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0:00 Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of policy beats. Today we will be learning more on China's perspective from a very esteemed guest who traveled for our international conference here at Today we have with us Mr. Colonel Jen Xi Jang and he is a senior research fellow at the Jar Institute, a visiting professor at the Southwest University of Political Science and Law and successively he served as a secretary to the defense atachi in Bangladesh, assistant to defense atachi in India, deputy defense atachi in India and then he was also defense atachi in Pakistan and Nepal. From 2004 to 2005, he served as a senior military observer in the United Nation Organization Mission in the Democratic
0:46 Republic of Congo. And of course, there's a lot more to sir's credit. Thank you so much sir for joining our show. Thank you very much. Um actually I'm quite happy that is after 23 years uh I've come back to Pakistan again. uh I was in Pakistan from 99 to 2002 and before that I was uh in India for 5 years the second time. So that tenure 8 years and 3 months. So all together uh I started at the age of 25 from Bangladesh. I see. And ended in Nepal uh 61 years old. Oh my goodness. So all together 20 years 20 years in in South Asia
1:31 and even during the time uh in Beijing I also looked after South Asia uh in many know uh the military situation defense policies and besides that I was in Congo for 400 4 days. So all together almost half of half of the time actually more than half of the time. abroad in Congo for 104 days. So altogether 21 years abro abroad. So that means uh uh you know in Congo in South Asia they didn't have winter. I lost 21 winters back back home. Yes. Sir, it's very interesting your journey.
2:18 If you could share with us a little bit about why you chose to be part of the forces and was this always the idea the plan that you wanted to have um or were you someone who wanted to uh pursue a different profession? Yeah. Now when I was uh young small uh in middle school I so strongly wish to join the army because uh in my family uh my uncle uh that is my father's younger brother uh joined the revolution at the time we call join the revolution the army uh before liberation so he was in the operations to cross the Jansu river I
3:05 see in the battle to liberate Shanghai Ning. So I think 100 more than 100 pedals. Uh but he did not so luckily he did not get any bullet. And then you know my elder brothers all in the army. I see. So I so soon wish to be in uniform. So you had a military background and that inspired you to continue it. this is a story of many people here in Pakistan as well. Um with that being said sir uh let's move a little bit towards uh you know understanding or perhaps you can create awareness about the Chinese perspective uh when it comes to what is happening these days in the
3:51 global order. Mhm. My first question to you would be that how does China define u its vision of the global order in today's multipolar world and what kind of role does China want to take for itself? Uh actually China wishes to have you know peaceful development in in the world and uh we encourage mountain polarism. Mhm. So now the world is quite dominated by one superpower and uh know yesterday we talked about global south and global. Now so far as NATO is concerned my own you know idea
4:37 is that since was war pact absolutely no more does not you know exist anymore then why there is no reason even for NATO to exist. Uh so where is the threat? There is no threat for NATO countries. I think you know recently one uh we had interaction with some Australian diplomats. I rest the question. So strategically Australia is very important because they are surrounded by waters and uh the few this a big country but small population and a small army. No. So that feel very strongly a kind of threat from outside. Who is the threat?
5:23 I asked him them. Then you know economically they benefit a lot from business trade uh with China. Absolutely. Uh so we have a lot of quite high percentage of Australian uh trade relies with China. We also you know have a lot of tourists to visit Australia. a lot of Chinese students that also contribute to the make contribution to the economic development and uh but uh strategically militarily they're quite they're quite dependent on on America and I raised the question uh where's the threat China does not have threats for you and other
6:09 countries no threat from India no threat and Russia is far away so where's the threat we should study the question and uh since uh you know President Trump came to power uh he has announced you know the canary in the Middle East that is American and even has declared Greenland part of America and also he would like to make Canada such a big country as a 50 first state of America. Then I say if suppose there is a threat because of the importance strategic importance of Australia maybe someday Trump will announce that
6:56 Australia will be the 52nd state of America that is the threat. Oh of course they don't agree with me that is definitely an in intriguing perspective. We here in Pakistan also understand that each country has its own sovereignty. It has its own perspective to see the world and it is rightly so. So no one country should dominate the vision of any other country and you know we all have our own concerns to deal with. That is also the principle of UN charter. Absolutely. Absolutely. We should respect sovereignty uh of each country and uh but now uh we once studied with uh Beijing
7:44 University and one uh American University, Stanford University had a seminar and then we discussed how to deal with the uh conflicts and the disorder, social disorder of some countries and uh Our idea is that you know we if the ruler is not doing a good job in the country so then there is serious turbulence in the country uh the world community should also look after how to look after we don't agree with you know the military strike of a super power against the targets of that country we we are we we oppose uh interference
