Dalek Empire - The Original Big Finish Doctor Who Spinoff with its Creator, Nicholas Briggs

0:00 this is John Leon sorry this is John Leon and uh just iding myself with the Sirens of audio what what are you doing me to hello me one what do you mean well you've gone all black and white yes it's my new strategy for the podcast what's wrong with the current strategy well I'm re-editing the episodes by turning the original content black and white stretching the podcast out from 1 hour to 5 this will appeal to the new modern audience but me too you know our audience is old and nostalgic don't you you've seen the figures I've seen the figures but I don't care I'm going ahead

0:46 anyway and if anyone actually disagrees with your cunning plan they wouldn't dare [Music]

1:32 good day audio files this is the Sirens of audio the show that explores the universe of Doctor Who and other cult TV in the audio medium I'm Dwayne and I'm Philip G Dwayne G audio files good day Phillip how's it going it feels like forever since we've sat down to do one of these no we did we did one mids no not it's not been but it does feel like it's been a very busy big three weeks that's for sure feels feels like lots and lots has happened we've uh we've been hanging out to a lot together in person which has been great but um today I made my way back to Tasmania and you're in your beloved home city of Sydney oh can I just say we had the most glorious day today after lousy weather traveling the country Sydney really put on a beautiful

2:19 show of 28 degrees clear skies um lovely Southeast Li bre it's been gorgeous can I just say it was 20 29 degrees here in in tazzy today as well so that's too hot good weather here too good weather here too yeah it's like a heat wve 29 all right we are going to be uh uh talking today about the original big finish spin-off the very first one that came out many many years ago because of course it's been 25 years since big Finnish has uh been producing Doctor Who uh but we're going to be talking about dck Empire Today the first series there are four series of Dal Empire we're going to be talking about the first one and not not only that we are going to be speaking with uh the creator of that

3:04 series Nicholas Briggs he's going to be joining us to to talk about that very excited to share that with you but before we do Phillip do you know what no what Wayne we have to jump down the rabbit hole let's go [Music] [Applause] [Music] right Phillip I thought since we've had such a busy week we could talk about what we've been doing over the last three weeks so what have we been doing we've been mad and why have you been so crazy to put all this in motion yeah it was Jan field but I was play Jan

3:51 um we have had Sylvester McCoy and J Fielding in Australia and we have done five cities in three weeks seeing hundreds of people um great great turnouts I mean much bigger turnouts late late people buying tickets but big turnouts in every city in the end and just yeah going on tour it has been absolutely wonderful so Janet was with us from Melbourne and Adelaide so we did Melbourne one weekend um the following weekend we did Adelaide and hobot but Jan was with us for Melbourne and Adela then she flew home decided to take a holiday with her family to cans instead of staying with with us she just didn't have didn't have the grit to keep going but Sylvester has been an unbelievable trooper and been with through melbour

4:37 Adel Hobart and this weekend was Brisbane Friday Saturday Sydney Sunday so it has been an epic call but what a joy and so many stories um both in public and private about things and svest had had an amazing time well he says he does but he may lie to us he says he's had an amazing time um and he'll be flying off on Thursday to Chicago so he's had a huge huge time do it all again over there yeah two days in Chicago but then he goes on a cruise for three weeks but even on the cruise it's it's a doctor who Cruise so every night he'll be on table with Doctor Who fans and no doubt reging them with lots of stories which he's great out how have have you found the last three weeks Dwayne oh fantastic really really good

5:25 Sylvester's so easy to be around he's um he he seems to enjoy uh we we I had the opportunity to show him around tazzy a little bit so that was fantastic even though he kind of smashed out a huge weekend just before in Adelaide and Hobart and then spent that week so we we got some got some sightseeing in I was able to take him down to Port Arthur and and uh up Mount Wellington and um out to see some of our local Wildlife because Tasmania has some unique Wildlife even even to the rest of Australia um so he had the opportunity to see some of those like the tazzy Devils uh which which is unique to us so uh that was that was quite a thrill um and just just to see his his energy as well he puts everything into his appearances for the

6:12 fans he loves doing it for the fans he goes into um um he he likes to give everyone um lots of value uh so I'm sure anyone who's been to the events would agree that they just got more than they expected from Sylvester I think they without a doubt I think he he he would have surprised everybody yeah with his I I was really worried last night the VIP dinner that he would be gone because in the green room he was so tired and then you we had you 20 VIPs and so we're moving him round and round every half an hour made him get up and move somewhere else and so kept dealing with different groups of people every half an hour and I set up so at 8:30 we could leave and he stayed for another hour and a half

6:58 because he was luy last eh yeah like you last and and you know and the people hung around I mean a few people had gone for different reasons understandably but anyone who hung around they just gathered around him so there was this throng of people around the table as he was just telling them stories and and one of was texting his parents saying I'll be out sometime yeah kept waiting for an hour um but yeah it was just it was just wonderful to see him in his element and there was there was yeah one one person I was chatting to which this was the first time i' ever been to an event ever any Doctor Who event ever really be Doctor Who fans ever he was a Seventh Doctor fan and I um I just I look at his photo in the Dropbox with all you they had take with Sylvester and the utter Joy on his face of here I am I

7:45 was just thinking oh I yeah I remember those feelings um it was just yeah so it's it's seeing the The Joy on so many people's faces we had someone come up to us and I can't remember what city was it it was either hope Brisbane um who said this is unironically the best day of my entire life um and I just sort of thought well firstly that's a bit sad but secondly that's L I think I think that was a they they posted that on Twitter I think yes one of our that came one and I read that out to you and Sylvester as we were driving so that's right yeah so I've I've been sharing some of the comments with with Sylvester uh throughout some of the funny memes there was a funny meme going around that uh that he laughed that with uh you know wife wife

