Historic Barelwi–Deobandi Debate in the UK | Full 4K Recording

0:00 Or we can do whatever whoever >> it's up to you. It's totally up to you because then it's good for >> I'm easy. >> Are you sure? >> Saves us from getting up and getting down. Like we can just stay there and whatever. >> Take care if you want to. >> What do you think? >> I think let's keep it in the middle because >> in his time it's up to him. It's totally up to you. >> But is it going to is the camera going to cover as well? Yeah. Stay where we are. >> What's this? >> All right. Okay. So, should we just stay on our sides and just carry on? Is that okay? >> Yeah. I mean, if you I might go in the middle. I'm not sure. >> I say move the tables a bit closer. >> No, no. You know, the books all going to start falling. Looks >> You know what? It's fine in the middle. >> Just fine. Yeah. Yeah. >> No problem.

0:46 >> Starting here. Yeah. You did say five max. >> Yeah. You know the extra people can remove them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally five. >> If you just keep Five and the rest we just think whoever three more you choose just keep

1:34 four and the rest we'll have to leave. >> Will we need a moderator to keep the time one person? >> We've got two moderators. They'll both so them two brothers are moderating the time. >> You got two extra people. >> These two are on the cameras. There's three here. >> Is that okay? Okay. And what about the rest have to leave then? Just tell them then. >> Oh, they come with you. >> Uh brothers, you know what? Whoever's extra people will have to leave then. Are you staying? >> No, but it's not up to me though. >> Yeah. Two people need to leave. >> There's three. >> Maximum five. >> There's two there. >> No, no. One minute. One minute. One minute. How many? We've got We've got six

2:20 >> extra five besides them. So which who's going to live after leaving? Honestly, >> no. No, you can't you can't one of only one people need to leave in it. >> We have one one more person leaving as well. Then what are we going to keep one person? >> I think you know it's 5:00. We need to get started in it. Sharp >> 501 now. >> Should we start? >> Yeah. Yeah. Just a minute. Let's keep to the conditions. Even last time the conditions were broken. >> Don't break any conditions. >> No, we don't we don't want to break any conditions then. >> Let's not break any but the person will have to leave. We on the >> because we can still you can still message. He can

3:05 >> whatever. >> I'm sorry. It's just we have to tell so many people. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get it? >> If you need to pass anything. >> Okay. Let me know when to start then. I started recording. No, they have >> brother. You know is you're causing a bit of a sin. Can you please go? >> We don't have six. >> Damn. >> I'm ready. [clears throat] Alhamdulillah.

4:20 After praising Allah and sending peace and blessings upon our master, his companions, his family, his wives, we ask Allah to make this debate a means of reaching and establishing the truth >> and a means of uniting us upon on the hak and a means of admitting whatever is wrong for the sake of Allah and uniting upon what is right for the sake of Allah. Just to give a little bit of background before I start. There was a time when I was making regular videos about the obundis and the obundi elders and the statements which they made in their books. But recently I did re re-release some

5:06 older clips and it was only when the al-Islam productions team called me out for a dialogue that I made a fresh video i.e. new one addressing them addressing their elders after a number of years. Anyhow, I would just like to mention one thing that if any scholar has made a mistake, whether it is kufur, whether it's misguidance or any mistake, then for us as an ummah, we should accept whatever is wrong and move on and try to unite upon whatever is right. May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala put baraka in this and allow us to establish the truth inshallah. Moving on to the subject of

5:54 discussion the work by Mulvi Kasim Nanoti. In this work there are a number of passages in which there is the denial of the finality of prophethood of sayam. In the beginning of this book, he writes or he says, "So in the the thought the

6:39 of the lay persons, common people, the messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam Him being it means that his z era is after the era of previous prophets and that he is the very last prophet. Then he says then he says however the people of understanding it is enlighten it is a rsh upon them i.e. they understand that being first or being last in terms of error intrinsically there is no excellence in this

7:33 Then he says in a place of praise the verse but he is the messenger of Allah and the last of the prophets to say how can it be then how can it be correct to say that this verse denotes upon last prophet. Then he says, "However, if you say his quality of praise, this quality, this quality of being last

8:20 is not a quality of praise." And that this M is not a M of praise. Then being last in terms of error, then it can be then it can be done. So okay. So basically what Kasimna Noti is mentioning here is being first or being last is not an intrinsic quality is not a bizar facil there's nothing of excellence here whereas the verse that is a place of praise for suham now

9:06 because these two things are opposites he's effectively saying it is mu it is impossible. The prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam being last and this verse is a place of praise. The prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam being last is not a matter of praise. Therefore this verse cannot mean that the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is the last prophet. Then furthermore when he mentions

9:51 He says, "Yes, if we say that this verse is not a mam of mud." Yes. If it is not a of then the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam his being in terms of last being in terms of last in in error then it will be correct for that meaning to apply in this verse but because these two things are opposites then that cannot be the case. Then furthermore in another passage in this same nas he mentions on [clears throat] a in another huh.

10:45 He says rather if for instance him sallallahu alaihi wasallam his zanna his era in his era if there is another prophet right or anywhere if there is another prophet then his it remains intact. So even if there is another prophet anywhere else during the time of lifetime of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam then his his finality remains intact. Now anyone listening to this will realize and see that this does not make sense logically that how can theat the finality of

11:32 sallallahu alaihi wasallam remain intact when there is another prophet at the same time somewhere else. Yes, in his finality will be affected if there is another prophet somewhere else. Then in another mam he also mentions others. He says if for instance after the era of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam any prophet is born then even still the finality of Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam will not be affected.

12:25 So he says this is even if the other prophet is during his era on and in in this world or if we say for instance he is in another world. Yes. On another zamine then. So basically he says even if we say that we do tajis of a ni being in this zam or another zam during the lifetime of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam or after his era even then the muhammadi the finality of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam is not affected. Now again if we look at this logically this does not make sense.

