Full transcript of “Doctor Who 50th Anniversary Trilogy feat. Eddie Robson, Jonathan Morris and John Dorney”. Click a timestamp to open the video at that moment. Need another video? Use the YouTube transcript generator.
0:00 hello this is Sean Carson and you're listening to the Sirens of audio please leave a review for us on Apple podcasts and please like share subscribe and comment on our YouTube videos then you shall be like [Music] us [Music]
0:55 good day audio files this is the SS of audio the show that explores the universe of Doctor Who in the audio medium I'm Dwayne and I'm philli good day Dwayne good day audio files how's things with you Philip things are great thank you that is great to hear today is a great episode because we are still in the 60th anniversary season of our podcast and we are today focusing on three stories that were released in the 50th anniversary year by big finish there was a Trilogy of stories interesting how they do these stories uh trilogies big finished they did the villains Trilogy for the 40th now in this one they've done the 1963 Trilogy uh which preceded light at the end I don't think well none of them
1:41 are directly related to toig trilogies were big at this time for a couple of reasons because we we sort of moved into the trilogy season where each doctor would get three in a row because it's they sort of built up and also because it's 12 months in a year threes work really well well there you go and there's an explanation for everything isn't there there is so as a special treat for this episode we have got not one not two but three guests and that is the writers of each one of these stories for the first time we're going to be speaking with Eddie Robson which is very exciting he's going to be talking about Fanfare for the common men Jonathan Morris is going to be talking about the space race it's a sixth doctor in Perry story and the Seventh Doctor Ace and countermeasures team story is called ass the
2:26 assassination games that was written by John DOR and we'll be chatting with him about that too all that's to look forward to but before we do that philli do you know what no what DNE oh you do so we have to jump down the rabbit hole let's [Applause] [Music] go again but okay we're here no we're not up it's like let's go come on let's go so we're here thank you for for joining me and here's a question for you 1963 was an eventful year not just for the fact that Doctor Who started in 1963 there was another huge event uh that year uh well there was a few different
3:13 events wasn't there there was the JFK assassination was that the the year the bay Pigs invasion happened Cuba was Cuba the year before was that the year before it was long before I was born Dwayne but okay there certainly a lot of happening in Kennedy's Reign well let's talk about when we were born then cuz we were both born quite a while after that so my question to you is major events sometimes they're referred to in Doctor Who is there any major event that's referred to in Doctor Who that you can recall and do you remember what you were doing at the time oh so you mean that so stories of what I was doing when stories came out yeah sort of sort of thing if you remember the event yeah yeah um
4:00 events that's I can remember places better um I mean I always talk about the fact that when the first series of pan came out I was living in Melbourne and I I remember I was you know walking the streets of Melbourne with with a dis player where you used to put the CD inside the displayer and put my headphones on and I you know I remember walking the streets of Melbourne listening to the first series of Manan story so that that's a very burnt in memory of my head and I think I think we mentioned recently with the torwood story by with Sir Michael Palin I can't think of the whole name now what's that big long name tropical beach sounds and other relaxing seascapes volume four that's it because I remember very clearly when I was listening to that one I was walking along out the M2 Motorway
4:48 down in my place because that's somewhere I was um in terms of major events oh I don't know what what do you what can you think of Dwayne well the the the one major event that happened that was referred to within Doctor Who and that I remember very well I would have been 13 12 or 13 at the time uh it was attack of the cyman because they spoke about Hal's Comet so that was a a huge event I remember my dad had bought the family a telescope we were out looking at H's comet in the telescope it was visible for I don't know how long it was but it was it was an incredible time an exciting time for me and my young teens and it was a very very memorable event that one a big that's a good one actually I hadn't thought about that um
5:33 yeah okay we um I you have you been to the Parliament House in CRA yes the old one or the new one no the new Parliament House yes I've been to both so in the new Parliament House there's a gigantic tapestry that is all woven which is representing for those people who don't live in Australia um the Parliament House is it's actually under a hill it's called Capital Hill there's a there's there's a mountain they actually removed the whole Mountain they built Parliament House and they put the mountain back on top um so you can actually walk it's all grassed you can walk all over our Parliament building just to show the fact that that the government sits under the people is what it's supposed to represent and as you walk from the front to the rear of the building each area of the parliament represent a different part of Australia so the very front of the parliament is all done is a it's a
6:19 huge abrial painting with water it's all representing the desert and the landscape the second area you moved to is the rainforest with all these marble columns um but the third SE third section is the Australian bush and there's a gigantic tapestry um which takes up the entire wall which took them about 10 years to all be sewn by hundreds of people and in that is Haley's comment hidden hidden because whenever a traditional tapestry was done back in Europe um the person who made the tapestry always puts something in it to date it and because Haley's comment was coming and Parliament was opening in 1988 which was the B Centenary of Australia um in terms of White Settlement um the the designers the designers decided to put in ha his
7:06 comments it's not part of the plan originally but it was actually sewn in later and so you can actually see Haley's comment behind all the bush bush this is a little bit fact but when you come to Australia and visit CRA look for Haley's comment in the uh in the sky it looks you never not see it now philli you would never not see it now in this tapestry it's just people don't notice and then they when they it's gets point out to them they realize oh look at that that's that's a great dating yeah take brilliant example other others how long has it how long just speaking on Parliament House for a moment how long has the new one been there because when I first visited Parliament House the new one wasn't there it was the old one I it was open in 88 for the B okay so it would have been a few years before that that I visited the old Parliament House yes yeah old old Parliament still they were going to pull down they were going
