Degree Versus Connections || Gwada Ogot

0:00 There is a fraternity, a group of people who work so hard every day in this country, very hard but they earn very little. Then there's another small group of people who earn very big with very little effort. I am telling [music] you today if you subjected the CEOs and the top executives of our paristatals and even in government many of them just asked them to write a one-page working or two or a four-page working paper or a concept note on what they want to do something some specialized form of writing you will see the mess we are in they can't write they can read >> what's the relationship ship between

0:46 writing and competence. [music] If you believe this is your then this message is for you. Please allow me to plug it to K and K pre-cast engineering to introduce you to a concept where you can build better and spend less. Now with the technology that you get the same quality traditional housing or even struggle found that you bridges

1:35 Now K and K precast Engineering Limited that same technology for residential homes, apartment blocks and all matters construction. Now the deal is even better. Also note that K&K precast engineering limited on build capacity. Yeah. full construction process all the way from the foundation to finishing. For more inquiries, get in touch with the team at K&K precast engineering through the contact details. Consider yourself. Hello. Our guest for this episode um is introductionally. The introduction um the profile of our guest for this episode I believe can fit in an encyclopedia. His name is a familiar

2:23 name to many. Guada. >> In all the things you have done, what do you what would you like what do you like to identify with? >> Wow. You ask some very hard questions. [laughter] >> Easy. >> Um I like to identify with uh my God who I serve very faithfully. I like to identify with the goodness and the kindness of humanity. >> Mhm. >> And I also like to identify with the light which is essentially to identify not just with goodness but with the benefits of light such as knowledge,

3:09 such as culture. >> Mhm. >> And humanity or humanness. Ah >> yes, >> we're about to hear so much of that uh on this episode. There's a disconnect. >> Yes. >> When you say you identify with God. >> Yes. >> The goodness of humanity. >> Yes. >> Um there's a phrase Yeah. Oh, humanity still exists. >> Yes. >> Because there is the other side of humanity. In fact, if you ask me, uh minus civilization, human beings are brutal. In fact, human beings are the most dangerous animals in the world. >> True. >> So the goodness of humanity is a segment of humanity or it's humanity in general. >> It is humanity comprehensively and it is

3:56 based on the principle and the belief that the human being is not innately born defective. that the human being can be good, can be kind, can be generous, >> can be humble, uh can be cultured, must not be abusive, must just be able to live a cultured life, that man can live and let fellow man live. You don't subscribe to the idea that some behavior let's let me use the word behavior is inherited and has nothing to do with the human be with the individual human being. Also uh some some of the things that would be considered inhuman

4:41 >> yes >> can be can be associated in fact with empirical evidence >> to the chemical composition of a particular individual. Indeed, that is true. But I uh I get my the basis for this under what has been summarized in the Holy Bible as the Ten Commandments. >> Probably it's probably the greatest moral code that ever existed. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not lie. Thou shalt not coveret. And on and on. And that those 10 principles summarize the idealness of life. And therefore they become an objective towards which we all must work to achieve. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> To aspire to get to.

5:28 >> We have this because human beings miners a certain code of ethics are very unethical. >> Yes. Human beings like everybody else >> require a lot of uh order and guidance. They require um human human life requires uh a a map >> for which it operates. One that is based on values and uh the dos and the don'ts. Like everything else on earth, you have two specific features or perspectives, a binary one. You have light and darkness. You have left and you have right. You

6:13 have the old testament and the new testament. You have good and bad. So once you understand that human life is a balance and there in in in in in philosophy there's something called the perfect balance. The perfect balance of light. When you walk you're a symmetrical being. Your hands are balanced. your legs are balanced and what is called uh um the perfect balance that cuts across. There's a there's a a word for it. I'll give it to you shortly. Um everything is a balance and uh that balance is what we pursue. Actually the entire effort of

6:59 life is to pursue a balance. That is why the car has four tires. Balance. The chair has four legs. Balance. The cameras are tripods. Balances the table. Balance. When you walk, balance. When you play football or any sport, the objective is the perfect balance. >> That is why when people lift the trophy, they lift it with two hands. >> Because the team that has won is the most balanced team. >> As you're dribbling, you don't fall. Balance. In rugby, as you're cutting through, balance. In basketball, as you're shooting, balance. So, the key objective of life is to maintain a

7:45 perfect balance because if you don't, then you fall. >> Okay. >> Yes. But but uh we go back to uh so human beings need uh rules to abide by. Yes. >> Because they are not born moral like morality is not internal. It is not um in should is this in intrinsic or extrinsic? It is not from intrinsic. >> Yes. Um when we are born we are born without any software. We begin to acquire the software through interactions. >> Mhm. >> Through vision. >> Mhm. >> Uh through physical touch and through

8:32 relation with uh uh nature and all its products. We start hearing what our parents say. We start hearing what our peers speak of and through that we start developing a software that guides our thinking through most of our lives. >> Mhm. >> So if you are born when people where in a land where people walk with one hand like this >> the day you find people walking with two hands like this you will think they're abnormal. >> Mhm. >> So it is we are conditioned by circumstances. Yes. >> Okay. Yes. >> Okay. So, uh you also mentioned um you identify with light. >> Yes.

9:17 >> Uh in the evils circles >> in the devil's kingdom. >> Yes. >> They identify as light. Hence the Illuminati. >> Yes. Yes. >> Uh what's the difference? >> I think let us first understand the the context of light. >> Mhm. We as human beings are agencies of light. Our entire life and scripting is based on our relationship with light. >> Mhm. >> When as a male you wake up in the morning, the first thing that triggers is your private area in the morning at 5 and that triggers >> because the light is returning. >> Even if you you did not sleep with the

10:04 lights on. >> Yes. But we know the big light, the light of the sun, the energy from the sun. Cuz light is energy. Light is not just light. Light is energy. Light is heat. >> So the original alam is the private part. >> That is what wakes you up first whether you like it or not. And it is only because that light is returning. Then the moment that light returns, you get out of the bed. You change your instrument. The instrument of the night is to lie flat and come at us. But the instrument of the day is to sit on a chair. You cannot sleep in the day. If you sleep in the day, you're either sick or lazy. >> So one denotes power and one denotes weakness. >> As far as the sun is concerned,