13:12 If another prophet is born today or after the era of the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam then common sense he the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam no longer no longer remains the last for the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam to be the last no other prophet can come on this zam or any other zamine after him sallallahu alaihi wasallam so therefore these statements are wrong and even these statements taken alone each of these statements is kufur and we ask Allah that he gives us refuge from making such statements and defending them. Don't start the time until I start. Alhamdulillah.

14:04 Respected brothers, sisters, elders, I've got a lot to get through and there's very less time. So, I will be speaking a bit faster. Um, Mui Shahid has already conceded that the fatwa of Ahmed Rahan was wrong because he's fled from the fatwa. The wording of the fatwa, the order of the fatwa, he has not made any mention to. Firstly, the crux of the issue is that the man who split this ummah of Allah wasallam is Ahmed Razahan al-Beli. Now, we need to go into this and I need to give some introduction. I am not fleeing from anything he said. I've noted them all down. and what he said in his first speech. I swear by Allah, I will prove Ahmed Zakan Kafir and him kafir through

14:50 his own speech. So bear that in mind. I've got his points. Listen carefully. First and foremost, I have with me here because he's been making claims outside that Islam is the one who opened the doors of Kadani's claims for prophethood. Let me make very very clear and I've mentioned this beforehadi. I am yet to see him refute Ahmed Raza Khan. I am yet to see in his books and I have his books. Refute Ahmed Razakhan. Why did he not refute him? Why did he not mention him? If he has, please show me. Because he was a nobody. He had no

15:36 status. To lie. He had to go to the haram. People go to the form and I and he had to go there to lie in Ahmed Khan had to travel to Makarman to lie. But the interesting thing here is volume 13 page number 95 we have a mention where he speaks about the books in his library and one of the books is just like he also had inbas of now my brothers how come

16:23 did not deduce and derive and come to the same conclusion of denial of finality of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam's chronological order the way with the way Ahmed Rahan did the reason being is the man who is claiming prophet himself he was using verses of the Quran he was using hadith to prove his point he was using obviously wrongly he was using people like and great people of this um Malik Yet how come he had this book and he did not come to the same conclusion that uh um Ahmed Rahan came? The reason being my brothers is Ahmed strong together three incomplete sentences. I repeat strong

17:10 together three incomplete sentences to come to a conclusion and to misguide and deceive the of let me explain right. First and foremost my brothers, what he did was [clears throat] that he in some places he brought the sh which is known as a condition. You have like if you invite me to your house I will come. So if you invite me to your house is a condition. I will come is the jaza is called the consequence. What a rahan did is in the first instance he brought the middle passage of the book brought only a for example if you come to my

17:55 house no jaza number one string it together with other passages of a book firstly so my brothers I'm going to go into depth on the actual issue but for now I want to explain to you what kind of a man Ahmed was and what kind of fanatics these people are in taking him as a big man kadyani I've just proved to you that he had in his library. Never did he and if he did show us not the people after because their idea was from Ahmed he was a facilitator a formed Kadani whether Bill was or I request the in this debate who are listening at home please make notes because you will learn a lot inshallah. Now my brothers next

18:42 these people almost see Ahmed Razakhan as close to infallible right close to infallible. Let me give you a few quotes on this. I have here right the um Ahmed S Kazmi what does he write? He writes that Allah made it impossible impossible for the tongue tong and the pen of Ahmed to air. Bring me jal quickly. Yet in is mentioned before can do a major sin. So for a nabi

19:29 they claim a major sin and if I'm wrong please you pull me open any reference I'll give you but because of the time you know I might not be able to open the book at that time right so now before this book he can I'm not I'm not commenting on it I'm saying according to their own principle where Ahmed cannot air but before can fall into a major sin next This is Ahmed Kazmi this is exactly what he said and if you dispute this I'll quote it from others now I can mention it from many other places like the of etc but I want to move on because of timing my brothers [clears throat] let's make very clear that if the issue

20:17 is fatwas if the issue is fatwas because he's not mentioned the I'm shocked I am actually shocked why has he not referred to the fatwa of the so-called 33 scholars from Haram. I'm ready for this. I was wanting this. I want a debate with some meat or the bone. Not coming here and giving a passage. I want you to go back to the man who started the how did he string these sentences together. If you're looking at the issue of the then I'm going to follow that up. So you first quote that then I will tell you what the status of the of the haram is and what their fatwa means. Next my brothers as for the era of Ahmed there were people like um

21:04 right it's mentioned here in fat because remember this issue and guaranteed you will have looked at the book of for and what does he mention he mentions that this is connected taking the leads to two issues number One problem with what a problem with the of which is a mah which has happened in the time of you caught him a lot. So in Mustafa this he you know the the the issue of can Allah is it possible for Allah to create a like of he was of the opinion of no it is not under the is not of Allah

21:51 subhanahu wa ta'ala was of the opinion Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala can but will not so it's not going to be and occur but Allah can now he issued a fatwa on shel and his fatwa wording was same as the wording of Ahmed whoever doubts he's also become a kafir so the reason why shahid didn't give me salam when he walked in is because he feels he can become a bit different it's a bit dynamic I feel he's left a bit of but anyway by all you know whatever the case he issued this fatwa yet ahmed he has on al

22:37 of bad and fuzuli in this book but time is not allowed to keep opening pull me up he mentions shahid died upon all his and he did he insisted upon them and he didn't doa in the footnotes also acknowledges this he does not refute this yet yet yet the beauty of the issue is Ahmed Raan after quoting all types of kufur what you know in his mind what he claims to be kufur for example he attributes to shai that according to him Allah can do the following things can eat can drink relie relieve himself self with stool he can urinate he can stop hearing stop seeing drown in the ocean burn in fire lay on

23:24 soil be restless be a wahhabi be a rafidi do HIS OWN NIKAH HAVE sex put his semen in a woman's vagina cause his own earth. Now my brothers, why did Ahmed Raan not do of a man who he claims himself? And I have the references. He was more hostile to Islam than the most hostile of the pundits and the most hostile of the priests. So the man who did all these swears, you failed to do him even though you have a hash on first bad's book, he's saying he did not do. So now what happens? >> You become kafir yourself.