7:52 to knock down old Parliament House but in the end they've kept it it's now become a museum a museum of a democracy okay it's it's it's a really a fascinating place to go through didn't someone petrol bomb the entrance recently uh I'm sure I remember seeing a fire a fire in the entrance way recently I know someone tried to drive through um the new Parliament House at one stage they had to put up new barricades and originally they had big glass doors you could just walk straight into the building and unfortunately since 9911 and other things have happened you know have to go through the side and through security to get in it used to be every door could be thrown open you you could actually see from the outside all the way to the very back through the entire building was set to be opened up you could actually walk through see everything but you security measures
8:39 have made that impossible now but there's still a lot of you can't you can't roll down the hill anymore either which is a bit sad you can still go and stand on top of Parliament and let let the politicians know that we're in charge very good so as far as other events well not another one that has come to mind is not an event but a period in history that I lived through and that was the '70s so horror of glam rock is an interesting one because that is focusing on the music of the time and I as I uh my musical tastes developed I came to love that period of History uh period of Music uh from 67 to 77 there that's my favorite musical period of all time so
9:28 um yeah horror of glam Rock always makes me remember those days and the the costumes the Glam rockers the progue Rockers the punks there was a a really rich musical decade that one the 70s whereas you were just listening to Abba weren't you I was listening and the Beatles and queen and lots of musicals and yeah other stuff but yes and it my tastes are fairly eclectic you would have started music too and tast in musicals in the you at a young age you would have start got a taste for him uh probably and Lord Weber the First music I remember going and seeing was song and dance right by Andel Weber um but also was another music
10:14 called they're playing our song um which said s two Australian icons in Jackie Weaver and John Waters and I still really remember going and seeing that and then yeah just it kept just snowballing from there you know fans from the Opera and lay Miser and those sort of huge memo things which now now I'm much more into sonheim yeah yeah I mean I Do's always been what done with music Big Finnish have done a story that's based on my favorite genre of music which is progue Rock um but it's one of those one episode ones and I can't remember where it is off the top of my head but I must dig it out and never listen to it again cuz yeah there should be more stories based on prg Rock there's a few different musicals to choose from in big finish but only one
10:59 episode of progue rock don't say I mean there not there's still not a lot of shows set sort of in our period of History I guess it's a bit harder when people are still alive and those sort of things I mean you know doctor tradition done lots of historicals and um but more and more things are moving closer and closer it's it's a little bit off footing I'm seeing some of the stuff that's getting a bit close to time there's there's an ABC program at the moment called the newsreader which all said during the sort of late 80s and just watching the looking at the furniture and the Fashions and think oh I had that wallpaper and we oh we had that couch and there things like they just slightly off pudding um whenever you see something sort of set you it really wasn't that long ago well it wasn't but then it
11:46 was I mean I mean yeah the three stories we're going to talk about today that's 10 years and I still remember them just it feels like they just came out yesterday it certainly does doesn't it well on that note let's crawl up out of the Rabb rabbit hole and uh I'll read the blurb for the first story that we're going to talk about which is Fanfare for the common men if you remember the' 60s they say then you can't have been there the doctor remembers the' 60s that's why he's taking Nissa on a trip back to November 1963 Back to Where it All Began back to the birth of the biggest band in the history of British music back to see those cheeky Lads from Liverpool Mark James and Cori the common
12:33 men the boys who made the 60s swing with songs like oh won't you please love me just count to three and who is that man the doctor remembers the 60s and there's something very wrong with the' 60s if the Beatles no longer exist coming soon from Big finish Productions Doctor Who 1963 Fanfare for the common men ladies and gentlemen welcome the year's top pop sensation this is what I was talking about Lissa why is everyone making so much noise doctor we can't even see them yet this is what the Beatles inspired in people good grief what is it doctor it's not there who are these Beatles there
13:19 are they another group yes are they any Goods you must have heard of them nobody's as good as the common men the common men you haven't landed Us in the wrong place of you doctor no 31st of October 1963 this is definitely right something very very badly get down cheers we've been the Common Man and we continue to be so tomorrow subscribers get more at bigf finish.com so Phillip what stands out to you about this story that's is the whole trilogy it's it's an interesting Concept in terms of wanting to celebrate an anniversary and deciding well we'll go for 1963 which
14:04 when Doctor Who starts and so you know getting three very experienced writers to to pick three incidents in 1963 which were key and so the first one that Eddie's picked is in terms of you know what was big and happening in the 1960s um well the the biggest thing well aside from dark Mania um bigger than probably dark Mania was Beetle Mania um because the Beatles were just becoming bigger and bigger now not 63 they were still only just starting off um but of course soon the whole whole e was going to be totally dominated by The Beatles and so it's a natural storyline to go for is to go with the Beatles but we do know that I mean the Beatles appeared in Doctor Who in the chase um but of course when you're dealing with once again people who are still alive because you know both B
14:51 and Ringo are both still alive um you it's very hardly well where do you go and how do you take it how do you play around with those sort of things and so I think Edd's done a really clever thing in terms of let's take the beatle Mania but transcribe it to another group and of course the group is described to you people who you know know the very first episode of the unearthly child um Susan was listening on her radio um to the common Men playing a tune when I think Ian walks in on her um which of course totally fictional group but it was it's just a very funny thing to actually you know take something that happened in that very first episode and then turn into a whole story line so yeah in terms of my initial Impressions with this well I love the music this they're singing in this um so some musical tracks which you
15:38 know it's hard for big fish to do because it's so expensive and so time consuming to put down music um but they managed to get you know three actors who could all sing really well and some great tracks that were written for it and so it's by you know all throughout this is you've got bits of songs but really in the style of the Beast Beatles And so one of the great Joys he hearing you artificially created Beetle songs um just and we've just had a new Beetle song released for the first year I'm not sure what you think of the new Beetle song that's just been released um but yeah it's great having you know that sort of honor and you know picking up on the sort of strands of what the Beatles were their sounds their Vibes and to put into this group what were your industrial
