Does Ellen White Contradict the Bible?

0:12 Genesis 1:16. The greater light to rule the day. The lesser light to rule the night. And the moon has no light of its own. Ellen White, the lesser light. They handed me a formula and told me it was humble. A lesser light to lead you to the greater. Do not stumble. Belief 18 is printed. It's the church's public stand. A continuing authority, a gift, a guiding hand. And I'll build it at full strength. Before I lay a finger, Joel to pour the spirit out and never named a limit. Ephesians 4 says the gifts run on until we all arrive. So I'm not the guy who says the gift could never be a lie.

0:59 But the line that keep repeating came from letter 196 1902 about the books and the file is where it sits. Sell books that give a light. That's the heading on the page. A cold porter instruction turned into a doctrine of the age. So who told the moon that it could make it day? Every borrowed light goes pill when the sun comes up. No light of its own. No light of its own. The moon only gives back what the sun is thrown. Hold up every lamp to the breaking of the day. There is one light in the room and he's the truth in the way. No light of it. Let it go. If it's far where the morning

1:45 star stood. I don't need a second letter to find my way home. Jesus is the light and the moon has none of its own. 30th of July 1919 Tacoma Park closed room straer running teachers in the dark for Scott asked the question that they all came there to ask how do we use our writings when the history won't last and the president of the general conference gave it straight never claimed to be an authority on history he said that's Daniel's in the room and the transcript holds the date stamp 1202 you can go and read it for yourself 22 days later He wrote the church a different word. Unanimity of belief and no one kind word

2:31 was heard. Same man, same conference. Both of them assigned. One of them went public and one of them of its own. No light of its own. The moon only gives back what the sun is thrown. Hold up every lamp. To the breaking of the day. There is one light in the room. And he's the truth in your way. No light of it. Let go. borrowed where the morning star stood. I don't need a second lantern to find my way home. Jesus is alive and the moon has none of it. On paper, she is formative. The Bible normative, their own words in their own journal, 1981. But Jones in 1894 made her the settling key. And once her pen had touched a

3:17 thing, the argument was done. And one of their own scholars wrote, "A man could not so much as think a doubt about the sanctuary, not even in his mind that is not a lesser light." Beloved, that's a canon wearing borrow. And Luke called the barian noble for auditing an apostle. 2015 San Antonio, they took it to the floor. He wrote number 18. And you could hear the fear come through the door. Somebody at the microphone said, "Don't take truth away." And I understand that tremble. I have felt it in my day. Because when a second light is holding up your certainty, the dimming of that lamp can feel like losing everything. But I am not here to leave you standing in the dark. I'm here to turn your face to where the light has always been. The

4:04 great light is scripture. And I will not take it from you. But open it and tell me whose face is shining through. And him was life. The light became the light of everyone. The moon can point you to it. It was never the sun. No light of it. No light of it. The moon only gives back what the sun is thrown. Hold up every breaking of the day. There is one light in the room that needs the truth in the way. No light of it own. Let it go. If it's borrowed, it can't stand where the morning star stood. I don't need a second letter to find my way home. Jesus is the light and the moon has none of its own.

4:49 The greater light is the word and the word became flesh and lived among us. I am the way and the truth and the life. That is the light. That is enough.

5:35 What's up, Thinking Cup family? It is good to be here. I have been away on business. We were in Branson, Missouri for I say we, me and a few uh other business partners roughly like a hundred. So, a few. We had a great time. We were uh up on top of the rock uh lake. We had a blast. We got a lot of lot of stuff done. Um, and I got started in my Greek class. Goodness gracious, it's going good. Here's uh here's my book. I'm learning Greek, friends. It's good.

6:22 I can't can't even get that back now into the into the folder. Yeah. So, I'm learning uh learning the Greek alphabets, learning vocabulary, learning dip thongs, learning and if you don't know what a dip thong is, then you don't know what Greek is, learning um how to type in Greek. I have my first assignment to type in Greek. Uh so, yeah, it's good uh good to be here. I went through the first first four chapters of of this book here and I've been working diligently on my flashc cards like a good student. So, if you want to learn Greek with me,

7:08 well, join the Discord server and jump into the Greek channel. You'll know which channel that is because a couple others are learning Greek with me. So there'll be some fun stuff in there. Uh I will jump in and share some things that I'm learning. I do let me show you this. Uh this was given to me by a good friend. I consider him my um you know like a father that I never had. That kind of individual. Uh this is an older edition of Nestle Allen's uh Greek text. And uh believe it or not, if you learn the alphabet,

7:54 you can read Greek. Is the audio echoey? Is that what you're saying? The audio. Let me see. Oh, I know. Why? I'll bet you that's better now. Is that better? I hadn't been here so long that uh that should be better because I changed the microphone. Let me know if that's better. I'm going to wait to see if you guys mention if it's better or not. Um but it should get better. So this is There you go. Thank you, Matt. I appreciate you, man. You uh you figured it out. I had the wrong audio picked. Uh today's episode is going to be a little bit more casual, just so you all know. So buckle up. We're going to do some fun stuff today.

8:41 Um, yeah, it does matter when you get the wrong microphone. I have the microphone that's connected to uh the the camera and uh well, that's like 3 feet away from me versus the microphone that's right here. So, let me go back to this. Um this was given to me by a friend who they used to attend the Adventist church where I was a head elder and uh when they stepped away from the church uh he used to be a professor actually in the Adventist institution and he gifted me some of his original uh textbooks that he used in in the in the classroom. This is from the 1980s actually. This is an older edition of Nestle Allen. And man, it has been fun to be able to get in and actually read

9:28 some of the words in Greek. Yes, in Greek. That's fun stuff, guys. You should do it. So, if you want to jump in and uh learn some stuff with me, jump in the Discord channel and make sure you pay attention to the section that's all about Greek. Uh, and if you don't know where, ask Derek, uh, or some of the other mods. They'll figure you out in there. Hey, a lot's happened. Um, I have to make a quick announcement while you're hopefully getting something to drink. Okay, I'm having Celsius today. I don't know why they call it Celsius. Maybe it's maybe Fahrenheit was already taken. Um,

