Ex-Banker Exposes the Biggest Wealth-Building Secret of the Rich | Lucy Chow

0:00 I definitely grew up with a scarcity mindset. Did you have aspirations to be wealthy and rich? No. Oh, no. No. Never. Never. Eileen Lee, she was an early investor in Slack. Totally made her tens of millions. How we deal with finance, we are product of our childhood. When you're not taxed, that gives you a lot more money to invest. One of the ways I am known is as an OG angel investor. The one that does take off, if it goes well, it can go very well. Female founders need to get comfortable in rooms where there are a lot of men because they're the ones that are still writing the chest. I don't gamble, but I would never bet against Dubai. If you're okay with marriage, then you should also be okay with a prenup. Someone actually told you that because you had a husband, you you didn't need a high salary.

0:47 I hope you guys are excited to get into this episode. Don't forget if you would like to purchase an investment property in Dubai, make sure to fill out the form below and book a free consultation with me. Welcome to the building wealth with no borders podcast with me lammed Elizabeth where I'll be bringing you guests from around the world to share their strategies on building wealth and today we are in Dubai with entrepreneur and senior senator of the UAE's World Business Angel Investment Forum Lucy Ciao. Thank you for having me. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here. Um we are starting a new capital series um on the podcast where we're bringing on people from you know who are in the PE space, the VC space, the angel investment space and you are our first guest on that. So I'm so excited. But for those who may not know who you are, I don't think that little line I did did you any justice. Um could

1:33 you just like introduce yourself? Sure. I was I I one of the ways I am known is as an OG angel investor because I've been here so long. So we've been here 18 years and angel investing and the whole innovation space is um a huge economic engine for the UAE now. It wasn't always. And so probably over 10 years ago, I started angel investing and it was part of a network where all the angels were women and we invested in female founders and it was quite a unique model that didn't really exist and at the time there were not many angel networks. And so fast forward to today, I'm an LP in numerous funds. I um am a

2:22 huge advocate of still getting more funding to female founders, but I also on the other hand am trying to find and encourage more women to become angels so they feel comfortable. This is a diversification right of of investing so they are comfortable investing in entrepreneurs and so we could talk more about how how one becomes comfortable being an angel. Oh, I love that. this is going to be a really good conversation and and I'm really excited to have you on the podcast um because I think you really embod New York and now you're here in Dubai. Um so I'd like to start with understanding a little bit more about your background and how you grew up. Yeah. No, I mean I came from a pretty modest background cuz I'm first

3:08 generation Canadian. So my dad was 15 when he immigrated to Canada and um worked three jobs and and you know and and and bluecollar jobs to put us through university to raise a family of three. Um and so you know we kind of touched on this earlier. I mean I did I definitely grew up you know in terms of with with relationship to money with the scarcity mindset. M uh and so you know I when you know and the path was very clear go to university get a good job work yourself up the ladder um and and that would be it right and so I never you know I always talk about the fact

3:54 that in Vancouver is not Toronto so when we talk about banking and investment banking none of that was in my lexicon because when I thought about banking I thought of a bank manager. Yeah. Right. Cuz we didn't have investment banking. I didn't even, you know, it wasn't even part of my uh sphere. Yeah. And so the same with angel investing, I would not have ever known what that was. Um but being international opens up your your eyes and it opens up a lot of opportunities. So I'm also very happy to talk about the benefits of living in low cost tax low tax environments and how that also can add to wealth. Right. Right. We're definitely going to get into that. So when you say you grew up

4:40 with scarcity growing up, what was what was that like? So I I think I'm definitely the same. Um and it would man and you know I didn't realize it till much later when I was trying to then build wealth and I was like why am I thinking the way that I am? So, for example, one of the ways that like I guess growing up with scarcity kind of affected me is at any point if I could do something myself, I would do it myself. So, if I could do my hair myself, um instead of paying for a hairdresser, I would learn how to do my hair and do it myself. Or if it's like furniture, building furniture, instead of hiring someone to build the furniture, it's like, well, I'm not paying for that. Like, I don't have money for that. Build the furniture yourself, right? And so, as I got older, I really struggled with delegating, especially if it was something that I could do myself. I can edit myself. Why would I pay

5:25 someone? I can do it myself. And so I realized that I struggled so much with that because you didn't have an abundance of money. It was like if you can do it yourself, even if it's half good, just do it cuz that means we save money. So how did it like manifest for you? Okay. I love that what you just said resonates so much because Okay, I'll tell you a very specific example and this is as a young adult and my husband and I still joke about this. Um, so when when we first started living together, we were going to buy some furniture. And I was adamant that all we needed was one side table. And so he's like, "One side table? What are we going to do? Share it? Like where's it going to be? At the foot of the bed?" So we