16:25 Impressions no I loved it I love the Beatles and it's interesting our Rabbit Hole topic was talking about what um what kind of events are you know were brought out in Doctor Who stories that we remember you may not think at our age that the Beatles um had any events but the first big Beatles event that I recall in my lifetime was the 20th anniversary of Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band it was 1987 so that was my that would have been my third year in high school I think it was yeah yeah it was my third year in high school and um it was the first time I'd heard and their one of their later albums cuz my dad always liked the early
17:10 stuff the 1963 style poppy tunes that the Beatles did in their first few albums uh but I got a taste for sergeant peppers and and um and and really explored the Beatles later period on my own because it was something that my dad didn't like so um so so in that sense The Beatles And there's always been Beatles events hasn't there that there's you know even during our lifetime whether they were off doing solo things whether you know John was um you know he was assassinated poor M has just done a big tour of Australia and it's been huge and tens of thousands of people but I remember sleeping I slept overnight outside the Sydney entertainment center um 30 years ago to get tickets for poor
17:56 McCartney and um I was you know fourth row dead center but you know I'd slept the night with a couple of friends so we could get those seats and see poor McCartney back then and I still I'm still think I'm slightly industrially deatha from live on Let Die because they had explosions going off and fireworks and the the heat being generated by all this flame and the sound of Live and Let Die it's still one of the I just yeah I can close my eyes and see that whole song being performed it was unbelievable and paor mccy was amazing 30 years ago and I heard it was pretty good even now though I didn't go this time because yeah it wasn't I did have my fourth row seats fantastic but as far as Fanfare for the common man goes I really like the way this is a very timey wiy story um it's
18:45 we've mentioned it before that doctor who often doesn't deal with the effects of time travel at times but this story does and I I really appreciate that um there's a quirkiness in Eddie robson's writing that really appeals to me too every time I see his name I feel a sense of quirkiness that I don't get from any other writer um so he he always does something that's really interesting I find when he writes so um yeah it was good to be able to to have a chat with him about this and uh and a chat about some of his other stuff too which we'll share down the track yeah you do have to focus pretty hard on this because as you said it's Tomy Wy and not and it's more than just two times because the doctor and niss are separated for nearly the
19:30 entire story they actually have Sarah and pet have hardly any sense together they're both working with other people and moving through time in different ways it's you are constantly having to try to think oh hang on where are we now who are we with and they're fairly short Punchy scenes so you do really have to keep focusing on what's Happening next it is one that requires a lot of concentration but it really pays off and there's a you know there's a lot of Great Moments through throughout but then a really good pay off at the end as well excellent well on that note why don't we bring Eddie Robson on and have a chat to him about Fan Fair for the common men so Eddie can you tell us how you came to be commissioned for Fan Fair for the common men yeah now this was uh this this took a while actually because uh the idea was
20:17 actually suggested to me by um a writer called Dar carille who writes for TV who um is a who fan who created a show called baay which is on ITV over here um and he's also a big Beatles fan like me and he'd said why don't you pitch to Big they've never done like a Beatles Story and he thought like a good place to locate it would be uh pre fame um in when they were in Hamburg and I thought that was a good idea and I floated this with big finish and they were a bit oh maybe but they were a bit I can't remember which came first whether they kind of put it on the backb and said I maybe we'll talk about it or uh they came up with this idea it would
21:03 have been Alan Barnes who came up with this thing because he'd said we're a bit wary understandably of doing anything that intersects with uh real people who are still alive um because you know it's not that you legally can't but it could get you in hot water potentially and the other issue actually yes now this is the reason why we went pre Fame for it was that we thought well it' be a bit rubbish to do something about the Beatles and not be able to have any of the music it would be very conspicuous so if you locate it before they're famous when they're still playing cover versions then you could do um it wouldn't it wouldn't feel as as you know you still wouldn't be able to on a big finish budget do the cover versions but you could do some uh pasti obscure 50s rock and roll numbers and uh
21:51 it would sort of feel it wouldn't feel as jarring as just sort of like you know saying hey it's the Beatles and then you suddenly like don't actually have the music um and I think what those those those two things the rights issues with the music but also not wanting to um deal with real people when they're alive I think it was Allan who came up with the solution that would solve both of those which was what if it's about the Beatles being kind of time rammed out of history and that means that we don't have it's not the real people we can cut and do it in a kind of a bit a way a bit like the uh you know the film The rattles uh where it's like the rutles takes place in this kind of world because it's a parody of The Beatles it's it takes place in this world where the Beatles don't exist and instead the rutles
22:38 exist um I think that was really The Germ of it actually was was was coming up with that um and then I at the same that might have been an idea that we came up with at the time or to that the 1963 concept had come up because I think that was it I know it had been it's something that i' floated with them a while back and it' been like oh I'm not sure it's a bit difficult how can we do this and I think it was Alan came and said is there a significant thing that we could that is specifically November 1963 that we could tie this to uh the whole 1963 concept because they had the other things that were things that were going on right around the broadcast of the of the first episode and I said yes
23:24 because the um the the event that uh that been like big Beatle Mania things happening all all throughout the year really particularly over the summer but it was in November 1963 that they played uh the the Royal Command Performance and the SCS outside that I think were the first time that it was described as Beatle Mania so that was a significant event um and I said yeah we could tie it around that um and the Alam was quite happy that like as long as it kind of started there um he was happy me to go off and do do it in other ways um because I didn't I was quite Keen to not just set it around that I thought if you got this opportunity it'd be quite nice to kind of explore it in different ways um but he was happy that like yeah as long as
24:10 it starts in in November 1963 you can go off on a different tangent so where did you L The Beatles come from oh I don't know I it was It was kind of uh yeah just growing up in the 90s I I um I kind of hit I I hit 16 around the time when Brit pop was was um really big in the UK um and there and the Beatles Anthology documentary was coming out and uh yeah it was suddenly was it was very 60s music had become very fashionable and I just yeah I don't know I just i' got recently into Jimmy Hendrick through a friend and then I just started looking into you know what what else other 60s music and um I remember clearly actually I got a gift voucher for Christmas which um I'd been
