Deanne Stewart, CEO of Aware Super | Meet The CEO

0:32 Attila Brungs: Good evening, everybody. A very warm welcome to you all. My name is Attila. I'm the Vice Chancellor here at UNSW, and is an absolute delight and a pleasure to welcome you, fellow alumni, friends, distinguished guests. I'd like, of course, to begin by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. It's upon their ancestral lands. This place stands acknowledging elders past and present as not only the traditional custodians of the land, but the traditional custodians of knowledge for this place and knowledge is the heart of what we are as a university, we also honor their enduring connection to country. Because of the knowledge, leadership and generosity, they continue to enrich our communities, our industries and our university. Since 2003 Meet the CEO has brought together UNSW community with some of Australia's in the

1:19 world's most influential business leaders. You'll have seen this real as we came in. The series has become an unparalleled space for learning, for networking and the exchange of ideas that shape industries, guide policy and inspire the next generation of business leaders. Our Business School is at ashamedly, one of the world's best, and we're incredibly proud of what our alumni have achieved. Our graduates don't just succeed in their careers. They lead, they innovate, they create opportunities for others. They shape the policies that influence industry, start new ventures that drive growth and bring new thinking in the challenges of our time. And none of this actually happens by accident. It's the result of a Business School that is deeply committed to excellence, excellence in teaching, excellence in research,

2:05 excellence in engagement. It is also the actions of our remarkable group of 122,000 strong business alumni, and it is also the result of the extraordinary effort and engagement of many in this room, our industry partners at UNICEF, as you saw in the video, our mission is simple, but quite ambitious progress for all. We believe that education research are powerful engines for economic and social prosperity. The Business School exemplifies this mission to build a fairer, more sustainable, more inclusive and vibrant economy, through partnerships with business and government, through leading research that informs real world practice, the school is helping sure that prosperity is growing and shared, that progress benefits all parts of our society, whether it be improving productivity, increasing social cohesion, driving innovation or

2:53 revolutionising industry. We generally believe that our Business School, our students, our staff, will be the center of positive societal change. Now tonight, we continue the tradition of insight leadership in the Meet the CEO series. These conversations are candid, often inspiring and occasionally humbling as our guests share not only their triumphs, but the challenges and lessons that they've learned along the way. Tonight, it is a real honor to welcome Deanne Stewart, the CEO of Aware Super. Deanne is one of Australia's leading voices in superannuation and responsible investment. She's a passionate advocate for Financial Inclusion and sustainability, and she brings a very deep understanding of how business can drive both economic performance and social good. I'm also very proud because she's been the recent recipient of the UNSW Alumni

3:40 Award and has generously supported UNSW through the Business Advisory Council for many, many years. We're looking very much forward to hearing what you say tonight, Deanne will be in conversation with David Gonski, the Chancellor of UNSW. David has been central to the success of Meet the CEO for many years, and tonight's actually a special occasion because of it last mark the last time that David attends this as Chancellor of UNSW, I'm sure you all agree with me, David is an exemplary leader whose steadfast dedication and profound impact has shaped the very fabric of our university. Since his appointment, back in 2005 he became, when he became the first alumni to hold the role, he has served as an extraordinary advocate for UNSW, a guiding force in our evolution. David understood no other, not just excellence, but excellence at

4:27 scale, because when he first joined UNSW, we were much smaller. Now we are a $4 billion top 20 global university, and technically, because we have our own postcode, we're the 12th biggest city in Australia. His leadership has always been critical to the success, and while I know you'll always remember a very vibrant member of our community, I personally will sorely miss his calm president's Chancellor, if not his interrogative methods, which you'll see tonight. Many of you have course submitted questions in advance over 150 and we'll aim to cover as many of those as we can during the time. Please note that tonight's event is being recorded. The video will be available on the Business School website shortly, and I encourage you to share it with colleagues and friends who may find inspiration from tonight's events, as I'm looking very much

5:12 forward to hearing deanne's reflections. I'll now my great pleasure to ask our Chancellor, David Gonski to the stage one last time. David Gonski: Ladies and gentlemen. Firstly, I too acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this wonderful building stands, and I pay all of our respects to their elders past present and in the case of a university emerging, if I may, I thank Attila. I should just make put absolutely clearly the university is in very good hands when they're Attila's hands. And I'm very happy with that. And I want to say that absolutely, at the beginning, tonight is a very

5:59 historic event. And I want to quickly say that's not because it's the last time I will appear as Chancellor at this event. By the way, next time you see me, don't stand in my way, because like you, I'll be seeking to get a good seat all by myself. The reason it's historic is I've been to pretty well every single Meet the CEO in the 20 years I was Chancellor, and they've never once asked me to be the interviewer. But tonight, I finally got the thing, and if I do a bad job, I'm quite conscious as you leave, you'll agree with the Vice Chancellor, it's time he stepped down. Ladies and gentlemen, there is a great deal on my script on how wonderful UNSW is, and it is I

6:49 love the place. I'm proud of the place. I'm proud of the people who go there, whether they be staff, students or Indeed, those who are just trying to find a quick way to Anzac Parade. It's a wonderful place. And I thought, What could I actually say to all of you just before we listened to a wonderful interviewee, and I decided, You know what I should say to you, judge us by how well Deanne goes in this interview, because I am that certain that she will be the best and great, that we can take that as a risk. So now I'm feeling very, very nervous. Ladies and gentlemen, we are here to hear myself in conversation with Deanne. And I want to just quickly say that's