6:10 still joke about that because it it's still even as a as a as an adult. I don't think I wasn't that young even. Even as an adult, it still was like, but why do I want to spend more on furniture than I need to, right? So, it it it is it it it took a long time and and also investing, right? There's no sure thing. So, it was very simple for me to leave my money in the bank. So, and accumulate just money in the bank, but not deploy it to make it work for me, right? So, I I didn't have tons of money, but I probably had more money than most young adults and it was like silly because you you do need to make your money work for

6:56 you. Were your parents good savers? Did they like at least teach you that principle? Yeah. No, they Yeah, but that's all we did and and absolutely I I totally feel it's so important to be a saver. That is one value they really instilled in in us. Um and and not to gamble your money away, not not to use it frivolously, maybe like on on a second side table, you know. So like like there there Yes. And they definitely instilled that properly in us. Yeah. So you grew up with like a you know somewhat of a scarcity mindset, sort of a savings mindset. Did you have aspirations to be wealthy and rich? No. No. No. Never. Never. because it was again it was not something that I thought was in my my sphere. It wasn't uh it wasn't like I knew super wealthy

7:42 people, right? Um it wasn't like I understood what that would give me or or what that would look like, right? And so it only is like through becoming an expat and living in other countries um that I got a a a better sense of what you could do. like you could be wealthy but you could still do good with your money, right? And that's one reason to accumulate wealth, not just for yourself, but to to give back to society. So then, you know, that that was a bit of a pivot in my thinking also. I don't need to be wealthy just for me. I want to be wealthy because I want to do good with my money. Right. Right. So then, um, what made you want to go into banking or like who did you want to be? What did you want to be when you were younger? Um, an actress

8:29 actually. I wanted to be an actress, but at the time there were not many actresses that looked like me in Hollywood and they still don't. I mean, I don't know if you remember Michelle Yo when she won the Academy Award last year at the age of 60 and she was still saying that it was a struggle, right? And so, um, yeah, so that was that was nixed because my my dad's like, I'm not paying for you to go to university to study drama or theater. And um so I did an international relations degree and I kind of fell into banking. I did I I I was my very first job out of university was telemarketing and I actually feel that's one skill set that everyone should have is the ability to sell, right? Yeah. So selling as hard as

9:15 telemarketing was um taught me now we talk a lot about it you know resilience and grit those were not in in like our vocabulary at the time. Right. And I don't think I was looking to become resilient or or have grit like by doing I was just doing a job right and hopefully doing it well. Um but then I I I went and did a a program went back to school did a program that got me like it was one year academic one year overseas and the overseas my very first overseas posting was in China. Okay. And I was working for the British Columbia trade development corporation. After two years, I didn't want to stay in China. Talked to a search firm and they got me into Jardine Fleming, which does not

10:01 exist anymore. They are a mutual fund unit trust. They were probably the biggest in the world at the time. And that's kind of how I I kind of got into finance. Ah, so you kind of fell into it. I fell I totally fell into it. Totally fell into it. Yeah. What did your time in finance in general teach you about money and wealth? I feel like it really opens up a different world. Okay. I you know what was interesting was perhaps my lived experience of um having to negotiate my own salary. So it wasn't so much of okay we're in the investment bank and we're like managing all this money and all these corporates and yeah that that's educational for sure but it was more

10:46 uh because in banking the investment banking a lot has to do with your um your your your salary and then your bonus and so um it taught me a lot about inequality because I was working in banking and there was a huge inequality between female male salary levels. Um, and because we had things like bands and like I could tell I was always at the bottom of the band. Someone else in the same grade level was in a much higher level, right? Um, I got people were open about that. Did they like discuss? No. Uh, well, you can kind of find it out and the and and they definitely do not like anyone to find out. So they kept it

11:33 like a right like it was like a huge secret what the bands were and but in time like people would tell you and you would find out and piece it all together. Um, but then I and I also had the same like it's this is so sad to talk about because it's so stereotypical what I went through and the things that were told to me by my bosses and it was sort of like well you've got a husband right and you know you don't need to have the same level as him and that just sucks because I would think I was adding more value than like a particular colleague and you know to the like the question that we had earlier. I'm my own person. If I want a prenup because I'm making more money, I

12:19 want I want the prenup, right? But, you know, just these antiquated ways of viewing women in an organization taught me a lot about money. Wow. So, someone actually told you that because you had a husband, you you didn't need a high salary. Yeah. But this is not an an unusual I've heard this and I can't believe that that happened to me, but it happens a lot. Not a lot, but it happens. It happens to women. That's, you know, the first time I heard that, I had a friend um here that I met while I was working in banking. She was coming from Lebanon. Um and she was she they said that to her as well. They actually hers was the opposite. Hers was like you you I think it was like you don't have kids and stuff, so why do you need an increase in salary? But it's like why is that factoring into what I'm getting paid if I'm doing the work, right? And