24:56 given to buy a particular smashing pump pumpkins album and I went to the shop and it was out of stock and I just went oh I'll just get something else and I got Sergeant Pepper instead and so that was it really so it was just that and you know reading there was a book called revolution in the head by in McDonald which I got out of the school library because I I actually was a I was a prefect working in the school library um I could just um renew it myself uh and so I had it out on loan for like a year nobody else could read that book because I just had it the entire time and um would just yeah it's it's sort of got an entry for each song so I would you know qu I'd often kind of refer back to it so where did your um you TOS the
25:41 initial ID for what about the title of the fanf for the common me yeah that was I can't remember what we were calling it initially uh I think I did struggle a bit for a title for this one and um it wasn't until I think I think it was partway through the developing the storyline that it was early on it was just like they just there could be anyone they're just a band um we hadn't come up with the idea that it would be the common man and then I just I at one point I'd have suddenly thought like we couldn't I was struggling for a name I think for the band and for a title to the play and one that sounded right um and then I just suddenly said oh what if what if they're the common men can just give us another link into the first episode because we don't know anything about them um and yeah and everyone just
26:29 thought yeah that's great and then that was and I think the title after that came from Alan Barnes he he said why did you call it why did you call it that so yeah then you've got the links with do the Beatles appearing Doctor Who in the chase you got this backwards and forwards between the two I guess big six0 institutions yeah and we thought bit established that the that this group did exist in the Doctor Who Universe even though even when time have been put back as it as it should be uh they're still they're still there they're still part of everything so how do you go back constructing a story that is so timey wiy complex how how do you PL it out and plan it out yeah it was well the main thing I want to do with to get the most
27:14 value out of the concept I wanted to uh do the Beatles in in different time periods and I thought well I'll do an episode on each and when I broke it down I watch of them kind of quite spaced out to represent all the different fa so I did you know Beatle Mania I did um 67 psychedelic era uh I did I wanted to do the breakup and and then actually go back to the original concept which was to have Fe them in Hamburg um and that actually just fitted quite well I think in the end because um when they've when he get to the point they realize that everything's unraveled and they have to undo it at source um that was uh that was the logical thing to do was to kind of do it progressing Through Time chronologically
28:01 and then at the end they have to go back to 1960 to try and sort it out and that was another thing that worked because knowing things about uh The Beatles history um there were other groups from Liverpool who were in Hamburg at the time and so that was quite easy to make that like the Nexus point of like that's when things changed and that's when they took over because that was basically when The Beatles got good was was when they went to Hamburg they hadn't played loads of gigs before then and they were a bit Rough and Ready and um and they were not known in Liverpool as being a particularly good group at the time um in fact when uh when there was when one of the other Liverpool bands who were in Hamburg heard that the Beatles were being sent over they sent a letter over
28:47 saying don't send the Beatles it'll just like it'll just ruin the scene if you send over a rubbish group like the Beatles um and yeah but it was it was those hours of of playing in Hamburg that turned them into a really good group and then when they got back to Liverpool the the difference was huge and so that was the obvious point to to kind of to to make it work I mean I think with changing history stories there's always a question of um when history changed and and like how people notice and um I'm never sure whether that completely logically makes sense uh I think you just have to sort not worry about that too much um yeah uh like why why the doctor
29:35 Lance at this particular moment and F's history has been changed and why he's never had that happen before I don't really know I think just for the sake of the story and exploring that the kind of the alternative past uh you just have to kind of say well it just does it just it just happens for a for a show that uh you involves time travel doctor who travels a lot through time but it doesn't often play with time like uh like you have done in this story so do you find that a challenge or difficult or or is that a lot of fun for you and what about the plotting of everything you've got the historical facts but how do you how do you do you have the whole story in your head or do you have to actually write these kind of things out because it's a bit more
30:21 complicated yeah it is it is a bit more complicated I think because like yeah if you want to um yeah you do want to work the whole fun of doing an alternative history thing is to work with the original history but also change it um yeah I mean I I think I agree with you that do T has actually very rarely dealt with it it's usually just kind of time travel as a device to just get to a story and then do it um and uh it's it's interesting yeah it does kind of show that actually the mechanics of time travel are not necessarily really integral doctor um in the way they might be in other stories um I think the biggest challenge actually uh with these things is making it feel like uh something of importance
31:09 has happened afterwards because if if the doctor just goes back and just undoes it um then it can feel a bit sort of unimportant really um so I think you have to especially if like you end up with characters who don't remember it um but I think with with this one um yeah it I did sort of come with that challenge with this one because yeah they do end up going back and undoing it the source but I guess it's the the story ends up being about the doctor working out what they need to do to undo it really and uh and and also just I mean I guess what you what you end up doing is going okay so what even if um it
31:54 doesn't change things even if you just kind of reverted to the status quo what have we learned about the status quo in the process and actually that was something where I did I did kind of sit down and I was trying to work out when I when I come with the idea that someone has tried to time time Round The Beatles out of existence to kind of take advantage of the position that they had um I can't remember what exactly it was that I did there was some early development of the story and I was talking to my friend James cury Smith who's also written on Doctor Who and is a big Beatles fan about this I talked to him about what I was going to do about it and he' said um he' pointed out well there's an interpretation of that story that you've come up with which is that it didn't matter who the Beatles were