7:38 not the brief I was given. It's an interrogation. And I want to tell you, in preparation, I listened to a number of podcasts, most of them good with Deanne, one of them run by somebody sitting right next to her there, Camilla Love. And I'm not talking to Camilla, because she asked all the questions I wanted to ask, and I've had to find others. Just two weeks ago, as the vice Chancellor mentioned, Deanne Stewart was awarded one of our highest awards, that of the Alumni Award for Professional Achievement. And I think what we'll all remember is not just the wonderful event, but how beautiful her words were at the end. And I'm very certain that

8:23 those beautiful words will just be the precursor of what she'll give under interrogation, Deanne Stewart, as the vice chancellor mentioned, is Chief Executive Officer of Aware Super. Aware super, for those of you who don't know, and I'm amazed, if there's anybody who doesn't know, is one of Australia's largest superannuation funds. She leads an organisation recognised as a force for good. She's in the superannuation industry, and she's leading it for the benefit of her members. With more than 25 years experience in financial services across Australia and indeed overseas, Deanne has extensive experience and expertise in superannuation, Wealth Management and Insurance. Prior to joining Aware Super, she

9:11 served as chief executive officer of MetLife, Australia, and she held senior executive roles at BT Westpac, Merrill, Lynch and McKinsey and Company. Since becoming CEO, Deanne has been guiding Aware Super through some pretty interesting transactions, including the successful merger of Vic super together with First State Super in 2020 and of course, she's also passionate advocate on many things, but most definitely for gender equality. And she was actually recently, or recently in 2019 recognised for her Workplace Gender work by the Workplace Gender Equality agency as a pay equity ambassador. If

9:59 you think being CEO is a full time job, I'm sure it is. But she does a lot of other things. She's a direct director of Red Kite, something I might interrogate her on also a member of the Super members Council. We're very lucky. She's also a member of the UNSW Business School advisory council. I noted she's also at the University of Technology Sydney Business School. I'm not sure about that one. The Australian Institute of company directors is fine, and the Australian centre for gender equality and inclusion at work is also very good. She holds a Bachelor of Commerce, if you haven't already realised in finance and marketing from us, we're very proud of that. And after that, she went into the Master of Business Administration at Yale University. Deanne, welcome, and

10:47 if you'd like to make your way up here, I look forward to interrogating you. Well, Deanne, I've been looking forward to this. Deanne Stewart: I thought I was looking forward to it, but I'm not sure now. David Gonski: But it's always good to make the interviewee nervous. You get a better interview. Deanne Stewart: Well done. David Gonski: Let me go back, if I may not that long, but you were born in Bathurst, and if people think this interview is going to go the whole night, both of your parents were high school teachers, specialising, I think, in science. And the question I wanted to ask is, what was it like growing up in a country town, and how has that, if at all, influenced you as a

11:35 person? Deanne Stewart: Oh, I have to say it was idyllic growing up in a country town. And when I reflect on it, it's really shaped who I am. I think there's, you know, there's a saying you can take the girl or the kid out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the girl. That is so how I feel, and the idyllic bit of it where I grew up. I mean, there were paddocks and paddocks and so just that sense of freedom. I mean, we were out at the crack of dawn, and we weren't coming back until it was nighttime, just exploring the universe. And that was that real sense of freedom. So that was huge in shaping me, but also Bathurst, most people might know it for

12:21 Mount Panorama. And no, I am not a good driver. But it was also a town of education. So you had five high schools there, you had a university there. My parents were both teachers, and so education was a really big part of my value set, and with mum and dad just watching them as teachers, the impact that they had on the students' lives, I reflect on that now, and I know that that is why I have had such a burning ambition to make a difference in the world, because I saw the difference that they made in their students, and it's very strong in my ethos, and it was also a great equaliser. It was my way, then, of exiting regional New South Wales and coming to the big smoke.

13:09 David Gonski: Well, and I know because I learned from Camilla Love's podcast, that you regard yourself as good at maths and were good at maths. Back there in Bathurst, you were obviously surrounded by science through science teaching. Why did you choose not to go into the math science level and, in fact, go into finance? Deanne Stewart: I think because I wanted an application of that maths. But also for me, I also was just interested in the world and in human beings. And my next door neighbor, as a mature student, studied psychology, and she was my guitar teacher, so I'd go over there every Wednesday afternoon and have a guitar lesson, but she would talk to me about psychology and

13:57 human behavior. And so that to me, I was like, wow. And behind that was definitely my interest on the marketing side. Why do we do what we do? Why consumers? And so for me, I had that real desire to explore, sort of the broader world of commerce, and I did economics for year 11 and 12. So for me, it was more the application of the maths, rather than the pure maths. I don't mean to offend actuaries in the room, but I did apply for an actuary scholarship, and decided to do the co op scholarship at UNSW because it just felt like it opened up a world of opportunities, and the experience was amazing as well. David Gonski: Well, I wanted to actually delve into why you chose UNSW, and the Vice Chancellor thought it was a bit

14:45 kitsch to ask the question, but now that you've raised raised it with us, why did you choose UNSW? Was it the scholarship, or...? Deanne Stewart: It was because I knew this amazing Chancellor was coming. David Gonski: I've been there since 1890. Deanne Stewart: No, I think, well, so certainly for me, I wanted to do something commerce related and UNSW had, and still does, the most amazing reputation in commerce. So that was certainly and getting to the big smoke were my two drivers. But as I said with the scholarship, it's one thing to have a dream but Mum and Dad as teachers were like, well, we

15:31 don't know how to afford this dream of yours, and you want to go to college. And so for me, applying for the Co-Op scholarship and getting that just really made that dream a reality. And then to get the experience on top of that, it was such a game changer. And so it's actually really nice now, from an Aware Super perspective, we sponsor the Co-Op program, and so I love that full circle of and we see amazing students come through that. So that's how I got there. David Gonski: It's a wonderful reason. Let me ask you, you went on to get a Master's Degree at Yale. Why did you need it? Deanne Stewart: You mean, why didn't I do my MBA at UNSW? Is that what you're really asking? David Gonski: I'm just asking the questions.

