Can Meditation Change Your Brain? | Dr. Tony Nader & Rajan Navani

0:00 consciousness is primary and that we are all one. You know you're a successor to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Beatles Paul McCartney David Lynch you know all of them who have been influenced by this deep Indian you know tradition that has impacted the world. How do you think India became so spiritual? The Vedas are actually the laws of nature. Veda means knowledge and it means total knowledge within the human being. The laws of nature are already there >> and this has been already mentioned [music] in the veda aam brahasmi vohham I am the veda I am totality these are things that [music] you know get discovered when you're in a very subtle state of being the roots of a tree are

0:47 hidden in the [music] ground and if you don't know the value of the roots you [music] think that when you put water on the roots you are wasting your time the consciousness [music] awareness is hidden within and people through their senses are projecting all their attention [music] to the outside. To achieve maximum to the outside, you [music] have to be maximum on the inside. As human beings, we are all, you know, we are all built from that same layer of consciousness as [music] one, you know, universal truth. There is a class of thinkers and philosophers, a school if we can call them, that think that physicality is

1:32 actually an illusion. [music] Actually, we're living in a Maya. If you tell this to the scientists, they will immediately say, "Thank you very much. Can you hack consciousness? [music] From a medical doctor and a neuroscientist to the global head of one of the largest spiritual movements in India, Dr. Tony Nder is the guest with us here who has lived a life where science meets stillness. Very warm welcome on this Think Right podcast. And you know it's such a wonderful experience and a joy for me to have you here on this podcast today because you know you're a successor to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi who you know spent all his

2:19 life building the transcendental movement in India and around the world and you know today we see global icons you know everybody recognizes whether it's the Beatles Paul McCartney David Lynch you know all of them who have been influenced by this deep Indian you know tradition that has impacted the world. And what we're going to do in today's podcast, honestly, is to try and understand transcendental meditation, the journey, and really how it can help create stillness in a world that is so uncertain, that has got so much noise around it, and really see how we can use this podcast to, you know, even make a little difference in the lives of somebody. I think it'll be a great uh, you know, thing that we could have achieved. So, very warm welcome, Dr.

3:06 ator and thank you for being here. >> Thank you Shri Rajan G. It's a great pleasure for me to be with you personally knowing you and your worldwide experience and desire to make some difference great difference in the world and also for a podcast that is called think right because to think right one has to be right and to act right one has to think right to speak right has to think right and this brings us back to the self to where is the source of thinking Right? And where is the source then of action and fulfillment which is in the self. So it's my great joy looking forward to this time with you.

3:51 >> Lovely. And you know we're going to keep it conversational and you know uh I'm sure everybody would be interested to know you know how did someone like you you know from war struck Lebanon uh you know really you know [clears throat] come to you know becoming what you are today. So tell us a little bit about your early years you know what was your life like uh in your growing up years and and and how did you meet Maharishi and Mahesh Yogi? Um I come from a family of doctors, many doctors. Like I've counted once, if you count the uncles and cousins and nephews and extended family that we have 17 doctors in the family. So I almost had no choice but to become a medical doctor. H but inside me

4:39 there was a search for what is it about us humans? What do we do? How can we understand humanity? How can we understand our decision making process? where we are going. So I thought medicine would be a great way to go because it will help me understand the physiology and at that time I thought that physiology is all there is that the physical body the nervous system and that's how it produces the ability to think was a right or wrong and to to go into that direction was my calling from a family uh perspective and at the same time I was finding limitation s in what we know in medicine as I started to to get into engaged into

5:27 medicine and um I wanted to expand myself not only from a physical perspective I discovered that there is something we can do from the mind side and I heard [clears throat] about transcendental meditation being taught and it's very interesting I was at the American University of Beirut and there is a street next to it it's called Bliss Street because the founder was Dr. Bliss or Mr. Bliss. So they called the street Bliss Street and it it is such that those who actually were teaching transcendental meditation, they rented a place u below what they call the uh the the light, you know, that that directs

6:12 the ships, you know, the the what lighthouse >> the lighthouse. And so I asked where do we learn transcendental meditation? And they told me it's on Bliss Street at the feet of the lighthouse. I thought that was already great start [laughter and gasps] to start from bliss and lighthouse and be at the feet of that. Of course these are you know coincidental things we don't pay much attention but it was really interesting. So I went there, I learned transcendental meditation and it's at that time that the war actually had started. >> Um I got my first instruction and then I couldn't come back for checking because bombs were falling. So I had to hide in

6:58 the dormitory and not be able to move. So I called the teacher and he gave me guidance. But it was so easy that even from a couple of instructions I was able to actually meditate independently >> and then two three more instructions and I felt really confident to do it. And so this is the time when the war actually exploded in Lebanon, a civil war and that uh pushed me even further to see what makes us who we are. Why do we fight each other? Why do we kill each other? There is so much. Lebanon at that time was a fantastic country. Beautiful u snow and beaches and in a short place history of thousands of years Romans uh

7:46 prehistoric and historic times and temples of amazing grandness and beauty. uh people don't know what this is in this little country and um I thought life was wonderful and blissful [snorts] and suddenly got exposed to that dramatic transformation where my father got hurt in the in the seriously almost died in the war. Um I had to face the emergency room and the difficulties and I had something with me that was absolutely grand and supporting and give me a continuity and that was transcendental meditation. So whereas 20 minutes morning and evening might seem like a

8:32 waste of time for somebody who's studying medicine because you need every second and every minute besides the fact that you have to attend to patients etc. It actually gave me time. It it enhanced my ability to do things in a shorter time to study things and memorize things and focus and concentrate even in the tumultuous reality of the surrounding. So at the same time I learned to be more compassionate and empathetic and and with empathy but without being shaken inside. And so I felt this is something fantastic. Maybe there is something more to our thinking than just the physiology or the nervous system. How can we from the mind because it's a mental technique. How can be from the mind um

