Jonathan Morris on the daunting task of writing for Janet Fielding's first Big Finish as a regular

0:00 this is Jeffrey beavers and you will obey me you will listen to the Sirens of audio well I'll be your doctor for this consultation how can I be of assistance well I have a bit of an embarrassing problem don't be embarrassed it's only you and me here please tell me what's troubling you well every time I put on these headphones an audio drama of just any description starts playing in my ears are you telling me you don't have any control over your listening experience that's exactly right I'll get this burning sensation

0:45 in my head and yes go on well I'm feeling very ashamed to say are you wanting to tell me that you begin to enjoy the random Audio Drama yes doctor I do well I hate to tell you this but I think you have possibly the worst case of randomized I've ever seen no not random words anything but random words is there a cure I'm sorry to have to inform you sir but I think you're a terminal case [Laughter]

1:31 [Music] g'day audio files this is the Sirens of audio the show that explores the universe of Doctor Who in the audio medium I'm Dwayne and I'm Philip g'day Dwayne g'day audiophiles g'day Philip how are you I am excellent

2:17 thank you I'm excellent what's so good oh that's been a great week satisfying week things are wouldn't be beautiful lots of sun but it's it's um it's drying up after three years of rain every single day we've now gone about three weeks without rain I can see the Heat's coming it's going to be a bad summer hmm anyhow I'm enjoying the I'm enjoying the lovely warm winter down here anyhow I've got some news too um I just booked my uh passage to the mainland on with my Caravan it is happening it is happening this time lots of plans are starting to happen for people after a few years of delay so that's uh that's a good thing but anyway this episode is another of what we like to call we've got random boys

3:05 yes it's randomized time once again and we selected a couple of stories from the Tardis cookie jar from uh who who were they I I know there was oh no we didn't select two we selected one which was cobwebs uh that was our friend good friend Teresa and because we pulled we drew out a box set you had to choose one that's right Philip which was uh death and the Queen now normally we we jump down a rabbit hole but I won't today because we're just going to talk about these stories but boy I've I've had some rabbit hole viewing and listening lately I can tell you that really um oh the rabbit holes I've been going down I um

3:51 I've been listening well today I'll be up I'll have to probably backtrack oh I've been watching a show called Jamaica Inn now it's been remade a few times to make it in I think there was a recent series then there's the 1983 television television series and there's Alfred Hitchcock one from the 1930s and uh I was first introduced to the to the acting skills of Patrick mcguin in the 1983 version uh which also starred Jane Seymour dear did you ever see that no it is are they great performers oh but Patrick mcguin was Sensational so that was the first thing I ever saw him in before even The Prisoner but the reason I mentioned that is because what led me to start to dig that out of my archive was that I

4:37 came across an audio version that I had sitting there that I hadn't that was in my queue to listen to and I was listening away and I thought I know that voice the guy who plays uh Josh Merlin who is the Patrick mcguin character on the TV series it was John Woodvine so yeah and and he had one role in Doctor Who didn't he no owning the Armageddon Factor as the Marshall oh yes okay yes that was the only role he had I think I had a feeling okay who am I mixing up for um Frontier in space the pre the um Prince I thought John would Vine too but obviously oh that's that's he's also in

5:23 Terror of the zygon spearhead from space isn't he yes no not the prince not the prince I can't I can't think who it is okay certainly not John Woodvine I know that okay and what I've sort of been following John Woodvine around because in I did a re-watch recently of the tripods um and John Woodvine plays one of the alien Masters I know you haven't seen it Philip but uh in the second series we we come face to face with the aliens who are inside the tripods and John Woodvine is the voice of that so boy a rabbit hole of Discovery in my place it's never ending because I'm still probably I've still probably got stuff lying around that I need to listen to but anyway well I've got to listen to too much stuff for this podcast so so there

6:10 you go the first one we'll have a look at because we also have the special treat of John Johnny Morris joining us for part of this episode because he's he was the author of cobwebs and he's uh given us some very interesting little Snippets that we're going to share with you shortly so we'll start off with death and the queen which is a 10th Doctor story eh sounds good all right let me read the blurb for it Donna Noble has never been lucky in love so when one day her prince does come she's thrilled to have the wedding of all weddings to look forward to though the doctor isn't holding his breath for an invitation and her future mother-in-law is certainly not amused but on the big day itself Donna finds her castle Under Siege from

6:57 the darkest of forces marching at the head of a skeleton army when it looks like even the doctor can't save the day what will Queen Donna do to save her people from Death itself coming soon from Big finish Productions Doctor Who The Tenth Doctor Adventures already what is this place calibrous brilliant place an entirely mechanical Planet catch hitch fuel fixed by pretty much any kind of Transportation in existence [Music]

7:43 this Empire's a massive leap in user-friendly Tech Meadow digital's ahead of the game on the chipsets quadruple core Nano circuits and a Sleek sexy designer package ultra thin look you're talking but it's all geek to me can we go I suppose okay robot's running a mock Donna we're on remain where you are Beck's grab my hand go down there one of us needs to and I just can't come on if you're coming don't want to dislocated shoulder for nothing do not run we've required test subjects ah there it is vagabonds reach Tavern of taverns most feared social environment in the Galaxy you've never been up sugar Hut on a Tuesday you don't know