10:50 >> the sun does not go to sleep. I believe as per what we were taught in science. >> Yes. >> The world being sphere spherical. >> So when the sun goes >> Yes. >> So So the clock dicks in the other part of the world I >> let me explain further. >> There are two forms of light. >> One is called incandent light >> which is light that is very straight. That is the light of the sun. >> Mhm. >> That is the light that pierces like a spear. >> Mhm. >> That is why during the day >> you're upright and walking. >> Mhm. Then when it gets to evening at 6 as the light retires >> yes >> and the moonlight starts relaying its

11:36 light you get what is called lumicandant light that is cold light and the other one is hot light. Cold light has very little energy. So what happens is the more that light retires your eyes also start losing power and energy. You go >> until you sleep. So as the light is gone, you are flat and comeos and your legs are disconnected from the ground which is also an energy source. Then in the morning you put your legs back down, get up, clothe yourselves and start again with energy because the the the main source of light and energy in the world is one the sun. And the sun s u n is also the sun s o n. Hence the

12:22 resurrection. So now without losing that train of thought >> same same thread >> so if your private part connects to the light to wake you up in the morning. >> Yeah. >> So for the people who use that part at night >> you wake it up and use it. That means you're forcing the light. >> No no no. >> Uh you see you need to understand the peak hours of of [snorts] the cycle of uh of the clock. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> 6:00 a.m. >> Mhm. >> Peak hour. What do you do in the peak hour? >> You get up and you light a fire. >> And the first thing you relate with when you wake up is water. >> Water to wash, water to brush your teeth. >> Mhm. >> And water to put on the fire. >> Mhm.

13:08 >> Then at the next peak hour, it is 12:00 noon, you light another fire. >> Mhm. >> For lunch and put >> water on it again. Water. >> Mhm. Then in the evening at 6:00, you light another fire. >> Mhm. >> And you put water on it again. >> When you put the 12 Yes. >> plus the six and the six, you get 24-hour cycle. >> It's all a matrix. >> Mhm. >> Then in the place where we live called Kenya. >> Mhm. >> Where you have a perfect balance of light. >> Mhm. >> 12-hour day, 12-hour night. >> Yes. When it gets to six, you start losing energy. In fact, you start saying, "I'm very tired.

13:54 I've had a long day. I'm tired." You're not tired because of what you did in the day. You're tired because your source of energy, which is the human source of energy, is moving further away into the abyss, into the west. So, so what about the people who claim to be night people whereby you're more active at night than you are during the day? >> Now, this world is a spiritual there's two again like I said the two contexts. There's the physical world and then there's the spiritual world. They are interconnected. Now everybody is a spiritual being. Some spirits are evil and some spirits are good. That is

14:40 why the same question you're asking. There are certain animals that only operate during the day. The animals of the light, the cows, the sheep, the donkeys, the um goats and the rest. Then there is the animals of the night. When the when the night when the sun goes in the evening, all these animals of the day are taken and locked safely and guarded, then there's a new string, a new team of animals that come out with a very different concave eyes. The leopards, when you want to dazzle a leopard, what do you do to it? You light a torch at night and put it down. It will spend its entire time looking at the torch until the battery dies. It

15:28 cannot handle light the hyena. So the animals of the day are different spiritual bear a different spiritual context from the animals of the day and so do human beings too. >> Okay. So >> so those human beings who you find them very active at night you can always relate them from that spiritual context. >> So uh if you have a friend out there who claims to be active at night those are hyenas. Uh philosophically >> he's an animal of the night. >> Okay. >> Yes. Philosophically, he's an animal of the night. >> Okay. [laughter] >> I don't want to call them hyenas. >> Philosophically. Yeah. >> Uh, they they see the animals of the night are animals of prey. >> That is why it is at night that thieves

16:13 are on the prawl, that prostitution is rampant, that uh and there are not very many people at that night. The people who hang around most people are asleep but there's a special breed of people who specifically feel energized at night >> because they are driven by a different context of light. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> S. So let's come back. Um I believe you've have you've had um a stint with governance. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes I did. >> A stint with governance. In fact um you leave the country in 2009. >> Yes. So I went into exile in 2009. >> Yes. >> At that time I was an analyst with the citizen TV. >> Uh I used to do the breakfast show

16:59 >> with Jimmy Gatu and Mutin Jawu >> and Kobe Kihara. >> Yeah. >> And I also used to sit on the I was a panelist on the uh what was his name? Uh Luoteno. >> Mhm. >> And um at one time I made a statement. >> Mhm. I think [snorts] uh that must have acted certain powers and uh I was uh there was an attempt to abduct me >> outside Kenya outside uh uh electricity house opposite air India and uh was still is I identified

17:48 one of the abductors >> like you identified you knew the person. >> I knew him and uh I actually told him and uh that complicated a lot. >> The person is still in the corridors of politics. The person you >> No, the person the No, the person I think he was a policeman. The one I identified the four who came to abduct me. The guy who was driving the vehicle was uh was uh They were policemen. >> So the person you mentioned someone on TV. >> I mentioned something on TV to do with political dynasties amongst others. And uh down in Yanza I had also started a movement called 111 which is us us and

18:36 then there was gin gin gin which is them them them. Mhm. >> So it created it created a very deep fure >> in the political basis of Yanza and it was also based on identity among >> the ideology there >> the ideology was consciousness uh political consciousness and the liberation of uh um uh political liberation for our people. uh uh I felt very strongly that we needed a new direction of leadership and uh that our own community could find leadership within itself because the leadership we had >> was identified more with uh another group uh in western Kenya. H >> how how how dangerous is that conversation >> today? >> Yes, >> today it's not very dangerous

19:22 >> but it still has some elements of danger. No, the the the the people who who pushed it >> Yes. >> are not there. >> Thank you. So now for context. Yeah, >> because it seems like an interesting thread to follow. Kidogo to what happened in 2009 like is it something we can talk about? >> Yes, why not? It happened. It's real. >> What happened? What happened? What did you mention and uh how did how the the cycle the cycle of events from what you mentioned? I uh I was a panelist uh on the Louis Tino show. >> Yes. >> And I used to do the morning breakfast uh newspaper reviews. >> Yes. >> Every morning. >> Yes. >> And uh at one point I came up with a