10:14 but something fun happened this last week. The Advent Defense League decided to jump in on the Discord idea and in about a week, week and a half or so, they had about 150ome uh individuals that were in there. And then after a reasonably hot conversation in one of the forums, audio channels, dialoguing this, that whatever, I don't know the reason, but surprise surprise, the server got deleted. It was just blown up. So, apparently, um, well, this is my opinion anyways. Apparently, Adventism doesn't do too well when it's not moderated because you

11:01 have to have someone telling people what to do and how to think and how to look at things in order for the conversation to go well. And I don't think Edwin really appreciated that. So, that's not me picking on Edwin. He can do what he wants. Let's jump into the conversation today. I do want to show you something as we're getting started. Um, if you aren't yet, uh, if you aren't yet, I would love to have you jump into Hey, look, Edwin's on. Hey, it's good to have you, Edwin. Glad you're here. Appreciate you you being here. And no, I'm not going to send you a link to the live stream. So, it's it's good you're here, though. I'm glad you're here. Today's not a Edwin jump on day. So, it's good to have you,

11:47 Edwin, but hopefully you'll stick around and learn some stuff today. Um, so here's here's something I want you to pay attention to. If you go to the um the website, okay, you'll notice a few updates that I want you to be aware of. You'll see this big tab that says member only. Now, you might be wondering, how do you get access to it? How do you get access to member only? Well, if you click on this become a member, okay, if you aren't properly connected utilizing Patreon or YouTube, either of those, okay, you will get sent to a payw

12:33 wall, a kind of, hey, you need to connect your accounts. Now, I'm not going to show you how to do that, but I want you to see, okay, what we're going to be looking at today with regards to um today's conversation. So, this is going to be a part of the membersonly article. We're going to go through some claims today and those claims are going to come from a a paywalled article. Okay? So you only members, you'll see these down here, A1, A2, all of these items all the way down here. There's a bunch of claims in here with all the research and stuff. Now, we're going to go through as many as we can up to 12

13:18 today. I'm going to show receipts. We're going to look at actual articles. We are not going to have a live jump on the live stream and b at me like Edwin wants to do. We're not going to do that, okay? We are just going to have an actual discussion about the uh some of the articles in here. Now, as we're going through the conversation today, if you so desire to use the super chat, you're welcome to do that. Uh that will benefit the ministry obviously. uh but uh it will also put you at the top of the questions as we go through Q&A in the uh in the interactions today. So hopefully you'll stick around and learn

14:03 a few things as we dive in today. It's good to be here and it's good to have you. Edwin, it's good it's good for you to be here by the way. It's very good. I'm glad you're here. Hey, so today's conversation is really premised around um one question and that is did Ellen White contradict the Bible? Did Ellen White contradict the Bible? That's the that's the question. Okay. And it's really much of what we have been discussing on the engaging adventism series, the 16 episode series, uh was not all about

14:49 her, but a lot of it engaged either theology that came from her or was supported by her. And so we spent a lot of time in kind of working through what we call or what I call the web of Adventism. So, did Ellen White contradict the Bible? Um, and I think that those watching, whether you're an Adventist, a former Adventist, or a never been an Adventist, uh, looking at the Seventh Adventist Church as maybe a Christian institution, you're not sure or familiar with exactly what they believe and what's going on. And so, I think it's a fair question. It's one that we need to address and answer whether or not Elen White ever does

15:35 actually contradict the Bible itself. So, let me just be very transparent. I'll give you all my cards up front. And the card is is yes, Ellen White does contradict scripture in places, not always. Okay? And I'll show you as we go through today's conversation uh where, why, how that works. Um, and again, this all comes from an article. If you're a paid supporter, uh, you're welcome to to research through and spend time digging through. I did something different this time, and that is we're going to actually a lot of times I'll show things either on a slide that is quoted, like there's a quote that's actually cited with the place that you

16:21 can go. That's oftentimes helpful. Um, therefore you can go look and kind of see where it is. Other times I will show you quotes inside of Logos oftentimes. Um, the challenge there being is logos is just a digital version. I think sometimes people want to see the actual hard copies and so today is a tad bit different in that um the slides that we are looking at they will have the page clipped out of the document that the quote is coming from so that you can see um kind of where it's coming from. Okay, I'm not going to show you the physical um physical books today. That'll take too much time. There is a book back here

17:06 that I will probably pull off at one point because it's an important one that uh that we'll look at. All right, here's the other thing I want to say as we dive in. Um, when we're talking about Ellen White, did she contradict scripture? Uh, what I don't mean when I say yes in summation, yes, I believe she did. Okay, now I got to prove that. Okay, that's a claim that I'm making, right? So, I've got to do my best to prove that to the audience, to you all. Okay? And then you'll be able to determine if that's the case or not. What I don't mean is I don't mean that she had maybe a different emphasis or a different context.

17:55 I don't mean that maybe her language that she used during her time, well, it was just different. And so just because she used different language, she didn't contradict. Okay? I don't I don't mean that. I mean something that's very very very specific when I say this. Okay? There are there are specific passages. There are specific places in Ellen White's writings where she wrote um she wrote something very specific. And what the text what the biblical text says if you hold them next to each other what the biblical text says cannot be true at the same time as what she's

18:42 saying. Okay. Um so and again rather than just telling you we're going to look at some of this stuff side by side. We're going to look at the biblical text. We're going to sort through. And as I always say don't take my word for it. Just study the text, read it, and um you determine. Okay? I don't have anything to hold here. I hope and desire that everyone here digs in deep. I hope they have open minds. I hope that they're willing to ask questions that maybe the church doesn't want you to ask. Maybe they're afraid that you ask. Or maybe you've been told that if someone asks this question, this is the right answer. That's not always a good way to engage

19:28 in scripture. Okay. So, tonight we're going to look at hopefully 12. Although I may only get through six. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see what happens. Okay. Uh I do because I do have a hard stop tonight. So, we'll see what happens. Um what what we're also going to be looking at, okay, as we open the books, okay, her books, the Bible, some standard commentaries, we'll look and engage a little bit in uh some Adventist scholarship as well because they have thought about some of these questions and statements uh and they tend to uh dismiss certain issues in certain ways. If you have ever been Adventist a day in