9:21 make such changes invi in well-being in health in strength and concentration uh and in the sense of continuity and resilience in front of such difficulties and that's how I got more interested and and then I wanted to you know of course to meet the the founder of that Maharishi Mahashogi um and I know at that time there was what we called the student society for meditation uh student sims it was called student international meditation >> how old were you at that time >> uh I was uh in the late teens and starting my 20ies as the medical school was going on

10:07 >> and I became the president of the student international meditation society >> and people thought I was crazy because at that time you know it was bizarre you know you have wars, you have people complaining about things and you're telling people close the eyes and go within yourself. Well, it was successful and um as I was advancing in the technique and in the teaching uh myself, I wasn't a teacher. Uh I heard that there was a conference in Switzerland about Ayurveda. >> Mhm. >> That Marishi has organized and he has put together a large group of scientists and medical doctors. This was in the 80 1980s 7980.

10:55 >> So I said I want to make the trip and and go there and hopefully see Marishi >> and you know there were all these top physicians and doctors and they registered in the conference and there was a lot of you know good protection for all of them and for Marishi. So it was rather difficult to get to see him but a good friend of mine who was a doctor there managed to get me there. >> Mhm. >> And this is where I met Marshi for the first time. >> And what was the first thing you told him? [laughter] >> I just offered him the flower. Um he was sitting there. All these people were around at the end of a session and he was sitting in the middle. I came with my flower. This was kind of traditional. And I went like that and offered him a flower. And for me it was like the sun

11:40 was shining. Um I felt like his presence, his attention, his ability to be with you fully made me feel as if the whole universe stopped and I was the only one that is important >> uh for him. Uh he was such able to look at somebody and made you feel you are the most important person for me. such great depths of being that was not shaken by the million things that are happening around this presence. Um and he was he was very very kind. We spent few minutes. >> He offered me a flower later and uh

12:25 asked where I'm come from and all that and that was a short visit. uh but it left in me um a sense of what human being can be when there is a higher level of consciousness and higher level of enlightenment and that was the inspiration really that made me go on and advance in this program. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know it's it's funny when you say that like the impact of somebody who is in a very high energy state just being around you can change you know so many things. not only in the person and the environment that is there but you know can go way beyond that right and I think these are things that you know get discovered when you're in a very subtle state of being and what you

13:11 said when you're in that perfect state of being or whatever is just you know it's just so much of that you know positive energy which the world world needs but in that moment you know probably the seeds and maybe when it was that you would succeed in I don't think you ever [laughter] thought of it in that way and and as we started you know I think uh given that you have had a scientific you know training upbringing Harvard MIT all of that uh your scientific mind never challenged this or because this was experiential and that was more [clears throat] academic or you were how were you able to to kind of you know get your own mind to accept something like this as a more you know more real to you

13:59 at least rather than the scientific things you were taught at all these top institutions. There are two things in science. There is the scientific methodology which is systematic and reliable and repeatable. So you have a system uh you have a structure and you apply it a variable into context and you repeat it and you analyze it and you see the results and you see how repeatable and reliable are these changes that you have created the variable and you have a control group where everything is the same but only that one variable has not changed. So that's how you know that what you are doing is correct or not. There is another aspect of science which is the theory of science and theories

14:46 evolve a lot and unfortunately science has come to be understood as only physical only material and only the physical reality exists whereas whatever is in the mind is something else and this used to be in the past now it has changed a lot we come to that so as a scientist I looked at the research that was done on transcendental meditation and I was very convinced that it was good but this is not good enough for me because I always felt well maybe it worked for all these other people but how about me and so my best scientific study is on myself >> so I did feel the results that are talked about I did feel the wellness I

15:32 did feel the wholeness I did feel the clarity the ability to concentrate the greater resilience uh the more balanced physiology that I had you know the metabolism because I could also measure these things on myself. So I was my own scientific experiment and we should remember that actually we live our life through our experiences. You know what? If somebody says, "Okay, your body is great. All the measures are right. You do the test in the hospital and it looks like everything is really wonderful, but you are miserable and you're unhappy and everything bothers you or you're depressed or whatever. What does it matter? What is the

16:17 priority?" People forget what is the priority. The priority is what we experience in our consciousness. What do we experience? What are you experiencing now? Are you experiencing fullness, happiness, the sense of meaning, the sense of growth, the sense of well-being? That is what matters more than what is in the bank or what is happening in the street. These are maybe necessary for you to feel well in case. But if you don't feel well, then they lose their value. The value of anything whether being in a cave in a recluse situation or being a wealthy person, productive person, great. The value of these and is in how

17:05 much you are experiencing growth and happiness and peace and fullness and you're feeling you are growing in life and expanding your awareness. So I had absolutely no issue with science because the science supported the experience and the experience itself supported my conviction and therefore science has a lot to learn and with time I discovered that it had much more to learn than I than I imagined and and now they there is a merging of of you know when you talk of science and spirituality there's so many more people talking about it today and you know it's is it science that is now evolving to understand and

17:53 accept and appreciate a lot of the things that were you know not uh you know considered uh just there and especially in a country like India you know where spirituality started thousands of years ago you know how how do you think India became so spiritual? Well, I I my feeling is that India was introspective more than objective analysis at the beginning. And what this means is that it looked to understand life and living and reality from introspection from going within uh going through direct inward search of experience. What does my mind tell me?