8:28 everything about me ready is this the front door they don't even have bounces yeah them all as bouncers foreign [Applause] [Music] big finish we love stories what are you saying they fizzled in somehow like the Tardis yeah trans Man From Another Dimension the the Tardis doesn't fizzle

9:15 it's more of a death of the Queen by James Goss effect and the trivia directed by Nicholas Briggs produced by David Richardson script edited by Manchester sound design and music by Howard Carter starring David tennis as the doctor Catherine Tate has done a noble Blake Richardson as Rudolph Alice Krieg is the queen mum fifth Chalmers is Fortes and Alan Cox's death this is episode 1.3 in the 10th doctor Adventures recorded on the 22nd of October 2015 at the middle Studios and released in May 2016. it was released as a single story but all three stories in this series were released in the same month there was also at this time released a limited box set with

10:02 technophobia and time River the other two stories the trilogy in May 2016. so you can either buy there's a special box set or individually and it was released again as a standard box set in February 2017. open affiliate maybe releases an LP too but I need to confirm this The Limited box set was 5 000 copies and was with a lavish book size set including exclusive artwork photographs articles and a one-hour documentary with interviews and a bonus documentary about the works of the worlds of Doctor Who at Big finish part of a Trilogy of stories that brought the 10th doctor to the big finish and although David Tennant had done a lot of work for being finished before this is the first time he gets to play as the doctor this is the first time that Catherine Tate Works to be finished Blake gridson

10:49 would return to Big Fish to be cast at an adamant Alice Craig is best known to many people for playing the ball Queen in Star Trek first Contact but also Voyager lower decks and most recently the card and although she was reported dead by the internet in July last year she's actually still alive and well Charmers is the big footage regular and we spoke to her a few weeks ago go have a listen Alan Cox was a child actor who worked extensively in film and television his main role for being finished was the strength series as Ken Prague Thompson the son of Robin a workaholic with a glitches son great series as well the script here is by James Goss and it Bears all his usual dark humor that you expect from him as a writer and that's the facts and the trivia so this was your choice because

11:35 we pulled the Box in and we needed a single story so let me ask you Philip although I think I know your answer are you happy with your choice ah yes so much so it's I I first started listening to these and I thought wow the chemistry between David Tennant Catherine Tate is just magical and it's still there perhaps even better than it was on TV yeah I do think this is in particular I haven't had a chance to go back and listen to the first two stories um I mean the reason why I pulled it was it's 10th Doctor we haven't done a tenth doctor in a roundabout so I wanted to choose if for that reason and I do remember just this one being particularly funny and clever it was a while to go back into it I really wish I'd had time now because of the first two my memories as I listened to the

12:22 three of them in order was this was by far the best of the trilogy but to be fair this was even better than I remembered I do need to go back and listen to the other two as well but I think you're right I think the Chemistry Between the doctor and daughter the the script the interplay their quick banter with each other it's a timing yeah it is just perfect Dr Donna and that makes me more excited about what's going to happen in November that's exactly what I was going to say when I was listening to this I was going oh wow this is going to be great uh when we when we get these specials come out you're talking about the the special edition as well the limited edition what number have you got I've got 2630 is mine I didn't pull mine out I should go have a look but yes and that's probably the last that could be the last physical

13:08 purchase I bought from big for this but there might be a few more but I do remember David Tennant coming to Big finish was huge the 10th doctor coming in um because it was the first modern doctor 15 years or so and for the first time a new series doctor was coming and so it was huge and they made a huge thing out of it and and that's special that's beautiful boxes it is it smells great I love smelling things like that that was good okay it does I think it was not a scratch and sniff but it just smells good but okay it smells good onion yeah um I really enjoyed this I thought some of the ideas were interesting because I was listening to this in the

13:53 car I I missed a couple of things so I was I was trying to work out what this what this country was and I missed a couple of little points but they all sort of came together in the end and or I also want to go back and listen to all three of these stories too and I seem to remember what are the other two stories called technophobia and time River I remember being impressed with every one of them yeah I'm pretty sure they're all good but I I do recall being especially impressed with this one and I notice on the I think we're both looking at the website of the single release of this story and it's got every actor on there except Beth Charmers poor

14:38 Beth she's not there says featuring Alice Allen and Blake but know Beth yeah I mean to be honest but she's in there too the others are bigger names even though it just big Finnish family Beth's or else but in terms of um outward knowledge of people the the other all big bigger names I mean once again and actually if you look at if you go to the box and look at the whole cast to sing for people in all the stories they have managed to pull the most amazing casts for these two stories yeah they've not held back at all no no they've got yeah Dr Donna they've managed to pull in so many huge names to accommendation do these things and yeah I mean Alice Creek is a huge name in in

15:24 [Music] um fan circles what was she in recently she was in another big finish released just recently what he was it was the fifth doctor box set conflicts of interest I knew that was it oh yeah something I knew it was something recent I mean I mean to say yeah but the other thing when I heard she was dead it's funny that the whole thing was just a fake it's like oh you're kidding me yeah people liked it it's happened it's happened a couple of times now to a couple of different people it has well one thing about stories written in that era for television was the amazing way Russell T Davies could do it and Stephen Moffat could do