8:31 looking at a husband thinking that uh he's thinking about other women but in you know the thought bubble in his head is I can't wait for Sylvester's event so he thought that was funny but yeah like you said the the joy of other fans and just seeing all the guys together uh seeing everyone socializing through the lunch breaks and all the chatter going on this is what events used to be like Philip do you remember do you remember those days yeah yeah I do I mean I think that's what I just the Gathering of I mean yeah not not rival podcast but it was just wonderful having different podcast people coming coming and so you know Melbourne we had a whole group of you representation of the Doctor Who show um the BL podcast what it's called now sorry um what podcast was SP is it space

9:19 for Space 4 thank you space 4 um then there was the oldest Australian doctor podcast was represented there too with 42 to Doomsday 4 so that was great and then in Brisbane we had more podcasts the more the the younger genen turned up um it was all the old all the oldies down in Melbourne and then all the oldies down in Mel all the young in Brisbane it make me feel very old fantastic I was I was actually a little I was a little bit in a of those guys because we had Josh snares we had um Chris Pro and the 50% podcast who traveled all the way over to Brisbane from Perth so really great yeah Perth and we had people come from the Jos came from the 50% podcast came from Perth um and they they got a bit of time with Sylvester as well um but just watching

10:06 their professionalism too and and it's just yeah and you know we had we've had people reach out to help us and and I was going to stop I won't mention anyone if I have names on do us but I haven't names on do but yeah we had people in every city who would go and pick up from airports or drop off to airport or you pick up things left behind and put them in Ubers to get to other people um I will mention Chris Chris who you know was with us in every city except for Hobart um so just it was just wonderful he came and and helped us in every city um but everywhere we went there were people who helped or there were people who offered to help for next time um so it just it was just yeah but aside from that just the stories and just just the people chatting and having a good time

10:52 um they may of course of course I we we mentioned Chris but I could also mention Todd as well because Todd has been one of the event organizers for Sydney and the doctor Hood Club of Australia for years and so it's great to still have him involved as well and it's always great to catch up with him yeah it is but you got to start naming people you get in trouble that's why I was oh okay because because because the reality is there's been so many people help us in so many places and you and in every location had different people there who actually helped out and um yeah so very thankful for that um and yeah looking forward I mean for those who announc it here I'm sure announced it here um we have the next event I think we have we haven't so we

11:37 have the next event already lined up um which is Matthew waterhous is coming out for the last two weekends in March um he'll be doing Melbourne in one weekend and I was only going to do Sydney and somehow I don't quite know how it's happened um we're going to do adelay with Matthew as well so we'll be doing Melbourne and then we'll do Adelaide on the Saturday fly back to Sunday Sydney on Sunday and do Sunday as well in Sydney so we're just only going to do three cities s Everyone else it is just three weekends has being too much um just have a job to do this is just this is just me as a fan doing things for fans um so we just going to cut down to three cities and um yeah making plans for what we'll do else after Matthew but we won't announce that at least till Matthew so stop asking

12:26 yes fantastic all right so if want more information on Matthew waterhous in Australia you can go over to Sirens of audio.com and check out the details there there'll be links to to to tickets and things like that you can you can register and uh it's one thing as as fans we're we're not an organization we're not a company so to be able to organize events it's much much easier if you book in advance so we know who's coming and it makes it very very tricky if everyone decides to come two days beforehand uh because we may not have enough space and we may have to turn people away which is something we would never want to do no and we came close cuz we we had four of the four of the five locations almost yeah we yeah well two two of them we went over by 20 people than we were

13:13 supposed to have because yeah and we just didn't know we were going to get those numbers because the the a matter of numbers that came in the last two weeks was gigantic so even if you just buy your entry ticket if nothing else so we know you're coming and then you save up for your autographs and photos and other things you want to get for the day that's fine don't feel like you've got to buy everything at once um we just we really need to know how many seats we have in case we have to move and yeah there there's at least two locations we almost needed to move though I mean bizar I mean bizar in fact you did move and actually yes we did move yes yes Adel we moved um we did move two weeks before big upass we just didn't know so that that makes things a little bit old

13:59 we don't know Adela forgot to forgot to tell the photographer so almost a catastrophe but we it out on the day yes that was I'm actually sitting in the interview and you know realized the photograph has arrived yet I have this sudden thought of oh heck I don't think I told the photographer I'm try out how do I communicate with dra that we need to communicate with this photographer and um yeah I so ask you know a long question and then just walk off and he's go where you going yeah that's hilarious when those things happen he was a wise man and trying to track us down he got there in plenty of time and did a great job can I just say we had love all I mean all our photographs across all of Australia super happy with with the the help we

14:44 got in the photographies that we got um and yeah just love lovely shots of people fantastic all right let's crawl up out of the rabbit hole we're going to talk about dck Empire uh the first series of that uh created by Nicholas Briggs uh to start us off let's throw in a trailer I remember what it was like before the DARS came to Vega 6 the air was always fresh the suns were always high in the sky the water and the marsh Lakes always a sparkling blue that's the way I remember it DC Empire an adventure on four CDs all

15:33 conquered planets will be exploited for their technological and Industrial [Music] resources part one invasion of the dals available now SS and Men I don't want to die you know that I know you know know that look let's stop pretending so all right I'll do your dirty work for you I'll do it I'll do it all right just leave me alone part two the human factor available now the invasion of the Dix has

16:18 begun all right Philip let's start off by asking do you remember when this came out do you remember hearing it for the first time and how you felt I do remember cuz I I know I bought it all as it came out almost monthly but I bought it all as four discs at one time and I have in my head I probably actually bought off the doct club of Australia I have a feeling I it may have actually be a hven the Todd ran um I can't be 100% sure where I got it but I'm pretty certain I got all four discs I I do remember listen to it in in a binge session because I couldn't stop because every episode was just kept me driving it but it would have been soon after it came out we tend to get things quite late in Australia CU yeah they had to be