20:10 deduction that the entire problems of this country rotated around three or four political dynasties. that these political dynasties controlled political parties and therefore controlled access to parliament and who became a parliamentarian and therefore they also controlled through the political parties people who would be appointed to high positions in government. uh that all access to the legis of government had to be through their instruments or their vehicles, their political vehicles and if anybody fell outside of them that person had no recourse. Absolutely. So you

20:57 either had to kneel >> or be certain. >> So >> yes. >> So we we go back this is uh the period between 2005 2009. >> Yes. So this is after the coalition government. >> Yes. The N coalition came in 2002. >> 2002 and then PNU and ODM as a coalition government. So this conversation comes during the PNU ODM >> that season. Yes. >> Yes. So now in 2002 we have President Kbaki >> who does not who who does not come from any of the prominent families that we know. >> Yes. >> Uh was he a dynasty himself? >> No, >> he was. Kbaki was not a dynasty and uh was not a danger to me in any way.

21:44 >> How how does he manage to become president >> yet? We had the so-called dynasties that you mentioned that control access to parliament. >> When Kbaki came in, >> Mhm. >> Kbaki came in one he had just uh Mui had proposed Uuru Kinata. >> Yes. >> As his hair. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. But at then Uhuru was completely raw and there was a rebellion I think the LDP rebellion that was led by Raila and Saittoi >> and they all moved when they moved to LDP. >> Mhm. >> And uh Kbaki came that was probably one of the

22:29 most uh mobilized elections in this country. >> Mhm. uh and Kbaki came in as an anti-force against what had been we had been with Moy for so long and people were welled up after 24 years. So, Kbaki came in as probably the most um the most balanced and the person who could who could uh balance between uh um a total revolution and status quo. Somebody who could create a balance. Mhm. >> He was acceptable across the board and he appeared harmless to everybody. >> So he was a good compromise candidate. >> Mhm. >> And he won. >> Yes. >> Uh and those that sort of defined the circumstances under which he came. So

23:16 his victory was unique in that order. >> But there was also a prime minister after the Kbaki victory who came from my homeland. Mhm. >> And uh so when you look at Kbaki being outside the traditional dynasties, you still find a prime minister who came from the traditional dynasties. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Okay. So now we we we forward to you mentioning you mentioning that uh >> there is uh uh like this was actually part of the campaign rhetoric in 2002 2022. >> Yes. uh dynasty versus hustlers. >> Was that an accurate representation of what actually happens?

24:01 >> Uh for for Okay, I think one thing you probably maybe need to get also clar clarity upon. >> Yes. >> Elections are normally worn on against what you'd call a polarization of some sort. >> Mhm. >> You must create what you would call a referendum within an election. One of the big to give you an example in the last election one of the key defining issues was whether to legalize or maintain status quo against cannabis. That is why Raa was no one can stop Ree Canabis constituency. >> Mhm. >> Colono was buffalo soldier canabi's

24:48 constituency. Wajaka was bangi bangi bangi same constituency same constituency but to many people it did not appear to be the key thing that was driving the election but why because that constituency was considered to have between 7 to 8 million people >> mm >> yes so the normally to win an election there must be that polarization that is created uh now You can choose to have a very base one like an ethnic contest this time or L and who that has been there. We've seen it very B. But you can choose to polarize people on a good idea that

25:35 actually spurs the nation forward. So that is what happened now during that election of dynasties versus hustlers. Yes, it was dynasty. The hustlers was supposed to represent everybody else who did not come from the dynastic uh lineages. >> So you mentioning the dynastic lineages >> was a threat because Kenyans were not awake to that information or it's just dangerous because that's how things are. >> Probably both. um both uh at that time people were not very aware of the dynasties and the impact they had had and the control the level of control and influence that they had maintained >> in the country. >> Mhm. >> Slowly it began to unravel when you find

26:21 that the richest are from the dynasties. The political parties are controlled by the dynasties. The dynasties have banks. The the dynasties have huge business interests. The dynasties have large land holdings. The dynasties just control the entire economy. >> Paint for us a picture of what you saw for you to bring this conversation up. I I understand that you've given nuggets of that like the triggers that made you uh feel that that's a conversation that was important to have then. Um my background is not of opulence. >> I am the son of a nurse.

27:09 Both my parents were civil servants, hardworking civil servants. Um the greatest accolade that came to my home beyond my probably my grandparents was that my father had national renown having been uh the captain of the national team Harambe stars in the 60s and being captain of Lu Football Club that probably gave me some social uh uh identity but in terms of uh opulence and uh the legis that went with the dynasties with very little work. You see what that sort of divide came about was

27:56 there is a fraternity a group of people who work so hard every day in this country very hard but they earn very little. Then there's another small group of people who are very big with very little effort. Basically beyond moving papers, tenders and networks, you don't find much intellectual input. You don't find much labor. And I thought that the nation needs a more balanced society where the we would bridge first of all bring out the discrepancy between these two segments of society and then also once bringing consciousness to it then find a way to bridge that gap where

28:41 we could have a more balanced society. I mean it does not make sense some of the institutions that we have where the MD earns 5 million and somebody earns 25,000 doesn't make it's it's a complete colonial mindset that we needed that I felt we needed and I still feel we do need to move away from so that the even if there are hierarchies of whatever nature I mean we can't all be footballers we can't all be rugby players we all have or inherent skills but the our earnings must be based on form of fairness. The current structures of earnings that we have were constructed by the colonials for the

29:27 colonial leadership and then the little ones that we enjoy were constructed by the colonials for the colonized. That's why some people earn very little and some people earn I mean incredible amounts of money. And uh if for example somebody walked in today and uh set up his own business or went and did his athletics or football and earned his money, what problem do you have with him earning whatever he wants? But if it is public money that derives from the public, there must be a fairer system of renumeration. The gaps must be closer.