16:11 it too they could they could explain a complex piece of Science Fiction in a single line and it was done here too in this um so James Goss has done a great job in tapping into their their way of Storytelling so I think there's a line in there about how the aliens were were some of the best mate they were the best makers of um perception or something yeah and so that explains a whole heap of stuff because we know what perception filters are and explains a whole heap of stuff in a very very short space of time so it's very clever it's very clear I'm very in in awe of that type of Storytelling actually yeah

16:58 I mean I still think James Scott is one of the best writers big fish have in terms of humor and interplay and just clever twists and um yeah I'm always impressed by everything he writes and he the whole series of torture we did for over 12 months every story was absolutely brilliant and this is another one it just yeah everything about is funny it's clever um I think they need to play with Donna what they do with a character um another wedding so Donna her weddings are just hilarious at all times um and once again it's just plays so beautifully off of the people in in the cast um you know who are playing against blakewood city as Rudolph um all their scenes are so funny I think in many ways Donna really does steal the whole show um the doctors there is the second character's bit of a foil

17:43 um Donna does some solutions the doctors the final solution is his job to do that but really it's a donor play in it Donald just shines absolutely anything else you want to say about this no I'm happy this makes you go listen to it oh if if you listen to any 10th Doctor story listen to this one but preferably just get the whole lot you won't be disappointed with this whole set actually no series one of the tenth doctor Adventures for big finish okay let's move move on to the next story that was chosen for us by drawing it from the Tardis cookie jar and this is Teresa's story this is um The Fifth Doctor story cobwebs featuring the Tardis team of Tegan turlo and Nissa

18:28 and the fifth doctor back together again how is that possible we're about to find out and here is the blurb you know what cobwebs mean spiders in search of a cure for a sickness that has so far claimed 6 Billion Lives scientists Nissa arrives at an abandoned Gene Tech facility on the toxic Planet hellheim hellhole more like this is not alone the Tardis has also been drawn to the hellhind base and in its cobweb coated corridors she soon runs into the doctor Tegan and terlo her traveling Companions of half a century past but who or what has engineered this strange reunion the black Guardian perhaps

19:14 the answer is here in the dark with the crack tits in the cobwebs coming soon from Big finish Productions Doctor Who cobwebs [Music] yes still an atmosphere gravity normal let's take a look outside shall we [Music] I thought I saw something move near the access shaft to alarm you but there's something in the ship with us oh great another gloomy Corridor warning thread mode activated

20:01 what are you doing here this is a top security facility I don't take orders from saboteurs have to stop this spider station is going to end up dead whatever you do Teagan don't move is that the best you can do this is my life you're talking about turlo's life this is life your life I always knew that the four of you would come back to me Tegan Nissa

20:47 and the doctor hmm oh cobwebs yes odd that subscribers get more at bigfinish.com cobwebs by Jonathan Morris the facts and the trivia directed by Barnaby Edwards produced by David Richardson script edited by Alan Bart and sound design and music by Steve Buxton so in Peter Davidson Sarah Sutton John mcfeely and Mark strickson number 136 in the monthly range record on the 29th of December and the fourth uh sorry record of the 29th of December

21:32 2009 and the 4th January 2010 at the mode Studios released July 2010 General had been talking to returning to the role of Tegan by Gary Russell during an Australian Doctor Who convention this happened in 2006 when Tegan appearing what would have been her real age she'd been effectively killed off or was at least given a terminal illness four years later James is talking to coming back hardly because she realizes that without Tegan it's hard to play stories of the fifth doctor hero as Tegan is the linchpin to the whole era this is the first in the trilogy of stories they'll generally enjoy so much so that should keep returning the story is set two days after this left the doctor and Tegan and turlo but 50 years after leaving Vanessa

22:19 though trackonites or is that the right word tracking lights Dragon Knights age very slowly and although this was now 17 she only appears to be 14. cobwebs is a very timey wormy story and begins to set up a lot of scenarios that will play out over many stories to come it begins at the very end of the doctor historian Enlightenment taking up the conversations from that story and that's the facts and the trivia well this Philip was a landmark story wasn't it this was something that was we talked about the excitement of having the Tenth Doctor but five years before that we had this and we had Janet Fielding re well coming to Big finish virtually for the first time as a regular she came as a one-off

23:05 we all assumed it would be a one-off but now we had the first inner Trilogy of stories which would go on and is still continuing to this day so this was a landmark story which was very I remember being very excited about this one it's very weird it doesn't feel like the landmark story it just I mean gender field it just feels like part of the village should be finished but there's how the fifth Story doctor's story that comes out that she's not in yeah you forget that there was a time a long time where she wasn't there yeah exactly you forget there was 11 years before Janet actually started you know she was one of the hardest people to get to come back and yet now she's just so familiar and so embedded in big finish that you know most people wouldn't realize that there

23:50 was that time where you just didn't think she was going to come and yes she established herself immediately with the story like from the first scene without argument with the doctor teigen's back with no doubt and you know the the previous story four years earlier I enjoyed that but it was a bit cerebral it was a bit out there I enjoyed it but it was it wasn't what I really wanted this is what I wanted this was taken back playing the character Janice captured her voice straight away arguments with turlo I was with the doctor but yeah it's still a heart and a compassion um a spiritual fight you know a real face and even though in some ways you could it was all about Jenna coming back the other companions you know Sarah Sutton and Mark Mark strickson they don't play lesser roles they they roles