24:18 When does my time start when I start? Yeah. So just to follow on from the previous speaker I must say that it's an awful lot of digression from our actual topic of dispute going back to the actual issue which is nas the book by so I would just like to mention he quoted hamul haram the fatwa which was given against the elders of the oband and endorsed by 33 of the leaders leading scholars of the Arab world in Makama and Medina. Now that fatwa in fact what Allah hazah presented to the scholars of Haram Sharif was a culmination of numerous

25:04 reputations against your bundy scholars by major scholars in the Indian subcontinent. If you're not aware, then perhaps you should dig a little deeper and do some research that Imm Ahmed wasn't the first person to refute Kasimna Noti for denial of finality or prophethood. Scholars prior to Allah hazat from around India also refuted Kasimna on his creed of denial of finality of prophethood. Amongst them there was um the work now first of all Tazir Nas was written in uh 1872. Yes. So Tazir Nas was written in the

25:49 year 1872. Then there was another work I will go into them in detail inshallah. Then Jal by which was authored in 1874. Then there was alsoistas by written by Shehikh Muhammad Tanui a student of Isak Delui that was endorsed by many ulama of hind also. Then there was a galata I believe kistas was written around 1878. So this was very early in the 1870s. Then around the year 1881 or sobal another work which was refuting the kufur of nas endorsed by scholars of

26:35 badun rampur delhi and elsewhere from around India basically now imam abdul laknavi rahimah also endorsed this fatwa in ibal yes he authored previous works which the the Obandi tried to use in favor of if you got that green one of Laknavi here is yeah so I have here Majmi now one of these is published at the back of the NAS yes now it is used they say that Im Abdul Laknavi supported Kasim Na in his belief this is incorrect

27:21 what he mentioned mentions at the beginning of which was just mentioned by the other speaker IM Abdul says I followed in this a which was which was moderate how he says I didn't follow the nor of two extremes. One was on one side and one on the other side. Then he explains the author of Abbas which was the [snorts] foundation of the work. He says there was a a group which

28:09 negated this report altogether. He said and this group they said that this was weak that it was fabricated and so on and it was basically invalid. Then there was another group which inclined towards strengthening this by looking at its its chain of narration. bit of facad he said and this group explained explained this in such a way which led

28:54 towards facad yes so he's mentioned another group who delved into the of ibn abbas and went towards facad okay now I will ask the uh our fellow speaker to elaborate on this who was Imam Abdul referring to here which group explained this of and went towards destruction. He says I am not happy with either this group nor that group. So he was very neutral at this time. Okay. Now remember was written in the 1870s but this was before I abdi retracted this this stance of his. Why?

29:40 Because he endorsed which I will read passages out of and see that that stance was a total reputation of then he says but I chose a path in between these two groups. He says before this I have authored a work that clear signs upon the existence of prophets you know in different realms. Okay.

30:29 That the repelling of uh waswas uh whisperings regarding the of Iban Abbas them were two previous risalas that he had written when he was pro for this of Iban Abbas. So they were earlier now this work later which he wrote the zadras now he came towards the middle yes then intalia in endorsing that he rejected that previous stance of his. So that establishes his position. He's not in support of that the previous two they were in Hindi. He mentions Hindi or rather

31:15 and he says this third that I have drawn this is in the language of Jenna the language which is Arabic. And then furthermore in the same when he mentions about prophets existing in other realms what does he say? He says he says that it is not possible. That was a question. The question in a question it was asked that if there are the questioner is asking about existence of prophets in other realms. Yeah. So the questioner is saying if there are prophets which exist in the other earths like the seven seven earths. If there are prophets existing

32:01 in other earths now there are three possibilities. Either those prophets can be befoream during his lifetime or they can be after him. In response to this question, Im Abdi he says he says without doubt that the second possibility is invalid. It is false. What was that second possibility? that a prophet comes after he says because it is established in his place that he sallallahu alaihi wasallam

32:46 is the last of prophets in absolute terms i.e. There can be no prophet whatsoever in any shape way shape or form in any realm after him sallallahu alaihi wasallam. What is this? that of Amy Afraad all the afra of ambia all the individuals within that genus ofatam they are included here that all of them when the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is for all of them none of them can ever come after so having this at the end of serves no purpose whatsoever so we've seen prior to Allah hazat also refuted

33:32 I mentioned the names of those threeall inshallah I will go into detail in them furthermore he mentions that the three statements in haram were basically a lie from Allah hazat I immedi was very generous to I have found numerous kofur statements in Allah hazat only mentioned three and gave a summarized translation giving a summarized translation is not a lie like for instance if I was to say I am going to meet Osman and Abdul Haleem tonight right and then I can say it in another way I am going to meet them at 5:00 p.m. which is night technically after both both statements are not both statements are conveying a similar meaning it will not be a lie that's the point you

34:17 understand it's not a lie if I say for example I'm meeting so and so in the morning or I say I'm meeting him at 9:00 a.m. It's not a lie. Allah hazat only conveyed the meaning and that was correct. He didn't distort in Husam. Take your box this up. So once again um unfortunately Mi Shahid has moved away from he now has come on to so basically he's given us another principle. The principle is if you accept the of the verse

35:04 under this if you accept his then what happens he's he's kind of implying that you become a so let me show you this from the of IM which has the gradings of imi So we have here volume four right and this is in im brings this with his seven earths in every earth. Ani like your Adam like

35:52 Adam like Ibraim like Isa [clears throat] says this hadith is Bkari and Muslim have not taken it. Bkari and Muslim have not brought this hadith. But is next another hadith in the same book he brings from Abbas with a different chain going up to Abu Dha. Abu Da was there as well. In every in every earth there is a like of Ibraim.