16:20 Deanne Stewart: Well, why I? Why I left and went overseas was actually more the reason. So I was 24, 25 years of age, and I was wonder lust so going from regional, New South Wales to the big smoke, and then getting a taste of that, and then thinking, there's a big world out there. So I was desperate to go just traveling and seeing the world. That just seemed super exciting. But I did have an amazing mentor at the time, and she she said a couple of things to me, but she said, Look, you are such an ideas person. That's that creative side of coming living in the country and all that freedom, but you cannot get your ideas straight. So I would suggest you go and do an MBA while you're going and doing all this international travel. So I

17:07 said, That sounds fantastic, but it sounds really expensive. And so I just started again applying for scholarships. It was in books that day, not not online, or anything like that. So I'd look through books, and I'm like, Oh, this Fulbright scholarship seems amazing and boy, it covers a lot. I'm going to give that a go. And I was fortunate enough to get the Fulbright scholarship. And then from that, I got to study do an MBA in the US, because Fulbright is us related, and Yale University spoke to my heart, because it had this wonderful combination of both really strong finance and that side of it, but it also had a really strong non not for profit side. And so you had this really collective, really different, diverse student body. So it was amazing. So that's how I got to

17:56 go there. David Gonski: Sounds good. Let me ask you. I mean, you were, when I look at it, made a CEO very young. There are many in this room. Some are CEOs, but there are many who aspire to it. I suppose the first question I'd ask is, was it a good thing to take on such a heavy role at such a young age? Would you recommend it? And second, how does one actually cope with it at a young age, with all the things that are going on in one's life? Deanne Stewart: Well, first of all, I would say, if you get that opportunity, hell yeah. So I am very definitive about that, because I think you get to have such an impact, and you get to shape a culture in a way that is, is just it is incredible

18:46 from that perspective. Is more why I say, hell yeah. I think I was fortunate in the sense of I had had, like, it was not a bit of roses my lead up to being a CEO by any stretch of the imagination. And I do often emphasise that, because I think you often look at CEOs, or you look at someone like David Gonski, and you're like, Wow, that's amazing. I could never be that. That that seems like just different to me, but the reality is, we're all human, and I think every person has such potential inside them. It's often how you unlock that, and sometimes it's also luck. And so for me, getting to be CEO was certainly a degree of hard determination. It was hard knocks, and it was a

19:31 bit of luck, and it was that sort of combination. And so I think it was actually, in some ways, the hard knocks that got me to be able to be far more resilient and take on a role like this, because I had moments where I nearly burnt out. And so learning how to cope with that, when you then taking on bigger and bigger roles in a way, in a weird, perverse way. I was fortunate to have that experience because it made me a better person and a better CEO. David Gonski: I want to dwell a bit, because you talk about almost burnout and so on. When you look at the expectations now, particularly, say people like me have been around a long time. The expectations and the external view of CEO has grown and grown. How does one handle that? And after all, you know,

20:20 we're all human, and you've got to try and continue one's own life. Do you feel that there are, you know, tricks you can tell us? Or indeed. Yeah, things that can actually drive you to actually get through those clouds. Deanne Stewart: Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. First of all, I would say, and it's certainly a mantra of mine, and and I, I Am, therefore, very deliberate in this now, is that there is no two CEOs that are the same, and I think it's really important that CEOs look and act really differently, and that there should not be just one formula. So what I'm about to say worked for me, but it may not work for others, but I think it is important that people see very different types of people

21:06 in CEOs, and that act differently and do things differently, so that, in a way, takes a bit of pressure off me, because I don't look and act like many other CEOs. I'm on a mission to sort of do it my way and show that being a CEO, there's many different paths to it, so I start there that takes pressure off myself. But secondly, I would say, and I have learned this the hard way, whether you're CEO or whether you're in some other role, there's things that give you energy and really propel you forward, and then there's things that sap that energy, and just even the simplest tasks are really hard to do. And I did find that the hard way. And what I find is, if you feel very connected to an organisation

21:55 that shares your values deep down and is really purpose driven, it's amazing how much more fuel that gives you. And then, if you're in a work environment that is really humming and is safe and is collaborative and is fun, that gives you energy. And so for me, I've learned that that is the environment that I will thrive in, and I see others thrive in. And so that's what I construct, that then actually makes you far more resilient, that when things come your way, or you get hit with different things, if you're feeling safe, if you're in an environment and you've got an amazing leaders, an amazing

22:40 chair, then that actually really does provide, I think, a lot of the resilience you need. And then the final thing that I'd say that is certainly a big part of who I am is be very clear on what does give you your energy and have boundaries. And I've learned that the hard way. And one of those elements for me is I must exercise. And so I definitely exercise at least five or six times a week, and it is really part of just giving me the energy to get through the day. It certainly helps from a mental health perspective, and I love it, so yeah. David Gonski: I was getting a bit scared you say five or six times a day. Deanne Stewart: Do I say a day or no? No, I'd love to, but no, David Gonski: You've touched on it, and I just want to elaborate

23:25 a little bit on it. I mean, you've actually not just been CEO, but you've led a large financial organisations, you know, whether it be even at a BT or whatever, where you weren't the CEO, but you're the top person. Can you reflect a bit on some of the defining lessons and challenges that were there? Because we all need to learn, and it's good to hear other people's lessons. Deanne Stewart: Yeah, and if I, if you don't mind, I might go for two of, probably more, the real lower to then actually real learning moments. Because I think it is important that people hear that, that, as I said, Life is not a bed of roses. One of the moments was definitely I had just left McKinsey & Company and started in New York at Merrill Lynch and