13:04 they don't say that to men. Do they say that to men? They don't say that to men. Right? So it's it is very it's a very sexist way of looking at the world. How did you feel when they said that? What was your reaction? I I I realize now whenever it came to negotiation of salaries or I I just was always mad because I always felt I was on the back foot of it. I could I couldn't change my sex. I can't change who I am, right? But I could see that they just viewed me one way no matter how much I contributed, no matter how good I was in my job. So I I guess yeah, now that I'm articulating it, I think I just felt like yeah, deflated

13:50 um and and angry. What would you say to any women that might be watching this who maybe have has experienced the same thing or maybe they are going in for a negotiation sometime soon? What what advice would you give to them? Yeah. I mean, okay. So, I'm going to give the the the the the one the good advice and then I'm going to say something else. So, the good the the the practical advice is to arm yourself with, you know, to write it all down. All the things that you've done through the year. Let's talk let's assume it's an year end review and we're we're talking we're going to go in and talk about salaries and and promotions and bonuses. They can't argue with that, right? So, be factual. Make sure that through the year your boss and and don't just spring it on him or her at the end

14:37 of the year. Make sure you're documenting and you know um promoting self-promoting yourself about what you do if you're doing something well so that they they re you know that they're they're they're getting the message throughout the year, right? Um, so come armed and be pragmatic and say, you know, this is why I think I deserve this much. Okay. Um, and then and then the other more flippant answer would be to go and find an organization that appreciates you. If you're not getting paid what you know you should be get getting paid, go and find another organization. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. Um, so whilst you were

15:22 in banking, you were also doing your MBA alongside, right? Yes. What made you want to do that? I guess I I now know I'm I'm constantly curious and so I really do believe in continuous education and I think even then I probably thought it it does it can't possibly hurt to have further education and I did not do a business degree, right? And so I was like I it's anyways I just thought I would apply to this awesome program. Northwestern started Kellogg started an EMBA in Hong Kong. So it was a wonderful brand and it was a wonderful opportunity and I must have probably been and this I do actually credit my boss for supporting me. I

16:11 think I might have been one of the first people um at the bank to have taken advantage of this. So, I I don't know. I must have been reading the employee manual and and they they would pay for 50% of your higher education and I and and to his credit, my boss also allowed me to take two half Fridays off a month to go and do this executive MBA, which was very unheard of. I mean, it's not a time when there was like remote working. It was nothing like that. And especially at the time in Hong Kong and probably still now, you worked long long hours. But they approved when I got accepted, they approved to pay for 50% of of that executive MBA and to allow me to have

16:57 days um you know for 18 months to have Fridays off a month to do that degree. So that I really am appreciative of. Would you only dedicate your Fridays to it or was it like every night every No. So it was uh so what happens is you were on campus. So you lived on campus for two weekends a month. Interesting. And then of course uh so so a lot of the group work took place during that time and also the lectures because they sent in the lecturers from Chicago. So they would come in at that point. It was it was a really timeconsuming. I'm really grateful I did it. I'm grateful the company supported me and I'm grateful that at the time Ry was my fiance that he supported me. He he organized our

17:43 whole wedding. I didn't have any bandwidth to organize our wedding. So he did it all. Oh yeah. Yeah. During the time when you was That's why I'm not sentimental. See, I'm like I don't need to I don't need to organize a wedding. You figure it out. So yeah. No, he he did it all. Did you meet your husband during your We we He's Canadian also and we both met in in Hong Kong. Yeah. Okay. That's so cool. Okay. So, let's move on to investing. Right? So, a big focus of this channel is reiterating how important it is to invest, right? Especially when you're trying to build wealth. There are a lot of people who think that they can save their way to wealth building and you you don't want to do that. But a lot of the investing conversation on this channel, but I think in general as well is largely centered around investing in stocks, investing in property. Um, and angel investing is is it has similarities to

18:30 investing in stocks because you're kind of invested in a company. Um, but it's a little bit different. So could you explain to those who I'm sure there are many people who haven't heard of angel investing before what it is. Sure. It you know it's uh the earliest stage one of the earliest stages of an entrepreneurs's race. Okay. So an entrepreneur's life cycle right they they have an idea they usually should go to friends family right to get their first amount of money in. But then they would pretty quickly need to go and find angels to put into their idea because maybe they're so early they might not even have a um what's called um a functioning prototype yet. So angels invest at probably the riskiest stage of

19:17 a company because the chances of companies going bust are are very high. So that's why angels are called angels because you have to have a lot of belief in the founder and the idea and his or her ability to execute on that idea to invest in them. And so it's exciting because it's exciting to be to and a privilege to actualize and help someone realize their dream what whatever that that dream is. But of course it has to make sense to you. It has to resonate with you. It has to fit into your portfolio. So um angels invest at early stages of a company life cycle, right? So yeah, I guess that that sums it up, right? And an angel is a very early investor into

20:04 an entrepreneurs's business. It is. And and so it also means that usually you don't have to put in a lot of money because it's not like like venture capital amounts of money. However, it because it's such high risk, the chances of you losing that money is very great. So a typical angel should have about a they should have a portfolio of of like about 10 companies, okay? If they're starting off 10 companies. So you can expect through the life of that portfolio that maybe seven of those companies will go bust and maybe two will give you back your original investment. And you're really hoping one will knock it out of the park and that that's your sweet spot. that's the one that gives you back all the return that