8:32 but we can do intervention a kind of intervention and uh intervention should be led by the United Nations that is our idea we should have in some if intervention is required then we do intervention but the intervention should be led by the United Nations a global body that everyone respects and understands has the right to do so so with that Being said sir, um in your view uh specifically when it comes to the USChina rivalry, uh what kind of what degree of competition do you foresee? Uh is it something that will be managed, will have some diplomatic end to it, or are we expecting a potential
9:18 confrontation? It may not be direct, but there could be flash points. uh in the past few years uh the relations between China and America not very comfortable and uh that is also what you know the world people does not want to see because the relation between China and America is very important not only for these two countries but also important for other countries including Pakistan. Absolutely. uh if uh so um how to deal with because China is rising up and uh America feels uh you know they will uh lose the domination position uh in in the in the days to come. So they feel a kind of threat but uh our policy
10:07 foreign policy is that we can have win-win situation. we have cooperation win-win situation uh then the two countries and the world will benefit from from the development but uh Trump and even the previous government now had so many troubles for China but why I think China is has been dealing uh the matter quite well and finally uh the problem I don't think is so dangerous the relation will go on and uh because now the Chinese relation with China America relation is different from uh America Soviet Union relation or uh
10:54 America Russia division uh because during the cold war period uh the two civil powers you know had all problems economically, militarily uh but uh during the 40 years war did not happen. Why? One of the main reason is that both of the countries have nuclear weapons. Uh this is a kind of uh uh no uh because if if if war happens know one or two may use nuclear weapons actually nobody wishes to have to use nuclear weapons. And uh now the Chinese relation with America we have one more factor. Not
11:40 only the two countries have nuclear weapons but also the two economies are highly in integrated. Absolutely. If something happens in America, China will suffer. If something happens in in China, America will also suffer. So the two economies uh are closely related. uh that is the two two factors to you know to prevent war. In recent times uh the western uh countries have you know tried to decouple uh the economic relations. I do not know how successful that will be and if that is possible but they politicians wishes the politicians
12:25 wished but the business people today they do not think that way. That's yesterday the prof American professor he does not agree with the the government policies. Exactly. Yeah. So perhaps on a people-to-people level or on a business community level the ideas may vary from what the government or the politicians are saying but then again it is the government and politicians who steer their people to a certain direction and for Pakistan as you mentioned the shock waves between these two countries will be largely felt in middle power countries like Pakistan. Uh we obviously consider China as a great partner as an ally um as someone as a friend more than the partner and ally someone uh that we are very much delighted to have that
13:12 friendship with and on the same end with the United States of America Pakistan has maintained a certain level of relationship there is a history to it um we've been strategic partners as well things changed in between and what not happened but despite that Pakistan wishes to maintain uh its own balance. It does not want to have relations on the cost of another. So that's the kind of policy I think uh Pakistan's the nature of Pakistan's relation with China and the nature of Pakistan's relations with America different very different uh so you try to have uh good relation with America China does not have obsession
13:57 exactly we have not faced any uh repercussions to say and I am coming to that question because I'm no America is very important for everybody absolutely Yeah. Not only economically very important for anybody because they're not number one. Yeah. So sir in your view then um what kind of strategic value um does China place when it comes to its relationship with Pakistan um particularly when it comes to the regional power shifts and also the belt and road initiative. Uh now uh uh during the clash between Pakistan and India, I use the a word Pakistan is a
14:43 stabilizer stabilizer because the regional power would like to dominate control this region but Pakistan is playing a very important role. M so Pakistan actually is a stabilizer of the situation both in the world and in the region. Absolutely sir and and for that um I I also want to know with regards to CPEC um what kind of cooperation do you see ahead on that end? uh CPAC is very important not only for Pakistan and now also for China because this is the flag project uh of the belen road init initiative and uh though the security
15:30 situation we have some problem but I think the situation is well under control and uh CPAC has brought Pakistan up and with the continuation of the project I Pakistan can you know have further development including social stability. I don't think these people uh the groups and even some other external forces can stop it the wish to stop the wish to see failure but we will win. No, absolutely. It comes under other countries who want to stop CPC or BRRI are not in favor of development then not only stop I going to CPAC maybe in
16:16 the future uh will become will have a new name uh because these days uh recently uh Pak China Pakistan Afghanistan we talked about the project and also China Pakistan Bangladesh we talked about the project. Yes. So I think that will be uh in the future if CPAC can expand towards uh Afghanistan and Bangladesh and some some other countries western that will be a regional pack uh corridor regional peek and uh we wish that you know uh India will understand you know uh the life of the people the development of the society and if they agree Even CPAC can