30:12 is public. >> Mhm. >> Yes. It involves collective monies. It involves communial monies. It involves people's monies. You I see no reason why an AMD in a paristle should earn 20 million or 5 million or 8 million plus benefits 50 million and the there are clerks there who also have children who need a proper education. We are not trying the the the the structures must not be seen to be trying to maintain the gap between the halves and the have nots. >> We need to bridge it. >> I am with you on that. But the people the proponents of uh the payments for people who work for government on certain positions match that salary with

30:57 their counterparts in the private sector. >> They match that salary with the counterparts the private sector. But these are completely different private se I'll give you an example. There's one bank I think where the boss must be earning close to 20 million or something. >> Yes. So I had Yes. >> If you want to earn 20 million, it is also good that you can also set up your own bank. >> Uh the conversation always plays around uh for you to manage assets worth billions, hundreds of billions. Yes, it's only fair that your ideas are commensulate to the the value you bring in terms of profit and bonuses, right? I'm with you on on uh to the level that >> the gap needs to be closed, >> right? >> But how do we close the gap

31:45 >> like like for example, if you and I are working on something? >> Yes. >> How can you win >> without it being taken from me? >> Yes. >> Yes. Exactly. What I'm saying is that as much as the leadership >> Yes. will definitely get a more advantaged package. >> Mhm. >> That package must be the people the bottom actually that the the the the equality of a society is normally known by how it treats the weak, the disadvantaged and the poor. >> Is the person is the CEO earning 20 million? >> Yeah. Is the 20 million taken from the person below or capitalistic uh institution are such that by design the

32:31 person who does something else need to be paid less to justify their >> I don't know whether subservience they their acceptance of the level they are at or the motivation for them to be where they are at. Um an economist uh Adam Smith >> claims he has a submission >> that um everyone hopes they can get more money >> so that and and when they get more money what they do is they employ more people. >> Most people don't use that money for themselves even though they do not re remunerate properly. When you when let's say for example if you have access to 20

33:16 million yourself. >> Yes. >> Chances are you may not eat the 20 million by yourself. >> You will spread it. You will increase your your convenience. You buy more convenience. >> You'll get yourself a few drivers, a few cars, a few house workers. You understand? Like there's some sort of a pyramid. So to some extent the figure is subjective and egoistic to some extent. But one way or another, save for pointless holders who just keep money for keeping money, it still circulates. I still also recognize your submission that it's a system that was created. But I fail to understand whether the money that is paid to the CEO has been taken >> from the other guy. >> What I am saying is that there needs to

34:01 be a direct relation between the money earned at the highest and at the lowest. If the institution is well paying, pay everybody very well and manage that gap. >> But what do I realize is the bigger problem >> now with hindsight? It is the education system that is faulty. Okay, >> we have an education system that is so polarizing and that focuses its entire pinnacles on the ability to consume processed knowledge. >> The ability to consume >> processed knowledge. >> What does that mean? >> Means that you go to school and you are

34:47 simply fed with knowledge. You read and you're able to >> absorb >> absorb this knowledge. Then your absorption level is tested. Then you pass then you're done. >> You are tested on absorption of the knowledge not your application. >> Thank you. Absorption. Now what I have been proposing is that we therefore need to change the focus of our education system from focus on processed knowledge to focus on knowledge production. In other words, you change the whole one of the first questions you must answer is why do you

35:33 go to school? In my in my answer it is you go to school to consume processed knowledge in order to produce new knowledge of your own. You must produce. If you cannot produce knowledge then you have no business running even a paretal or an institution because you're a consumer. That is why you find the orientation of the education system is so important to the practicality and realities of life that if you give a consumer an institution they will eat it. That's why all paretals are breaking. But look at the level of qualifications and certificates that go with those institutions. But they're all failing. >> Mhm. But if for example

36:19 I find Yanking ori who can make or who [snorts] can generate energy from the air, he's a creative. If I take that idea of his and I go and copyright it and he gets a patent for it and the patent is probably valued at $200 million. If kingi decides and there could be many kingis each with their own or for example if in your local primary school or in Mumbai primary school in Mombasa I am getting 10 patents per year worth 200 million each how much would the teachers value be if they only given 10% of these

37:05 $200 million in terms of value they would be worth $20 million each based on each patent. In other words, if we go the way of intellectual property as opposed to university degrees, Kenya will proceed. You see, one of the things that you find is that the group of academicians who cry the most. I can't get a job. I need a job. Who even carry banners are from which segment? >> The graduates. >> Thank you very much. >> Yes. >> Do you see diploma holders going to the streets? >> No. crying because of the sense of entitlement. >> Then you ask what are you bringing to the table? I'm bringing to the table a paper. So I give you an institution to run.

37:50 I give you Kenya Farmers Association. You become the MD based on your papers. How many have survived? >> How many have survived? >> Mhm. >> But if I gave King or who is able to create and I tell Kingi, this is the institution I want you to look at. Mhm. >> I have seen what you have done in these two fields. You have created this and this. Can you come up with something unique for this institution that will make it run relevant? I'm sure Kingi will do something because Kingi is oriented towards generation >> towards generation. That is his orientation. so that you can by the end of your tenure say that one this institution has produced this number of

38:36 patents. That was one reason. Number two, if we start focusing on patents, the skills, the ability to generate is not restricted to primary, secondary or universities. Anybody, everybody has it. So if I tell all the primary schools, all the secondary schools and all the universities in universities in the country that from each we just expect 20 patents per year, what would be the value of our education system? >> Which begs the question, you you make a very solid submission, solid submission. >> Yes. uh we have something in high schools called the science congress where people come to present ideas and I believe if statistically we are to go with empowerment >> yes

39:21 >> I I would like to see what becomes of these ideas >> that are presented in science congress whether it is they die at the table of presentation >> or there's deliberate effort to stifle them >> uh because um I believe We've had an episode had so many conversations this very recent whereby a guest told us that uh uh in Kenya >> people are trained in school uh I think it's either an upcoming episode or even we've aired it people are trained in school whereby foreign governments >> sponsor >> uh studies in local universities >> but the even if a student in Kenya made

40:08 a groundbreaking discovery. >> Yeah. >> It cannot be >> attributed to him >> or implemented in Kenya. >> Yes. Yes. That is true. >> So because you would say if we have science congress and nothing much comes of it over the years in terms of ideas that are applied nationally, you would say on one side do we have a shortage of ideas in terms of the capacity of creativity is an illusion. Yes. Right. >> Or >> there's a deliberate effort to stifle good ideas. >> No, it's the system. The system was a colonial system that was brought here to create people who would help the colonialist manage his plantations, his businesses, his enterprise.