20:50 you put in. So, it really is super super risky. I just um had the privilege of talking about four exits that that I've had I've had others. I've also had a lot of write offs a lot. Um but it really made me really and and one of the founders was in the room when I was talking about her company and it just makes me so proud. Uh, one you might have heard of actually. We just exited Little Thinking Minds. It made big news 2 weeks ago and that's that was 10 years ago. So, it took that long, right, for them to exit. Mhm. And for the original investors to get any money back. So, I I think some people will be listening and be thinking, well, I have to make 10 and

21:36 only maybe one is going to, you know, like blow up. Like, that doesn't really seem like something that I should be doing. Can you explain a little bit more about like cuz I think when when investing in companies is like the one that does take off if it goes well it can go very very very well. So I'm going to give you an example. Um Eileen Lee she's the founder of Cowboy Ventures. It's a it's a it's a well-known venture capital firm in the US. She is she was an early investor in Slack and the Dollar Shave Club. Those two totally made her and as a result that she started her own VC and to encourage more women to get into the the

22:21 habit of becoming um an LP or or an angel. Did she exit for like millions? Was it billions? Uh it probably would have been millions. Millions. Yes. Like tens of millions because when you do hit it out of the park, it can be really really big. But there's a lot of angels that that don't like, you know, they're not going to make it like like Forbes or Fortune News or whatever. But like me, I I was still very happy to have talked about those particular forexits and how important it was for those founders to have had the money at a very early stage and that someone believed in them, right? and and and some of them had

23:06 follow-on investments, right, from from me and and other angels. And so I I do I see the progress and how important it is to I I'm just a big believer that entrepreneurs are the bedrock of every economy. So if you believe that, I always say doesn't matter if you're an individual investor, a private family office, a VC, the government, sovereign wealth fund, you should allocate a portion of your portfolio to helping entrepreneurs succeed. What's the profile of of who you think would make a good angel investor? Should people wait till they're like uber successful first? Um, yeah. What's the I love that. I love that's a fabulous question. So first of all I'll say I don't think that there is

23:54 any particularly good time. It it's up to each individual when they are feel ready to become an angel. Now having said that there are two uh particular types of people that should be angels seuite executives right because they have all the knowledge they might know all the financial stuff they might know all the marketing they they but they're not necessarily the ones that are angel investors but but there are seminars and you know I I've I've been part of panels where we talk about you know and try to appeal to seuite executives to think about the next thing and the next thing can be right to help entrepreneurs

24:39 because I always say it doesn't matter you know your money is green my money is green but what entrepreneurs really need is um the support the network opening up supply channels whatever and they they depending how much you invest they sometimes give you a board seat and so if you can get a seuite exe excutive to sit on your board. That's that's awesome if assuming they aligned with your vision. Okay, so seuite executives. The other people are founders because they understand that the the how hard it was to build a business. So founders are very good angels and they tend to like to give back once they've built up their business or whilst they're building

25:24 their business, they're like, "Okay, I I have this amount of money. I'm very happy to go and support other founders." M but again I am all for the younger if we could get our girls feeling financially literate early and if they can like feel comfortable like investing like a little bit in in an entrepreneur early then that's what makes them comfortable right the earlier we start with anything the more comfortable more savvy we become as we get older and how often is there a because I know some People might be watching thinking maybe they do want to become an angel investor, but they're like, you know, I can't put in a $50,000 ticket, right? How what are the

26:10 usual entry points that you see for becoming an angel investor? Yeah. I I mean, I would say it's usually 20 to$25,000, but when we started our angel network way back, we deliberately made it low. We made it like 5,000 US. And I know other female founders um they are so keen to get female investors that they've gone down as low as a thousand US. Mhm. To to just get women feeling comfortable saying that they're an angel and saying that they have started becoming an angel. So so that that does exist, right? You can negotiate with you can you can negotiate. Yeah. Yeah. So, what are your thoughts on um angel investing as a way

26:56 to build wealth in general? It it's one of many levers. Like anything, I wouldn't only be an angel. It's important, like you said earlier, to have savings, obviously, stocks, property if you can afford that, too. It's really important to have a diversified portfolio. It is, but it is definitely one and and probably the most fulfilling component of your investing because there's a real human like in there's a human impact there. You're impacting this entrepreneur and and their growth uh and their their vision and and allowing that to to see the light of day. I love that. Okay. So, a large proportion of the viewers are going to

27:42 be in their mid20s to mid20s all the way up until like mid-4s, right? And I think one of the questions that I know a lot of people have on their mind is like, how do I get rich? People just want to get rich. I want them to tell me. Yeah, I want them to answer that question. I have that question. To give advice to your younger self, let's say she's in her early 20s on how to get rich, however you want to define getting rich, what would you say? So, I I sort of touched on it earlier where I really credit the fact that I happened and it's not like we already established I didn't know anything, you know, nothing. Um, you know, my younger self knew nothing. Um, I just happened to end up in Hong Kong with a tax rate of 15%. Right?