24:14 I was meant to be running marketing for an international business unit. What I worked out later is that they essentially were like, Ah, it's McKinsey & Company person. That's a cheap way of getting them to do a strategy on this international business unit and whether we should shut it down or because it was losing money, or whether it's actually what needs to be done to turn it around. And so I did do that strategy for them. And then the Chief Operating Officer of Merrill Lynch, at the time, turned around to me, and he literally said, and I was 29 years of age, he said, right. Will you go and run this international business unit now? And at that time I cried. I said, No, I can't do it. And he said, Go and think about that tonight, and come back and let's have a conversation tomorrow.

25:03 And and I think the reason that I cried was more just shock and a little bit that I didn't know whether I could really do it, and there were two very senior managing directors that had been in the organisation for 25 years. What did I know at 29 years of age and only been there for six months? So I just didn't know if I could really do it. But he saw something in me and saw that potential, and that's such a reminder to me of that courage. And his words to me were "Deanne, stop thinking so small. Think big. You've got it in you", and that has stayed with me ever since, that courage, that importance of being courageous in those moments. Thank goodness he was courageous for me. So that has never left me. But fast forward all the years, I would also say, and I touched on it, there was a

25:49 moment, certainly in my career, where on the outside I may have looked successful because I had got several promotions in a row, but on the inside I was actually really I had young kids. I was finding it hard to balance it all, but I also was really not aligned with the values, the culture and the leadership of the organisation. And it was really, it was really draining and sapping me. And so what I learned from that experience was just how important being really, you know, a lot of self reflection as to what are your values, what does give you joy? What? What do you What difference do you want to make? What is your purpose? And then really make sure that that lines

26:37 up with whatever you're doing, because life is too short. And so they were two moments that, you know, I can't say they were the highlights, but they certainly propelled me in really different directions that I'm so grateful for now. David Gonski: Well, you're obviously, I mean, just listening to the way you answer the question. You're a thinking person, and by the way, and I'm happy to take it up with anybody on the way out to cry, I think is a very human thing, no seriously, there are too many people who hold it back when they actually should. Deanne Stewart: Totally I have a box of tissues in my office, and I'm like, bring it on. David Gonski: Who's the tissues for, sorry? Deanne Stewart: Well, if I get like I do often think we're way

27:25 too much in a professional setting that you need to show up and just be super professional and act a little bit robotic. And the reality is, most people have real highs and lows going on in their life. And they may have they may be dealing with a sick kid, they may be dealing with divorce, they may be dealing with parents with dementia, you know, whatever. And sometimes actually just being really human in a meeting can make such a difference because they feel seen and heard. So I say it in that context, rather than I make people cry all the time. David Gonski: I never suggest, can we move then from just talking specifically about you, but about some of the things that you represent, and you're very strong on a lot of issues? Let's start because, you know, I'm not allowed not to, to talk

28:13 about diversity and inclusion. And by the way, according to our security people, by just saying that, I've got a hand in my phone before I go to to America. But you are very, very keen on that. Yeah, the question that we all have to deal with is, you know, is that going to survive the discussion that's going on now? And in your view, not only will it survive, but should it? Deanne Stewart: I totally believe in my heart that it will survive this blip, and you just need to look at what happened overnight in New York as an example of the power and importance of diversity. But for me, it just makes good sense. I mean, I think Warren Buffett says it best when he says, "why would you go and play with, you know, half a deck of cards?" You

28:59 know, ultimately, it's as simple as that, but you can make it far more complex. And so if I look at it from a superannuation lens, in a pure investment sense. There's so much research that shows more diverse executive teams and boards leads to better share performance. So you can start there in a pure value investment perspective. But an organisation like Aware Super, two thirds of our members are women, and so you absolutely need an organisation that is reflecting the member base that you serve. So that is certainly an important one. And in superannuation, you see a gender gap appear. So there's a 25% gap of the retirement balances of men and women. And so that is

29:48 not exactly what you'd call a fair system, and so that is certainly something that I feel passionate about and advocate for. But then in just in terms of a team and a workforce perspective, I mean, you know those moments when you're watching and you're seeing really different perspectives come to the table, and you can see an idea building, and you can see innovation or just a really great idea building, and building, you need people with really different perspectives to do that. And if I think about some of those breakthrough moments that we've had where we've really been innovative and really bold, they are very different people at the table. In a really diverse way, and that's why it works, so I feel passionate about it on many dimensions.

30:36 David Gonski: And that's fantastic. Let me ask you, then the next thing, you've overseen the divestment from thermal coal through your many funds, and you were one of the first to do that. Do you think we're doing enough? Well, I suppose. Do you think we're doing enough in relation to the environment, and do you think that stopping investment that way actually does that? Deanne Stewart: Yeah, it's a great question. And certainly, if I explain where we have come from, and I think many funds also come from, is ultimately you have a fiduciary responsibility for the retirement savings of your members. And so while some members might be retiring tomorrow, a member that's joining us today may not be

31:22 retiring until the 2070s if you can believe that. And so you have to have that long term perspective and that enduring value perspective, and you'll definitely see that in many superannuation funds as their mindset. Then you with a longer term frame of mind, you go, Well, what are some of the biggest risks that we are facing, that if you do not get this right, they will destroy value within a portfolio, and climate risk is right up there. And so for us, the reason that we actually moved on thermal coal versus anything else in terms of fossil fuels is actually more about the stranded cost. Ultimately, the world of thermal coal is far more