36:40 This one the says this hadith is on the conditions of Bkari and Mmuslim but they have not brought this. So if bringing a hadith and calling it like their elders have mentioned has also mentioned this. This is in if you want the reference I'll give you this reference mentioned that if you take this this remember the of they do not just whack out the statements of Sahabah like this. We are not sh we are not rafid you your have a similarity with the raid which we're going to explain in many things inshallah really this debate should be over about a week 5 hours a day then I can do justice there's too much to mention

37:26 I don't want to open but the same thing is mentioned a few chains next is the greatest commentary of uh He mentions he says and then he goes all the way to and he says this is how he's brought it in his he brought this in a brief way and he says so is also calling this and according to the principles which I can mention to you numerous scholars if you accept this

38:14 not only the even the if you take this and you do not reject it you have fallen into denial of finality of prophethood. Now let me come on to Ali. He did not deny any chronological he strengthened it. Immediat explained just like Abdul Wahabahi explained that ini in chronological order in and of itself intrinsically there is no virtue. Of course if there is virtue Ali should be greater than Abu Bakran. So Abdahi brings this and if you want the reference I'll give you this imbal

39:01 brings the you know explains that the >> [clears throat] >> uh chronological finality of is proven definitely and he makes very clear in a you want the reference I'll give you and he also makes clear in in of itself here is page 56 he makes very clear that if someone denies If someone denies the prophet the being the chronological last prophet of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and the last messenger of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala then he will become a now he's calling him a but unfortunately ahmed did not tell this to the once

39:46 again I invite brother Shahid to come on the fatwa of If you do not [snorts] take that and you want to go your own line then detach yourself from those and say I am doing say I am doing let me make very clear my brothers in Sharif okay these are the you know final you know things of Ahmed Rahan it's mentioned right they take him so high that he says that I have heard from Mashik Ahmed Rahan's inheritors mentioned I have heard from Sum Mashik that after seeing Ahmed Rahan My yearning for seeing the Sahabah decreased. If you see someone emulating, you're yearning to see I see my sheal

40:35 his walking was like his salah was like his speaking his handed gestures you look at the ofasam I would see that in my but my yearning for has increased even more after seeing him to say is decrease means you're putting this man in front and just like you attacked my friend M abdim just because he gave a similarity with the Sahabah that has come through them. My brothers you have taken him in place of the Sahabah. Let me make a very very clear another one himself says he says he says you know be loving after me care for one another as far as possible as far as possible don't leave following the adherence to

41:22 the shar and then he says or or is for is for separating making a new statement he says As for my dean and my religion and madhab that has come from my books acting upon that and staying firm upon that is an obligation above every obligation. So what is he calling towards his own? If kufur fatwas make all the difference then let me show you alsi had a kufur fatwa on him had kufur fatwa on him this is your professor Muhammad Ahmed he is a researcher from the braelvies he has this book mujad al-ani

42:09 page 317 he says he says that takir has always happened on him Muhammad had on him says ahmed Allah had on him. Then he says that on him he says imi and all these the son of he says had on him. Next he says that althani had a on him by 17 of the of the 17 1 seven and he says the opposition against him lasted for approximately 100 years. So just like this one is dying down but they need to keep it alive. Even in their jaludah

42:57 my message is to him if you ever want to debate come forward because you come on the platform of right now in Bangladesh our are fighting the war of there may be sazi there officially in the parliament right is there right now is there right now while you people are here attacking who strengthened all he said was what is the reason for the chronological He said it has to be an but there's many Quran being the greatest book being the ones who will carry on the deen but he says we need to go to the the reason of all the reasons and that has to be concerning the z and the being ofasoolah wasallam and then he says this is the status of the prophet has an

43:44 intrinsic and essential status now I invite him once again number two fatawa fatawa these fatwa He makes very very clear I don't take side and I don't take the other side and then he says may Allah accept both sides who had fatwas on them I just told you he said if you believe and you do shak and doubt in the of you become a kafir despite writing entire you know treatises against him what did he do he not denied He said [clears throat] he said the like he's acting like here now

44:30 don't do the you know and all his wrong wrong things. The reality is has become a based on his own denial of the of based on please stick to the fatwa. Uh again a lot of digression from our main reason of being here which is the discussion on the book and what I mentioned in the very beginning was that

45:16 in that verse He argued and gave numerous reasons to say that this verse does not mean last prophet. In his work the nas at the beginning he denied the finality of by mentioning that first of all it's a conjecture of common men common people to believe that sallallahu alaihi wasallam his era is the last of all errors in comparison in relation to other prophet and his era is the last and he's the

46:02 last of prophets. This is the awam. How can you call this? This is the jazmi of the entire and before them ofasoolah sallallahu alaihi wasallam himself. I am the last of prophets. There is no prophet after me sallallahu alaihi wasallam. He made it explicitly clear and the meaning of this verse by through uh it isal it is unequivocally proving the finality of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam that he is the last of prophets. There is no

46:47 possible way that this verse can be interpreted in other ways which deny the finality of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam doing such a thing will make a person and to say that this is and then he says that there is no intrinsically there is no excellence in being last. How is there no excellence in being last foram whenasam mentions? Isn't that a praiseworthy quality? Of course it is. Wasam is showing his shan and that Allah subhanana wa ta'ala he made me the last of all prophets on a chain of great

47:33 prophets. So that is a quality of him sallallahu alaihi wasallam. But is saying this is this verse is praising sallallahu alaihi wasallam. And is saying that this verse cannot mean last. Why cannot why can it not mean last? Because says last is just not a quality which is worthy of being praised. Yes. So he basically denied this and said that this verse cannot mean last in terms of time. This is kufur. Now our fellow speaker mentioned that in other places he affirmed the finality of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam and he said whoever denies it becomes a kafir I don't disagree with you he did

48:19 of course he affirmed it in elsewhere but affirming it elsewhere does not give you a chuty from this verse his interpretation or rather misinterpretation of this verse let me give you an example a person says in the verse in the Quran Allah says Establish salah for my remembrance. A man comes along and looks at this verse and says you know what in this verse salah means dua or rather he says salah just means physical exercise here. And you ask that man no salah here means the actual salah the namaz that we pray that the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam prayed. He says no I do not believe it in this verse. But then he says alongside this he writes a hundred of the books and he says salah is compulsory. Whoever denies