28:29 Versus the the country I was born in with a tax rate of 50%. Right? So that alone, right, that savings allows you to do a lot more with your money. And then we came and we ended up in Dubai where there was no tax. Not not for Canadians anyways, right? Not for the majority of people. So again, when you're not taxed, it it it that that gives you a lot more money to invest. Yeah. Okay. So that's really important. I'm really I'm a huge advocate of like going and trying out and like not just because of the savings but for the eyeopening experience of being able to work in different

29:15 countries that's really important having a broader global mindset that there's so many positives of working in another country and if you do that choose a country that has a low income tax bracket or rate and and I would say that because a lot of The people that I I meet who move here. When you have when less of your money goes towards taxes, a lot of them feel like they can risk a bit more, like they can do things. Like I have a friend who runs a tech company here and it's like, well, if I can save a lot more of my money, which I need to be able to run a tech company, then I'm able to take that risk. But if I'm in a country where 50% is already going towards taxes, that's 50% that I can't put towards trying to make this startup work, right? So that that also really really impacts it. So we are seeing a lot of entre young young entrepreneurs

30:01 um moving to Dubai to build their companies. How important do you think an external environment or a country is um for the success of starting a company? It's really important. It's super important. Um so for a few reasons someone the the the Aussies have a fabulous term um tall poppy syndrome. M and so if here it it no one's going to say oh you know you're dreaming that's never going to happen and why you know no one ever is ever going to dampen your enthusiasm for growth and for for for financial growth personal growth be because everyone else has that mindset of you know oh you know it's fabulous

30:47 this is also why we're here so so very specifically the the environment of a country like the UAE, as someone brought this up and said it really well yesterday, it's not the government's not political. It's not political. What it is is it's visionary. So good governments should should set the vision and then private sector follows. Right. Right. And we're private sector. We see the vision. We're here. That's why so many people are coming here. I think there 80,000 like this first quarter, right? Um relocated here because we're like, okay, we see the vision. If we somehow align with that vision, whether it's a startup idea or a

31:34 career or whatever, then we're going to also succeed, right? So, so where you are entirely influences the outcome of of your future and your mindset and how big you dream. If you're enjoying this content, please don't forget to hit the like button and subscribe. And if you would like to become an international property investor in Dubai or in the UK, the link to book a free consultation will be in the description box below. If you're not quite ready to invest yet, check out the affordable video courses that will also be linked in the description box below. And if you would like to relocate to Dubai, set up your business in Dubai, or anything else related to relocating to Dubai, check out ww.theprofessional network.com. Yeah, it's so true. And people always ask me like, what is it about Dubai that

32:20 people love? I'm like, even if you just go to like I don't know what museum or something it is that I went to and I saw what Dubai looked like 30 years ago and what it looks like now. and you realize that that was someone's vision and that person is still here today. It's like it's insane. Like the city in and of itself, the way it has developed and the way they're so intentional about like it's almost run like a like a business, right? And so that being surrounded by that and then not to talk of because it's a a a place where the majority of people are are expats. People here, the majority of people you meet have left somewhere else to come here. So they already have an interesting story because they've abandoned their home and they've come here to try and do something better for themselves, right? And you don't find that all the time. So the the ecosystem here, I would just say like the people that you're surrounded with, the city in and of itself, it

33:06 really does force you to to dream bigger. Yes. I love that. I love that. And and and I told you earlier that I don't gamble. So but I would never I would never bet against Dubai. Yeah. It it's it's just visionary and it and it pulls everyone with with its vision. Yeah. Yeah. I hear a lot of people who there are so many people who want to relocate to Dubai. Um and people often ask me like what are the gaps in the market where I could start a business? Um do you have any insight on that? Okay. I mean probably I don't know probably less gaps now but I still hold on to one thing I always do tell entrepreneurs because there's always this worry about being a copycat but al

33:52 so so many awesome businesses have been started here because there was an expat that saw something missing here that they could get back at home right I don't care maybe it was a cookie I don't care whatever it was right or service, they brought it here. So, so or you know, someone already has like a fidget, right, that they put together, but you've got a a better idea to improve that fidget. That's okay. Yeah, that that is absolutely okay cuz um what was someone that used the example of like um the iPod, you know, how many iterations of of of the like storage of music was there before the iPod became a reality? It's it's okay. There there is enough to

34:39 go around there. There is an enough that you know, you just stick to your your lane and your knitting, right? If you've got that vision and that idea, go for it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what you said is so is so important as well because um again another question that we often get is um I get to people is like how do I build wealth with no borders? Where do I start? And I always say like travel like if you actually travel and visit new places you will start to like you're saying you will start to identify different things and that's where the ideas come from. I can't tell you yeah go there and definitely start a clinic or definitely do this. You just go go and experience stuff and the ideas will start coming to you. Yeah. No, I love that. You're you're absolutely right. And how many businesses started because someone found