32:08 expensive than where renewables and many other options are going and so for us, we were like, well, we're not smart enough to work out when pure play thermal coals are going to be just complete stranded assets and the value will just plummet. So that is actually a really good risk to actually protect our members from. But we are certainly invested in fossil fuel companies, and that's when the sort of engagement with those organisations and your voting rights and governance of those organisations becomes a really important role of stewardship of our members' money. David Gonski: Can you see everybody what I'm doing? I've just written down all the issues I've got to look at, just getting Deanne to answer you quite smart, but I have another

32:54 one that's and I think it's on most people's minds, and that's the question of cyber security. I mean, the question, by the way, I'd like to ask you, firstly, is, is it our responsibility as big companies to be perfect on cyber security? And second, are we actually doing enough? Whether we have the responsibility to be perfect or not. Deanne Stewart: I suspect there is no such thing as being perfect on cyber security. And you're right. This is good for all. Board directors must be very concerned about cyber security, so I would say there's no I don't know that there is such a thing as perfect. I think the mindset that I know we do certainly have it Aware Super is it's not a matter of if

33:39 something's going to happen. It's a matter of when. And you absolutely have to plan with that in mind, what can you do to prevent it as much as possible? But if, in the case of an attack, what can you do? Because ultimately, and and with the onslaught of Gen AI and what's coming, this is only going to accelerate, and so are we doing enough? I would argue, as a as both a country as an economy, and certainly within the superannuation industry, and I know there's a few here that would completely agree with me. No, we're not, and we need to do more and more, and quite frankly, the more we do in concerted you don't get a competitive advantage in cyber. Ultimately, is one of those, if one goes down in a way that

34:26 loses trust in your whole industry. So from a superannuation context, if you think about those huge savings, someone's whole life savings that could go in a cyber attack, we cannot do enough, and we must get far more coordinated in the way that we look about this. And so I'm very so no Lexus here knows I'm very passionate about this topic, because that is certainly something that we need to do, but boards need to do that and get right across it as well. And I think often, what I observe in boards is they go, well, there's one member of the board that knows about cyber, so we're good, we've ticked that, and they can ask the questions, no, actually, all board directors and all executives must come up to scratch on this, because it is one of the biggest risks that's out there.

35:13 David Gonski: And I think in view of what's happened in the last couple of years, we're all realising, I think you're absolutely right. Let me you talked about perhaps losing the savings of somebody. Let me talk to you a little bit about risk and reward. I mean, you know, one can be very risk averse, and of course, you might have a happy life because you don't lose somebody's savings, but on the other hand, you may not make a return on those savings which is useful to them. How do you allow yourself to be comfortable with the risk and the reward in relation to what you're doing in the various funds? Deanne Stewart: It's a great question, and often we it is such an important role that you play as a superannuation fund is

35:59 actually, in a way, investing is much more about risk than it is about return. Return is almost the outcome of the risk that you're deliberately determining to make. And so even the way that you construct a portfolio, and that degree of diversification, which is certainly why big funds like Aware Super has have a very diverse portfolio that's both global and Australian, that is both listed and unlisted, is actually to really balance out that risk, to get The best possible return for that degree of risk. So certainly that is taken into consideration. But we have also designed our main fund to actually deliberately create different risk levels depending on where you're at in life. So arguably, if you're in your 20s

36:45 or 30s or 40s, you have got decades before you retire. So we have got them in pretty high octane, high growth assets, because they can take on that risk. But as they're heading towards retirement, where actually your life savings means so much more, because they become your paycheck, we ratchet down the level of risk that they're in, and we design it deliberately with risk in mind. David Gonski: Sounds excellent. I want, I want to ask you a question that means a lot to me. I mean, you're one of the busiest people in our business world, and you still find time to sit on the board of a wonderful organisation like Red Kite, which is a not for profit. Why is it important to you that you are on not for profits? Why do you find that extra time? Or

37:32 do you just feel you should? Deanne Stewart: I think it almost we could end where we began, which is back to that values and knowing your own values. If I go back to watching and observing my mum and dad and seeing the impact that they had, I always knew that however I can help, I will help. But then Red Kite, for those of you who don't know, is a beautiful charity that looks after families that are going through childhood cancer. And I had a friend that had her she had twins, and her 11 year old was diagnosed with leukemia, and just seeing what she went through, and unfortunately, her daughter passed away, and so just seeing what she went through, the grief, but also how an

38:19 organisation like Red Kite really helped her through that, you know, for me, that is an absolute ability to give back. I don't want to be disingenuous, though I've probably been able to do more of that more recently, as my kids have got older, I had it in my heart when my kids were younger, but I was just, you know, trying to get through my job and look after the kids and and that side. So for me, I feel really fortunate at this stage in life where I can make those trade offs, and my son doing the HSC at the moment does not really need me to drop him off or pick him up at the school yard. He needs me in different ways. So it enables me to do different things as well. David Gonski: I think it's wonderful, but it's interesting going from that to the question of trust. I mean, so many people

39:06 approach me. I'm sure they approach you, sure they approach Alexis as well, and talk about the loss of trust that the public and others consumers have in big organisations. Not totally sure that's right, but maybe I ask you, is it right? And if it is right, then the second question is, basically, is being a human whether it be crying or getting involved in Red Kite. Is that going to help? Deanne Stewart: Well, I guess at the macro level, if you look at I mean, I guess what I would refer to is something like the Edelman that does sort of the macro and interestingly that that is definitely down in terms of trust for all institutions, but the one that's held up slightly higher has been