24:38 are huge and it's interesting I think these the four characters are really dominating everything so there is a there are three other human characters in it plus robots and they all have a part to play but their story is secondary the story is really about the four regulars getting back together again solving the problem these interplay with other characters but the other characters just kind of disappear in the background it's not they're not important but everything's about the main characters I think that's why I enjoy this so much with with the main premise being that they go through the first episode and then come across some bodies that they presume to be themselves because it's all dressed in their clothing and whatever it looks

25:23 very much like them it's proven that it's proven to be there DNA everything is there it's it's all there so very very similar I couldn't help but think of the the space museum however the space museum went for a cracking first episode to some might say a bland uh further three episodes or following three episodes this however um keeps it's a very you've got to keep listening to it because it's quite complex and I struggle in my old age Philip with the timey wimy stuff but there's lots of timey why me in this one if you like that kind of thing this will be your cup of tea and the resolution itself I thought was just so

26:09 um it was so what's the word I'm looking for give me give me the word it was well it was it was surprising um but it was unexpected yeah it was it was really unexpected like I can't think I've forgot this I mean I mean I I mean I can I've listened to hundreds and maybe thousands of things since then true I mean I haven't listened to this since it came out which yeah going back to listen to again it was so good and and now it's actually made me think I have to keep going now with all the trilogies and I think there's four or five trilogies that these guys carry because they end up in the East space as well at one stage so I think one or two trilogies as well they do they do yeah

26:54 so I I I've only ever listened to these stories once I really want to go I really need to find time now and just listen to just these characters and their trilogies because this is back what big finish was making um a Trilogy of each of the three doctors that they had because they only had Peter Davidson Colin Baker Sylvester McCory um maybe Tom Baker was coming back but Tom Baker wasn't part of the main range he was doing his own he started off to his own Series so you had a Trilogy of those three and then the others at this time I think uh Lucy Miller was going strong at this point for the eight o'clock you're right um and then the other three would often be just a one-off story for each of the doctors or something different um so so it was only like once a year you'd get a Trilogy I'm pretty sure there's another Trilogy at the end of this year of these

27:40 characters because they get they brought them when they had gender in a good mood at the start and they weren't sure she'd say yes too often she had such a good time after this Trilogy she said yes straight away and so they got her back in the studio as fast as they could so that she couldn't change her Minds what like were they with Paul McGann actually Paul McGann had such a good time with the first season he was doing the second season within months because I thought oh it may be the only chance we guess in the end of course they had such a good time they stay and they keep staying on and on um I thought of the word that I was trying to think of before about the ending it was very original um I I don't think I'd seen it before and uh that I really enjoyed that because you've you know I'd seen the Space Museum and and uh from what Jonathan is about to tell us that you

28:26 know it's not it's the premise is not original but certainly the resolution was in this case and I I felt very refreshed as a result of uh of of the ending of this story a little bit it's not absolutely spoiler in the first episode there's seven deaths that you see and yet none of them end up being quiet what you expect all of them are transforming so if Johnny's had a good time with us and he he plays around with his audience knowing and I can understand that you're trying to say that you know there's a few times couldn't quite understand what's going on do you think things made sense they do all make sense but it is complicated and you have to keep going backwards and forwards in time to understand why this happened here because of this um yeah there's lots of lays this story

29:12 well speaking of Johnny Morris should we get him on that's a great idea so thank you Jonathan Morris for joining us again good to see you hey lovely to be here and I love you sir have a another trip down uh Memory Lane yes back to whenever this came out yeah so we discussing cobwebs which came out in 2010 so it's 13 years old now which is hard to believe because I remember this coming out so like it was yesterday um it's a significant script because it was it was bringing back Tegan for the first time Janet Fielding was returning she had done that one-off script four years earlier but this was now her returning it's a proper characteristic do you remember why how you got the brief for this it was uh

29:58 very important I think uh that Janet had sort of agreed in principle to come back just for I think it was three stories or something it wasn't it wasn't like um an ongoing thing at all and uh the brief was just um to make it enjoyable well I think to make it um so that it wasn't uh so that she had a lot to do lots of cool stuff to play um lots of stuff where um the characters motivations were logical and clear and um and where she gave as good as she got I mean Tegan always did that anyway but um you know I mean I know that um Janet

30:46 quite rightly sort of had complaints about how the companions particularly uh the female campaigners were sort of sidelined in dog poo uh during her time um you know I mean do you normally got quite a lot to do but you'd you'd find that um Nissa then didn't you know that if someone was awake for an episode someone else would be asleep so uh it was to make sure that she um so that it it was a good Tegan story I think essentially um and even after I'd written the first draft I got notes back from the script edit so I think was Alan Barnes got me from well um saying that I'd I'd started it with a