49:05 salah is a kafir. I pray five times salah. I believe it everything. He can say it a thousand times. But because he denied a a clear unequivocal verse of alquran karim that entailed and until he does not accept the clear meaning or equivocal meaning of that verse then he will fall into kuf regardless of however many times he will say it in other places that I do affirm it. So Kimri affirming elsewhere that he does believe in the finality of prophethood will not absolve him of the error the grave error that he made in misinterpreting this verse and this verse is um a clear proof on the finality of then in this same book he goes on to

49:52 mention he says He says you know if we say that this verse if it's not a matter of praise only then we can say yes it can mean last prophet again he's totally wrong this verse is a verse of praise and it does mean last prophet there's no contradiction between the two okay then furthermore He says,

50:46 he says, but I understand that the Muslims will not find this acceptable that if this verse basically means last prophet it then the speech of Allah will become fuzul will become like zi will become useless speech. Yes. So he is saying that this verse cannot mean last prophet. If this verse means last prophet then it will beam that means then he says

51:34 Kasimoti then goes on to say what is the difference between being lost this quality of being last and other things such as you know like height shakal appearance color hass i.e uh your your lineage and where you live etc. He says basically that he says what's the difference between being last and all these other qualities? Yes, even this is a grave mistake. Why? The prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam being last being being the last of prophets he sallallahu

52:21 alaihi wasallam possesses this quality uniquely himself. Yes it is such a quality which cannot be given to anybody else besides him sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Whereas things like hassukunat all these things and other qualities like that they are shared they are shared qualities. There were even kufur mushri monafikin who were Arab. They were kureshi. They were hashmi. But they were not unique qualities to being Arab being kureshi being hashmi. But this being the last prophet in manti terms what we say it is. Yes. It is not possible for this term to

53:08 apply to more than one individual. There is only one in the entire in the universe upon whom is true and that is only. So how can you equate being the last of prophets with other qualities which you know other people even possess even non-Muslims and so on. Then he mentions he's mentioned that. Then he says and he says again this follows on from the last point that for this thing he basically equates it with other qualities which are shared. Then he says and he writes he abbreviates sallallahu

53:53 alaihi wasallam. This is something which should be avoided especially by scholars. Okay. But he says he says secondly there will be a possibility of uh lowering the status of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and respect if we take this meaning if we take this meaning of last prophet in this verse and then he says So then basically he's going on to mention here that these

54:40 qualities which are mentioned here these other qualities like sukunat and husb etc. He says these are not the kind of qualities that you would mention in a basically is the time. Brother Shahid has once again failed to answer my question. Why are you moving away from the order of Ahmed Zakan in Hamulh? Are you saying you don't want to go according to the order? Just be clear with me because I can tackle you on both issues. If you go according to the order, Zakan is still a liar. If you

55:27 don't go according to order, I will prove Ahmed Rahan a kafir by his own principle. And I'm not saying it in another way. Ahmed Razakhan's own principle. Right? Listen very very carefully brothers. I will give you a few texts. Right? IM is not denying chronological finality of Wasam. He's strengthening it by explaining its reason. Its reason is the status of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam and hypothetical statements. Even in this first one he's missing out the means the next page the basis of it right inshallah we'll go into depth on this when he explains to me does he want to explain them as kufur three separate passages because Ahmed had a chance to

56:12 prove three kufur but he was so generous that he did it in one wow subhan allah like let me explain put in your up and you'll find that ahmed has quoted this left, right and center. This is a of okay and in this Ahmed Raan has praised this book numerous times and then he says listen very very carefully this scholar right the author of this who has been endorsed by Ahmed then he says he says he says is when we say

57:00 with a because remember there's there's both he says when we say with a means but when we say he says then the spirit of the meaning in this what do spirit of the meaning mean spirit of the meaning means the essence what gives being last strength intrinsic value. He says he says it is the completion of something, the excellence of something, not intrinsically just being last. Then he says

57:46 then he he says he says is the one who gave the excellence because started from him. And by the way in his he says that the prophet in Arabic he said the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam was a nabi when you know at the time where even Adam alisam was in his transitional period between having his soul blown into him. according to his grand teacher of if you believe this and I want him to challenge me on it. You are the of ai. Number one he says number two I will show you that and number three he says was on his belief you have to believe no prophethood in so according to his

58:32 teachers teacher of Alvi who approximately 70,000 people parttook in his janaza he has been stamped by he was one of their big shots he had 10 books written against him 10 books subhan allah their fanaticism My brothers his own ad has been called kafir by Sharif his adi he has been called kafir challenge me on it I'll read the fatwa out and shahali has called the shar the same center that issued fatwa on our he called their fatwa baseless so how come base against our when it's his own teacher then it becomes baseless so my brothers if we look at this he says

59:18 that okay so now my brothers what is he doing he is explaining that this is the so when imm is using the word he's saying believe wasallam is only as end whereasam has both meanings and if you deny both meanings then and you call this kufur you will have to call the dad of kafir and I have his books here like I said time does not allow if you want to take both meanings my brothers then I

1:00:04 have here this is the of what does he say he says on page 217 seven. He says on page 217, he says [clears throat] with a z on the and with a what does it mean? He gives two meanings. He says it has the meaning of last and it also has the meaning of the one who is the completer. The one who gives the excellence. Every God through accepting to believe and help

1:00:59 on this verse second to last page of jud number three of the noble Quran Iran there is a written by please read And he explained this meaning here. Ifah was hypothetically hypothetically in the previous prophets times between two prophets then they would have to leave their sharat and follow him and act upon. My brothers these kufur fatwas are very easy to fly around. Believe me if I start on their internal wars. Khadim Rizby. Khadim Hussein Rizby has been called a kafir. He claimed God ship

1:01:46 according to Ashar Af Jalali. He was on the stage while Sum was saying God. He was on the stage while Sum was saying Nabi. Ashf Jalali did a of him. He said he needs to do his again. And Ash Jalali is one of the elders of Muish Ali. This does not end. We've got a man called Rashid. Are you listening? This my brothers is his bookw he wrote he forged right claiming that this is a report of a between because in those days they used to have the in writing between him and our great great grand teacher. May Allah fill his grave with N. So now my brothers he went back and he wrote his

