Nuriyah, isn't it better to go back to Pakistan than living in UK...?!!

0:01 [Music] That's an ex-Muslim dancing. [Music] The guys spoke of God. [Music] are free thinking. I love free thinking. [Music]

0:56 I love temper. [Music] Hey Dingle. [Applause] [Music] Ashing. Ash. [Music]

1:54 free thinking. Hey thinking. Hey free thinking. Every thinking [Music] go. [Music]

2:39 Go work. [Music] Yes, that was the dingga song that we play here as an opening for almost every uh live sessions here. So thank you so much Nuria for joining with us today and hi to all. This is Nurya from UK ex-Muslim with some background from Pakistan. So um I how are you doing Nura? I'm very well thank you Arif. Thank you for having me um after all this time as I'm sure you all suggest. But thank you.

3:25 That song was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you. That that was a AI. So the lyrics was by me. So we have that song here. So I think that could really catch on, you know, at like 12:00 a.m. at some nightclub. I can imagine everybody grooving to that. So we can plant something like in a in in English and in some other languages. Yeah, we can do that. Okay. So before um you being so happy about being here, I just wanted to show you something and to the the people this is this was the message that I sent to Noria on July 18th, 2024 almost a year ago and now you are here.

4:11 So I I would say this is the longest invitation um maybe to someone who I might have sent to someone. So this message is here and um you can read it here. Can we have a live stream together especially in the wake of the UA Princess divorce announcement via Instagram. Um also happened to listen to your story recently. So I think you would be the best person to speak on this. Is that possible? So that's a question now. Open question. It's definitely possible. Oh okay. So and and and you gave me the reply uh even after I I gave you a reminder on October 17th and you didn't reply and on finally on March 12th, 2025 there was the the most awaited reply

4:58 from you and now you are here. Thank you so much for accepting my invitation and you are here now. Thank you so much for that. Well, first of all, I'd really like to apologize. Um that's not usually my style, but Not to me, not not to me. You should you should apologize to the people because they they have been asking me since long to bring you here because they are followers. Most of them watch your videos and they are huge followers. You have a great fan following here. So, you might have gone through some of the uh comments even some are some were awaiting your um your your videos and presentations. So, that's it here. Oh, lovely. Well, I'm so sorry to all of the RF's viewers and u yeah it won't happen again. Next time he

5:44 invites me on I will be here within a day. I promise you all. Ah thank you. There you go. So um can you please give a little bit of your um background? So u because uh you might have noticed about the title that I've given because u with regards to the present situations in uh UK UK being now called as the Londonistan and something known for the Islamization and Sharia for UK and many other things. Um I think um there's no difference in um in a person choosing to live in UK maybe coming from Pakistan or Afghanistan or some other place because almost it looks identical for a person living outside UK just like me or some

6:30 other people. So what's your take on that? Is my title wrong or is is there a problem with that? You know, when I read your title, I was like, "Oh gosh, that's a bit like suggestive." But then I thought, you know what? He's really not wrong. Like if I was like you and I was sitting abroad and I was just kind of looking at the headlines of what's happening on the ground level in the UK, I would start to question whether or not for somebody like me who, you know, as your song was saying over and over again is like a freethinker, but a free thinker who has come from an Islamic background, it's getting more and more difficult to live here and speak your truth, even though this is somewhere, you know, people flock to for those freedoms. So actually you're um I still would not suggest

7:18 myself to ever go back to Pakistan because that's a different ballgame completely. But England and yeah the UK is is veering closer and closer towards it with the kind of draconian approach we're taking to blasphemy and Islam and I think we'll unpack it later in the conversation but what they're starting to call here now offending the institution of Islam you know if that's even a thing. So yeah, really worrying developments coming out of here and you know very much a cancel culture for people like ourselves. So uh since you said this, I just wanted to ask you something about a person called Candid with Lumina. There's a uh YouTube channel by that name and I had uh brought her on live on my channel too. So recently I came to know that