31:31 scene of um Nissa in a spaceship with a robot friend and he was going no no don't do it has to start 10 10 seconds after the end of Enlightenment has to pick up where Enlightenment left off and it has to be the most tiginy scene ever you know has to be um just to be arguing just to be putting her foot down and she has to be quoting her on Vanessa Tegan's Greatest Hits to sort of get back into the character you know to sort of you know this is she's back with a bang basically it's not going to be you know a story which happens to have Tegan in oh no it's just it's a Teagan story so um

32:17 and when I came to uh putting together the story the other thing was to make sure that it was about the regulars really um so episode one is pretty much just them I think we get the yeah the robot uh yeah and we have probably have a Sinister computer in there um but generally it's just the um and we might get ghosts I think there's a couple of ghosts but um uh generally it's just the regulars and even later on you know when there's the sort of the crew of this of the of the base it's still about the regulars the Cliffhangers are all about the regulars and stuff it's not what people some people might say was a a character-led story because

33:02 the characters are facing this sort of um I don't know what you encourage you call it a sort of a a Time Paradox problem a quite an abstract problem about predeterminism and how time travel works and stuff you know they and it's how they react to it you know because um the doctors going oh there's the rules of time and this is sort of nods along with him because she's very clever and taking just to the principle that goes nobody told me that he was a time I do what I like I know but he's I don't care if my future is put or date I'm not gonna do that I want to do something else sorry I I think I might have drifted into an accident there but you know what I mean yeah you're not a bad one too so so those people so you took off his

33:49 Executive Real Life did you what's an Enlightenment or did you just know that how we did it enough to go through it with the script um I had a bit of fun with it uh going from the end of Enlightenment to the beginning of King's demons it doesn't really join perfectly well um because you have taken going uh is this another black Guardian trap or something and I remember talking to someone going they should have been like a whole one of like nine nine stories where they're all black Guardian traps so so when you get to the king's demons it's the tenth one um but uh it doesn't pick up on any of the sort of issues raised in um Enlightenment it doesn't uh which is stuff I put in cobwebs like uh

34:35 turlo hasn't apologized what he was doing he hasn't um really um spoken to take about what he did about why he did what he did um we don't really learn when the doctor found out that uh terlo was trying to kill him that that sort of moment is uh underplayed should we say in uh in unlike Enlightenment uh not even sure where it is I think it's sort of around the end of part two but um you would blink you can blink and miss it to be honest um because it's not I mean it should be you know a huge part of the story it should be wow the doctor has found out that Taylor's trying to kill him he confronts him and you've got you've got a huge dramatic scene there

35:20 you've got a huge and because it always sort of felt like it was sort of um added on to an existing story there was not room for it anymore so with cobwebs I was going okay let's have some of the Fallout um it might not be um what my story is about but I'm gonna go okay when I when I'm looking at my plot I'm gonna go okay here's four minutes for the doctor and tell her just to talk about stuff which is what you do now you because in modern doctor here and stuff um if there was an issue with the relationships that come up you know if someone's suffered a loss or um been betrayed or something they talk about it afterwards um and that there's lots of drama to be

36:07 found there whereas in the 80s it was all let's try and move on move on um so yeah I was uh trying to do that in terms of Enlightenment um and the other thing of course is it sort of picks up from Terminus because it has uh Nissa coming back after 50 years whatever it is which is probably your next question go can I just jump in there because I I did notice um in cobwebs that it was mentioned that from the events of terminus to the events of cobwebs it had been two days was that expressly mentioned anywhere in the TV series or is that something it was two two days when it's all left

36:53 so the whole Enlightenment took place over 48 Hours yeah yeah I think that's been quite generous I think is it more or less takes place in real time to be honest I mean you could say it only took place in one day uh but I thought um they just kind of arrived in the morning there's a party that night they go to then it's the next day yeah so it's gonna say it's two years um because Enlightenment follows I'm from Terminus seamlessly there is that that joins up there's no Gap there so um so yeah I think I mean obviously if you're in a tardis traveling through time of space it's approximate it's never exactly four to eight hours it's just well I've been asleep twice since then so it

37:39 was probably two days well I stopped doing unconscious twice since then it was probably probably two days so there's a question how were you asked to make a 50 years older who designed the whole because I guess it's in this a tour and and taking their travel together those who wants to put those actors together so who came up with the idea of making this stuff old yeah I mean I think that was um one of the things I know that one of the reasons I think it persuaded James to come back was that it would be put in the put in the old team back together as it were where it would be her Peter Mark and Sarah and obviously as fans we go but that was

38:24 never really the team you know um they might be in two stories but uh misso and turlo barely speak to each other I mean um and so so there's not really a huge relationship you can explore well you can because it hasn't been explored on television um so it was just going okay we're putting their help that team back together um but there isn't really a gap in between maldron and Terminus to stick it in so I'm sure it was Alan Barnes idea today let's um bring back Nissa and have it set immediately after enlightenment I think I was sort of quite grumpy about that for some reason I was going let's set it after the five doctors or something but I

39:11 don't know why it was just a continuity niggle um but actually I think having it really close having it two days for them and 50 days for this 50 years is always a sort of a it's much more of a punch and also you have the the um I think which I think I explored later on in prisoners of Fate which is the fact that they haven't seen each other in 50 years means the doctor now can't go back you can't go back and and meet her in the intervening time because he's because that page of History has been written you know that that um that page of the TARDIS Wiki has already been written it can never be changed do you get a different perspective there where everything for them is recent and they're looking looking at her going oh my God you you look you know maybe 20 years older