32:40 there could have been anybody but the times were right for someone like that to come in and and take that position and he he pointed out to me you don't believe that's true though do you I said no I don't actually because I think it was like a combination of a special version bunch of talents at a particular moment uh that all and the circumstances enhanced it but they couldn't have just been anybody and he said yeah right so that should be what the story is about is that someone tries to do that because they think oh it could have been anyone we just have to kind of like remove the Beatles and put some other people in their place but it's about the fact that it constantly the villain is constantly going like why isn't this working he feels it should work and it's not so it
33:27 was so even though the Beatles aren't in it it's kind of a story about them and what they were and what we kind of would have lost by having them even if we'd had something else instead what would have been lost if you hadn't had them so I guess that's that's what I was trying to kind of get out in the end with um removing them and then just undoing it again you see It's a Wonderful Life thing isn't it it's like it's it's all undone and nothing actually has changed after George Bailey comes back but he has a different perspective on his life having come back I couldn't help but think of um other ideas that have come after this that um that remind me a bit of your story in in Rosa we've got the V the the villain that comes back and and tries to change history in the past for his own reasons but more particularly uh
34:16 I I thought of the film yesterday uh which came out much after your story I wondered if uh if whoever wrote yesterday had had listened to this and got some ideas from that because that was also a replacing the beetle story slightly different take on it but similar how often do you come as a writer how often do you come across ideas that kind of seem to be pinched from you or or uh ideas that sort of come out of that same Collective kind of Consciousness yeah I don't know it's it's not happened that many times with me it has happened from time to time um and yeah you do sometimes look at things and go H but um with this one actually lots of people when yesterday was announced lots of people uh said hey didn't you already write this story and
35:02 I don't know it's the thing is to me it's it it's said when I don't I didn't think oh he's Nick my story I definitely didn't think that I think I do think as you say it's it's a collective Consciousness thing it's not um it's not a completely out of the blue thing to kind of think you know what if a big thing that happened hadn't happened um and they yesterday just I've not seen yesterday because I actually think it will probably just annoy me as a Beatles fan because like even just hearing of the concept I was just like how does like so if everyone's just forgotten the Beatles then where have everyone's Beatles records gone because appar that's what Curtis said he said like said but like wouldn't the world be really different if the beat Happ happened he like okay but that mean it's not that they just people just forgotten
35:48 the songs and like but if Paul mcarty just woken up and wondered why do I live in a huge house and like what were all these records that I've been making for 60 years that I can't remember um yeah so now I didn't watch that but it's um yeah it's a very it's a very different take on it it is like yeah someone I know there is that thinging of like someone trying to take the plates but it's a fundamentally different thing and actually the the question which I found because actually yesterday I think was originally the guy who script it originally was he had a different take on it as well which was that someone finds that the Beatle songs don't exist and he goes well I'm going to record them all and then he's frustrated because he still can't he it still can't get anywhere with them because they're out of context like they're still great songs but it's a different time and it's
36:35 not they're not going to suddenly make him famous like they made the Beatles famous um and then Rich Cur threw that out and came with a completely different take on it uh so yeah you just it's yeah it's just an irresistible thing really it's not something I really worry about I've done I've done so many things I've pitched so many ideas like the whole story of my my career in TV has been uh going to people and saying how about this and they go oh we like it but we've got something similar in development and there that people always have something similar there's always a similar idea out there so it's something I I feel like it would hypocritical of me to to get too worried about that and to get angry about it um unless it's a case where you feel like yes that's definitely you can just see
37:21 the shape of your story underneath but I've never encountered that really and music plays a huge role Ro in this story and I guess barnab Edwards was the natural person to come to direct it and um the music score by Howard Carter is just classic in terms of how he managed to catch it and even songs which is very unusual big finish um yeah were you H were you happy with the how the production was actually put together yeah I was really happy with that I mean it was something where they did ask me do you think you could write the songs and I'm like I have no musical ability at all so um so yeah Barney did the songs uh and he did that it was very clever because he he not only he not only went on a Beatles pasti but he also said well on top of that and to make it a little bit different um we've heard a
38:08 bit of the common men's music in uh in an Earthly child and the style of that track that they use to stand in for the common men uh is very like the Shadows um and so he said so what if we kind of say they're aband if trying to try and merge what the Beatles were doing in 1963 with the kind of Records the Shadows were making in 1963 and trying to come up with something that was pathway between the two which a made sense and B I think just kind of meant that it wasn't too close to either that anyone might have kind of wanted to sewers over it it was sort of gave it own its own feel is that why he had the line don't tell Cliff
38:54 Richard um but I um yeah I the I actually might have had a go myself a couple of years ago um as a a sort of pandemic midlife crisis thing I started learning the guitar and I think I possibly might be able to knock out some beetal spases now I would have been tempted to do it myself if if I was doing it today but I certainly didn't have the ability to do it back then I wouldn't have done it as well as as Barney did it um so yeah as it's I think they did a fantastic job because as I say the big stumbling bot with the story was always what about the music what do you do for music and they on the on the resources that we have because music is so expensive especially when you're um yeah especially when you're dealing with it on you you release these things on CD so for licensing purposes I
39:39 think they are often discounted as like well it's not really any different from a music CD um so it's it which I think like makes it more difficult if anything um and they did a fantastic job of of make of giving it a kind of a whole sound but that that evokes the Beatles In the period I mean the harmonies are just perfect now the thing that stru struck me listening to this this again was the scenes are so short um it just moves from scene to scene to scene to scene um is it what what was the choice in making such very quick changing scenes all the time I don't know actually I didn't if it I didn't realize it was noticeably shorter than on other ones I don't know it might have been that I was because I