40:54 >> That is why it was put in place. Yes, >> but I have had the opportunity of traveling >> across quite a number of nations in Africa >> uh for seminars, trainings, presentations, very many. And believe me, you the Kenyan mind is respected and very highly rated. Now when you're creating an education system, you must also try and understand the population for which you're creating. Kenyans have a very high intellect. You cannot limit limit the Kenyan mind to consumption of knowledge. Actually the education system is stiffling the growth of the nation. You tell Kenyans today

41:41 that I want patents and copyrights in schools and everywhere. Bring it. There will be uh a partnership, a government and citizens partnership where with your Kingi has come up with uh a hub that is able to clear skin diseases overnight, register it at your primary school, get the copyright value. When the value comes, the primary school has a percentage, the locality has a percentage, everybody goes home happy. But the current education system, the school within your village is actually also a consumer. What from the school goes back to the village directly to the community. You're eating the money of the community

42:28 through school fees, high school fees, through uniforms, through food, everything is going into the institution. But what is coming up? What is coming out? >> Mhm. Mhm. Now we want a system where you can change that primary school in your village to be the primary industry of that village. If we have 10 bright students who can give us 10 patents in 5 years, how much money will that school be valued at? The school will start doing roads. We'll improve roads. We'll improve lighting and energy systems. The school will do everything for the locality. So the school is must be the first point of production in our communities. >> That is number one. The school is not

43:16 about the children who go to school. It is about the grandfather. It's about the community. I am 45 years old. I am a shepherd and I have come up with an ingenious method of creating something and it's working. The whole village uses it. I just walk to the school. I should be able to have a structured system where I walk to the school and each school must have a copyright desk, patents and copyright desk where you walk in, register your idea. After registering your idea, it is processed and packaged for you and then it is put up for value and partnerships. The nations the the the nations we

44:02 consider the superpowers of the world have one distinction. They stand very high up in the IP index of the world. America, China, Japan, Switzerland, uh Korea, what's their big thing? Intellectual properties. And I can assure you having traveled quite a bit and interacted with people from many nations our Kenyans do. For example, would you know that uh crowdsourcing software for elections across many countries were designed in Kenya? >> Yes. >> Mhm. Kenyans particularly in software Kenyans are very respected globally and basically at performance level

44:48 management performance level intellectual performance level the Kenyan mind stands out then you come to our country and you find that the system of education is consumption you're not challenging the mind >> you are not challenging the mind because if you have 1,000 students in an institution how much capacity do you have in that institution how many brains do you have even if 10% of them could produce legit problem solving uh solutions ideas that's all you need they don't have to the whole school doesn't the rest of the school you can leave them with consumption they can get as many papers as they want he can call himself doctor Mr. professor uh JVC

45:33 uh AM FM okay >> yes >> but give space for this knowledge producer give him space he's the one who transforms society >> he's the child who who is able to look at a computer and become a master of that machine without going through any college >> where do you place him >> I saw a very uh interesting video >> yes it It was passed around as a joke. >> Yes. >> Of four year olds. Yes. >> In China working machines doing soldering wires. >> And it they were actually four year olds. >> Yes. >> And then they split the video. >> Yes. >> Into what happens in Africa. >> Yes. >> 20 year olds university graduates working. >> Yes. >> And it was a stark contrast.

46:20 >> Yeah. How much time [snorts] has been lost between these ages? A friend of mine asked me two days ago that you the first 15 years of our education by the time you're leaving school you have functionally still completely incompetent. You can't produce anything and you've been in school for 15 years. >> The first 15 years >> because you go to school say at the age of seven. >> Yes. >> So 15 years in school you're 21. >> Yes. Now if you're told beyond what you have consumed >> what else do you put on the table? >> So this that's a very that's a solid question. Uh >> we this thread starts from uh dynasties.

47:05 >> Yes. >> How were these dynasties created? >> I think dynasties is a very old the original dynasties of the okay in Kenya. >> Okay. Giving a background in societies they are normally what you would call certain families that dominate mainstream inter relation with light. Normally in the case of uh most of our leaders it's interaction with light or education that's where they started with they were pioneers >> many of them were pioneers who pursued pioneers in pursuing leadership. >> Pioneers in pursuing leadership. Kinata came at the crux of independence. Oinga

47:50 Moy Kadu that gave them leverage. >> They were born at the right time and the right setting. >> Yes. So that happens and many of them eventually uh consolidate and take very deep root in society. Hence you find the house of Windsor. You find that very they're all called houses. houses because therefore they are structures. >> Though the original lineages that are biblical were based on purely one thing, intellect. Intellect. That is why it is said in the Holy Bible that the Messiah shall come from a lineage of scribes, writers.

48:36 >> Mhm. Now I must distinguish this people who can cons when you graduate at university you have been given the power to read and to write. >> Mhm. >> But nearly everybody reads. How many people write? How many people have written books? >> Oh, that's the kind of writing you're talking about. >> Yes. >> Not writing your name. >> Yes. Not writing a story of Michael met Jane behind the fence and they talked and then Jim threw a stone. No, not story books. >> So what you're saying is by by virtue of being called a graduate, you should be able to write a book >> to produce knowledge. You're ripe. You have consumed. >> In fact, to produce knowledge in the

49:23 field. >> Yes. That you specialize in. If you cannot then let us just say there is the substance and there is the sheen. So you may dwell more on the sheen than the substance. You must produce knowledge. You must write. You must write. Everybody can read. For example, if I became president today, >> Mhm. >> one of the first things I would change, if you want to apply for any paracetal job, you must be able to write some four pages of what you intend to do. Write it and don't don't write it through your assistant. >> Don't write it through your assistant.