18:40 What does my intellect tell me? How do I feel? What do I do that makes me feel like that or not? So there was this very spiritual that's what we call spiritual in this case. Spiritual means that which is not material to simplify things. >> What is physical and material and objective is one area. >> Whatever is not considered physical or material, we're going to call it spiritual. So spiritual doesn't necessarily mean religious although religion of course is spiritual or can be religious can be spiritual but whatever is in the mind that is not tangible through the senses is what we

19:26 will call spiritual so that we understand each other >> and for me the supreme spirituality is pure being pure consciousness we can come back to that if you like Now the reality of science is that it felt that all that is spiritual which means emanating from the mind be it theory or be it feeling or be it religion or belief systems etc is not reliable because everyone thinks what they like and there are so many belief systems and so many ways to look at the universe. and so many theories and therefore how do we sort all this out? So science went

20:14 into the scientific method. But what unfortunately happened is that science because it wanted to go away from this subjective personal mind related theory related. it decided that all of this doesn't really exist or if it's a phenomenon that comes out of the complexification and the com you know the organization of the nervous system leading to a human being conscious or consciousness and so this is why I separate the scientific method with what I would call the scientific dogma and so the science believe that what I see through my senses says is the final

21:02 um the final >> reality the final measure for reality but just simple examples tells us that we can be wrong. >> You know five 600 years ago everybody thought the earth was flat and that the sun rotates around the earth. Why? Because our senses, you look around, everything is flat. >> You look at the sun, it goes in the sky from east to west. And so everybody was convinced and that was the science of that time. And when when some people, you know, Copernicus, Galileo and others, Kepler looked at it from the

21:48 movement of the planets and all that, it didn't make sense. And when they observed, you know, with with a telescope that was created, a very minor one, it didn't make sense. And they started to say the earth is round and it rotates around its axis. And it actually what creates this illusion or >> feeling that the sun is moving in the sky. And although [clears throat] this is of course obvious today, it took 300 years. People don't realize that it took 300 years before it was accepted scientifically that the earth is round and that this it is itself rotating around the sun and

22:34 rotating around its axis. uh in the meantime those people scientists we can call them like Galileo were you know chased and disrespected and even imprisoned for saying something against the common belief. So this tells us that there is more than sensory experience that is that the intellect when it analyzes things. So there are different layers of understanding reality. The objective approach is very good. The internal uh analysis is also very good and necessary because actually scientists first truly discover things in their minds

23:20 >> and then prove them in the the laboratory. One big example is Einstein, you know, saying about the general theory of relativity and he predicted that the light will be bent if it goes around a big mass. >> And nobody believed it. It's ridiculous. What do you mean the light is no mass? How can it be bent? It will not be bent. But his theory was from his inner analysis intellectual or experiential analysis. And they waited many many years until there is a special eclipse and it was even during World War II >> that he showed that actually it does happen like that. So the experiment proved

24:05 >> what he had imagined or experienced within himself. Why I'm saying this is if we go back to the Vic tradition >> Mhm. where everything is examined within the self. [clears throat] And if we imagine that there is a state of consciousness, where there is greater clarity, greater peace and harmony such that you can actually experience how reality works, how the laws of nature work, then this can be true knowledge which might have to be proven later on. in scientific methodology and experiments. And so from my perspective,

24:54 spirituality is the greatest science. In fact, the problem is that people when they express their perspective from a subjective point of view, they're doing it based on common knowledge during time and history and how to make other people understand it. And also based on how clear they are in their minds and their feelings. And therefore obviously if you wear yellow glasses you will see yellow. Yeah. >> If you wear red glasses you will see red. And therefore if you don't have clarity you don't see the reality as it is. And you end up with two people who look at a white paper one wearing yellow glass and one wearing red glass and they

25:42 disagree. And both are right. But both are wrong because the yellow sees yellow and the red sees yellow and they can fight each other and they don't know it's because the glasses have different colors and so science comes and says okay if I remove the glasses if I change this so spirituality is becoming a science you know medicine used to be an art >> you know an art and then as more laws of nature were discovered >> more data more data then it became a science. Psychology used to be totally a philosophy or an art and as more data more data came about mind etc it became a science and now in the west people are

26:28 proud to say that they have some kind of meditation it's became you know household and I feel truly that is thanks to Maharishi Mahashogi who >> brought this knowledge to the west and insisted that it be analyzed scientifically >> through the scientific method. No matter what the dogma of science is, the dogma of science is that everything is physical, everything is material. But not all scientists now believe more and more scientists think that the world the universe is more like a big thought than a big bulk you know of of energy or physical >> or or you know at least when they look at the source of the physical they

27:14 realize that the source is non-physical [laughter] >> exactly >> you know and and and you know one of the things with think right we try and say something which is very obvious right I mean you know like you were mentioning senses right why why Are we so involved with because we do have eyes we do have our senses which are 247 I mean or besides the time you sleep engaged as a part of your experience right so it's hard to to realize that what you believe is is there is actually you know not true but the moment you go back to what is the source you know it's it becomes very obvious right and I I often you know I was just discussing the other day with somebody uh like we get so immersed into the identity or who a person is.