39:53 business, but it's certainly still down. So there's certainly something we're getting right from a business perspective, that I don't think all trust is lost, but if I think about the trust that you have in a human there is real parallels to the trust you have in an organisation. So when you meet someone you know, do they appear authentic? Do they seem like they have strong values and high integrity? I would say the exact same of organisations. Are they true to label, i.e. when they say they'll do something, do they do that? Is there value in that? Do they are they an organisation? That's really thought about social license and their actual reason for being, and how do they hold themselves in moments of crisis. So I think

40:39 organisations that have built that trust over time are doing those things right, pretty similar to what humans do. So maybe there is a very strong parallel there. David Gonski: I think there is, well done. Now, as my 30 minutes went by just like that, and probably not, probably not for you, but it did at the end of it, apparently the new thing in education is you've got to have rapid fire questions. Rapid fire questions, right? When I was told, I thought I have to do them quickly. But in fact, you have to answer them quickly. Deanne Stewart: Oh, okay. David Gonski: And there are only three. Deanne Stewart: Oh, okay, all right. David Gonski: Question one is, what brings you joy outside of work? Deanne Stewart: Family, friends, exercise. David Gonski: Fantastic. Deanne Stewart: What's too literal?

41:26 David Gonski: I love it. What's one word that best describes your leadership style? If you can do it in one word, you are doing really well. Deanne Stewart: Yeah, I'm cheating, I'm taking two. Driven and caring. David Gonski: I'll pay that and the final one, what's something you do each day? I think I can guess this each day that helps you stay grounded. You do it six times a day. Deanne Stewart: Yeah, yeah, six times a week. Yes, definitely exercise. But I would certainly add, anyone that has kids, you will know this. There is nothing like your kids keeping you grounded. My daughter is off at Melbourne Uni, unfortunately at the moment, but my son at the dinner table, he's always telling me, I'm a dag. I know nothing. And what would I know? So yeah.

42:12 David Gonski: I think that's the best one word answer. Now we're going to ask if there are questions from the floor, but we have been inundated with questions already. Obviously people want to ask, so I've picked two. One of them I wanted to ask. I won't tell you which one and I deliberately didn't so they could do it. Aware Super is known both for delivering strong long term returns and for being a leader in responsible investing, when you face situations where pursuing the best financial return might seem to conflict with taking the best and strong stance in an ESG manner, like voting on a company's climate change policy or plan. How do you strike the

42:58 right balance between protecting members retirement savings and pushing for positive change in the community? Deanne Stewart: That's a great question and and I do get asked it a bit certainly, what I would say is there is no doubt in my mind and the whole team's mind that our job is to get the best possible returns for our members. That is superior. That is number one goal by a mile. But to achieve that, particularly when you're a superannuation fund that's investing not just in one year, but in many years to come, actually, really being mindful of the environmental, the social and the governance risks that lay in your portfolio is

43:46 paramount to actually adding value. So we don't see them as two separate things. If your timeframe is a short timeframe, then yes, there is definitely a trade off at moments. But you just have to look at some of the issues and what's really detracted from value in companies just in the last couple of months. It might be really poor governance. It might be that they haven't thought about their humans in their organisation and made sure that it's a safe place free of harassment and bullying, or they might not have thought about the resilience required with climate change in full force. So for us, we actually look at it and go they are the real risks, and there's opportunities to those as well that actually add value,

44:34 and that's the way that we look at it. And my little both as one of the top performing funds. It's certainly working for us, but we would say, please, media, everyone stop looking at one year returns, because when funds become shorter term in nature, I think that is often being driven by this peer comparison that is driven in a one year sense, and we make sure that our incentives, our KPIs, etc, are much longer term. But it's hard not to hone in on that as well. David Gonski: Very good answer. The second one is, how is Aware Super planning to use and everybody was saying, how come he didn't ask a question on AI. Here it is, how are you planning

45:23 to use AI beyond chat bots to improve service and help members maximise their super balances? Deanne Stewart: Another great question, so I certainly will. I'll give a personal perspective, but an organisational perspective. I'm definitely in the camp of I am a huge believer in AI and where it's going and how it will reshape almost every corner of our organisation. And but there is definitely some risk there, and we've spent a lot of time on looking at AI governance and where the risks are to make sure that as we go on this journey, we're doing it as safely as we possibly can. But for me, I certainly think that if you think about something like superannuation, the number one

46:09 thing we hear from members is it's so complex, and I don't know where to start, and I don't know, well, generative AI is going to solve a lot of that. And so your ability to actually in a native language, and just asking the questions that you have that will reshape, I do think, how you serve, how you guide members, and it will have a really significant impact in our industry. That's been a really complex one, but it will go well beyond that. It will certainly, really, I think, reshape how investments are done. And that side of like, yeah, I could go on for quite a while on this one.