20:17 your life, just one. Okay, please stay with me today. Stay with me. Okay, what you're about to watch is a case study on what happens when a tradition, a Christian tradition sets a second voice beside scripture. And it's even more emphatic when they claim that as they do that Ellen White is lesser than. Okay, so they claim in tradition that Ellen White is not scripture is not above scripture. In practice, everything is filtered through. meaning that if you

21:05 come to a conclusion that is contrary to what it is that Ellen White states, well, you most certainly can't be right. Okay? She she was the one that was given divine revelation on certain topics. Okay? And uh again, if you're a hardcore avenist, okay, if if you're here and you're you're hardcore, I would uh I would just ask that you spend less time in heated chat. I I love having the chat go off. Um, I have found that it's less useful to be able to actually understand what's being made and the arguments that are being made on the conversation on the screen when all you're doing is being reactive and responsive to uh to things that might trigger you as an

21:51 Adventist. Don't be triggered. Just ask why. Why is it that I feel that certain way? Why is it that I respond in a certain way when someone says X, Y, and Z about or I read something in Ellen White? Okay, nothing tonight is a trick. It's all all available for you to study. Everything's sourced as we always try to do. And if per chance I might get something wrong tonight, please reach out to me. You can find me on the website. You can jump into Discord. uh I am definitely easy to uh to interact with. So if uh if you have a question please please please uh don't hesitate to jump in.

22:38 Now before we before we dive in today uh let me get things situated before we get into the first entry. Now, I'm going to be referencing certain questions, and those questions are going to come from the actual dossier that's behind the um the the payw wall. So if if we have supporters here and you have access to, you can go actually on the website that I already shared with you, you can click into that document and you'll see questions one through 10 or through 50, however many are that you've already read through and you'll be able to see.

23:24 So, I'm going to reference some of that um and let you know kind of what question we're at with regards to what I've labeled Ellen White's scripture divergence catalog. So, where does Ellen White diverge from scripture? Now, there's three things I want to lay down before we get started. Okay? Uh and these are the reasons why we're we're doing this, why I'm going into this particular conversation. I am excited that next week, okay, make sure you're subscribed because next week we are back into the Brienne series. We're back into the Brienne series next week on Friday. So, um this this will be a one-off

24:09 conversation. Uh if we don't get through all of these, I might come on and do part two of the divergence uh catalog itself. Okay, first of all, here's what I want to say. First of all, um this this particular catalog of 50. Now, I could I could have put probably 150. Okay. Um whenever you're looking at areas where uh someone like Ellen White might diverge from scripture, uh you have to determine which ones do you include, which ones do you not include. um anytime there's things that well maybe it just isn't talked about. Okay, it's not like it's contradictory.

24:55 Um so it's it can't be really proved one way or the other. Um those aren't things that I would include in something like this. Okay. Um I think that this particular thing is a little bit tighter than just where does she differ per se. Uh we're looking at where does she completely go contrary or diverge. uh from from scripture. So, I've been compiling these for the last couple of years um building, as I said, what I call the Ellen White scripture divergence catalog. I've made much of that available. There will be more to come as I continue to work through it. It's effectively one entry per Locust. Okay. Um each entry carries her own

25:41 words quoted with the addition and the page number. It carries the passage. It's context because I am always told I'd be rich if I was given a penny every single time an avenist told me that. Well, Mike, you're just understanding it out of context. Okay? So, I'm giving the context. It carries as well the exeetical case made the way you would kind of make it in a seminar room. Okay? it carries the strongest Adventist answer to that case and I try to state that case fairly. Um, and I do that before I ever respond to the thing that that's that's being

26:26 discussed. Okay. Each entry also carries a verification trial uh or a trail that you can actually follow. so you can look through the details of everything that's being looked at. Because again, I'm not here to tell you what to believe. I'm here to share research and information with you in a way that you can then look and read through and figure out for yourself if you're seeing the same things that I've come to conclusions on. Okay? So, every entry in this kind of catalog carries a status. Nothing gets asserted before a verbatim uh primary source. I'm big on that. It has to have a primary source reference. What do I mean by primary

27:13 source? Well, if it's Ellen White, a primary source would be something she physically wrote. Okay. Um primary source documentation for scripture. Uh the best primary source we have are the actual manuscripts themselves. If you can't read primary source manuscripts because you may not know Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, then you're probably going to have to work with secondary sources and those secondary sources reference the primary source. Um, and then you have other types of of references and such. So, what we're dealing with here is if James White makes an assertion, we're going to go look and see what James White says. Okay? We're not going to look at

27:59 necessarily what Joe Schmo quotes James White for saying. Okay. Um, and that's going to be true for this whole kind of that's true for the catalog. It's it's it's true for the divergence catalog that I made, but it's also true for what we're going to discuss um tonight. The second thing, okay, the second thing, and let me just um let me just tell you what this does not claim. Okay, I want to be very very very very much upfront. Okay, because if I don't claim this upfront, some people might think that maybe I'm backpedaling later on. This catalog is not meant to be exhaustive. Uh what we're going to talk about is not exhaustive. Um, I'd welcome you into the Discord chat to discuss

28:46 some of the other maybe fringe areas that people think uh that she might in her corpus of literature uh that she might have diverged from scripture or contradicted or whatever it might be. Ellen White has has roughly like 25 million words. An incredibly large number of words. Okay. Um, so something like maybe 130 books and compilations. Uh, some have said like 5,000 period periodical articles, 8,000 letters, manuscripts. I mean, this woman wrote a bunch. Now, whether or not it was all her writing, whether or not it was her her scribes, her, you know, whatever, we're not going to get into the plagiarism, literary borrowing, we're not going to get into

29:32 any of that tonight, okay? We're just going to take it at face value. If it's got her name on it, we're going to assume that she asserted it. Okay, she wrote it. Okay. Um, so again, it's not exa exhaustive in any way, shape, or form. Um, it also does not blur four different kinds of claims. And when I say four different kinds, there are categories that I reference in this particular document. And yes, I'm referencing the document because this I want you all to understand what it does and what kind of research it is. Okay? And I think this is really really really important. Okay? There's a category A. Let me just pull up

30:20 um let me pull this up here. Okay? And you'll you'll understand what I'm saying and what I mean by this. Okay? As we're going through this. Uh let me pull this up on the screen. So you'll notice on the right hand side it says category A okay where a reading of the text fits against the text. So there is there is category A. These entries make one kind of claim and no other. Okay. So category A says her reading of a text fails against the text. That isn't a um that that's an that's an exegetical claim. And then you settle it by exugesus is what happens. So here's what

31:05 she claims. Here's what scripture says here, you know, here's what I understand scripture to say. That's an exogetical claim. So she asserts something and then you are you are determining and I do this in the article. I would encourage you to do it as well. You then do the study and say, "Hey, I don't think that's actually what scripture says." So that's an exogetical claim. That's category A. Okay, exeetical. There's a bunch of exoggetical claims that are in this document. Okay, category B is a little bit different. Category B says that she taught something specifically on visionary authority that scripture nowhere teaches.