1:02:31 own stuff. But you know what? He's he's done raan over. Why? And subhan Allah. What does he say? Listen very very carefully. He he he he he endorses this. By the way, this is this is page and 121 and 22 where he starts from and I am quoting from 134. He says, he says we are only we are only of the opinion of having alike in this alike intrinsically impossible in this only. If there is another world

1:03:18 and in that world there is there are prophets besides this and they have their own who is alike like the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. We do not put a ruling on that being intrinsically impossible. Subhan Allah. So what does he mean? He is now accepting seven whereas doesn't do that. He says if we take the of Abbas all of them have taken from the f and the spirituality and the completion the excellence of none of them after them only mentions hypothetically if we were to believed he is so in the completion sense he is the

1:04:05 completer of all chronologically to believe every anyone after him I'm still waiting for the fatwa of the and I want to know which direction because he's not coming on one thing he's not making clear what is the exact kufur he's just repeating the same regurgitating the same rubbishman again a lot of digression a lot of talk about things which were not our subject of debate today scholars in Pakistan contemporary scholars this person that person we're not here to discuss these things we're here essentially to discuss the ibarat >> it's on my um it's on the thing >> the ibarat of >> on my condition. I put you on the internet. You accepted it elders books.

1:04:53 It's my time to speak now the statements passages in there which amount to a denial of the finality of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam. I will just pose this question thinking point for the audience out there for everyone listening. If someone was to say that I believe in the monotheism, sorry, if someone was to say that belief in the monotheism, the oneness of Allah, this is just the conjecture of common people. But the people of understanding know they understand that being one uh the people of understanding they understand that even if there was another God in the heavens and earth

1:05:39 then it will not affect the monotheism of God. Now anyone listening to this statement will understand that this is completely absurd. Why? Because if you say even if there is another god in the heavens and earth the oneness of Allah is not affected. Is this statement correct or incorrect? It is incorrect because if there was another god then thehed the oneness of Allah is affected. So similarly what we say to uh man we say to him that when you look at the statement of he is saying even if another prophet appears today the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam is still

1:06:26 this is illogical it doesn't make sense the correct statement here would be that if there is another god in the heavens and earth then the oneness of Allah is affected Allah is no longer one then is he? How can Allah be one if there is another god besides him? So the hished it will be affected his oneness will be affected because there is another god. Similarly when we say if there is another prophet who is born after sallu alaihi wasallam then his finality is affected. This is where kasima made the grave error and said it is not affected. When he said the finality of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam is not affected then people

1:07:12 like Mirai came along and they take the same meaning and interpretation of the verse as not tweeted. You speak to aani today and ask him do you believe prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam is he'll say yes absolutely. Oh, do you? Okay. And you also believe Miraam Ahmed Kadani to also be a prophet? They say yes, absolutely. And the proof that they will present is the text of Kimi. If you look online when the Kadanis are presenting the evidences, I released those videos prior to these guys making their challenge for the debate and everything. I released some of my old videos where I showed Kadanis actively quoting Kasim Noti.

1:08:00 Okay? And they're saying, you know, he's look at this guy. He, you know, he's supposedly a Sunni scholar and he's saying the same thing as us. He's saying even if another prophet is born today, yes, that it does not affect the finality of Muhammad sallallah.aii wasallam. So if you look here in his statement in which we will focus on, he mentions here If for instance after the era of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam any prophet is born then even still the finality of Muhammad is not affected

1:08:47 at all. Now anyone with common sense listening to this sentence can you not see how clear this kufur is that even if another prophet is born today prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam is still muhammmedi not affected who believes this that the obundis believe this who defend this text not all the many out there will not even know about this and my argument is not with them okay my argument and case and issue is only with those people specifically who defend this statement and statements like this. Then he mentions here. Then after this he says

1:09:33 he says regardless of whether that prophet is in the same era of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam whether he is on this zamine or if for instance he is on another zam and there is another prophet who now I would to focus on the word when something you do of something and you do of it then you are saying it is Jan okay when you're doing something it is not fal here okay man I hope you're listening this statement is not f mu but they are doing of something which is jad

1:10:20 Okay. Or it can be it could be something which you are saying is impossible right which is totally impossible. I'm just saying I'm giving a hypothetical example or it can be when you're doing when you are saying suppose this thing happens suppose another prophet prophet comes afterallam and then you are saying you're doing you are saying it is rationally possible in this kufur statement of his he denied the finality of if he had said if he said that that is an effect on the finality of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam. We would have no argument. We would have no issue with

1:11:06 that. Okay. And then I have some questions uh for our fellow speaker today that if supposedly a new prophet was to come today, would it violate? Would it affect the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam being? Please answer this. And secondly also if you can please answer is the nabua of the uda prophets is it zi are they intrinsically prophets or is it ardi are they extrinsically prophets are they nabi in of themselves right are they are they nabi in of themselves or have they been uh are they nabi okay extrinsically thirdly if you can also explain

1:11:53 is The ayah of is that for time is that ayatala for time that the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is last in terms of time. you mentioned things about uh and multiple readings of that uh term but this is a book by uh shika okay and I've been passed this just now uh and he talks about and then he goes on to mention So he says if it's like is then it means

1:12:42 the one upon whom it is finished i.e. the meaning is of that the one upon whom all the prophets finish. So essentially he goes on to mention the meaning of it is so with the it means last of prophets. And then he says the in fact is and even here he says yes and again this also means the one who finishes the chain of prophets i.e. The meaning of it is that he is the last of them too. Okay. So that is the same meaning regardless. Now the issue that

1:13:30 we have here with is that he denied the explicit and meaning of as being last of prophets. In this verse he said in this verse it cannot mean last. He said if it means last it cannot mean last because this is a place of praise and being last is not something of praise. He said this verse if it means uh if it means last then said that uh basically because it is a of it cannot mean last and then further on I would like to mention in my next slot I'm running out of time he also mentioned that the would not be when he says he mentions regarding this if it means last the would not even be and then he