47:01 Guest Speaker: Thanks. Greg Hogan, tonight, there's a there's a meeting at the town hall where the Lord Mayor is handing out the Peace Prize to judge Billy from National Court of Justice. And down the road there's the final night of the international weapon manufacturers Expo, but I'm here tonight rather than those other two. Deanne Stewart: Thank you. Guest Speaker: Busy calendar. Do you want to ask you to expand upon this idea of responsible investing? Should a superintendation fund invest in weapon manufacturers? Deanne Stewart: Thank you. Great question, and certainly very topical as well, and particularly when you think about how important defense is and where it's going. And

47:47 there's a there's really two sides to this. So the way that we've approached it from a responsible investment perspective is, well, first of all, what you certainly want to do in an overall context is use engagement in a positive way, but also not exclude so many things that you actually aren't trying to get the best returns. But you should also offer options for those that feel very strongly about it. So if you look at our main default fund, what we do do is exclude controversial weapons and weapons of mass impact. But we certainly do invest in companies like an Airbus or companies that actually, while they might have a main component of aircraft,

48:33 they are actually involved in weaponry or drone organisations, et cetera. So in our main fund, we certainly invest in organisations like that. We invest in the index, we invest in organisations like that, in our socially conscious option, though, for members, and we have a lot of members that choose that socially conscious option, that is where we exclude things like that, and that way, we're giving members choice dependent on their value set, but also making sure that we're not having a significant impact. We then use our engagement and our voting lever to actually try and move organisations to act in the best interest of members, but they're the different levers that we we use. And there's no perfect answers to these, and

49:19 you'll definitely find different super funds will take different approaches on that. David Gonski: Thanks Deanne. Another question, yes, there's one over here if we. Guest Speaker: Hi Deanne. My question is, what has been the hardest decision you had to make since you become CEO? David Gonski: That you can talk about. Deanne Stewart: Look, and I won't talk about it explicitly. I do think some of your hardest decisions that you make as a CEO and as a senior leader are often people related right? Because ultimately, what you need to do as an organisation and as a CEO

50:05 is make sure that you've got the right people, the right capability for where you need to go, not necessarily from where you've been, and at times, not too often, but certainly, there have been times where you have to make decisions of someone that has had amazing input into an organisation, amazing capability, but they don't necessarily have the capability for where you're going and I would say they are the ones that I lose the sleep. I really lose sleep over but as CEO, you do have to make some of those tough decisions at times. David Gonski: There's one over there. Thank you. Guest Speaker: As professors, we have access to a platform we get to educate our students. What advice would you give for those that are keen to join purpose driven, I guess, industries or

50:55 organisations, or maybe even better, to those that want to see that you mentioned, life is short, but the culture in their organisation doesn't align. I mean, it's hard when they're first starting out. Deanne Stewart: That's a really hard one. So first of all, if they're looking to join purpose like come to Aware, that's an easy one. No, I do think, I do think it is really important that that, that if that is something that is a real interest to a student, that they do actually really look up What's their purpose, what's their value, what's their leaders, and actually get a real sense of it. Because there's a lot of organisations that say this is their purpose, or say

51:42 this is their values, but they're just on a piece of paper, and they don't live and breathe it. The best way you can do that is just talking to people that work in the organisation or have worked in the organisation, that's the fastest way of working that out. In terms of this is the second bit to your question, though, is, is one that that I don't have a perfect answer to, which is, if you're really young in an organisation, or you're in an organisation and you don't you're not comfortable with the culture of the organisation. How do you impact that? And the reason I feel torn is that I do think that you can have an impact, and within your immediate team, you can really set a different tone and a different barometer. But I also don't want to be pollyannaish in

52:28 that there's only so much then you can do and you will continue to get impacted. And I know I speak from firsthand of attempting to do that in an organisation. I'm really wanting to really make a difference, and I was able to do it within the team, but I definitely was hamstrung because I ultimately wasn't the leader, I wasn't a group executive, and so that was, that was a bit of a turning point in my mind, where I was like, right? I am going to be CEO and actually find a way of doing this differently and prove that this can be done really differently. So that's not a perfect answer, but it's probably a real answer. David Gonski: Down in the front, although I think Camilla has

53:13 asked a lot of questions, go for it. Guest Speaker: Being one of the leaders in your field. How do you so what's next? And how do you find growth? Because people look to you to grow them, but how do you grow yourself? David Gonski: Good question. Deanne Stewart: Oh, these are great questions tonight. I am well two things, one is probably more of a mega thing, and one's more of a just who I am, like I genuinely believe there's almost not a day that doesn't go by where you aren't learning

53:58 something, right? And so for me, a lot of that personal growth is a real learning mindset of I am not perfect, and I will never be perfect, and actually, there's something to learn from even this week, man, I was slammed with some hard feedback from one of the group executives, and I was like, huh? And instead of sort of like reacting defensively, I was like, actually, there's a real message here. She's helping me grow. I'm going to take that on board and ask more questions. And so I think almost in any situation, you can always grow every day. And I'm an avid listener to podcasts and research and like for that, for me, I'm just a curious person, so I grow in that way. But I think having led an organisation of Aware Super

54:46 and the ex chair is here tonight, Neil Cochrane, who was an amazing chair. We have had such a journey through that period of time. So I definitely self reflect now, and I go, okay, do I have it in me to take it to the next chapter, or should I seed that? You know? And so I go through those thoughts myself. But at the moment, what I would say, and I'm sure Lex would agree with me as well, is, our whole industry is changing now. We've been a great savings machine in accumulation mode, but as more and more Australians are in retirement mode or retiring, the system really needs to change. And and I feel super excited about that. And so for me, there's so much innovation. Action there, but there's so much understanding consumers and what retirement is today versus

55:34 what it was when the system was created 30 odd years ago. Retirement looks very different now. And so being able to really lead and lead the thinking in that, for me, is massive growth opportunity, not just for Aware, but I think, for the industry as a whole as well. Guest Speaker: This is probably a good follow on question. I guess you were talking about looking at people retiring in 2070 right, where some of this room will be, will not be here anymore. How do you David Gonski: speak for yourself.