17:03 post out yeah like like everything Doctor Who it always until now um with streaming it always came often months later so it would have been out in the UK at least six maybe 9 12 months and I think I would have seen some stuff in Doctor Who magazine about it and being being curious about it but I didn't have high expectations I thought yeah a series what was that well it's going to be a series Without doctor and and I I'm not a huge I mean I like the dials but they're not my biggest biggest thing ever and it I I think I had in my head because i' read some of the stuff that Terry Nation wanted to do taking the dials to America and that was something just didn't particularly interest me and so I bought it because

17:49 I'm loyal and because I even by that stage I was trusting big finish because the big F that stage were just having the opening run of everything was fantastic and there was the link with the genocide machine can I remember the three of them that went together genocide machine was apocalyps there was four actually there was four there was the genocide machine the apocalypse element the mutant phase and then they attached uh time of the dialects to it as well the Pagan one I had totally forgotten that that was connected in any way but I'll believe you but was the other way around there wasn't a genocide machine um no no apocalypse ele was the last one so it was genocide machine was fairly early on it was one of svest early ones well M mutant phase was actually the

18:35 last one um was it really I think I think that after the mutant phase is when the eighth doctor run started there was a mutant phase last yes I'm just looking the mutant phase was uh 15 and then storm warning was number 16 what was apocalypse Element 11 really yep oh there you go okay um yeah so I think because I enjoyed the the the lead up do story so much um and and they really were all excellent those those three stories and time dials I love too bit of shakesp quoting dials um I really had enjoyed so much what um those had brought in so I guess I was kind of looking forward to that but I just thought no doctor I just

19:20 wasn't sure how good it would be and then of course once I listened to it Sarah Marat and her character I just fell in love with Gareth Thomas from Blake s was there he plays Blake in Blake seven but he was playing korf um and so those two in particular I just really loved the characterization I loved how they interplayed with each other um I loved yeah their voices it's a s married I was just seriously I was just so blown away by her as an as a voice actress and what she was doing it's the whole four episodes just captured me and the dialogs are in it but the dialogs aren't the stars of it they're definitely there in the background they're doing a lot but it's it's what's going on around them it's the human drama and the pain they bring

20:08 but it's such a huge scale I think I don't think I've ever heard a doctor who scale was do who story well the universe of Doctor Who the scale is just Galaxy wide and huge and I mean I'd love to see M the um St master plan which I think you know would almost captures the sort of idea as well but in some ways this was actually done on a even vaster scale than that in four episodes what was it when did you first listen to it do you know what your was uh I can't remember exactly cuz but it was it was pretty early on and I was very very impressed with it um because I'm always very open about the fact that the DS are not my favorite

20:53 Doctor Who Monster uh I'm I'm never I I I love of course I love the DAR and I I can't imagine Doctor Who without the dial but they're just not my favorite thing I find other things more interesting but I found the diex in this to be extremely interesting because this is the D without the doctor around who you know is always going to win in the end so Nick's been able to write a story here where you just don't know what's going to happen because in Doctor Who you know the doctor's going to win that's just how he's going to do it here we don't know and you're right when you mention the D master plan how it spans the Galaxy you know and it Go all these different planets and it's huge massive scope D Empire is is is the same but it starts off in a small scale it starts

21:39 off with a a romance between Alby Brook and and and and Susan menz and they Qui oh and they quickly get uh separated uh so we we get the romance in the first episode and they get separated and it turns into this story of Alby trying to reunite with with Suz or initially thinking that she's she's dead but then trying to reunite with her but then there's also the story so there's that story then we find out slowly throughout the episodes more and more that he's a a secret agent there's other stuff going on there's a thing called project Infinity that we sort of hear about all the way through till the final episode which is called project Infinity but then you've got the

22:25 story of Suz uh as a slave who who stands up to the dialects and um the dialects decide to use her to infuse hope into their slave Force so that um so that they have a more efficient slave force and because she's made friends with klandorf the Knight of Alicia and the Knights of Alicia appeared first in the Sens of time um she has him by her side too so he starts off with a lesser role in the start but I think uh as Nick will talk about that in more in the interview as to why his role progressively got more and more but that's a fascinating role as well and yeah so that there's there's the dials are manipulating Sue as well because she thinks she's doing one thing but in reality the DS are manipulating her and

23:11 then you've got all the you know then there's interesting like this is where the the characters of the dialects the car like the interest the character of the the emperor dialc the Supreme DC particularly the Emperor diac who seems to have this link with with uh and Mendes and it becomes more and more interesting and and when you get into Series 2 it's even more interesting again uh with that but we're not going to talk about that this time we will down the track for sure um so it's all these different things and you're traveling to all different parts of the Galaxy it's a massive canvas that that Nick has put together with this sort of small story between these two or three people and the dicts um and these you know people that come in um around them

23:58 them but a very small core in the series which is fascinating he does that so well it's what he does a lot and this was the first big example of that yeah no it's it's a Timeless tale and I enjoyed it as much listen to it a week ago actually maybe even more than when I first listened to it because it's still just it blows my mind there's been it's been a long time since listen to it and I'd forgotten bits and things happening and and some structural things that he done because end of episode 3 is actually quite big and then he retells things in the episode four it's it's I mean it's typical Nick Bree in terms of Storytelling but um yeah I don't score big finishes but if Nick's listening is a 10 out of 10 because I don't think he

24:44 could done anything better I think everything work and Nick as the writer director writer of the music and the sound editor and the sound designer unbelievable like gosh what this man has managed to achieve um it's just astounding I mean this is very early on in big finish he set the bar very very high for himself with this one it um this is this is this is Nick Briggs at his at his Heights so yeah uh interesting titles too they're taken from various Doctor Who stories some of them are uh particularly the two middle ones the human factor of course which was from Evil of the DI we know that very well and um death to the diil was the name of episode three