28:00 And if you ever go, you know, to a hospital and you somebody's going in for a major surgery, uh, you know, god forbid the surgery doesn't work, they so Mr. or Mrs. So and so goes in and then they will say, "Hey, can you remove the body?" You know, people in the home will say, "Okay, what time is the body going to come home? What time are we going to take the body to the funeral?" Even in our vocabulary, we drop the identity of that person. Yeah. >> The moment that non-physical piece leaves that >> exactly. So you the source of that physical was non-physical you know and I think moment you accept that and now what you say science and spirituality nothing prevents this from you know becoming a science like the others and you'll have many people graduating and I

28:46 think that will raise the you know the level at which humanity thinks or spiritual and hopefully you know a couple of generations later this won't be a discussion anymore for people like us us to have you know But it's happening now. >> Yeah, I know. I know. And so in that light or in this context, you know, tell tell our viewers, tell everybody in the audience what is transcendental meditation and >> how does it how is it different from other forms of meditation? You've talked a little bit about it, but if you can, you know, elaborate because I want people to understand, you know, what that is. >> Wonderful. And in that context, just to add to or comment on what you said, which is very beautiful. Um you see you have eyes

29:32 and ears but if there is no light behind them, no consciousness behind them, there is no seeing, no hearing. Imagine you have the same eyes, the same nervous system, but now you go into anesthesia. >> Yeah. >> Then where is the eye? Where is the hearing? Where is the touch? Where is the feeling? You could be the wealthiest person in the world or the most loved or the most knowledgeable. But if your consciousness is eclipsed then there is nothing nothing exists. So if you remove the light see you have a projector and you have a movie you can make the movie go around but if there is no light >> then where is the movie?

30:17 >> Without the light there is no movie. So what we want is to see that this light is as clear and bright as possible. And that is something people forget that behind my ability to experience to see to judge to make decisions and even on the sensory level to truly see things in their fullness I have to have a bright light and that bright light is consciousness. So consciousness is what allows us to be aware to be conscious and we can be conscious in different ways. We can be drowsy and the mind is you know not clear. uh you move things

31:04 you know your friend comes they have had a wonderful experience they are blissful is that you don't see it you are just dark in your mind you don't feel it or somebody needs something your mind is clouded you don't feel it you don't respond to it so your ability to perceive is not so clear problem happens it's a big mountain for you whereas even take the day when you slept well and feeling good. You wake up and you're clear. Things are clearer. Colors are more bright. You can feel with people. You can react with them. You are more peaceful but more spontaneously empathetic or empathy has empathy and

31:50 compassionate and all of that. So all of this is about the state of consciousness that we have. And what transcendental meditation does is to expand awareness and clear it from the stresses and strains that block our ability to see things in a perfect way. How does it do it? This is the question. What is transcendental meditation? >> I use an analogy which was from Maharishi who used it a lot and he taught us to use it and I think it's really perfect analogy. Imagine that consciousness, your awareness, which is the light that allows you to see. >> Mhm. >> Is like an ocean.

32:37 And that ocean is expanded and unlimited. But it has its surface where there are waves. So your mind is like an ocean with a waves on the surface. And these waves are what you experience as thoughts or feelings. But if you dive in that ocean and you go to deeper layers, it become more and more settled, more and more settled, less and less excited on the surface until you reach the bottom of the ocean which is totally silent. We say that a creative thought comes from this bottom of the ocean like a small bubble and it goes up and obviously in the ocean if the bubble it it's because of the pressure in the ocean but it's just an analogy in that

33:23 case >> as it grows up it becomes bigger when it reaches the surface you're aware I have a thought but you don't know from where the thought comes and transcendental meditation simply is to allow the mind to dive deep towards less excited states and less excited less excited until the least excited state where it's completely settled and transcends. Transcends means to go beyond all thoughts or feelings or memories or stress or whatever and experience yourself. So it's settled but you might say oh when it settles what did it fall asleep in this case it is

34:11 settled but awake alert so you reach a state of what we call restful alertness restful wakefulness which you don't usually experience either during waking during dream or during sleep that's why science and in you know in the 70s uh young uh PhD D student did his thesis on transcendental meditation and his thesis was the discovery of a forced major state of consciousness different from deep sleep, dream and waking where you have the opposite values of deep rest very profound rest and great alertness at the same time. Now this is the experience of you know that I said

34:58 caught me in in the uh in the transcending going deep and experiencing that state of bliss which honestly I must say it come back to the previous point that we brought is something that I saw being lived in Maharishi. So first I experiencing within myself but when I met Mari I felt it is a living embodiment of that state which >> 24/7 that's how it felt felt completely settled completely unshaken by anything but present wakeful uh attention wise is 100%. So that's what you experience within yourself and the experience itself is extremely

35:46 pleasing but that's not the only uh benefit of it otherwise okay for 20 minutes morning and evening you have these experiences they come and go because we have stresses and strains etc. So sometimes they are deeper sometimes less but in any case meditation gives the settling thing. What is great is what we said before is [clears throat] when the mind settles actually the body settles down and when the body has settled it is given a chance to get rid of the tiredness and the fatigue that is there. You know when you're tired and fatigue you don't try to pull the fatigue out of your muscles or push them away. You rest and then the body when you rest is given

36:32 a chance. If you don't rest the fatigue stays. So by resting the nature of the body naturally is able to remove the stresses and the strains. And if you rest in a deeper way and at the same time with a new quality which is the quality of restfulness but also alertness. Not only the superficial fatigue goes away but even the deeprooted stresses [snorts] that must might have been with you for who knows how many years or how many lifetimes. [laughter] And so transcendental meditation is that process of diving deep within removing the stresses and experiencing the inner self with a big S which we call the atma which is the self of everything.