56:19 Guest Speaker: The wrong way to start a question. I mean, how do you how do you keep your workforce engaged, knowing that they might not be working for Aware, or they might be the ones retiring, but it's such a long term vision. Yeah, and we live in such a quick, moving, transactional environment right now. How do you keep them motivated and engaged, knowing that what they're working towards, they might not be at Aware to see, see it come to fruition? Deanne Stewart: Another beautiful question so well, what, what I often say, and, and I hope this resonates, is, at the end of the day, what we're doing at Aware or wherever you

57:04 are, you, it is not about you. It is about what legacy Are you leaving for the time to come on? You are just, we're just stewards of this moment in time, right? And so what do we want to be known as stewards in this period of time that we've really helped shape? And so actually, our purpose, which was created in a workshop, we had like 40 different workshops. Why are you here? And what's your why was, ultimately the workshops, and these words came out of workshop, which was, I'm here because I really want to make a difference. I want to be a force for good. And so we then actually created the purpose out of that, to be a force for good, to shape the best possible

57:51 future for our members, their families, the community and the industry at large. We come back to that again and again in the things that we're doing. And so while they know they're building that for the future, for 2070 they're also building it for tomorrow and the next. So we certainly have a short term focus to that, and a longer term focus. But I do encourage the team to think of themselves just literally as stewards for a point in time for a much bigger chapter. Hopefully we're around in hundreds of years to come, still creating the best possible future. So that's the way. And I do think the more you do, bring your team back to the underlying core reason why you exist, and really bring members or customer stories to life, your employee

58:39 stories to life, that is where people get energised and motivated. It's not in the numbers and the spreadsheets as much as we might like to think. David Gonski: I think we're being blinked at. So I'll have to bring this to an end. But can I just go back to what I said right at the beginning. I said the evidence once we have interrogated of how wonderful our product is at UNSW will be clear, and I think that's absolutely the case. Your answers are just brilliant. Congratulations. And we're very lucky tonight to have the wonderful Shemara from Macquarie Bank, who's another CEO. In fact, we've got CEOs all over the place. University of New South Wales is the CEO

59:25 manufacturer of the world, and Shemara will say it better than me, so why don't you come up and do the vote of thanks. Shemara Wikramanayake: Yeah, it's a real honor to get to say a thank you to that you know, for all of us, such an inspiring conversation and so apt for David's last of his Meet the CEOs to get to interview Deanne. And I know lots of us will have taken away a lot from that, but for me, I've always thought everybody, all of us, are a product of our nurture and our nature. And it was beautiful to hear this story of you know your parents in Bathurst as school teachers, inspiring you about making a difference in the world, and also your

1:00:12 psychologist guitar teacher. But you know that, coupled with your nature of you were saying wanting to go out and explore the world, initially, that got you to go and take that Co Op scholarship and go to UNSW and the Fulbright and go to McKinsey's and Merrill's and Bankers Trust. But ultimately. You know this thing you say, the Aware objective of being a force for good, which you can hear, is your objective, as you know, whether it's what you're doing at Aware, what you're doing at Red Kite, what you're doing as a Mum by sounds a bit, which we all go through being tried we are by our kids. But really, you know, focusing on the best outcomes for them. And as a friend, I'm sure, because I've known you mostly through work we do as partners for the members of Aware to drive these incredible retirement outcomes. But that was just beautiful,

1:01:00 getting to hear that story and every question you answered, you could see the maths geek and the psychologist together. You were just across the detail and analytic on everything but big picture. How are we trying to change the world with all of these things? So that was, it was just such a fitting last Meet the CEO. I think that would have been one of your great Meet the CEOs. So I want to say huge thanks first to Deanne. So if we could applaud. But I also want to take the chance to thank David, because he's been supporting this incredible Meet the CEO series for so long now, and played a key role in it. And

1:01:45 he has an incredible ability, as you can see as an interviewer, to draw out all the personal and the professional reflections I experienced this in 2022 when you do this with me and do it in such a warm, witty way that the conversation just flows So David, well done on that. And thank you for doing this for so long when you have so many other demands on your time as well. But also, I wanted to say on behalf of all of us, UNSW alumni, you know, we were having embarrassed to say 40 year law school reunion, so I don't think I'm going to be around in 2017 do that math, but basically, we were discussing that. David, we all went to the law school when it was about 10 years old. David went when it was in its second year, and the university was 23

1:02:31 years old, and he had his choice of where to go. He was one of those, you know, whiz kid Sydney grammar graduates. Everybody wanted him. And he chose this new law school. And by the time we came along, alumni like him had given it already such a name, together with this incredible socratic teaching method. And, you know, we all had different reasons for going there. And David's told me a little bit about his thinking and why he chose this alternative school. I went because I thought I could be a bit of a rebel and still be conventional and not take many risks. But, and you talked about why you went because of the scholarship, but it was also having alumni like David, where we thought, wow, look at these people. They're doing awesome things. They were really successful professionally already by then. And since then,

1:03:17 David, you went back and taught. So I was at university, and he was coming and doing basically intellectual property lectures for us, and then came back as our first alumnus, Chancellor, and has made such an impact in the last two decades. I can't imagine what we're going to do now without David, you still won't chairman in the room, but I just wanted to say, David, huge thanks for what you have done, for positioning this law school. You're so in demand and have such ability, and everyone's been after you, and you've given life and soul to this. And I know friends and colleagues that work there that say you answered their call within minutes, you're caring so much about it. So on behalf of Meet the CEO and also the

1:04:05 students and the alumni of UNSW and also the business and education community, I wanted to say a huge thank you to you for everything you've done, and also Deanne for letting him finish on such a high note, probably the best Meet the CEO we've had, so thank you. And all that's left for me to do is to invite you out into the foyer there of this beautiful gallery, which also David not only has that been involved in but shaped this place in terms of finding the architects and all of that, and we're going to hold a networking reception where we can continue the conversation. But thank you to all of you as well. Applause.