31:52 So that isn't necessarily a contradiction. It's what would be called an addition. Now again, you have to judge that particular thing. It's a little bit different. Okay? So, she she clearly asserts something. There's absolutely nothing in the text that says what it is that she says. What do you do with it? Okay. And I work through some of those. Okay. Category C. And we're going to pick one from each of these uh tonight at minimum. Okay. Category C is what I've classified as failed predictions. Now, you have to be careful with failed predictions because some are kind of

32:38 gray. Eh, okay. Um, some are easier to go after and then because maybe the way she phrased certain things, it's a little bit harder to maybe make that argument. Um, but category C is failed prediction. um that one does not get settled by exugesus at all. Okay. The way it gets settled is by Deuteronomy 18:22. And if you were a part of the um engaging Adventism series, you know exactly what that is. That's that's their own text for determining a false prophet, for determining failed predictions. Okay? So, not not one that I'm importing or trying to trap someone

33:24 into. It's their own dialogue on it. Okay. Category C is her corpus against itself. So, it's all of her writings. For those for those I don't particularly need a commentary on this particular set. It's irrelevant what commentators might say about it because she says one thing and then she says a different thing. All I need is to compare her own statements against each other. Um the strongest cumulative case um keeps those four separate. Okay. when you when you start

34:09 combining things and pulling from this and that category if you can keep them separate and just deal with one particular thing each category uh separately that's the strongest argument the weakest arguments are those that kind of fit all of these into one kind of conglomeration. Okay. Um so that's um that's kind of the the the big thing about the way the the corpus works, the way the actual um the document itself works. Now there is a third thing I want to bring up and then we'll get started. Um you're going to hear me say 50 tonight. You're going to hear me say that there's 50. Okay? That number means something very specifically so that you

34:56 guys are aware. 50 entries in the article. Okay, there's 50 entries in this article that I've written where I can put primary sources in front of you today. Today, okay, it's a floor. It's not this is all. It's a starting point up to now. I can give you 50 that I can provide primary sources that you can then go and research. Okay? It's a floor. It's not a ceiling. So, if someone watches this later, there might be a hundred, there might be 200, there might be I don't know how many. Okay? But currently, based on what I've been compiling, we have as of today, the 28th of this month, as of today, um that's

35:44 that's the that's the floor. Okay? It's not the ceiling. All right. So, there are 12 entries that I am hoping that we can that we can get through and we may not get through all of them tonight. Okay. But there are um 12 entries and most of you know that Daniel 8 is really important. Okay. Okay. Okay, if I say I'm about to say a date and that date is going to be relevant to a chapter in Daniel. So when I think when when you think of the most important date in Adventism, a date, okay, that would be where where

36:31 did 1844 come from? What about a specific room where Christ is said to have gone? Okay. There is a very specific response in Adventism to a date, a room, a ledger. Okay, when I say ledger, okay, what's being done in that room currently? And then a price. Now the price is what the whole system, the Adventist systematic theology, the entire system of Adventism, what that system gives up, what it what the system costs, what does it have to

37:18 give up in order to have this neat, nice, systematic theology that that kind of plays well with itself. And part of that is a divided atonement or a two-phaseed atonement. Okay, a divided atonement, a withdrawn me. We're going to talk about mediator and mediation. Okay, you'll hear that a little bit today. And then a a church kind of destined to fail a test. And when I say that, you're probably going to think and and I'm hoping anyways if you know Adventism enough, you'll think Mark of the Beast, Sunday law, Sabbath, seal, you know, there's

38:03 the church is destined to fail this test because it's the genuine test of what a true Christian, a Christ follower is, a genuine Christian. And lastly, there's five kind of movements. This is the fifth one. So we have a date, a room, a ledger, and a price. And then the fifth one is an authority. An authority. Why anybody believed these things? Why did they believe them when there were people outside that were disagreeing and telling them it was wrong? Okay. And the loop that made it possible to impossible rather to disprove. There's a loop that

38:48 gets kind of threaded through. There's a way in which you think as an Adventist that makes it harder to allow yourself to disprove some of these things. So, let's get started with the date. Let's get started with the date. And what I want to do is I am going to pull up a a dialogue between Richard Davidson so that you can get kind of a a a feeling of what this actually is. I'll put this on my screen. Hopefully you guys can hear this well. I'll make it full screen for you. And

39:36 here we go. Okay. So, I I hope that you've caught the the statement there that kind of the gist of what Richard Davidson is saying.

40:22 By the way, thank you. Uh huge huge shout out. Um thank you so much. Uh Vive, I appreciate you tons. Uh it is an honor to be able to do some of these presentations on these topics and I I truly could not do this without the support of you all. So thank you uh a ton for that support. I appreciate it. So let's so let's kind of hear okay um what Richard Davidson kind of asserts here is he he makes justification by faith the the center of the prophecy. Okay. Not the date, not the courtroom. Okay. He makes that kind of the the this the center of it. Now, everything Adventism Everything Adventism

41:10 is distinctively about or or it runs through a single verse. And again, you know this. You know this if if you've interacted at all with Adventism. Was there no audio on the clip? Seriously, no audio. All right. Well, that is very, very disappointing. All right, then. Here, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to give me just a second. I'm going to fix this. Okay, give me a second. I'm going to replay the audio. Okay,

41:58 give me a second. Here we go. Um, okay. I'm going to replay the audio. Okay, so I apologize for that. Um, let's go to this instead. I'm gonna go back to right about in here. Okay. Um, let me go. Let me right where he Okay. Right where he starts talking here. Uh, we're going to do uh we're going to do this again. Let me know. Please, please, please let me know that you can hear this. Okay.