17:04 extend eastward. Mhm. Go into India. Absolutely. I I mean that's one of the lofty dreams that perhaps we hope can happen. Yes. But right now in India things seem to be very different. With that being said, sir, um given somewhat of the regional instability, um what kind of role do you foresee when it comes to China more specifically after the post US Afghanistan order? um particularly with regards to counterterrorism and development because if CPEC has to move westward there has to be some sort of stability. Um but what is at stake for China there? I think uh uh under the present situation uh your relation with your
17:52 western neighbor neighboring countries very important and uh if you can uh develop good relations with both Afghanistan and Iran and then that side there won't be any problem. Uh so now uh Afghanistan actually uh Afghanistan actually the problem is that you know they cannot control the ruling ability is weak. So let's help them you know uh to go on the right right way. So I encourage uh no a co uh anti-terrorism cooperation even I thought of you know
18:38 uh a kind of crossber cooperation operation cooperation so if Afghanistan does not have the ability so diplomatically can talk with each other so cross across the border we can have joint operation. M yeah because if you know we bomb some somewhere and they don't have the ability we have the ability then we help them help you to finish these terrorists finish these terrorists so um sir you know in Pakistan we not everyone has yet to take grasp of the Chinese language and if we do it could allow us a better understanding of uh China's culture
19:23 community but more importantly the strategic culture through which China operates. Um so we should also learn udu. Absolutely. It's it's a two-way it's a two-way thing. But most of the people that I have interacted from China, I've been surprised they have learned udu or they have learned another language from the region. So I guess on our part as well we may have to pace up as we speak English. Is number one country uh which get most a lot of scholarships. I think more than 17,000 scholarships a year. So everywhere in China we can see Pakistanis but some Pakistani students they are doing English courses. Yes. Uh not in Chinese language. Exactly sir. So in our one of the university that I graduated from they
20:09 offered Chinese language. So I studied up till two levels pin and I hope that I can learn further. Uh both were doing Chinese artific. Yes definitely. But I guess that being said, it would help us connect better when we can understand each other better. Yes. So language is very important. And the question said he will she will go to China to for one year study of Chinese language. For Chinese language, one year is not enough to master the language. We have to concentrate uh five years at least. Yeah. At least five years. No sir, I hope that kind of drive also shows up in our people. But my question more so um as I mentioned strategic culture um what lessons do you believe
20:56 uh the Chinese strategic community can learn from Pakistan even though we're a small country when it comes to our experiences in hybrid warfare and counterinsurgency and what more can Pakistan learn from China strategic culture uh I think we should learn from each other as you mentioned Pakistan there is a lot you know for us to learn from uh especially you attach a lot of importance to your relation with China and you have uh uh a kind of toasty training even in primary schools you have lectures you know about our really good relation so China Pakistan friendship is deeply rooted in the society I visited some you know
21:42 universities the students were so happy to see a Chinese friend So our friendship is really very deep deeply rooted and uh so far as cultures cultures uh of course we have difference and you believe something we don't believe anything we believe in communism we believe in materialism you believe in religion and but China is much influenced by Buddhism and in part part some parts of China is also uh quite influenced by Muslim. Yes, we have two provinces. We don't call province, we call autonomous regions.
22:28 Same as province. Shing Jang is such a big area. It's mainly Muslim. Yes. And uh another is uh Guangi another province that is similar to Muslim. So they don't they have the Muslim culture and uh so uh like uh uh tourism if you know in the north we can open uh a new path then communication will be easier. I wish to see because highway highway it turns a lot. Yes. And train cannot turn and train is bridges and tunnels it is
23:13 almost straight. Yes. If that railway can be constructed then our distance will be uh maybe half. Yeah. So because train can go through the mountains. Uh so let's say in the future if we can have a train from that can connect us faster to Shinjangi. Yes. That would be so convenient. Chinese people now they they like very much traveling abroad and uh they went to South Asia, South Asia many Indonesia, the Philipp uh Thailand a lot of Chinese terrorists but less terrorists uh in Pakistan and one of the reasons is that the security situation
24:00 is not very comfortable. uh if the security situation improves then there will be a lot of Chinese terrorists. The Chinese people wish to see Pakistan understand Pakistan. Um sir, my last question to you would be um you mentioned that the security situation needs to improve and that is a fact uh and we try we try our best but what would be some recommendations that you as a friend would like to give to Pakistan in improving our security situation? And lastly um how do you see in in what direction do you see the global order moving towards? Uh so far is uh the future of security situation