40:26 was doing the whole um because it was kind of plotted as a series of like one part stories maybe um that I was doing that I don't know maybe it was just it was sort of seeping In from from the period uh that I was um trying to convey that sense of things because you know because things did move very fast for the Beatles it's always fascinating when you go back and look at things and just say you know what they were doing six months earlier would you know would would often be completely different from you know what they were doing at that moment um and maybe that was just trying to sort of absorb that into it I don't know maybe yeah no I had I didn't stru me at the time that that the scenes were very short I guess I was also trying to give a lot of characters a bit of time in the sun one one issue that came up
41:13 quite quickly was that like the standard cast for a big finishes is eight um and I was already coming up with a challenge of like um so I've got Dr nther I'd already come up with the idea that there would a villain who'd be the manager figure uh and then I needed a band of four to replace him I thought well that's already seven characters and that only leaves me like one spare character um to do everything else because I will need you know other characters at some point um but on top of that it was quite awkward to kind of have well you know the driss are the main characters and then trying to give time to four other characters who were kind of operating as one character in a way because like they the their space and the story was kind
41:58 of one space and again it was James Coro Smith I was complaining about this to him and saying like this is a real pain in terms of plotting um and he said well why did you make it that one of the thing at one point I was saying I was G wondering whether should we have a joke that like their version of George because George was always done The Quiet One I was like do we have one who's The Quiet One and he doesn't speak at all um but no James Cy Smith said just make that one of the points of difference is that it's not a Fab Four it's a Fab 3 um and that was brilliant because I was like yes actually that still lets me do everything I want to do and it just adds to the weirdness of it and so it does mean that the kind of isn't one based on George uh so I've got one based on John Paul and Ringo each
42:44 and then the it it yeah I don't want this to sound like harsh on George but it kind of the dynamic still worked fine in terms of the play you know the dynamic of The Beatles would have would have not worked without George but the dynamic for the play actually worked well with just those three uh as they were um because you've got like John and Paul kind doing the creative tugging between them and then the Ringo figure is kind of The Peacemaker and you know the one who's who's sort of refereeing so that that worked quite well because George was the best of all four when it comes to writing music but it was it was it was PA and Paul and John who were the personality of the
43:29 band but yeah I definitely think George George was the best songwriter yeah oh I sorry they could be B they could be I mean they're all brought different Dynamics and different Yeah just they opened up music in very different ways anyhow we're not a Beatles podcast that is fascinating um I me the other decision you take very quickly too is to separate the doctor and Nissa um they hardly get a scene together like um it really gives this a lot of power yeah yeah that's mean it's quite good it's um I think that was again that was probably uh when now when I think about think back to it I think that was probably uh down to having um all these
44:16 quite significant characters that I wanted to give all the band members a reasonable amount of time uh and so and actually I think probably it would have went when they were together they did kind of merge into one character and so I think um it quickly became apparent that splitting up the doctor Nissa so that uh one of them could be I could maybe have like the different band members with them and like kind of in interrogate the those characters through the regular characters that was yeah I think that's probably why I ended up splitting them up so much but also I just I think I've just been rewatching um season 20 because of the the Blu-ray coming out and I'm quite struck by how because you
45:03 thought as well as AR of Infinity uh tan goes off and it's the villain for most of snake dance so she's not part of the thing and they do the doctor and Nissa do really work quite a lot as there is a sense that he puts trust in her and he kind of he he can he doesn't have to kind of explain everything to her all the time and he s of trusts her to do things they do kind of operate quite um effectively as like a real investigative team I think particularly in snake dance they are um you know they they they're a real kind of sort of detective pairing sort of like science detectives they they're they're are going around trying to work stuff out so I think that um that really felt it felt like yeah she's
45:48 a character who actually can give a lot of agency too in in the stories you can feel you feel like you can sort of use her as as as um a th good doctor a lot of the time so is anything that you would like to change about the story or revisit with the story um I don't know I don't know I don't really um no probably not I don't really give that much thoughts of things in that way I my my take tends to be that once it's done it's done and like you know I'd rather move on to the next thing so no I don't know I think probably the only thing is that like yeah if I was doing it now uh I probably wouldn't just say oh I'll write the songs myself but I actually would have quite liked to collaborate a bit with with Barney on them and maybe I could have like you know actually I can't
46:34 remember how they were done in the end I think they were um you know we sort of built up did Howard build up the tracks I think I don't know I don't know who actually put the tracks together and then we got the the cast members to come and quickly like apply vocals to them uh on the day of recording um but yeah I would have quite liked to have been involved and played a bit of guitar on them that would have been quite good great listen thank you so much for your Recollections of this story um and yeah for creating a great story for the 50th Anniversary so thanks to Eddie Robson for chatting with us about that story let's move on to the next one in the trilogy philli and this is the blurb for Doctor Who 1963 the Space Race November 1963 and the Soviet space program reigned Supreme having sent the first
47:21 animals then the first men beyond Earth's atmosphere now they're sending a man and capsule into orbit around the Moon just as boso 7 passes over into the dark side however its life support system fails only the intervention of the sixth doctor and Perry adopting the identities of scientists from Moscow University means that contact with the capture is regained but something has happened to the Cosmonaut on board she appears to have lost her memory and developed extreme claustrophobia maybe she's not quite as human as as she used to be coming soon from Big finish Productions Doctor Who 1963 the space race this is binol control calling VTO 7 do you read I
48:10 repeat this is Bon all control calling VTO 7 why isn't she responding I don't know weather interference radiation from the Van Allen belt could could be anything we're stumbling blindly Into the Dark Side of the Moon let me out hello this is the Doctor Who are you a friend who wants to help you will let me out of here as soon as I can but I need you to help me first no let me out first let me out now there it is I can hardly believe it the first man-made object to hit the Moon by the look of it you're having trouble regaining contact with one of your space capsules am I right you are