42:45 >> Yeah. >> Can we do that? Yeah. Well, I think it it can start by uh going to Daniel 7 and saying what is the key text? The key verse is judgment was given in favor of the saints. >> It's the gospel, the gospel message. And go to Daniel 8 and the three things that Nitto means. The first one is to restore the tamid, the gospel, >> the gospel. If we haven't restored the gospel of justification by faith and and it's and that's not the center of what we're studying in our prophecies, we've totally missed the point. >> Wow. I Okay. So, I I want that to be very very clear with regards to,

43:33 you know, again, and I appreciate those of you that are catching me in the audio. Um, so thank you. everything. My point is is that everything in everything Adventism is distinctively about. It runs through a single verse. Okay? He's he's referencing Daniel 8. He's talking about it. He's going to make some statements later that are so specifically about this particular thing. In fact, specifically about one word, NISDOC. Okay? Um, but it all runs through Daniel 8 and specifically it's going to be about Daniel 8 14. Most of you know this, okay? If you've been here.

44:19 Now, I want to be very careful here, okay? Because the easy move for a critic is to is to pick whichever whichever verse he thinks is loadbearing in his discussion and then knock him over. Like having discussion isn't about just trying to find a way to kick someone off their argument. It's actually listening to how it fits their whole entire system. Okay. And more importantly, it's while Richard Davidson is a voice. He's a voice. Okay? He isn't the voice. He is a voice. He's a very distinctive voice as a modern Adventist scholar, but he

45:05 isn't necessarily the voice. And so, what I want to do is I want to go to um Ellen White. Now, as I said on the lefth hand side, this is actually a faximile of the of the actual section from the book that we're going to be referencing. It's not a great image, okay? But you can at least be able to kind of follow a little bit. This is at the very top, the scripture which above all others, okay? And I've got it written out here in print. This is on page 409 in the 911 version. Okay? 1911 version. So it says this, the scripture above which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the

45:51 advent faith was the declaration quote unto 2,300 days then the sanctuary will be cleansed. Now there's something interesting going on in here. Okay, but notice foundation central pillar her words. Okay. And if you remember from the engaging Adventism segment, her husband said the same exact thing about what rests on it. Okay? What rests on it. Now, I'm going to read this out of the Adventist systems strongest research on this. Okay? And that would be Darcom. So, I'm going to read this out of

46:37 Darcom. Now, this is physically taken out of the book. This is um this is technically James White, but it's quoted in Darkcom. Darkcom being uh what would be considered secondary resource. Okay, that's a secondary resource that's quoting a primary quote. Okay, we could go to James. We did that on the engaging Adventism. We went there and actually read what James White said. Okay. Now, I was told something interesting this week just before I engage in this. Okay. You guys let me know if you think this is fair. I'll leave names out at least for now. Okay. I was told that it doesn't really matter what the pioneers said. If they if they

47:25 say something about or reference something that Ellen White said and this person doesn't agree with it, then you know what? Screw it. It doesn't matter what they say because they're just wrong. Oh, by the way, that was that was something that was said by Well, I won't I won't say names. I don't know if I'm supposed to say who said that, but someone told me that in a conversation in a group conversation this last week that hey, these two individuals with reference to the amalgamation conversation, these two individuals, even though they referenced and supported what Ellen White said or at least interpreted what Ellen White said, okay, um, well, they're just wrong. And because they're just wrong, I don't care

48:12 what they said. Okay. Well, this is James White. Okay. So, let's see what James White said. Let's see what he says. And may maybe you go along with what Well, I won't go there. Here's what James White is. It's right here in the center of the center of the page here. James White affirmed. And here's the quote. Okay? And the quote is on the screen here. We have here and there's a there's a parenthesy there. Okay? that's added um in the doctrine of the sanctuary, a citadel of strength. Here all the great pillars of present truth center and our system of truth forever remains unshaken while this citadel stands. Now that is quoted

48:58 out of Darkcom volume 5. It's a direct quote from James White. So it's a citadel. We again that was a big part of what we discussed with regards to the engaging adventism series. So nobody can say I don't think it's honest even though this isn't Ellen this is James White. Okay. Even though this is James White um th it's it's not fair to say well I I can't take what the pioneers said. I mean it they were just wrong. So I can't take okay nobody can say that I went after a soft target. This is primary source. This is

49:44 your researchers that are quoting your pioneers with regards to how they view their particular interaction, their particular system. Now I want to give a big shout out again. Okay. Um, Tommy Tamoy, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your support. New SDA, I'm so glad you're out. I'm so glad. So, so very very glad. Please reach out. Join the Discord Discord channel if there is anything that we can do to help support you. We would love to have you be a part of the uh part of part of the the community there and uh would love to help you in any way we can. So so so so grateful to hear this and thank you

50:29 again for the support. Appreciate this tons. So let's go back now. Okay, because here's what I want I I want to go back to um Logos and I want to look at the actual text. Remember that's we already looked at what they're saying, what Ellen White, what James White, what the researchers are saying with regards to this particular I should have, by the way, I should have a big like um celebration mode when I get a comment. I I got so excited I got distracted. I got so excited when I saw this pop in uh because I'm so grateful that he is um that that this individual, okay, is understanding and seeing the inconsistencies

51:14 and is uh is willing to move out of something that uh that might at first look good, feel good, sound good, taste good, but I'm telling you, my friend, it is bittersweet. might be sweet at first, but man, it is it it turns rotten the more more time you're in. So, uh so grateful uh to hear that. So, let's look at what the actual text says. Okay. Daniel 8:13 and 14. Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, quote, "For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the

52:00 sanctuary and host to be trampled?" And he answered him, quote, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings, then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful position." Now, there are four things that I want you to notice about this particular verse, specifically verse 14. Okay? And any one of these taken on its own is a problem for 1844. When you put them together, it's very, very, very, very clear. Okay? And I think I think they're decisive when you put it together. Again, I referenced this already one time in

52:46 several of the previous episodes, but we're just looking through. If you go through chapter 8, notice down here. Okay. Um, he's going to get an interpretation of the vision. Okay. Gabriel, this is the beauty of this particular chapter. We don't have to wonder what it means. Uh, Daniel hears this statement, Gabriel interprets it. If you scroll down to verse 18 through 22, it's very clear. They tell you who it is that's in the vision that was just referenced in verse 13 and 14. You don't have to guess. Okay? The ram is Media Persia. That's in verse 20. Okay? It's in the text itself.