24:46 and actually Pakistan security forces when we say security forces that is that includes army and police and and security or departments. Uh so some people ask me why security forces why why not army because it includes several organizations. Exactly. It requires other intelligence. They are doing they have been doing a very important job also they have lost a lot of lives precious lives and uh uh for you know uh to solve the problem I think uh the regional cooperation is very important and uh so it in the west I think it's easier and just now I mentioned that is
25:31 cooperation with Afghanistan with Iran and that kind of trend should develop. So improve the problem uh relation and establish a kind of cooperation mechanism. But uh the eastern in the in the east it is more difficult. M yesterday I also raised a question. Do you have a kind of strategy to bring India to the table to to know to discuss and solve the problem and the anything happens in India they say it is supported Pakistan anything happens in Pakistan you say it is supported by India and I don't know whether you support each other or not. Uh that's a that's a
26:20 big issue. No even without investigation let's say it is done by India it is done by Pakistan so this is a we should have you know joint investigation get the proofs then we announced this is support by some absolutely sir so without investigation we this is a lie you do realize that Pakistan had offered joint investigations in the last incident I know and we still have not seen any evidence despite that a standoff between the two countries took place boundaries were crossed and an entire fiasco a conflict was created unnecessary. Um but that happened. So maybe we have to try uh some other way like uh bring some
27:06 uh important countries in the region and uh they can play some role uh leverage. Even yesterday I talked with one uh professor that you know uh since we can have India, China, Russia mechanism China, Pakistan Afghanistan mechanism and China, Pakistan, Iran, China, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Absolutely. Why not China, Russia, India, Pakistan? Absolutely. Uh so if the four countries we can we can we can we have a mechanism maybe uh we can discuss something we can fight at the table uh discuss this. So so anyway try to find a way out
27:53 if if this kind of situation continues you blame each other uh then nobody will be will benefit. Yeah. So I wish you know India takes my advice sit at the table talk with Pakistan because Pakistan has already you know extended olives for so many times. Yes. uh so India should in the past you know I've been following the regional situation for dozens of years in the past uh Pakistan India relation very bad then improve then quite good then again very bad a kind of circle but this bad situation has been continuing I think for a very long time
28:38 quite a long time uh at least more than 15 years yes and also it got worsened after the abrogation of article 370 in Kashmir. So naturally the lynch pin of all our issues emerges from this is against the United Nations charter resolution. Yes. Uh this is you know Kashmir who who's Kashmir Kashmir this should be decided by the people by the people absolutely that is exactly what Pakistan supports that a plebite may be held exactly as the UN charter dictates and we move towards a solution both countries they amended the law they take all Kashmir to India yes not only that they take a large area of
29:23 China as part of India that amen amendment. So not only Pakistan but also China also China. I think the entire um topic of India China relations is a subject of its own to study sir and if we had time I would have loved to indulge further into that but as a last note as I asked um where do you see the global order heading towards and then we will conclude uh heading I think this this trend will continue like this for a quite a long time. Mhm. It would not be very good but it would not be very bad. Uh because the positive uh factor is
30:11 also playing some important role. Uh negative part is playing a role. The positive part is also playing the role. Uh that is China. We are the stabilizer of the regional sit of the international situation. M China, Russia, Pakistan. So we are stabilizers. So this force is also very strong. If we know perform a good job then we can try to avoid a very bad situation. Absolutely. Yeah. So let's see the two forces are having competition. Uh I believe uh finally uh global south uh with the
30:58 representative of China, Russia will win the situation. I hope so sir. We have a lot of hopes for the bricks plus. We have hopes for the Shanghai cooperation organization. It is also expanding. Exactly sir. And Pakistan hopes that it can make its place in the bricks plus format as well. Um that being said, I hope that there is more optimism in the future than the pessimism that we have just witnessed in the past 6 months just to say and um since the entire incident of the Gaza and Israel issue has been ongoing as well. So this is know like Palestine and Iran and in the past Iraq. Yes. Military strike. The reason is that Iraq
31:43 mass destructive weapons. Then finally they could not find the equipment and uh even now today in Iran and people say they are developing nuclear weapons. I think they also developing civilian use nuclear technology that is in the right of every country. Every country I don't believe right now Iran has nuclear weapons. So they just try to find excuse and Israel is finishing the countries one by one and Syria has been finished, Iraq has been finished. They're trying to finish Iran the last Pakistan is so close
32:30 should be careful. Yes. No, no, absolutely. Pakistan has its eagle eyes everywhere now. We were keeping things on the radar, sir. So it seems. Thank you so much, sir, for joining me for this wonderful conversation. Uh we stand enlightened by what China aims and envisions. Um the win-win situation is the only thing that all countries should look towards. Um, thank you so much again and we hope you can keep visiting us. Okay. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for watching this episode of Policy Beats. See you again on another episode. [Music]