1:14:16 equated being last with other qualities like etc. and other things like that. But I would just like to finish off with the questions for us. Please can you answer? If supposedly a new prophet was to be born today, would it violate? Answer this I think brother Shahid is moving from the topic. He is not quoting the text correctly. Let me put on the board for you exact text that Ahmed Rahan has um quoted. Right? So he says, Right? Now this is all he says if it is

1:15:02 conceived if we imagine in the [clears throat] era of Sai wasallam. Now this he's quoted from page 65. What's this? This is my book. Oh >> is it yours? >> Yeah. Yeah. This is my book. Yeah. Yeah. So he quotes this is you see there's three separate passages. Let me explain it because I think I'm going on to other things even though on the conditions is clearly mentioned both texts this and I have the right to bring up those text but we'll leave that for later. No problem. Their right okay >> has three different places that Ahmed tried to quote from but in the order he strung them together. The one that's in the middle right on page 65 another one on page 41. another word of on page 85. So he first quotes the one on 65 right

1:15:51 then he quotes 85 and then the one he's saying which make basically means imat is saying the awam believe only last he's not denying last he's saying only last but they don't understand the principle the core reason for being last which is the status for example if another if another nabi were to come after his sharat would make this mansour and that would not be possible because that would be of something that would be abrogation of something which is lower in level for something which is the most excellent the shar of andasoolah so my brothers let's explain this 65 85 and 41

1:16:37 now what should have been this quoted first then this and then this he's brought this first yes this second whereas this is the last part of the book and this third. Now listen carefully even this one that he's brought right so the condition he's he's just you know left it the condition a condition and a jazah means if I come to your house I will eat so if I come to your house I will eat the condition is if I come to your house and the consequence is I will eat right now if I say I will eat or for example if shahid hits me I'll hit him. Now if someone goes start spreading,

1:17:22 I'll hit him. I'm not saying if Shahid hits me, how bad does that sound? So what he's done is he's missed the first part. Raakan cop he did editing in the text, right? And this is why I'm asking him to go in order of Razakhan because he is the bunad, the basis of the fatwa. So this is all he's brought from page 65. Okay? And this literally means if it is imagined. Imagined. Imagined. Now my question to him is is imagining after imagine just imagining is that according to Omar is that kufur? Because according to Alihan here must the father of Ahmed if he says came

1:18:11 between two prophets in the previous times said the same thing. So now if he did come this is just hypothetical it would not decrease the status of Allah he would still be the greatest in status but can it happen? No that's all they're saying. This is all I saying. Where does ma come into this? The fact that mira is coming into your mind means you've got some germs in maybe believing him as prophet. >> No one's believed. No one's raised mira. Why is he coming to your mind when the word n is mentioned? These are hypothetical things. So if it is imagined imagined in his meaning sallallahu alaihi wasallam sallallahu alaihi wasallam era that's all ahmed has quoted. This is the

1:18:57 huh >> sallallahu alaihi wasallam have said it if it is imagined in his era if if he's imagined in his era and what now the amazing thing is this is what he took to the first part so this is a condition no consequence right even though because of there's actually two consequences so if I say if shahid hits me I'll kick him and punch him. So if he hits me, this is the condition and I'll kick him. This is the consequence and punch him. Consequence two. What he did was miss the condition, miss the consequence number one and call consequence number three. Two only consequence number two. Okay. Now let's bring the actual text and I want him to

1:19:43 put ham on it going to become the the text is actually this. The text is actually this. It says If the question this is the actual text from the actual book which Ahmed in Arabic compressed yes the UDU translators after he died yes they brought the full sentence but even then not full fuller right it says if it is imagined in is era. Yes. What is imagined?

1:20:29 >> A or a else where elsewhere. Even then, even then his sallallahu alaihi wasallam finality will remain intact. Now my question is it's on the board brothers. This is the full text which Ahmed should have quoted. He never even benefit of the doubt. Shah my question to you I'll even give you my time. Prove this to be kufur. Put hookum on this. Is this kufur? Is this kufur? Please, if I've mistransated it, you tell me. Is

1:21:16 this kufur? Right, I'm going to hand my time over. I've got two books from Ahmed's father and Anwari Jamal Mustafa. Right, press me on it. I'll give you the references. He basically says the same thing. If the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam came in between two previous prophets they would have to leave everything and follow him right he denied prophethood by saying that number one number two this is the full text of what should have quoted and even more and before it and after it but he didn't the translators inu of haram have translated it like this right correct my translation if it's wrong put on it then

1:22:02 I will prove a I'm giving my time over to you. Please concentrate on this. Let's go in the order of Husamman. So following on from what Osman has said that Imam Ahmed Rahan basically lied and distorted the words of Gasim Naoti. This is totally false. The order in which he conveyed these three statements is irrelevant. Okay. The order in which he conveyed these

1:22:49 statements is irrelevant as long as the meaning is not distorted or changed. When the meaning is distorted unchanged then it would be an issue but in this case it was not an issue. The meaning was not distorted. Let's see what Allah said. We've just said you know it can be it can be in both. Okay. So [snorts] he says if it is supposed in ifar bilars there is a nabi in the time lifetime of

1:23:34 rasoolah sallallahu alaihi wasallam and even if a prophet is born after him sallallahu alaihi wasallam a new prophet then it will not affect his finality. Okay. So you see allah in the beginning mentions two things. If there is a prophet in his lifetime uh yeah or if there is a prophet after him sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Yes. Then he mentions the jaz. So he mentions two of the the two conditions here both of them. He says if the prophet comes in his lifetime and or if the prophet comes after his lifetime sallallahu alaihi wasallam then he gives the same jazah for both of them then what will happen? it will not affect the finality of

1:24:20 prophethood. Let's look at what wrote in Udu and then let's see if Allah hazat has lied or if he has simply conveyed a correct meaning. Okay. Now there were two places where he mentioned this bilah and we will examine it. Okay. Here on my version page 14 the nas says if for instance in the era of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam there is another prophet somewhere else then the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam being katam remains.