53:31 You can see it. The goat is is Greece. The male goat is the king of Greece. Very clear. No complications. Okay? Uh the great horn between its eyes is the king. Um so you already see that the four horns are the four henistic kingdoms as the horn was broken in its place. The four kingdoms that arose from so you don't have to guess. This is all notice that there's no reference to Rome. Okay. the little horn. It's very clear the little horn. The the one that the entire Adventist reading hangs on. Okay? The one that that comes out of

54:17 verse 9, whatever you take as to the winds and the all that other stuff, okay? Whatever that is. Okay? It tells you down here. Okay? As for the horn, it tells you. Okay? Okay. So, so this isn't you don't have to guess. Okay. It's a out of one of those four. That's the natural antecedent. And it's it's literally just in the text. All it takes is you to pick up a Bible, read it. You don't have to have any complicated interpretations in order to go through it, in order to see exactly what's happening. Now I've referenced this before but on this

55:04 particular thing you'll notice that this is the reason why scholars like John Collins for example is very very clear when he says all commentators now when he's referencing all he's speaking of critical commentaries he's not referencing every single commentator out there in the world okay but he's referencing because he's a critical commentator all comment Commentators recognize that the chapter in its present form refer to the time of Antiochus Epiphies. Now that's the reason why it's not complicated. Okay, just read the text. You can see the interpretation from Gabriel. You see that it there is no Rome that's referenced. So what what has to come out? Well, it has to come out of the

55:50 Henistic period. What horn comes out of the Henistic period that does all the things that's described? Well, that's not complicated, right? It's Antiochus. Wow. Okay. It doesn't take a lot to just look at the natural reading and to kind of understand what's going on. Okay. Now, the second thing is the verb. Okay. And if if you only take one thing tonight out of this, I I want you to take I'd like it to be this one. There's going to be some others that I think are going to be important, but um this I think is going to be helpful. We're going to do a

56:36 little bit of a word study uh inside of Logos. The number of times I have interacted with Adventists and their approach to studying, I cannot tell you this is it's horrible, but the number of times that they say, "Well, we we use the William Miller approach." Well, that's a problem. I mean, he clearly got something wrong, right? You probably should second guess that first of all, but secondly, it's pretty common for Adventists to use their Strong's concordance. Now, the reason that a Strongs concordance isn't helpful, and let me just explain what a Strong's concordance does. Okay, a Strong's concordance will take the English word

57:23 and it will tell you the number of times that English word and English meaning the way it's translated in a particular translation. So you'll have a Strongs NIV, you'll have a Strongs KJV, you'll have a Strongs whatever, right? Whatever the version is, if it's strongs for that particular version, then that document cataloges that resource cataloges all of the times that the word is translated English in this way. Once you find that particular word, it will tell you everywhere that it's used and then it will give you the gloss definitions. Now, gloss just means all the potential things it could be. Okay. What what Strongs does not do, and

58:11 this is the reason why Strong's concordance is so damaging to biblical study. It's a place to start, but don't stay there, friends. You can do better. The reason it's so damaging is that it's very easy for someone to go into a Strong's concordance, see several different gloss definitions, and what they do is they pick well see it can mean this and so therefore it could mean it here and they apply it. Now that is not good language related study. Okay, Strongs is not a language or a lexicon. It's that it does not perform in those that way. Okay,

58:56 now what I want to look at, okay, very specifically, okay, with regards to this, we're going to go into logos and we're going to pull up on the bottom. It's what's called a um a a reverse interlinear. All that means is at the very very top you'll see the surface text. You'll see some periods here or some dots. What that means is um you'll notice that there are some uh Hebrew words that don't get translated. That's what the dot is. If the dot is in the MSS, which is the manuscript line, that means that these are words that are translated, but there is no actual Hebrew word for that. It's just it's extra words that have to be used in the language to try to explain in a way the

59:45 thing that's trying to be described in the original language. Okay. So, we're going to look at in verse 14 um we're going to look at this this term right here. Okay. You'll see uh NISDOC. Okay. And you'll see shall be restored to its rightful state. Now, I'm going to duplicate this panel and I'm going to go to the King James version because I know that that's a lot of times what an Adventist will have heard this being referenced as this word cleansed. Okay? So, you'll see cleansed. Cleansed is what's being utilized down here for NISD, which is this this Hebrew term right here. Okay. Um, NISDOC.

1:00:32 Um the difference between this MSS the manuscript the manuscript is physically what's on the manuscript the lema is the lexical entry that you would go to a lexicon to kind of like when you go to a a dictionary if you're looking up runner or running you don't look up running you go to run and then under run you see all these different words and you find underneath run, you find the word that's kind of a part of that subset. Okay? It's very similar in Hebrew. It's it's almost identical. So, you're going to go to in um in in the lexicon, you'd go to this particular Hebrew word, and it's in relation to the actual manuscript word,

1:01:19 which is nisd. Okay? It's a verb. That's what the morphology is down here in the bottom. That v is a verb. Technically, it's a verb in the nefal stem. third person, masculine, singular. Okay, not that that matters too much, but morphology tells you how certain things function, whether it's a noun, preposition, it tells you what to do based on certain things. And Hebrew is different than Greek. I don't know much about Hebrew with regards to the language itself. I'm learning more now that I'm taking Greek and will be for the next two and a half years, and I'll be two years in uh in Hebrew as well. So hopefully I'll be able to come a little more prepared to be able to teach you guys some of this stuff. So this term here for cleansed.