50:09 The interview would just be simple because by the time you're being shortlisted for an interview, we are satisfied that you have some fair level of capacity. So bring them into a hall. No computer uh no computer connectivity. I just give them machine. Write uh 2,000word article I'm giving you from 9 to 11 about what you would like to do for Kenya pipeline. Write it. Believe me, what you will get is nonsense. You will get poor addiction. You will get poor comprehension. You will get you will get just a mission mash. Diction is diction a measure of intelligence. >> No, no, no. But the the way you are able to to to present yourself is proof that

50:54 you're clearly thinking. The way you're able to connect words means that you have mastery of communication. The way you're able to communicate writing and speech means you know what you're talking about. if you can't write. And the key thing about those positions is that the role they do is they're involved in specialized writing. Everybody who is at management level is involved in one thing majorly. Specialized writing >> which they don't do. It's done by their assistant. >> Yes. You are doing reports, you are doing uh working papers, you are doing uh proposals, you it's it's specialized writing >> which makes you expose a very fundamental flaw in how people get those

51:40 jobs. Kenyans have accepted that paratal jobs are political appointments and rewards to failed politicians for the most part. >> Yes. >> Ask them to write. >> What does that cost us? Uh you see this it people have always assumed that because I have come in with a certain level of papers I am competent. No, no. I am telling you today if you subjected the CEOs and the top executives of our paristatals and even in government, many of them just asked them to write a one-page working or two or a four-page working paper or a concept note on what they want to do something some

52:25 specialized form of writing. You will see the mess we are in. They can't write. They can read. >> What's the relationship between writing and competence? >> Writing and competence. When somebody understands a subject, they're able to write about it. You must understand your subject. And if you're able to understand your subject, you can write about it. >> You can write, you can summarize it even to 700 words, which is the standard. >> Mhm. for even a newspaper article. How many senior government or senior paracetal officials do you see writing in the newspapers? Very few. Very few. >> They can't. Many of them cannot. And the job that

53:12 they doing is not just decision making. It is specialized writing. You remember the story that we had at KBC where a CEO of an institution signed a letter without checking whether it was in dollars or Kenya shillings and it brought a problem. >> I don't remember that story. >> Last year I think a a CEO was fired because the letter that was written was not checked properly. There was no uh edit there was no editing of the letter and he committed the institution through an error by writing some a great number of dollars as shillings or one of he he made that mistake of confusing the two. It means he didn't read he didn't read the written word the written word is the

53:58 key to the future. When we talk about civilization >> Mhm. We are oriented towards the west yet we are in the east because all our libraries are full of books from the west. We can't even fill a library with our books and yet we have about 40. How many universities do we have in the country? We can't fill our universities sorry our libraries with written material or let me put it this way if kingi came here today and told me I am a very well- read man the first question I will asking by the time he finishes that statement kingori who has read you

54:46 [snorts] yes you have read everybody's everything and I appreciate thank you very much for your competence in consumption But now let's look at the production. Yes, >> Kingi. Have you written a children's story book? >> Have you written tales of my land? Just stories that we pick from the the villages >> the the hair versus the hyena. Have you written anything? Why am I saying writing is important? When you live, you accumulate wealth and knowledge and a lot of things we don't need. When you die, all these things are transferred to your hairs. There's only one thing that doesn't

55:32 change name. Land will go to your the ones who are living, houses, cars, everything. But a book that you write will carry your name eternally. It is for that reason that we still talk about Moses, Solomon, David, Enoch because they wrote. In other words, philosophically again, if you want eternal life, right? >> Have you written um a a book >> uh that has L stories but told in English? I have written a book in English that explains

56:17 luo and universal history. >> You have not done l folk folk stories. >> No, no, no, no. There's those who write folk. I don't write folk stories. >> Okay. >> No. >> Okay, understood. There's something you mentioned. >> And why I mention why I do that >> is because English is actually a byproduct of the Language. >> You mentioned that. Now when I say in luo >> it means to res to to save. Then the lua say oh >> same meaning then when I get to the west it is rescue >> you have very many examples of that. Yes. >> H >> but I'm I'm I'm it's a very interesting

57:03 thread to follow but I'm very curious because what we are following >> carries a very interesting theory of poverty. >> Yeah. >> We and we I feel like we are we are coming so close to it. >> Yeah. Uh we start from um this thread starts from uh you leaving Kenya in 2009 dynasty >> and we were heading towards how that system of a few people controlling wealth cripples the meaning >> right we were establishing that >> so you gave a very good example first move advantage people born at the right time in fact's qualification for office >> was as simple as He couldn't speak English. >> Period. The word again.

57:49 >> He could just speak English. >> Yeah. If you could speak English, you are considered a you are considered cultured. You are considered conscious. And if you spoke vernacular, you are considered closed. In school, I don't know about your time. When we were kids in most of the schools, anybody who was caught speaking vernacular would be caned and you would wear something on your neck that I will not speak vernacular. Vernacular was condemned. It was backwardness. If you couldn't if you could speak if you couldn't speak in English, you are undereducated. You are useless. Now, what does that do when you come and tell people that that English you're actually speaking is a byproduct of local Lu and Luya languages?

58:35 It completely demystifies the potency or the supposed potency that intellectual potency that was related in English. If all the thought processes and all the the roots of the language are African and local. >> Mhm. >> What does that say about our languages? It actually says that we need to have a new segment within the structure of national languages, official languages. We need a third tire. >> Uh which which also begs the question. Yeah. >> I I agree with you on some of the points you've made in terms of ideas that could change the fortunes >> of >> the common man. >> Yes. So for the people who for someone who's watching this and they've gone

59:20 through university, they've graduated and they don't have a job, >> how would they reset? >> How would they reset? >> Yes. >> Uh you have to reorient yourself. You have to learn to build from zero. We've seen people build many and not I mean and I'm saying not not all not all of them are closed. There are many people who simply leave go and start an industry from zero. But the only problem with the orientation is that you expect to start at the top. I I I I had an an issue with paracetal the other day. I had walked in and told the guy that hey I have this uh electricity bill that is very huge and he summarized it for me as the boss and