48:58 correct how did you find out about the lunar module how do you think is the reason why I was sent here this is Bon all control calling voso 7 do you read five take one step closer and I'll shoot four I believe you would too three I can smell your fear two take him no one wait wait please launch subscribers get more at big finish.com all right philli give us your take on the Space Race I think what I love about this is I love the history and I love the Cold War and so we've gone from something fairly lighthearted and fun in terms of The Beatles or not the Beatles the common
49:43 men um and we've actually moved now into another major event of 1963 and the height of the Cold War and I love mystery novels I love murder mysteries I love um espionage um and this has it all and so you know it starts off in Russia with a murder um with the doerry just escaping you know close close to death having to adopt personalities of Russian spies um it has everything you could want for in terms of this huge epic Russian story and it's traveling along so well and I was just so engrossed in this amazing um spy story and get to the truth of that and then through and it just does this major left hand switch
50:30 and becomes something else totally different yeah um I mean it's similar to there's a film called from Dust to Dawn which is a um murder robbery film and suddenly becomes bad vampires and it's like and I wasn't expecting it at all like I went to this film not knowing anything I try not do anything and just this a massive leftand turn and suddenly I'm not watching the film I thought I was I thought I was watching gangster film and now I'm watching a v horror film I still don't how it happened and the space race did the same thing I thought I was watching a Russian Cold War spy Espionage story and listen to that and it suddenly becomes something totally different um extraordinary different so are we gonna spoil it uh I
51:18 think we do when we chat with Johnny don't we we do anyway um yeah so yeah so yeah spoilers guys make you listen to these stories if you don't want to be spoiled otherwise it doesn't matter that much but it suddenly becomes talking animals and and you know aliens and it just it is bizarre the change that happens but it it's so enjoyable anyway but it gets more and more busy as the story goes on a very complex sort of web of tals all comes together at the end it's both busy but then you have these huge periods of nothing because there there's space travel done in in real time and so you know you have to suddenly wait 3 or 4 days for more action to happen while you're waiting for the moon to for the rocket to get to the moon or to get back from the Moon and with these huge gaps in time which
52:06 you know so the no yeah it is it is very much try to do the space poers again accepting the fact that space travel is slow and takes time um yeah yeah it's very clever what about what did you think no I was exactly the same I was listening along going oh yeah this is cool I can see Colin Baker in Russia perfect he's if anyone's going to be in Russia it's going to be that doctor the six doctor particularly Colin Baker you know we've heard him do Russian accents before so uh he would fit into that world very well even though they didn't do accents in this no thep yes um there was a voice in there and I didn't look at the cast list before I started but I was convinced
52:52 that the actor who plays General uh mik uh leonov was uh Martin Jarvis he sounded to me exactly like Martin Jarvis and I went right I'm looking that up that's Martin Jarvis for sure no it's David Shaw Parker um and that's what struck me it had me sort of had my my mind spinning for a little while because I I thought it was Martin Jarvis but uh yeah really strong powerful voice that you can see as a Russian um but yeah when when when Leica comes back in the Cosa as the Cosmonaut um I was like wow this is great it really it was a eye opener and I was fascinated to see where this was going and boy it took a crazy turn it
53:38 was great I loved it it it's interesting I mean I would the last time I would have heard this was 10 years ago so you know back then I was subscribing every month I was listening every month but I didn't go back and listen to these a second time usually I was usually bit I was just a bit too busy and so this was the first time I gone back to it in 10 years and so I'd forgotten I'd totally forgotten really everything I'd forgot all the twists I'd really forgott the setting I remember nothing about this before I listened to it and so it's just lovely surprise after surprise and I I don't remember it from the first time at all but yeah it was really great this time um you you just mentioned um David Shaw Parker he'd actually come back in strand all the Strand the series as Ron Winters is one of the neighbors right right right so he's also done lot of Survivor stuff as well yeah yes very
54:26 cool throw a bit of trivia excellent well we had a bit of a chat as we mentioned earlier with Jonathan Morris about this story so let's have a listen to that now Johnny Morris thanks for joining us again oh lovely lovely to be here hello chaps hello so we've been talking about your story of the Space Race 1963 I just wonder if you can tell us a little bit about how you first came to be asked to do this anniversary story it would be Alan Barnes who would be the script editor at that time who' um who allocated them and I think uh it was just that the brief was something to do with um 1963 um and not and a long list of
55:14 things that it couldn't be basically so it couldn't be um tying in with an Earthly child it couldn't be um uh bringing back old monsters it had to be new and I think my brief was the sixth doctor and Perry as well because I think uh and I couldn't do the Beetles either because I did Pitch that straight way and it's like no Ed Eddie robson's doing that um so it was trying to think of other stuff was going on then um that I could sort of uh tie my story into um and so I came up with the idea of it being about what was happening in uh the space race at at the time because at at the time I think um we'd they' had stuff like Yu gagaran
56:02 they' been up in space and uh I think the Russians have done their first space walk around then um and the Americans were behind you know they they hadn't really got anywhere um so it would be about it was about going okay about the Russian side the Russian part of the Space Race uh because that's not something that doct hasn't done and what was happening in Russia in 1963 is a bit of an open space I go okay I can I can make stuff up there without worrying about historical experts finding stuff out because when I was looking at what was happening there I couldn't find much out so it was um it was a nice sort of
56:50 uh starting point and then uh I just came up with um a story which was based around um three of the biggest twists I could possibly think of excellent so in terms of youve got very different I one things that stands out is youve got long time spaces because you got Journeys to the moon and back again which all take days to do it now you're doing that all in real time um was it hard to plot out the times in terms of did you work backwards because I mean the assass spoilers people have listen to it go listen to it first otherwise spoilers about to come um a major event of course is this assassination of JFK um so did you did you go from there