25:29 uh which we which we which we all know that uh it's one of Nick's favorite Doctor Who stories from the television as well but kind of it's kind of different the way they've weaved that title into the story and how how that makes sense and all pans out but yeah totally recommend it some interesting um guest casts come in as well this is where jez Fielder he's he's cast with different names he uses different names in in various CDs sometimes he's Jeremy James sometimes is jez Fielder um sometime is it jez James sometimes um if you see a David saxs through there that was a pseudonym that that Nick used as well which I don't think we talk about in the interview um but he uses a pseudonym there I like the covers the

26:14 artwork of the covers is great because they're using the D font uh which is making it look like it's you know the 60 style D fonts from the comics which is fantastic um so yeah was there anything anything else you wanted to say about these recordings no I think that's we we should chat with Nick because we're going to bring up whole He of stuff with him and he's going to explain whole He stuff as well yeah so let's cross over now to our chat with Nicholas Briggs well we've been discussing D Empire already but of course the best person to speak to DAL Empire about is the person who wrote it directed it did the music the sound design and started it Nick Briggs Nick thanks for joining us it's a great pleasure now I know we are taking you back a long way to the dark Empire and

27:00 my understanding is this was the first spin-off that big fish would do for the Doctor Who series Main Range that is my recollection as well yes and it was handed to you because who else would you hand away the uh the first big step step into a new world and realm but you as as the first writer for big finish and so how did that D Empire come about how did you um managed to convince Gary that this is something or was it Jason that this should happen yeah I think was all bit sneaky actually um I uh I had an idea I mean I think as I've said before in other interviews um my initial idea when asked for big finish was to start with a big darc story but we didn't have the rights then so this was we got the

27:48 rights and and uh Gary immediately planned uh three uh DX stories for our main Doctor Who range which is what turned out to be uh uh the genocide machine um the mutant pH apocalypse element yes the apocalypse elephant as I lik to call it um and so um an invasion of gall what what better thing could you do uh and he put He gave them the umbrella title of dalac Empire I don't know whether I'd already come up with that name let's say it was Gary and I thought well and I said to Jason well I'd love to do um I'd love to adapt the the dalc book The Old Blue dalic Book annual thing from the uh 60s but when I

28:36 read through it again I remember saying at the time that I thought oh it's all a little bit too unscientific for me not not that dalac Empire is particularly scientifically accurate but it doesn't there's this whole thing that went on with Terry Nation about not knowing the difference between the solar system the Galaxy and the universe you know which is just too it just blew my mind so I thought I'd like to create something in the spirit of that sort of Epic tale but without the doctor in it and uh as I remember it I spoke to Jason more about it and he was quite Keen to do it and I'm not quite sure what Gary's involvement was but there was something surreptitious about it because I remember that Gary was away and we put

29:22 it on the website while he was away so he came back from holiday something find that it was all happening and I'm not sure entirely how pleased he was about it um but it was very much my thing um and Gary was very very good and generous at allowing me to have my space I think uh you know he's a really dear friend and I can absolutely say my hat on my heart I love him dearly um and he uh but he and I didn't always get on creatively and uh I think he always felt that I secretly wanted to take over from him which I which I absolutely didn't you didn't want to take over from Gary but you did well I did but that that's a

30:09 whole I did take over from Gary but that's a whole other story but that you didn't Gump him though that's what that's no and that was and it was never my aim I just wanted to do the things and Gary's very wise about people and what motivates them and I think he thought as long as as long as Nick is happy doing his little thing now and again I think he's not going to be any trouble and and I think he was always very generous about the work I did and and you know liked it uh and would come back and commission me for new Doctor Who stories but yeah so I think there was I think there was a bit of unnecessary sauge went on because I think I was just in a very childish way sort of scared that he would veto it and I wanted it very much to be you know my vision for this particular series and I

30:56 got John answorth on board to do uh the script editing and he held me to account creatively so say what does this mean have another think about that you know so that's sort of how it came about really the idea and then I was bizarrely I was writing it an episode at a time obviously but I mean writing it recording it and then writing the next one and then recording the next one so quite often uh I didn't I had a a sort of overarching plan but I didn't know in precise detail what was going to happen next and I was able to react to what the actors did and said and I think I really like that performance I think they're going to get more in the next episode and um Gareth Thomas had a few

31:43 complaints about car andorf and about what I'd said about the character in the description and what he ended up doing um being brave and a warrior and I think Gare doesn't do any warri Behavior does he you know so I put more of that in because to keep Gareth happy really Gareth was lovely about it by the way I phoned him up to ask him to do it because I'd been really impressed with him in storm warning I mean really impressed I thought he's aming and uh and I just phoned him up because that's what we used to do in those days phone people do you remember that and uh and I said I'd like him to do it I sort of described it to him I said do you want to see the script he said no no no I trust you I trust you fine fine

32:28 you know brilliant and of course Sarah MOA had to be in it because she was my favorite actor of all time one of the great things by the way about doing Sirens of time is that we well revamping Sirens of time recently is that we uh you know I did a behind the scenes thing and I got Sarah in and we had a really lovely interview which is part of the extras which I hope people enjoy so yeah I just I just Sarah has that quality about her where she's not starring and she's not sort of massively egotistical uh and doesn't come across that way as a performer but there's something about the way she performs that makes you want to follow her story and That's essential in a lead actor and there was it was a beautiful performance

33:16 and great to work with her yeah so it was amazing so sort of like Charles Dickens where you write a chapter sent it off and then you write the next chapter for the following interview which is a story that managed to hang it so together so well I assume you got this narrative thread through it so which of course spoilers make sure you listen to this before you talk yeah go and listen to these four episodes um you use you use a very clever narrative device which is an what appears to be an older um um I was going to say Susie Mendes character doing a narration in terms of her but later on it's revealed it's actually something quite different which is a clever TST did you you always knew that twist was going to happen though I assume from so so there was a lot of the plotter you had done a lot of the ideas