1:00:07 I paid. Then later on I was given a very big bill again which he had not indicated. So when I started putting pressure on him he says you know I don't deal with that directly that's dealt with by my juniors >> because in his mind being a regional boss he's supposed to delegate such deals. He maybe wants to deal with corporate. So it's in the mind. Once you are through with school, the first thing you should be asking yourself is what can I produce? Not where can I get a job. What that thing you produce is what will earn you what you want? I have to innovate. I have to think beyond the box. I have to come out with something that I can

1:00:53 put on the table. I cannot make consumption my lifelong experience and I wallow in it until I die. Even if I wallow in comfort, I must produce something. >> Does the economy with the structures that exist support innovation? >> There are no structures now. They're being built slowly. You must give credit. We are slowly realizing that there is we need to create more space for research and for innovation. But the education system as we know it has no space for innovators. They are condemned. >> Even the CBC the new >> the CBC is very poorly structured. >> How so? >> The CBC has no one even when you look at the sequencing of the timing there has to be logic to the times whether it's

1:01:38 732 844. What does the 8 mean? Why eight? Why four? What is the orientation of CBC? What is the philosophy behind CBC? Where competence? >> Yes. >> Now if it is competence tell me so far in fact we will judge it when it starts producing but CBC is an education system. >> Mhm. >> What we're looking for is a knowledge system that is comprehensive. >> Mhm. >> We are looking for a knowledge system. CBC if you today are able to make a radio from plants how does CBC reward you? What does it call you? What title does it give you? What grade does it give you? If I am able to get

1:02:26 fix an engine that can run on wind >> from Nakuru Olympic Primary, what does CBC give me? How does CBC recognize me? There needs to be a clear path for the innovators within the academic system that this is the path they follow. Which makes us go back. We also have to review in to get to this skills-based generation what we today have called polytechnics doesn't make sense. We need to go back to we need to start from monotechnics not polytechnics specialization. This is electronics. Cabeta technical institute is purely for electronics. a monotechnic where everything is supposed to be focused on

1:03:13 electronics and what you're looking for is intellectual properties. You're looking for producers. The consumers are there. They will go and many of them can be there. They can be masters. But you're looking for just five or six people who can create something new. >> Then I go to Sigalagala Technical. Sigala Technical be another monotechnic. For them, they're just dealing with hubs. Herbs. Anybody who has a speciality, you know that leaf can treat malaria, come you know that leaf can treat this. It's just for hubs. So the people who meet their herbalists, monotechnics. >> Okay. >> Then you go to which other polytechnic do we have? Another poly techchnic. >> Now there they just dealing with soils.

1:04:00 Do you want somebody who can there's people who are masters at mining? How they know where there's gold, silver? You don't know. So we have to have monotechnics as opposed to polytechnics. Polytechnics are genericiz social sciences palace jaga. A huh monotechnics specialization highly skilled individuals and remember that up to this time where we are speaking the biggest thing that makes Kenyans live is their innovative capacity. Kenyans innovate. We have no we now we are beginning to start getting uh natural resources gold silver there's a lot of things in the ground >> but so far we have survived with what

1:04:47 intellectual capacity only Kenyans compete for very few resources intensely that's where the competition if you go to Uganda competition is very limited here the competition is high for every space because there's no fallback position you don't earn you don't eat go to Uganda, you don't earn, but you still eat. When people work in Uganda, they work for extras, clothes, >> ornaments, phones, extras. Why? Uganda has 33% surface fresh water. So, life is relatively easier. Food grows. Uh water is everything. Kenya, we only have 11% fresh water. Only 11. And out of that, I think 4% of that 11 is located around uh the rift valley and western region, the lake basin region,

1:05:34 which has 59% of Kenya's surface renewable fresh water. 59 out of the five water basins, that one has 59%. So these things count. But we must the biggest strength we have based on our circumstances is this. So we must find a way to channel the intellectual capacities of Kenyans towards productivity. Kenyans produce my brother. >> Okay, >> look at papers that the other day you saw this documentary that was done by a professor in at uh Oxford University about Kenyans who specialized in writing thesis for international students across the world. I mean that in itself though it is reverse

1:06:20 it denotes the level they able to write thesis for any cause you want name the subject they'll write it for you and people pass exams based on that so you can't subject the Kenyan mind to the ordinary ken of consuming knowledge and reproducing consuming knowledge uh focus him on productivity for example in your local primary school. If I told if the headmaster if I I would instruct the headmasters and the education system every time people are going home I want each and every student to come back with either an article a 700word article or if you're an artist a piece of art that

1:07:06 you have drawn over the holiday by the time these kids come back from school I as the art teacher will collect all the art papers I will put them together, edit and I will produce Machako's high school students 2026 works of art we will sell. We already producing the ones who write articles we will come and develop a book where I would say memories of our time give it a title uh Kathy boys high school 2027. So by the time you're actually leaving school, you have a reference points to something you have produced. If you have students who are good with mathematics, you just

1:07:52 find the different subjects to put and tell them at the end of the term when you're coming back, I only want this article. You will be producing books. Every year the university or the the school is already churning out books. These books can be sold to the locality. When visitors come from where do you think we are given a lot of donations British council we have given 5,000 books to primary school somewhere they're simply re reinforcing their cultural dominance over you. >> Mhm. >> We must now start getting our counties to promote production of writing of books and publication >> so that when visitors come we are the ones who are now taking books to

1:08:37 American schools, British schools, Australian schools. We are donating our books, works from students, Kenya students 2024. This is the mass of what we did. We are now changing the cause. We are filling our libraries where I have a reference point when uh uh Dr. Kingi was at uh Alliance High School. What can I refer him to? What can I what reference can I make of him beyond being number two, number three, and number four? Go to the library. You will find a book that was published with King's articles. I will read when King is in public service. I will read and ask wow this were these were your thoughts then. So this thing needs a seamless continuity but you must produce. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Understood.