39:58 and she's going well this is incredibly weird um you it's exactly where I left you you haven't changed a bit so and the other the other um point with that was to go okay just this has been you know it picks off from Terminus it's um but she's been working going around the Galaxy curing diseases and stuff um independently I mean she hasn't really sort of settled there and had a family or anything she's been devoted to her um her biochemistry and um but she's grown up a little bit she's not well she's sort of a sort of a Shakespearean ingenue I think sometimes in some of her stories where she's sort of they play

40:44 out the naivety this is someone who um uh has had horrible things to happen to her but she sort of she has no maturity at all I mean she's not immature she's not um petulant or childish but um there's no life experience there and I think she's got innocence always innocence yeah um whereas okay she's she's a bit tougher she's a bit um she's much she knows her own mind she's very self-confident in herself and she's not going to be able to she's not going to be a character who disappears from the scenes um you know on television she'll be sometimes there'll be scenes where this is in the room uh react react react but um she doesn't have any lines and on audio you can't do that in audio

41:32 someone has to be if someone's in the scene you want them to say something you know as soon as possible within the first there's four people in the room then generally the first four lines on that scene are those four people each having a say uh to establish their in the room so you need Nissa to be going I have an opinion I think we should do this um or I want to explain this and not carry just going what's happening doctor I'm scared I don't understand I agree you know those are rubbish things I mean they've rubbish things for um character the rubbish things for the actor to play and I think building listeners would put up with it anymore I think listeners really want the characters to be the bigger version the more three-dimensional versions that

42:19 they got in their heads when they're watching it and when they're when they're um the fan fiction and in the novels and stuff where they were much more developed more three-dimensionalist characters and I think that's what people expect quite rightly now rather than the slightly sort of um uh sort of cookie cutter Weetabix cut out card versions of the characters that you sometimes got in the 80s there's a very large time paradoxical in the at the end of well the beginning and the end of the show no spoilers but in terms of have you work through how you would have sold that Paradox before you started it was the plan all in place or did you create the situation first and then look at how

43:04 am I going to fix it yeah well there's some uh two things I mean can you make a note to ask me about where the story came from because there's a there's a story there in itself anyway um and the time Paradox thing I thought I was being terribly original uh by going they see their future cells and their their thoughts I couldn't help but uh think of the Space Museum actually when um yeah it's not remotely um but um I can remember being on a train from Greenwich with Simon Gary and I was going I've got this I'm doing this new story for big finish um and it's about the doctrines friends and they see they travel they see their

43:50 future selves now dead bodies lying and Simon said but you did that that's Festival of death you just are you doing Festival of death again and I haven't I hadn't realized that um but professor of death at the time was out of print and unlikely ever to be seen again um and my attitude was that I didn't really want to do an audio version of vessel of death because there'd be so many things in it I want to change and fix and cobwebs was basically me doing an audio adaptation adaptation of Festival death um where I take the bits of the story that were good which had potential and I get rid of all the bits that I'm

44:35 we are very much all Fair times should we say um and uh it has a different Solution that's the that's the other point is that um infested death well that was the spoiler a book from 25 years ago the the corpses are other people um it's a it's a mistaken identity whereas in cobwebs I was going we that's obviously the first thing people are going to think oh they've and so you have things like them doing you know DNA tests or whatever on the corpses to go no it's definitely them they're the right ages um and there's no way out and so and I've sort of built the constructed the plot around that I mean you notice that every

45:21 Cliffhanger is about that problem coming back um you know end of part three is they are locked in a room where they know their bodies will be found dead in 20 years time or whatever um so because it I I wanted to make more of that I thought that was a really cool idea and my solution for it which is also I thought was uh very very cool I was really excited by it when I when I came up with it because it was just um it was doing the hidden in Clear View thing um I mean spoiler warning it's a it's a it's a sort of a broken spring solution it's robots following their programming very literally and all it is is that the robots are

46:08 trying to um uh rebuild them from the inside out but they only get as far as the skeletons and then they run out of power and that's I thought that was actually quite cool because it was it's the backwards way you know it's not these are bodies that have decomposed the skeletons they're being constructed outwards and that's as far as they got um so hopefully not everyone gets that straight away hopefully it came as a bit of a oh that's actually that was quite a cool moment I've forgotten it so it was unnecessary before remembering how you solve it I couldn't remember how you did it until we got to the end I went oh that's right so yeah it was good so the other thing from Festival of death is that the

46:53 there's the computer as well that's where because I've had a computer in Festival death called Eric um and in this one he's called Edgar which uh has two sort of sources it's it meant I could do lots of King Lear type sort of uh references because empty goes mad in King Lear and is sort of wandering around them all referring to himself in the third person but also um anyone who knows 80s pop culture although the film electric dreams which has a home computer that comes to life which is called Edgar as well so I was I was going well it's the 80s again it's um you know it's Doctor Who and Tegan back together I'll put in a reference to this film and