57:36 and work backwards how did how did you work out all your timings to make sure things work properly yeah I mean I mean um I mean the three big Cliffhangers the third one is um that uh the doctors in a a capsule um up in space returning to Earth and the American an uh think it's uh an enemy a Russian attack and they launch a missile at it and the doctor sends a message going um get the American president to cancel the to abort the rocket and I think the message comes back going he will just as as he's finished his parade through Texas we'll get him to do it straight away and the idea being that the listener goes okay that's um he's not
58:24 going to finish parade is he um and then they go okay that's November the 22nd um and I work backwards and yes I mean to using the what the technology had at the time uh traveling to the moon and back would take about five days or whatever depending on um those things so that meant while the doctor was off traveling uh to the Moon um I could do time passing on Earth and so what became a small threat at the beginning which was you know one or two uh augmented animals uh taking over the the COS the cosmodrome after five days it could be
59:11 the whole Cosmo drone has been taken over and the remaining humans are besieged within the main sort of control center so it actually gives you a way of making things plausible in way that it takes longer because you go that could have happened overnight but that would be a bit uh implausible but after 5 days or whatever it is um everyone's getting a bit claustrophobic and frazzled and you know and Perry's sort of PL and charge but you know she's sort of um risen to the occasion quite a lot um and then sort of going back you sort of the whole sort of thing is I think in part one I do give the
59:56 date so that it's like November the 11th or something it's 10 days yes um just to seed it in so that but assuming that people will not be keeping track of the days but I'll be keeping track of the day so I know my when it comes to my episode three Cliffhanger it'll be bang on and hopefully it'll be like it's a it's a great moment because that was the thing of going how can I tie it in with the Doctor Who anniversary in a way which hasn't been done before and the Kennedy assassination has been done in uh fiction and science fiction quite a lot you know in terms of um stories about um Time Travelers going back and trying to
1:00:42 uh to prevent it and I didn't want to do that because that's sort of it's been done so much so I was trying to think of a way of going of in incorporating it into the story without it being something people had heard before I did notice you didn't commit yourself to how he was killed though it was still history says it was done by this way but I need to go check still you still still open those conspiracy the I didn't notice that too yeah I mean there there there are certain things in um when you write things you sort of you you worry that you might be trading on someone else's toes that someone's got a really good story out there they want to tell and I don't want to sort of um annoy them and the same with the moon
1:01:28 landing you know I have the moon landing at the end and again I don't want to sort of I was actually because that does sort of it doesn't contradict but it it is um the doct the moon landing turns up again in the Matt Smith era which was uh uh I think around the same time I think it was yes it was probably around the same time um uh but it doesn't contradict it so you're sort of you're you're sort of okay I mean that said um the story does tear up established history quite a lot in terms of going um that the American space program as we discover in the part two was actually massively Advanced and they already had
1:02:14 a moon base on the Dark Side of the Moon which is my part two CL thing just going um you the idea that the doctors in a sort of little capture show he's orbitting in the dark side he looks down and he can see a Stars and Stripes already on the dark side of the me I thought that's a doctor who thing to do that's you know that's a real rug pull that's a that's what that's that's something that Steven uh M would do or Russell do or CH would do it's a you know and when you come up with those moments you go yeah that's a classic Doctor Who moment that has to go in so when you pitched the story did you have all the elements in place place you had set in Russia Russian space exploration do you have the whole animal
1:02:59 PL animals in place with your pitch uh yeah I got the pitch up on my screen now haha um and it's really short it's only two pages uh and it's pretty much exactly the story um as written I think a couple of the names change but it's um I didn't have to change very much I think um I think the main note I got back was just to um to give Perry more to do and uh yeah I think actually it was all it was all um it was quite an easy job really I think it didn't go through many changes
1:03:46 um what's the what's what's your P dated at when yes we can go that that's uh the 16th of 16th of September 2012 so it was the day before my birthday there we go okay finished it in time September it'll be recorded the following May okay yeah I mean I wrote it in December the whole story in December um and so that's that's about normal to have a gap of about four four months of allowing for things to go wrong before it's recorded and getting the actors together
1:04:31 right was always intering see what the timelines are so September you did the pitch how long before you get an before they say yes go for it um I think it was about two months I think uh I start writing on the 29th of November so um I don't even think I think it was probably just um an organizational thing of just them getting the contracts together and getting the um schedule worked out exactly when they needed it um because uh they could have given me go ahead earlier but I I would be waiting for the contract to come through because I don't
1:05:16 start writing until I've got a contract um I've I've with other companies not big finished with other companies I've had my sort of has burnt in that area and I make it a rule um and my agent agrees with me that we we we wait we always wait for the contract y okay is this interesting to see the timeline because of course this is done for the 40th anniversary special it also came out in October 2013 but they're obviously already planning long time ahead if you have September you're doing the pitch so yeah it's interesting how far ahead you have to keep thinking about events that are happening a year 18 months off sometimes more than that yeah I mean that's compared to some of the stuff now which is
1:06:03 recorded potentially decades in decade in advance you know four five I mean uh that was fairly close I don't know if that's why um they use the sort of the the styleart like just the reliable ones the ones who um uh me and my tent pole buddies um but uh I think that it was it wasn't it didn't feel like rushed or late or like had no time it was just um it was lovely to be involved with it um and to be involved with it in a different way you know um because you know everyone expects an anniversary to
1:06:48 be bringing stuff back you know bringing back old companions or doctors or Monsters and but these was like an interesting was each one was like a different take on let's do something different about 1963 1963 um and it it's that thing you always try and do do with Doctor Who which is um even if it's a old what's word even if it's a a 20th century doctor and companion um setup you want the to be new you want it to be um uh exciting and original and fresh and made and contemporary in a sense
1:07:34 that you you you know people are listening to it in 2013 or whatever um so you can't get away with the stuff that they could get away with in 1985 you know um so I mean the obv this one is um how Perry is characterized I
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