37:18 >> Why do you call it I mean you do call TM a technology. >> Yes. >> Right. Explain. A technology is um something that is so easy to do but it achieves much more than than that. You know you flip a switch the light comes. It's a technology. Why? Because there is a system of electrons moving and there is you know electricity coming in the house. But for you you just flip the switch and the light comes. That's technology. So these are physical technologies. There is mental technology >> and when you say technology you mean it doesn't depend on believing in it or not. So whether you believe the light

38:05 will come or not when you flip the switch you know the light will come whether you are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, you know Jewish or whatever tawi or Buddhist this is a law of nature. You flip the switch and the light comes. That's technology. It's independent of believing in it or etc. It means we use the laws of nature in such a way that we can achieve something. Now these are physical technologies we are talking about. >> The only thing is that science hasn't proven this. >> Exactly. >> Right. So it's you know like what you said switching the flip >> and if you know earlier someone clapped >> and the lights went on and you said that's magic. Today you know when you clap it sensors and it trigger similar

38:52 that because you haven't discovered it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist >> but you know more and more science discovers that it works >> you know at least it discovers that when you flip it light comes you know how does it work is a matter of >> discussion and we have you know logics of how it works >> and so there is a technology of the mind which means um if you sit and you know, think of something negative all the time, you're going to be uh it's going to influence you. It's going to raise your blood pressure. It's going to make you secrete cortisol, you know, and that's in the mind. You're walking in the street and this is an example given a lot in the Va and it's a little bit dark and there is something there and

39:38 you think it's a snake. You get scared, your blood pressure goes up, you are afraid, you run, you might do something, you might hurt yourself, you might hurt others, you might call the, you know, the thing. It might become a big huge thing in society. You know, maybe people come and they are afraid where is the snake and things happen >> and it turns out it's not a snake at all. You know this is common analogy in the Vedas. >> And so the impression that you get on the mind, what you do with the mind and how it sees things influences all of the body and of its activity and all of that. So you smile to somebody,

40:25 they tend to smile towards you. You frown, they will frown. um that is a technology of behavior, a technology of of thinking. So there is a technology of the mind. A technology of the mind and technology is transcendental meditation in this case is how to dive deep within whether you believe in it or not and produce the results that are proven. That's why we call it scientific because it's systematic. The teaching of transcendental meditation is systematic. Which means Marishia has trained us to do this step, this step, that step, this step. When the student says this, you

41:12 say that. When the student have that experience, you explain it this way. So all of this is standard practice. It's not left to belief or conviction and all of that. very systematic and that's a very important aspect of science that there is a systematic thing. It's not left to mood and you know today is the raining so I'll teach you TM in a different way today no you'll be learning from a teacher in a very systematic way and that systematic way does it produce the results therefore is it reliable and when you do it repeatedly so

41:57 repeatable and you get the reliable results you say this is science >> mm M it's you know you drop the pen it falls you can say well it so happened to fall this time but you drop it in the same way which is systematic >> it will fall every time >> it will fall every time and in the same trajectory with the same speed and now you say conclusion I write okay there is a force of gravity the apple fell and Newton discovered law of nature um which has related to motion and to gravity and all of that. So when you repeat the technique of transcendental meditation under different circumstances in a reliable systematic way and you get the same results, you say it's science. This

42:42 is science. >> So it's as simple as that, you know. >> How how do people get introduced to transcendental meditation? How how how do they discover it? First they listen to your podcast, [laughter] >> our podcast, >> our podcast and they get inspired and they check you know where can I learn transcendental meditation and we have centers all over the world you can check we have a website tm.org or and there are in India different websites and they >> 100 countries I believe >> uh we are more than 100 countries yeah now we are even 150 countries and in most major cities around the world and um then you find a teacher you call them

43:28 u you would have done if you listen to the podcast you would have done the first step which is the introductory lecture now you're ready to go to the next step which is a preparation to tell you what you're going to learn. It takes maybe half an hour or an hour and then you come to the teacher to learn. Transcendental meditation does not get taught in books or video and all of that because there is a personal level and also because we value the importance of teaching in the same tradition that it was taught thousands of years ago where we do actually a puja uh and that puja is for the teacher to prepare themselves. The student usually just witnesses and so it's a very beautiful

44:15 moment to welcome the student and teach in the name of the tradition that has given us this knowledge in ter mainly we highlight gurude dev who is the master of maharishi maharishi wanted this to be taught in the name of his own master who was jagad guru shankarachara of jotmat swami brahmanandanda sarasvati in illustrious teacher >> actually whose many students became shankaracharias of the different pit around around India. >> Yeah. >> And um Marishi was his disciple who was given from Gurudev directly or you know implicitly the importance of bringing this knowledge to the west. So we put a

45:02 picture of Narish's master Gurude dev. We do a small beautiful puja 10 15 minutes and then we give the student a sound which has no meaning. So we don't use it for any meaning purpose. Uh and that's of course a mantra. But mantra usually in India of course is something that has meaning that maybe is associated with a religious aspect. But in this case we take it for just its u sound value. We don't try to associate it with any meaning or any deity or any image and this has a reason. And so after this instruction which can take one hour or so you become a

45:49 transcendental meditation meditator immediately. It's so simple, >> so natural, so easy that you're done. >> However, of course, you have many questions. What happens when the thoughts come? If I fall asleep, if my head's falls to one side, if I itch, do I scratch? You know, and why do I have thoughts? Where do they come from? What will happen if I continue meditating? So to give you the path and the inspiration and the guidance. Um there are these three steps, extra steps which happen in three consecutive days. And obviously we like people to come back for checking to make sure they practice correctly. And u over time you know you get more knowledge and experience but it's a

46:36 do-ityourself technique. It's a really do-ityourself technique. >> You know what what what is the myth? What are the myths that prevent people from starting something so simple, right? like what you said why why are people what what can we tell them you know what can we tell our viewers like you know it's benefited it's like so natural right if someone says when you're a kid you got to go to school because if you're educated a bl you know so many things we do in life >> because someone it just happens >> why is something like this not just happening when it is so powerful it is so simple are there any myths that you know you've come across that we should kind of try There are of course in the west it was first felt oh this is an Indian thing