35:24 something on on their travel that they loved whether it was uh you know a service or actual product and decided that it was needed here in the UAE. Right. Yeah. Agree. Exactly. So I have two final questions before we move on to the next section. And the first one is so obviously we were speaking a lot about angel investing. You're an angel investor. also involved in angel investing networks. How does a founder or an entrepreneur become someone that an angel is like oo I want to invest in that person you know uh so we talk a lot about personal branding now whether you hate that term or you love that term it's our reality so as a founder you need to start increasing your profile how do you do that you have to increase your network right and um one of the

36:12 things I I realize we really need to talk a lot about is that female founders need to get comfortable in rooms where there are a lot of men because they're the ones that are still writing the checks. They're the majority still and they need to start cultivating those those relationships so that because it usually takes a while for an angel to uh develop a um um a vision and a trust with a founder. So, so you need to start networking, right, with male and female angels, right? Okay. or VCs what whatever but you but and the one way to do that is to take the opportunity if someone invites you on a podcast then go

36:59 as and and start talking about your company whether and then if you maybe if you like to write start writing like blogs start start really like writing on LinkedIn um start um you know finding a space for yourself where you can talk about, you know, your your subject matter expert, your subject matter expertise. Um, it's really important to it it's really important to have a network. It's also really important to build up your own personal profile. I think that those are two very strong things. The funny thing is you actually touched on what my next question, which was was going to be, which is how do women get comfortable how did you get comfortable navigating male dominated

37:45 spaces? So I think for me um I grew up with three brothers. So I don't think I realize how much that has actually impacted me because I don't and I have other friends who um grew up with majority sisters and maybe also went to a female um only school for a majority of their lives and I find that they find navigating male spaces a lot differently and maybe a little bit more challenging. Whereas because I've grown up with brothers, like I just feel like men like like I'm just like these are like they're not like I don't know some people see men as intimidated. They see them as I don't know if it's better than them or what. But growing up I'm just like me. Going into like people ask me like oh um you know you worked in investment banking like how does it feel? It's male dominated. It's like I was like I looked at my team I was like

38:30 oh yeah they are majority men. I'm like I actually forget about it sometimes. But I think I I I feel like a part of it is because I've grown up with it. So it's like h whatever. Um but I don't know if if what your experience was and if any advice you could give. Yeah. No, I mean I guess working in maledominated spaces makes you very comfortable very quickly with interacting with men. But I liked what you said. It's just normalizing the interaction, right? You it and and and maybe this is part of uh the divide that we're we're getting. I I I do and I've been part of many female networks, but we do need to make sure we invite men into these networks, right? Um we we can't and and I don't think

39:18 there's an intention to exclude them, but I guess the minute you slap the word, you know, woman or female onto, you know, an organization, then it then it then it is it is exclusionary by by the name. But then as you know, if you're the if you're part of the executive committee or whatever, you need to make sure you invite the men in. And and so I I I think you just you just have to get out there and and start interacting and start feeling comfortable. I I Yeah. I mean, that doesn't that doesn't sound very helpful at all. It really doesn't. No, but I I think it you just you just have to go into those spaces. And I'd say know your know your stuff because I think sometimes with men where maybe women can start to feel like

40:04 uh maybe shrink themselves a little bit is sometimes like they will use certain jarens or stuff like that that you and I don't know if this is not all men right but sometimes just in certain circles people will use certain terminology that are very high level let's say and that can kind of exclude other people whereas you could just say I don't know what a good example is but there would be a very basic way of saying it but then you could use like the super finance terminology, right? Like I'm working in investment banking. There are so many terminologies we give to stuff that it's like this is just we could just say this but we say something else, right? Um so knowing your stuff is is I think will give you a lot of confidence. Um because then even if they are speaking in their jargon, you kind of know you kind of understand a little bit more. But I think getting around um men and going into these spaces with the confidence of

40:49 what you know about what it is that you're doing or about the space in general um that I feel like that would help. Yes. I I love that. So I think that gives uh comfort too, right? Then you can feel okay, I know my stuff or I know this, therefore I belong here. And it's like we shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't be, you know, having that that other thought in our head that, oh, maybe I don't belong here, right? We got to we got to push through those mental barriers that we put up for ourselves sometimes. Yeah. And I and I actually remember being in in in finance, working in banking and and being in maybe predominantly male teams and I was like, you guys actually need me. you need like when it comes to like just certain