1:02:05 Okay, if you do a word study on this, okay, I'll go to a Bible word study. I'm going to put this side by side here. Okay, you'll notice that inside I'm going to go back to the NRSV because that will help you understand what's happening. So on the right hand side, this little wheel, this is the um this is set to the NRSV updated edition. I'm looking at NISDAC, which is the word we get righteous uh or or it might be cleansed. It might be restored. Uh righteousness comes from it. You'll see all these terms down here around the wheel. This is this is a semantic domain wheel. Meaning that this term in the

1:02:52 center can be semantically interpreted several different ways. You could it could be a quit. It could be right, justify, vindicate, righteous. And you can't just pick a word. You can't pick a definition and run with it. The context of the definition is determined by the semantic domain and the context of the words around it, the morphology and how it's being used. This is no different than me using the word run. For example, if I say I run to the store, you know it's probably either me physically running or I jump into a car. You know that if you know English. Okay.

1:03:39 If I say my water is running, you know that it's not going to the store. You know it's not putting shoes on. Like these are common things that you would understand and you do understand because you understand how English works. Okay. Now, what I what I want to show you is I want to look at another clip here. Um, and I think this will be helpful. Let me uh let me pull this up. I'm going to get the audio working properly. Give me just a second because I have to do it a tad bit differently here. Okay. >> Okay. So, let me

1:04:25 let me add this to stage here. That's not what I wanted to do. All right. Now, I am going to we're gonna move to this one. I got to do it a tad bit differently. Here we go. Um, we're going to look listen to just a a few um a few seconds of this. Okay. >> But but is there something more? Is there is there something that the Sabbath is a part of? And it seems like the sanctuary is where that is synthesized. If you had to synthesize that down into one sentence or one paragraph, what would that be for you? >> How about how about one? Can I do it in one word? >> Oh, yeah. >> I like to do it in one word. And it's what the Bible does. Daniel 8:14,

1:05:12 then shall the sanctuary be nitto. That's the word. That's what's happening right now. >> Right. >> Restoration made right. >> And and so you got to go now. Then I explain it in one sentence. So nettock has three meanings. To restore and to cleanse and to vindicate. So we're living in the time in which God is restoring the gospel to its pristine beauty as it was in the early church >> and where he is judicially removing blotting out all record of sin in the heavenly sanctuary and doing a work of cleansing in our life too. Yes. Mhm. >> And he is vindicating us and his his own

1:06:01 character before the universe. That's it. That's the message we get to prove. And then there's all kinds of implications of that. That's the three angels message. You can find all three of those points in the in the three angels me. >> Oh boy. So he here's here's what he was asked. He was asked kind of what is the central thing that we as Adventists should be should be you know should be speaking and and he was asked to synthesize that down into kind of a a a central point a central ideology and what he did and this is true to

1:06:47 Adventists okay this is a scholar this is a professor this is one of the most esteemed scholars okay he's making an argument ument. I want you to hear what he said, okay? He's making an argument that NISDAC has three potential definitions. That's what he's saying. And he's claiming that all three of them are what that term means. And he's using that. This is a this is an exogetical statement that he's making, a language statement. And then he's applying that as that's what we as that's the three angels message. It's NISDAC. And now remember, it all funnels through Daniel 8:14. All of it funnels through. Okay?

1:07:33 So th this is a this this is a very honest, I would say, statement of what Adventism believes, but they're using one word, even though words can mean different things. And his claim is that NISDAC that all of it, it it's a form of sedak. Okay. The King James version says cleanse. The Hebrew word is NISDAC. And he's claiming that all three of these things. It it means all of it. And then he's he's theologically applying that idea even though there's nothing in Daniel that says this that this is the special thing that we as Adventists are called to give. It's NISDAC. And it's and then

1:08:19 do you notice he said like vindication and not only of us but like because God does vindicate us that is biblical but then he asserts vindicating his own character. It's all this stuff is is thrown into um the concept without there being any exegetical proof that that's what it means. None. Now, here here's what I want to do to just to just ramp this idea up. Okay, we're at NASDAQ. Okay, now here here's one one reference, okay, that you might use for something like this. Okay. Is um

1:09:05 let's look at uh is it volume uh let's see let's look at which one here we go Old Testament. Let's look at the Hebrew. Okay. Now the item I want to look at is is is NISDAT. Okay. So this is this is the term. I want you to see it on your screen. I want you to see what I'm doing. Okay? So you understand what's happening. Okay? This word right down here. You don't have to understand all of Hebrew. You can use tools. This is the word that is

1:09:54 cleansed or restored. This word is what this particular lexicon this is a dictionary. It's the Hebrew and Aramatic Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament. So we're going and this is one of the most popular. Okay, this is um Howallet. Okay, now it doesn't just because it's popular doesn't make it right, but you're going to see how this there's there's a lot of Okay, how does it get used? Okay, you'll notice these are sedc. By the way, this connects to Melchzdc. Okay. Um just side note. Okay, you have um in in Ethiopic you have sadda. Okay, these are all cognates meaning

1:10:40 words that come from, okay? Um, but notice that this word, okay, in the manuscript of Hebrew comes about in multiple ways. Now, notice number one, now this is where I'm saying like this word can be used in several different ways. Okay? This is in the quall. It's a it's a stem in the Hebrew. Okay. The first one is to be in the right or be right. The second one is to be right. The third is to be just. All of those are inside the quall stem.

1:11:28 The next one is the nifal stem and it is brought to its justice or justified. Now notice it's highlighted red. That's because they believe that that's the right the right gloss the right semantic domain definition in context to what Daniel aid is stained. But inside of this you can have three subsets. Okay. To make someone appear right, to prove oneself upright, you can have to declare it is right. Now you can have the hif all stem and then you have another one and another one. You have and and that's where it ends. So the hif the hif stem

1:12:14 is to obtain rights for okay and there's three subsets of that and then to assist someone towards his rights. Now it doesn't take much. It just takes using resources. What did he claim? Okay notice notice what he claimed. What Dr. Richardson Richard Davidson claimed. Okay. The King James Bible. The King James Bible says cleansed. The Hebrew word for this term is Nisdak.