47:21 >> these are gurus and you know this is maybe a sect and like that. >> So that was a little bit of resistance but people did get into it and today as we said everybody wants is proud to do some kind of meditation. So Mahisha has changed the perception but for an individual um you see the uh the roots of a tree are hidden in the ground and if you don't know the value of the roots you think that when you put water on the roots you are wasting your time whereas it's the roots that nourish the tree. Now we all know that the roots nourish the tree and we have to put water in the roots. But the consciousness awareness

48:07 is hidden within and people through their senses are projecting all their attention to the outside and therefore they want more in the outside here more there more there and you say well come back to the self they say you know it's running away from what I want and they don't realize that to achieve maximum to the outside you have to be maximum on the inside because we can only give what we have. >> Mhm. >> If you are tired and stressed, you can give only tiredness and stress. If you are healthy and happy and strong and clear and intelligent, then you can give health and happiness and strength to the outside also. And so, um, you know, you

48:56 have an arrow and a bow and you want to throw the bow to hit the target. Somebody doesn't know the technique and he sees you pull the arrow back. >> He thinks you're wasting your time >> while you want to go forward, you're pulling back. What's the idea? So that is one of the myths or complications until you explain that it has values for the inner and also the outer. You know there is another myth which is that the inner is for the recluse and for those who are not interested into achievement in life and therefore you know spirituality is for the religious and for the recluse people >> and I'm not ready I'm young I have to achieve my life and you know

49:41 spirituality is for the end of life and all of that >> and um it is just ingrained in society whereas we want to reexlain that full potential has to be used as early as possible in our life. Stress cleaning and stress release has to be done constantly. It's like you take a bath, you feel better, then you take a bath off your mind. Clean up your stresses and strains and act with happiness, with strengths, with activity. And this doesn't have to wait until the end of life. You can achieve more in your life. You can be more successful and more happy by being clearer and by having a

50:28 strong foundation. And more so in today's world. >> Exactly. >> There's so much distraction and lack of clarity. Exactly. >> I think being able to get access to a technique, a technology, a tool like this >> is is a life-changing experience. So I think you know whoever wants to try it should be there try it and really you know through experience you know come to this conclusion like what you have said right from your journey from you know Lebanon to your own experience and there are now millions like you who have gone through those experiences and seen their lives transformed you know and I think what is unique you know with about you particularly as we have gone through this explanation of TM from the spiritual side we've talked about is

51:14 linked from science but that depth of knowledge you know that you have about the various words we have talked about right you know there is consciousness there is mind there is body there is atma there is you know soul there there are multiple words out there and I firmly believe you know vocabulary and we've discussed this multiple times is actually a limitation right because it comes with your own biases so if someone says says the word good, you view good differently. I view it differently because we've had our own experiences with that. And sometimes we just close ourselves because of the way we have seen, you know, like what you talked of the color of the eyes or what we are seeing it. Whereas if we understand the

52:00 physicality a little better scientifically, if we understand these concepts, maybe we are more prepared, you know, to to to go into that. So maybe if you can explain consciousness be brain mind atma whatever you feel needs to be explained a little more. Yeah, this uh the differences it's beautiful. This takes us to what is reality >> and it's a philosophical problem that has been posed for thousands of years and honestly not really fully resolved except in systems that adopt certain way of perceiving reality sometimes without any proof.

52:45 Science has mostly adopted in the past but much less more now that everything comes from some energy. We don't know where this energy comes from that then creates a big bang. So it's all compressed and there is a big bang and then it expands and cools down. And as it cools down uh then you start having particles and particles come together they create atoms and atoms come together they create molecules. Molecules come together they create cells. Cells come together they create organs. Organs come together they create organ systems and the nervous system and

53:31 then consciousness appears. That's one point of view because then the idea is that consciousness is a phenomenon. >> It's um experience in the nervous system from the nervous system. And they say the proof is if you damage the nervous system, your consciousness goes away. So there is a very strong belief in this kind of world view. Where this energy come from? Nobody knows. Maybe they say God created it or so where is God is God actually also energy or is non-energy uh is it physical or non-physical mostly you know spiritually will say no non-physical so how does the

54:17 non-physical create something physical that is science tries to avoid this question okay so that the science is a dogma that's why I call it the dogma of science there is absolute absolutely no proof that things come this way. >> Of course, the big bang is real. The particles are real. The molecules are real. And what we see is real. But what is the substance, the origin of it? That is what science has absolutely no idea. So let's be clear. I am a scientist and I stand behind what I say. Science has absolutely no idea of where how it happens. It just decides to

55:03 ignore the problem. Okay. So that's one point of view. Go to just to gam extreme. Go to India and what you find is vanta >> advita vanta where it's a completely different perspective where we say consciousness is primary. So there is a field which is non-physical, non-material which we are calling consciousness because it is conscious, it's aware and then that field appears as the physicality and the matter. Okay. So in philosophy these have names.

55:49 Um and one is materialist or physicalist because materialist used to be a term that they used but it became kind of political and all that >> and also because we found that matter and energy are equivalent. So if you say material do you mean you ex you you include or not energy? So they say physicalist. So without trying to make it too complicated, physicalist means everything is physical. Yeah. And from the physical everything emerges and then you have the other side in modern philosophy that's called idealist. idealist comes not from oh I have ideals and like this comes from idea which is going back to Plato and Socrates and

56:36 they use these terms and permanes and all that in the Greek you know this western philosophy that's why it goes there >> and they say that there is the thought is primary consciousness is primary >> and then this consciousness somehow appears as matter Okay. And so they are called idealist. There are those who say that there are two different realities. One is spiritual consciousness and one is physical material. We call them dualist. Dual comes from dual too. So there is believe that there are two things that are different. This is you know deart and the cartisian system. They he said okay there is my