41:35 things that like I don't want to be stereotypical but there will be certain things that let's say it's like someone's birthday right like the guys might not remember and I'll be the one to be like guys we have to put money together you know or like when it was our Christmas um like just like Christmas festivities and stuff and I was like what would you guys do without me like you actually need me to do certain stuff not only can I do everything that you guys can do cuz we all do the same job but then I also bring something additional the EQ also yeah you actually need me so I think you also have going like sometimes that difference that you're so scared about is actually what makes you powerful and if you can like just assume that um you can go a long way with that. Yes, I love that. And I think we realize that we need the diversity in corporations and you know we're talking about investing. This is an investing show. You know the

42:22 next generation of investors, that's what they're demanding, right? Gen Z wants an equitable workplace. They want diverse voices. um whether it's in the seauite or in the boardroom wherever it's it's really important to to include everyone right yeah okay so we are going to be moving on to the wealthy segment which is where one of the listeners sends in their dilemma and they just want to get your opinion on what you think they should do okay um and if you guys are listening and you want to send in your dilemma anonymously the link is in the description box okay so I'm going to read this person says I'm getting married next year I'm the higher earner and recently started investing in property with plans to build serious wealth I brought up the idea of a prenup and my f and my fiance said it's unromantic and makes it seem like I'm planning for divorce. Now I'm secondg

43:07 guessing myself. What are your thoughts on a prenup? Yeah, I guess it depends on obviously it's up up to the couple and you know um women now do have a lot of wealth and it's uh you know I I don't know that anyone would necessarily always question a man if he asked for a prenup and there's a bit more seemingly push back if a woman asks for a prenup but if she feels that that's what makes her comfortable then I I think she has to go she has to go with that and then she has to gauge the reaction uh that she's getting and it's it's not romantic. No, it it's not meant to be romantic. It's a legal agreement uh between two people just like

43:52 marriages. That's also a legal agreement. So, if you're okay with with marriage, then you should also be okay with a prenup. Oh, that's interesting. I like that. Yeah. Not romantic me. It's not romantic, but I think there are certain things that you just it's like it's like you don't want to die early, right? But people still tell you to do your will, right? Because just you just never know. That's right. So, I think I I I get it and I get why a partner might feel like why are you already thinking about the exit, but at the same time, you just never know. No. And and my husband will tell you anyways that I'm like the non-s sentimental one. So maybe I'm like the totally the wrong person to ask if you wanted a a a you know I'm being fair pragmatic, right? I mean things happen and people's lives evolve

44:40 and they change and and yeah, I I think good for her for for asking for it. You know, she's she wants to make money, she said. So and anyways, I just Yeah. And it's and it's the prenups are usually for what happens before marriage, right? or I don't really know how they work, but I'm assuming it it just means that it should you divorce typically this is very like making it very u encapsulating it really short that that typically what belongs to her belongs to her, what belongs to him belongs to him. Um and it's I don't know if it's necessarily just the assets that you bring in before marriage. I think you can add to it. It could be as you're building wealth, right? If you divorce, what she brings in is still what and what she made

45:26 during that marriage is hers. Yeah. And I think some sometimes I I like I think there are some things that I agree are unromantic, but sometimes just the things you've experienced growing up can just make you want a certain level of security, right? Okay. So, I love what you just said because we are a product how we deal with finance. We are a product of our childhood. Exactly. Right. So, I think you know that you've probably had many people tell you like if you you grew up with a scarcity mindset, then that's that's how you treat money as an adult. It's not the healthiest mindset. Um, but it takes a long time to uh, you know, to to roll back, you know, what what you thought was right growing up. Yeah. So, so, so same thing. Um, yeah, maybe she saw that

46:13 her parents divorced and it was nasty. Or I mean we know we all know people that have had that happen, right? Absolutely. And so and actually if I really do reflect on it, I've had both, right? Welloff men, welloff women, you know, not a good divorce. It really would have helped if they had prenups. It really would have made it a lot cleaner. Yeah. And I I remember talking to this I don't know who I was having this conversation with, but you always think you know someone until you end up in a really sticky situation like a divorce. And then some people who you would think, oh, you know, like I'm just guessing, right? But like you might think that person in the context that you know them in now would split things evenly or split things in a way that makes sense. But when you're in a sticky situation like getting a divorce, you don't know what that person's going to be like. And I could tell you some

46:59 horror stories where you you would think that and in this case and I'm not saying I'm not blaming only the guys cuz the this goes both ways but in this particular situation you know you nicest guy you would have totally thought if they even if they didn't have an amicable divorce that he would want to take care of the kids does not want to take care of the kids doesn't want to give a single scent you know to the kids or or the wife for that matter you you know, um, yeah, that, you know, reorggaged their home without her knowing about it. Really kept her in the dark about their finances and as a result has left her in a dark place. Yeah. So, these things are important, right? Okay, cool. We're going to now on

47:45 that sunny note. Okay, cool. Uh, all right. That's great segue to the next section which are three um quickfire money questions. I'll just be asking you three questions and just share whatever comes to your mind. So the first question is what is the best investment you've ever made? Probably anything related to my own personal development. So I I'm just going to say the executive MBA. Yeah. Why? Yeah. Because it gave me the confidence, right, and the terminology. um um and the background to feel comfortable navigating um different business scenarios. It was coincidental, but every new um course I