1:13:00 It's a form of sedok, which is the the righteousness word. It's where we get the idea of being right with. Okay. It means to put right or vindicate or be restored. Okay? Which is the reason why the NRSVU uses that and translates it instead of cleansed as to restore to its rightful position or its right state. Cleansed came in through the Greek. And most people don't know this about how cleansed appeared. Okay. the King James version, King James when it was commissioned. Okay, there's a there's the Latin Vulgate. The Latin Vulgate was

1:13:47 a translation of of Hebrew and it it stemmed from Greek through the Septuagent. Okay? And so that's the reason why the King James version gets cleansed and doesn't because it doesn't originate from the Hebrew. And that's it's not scandalous. It's that's just during King James's time when he commissioned it, the Latin Vulgate was was what was being used. And the Latin Vulgate was derived from or translated from the Greek Septuagent. I think I heard Septaggent. I think it's Septaggent, actually. Now that I'm studying Greek, I have these moments, right? I think it's Septaggent. But at any rate, so it doesn't derive from the Hebrew text.

1:14:35 That's all I'm saying. There's no scandal involved. Okay, that's just that's what happens. It's simply how translations drift over a few centuries. That's just the way it is. Okay, but I want you to notice, and we talked about this, the term, the actual term for cleansing, the verb for cleansing is in Leviticus 16. It's to her. It's an entirely different word, which is precisely why Daniel 8:14 does not use it. Okay, that's enough said about that. I just want you to see it. All it takes is actually spending some time working through the text

1:15:21 and and using our God-given brains and resources to actually work through the text itself. Now, here's the third thing I'll say about this, and it's it's the tamid. Now, the tamid, okay, is is the regular burnt offerings. So, you'll see in the text right here where it says, uh, for for long, uh, uh, for how long is, okay, then I heard a holy one speaking. Another one, uh, said to the one who spoke, how long? And then you'll notice how long is is this vision concerning what? The tamid. That's what it is. So you'll see under here this is the tamid. Okay. So when I say tamid,

1:16:07 tamid is just in English it's it's translated as regular burnt offering. King James translates it as um uh let's see in here. So they have some italis italics in here, meaning that's not that's that's not in the text. You'll see that with this dot. Okay. They atalicize things that technically don't have a Hebrew word connected to it. So, it's the vision um of the daily. The daily is actually uh the the way the King James Bible translates. The ha is an article. The tamid the um hatamid or the the daily the sac the regular sacrifice. Okay. And so that's

1:16:54 the reason why they put in concerning the daily sacrifice. So tamid is just that. Okay. Um when we look at the tamid the question if you're if you're a good biblical student you would ask well when was the tamid? When when did the tamid um take place? When did the daily sacrifice happen? Well, the tamid happened twice a day. The regular burnt offering happened in the morning and in the evening, which is the reason why you'll have some

1:17:41 translations say the 2300 evening and morning sacrifices. that that's the reason behind it. Now, here's what um here's what I want to kind of uh reference. And there's no um here's here's let me just get this up on the screen because I think it's in my logos. I didn't have a a slide per se for this. Um, let me just make sure. Yeah, here. Here we go. All right. So, let me make this a little bit larger.

1:18:28 And guys, this is just going to be a little bit more casual today. I hope you don't mind. Um, because uh where is where's the reference? Uh, yeah, there we go. Okay. So, this is on uh this is this is John Collins's commentary. Um, and this is referencing verse 14. And this is the the 2,00 um 300 evenings and mornings. And so it says this, the Tamid, that's the Hebrew word, the Tamid was offered twice a day. The reference is to the total number of sacrifices that would be omitted. Now, notice what it says next. So I'm going to read this here. The Greek and Latin versions, okay, the sept septagent

1:19:16 and the Latin Vulgate, okay, mistakenly read 2300 days that that and again that's that it's exactly what I was telling you with regards to that. Okay, 11. So how do they get 1150? Because you'll see this,50 days. Okay. The way they get to that is 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices. If you if there's two per day, so cut that number in half, it's,50. Okay? And however you parse that, I've seen some relate it to a specific calendar. Some will say, and this is true for most apocalyptic uh literature like this, it doesn't have to be identical. Um, if you think it has to be

1:20:02 very, very, very precise and it has to be that way, that's because your system is mandating that. The Adventist system mandates that the 2300 days has to precisely fit not just a year, but October 22, 1844. So they're even more specific and precise in in in their kind of way of looking at it than really the apocalyptic literature allows. It it it doesn't need to be exact. That isn't the way apocalyptic genre worked with regards to these types of prophetic interactions. Okay? Most of the time they're not really referring about future prophecy related items. That's a

1:20:49 whole another discussion. But there's a real situ again if you situate this in the henistic period. It doesn't take much to understand that we have remember we have something coming out of the helenistic period. We already saw that in the in the interpretation right out of out of the four. Okay, the helenistic period. Rome is not in sight. We know the little horn. Oh, it's Antiochus. He's the one that desecrates it when 167 BC. Then what happens? Well, you look at the history and it's very clear December uh it's December to December I think if my if my memory is right. Okay, but December 167 BC and then it gets it gets rededicated which is why we have

1:21:34 Hanukkah on December of 164. So all of this again fits. Now, I will say this. Let me just make this reference because there are some scholars that don't conclude it's 1,150 days because of the evening morning sacrifices. They still take it as 2300 whole days. There are some a couple of scholars that do that are like Golden Gay, Keel, Young. There's a few of them. Um, here's the thing. irregardless if you take it as days. Okay, you still stay in the hellistic period. There is physically no one, there's literally no scholar without outside of

1:22:22 Adventism that would ever bite on the idea that it's 2,300 years as it relates to October 22, 1844. That's again, and we went through that in the engaging Adventism series. Now, here's the fourth thing I'll say. Remember, there's four things about this. And we're slow today. I got another hour to go and we're not even through the first one. How are we going to get through 12? I always overprepare for this stuff. Now, don't forget. Okay, so let's go back to We're having fun tonight. This is great, guys. I love doing this. This is good stuff. Um, how how do Adventists, okay, when we're looking at this, you know, they make a claim, there's three previous claims we

1:23:09 already looked at, right? Now, they're going to make the claim that, hey, this this has to be days and it has to convert to years. Well, there's nothing in Daniel, friends, there is absolute, if you're if you're going to keep it in context, there is physically nothing in Daniel's context that would tell you or point you or or or nudge you towards an idea that you need to convert that now into prophetic years. What Adventists do is they then take you to

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