57:23 mind and there is my body. So there are two things >> the problem is how to talk to each other nobody has any idea. So these are the complexities of the discussion >> and then you have the physicalist monist monet means they say only one thing exists mono mono >> and stereo mono only one thing exist and that is the physical the rest is a phenomenon is an appearance. Even consciousness is just something that appears. And then you have the monest idealist >> that say no consciousness is primary. So vanta vanta is a monest idealist >> perspective which says that consciousness is primary and it's from

58:11 consciousness that everything emerges. So in modern time this has become what they call the mindbody problem. Mind body problem is I have subjective experience. Where does it come from? Does it come from the body which means the nervous system? But how can this personal appreciation very personal subjective sense of I exist, I am, I love, I feel pain, I feel joy. How does it come from a mechanical, electrical and chemical activity? There is absolutely no proof so far in any way. Again for the listeners, they should know that there is absolutely no

58:58 proof whatsoever or even not even a theory that makes sense of how this nonphysical personal experience which again if you want to go into terms which are called qualia and modern modern philosophy how they come from the physical. They might tell you I know maybe it's like this but nobody knows. Okay. So that is the challenge of what they call the hard problem of consciousness. It is an imaginable problem. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So um to make a long story short, I have researched all of that uh with

59:44 the grace of Maharishi and the knowledge and with looking at it from all the different perspectives, perspective of modern science, perspective of philosophy, perspective of common sense, perspective of logic, perspective of how much it answers questions that are complicated. ated in life. The meaning of life, why we have suffering, um why uh we exist, what's the purpose of it, where we're going, why did it appear, from where did it appear? So I've looked at all of these and came to the conclusion that consciousness is all there is that consciousness is primary

1:00:29 and that vanta advita vanta is the right understanding about reality and about wholeness. What was missing is which is missing in both sides. We we kind of put down the physicalist because we said oh you cannot explain how consciousness comes from the matter >> somebody's listening to us many of course I'm sure they're pointing and say how can you explain that physicality can come from out of >> consciousness that's the other side of the problem so if consciousness is non-physical non-material how can it create all this physical reality there is a class of thinkers and

1:01:15 philosophers, a school if we can call them, that think that physicality is actually an illusion and that is a little bit explained in the Maya principle from the Vic tradition, >> right? >> That actually we're living in a Maya. If you tell this to the scientist, they will immediately say, "Thank you very much. I live in that. I pinch myself. I feel the pain every day I work with that maya. So maya or not for me this is reality. >> So we have to explain what is this Maya how does it work >> and that's what I do in the book consciousness is all there is. Um, it

1:02:02 took me 15 years to put this book out. Not because of writing, but because of thinking about these solutions based on what I learned from Marishi and how to make it logical for the western mind where we can accept the realism of physicality but bridge the gap between consciousness and the physical. And so that's a long story. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no. And I think that's so beautiful because you know I think people again right sometimes you have to give very simple examples you know like the phys you look at the intelligence of a body right if one were to scientifically think that everything

1:02:48 happens sequentially there's impossible right there's so much happening and I think today quantum you know mechanics and all of that is proving scientifically that a lot of what you've just mentioned is consciousness as the source course is really how the world is operating right even the real world that the physicalist thinks is their real world and I think it's a it's a again it's a matter of time before you know science is able to prove that as more people experience it and understand that I think more research will go in but I think what you have achieved is is you know very significant in terms of where the world has moved so far >> beautiful that you mention of course quantum mechanics Because this is one of

1:03:33 the logics. It's one only one of the logic. It doesn't prove by itself, >> right? >> But it is a supportive argument together with the convergence of many other arguments then you come to truth. You know in science we say that when a theory answers many unresolved questions it means it is on the right track of being the true perspective and the true theory. And so we can never prove physically that consciousness is primary. It's beyond the physicality of thing because it is non-physical itself. We can show however that if you assume

1:04:20 that consciousness is primary and find the logic to answer 2030 unanswered questions about life and living and physicality and all of that and it is logical and it doesn't contradict any existing proven theory then you can say well this is on the right track. If not this is the truth the ultimate truth >> or make it through examples right. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> So quantum mechanics what does it say really if we go back we said big bang and all that. So through the objective approach meaning just the scientist trying to find what are things made of you know the Greeks said you take any object you cut it into pieces you will reach a

1:05:06 small piece that you cannot cut anymore. We'll call it undivisible. And in Greek undivisible is atom nondivisible. So the atom is just that smaller part. >> But in the next in the past 200 years we show that the atom is >> having more smaller particles and that those particles are actually waves. >> They are non-loized. So the universe on that level is non-local. Is a field of uncertainty. Is a field of all possibilities. And to make it local, you have to put consciousness in it because it's through observation that the wave becomes a particle. >> I don't think we need to go into that into this because that's a big quantum mechanical analysis. But this is one one

1:05:55 uh channel which shows that the ultimate physical understanding of the world is a unified field. So that the laws of nature are actually more and more unified. For example, we used to think that electricity and magnetism are two different forces. Science have discovered they are one. So they call it electromagnetic field that the weak and strong forces you know and like this are still different but then we have the grand unification. And now we have theories of a unified field which is super string theory and M2 theory etc. that actually explains that everything in the universe comes from a field which is non-local, non-material in its

1:06:42 essence. And therefore this is an indication that when you say consciousness is primary you have a substantiation even from modern science >> and it's got it's a field of all possibilities all probabilities and and that's why you know quantum seems to be you know that when it is observed it becomes matter >> right >> somewhere and you know has something else and without a concept of space and time exactly >> which is what you know classical theory is so I think if you one really goes deep into this subject I think What I want our you know audience to realize that this the even though transcendental meditation as a process or as a technique or as a technology is so simple in terms of what you do you can