1:25:05 So the him being a katam is not affected if a prophet is during the lifetime of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam. That's the first statement. Let's see what he mentions in the other place. In the other place, what does he mention? >> Yes, it is kufur. Okay, perfect. Then in another place, he says okay. So in one place what's the conditional statement? If there is a prophet during the lifetime ofasallam even then his is not affected. And then in the second sentence another conditional statement if a prophet comes after the lifetime of sallallahu alaihi

1:25:52 wasallam again the result is the same. >> What's the result? His will not be affected. So what Allah hazat has done has just summarized these two statements. Okay. So maybe if I can write in English as well so I can give a bit of explanation. A can I rip this out as well? Yeah, >> you might need that. >> Okay. I will not read that in. Where's the where's the hookum of kufur on it? Anyway, >> no, I'll put hookum of kufur. Okay. So, have you got a pen? >> Did I translate it correct? Please look at the >> Where's the pen? I'll just need a pen so you can write >> my body or my pen. No problem. >> Yeah, no problem. Okay, thanks. Right. Okay. So, basically if there is a prophet in his era or after his era, let's look to the first text. You said it's prophet. >> Okay. If a nabi

1:26:37 okay >> exists >> I'll I'll just abbreviate it. Okay. Uh >> exists. >> Exists. >> Wait a minute. It's not about exist. >> I said or >> No, no, no, no. >> Don't interrupt. It's my turn. Sorry. If Good boy. If is in his era. Okay. Yeah. Is not affected. Not affected. Feels like being in school again. If ai is in his era, his not affected. Aa the place. What was

1:27:26 it? If a Nabi again is born is born after his era. Okay. Nabi is born after him. The result was the same. >> The jaz was the same. Ditto. Okay. Not affected. So what Allahh did when he took it the fatwa when he took it the the statement to the you know that if it was supposed that there was a prophet in his era rather if a prophet

1:28:14 was born after his era. Allah h then said his is not affected. Now how is the lie? The result is the same. Do you understand? There's two conditions there and there's two results. The result is the same. >> Do you understand guys? So that's clear. So Allah h hasn't lied. All right. So Allah h hasn't lied. So clearly explained that. He basically summarized it. He made life easy for everyone. Okay. So mah here. Next. This was a second important sentence which is based on the statement of the beginning of the which I've already read out to you guys before.

1:29:00 Yeah. So basically he's mentions here in husam haram and that the awam the common people this is what kasimi mentioned is translating his statement for the Arabic or he said that the awam it is their he said that it is the of the awam it is the like the the conjecture you can call it you can call it just like a thought of the aam they suppose that means lust of prophets okay that means means lust of prophets and then alongside this he said there is no excellence in this at all according to the people of understanding right so let's see the original udu for that as well right what does it say in

1:29:45 the original udu statement at the meaning writes. So it's the kayal of the aam it's the thought of the common folk that what that the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam him being means that his era is after the era of the previous prophets right that's exactly what allah has written in haram he hasn't distorted the meaning okay in in meaning okay he's conveyed that same meaning there.

1:30:31 But he says but in being first and being last the people of understanding say that there is intrinsically no excellence in this. Now I will come to biza intrinsically that k is put there that k is useless. Okay why why there is no excellence according to kasimi in being last. Shall I tell you why? Because what he mentions in the next sentence, he says, he says, "How can it be correct to mention being last? For for this verse to mean to mean lust? How can it be valid?" It cannot be valid because being lust is not even a praiseworthy quality.

1:31:17 Therefore, there is no excellence in being last according to So even there the which Allah the way he's translated this it is correct and then another thing mentioned you mentioned um that here is saying that uh the conjecture of the aam is that the only meaning is yes is that correct is that is that what you're saying we said that the only meaning yes but where is there in This has he said >> where is the negation >> the negation theam is >> you're not looking at the on the next page you've talked to me so I'm talking look on the on the next page >> you can shows you can shows in your time

1:32:03 but I am showing you this this statement >> look at the next page the basis in your time >> okay I'll take a bit extra time for that >> no you can't my time you're making you're gifting me time aa so This is only meaning last prophet. My brothers, I've explained this many times. Immedal is not saying that the awam are wrong in believing this. He's saying they think it only means this. Let me give you another example. You goti. Yeah, there's a few. One of them is he's the you got one immiz of the jam. Not him. Hakeimiz has a book called He has a book

1:32:48 called listen to what he says. He makes very very clear the same thing. He says [clears throat] you know regarding the hadith of on the day of sui wasallam on the day of judgment make for us inshallah for the he says the people will come to sallam and the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is he says and the meaning of to us indeed with all its Excellencies has been complete for Muhammad saiam.

1:33:34 So the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam's blessed heart for the excellence of has been made like a vessel and then has been sealed. He goes on as for those people who are blind from knowing this meaning knowing the deeper meaning of not denying chronological knowing why chronological has the value he's saying those people who are blind from knowing this what do they think they think he says those who are blind from knowing the deeper meaning They think its interpretation and meaning is that he's only the last. He's saying the same thing.

1:34:22 What virtue is in this? He is saying and let me tell you who this man is. You've just debated right the engineering guy. You've just debated him and you've brought Kashul Mjashul Mjub say Ali in Kashul Mjub page 191 has said I am a fanatic of I am a fanatic of Imizi and I am a fanatic of this book. So put a fatwa upon Ali. So what does he say? Listen carefully. He says the same thing. Those people who are blind from knowing the deeper meaning of they don't know that they just think it means last. Of course it means last. But why last? And he says

1:35:09 and then he goes on because why is it and a praiseworthy when it's accompanied with both and imm say even mentions he mentions that we do not we do not negate be it being part of the meaning of the verse that that's not proven from the verse we say it's proven with the with the status of together. He does not deny that. He makes place for it. So he's actually strengthened the listen carefully. He says he says which virtue is in being last and what knowledge is there in this?

1:35:57 He says this is the interpretation of the dimwitted the people of low intellect. Low intellect. low intellect and the ignorant ones. My brothers, this is he brings this. He says means the one who the you know the final and the means the most beautiful the most excellent of the in terms of creation you know appearance and in terms of next

1:36:47 is of You're one of your favorite

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