48:33 was taking, I was able to apply back at work. It it just was and I guess that's what current up-to-date programs should be. They should be teaching you what's current in the workplace and then you should be able to add value by applying it to your work. M so I like that I and I met amazing people. So your network again goes back to the network. Um the a lot of people decide on where they do do their MBA based on oh am I going to get the right network. Now they know they need to be looking at that also. Yeah that's so interesting because actually quite a few guests who have done an MBA have cited their MBA as as a really good investment. Yeah. See that's great. Yeah that's great. Okay. So the next one is what is the biggest money mistake you've

49:20 made? Uh so I was very reluctant to manage my own money and so when I first started earning money as a as a young working professional I I g I gave it to a money management company and you know they would be switching out my money from here to there and and as you know when they switch they take a percentage and my my money never built like it did. I I must have left it with them for 10 years and it just never went anywhere. So, and I that was because I was thinking I was giving it to the professional managers, but they were just doing this bait and switch thing, you know, I'm going to move it out of this stock into that stock

50:06 and I wasn't paying attention like I wasn't cuz because I was so deathly afraid of money, right, and managing it myself and I was like, I'll leave it to the professionals. Wow. How much do you think you lost by doing that? Oh, I I Oh, I don't know. Like, you know, like maybe a few hundred thousand. Wow. Yeah. I really honestly I mean it should have grown a lot more seriously and like I left it with them for like 10 years and then I think I kept giving like some more money to them to manage. Um so it was Yeah, it was just silly. What made you finally pull the plug on that? Um, I guess I just realized I I was like, "Okay, this is enough." Like, you know, they they are totally not adding value at all. Um, and I think part of it was

50:54 also because I was going to move countries, so I thought I'll I'll pull it out anyways. I could have continued using them from another country, but I was I just knew you could do better by yourself. Exactly. Have you been managing your money yourself since then? Um my husband actually is a very good money manager and so on the angel investing and LP all that that's me. Um and he is more like the stocks. Okay. He's he's totally the stocks guy. Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Um and then the last one is what is one piece of advice you'd give to someone who is trying to build wealth globally? I'll go back to what I said earlier and that is to take a chance to look

51:39 at relocating to a place because unless you're going to you know unless you're going to have a big windfall or you're going to ramp up drastically your salary levels or or it it's really hard to make additional money, right? if if you don't go somewhere where you're lowering your tax base. So, you know, especially if you come from countries that are awesome, they're going to always be there. You know, you should strike out, give it give it a try in a different geography and then you can always go back. Yeah. I I I like that because one of the I I I typically usually say like the three biggest

52:26 expenses that most people will have in their lifetime is food, transportation, and housing. But I actually forgot taxes. Taxes is probably might even be bigger than all three of them. Especially if you're in somewhere like Canada or the UK where your tax rate can go up to, you know, 40 45% 50% plus. That is a huge expense that you take on for a very long time that if you could just and even if you can just take that back for 10 years and then you go back the amount you can save in those 10 years and reinvest that into you know whatever it is angel investing property reinvesting it into yourself even just reinvesting it into your ability to explore see different things that can make a huge difference on your ability to to build wealth. Yeah. And you know, I guess I just want to come out and say uh we talked about how I grew up with a

53:13 scarcity mindset. I'm now sitting in front of you talking from a place of privilege. So I want to make sure that your your listeners and viewers understand that not everyone can leave their home country and there are many people that would give their eye it to be a Canadian and they should because it's an amazing country. And so I'm I'm not saying this advice is for for everyone and there would be people that would be like give me the Canadian citizen citizenship. I'll be happy to pay the 50%. Um, I'm I'm just saying if you if you're in a situation where you can and you can move to another low tax

53:59 base country, then that that just is one lever to to push for wealth building, right? Yeah. No, it it makes sense. And and I think one thing that um I always say as well is that when it came to like our parents, I think your parents would be similar just that they migrated to Canada. my um grandparents actually um had my mom in the UK. They were doing that at that time because they were doing the similar sort of thing. Going to the UK, going to Canada was going to be a massive booster for them um and the children that they were going to have in terms of building wealth. They did that. So if you are then already in those places, they have already made that big jump and you for some people you won't be able to make as big of a jump by staying. Sometimes that big jump is going to come by you doing exactly what your parents did and thinking, okay,

54:45 where's the best place to go for me to be able to build wealth? Maybe it's staying where you are, but for some people it will be going somewhere else. So, yeah, I think that's a great um place to wrap up the podcast. So, where can they find you if they wanted to become an angel investor? In fact, um I'm always very active on my LinkedIn. Anyone can can message me um or they can send me an email lucythelements pluralgroup.com. Okay. Yeah, I'll put that in the description. Okay, that's awesome. Thank you so much, Lucy. Thanks for having me. I'm really enjoyed our conversation.