47:39 see if anyone picks up on it and I don't think I think I had to explain it to everyone because no one who knows that film so this was the one with the fender right so am I mixing that one up a friend don't know it's um it's little sort of robot spiders called cracktots which caused no end of amusement in the recording um because obviously the documents say something like you know oh look out taking this cracked is coming and Janet filled him and go crack tits did you say crack tits and I would have to do it again so um uh I mean it was a it was a really enjoyable recording because it was you know Janet was back in the building and that was lovely um your book the book this of death is

48:26 it does it have fiddle that's obviously um no no it's it's it's it's completely original because I mean it's it's um that has these sort of spiders in it which are called oh I don't know what they're called now um arachnopods which are sort of spiders that can detach their limbs and stick them back on again kind of like um Muppets or something uh which are quite fun because I remember I just gave them the catchphrase which is um eats must have eats as they go around scuttling about the spaceship uh one of one of I mean that because like 300 pages and it has about 400 ideas in it so it's nothing it's

49:11 it's a kitchen sink type thing everything is in there far too much so where did the story come from well that that that's interesting thing um years ago back in the 90s uh when the new adventures were uh starting up I put together a pitch for one uh which is a story called The Fear which was about uh a disease that um makes you paranoid and uh neurotic like the disease like Victor syndrome in um cobwebs the same thing and it was set on a base research base and the the story was the doctor 's companion um but the time was I think was or something uh would get this disease

49:58 and so the doctor would cure the companion but then he'd have to spend the whole story preventing The Cure being transmitted out of the base because it would change history um and it's an interesting mode I remember the doctor is trying to prevent something which will save millions of lives because he's trying to protect history you know the web of time um which I think is in cobwebs a bit I think I stand there um but anyway this was the story called The Fear which I sort of worked up around 1993 uh I don't think I sent it in because I was getting I couldn't keep up basically because they kept on changing the companions in the books and I'd write like five pages

50:44 and then there'd be an announcement going oh no we're not having that we've changed our plans um and then after uh Festival death I pitched I wrote an appropriate picture again uh to BBC books and um I think it was turned down or uh instead um but I I still thought it was a really strong idea um and I thought that the idea of doing a historical story basically is it has to Follows the rules of historical but it's set in the future was um quite a cool thing to do because this is long before visit on TV

51:31 with Waters of Mars but it's a it's a similar sort of dilemma um little story uh so yeah it was a one sort of pulled out of the bottom drawer but it was also um one where I couldn't find the copy it was all from memory so it was um and then years later I found the actual um thing I submitted and it was really close so I had remembered it really well which I think has you know it shows the strength of the story if you can remember it did you you went to the recording so you what was what was it recording like uh it was um it was exciting I mean there is another story I have to tell you in a minute but um

52:16 just remind me about um the robot that's the other thing to ask me about um is that uh it was a Janet's first day back in the office as it were after 20 years or 30 years or however long it was 25 years um and so it was her first I mean she'd done the one with Joe lidster where where it was sort of um a different sort of deal uh but this was her trying to go okay you now have to play the character Tegan as you played her more or less in the 80s so it's a different sort of thing um and and there was there were just there were discussions where she'd sort of just sort of go this bit doesn't make sense

53:03 this bit in the script doesn't make sense where's the writer writer you know what is why does Tegan say this and and Sarah's going I think you'll find actually does make sense if you look at the earlier scene and computer's going of course it makes sense they always make sense and if they don't it doesn't matter and you'd have a five minute discussion where you go around the houses um changing the line and then generally go oh hang on I say it this way because of that okay yes oh and so you put it all back out was um and that was uh it meant that during the day I was working because I was either having to do quick changes or rewrites or explanations um

53:48 because uh Janet doesn't have the same sort of Science Fiction mind she doesn't you know she's not gonna be sitting down to uh watch 12 Monkeys or whatever um uh so she wasn't and with Doctor Who you're sort of working on the basis that the person listening to it is already familiar with quite a lot of sci-fi so you are doing the more difficult levels it were the most and so that was nerve-wracking to begin with and then you and then she got into the groove of it and going oh I understand what's going on there it was it was just the beginning but because I think that's my failure as a writer I think I should have written it better yeah I've had written about it could have been clear um and it wouldn't have any additional

54:33 explanations in the studio I'm sure that's not true do you want to talk about the robots other than robot this is this is what where my frustrated plan you see because um and Nissa obviously needed someone to talk to as she was going on emissions and so I wrote up this idea that she'd have a robot that um was called adric uh and she because she built it because in memory as a tribute to her daily departed um uh fellow companion which made me laugh to begin with going oh and because the press release would come out and it would be Doctor Who cobrae was with Dr Nissa Tegan turlo and

55:19 Jake and people would go mad um but the other thing I was um that made me laugh was at the time Matthew Waterhouse wasn't part of the big Finnish family he hadn't you know returned to the soul um they'd recast him I think in uh Paul Mars story um so I was going wouldn't it be funny if we brought Andrew back and he was played by Will Wheaton from Star Trek uh wouldn't that because at the time Wil Wheaton was not was not you know he hadn't done the Big Bang Theory he was still quite cheap to get I think um and I'm sure he would have loved to do it love to do a doctor who um and just the irony of being Pediatric and getting the other attic the address from Star Trek the plane uh