1:09:23 >> Uh uh I read somewhere >> Mhm. >> that a teacher was struggling. Um there's a book they used to teach students in terms of the evolution of cognitive abilities. Yes. from the impact of technology, mobile phones, short text and stuff >> and uh the story was the teacher had taught in a school for a very long time. >> Yeah. >> And uh over a period she noticed a transition whereby students used to be very excited about the reading the story. >> Yes. >> And then at some point they were struggling to even do a page. >> Yes. And this was attributed to uh the exposure to short messages, texts, phones and stuff. It was affecting their

1:10:09 reading capabilities. >> Don't you think I agree with you and I when you make your submission I I get a picture of how much we missed >> from school, how much we would have converted from our time in school, right? Uh so now when you look at technology it makes it even harder in terms of access. People have bought children phones from as young as kindergarten. They have mobile phones. >> When you look at text in a book >> versus the colorful screens >> there's a very big mismatch >> like your brain moving from this to this. >> I also struggle and I have to read. Yes. >> Right. >> Yes. Uh I I have my friends Nura Bookstore. They're doing a very

1:10:55 >> They also sell for me. Yeah. >> Yes. They do a wonderful job to promote local authors. The numbers they give me of readership in Kenya >> is discouraging. >> You're right. >> You understand? Silas Silasan and Jacob are my friends. They've been here. >> They told me that in Kenya if you sell 3,000 books you in the best sellers list. Kenyans do not buy books written by Kenyans. >> They don't know what they're missing. >> Kenyans buy foreign books. I have tried to talk to vendors on the streets to sell some of my books. >> The message was one Kenyans don't read books by Kenyans. Kenyans read books by

1:11:40 foreign authors. Uh and I think it's also this the same same colonial mentality that afflicts us. >> Mhm. that you believe that from your locality nothing good can come. Whatever is good must come from the west. >> For us to move forward, we must look to the west without realizing that the east is the point of sunrise. Where we are is the point of sunrise. Now we are so used to receiving knowledge and information from the west to a point where we have disregarded local. We don't even think about local. We don't think about production of knowledge. We just think about looking to the west. give us something >> and I understand that before you read you can't know I also had the same vibe until I got to Nura I got introduced to the works of Jacob Silasani and one of

1:12:33 >> who's been a guest on our show >> Kirukimu who was a recent guest these people write >> my my for example in my book >> yes >> the biggest buyer has been the American embassy Blue, great light of nations, the 1,000page book I wrote. The people who bought the most copies are >> the American embassy >> and other foreigners. >> Yes. >> Locals don't buy very few >> and that's where they can consume knowledge that they can relate with. >> Yes. >> Locally. >> And and then there's one element you just brought the issue of technology. >> Yes. Yes. That was >> one of the big see many people have not clearly studied the impact of the computer age on education. You see, before the explosion of the computer network,

1:13:19 all knowledge was restricted to to two places. The libraries and academic institutions. If I wanted to read, I had to go to the the national library to scram for books and look for them or I had to go to somebody who had access to other books in an institution. But the advent of the computer network completely liberalized knowledge. Knowledge was now readily available. I go to the net. Anything I want I can get. Anything it so it completely diluted the the the it opened up that that rigid uh path that was restricted primary to secondary

1:14:07 to university. It closed it down completely. Now I can access knowledge from anywhere. Long time for you to get any specialized knowledge you had to get very special people. But these days people are using the internet to create more knowledge. Then the biggest impact now the one that is the latest is the AI generation. It writes for you. All you have to do is tell it. It draws for you. It it does everything. Now that the impact of the AI means that we must transform our education system completely. It must be revolutionized. We can no longer focus on in fact it reiterates my position that we can no longer focus on knowledge consumption but on knowledge creation because this enables it. So all you are because it brings you all the information instant.

1:14:56 You ask it give me 1,000 words or 1,000 references on this. It gives you long time. How long would it take you to just to get a reference? You have to >> Is that a good thing or a bad thing? >> It is a I think the the issue about uh progress is speed. If the education system is faster, then it means the delivery must be faster then it means the road and the road networks and the transport systems must be faster. Everything must be faster. >> So, >> because it's like a h what do you call it? This uh wind system. there's an assistance. So the biggest thing that we have is speed. >> Then how does that affect writing now? Because if you can't read, you can't write. And I've already established and I'm convinced by that theory that when

1:15:42 you the screen reduces your cognitive abilities to read written material. >> Yes. I think one of the biggest things is that at the when the computer age came we we also shifted away from the black and white to the colored >> where reality was now being relayed through many mediums. >> The phone is relaying you a colorful reality. >> The TVs >> which used to be limited to maybe 10 hours a day now is round the clock and it's colored full color instant information. >> Mhm. So once the speed sorry once the reality now became visual many people stopped laboring in terms of writing which again is not bad. Why for you to produce knowledge you cannot for example

1:16:29 I cannot sit in a seminar eat the whole day and you expect me to produce. No you cannot produce when you are very fat and very full. >> You need to tie your belt. You need to move to retreat from society. Deny yourself when you want deep knowledge and stay there for even four months. Writing without much contact. You cannot you cannot concentrate when you're overfed, when you're drinking too much, when you're socializing too much. No, good writing and deep writing needs sacrifice >> and alienation. If people consume knowledge from the phones and in the computer >> what the people you're writing for now that means the packaging I will write my material I can decide to write because

1:17:15 one of the things that moving forward you're going to find is that uh Kingi has published a book but he writes AI edited then guada does his book he writes no AI editorial it's just my work. It's going to be the same thing we have had with >> Ki Nabro. >> Yes, that's what's coming. >> So, we're going to have two menus >> of academia here. >> So, there will be value in deep work. >> There will be value in deep work. That's what it will do. And it is it will be handwritten hand not not AIdriven. That is going to be a big distinction moving forward because you'll p I can publish 10 books with AI by next week. But then

1:18:01 again the problem is if someone draws value from the content they found from AI what is it from this deep work that will be different from AI which AI will be sourcing deep work of >> AI also has limitations AI does not know many things there's many things you can tell AI to do it can give you a structure but the real the real the the the core of the work the path of your work is your AI AI is also a machine knowledge consumer. It consumes but it brings only it only brings out what it has consumed. >> And is this for let me give you an example please. Uh let me lay a scenario

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