1:07:27 go for 1 hour and get it. But the the world thinking of centuries you know has actually you know gone into you know something that is so complex but to enable you to live the best quality of life be the best version of yourself and you know I think at the end of the day it is about the output and the outcome while we can all go so deep into some of these subjects and you know we can go deeper because we having the opportunity of talking to somebody like you who I mean you've written another book I mean you that consciousness all there is but what about the Ramayan in human physiology I mean it's so interesting what someone like you has written about you know a sacred uh you know Indian

1:08:13 tectayana and and and and mapped it with human physiology tell us a little bit about about that because it's just you know these are deep subjects but you know so relevant uh when one wants to go deeper into understanding understanding, you know, just the purpose of life and why one exists. >> This is a very beautiful and interesting question because it's another one of those channels that support the idea that consciousness is primary. In fact, what you mentioned are two levels of evidence. One is that through consciousness which is through transcendental meditation you can change your physiology you can change your behavior because when you practice a

1:08:58 mental technique and you see that your cortisol levels go down your blood pressure is uh balanced from a mental from a consciousness perspective and also as we have seen which is very interesting topic is that when a small group of people practice transcendental meditation they have an effect on society. So there is a decrease in crime, decrease in conflict, decrease in accidents of the road in society. How does this happen? Some people try to explain it of course with quantum mechanics and quantum physics and quantum field theory and all of that which is possible because there must be some kind of physical or whatever we call physical medium. But the true explanation is that when you say that

1:09:44 consciousness is primary, if you act from the field of consciousness and you reach that unified field which is uh underlying everything, you are influencing everything. So that is one angle of um of support to the consciousness being primary. Another angle which really came from Mahishi also and that is that the Vedas are actually the laws of nature. >> Veda means knowledge and it means total knowledge. And so if Vedas are the total laws of nature, if a human being can experience the laws of nature, a human being can transcend through transcendental meditation, can reach

1:10:31 enlightenment and know about the universe. Why is this so? It's because within the human being, the laws of nature are already there. >> And this has been already mentioned in the Vaam brahasmi voa, I am totality. But people usually take it as an inspiration or something to uplift the people. You know in the Bible it says humans were created in the image of God. Uh in the New Testament Christ says uh find the kingdom of heaven which is within you. In the Quran even says I am closer to you than your jugular vein and the Dao and all of that. Many many other and almost all great spiritual religious uh inspiration speak about the

1:11:19 glory of the human being. So Marci said if Veda is total law law of nature human being is total law of nature they must resemble each other. And so this is how he asked me to search for the structure and function of the Va and see if it fits within the structure and function on the human physiology. And in this case there are two books actually. One that was recently even translated into Hindi. >> It's called Va and Vic literature as the expression of human physiology. And the other is Damayana. So in this first book I describe how all the different aspects of Va yoga naya vika sanka you know karmamanza

1:12:07 vanta shika kalpa vakaruk chish the purans and all this in their structure and their function they are actually replicated in the human body >> you know take naya it has five chapters It corresponds to the talamus. It has five divisions. Naya has 16 principles. They are in 16 different nuclei. Nuclei means a collection of neurons inside the talamus. So it's physically there. So we are really the embodiment of Va. You know if you take yoga four chapters there are four loes of the brain and there are different salsa and gyra which are areas in the brain that actually correspond one to one to the different

1:12:54 sutras of of uh the yoga of patangali which is a book and has the sutras there and like this we are really a replica of the veda. You asked about the Ramayana which is fascinating because the Ramayana is the story of our own human evolution within ourself and if you see that for example Ram is a special place in the nervous system and you look at Sitha as let's say the heart it is you know the heart and why it has the you know representation of Lakshmi with four arms and all of that and you look at all the rishies that Ram encounters you Look at the stories about what happens when he meets different places, goes to

1:13:41 different places of Hanuman becoming small and then becoming big and burning the city and all of these things and Vishitra teaching you know Ram at the beginning of the Ramayana how to you know target and how to do this and there was there Rakshasi Lady Rakshasa who was doing noise and it was on the river. They appear to be just you know stories but when you look at them in terms of human development and human physiology you find there are all there all the rishes are there in different places. You can even trace the path of Ram that he has taken through

1:14:27 >> you know going through Dandaka forest and then to Lanka and all that you can actually trace it in the brain. Mhm. >> And see how it develops and how the physiology develops and how when mind and heart come together which is Ram regaining Sitha and bringing her under the umbrella of wholeness and so really Ram taking all the aspects of the body under its balance and its control which is then the return to iodia and then you have Ram Raj which is enlightenment in the physiology. These are of course few just general examples. >> But what it means is the laws of nature that are the reverberations of consciousness were experienced by the

1:15:13 rishi in their rishies in their consciousness which brings us back to where we started our discussion >> that this introspection >> and how would they tell the story? They would either say it in terms of sounds and reverberations of sounds or in terms of a story. And the story of the Ramayana therefore is the story of the laws of nature. And then we find them in our own physiology and our own development and growth is a story that is in the Ramayana that is being told until we reach enlightenment which is really Ram Raj and the coming together of wholeness. So in brief this is this is an idea. It's so beautifully put you

1:16:00 know and and you say if you're in that state of consciousness and you tell something and you said it is there in the human physiology in a way it also explains what you know the whole world the other set of books that are there everywhere you know the law of attraction manifestation you know how your thoughts become your reality you know the intent if it is coming from that state of consciousness right Then intent also translates to what you see around you. It's happened in your body. Maybe you know evolution can also get explained in some shape and form. So therefore the underlying base of what you said consciousness is where

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