34:02 you had done yeah I knew I wanted the audience to think it was an older Susan Mendes who was narrating yeah um I I think I'd be it wouldn't be honest to me if I didn't say it occasionally occurred to me well maybe maybe it is really Susan Mendes and I thought no no no no is I stick to my original plan it's not it's not her it can't be her no because I wanted her to comment on this this and this so I did want that to be intriguing yeah yeah I I don't know I don't know why I was doing it episode by episode I just think I didn't know any better uh I don't I don't know why I chose it chose to do it like that but I remember because it was getting really good sales Jason came into one of the studio sessions and he said stop killing people

34:50 said we need we need another series and I'm frightened that everyone's going to be dead at the end of episode 4 and I really don't want that to happen and I think so I think I I yeah I eased off on killing people because Jason said look seriously I'm going to need you to do another series you know you were recording one week one month and then it was been released the following month like you you were doing a four we that close yeah so I mean yep so episode one uh it was recorded on the sixth of May and released in June 2001 right so all of them so you record what about episode two then episode two was recorded on the 3rd of June and

35:36 released in August oh so it was recorded before the release of the first one that's inter so I must have just been yeah so I would have been informed by the experience of doing the first one not the reaction to the first one that's the interesting thing and then there's a gap of two months yeah that's interesting I think they were being released as quickly as I could do that I I'd have to say that the reason that was possible is that I just wasn't doing anything else at the time yeah so although hold on a sec August no I must have just finished episode two before I went off to Nottingham to do some weekly rep because I would have done in in August July August I would have done at

36:22 least four weeks possibly six in those days of weekly rep at the theater or Nottingham so I three recorded September released in October yeah wow I would have done that yeah I would have recorded that when I got back I suppose yeah then December when I was younger I had much more energy I and you did all NS back then yeah exactly yeah just the thought of it makes me want to lie down and have a snooze [Laughter] now mention the yeah oh yeah definitely I was going to mention the the death count when it came to DAR stories cuz I was thinking the the death count you without the doctor around can you have more Jeopardy like that as opposed to the TV then I'm thinking about

37:07 resurrection of the dialects and yeah you know other stories where there's massive death counts but it but these were series character weren't they so yeah I absolutely wanted to play with that I wanted the audience to feel like oh God you know this person who I've now invested in might get killed I wanted there to be uh more sort of danger for them and for it not to be so cozy I mean yeah yeah are the dials how what's the difference I was going to ask if the dials are better without the without the doctor there what's the different what's the dynamic change when the doctor's not there is it I find it more interesting personally but what about what about you well I think it's um I think both things are

37:53 are interesting I did feel cuz when it's do to Who and the doctor's the main character the doctor is a fascinating interesting person and and uh that's what the audience want and that's what when you're telling a doctor who story you want the doctor to be dominant when you're telling a darx story you can flirt with the idea of almost making the darx the main character I mean you can't you can't really I mean you know in a like a Breaking Bad way in the the lead character or the shield is perhaps a better example of an old cop show is quite old now isn't it of where the main characters are actually bad but you're still fascinated by them you can't quite

38:39 go that far with the dials because they are you know they have automatan like qualities and and are not but you know I kind of um you know with the DAR Supreme and Co coercing Susan Mendes and like suan Mendes you know something that Russell referenced to me just before I was filming darck the night before he he said you know like the way the darck used to talk to Susan Mendes in dck Empire he said I want more of that sort of fierce intelligence and cunning and yeah so it does allow you to spend more time analyzing daric behavior and strategies and so you can you can

39:26 feature them more you know I was fascinated by the whole thing I did with um when Sue is collapsing and no it's klandorf isn't it who's one of them's injured which one's injured and they're pretending for the sake of the other him yeah is his ankle that's right and she's helping him because otherwise the Dal will kill him as someone who can't work efficiently and the cutting back and forth of ad daric in the control room observes it and then contacting the dck Supreme and saying there's atypical Behavior there is this important and the dck Supreme intervening and talking to the other dalc to tell the dalic who's about to and I like that sort of whole process of dalic communication and command that

40:13 perhaps you wouldn't um go into quite so much in a doctor who story and you know and certainly it's always a massive shock for me when I've done a doctor who story for the television just how unimportant the dcts are you know because when I'm filming it I think it's all about the dialogs and then I watch the episode back and I think oh no it's about all these other people and I'm like this noisy background thing that just threatens to kill people now and again you know it's a different kettle of fish with the exception of the um the one where the DX and the Cybermen had the punch up um you know doomsday doomsday yeah I never remember the titles isn't it awful um because I never got scripts with titles on they just had numbers on so I didn't process that information you know I was quite shed as I'm sure I've told you approximately 3

40:59 million times before when I was shown the the edit for that before it went out and it was you know it was like 15 minutes of me talking to myself it felt like and I thought there's no way they put that out on Prime Time BBC One they're bound to cut some of that down and then I saw it and I thought oh no no they really have done that it was it was all about me for quite a few scenes what about me yeah knows along the way was um in the first two episodes you've got a reporter um being a fairly major character then he suddenly disappears in episode three to be replaced by um the American police female officer um now I'm assuming that was supposed to be the same character followed through not at all not at all

41:46 well there you go there's no reason why pelen wasn't it play yeah played by my old friend John wour what was his last scene then you know better than me what did he end up doing well we don't I don't know now because he he just wasn't there in in the third disc and suddenly she was yeah certain so my assumption was he was actually always the DAR Agent following around and then it was he was going to be revealed in episode four like she was and for some reason that something had happened to the actor between I honestly don't think so no I can't cuz John was a you know really good old friend of mine who I'd known since drama school John wadmore

