more a grease to operate the system it is a petrol to operate the So it's not very easy and it is extremely important that we have to deal with it. Next if we look at the estimate minimum of 10% of our

46:39 national income of 3.5 lakh cr 35 lakh cr peranom is the bribery not a small sum 35 lakh cr per annual every year and it is cumulative and where it is kept land or gold but kindly note the seller will still have the cash this is very important thing to be remembered >> sir this is.35 lakh crores.35 lakh crores.35 lakh crores because it's 10% of 3.5 lakh crores isn't it >> no no no this is 350 sorry 350 lakh crores not 3.5 it's my mistake >> oh I see I see I see I see the national

47:26 income is 350 lakh cr 350 lakh cr is our National income estimate for 2526 and of that 10%. 35 lakh cr. Thank you for pointing it out that minor important uh correction right. It may be in the form of land or gold mostly land or gold only in our context and land outside. There used to be an allegation that coroni time barala used to be the governor and for various appointments and other thing amount used to be collected and much of it was invested in land in Punjab and Ariana by the uh you know DMK people. There used

48:15 to be an allegation that time. So good amount of money was stacked in other states not necessarily in your state. Somebody like Maduka he supposed to invested in far away land in the mines and other thing in Africa some of the countries which I don't think he knows where the location also heritaria and other thing he invested in the land uh mines anyhow and there is also you can stash it abroad this is not necessarily domestic but for which you have to contacts outside or halala root or something. So 1.5 trillion was estimated that time by global financial

49:01 integrity. Now it would have gone to 3 trillion or something very easily that will be in various global uh financial centers and other domestic one solution. If you hold cash above five lakh per se, treat it as a crime. You don't have to prove that it is you know disproportionate to your source of income or anything like that. Holding of money more than five lakh and in the context of GPA and other thing today even the smallest trade fellows are using now the mobile phone and the payment system. So it is not required for anyone to have a huge amount of cash. So

49:48 after the second world war some European countries adopted the system in order to minimize their problem. Now of course it is not required because most of the European countries in US cards are used, credit cards are used but we can try this. Incidentally when Pranabarji was finance minister there was a report called black money from the ministry of finance. The bulky volume he brought out. It was a very exhaustive and very very uh interesting document which quoted extensively our own study that is myself Ajit Dawal and Mahed Malani and others. We formed a team and we were having a report which

50:34 we submitted to Adwani. four of us if you remember Gurumorti Adawal Magesh and myself Adwani report it became and he used it for that time the you know fasting by anar and so many other direct anyhow that report was quoted extensively by this chronabar g's official document one of the suggestion given is the same thing whether casholding of that time 10 lakh was mentioned about whether it can be made a crime. This will reduce this won't eliminate but because bribe is given in cash. Kindly note bribe is very difficult to give it in the form of a check or

51:21 something. It is always given in cash and even if you buy land or gold it become cash in the hands of the seller. So that cash is always available and rotating. So this is one simple solution which we can think about to minimize and make uh ease of living art of living at the lower levels very important and GP etc even small retail uses mobile for transaction so this should be much easier today it's not required that they carry huge amount of cash or anything so unless and until we deal with this issue. Because every time when a fire

52:08 breaks out, they say fire has why fire has broken out because the fire people have been braved in order to issue certificate without adequate amount of uh what one can call precautions. Everywhere you find that human beings are lost in our country there is an associated bribe in the lower levels. what they do. For instance, a municipal corporation most of the time the lowest level employee who is involved he is suspended and he joins duty after some 6 months or one year and during suspension he is paid 50% of his pay or he is transferred to another location where he

52:53 can continue to collect his. So this is not a solution at all. We must have swift and severe punishment that only can give the important signal in order to minimize. Second is we should uh have a comprehensive reform at municipal, corporation and state level and all the states including BJP ruled states unfortunately have not undertaken any major reforms at all. Of course, they all talk about social issues like uh you know this uh uniform civil code or you know minimizing

53:38 uh the influence of opposition parties and that is fine but more important is look at the Kolkata corporation how it functions. Look at the municipal corporation of Chennai, Bangalore and look at the state government various organs and other things. I think we must start the reform from bottom. Bottom up. Top up is not going to help. Top may be clean but doesn't help. It's not percolating down. Reforms can never percolate down. Reforms have to move up only. So we should be very clear and focus on reforms on the lower levels at

54:23 the appropriate level so that the benefits reach and then only we can talk in terms of the developed India 2047 or 2087 or it doesn't matter. So bat otherwise will be a daydream only given our type of a local and state governments. Thank you very much. Thank you so much sir. And we have a couple of observations. Let's just go quickly go through them. Kubaya. Thank you so much sir. It appears to be time based on the reason for rejection of the file will control corruption to some extent. Agreed. Agreed. Vijay patrol punk after

55:11 >> commission is not approved after one year bundul brave disposal is quick is required. Yeah, this is very you know common type of a thing. Almost all the places you pay the bribe. I know some people who have complained to me personally that they have paid one or two lakh bribe in order to get a government job and nothing has come out of it. The intermediary or the the broker sometime has even disappeared. It's a very sad state of >> uh next one. Thank you Sanjay. Um I think it's Sanjal uh >> we work but for GST registration you

55:57 need a commercial address. So totally agreed they you know nobody applies their mind how a small petty I always used to you know 30 years of my 40 year teaching I was giving a small project to my class students go and start a small petty shop in the city without paying any bribe you must start the shop and run it you know one sad state affairs all the students have failed in that project not in the course course because of the methodology and various other issues they have passed but setting up that shop not possible we all came and told sir not possible

56:43 unless we bribe it's not done and then if you remember tsunami that was our major tragic event which took place if you remember it was around 2005 I think maybe you know I'm slightly That time many of my colleagues from US asked me how many insurance companies are completely going out of business because in US and a tsunami or something like this truck many for instance 911 you know finally it was told it is a two event and not one event any insurance companies ced because they were not able to meet the level of publication. I told in India there is no such thing.

57:31 All insurance companies are well and safe and reason is lot of these small businesses on the seashore none of them were insured and why they were not insured because none of them had proper papers. They were not actually the owners of the land in which they were operating. they have got it from somebody else on lease for two year, three year and that go will come and they don't continue to pay that. So it's a very sad state of affairs if you ask me it's a tragic we go on having seminars in Delhi Bombay and other thing that doesn't help this total business

58:20 next anybody thank you sir that brings us to a close of today's program please like crindly note 350 lakh cr yes yes yes thank you sir namaskarum Thanks a lot.