56:07 and um that was one of those things where I was told not we're not doing that Johnny that's ridiculous we this is supposed to be a serious a serious project so I changed him to Loki because it was all it was all tying into the sort of Norse mythology of terminus um and uh but I in my head I think Patrick would have been that would have been much fun yet because um yeah that was me that was me doing it again that was me get it but I could get him a year later or two years later I could get away with it by the time I just wanted to do um to have I mean I haven't seen when this was going oh and address here too what

56:53 Patrick no and then this sort of this little robot would trundle in with the voice of Wil Wheaton um in my head that would have been hilarious but I can see some people thinking it might be taking the Mickey because quite possibly there yeah but I think you have to have fun with this I have to have fun sometimes and um but we know we've got a very good actor in to play him uh uh which is which is quite extraordinary um Raymond so yeah so Raymond coated he's done lots of you know really good he does lots of costume drama and stuff even so it was one of those things where you should go

57:39 if I knew is we're going to get a really good act of it I'd have written the character better which is another another great lesson for a writer to go because they always get excellent actors in Jonathan you were yes um you don't write any small parts you don't you write Parts which are good for actors to play um I mean sometimes you can't sometimes it is second guard who has sees them and that's the only line you can't sometimes you can't but um generally you are there to go this actor is going to have this part on their CV hopefully you know and let's say you wanted to have a character to have a name and you wanted to be something where they get to show how good they are you know we'll show what they can do um

58:25 so yeah it was a lesson there because obviously but obviously we're waiting would have been fantastic he's a very good actor so that would I wasn't sort of writing for a bad actor there at all I'd still absolutely come in listen Johnny thank you so much for again for your time and for your thoughts and this Dwayne as a deal to ask okay well it's lovely to talk about I'm I'm always surprised that I remember anything but it does come back you've done amazingly as always as well I love talking to you thanks for your time Johnny excuse them well our thanks once again to Johnny Morris for having a chat with us about cobwebs it's always a Fountain of Knowledge isn't he he always just all comes flooding back you can't remember anything and then it just keeps going and going when he first pops up on our on our on our meetings that's the first thing he

59:10 says every time isn't it so I don't think I remember yeah um but yeah it's good I I was feeling for him though after spending a bit of time with Janet earlier this year um his his stress at what her reactions might have been to his story I could I could certainly empathize with how he might be feeling and uh how she could be a little bit imposing but once you do get to know Janet a little bit you realize that um it's nothing to worry about is it no jazz is just a big puppy she is actually one third to her don't say that very good okay so that's our two stories for uh this episode of what we like to call we've got random boys

59:57 and I think it might be time to decide on the next couple of stories for our next installment and the reason I say decide Philip is because I want to do something a little bit different of course why would we do things the same oh come on I gave you plenty of warning you did I don't know what I don't know what that cryptic message was about um I want to surprise each other with a pick for our next randomized so I've already thought of a story and because whenever we're reviewing something or recommending something you go first I think it's about time I went first what do you reckon oh okay yes so do I you go first they could look at how nice you want to go first okay there you go my my selection for for you and for us for our

1:00:43 next random boys is The Adventures of Bernice Summerfield the relics of Jigsaw fantastic I love it so I'm interested in uh Michael kilgariff and the and the K15 I think it's I think in that it's K15 instead of K1 uh but still voiced by the same actor that did it in robots so I'm looking forward to giving that one another spin filler great so how many of the box it played with you oh in a box set well since since the um the Bernice Summerfield it's only one episode is is one episode if you've got a if you've got a three-part box set let's do that too well it's easy Doctor Who I thought I'd be about southern welcome to who too

1:01:29 so you may not want to do this so you can always say no I thought why don't we do the first series of the Omega Factor oh excellent yes yes let's do it because I bought them all and I haven't yet to I've only listened to the first episode so I haven't heard the other two yet okay well it's all four sore stories in the boxes oh let's let's do it okay fantastic so that's it so for our next installment we're doing uh Benny Summerfield the relics of Jigsaw which uh which series is that from is it from about series four I think monsters and they're all great

1:02:16 yep and we are doing the first oh the Omega Factor volume one do they call it Omega or Omega depends which country you come from I don't know I always confused I always say Omega no hang on I'll be no Amiga Factor but not also will say Omega Factor but I don't know which country you've got to be from to say that well we're gonna have to listen to the box set and find out how they say it yeah they say it do they say it in the show or is it uh something that's just the title well there will definitely be the promos yep fair enough very good all right well it's been another enjoy enjoyable episode uh even albeit uh full of coughs and splatters from me

1:03:02 I haven't been too well no Johnny wasn't too well either and I yeah I mean I was six six weeks ago and I've still got the cough so it was a nasty thing this thing that's going around yeah I knew I should have had that filter on my screen thanks all right until next time thanks very much Philip and we'll catch you all later thank you Brian bye everyone this has been the Sirens of audio episode 165 randomoids 23 featuring The story's death and the Queen and cobwebs with our guest Jonathan Morris and your hosts Philip Edney and Dwayne bunny original theme music composed by Joe Kramer more about us and tickets to Katie Manning in Australia from sirensofaudio.com comment below to let us know what you thought of the episode or contact us via

1:03:48 email at Sirens of audio gmail.com or by any one of our socials thanks for listening audiophiles we'll hear you next time