42:32 um about whatever happened to that's a new series we have to do whatever happened to pel yeah I think he just he was a bit of a sad character wasn't he a bit of a and a bit of coward as well wasn't he yeah yeah but he always he kept Turing up all the time and with um know what yeah what his last scene was he just got left on a planet did he did no he and Alby were off heading for the spaceship heading for to escape the planet from the highness from the highnesses yeah he he and I be sort of left together and escaped together and then we move to the next show and you know it's six months later because I mean the way use time is it's such an

43:18 epic show I mean it's over so many years and covers the entire galaxy so it's one it's such a huge epic story and he's just with her is he the next time we see Alby well next time Alby we well yes he's with her and then we have a flashback to where they met and she tried to arrest him and then suddenly she's now on the scene the whole time and then later ends up being the D agent but um I I'd always assumed it was supposed to actually the reason why the journalist kept turning up and that was that was supposed to okay yeah I mean really it's one of those awful anst where I say I really just don't remember but I I think I would have remembered if I was having to replace JN at the last minute I'm I'm sure that didn't happen because he was I mean sounds an awful

44:04 thing to say but he was definitely available and he was very very good as well he was great I wonder what happened there I wonder what happened perhaps we'll never know no okay no more for the trailer now now in terms of is this the sort of story I've been brewing in your head for a long time cuz I know Dar are a major part of your whole upbringing and part of your drawing life is this a had a lot of the story been playing round in your head for a long time I mean the fact that we got a ni of valicia there who get a who are in The Silence of time um and I know that part of the um things you did before big finish is was nights of Alicia how much of this had been brewing

44:49 your head for years is it and then you were able to actually get on paper well I don't remember um but I'd say certainly the Knights of valicia because I just created those for for Sirens of time and um and I and so while I was putting I'm very much one for sort of pulling together other ideas I've had and seeing if they'll fit uh and and I thought well that would be a nice link wouldn't it if if I developed that a bit more and have him as a knight of Alicia and and and having the whole sanro thing as a sort of ancient memory um but I think I think my initial ideas for dalac Empire started pretty soon after Sirens of time soon after I'd finished work on

45:37 that I was sort of sniffing around for the next thing to do uh yeah and I would have been getting and I remember writing lots of preliminary documents and sharing them with Jason and and John answorth saying this is what I'd like to do yeah yeah I love the connection you've got to other stories around that time like the one I I keep coming up this these little minute nerdy things like the sound effect for the gone Bazaar pops up again in you know or it's been in sort of O uh and it comes up and there's little bits and pieces that have been used all over the place which kind of well I spent so much time making that sound effect I thought that someone's got to go back

46:23 there did you yeah yeah it was good it was good yeah it was just it's actually one of my favorite scenes in sord of Orion actually sorry say again one of my favorite scenes in the sort of Orion story actually is in the in the gone bizar what do you think the little what do you think that is I don't know I just assumed it was samples on a on a keyboard no but what do you think it's meant to be oh some kind of uh that's what it's like this yeah yeah it's some kind of snake charmer yeah it's something it's meant to be a bit like that I think it was highly influenced by Blade Runner all that you know all those sort of exotic sounds in there a lot of people think it's a phone

47:10 a lot of people think it's a phone ring okay I can I can see what this why they're saying that yeah when I say a lot of people I think possibly one person said it yeah and I don't even remember their name and where are they now no but I love D Empire and the way that your your storytelling you tell this vast stories over massive distances and you know different time periods and yeah it comes out throughout your writing through throughout big finishes history which uh which I really enjoy and this was a prime example of that one of I'm a huge I mean it's weird obvious think it's weird when people say this but I'm a huge fan of History I like history

47:55 documentaries and I like I like that the whole sprawl of you know different events happening and affecting something centuries later and and it being vast but then it just coming down to interactions between two or three people you know I the whole the difference between the vast and the the minute and personal fascinates me and it feels like when you're when you're creating a story you you have as as many atives watching this and perhaps you will as well recognize it you you just want to create that feeling in yourself like that no that feels right that feels real that this feels like something in the context of this fantasy world I'm creating that

48:42 could reasonably have happened within these parameters that's what you're looking for that feeling of you know not just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing if it sticks you know monkey tennis or whatever you know just saying weird stupid things for no reason and all bet are off and there's no there's no scientific or pseudoscientific logic actually working things out so that it sounds credible and plausible yeah within the fantasy obviously yeah we got a similar thing in the human Frontier which I'm I'm really looking forward to that sequel too don't even talk about it he didn't I thought you'd forgot there's there's a lot of philosophy that you use the narrator for in terms of particularly the first episode asking question you know deep

49:27 questions like what is that makes a person want to go on and this this exploration of what it is to be human um have you studied a lot of philosophy do you like trying to get you because there's a lot of deep ponderous understandings of what is about Hope and about survival and you you're really playing with those issues a lot throughout the four episodes well I've never studied philosophy I've I've never you know educationally I'm fascinated by it and also you know not to overshare but I think you know certainly in in recent years I've discovered that I've I've spent a lot of my life uh being quite seriously depressed and

50:13 anxious and uh so stuff like that was just going through my head you know while I was making a cup of tea you know though uh I was always thinking about things like that why do we go on why why is there hope and when people are when people are in appalling situations when they're whole you know and I won't reference anything that's going on in the world today but when they're you know when their homes have been ripped from under them and you know how is it that people can still function in environments like that and come out of it and learn something and you know develop as human beings you know those things fascinate me about uh The Human Condition because because I fear them as well and I want to exorcise those fears in investigating

51:00 those uh kinds of situations and trying because you're writing what is essentially an adventure story you know you have the license for things to kind of turn out all right in the end although they didn't turn out all right for the lady policeman in darck Empire is she she comes a Cropper in darck war doesn't she she does she's just in a spaceship with a guy in the Air's running out and and then we never see them again you know and I you know there are those desolate moments I think because you know there's parts of my personality that are quite depressive there are there are quite a few desolate moments in in my stories where you think really did you want to do that Nick that's very depressing but you know to

51:46 me that has the Ring of truth about it you know life isn't all happy clappy celebratory stuff I mean you know for goodness sake we do need a bit of that but um you know most people are interested in negative things let's face it if someone says say I've got something really interested to tell you actually I went for a cup of coffee and it was fantastic no one's interested they're much more interested in the story about how the waiter was terrible or it was overpriced or the shop closed too early those are the things that human beings are drawn to aren't we we're interested I tell you what she was terrible he was awful you know that oh oh I tell you what they were very nice what there no story is there the story comes from our

52:34 stories human stories are always about some form of Crisis even if it's just a kids cartoon where fluffy bunny can't find a carrot that day you know that's what that's what uh hey that's an idea for a series no it isn't um you know that's what our stories are about they're about bad things they're about terrible things and how hopefully can overcome them but to add in inverted commas realism sometimes they don't overcome them yeah now two of the stories you named after Doctor Who episodes invasion of the dals and death to the dals yes and then and the second one the human factor which of course illusion to evil the dials yeah um which is just you

53:21 enjoying having a bit of a play with using titles that people sound familiar attract invasion of the DI isn't that a title for that's it's a a play on Dal Invasion exactly and also the Dal book invasion of the dals is is on one of the first Pages it says invasion of the dals um so yes I was having a bit of fun but also sort of deploying because they had the sort of feeling of authenticity about them those phrases yeah and death to the dox I can you explain to me why death to the dox is Called Death to The Darlings because that's the catchphrase to start the invasion no oh sorry not my story talking about the TV series TV

54:06 show yeah I've got no idea why the TV show is called that exactly today I think I love that title and so I wanted to do a story where that title was absolutely absolutely they all have to shout D yeah I thought yeah that's what I wanted to do the human factor well you know I mean this is such a sad thing to confess in an interview I was just imagining the other day if someone had found evil of the docks and had SP this is very sad and had got a DVD of it or a Blu-ray and just knowing how much I love evil of the docks had come around to my house and said Nick I've got something to play you and we're going to film your reaction you know and

54:53 they put it on and it and and it starts and it episode one of the evil of the dos and you know and I and while I was playing this little weird thought exercise um because obviously I live in a fantasy world I I was crying I started crying so I have such an emotional investment in the evil of the DXs that to use a phrase from it I just thought yes that has to be done to make this to make Dar Empire the most dcky series that's ever been made we have to have the phrase the human fact as one of the titles yeah that was my gut feeling anyway or pronounced factor factor oh Factor yes and you know

55:38 and largely even though John answorth as the script editor held me to account I know that he and I have a lot in common in terms of our ideas and you know um I knew he was on my side so he was not going to I think the only thing he ever objected to in dck Empire is when I had Jupiter terraformed into a habitable world and he said that is just so stupid he said you cannot do that and I said well the docks need to have a big plan he said yeah but there just mad it's just all gas it's not you know well do it if you like but he thoroughly disapproved and quite rightly so didn't he produce space 1889 he did yes yeah I see your point well it's the

56:24 question of rules I think his his conjecture was that the the um uh that D Empire wasn't that kind of Series where you could do something that impossible space 1889 yes that's a whole thing about why if space travel had happened in Victorian times yeah well I got to listen to this today with my son because we were dri both driving up from Melbourne for the day good Lord he's just finished he's just finished his degree on script writing so we' listen to an episode that we'd stop and we analyze oh my goodness I feel under now so it was it was it was just really great fun to get he's not heard it before and um I knew this was one of my favorites from years ago and it been

57:10 a while since i' listened to it and so want wanted to refresh myself to it all and he was blown away by this world in terms of how how exciting it was episode one and the hooks that are in it for what's to come in the future the way the tension builds and once again your method of Storytelling in terms of using the narrator the flashbacks the the pro progress and then into the philosophy of of the whole Susie Mendes kalor being introduced um and it was just hooked we were just hooked in terms of following these characters through um to see what's happening and it's fascinating you've got these major characters who hardly spend any time together at all you got a love story that you've got you know in three minutes and yet that epic Love Story lasts for four discs of trying to

57:55 find each other and they don't you've got korf and you know Kor spoilers and I've already said spoilers yeah years ago for goodness sake yeah you got you got Arab and Kor who don't meet to the final pass so you've got these amazing relationships happening of characters um it's yeah it's it's Game of Thrones before Game of Thrones which I've never seen yeah yeah EP epic story and epic characters not interacting with other but tell you this huge story on a gigantic canvas thank you it's really lovely for you to say that to me um um while you were talking about it I just I was thinking that it's so much of

58:41 it for me is gut instinct um a and uh and I'm so lucky to have been allowed to tell my stories my way um I think a lot of people I work with in the past anyway think that I'm a bit formidable because I'm a bit sort of implacable about what I want but it's only because I'm scared that I'm not going to be able to do it in the way that feels right you know it's like my to me it's almost like music it's kind of I just as I'm writing I I sort of hear you just I hear the Rhythm of it I hear the sounds of it and I think and what needs to happen here we just need that solo voice just expressing something and then immediately we tumble

59:27 into a black hole or whatever I've just got a a real that that's all I'm good at you know that's uh that the feeling of how a story should be told and I'm really lucky that I've largely been allowed to do that I wouldn't have been allowed to do that if you know I pursued a television career I admire people who you submit themselves to that and and have you know people whose job it is to tear apart what you've done to deconstruct it people who come to your work with the the prequisite is that they're going to change it not not that they're going to appreciate it and work out whether it should or shouldn't be changed you know I am the script editor I will be editing

1:00:13 your script and I will find things wrong with it because that is my job I know I'm oversimplifying it and of course script editors do a marvelous essential job but you know I'm I'm lucky that I haven't I'm not lucky from a career point of view because you know may maybe if I had been more Relentless in pursuing that but I just had I had one little flavor of TV writing and I just knew that I didn't want to be subjected to that and it was it wasn't even stuff I cared about it was you know writing for a a terrible soap opera called family Affairs which I had to train myself to love but the training didn't last for long I can't write scenes about how much a carton of milk is I just I mean I can

1:01:01 but I just feel desolate about it and and you know so many of the writers who've done really well on television you know throughout the world have had to start doing stuff like that and find a way through it and you know I can't do it no good at it well well I think D is probably the biggest biggest story big finish has ever told in terms of Epic in scale in terms of years in terms of characterizations it's the casts you assemble are astounding in terms of there there there's not a bad actor in there and they managed to capture their characters so well you know trust me

1:01:46 this not it it is astounding even jez Fielder a stalos oh I love J amazing I'm not I'm not being in the hope that he'd see this and go BRS yeah I mean know they but once again that character adds to that's part of the whole temp like the dark master plan that character you know bit ridiculous but it it gave that VI of dark he committed to that performance he was playing for for anyone watching and listening who hasn't heard it he's playing this insectoid creature called Hive leader stalos and I it was just you his umth voice for the episode and I said what are you going to do for this jez he said I've got an idea he just launched into it and I was genuinely on

1:02:33 the floor laughing I mean I Disappeared behind mixing test was on the floor just I couldn't believe it yeah it was just hilarious I think I had to did I bring him back you did yeah just on the strength of that performance it was just very random performance it was a bit it was a cross between um I don't know it was it had a bit of the way he did it made me of dark master plan character um was it sephron one of one of Tres but it was all he kept doing really weird noises just totally randomly in lines he made the scenes lasted twice as long as they should have lasted because of all that and he could see me laughing and he just

1:03:20 you know jez loves a challenge yeah but it's it's interesting how many things get prompted in here that the TV series will let to do in terms of some of the places you take the dials to and some I think in terms oh the tvcs will actually come back and play play with those ideas and say oh that yeah they stole that from Nick I what I don't know oh the whole um the whole the whole ending of of the Empire when they you know bring in the success to dalic and don't foresee what the consequence of that will be um you we've seen that that play on a few times in the in the news series with victory of the daring and other places as well I suppose so yeah yeah well you know Russell was a great fan of D Empire yeah

1:04:06 well with good good with good reason so anyhow it's been a marvelous thing to listen to and um yeah we we enjoyed discussing this aren't we dway yes we are very much so so Nick thank you so much for coming and sharing some of your memories and being able to tap into something from so long ago almost 25 years yeah it's been quite it's made my head ache Ty newor T new do Empire series okay I I'll get on it right after human Frontier 2 yeah you you heard it here humanoid life forms beware the invasion of the DX has

1:04:52 begun they came screaming out of the sky gunning down any who wasn't fast enough to get out of the way D Empire an adventure on four [Music] CDs increase the power we must know what they are saying I remember what it was like before the darx came to Vega 6 the air was always fresh the suns were always high in the sky the water and the marsh Lake always a sparkling blue all conquered planets will be exploited for their technological and Industrial

1:05:40 [Music] resources ssan men I don't want to die you know that I know you know that look let's stop pretending so all right I'll do your dirty work for you I'll do it I'll do it all right just leave me [Music] alone I know what I have to do take control find Zeus you may not ever find her then I'll Die Trying who is he someone I thought was dead

1:06:29 [Music] someone someone I'd fallen in love with but you wouldn't understand that would you just put it down to the human factor not you are we have Superior number we have the superior technology We Will Conquer your Galaxy it is only a matter of time kill him exterminate No Angel they are sure that they will win

1:07:16 they will win that they will conquer our galaxy our galaxy you want us to show pity fire fire D Empire an adventure on four CDs available now always great to chat with Nick um so it was lovely to talk to him about this and I think I suspect he enjoyed going back and and thinking about this project from so long ago as well yes so thankful for Nick he is so busy and yet when we reach out to him he finds his time and yeah he should been having lunch he stayed with us and we actually we CH chatted and gossiped on way way past um past this but we are so

1:08:04 thankful for him giving up his time to talk to us and I hope You' got a lot out of that because there's so much there um and such amazing knowledge so um enjoy it suck it dry and there's more Nick Briggs to come very shortly so stay tuned with uh with some other projects that he's releasing soon particularly with the Sirens of time Redux we spoke to about that too so we look forward to sharing that with you but to wrap up the episode today we're going to just mention a couple of things that we have been listening to um and it's actually hang on yeah that's right it's your turn philli there you go well I have been doing lots of flying um backwards and forwards to different cities to and from Sydney and around the place and so the um audio I downloaded

1:08:52 to take with me on the plane and listen to on the plane was the new Masters set um I'm not going to talk too much about it because we will discuss this more in our monthly overview in a couple weeks time but the war Master future Phantoms it was called we we're still getting stories coming out um which have been um directed and looked off by Scott hanock I don't know when we lose him to to the um this is his this is his last one are you sure positive there you go okay so it's it it will be sad to lose Scot because he's done such an amazing job particularly with the war master and the Derek jaab stories these are four ghost stories which basically Derek jacke

1:09:39 tells and then we go back into time so there's a little bit of action in the present most of the stories take place uh as he tells them these ghost stories and you'll see Derek sort of come in somewhere but as not as the master as a different character wonders um but can I say absolutely chiling scared the life out of me like I I don't I I don't like horror or or fear but these were just so engaging I think partly because Derek jackes is so good talk about it more but um Jonathan Barnes James Goss Lizzy hopley and Tim Foley four of B F's best writers and they've all come up with very very very different ghost stories all of them manages scale life had me

1:10:26 and I was thinking I'm glad I'm going to play with lots of other people um the mind this one better a train which I wasn't in the wrong location being in a plane for that one because that one was not not good um but yeah all all of them are great so but we'll talk more we'll talk

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