8:05 she's facing some sort of issues and she has deleted most of her videos and she has stopped doing something. Are you aware of her her situation? Cand did with I'm aware of her channel and I've seen kind of like the things that she's been posting now and then. Um I so obviously I don't do this full-time so whenever I can and I see kind of what's happening to my understanding what happened with her is I think she would have quite open discussions with you know various um people from different backgrounds in the UK but given the fact that she was she is a British Pakistani herself I think she was calling out the community as one should um and let's not forget she is very much as far as I know um within the fold of Islam she calls herself a Muslim Muslim she I think she might be a

8:52 liberal Muslim but she's definitely a Muslim. So I think what they've done in terms of like how dangerous and kind of insular the British Pakistani community can be here is they've seen how far she's gone in having some conversations about you know really what they would call sensitive topics I guess whether it's the grooming gang scandal or like you know discussing the Israel Palestine conflict perhaps and if you don't tow the line and speak their language and say exactly what they want you to say then it is like they descend on you um in any way to kind of silence you and I think unfortunately she felt the brunt of that and it got too unsafe for her to continue. I'm guessing um this is just me as an outsider speaking I can't speak

9:37 for everything she's gone through but it looked quite like her she looked quite distraught in her in her video when she quit. Yeah. So um usually when when we do all this activism and we criticize Islam as ex-Muslims, you you might have noticed that some people come and ask us like mostly the believers that um um why why don't you just criticize Islam within Islam or just by being an insider? Um so do you think that as an insider is more dangerous than an ex-Muslim? Have you ever thought like that? That's a very interesting question actually because um I always thought theoretically it would be safer as an insider because you know you haven't crossed the the proverbial line of

10:24 actually there's no coming back which is blasphemy. Um whereas people like myself I have I've actually gone there and said I disagree with your religion. I disagree with your prophet. I don't even think he's the prophet. I think Islam is the root cause. And I always thought it was safer to kind of play within the scope of I am a believer. I'm one of you, but X, Y, and Zed are the problems within our community and we should confront them. Um, I could never personally take that stance because I see the rot from within and I see the rot is very much at the root, which is Islam. Um, so again, it's a lot easier for me to sleep at night and for my conscience to be clear when I can call it out for what it is and not try and say, "Oh, surah 434 doesn't say this, so you know, liberal Muslims are the best and these people are distorting the

11:09 text." But no, you're right. Theoretically, I would think that they would listen to somebody within the fold more than like apostates like myself. Okay. So, u Okay, so moving on um to some of your personal details. um not too much into your personal life but uh something related to becoming an ex-Muslim and how your childhood was and uh what's the story of you being an ex-Muslim? Um so it's a quite a it's quite a long story. You can sum it up. You can sum it up. Yeah, I'll say it quite concisely. Um so I was I'm a third generation British Pakistani. So I was born and brought up here in London um to quite a traditional conservative Sunni Muslim I

11:57 guess Punjabi Pakistani type family um and you know right? Yeah. Mhm. Um and so my grandfather was an imam and um you know it was just like I guess a typical family from Lahore that's not too conservative not Yeah. Exactly. And um I went I'd go to mosque every day after school. Um so that was kind of the only in like induction I had to Islam. I' I'd attend normal school. I'd go to mosque. But those classes were so kind of you know rigid and they taught you about Islam the way we should be taught. So I started to wear hijab at 9 and I really took my faith seriously. Um and this is just me bearing in mind my parents aren't that religious. You know they were kind of born and brought

12:42 up here. they were quite um liberal generally in their thinking. So it was just me wanting to do good in Allah's eyes. Um and then I started wearing hijab. Um but I would still hang out with boys. I would still play sports cuz I was quite sporty. Then I moved to Saudi Arabia and um I ended up taking off the hijab because Saudi Arabia is such a religious country anyway. You hear the call to prayer, the aan. Um there's the Which year that was? Which year? That was I was 9 years old. That was just we moved in the 2000s. Yes. Oh, okay. So that was the era in Saudi where hijab rules are still prevailing and much much uh strictly enforced.

13:30 Yes. So as soon as you turn I moved there when I was nine. as soon as you hit like 9 10 11 uh anytime you leave the house in Saudi Arabia you have to wear the abaya and cover your head it's just an expectation um cuz the mutawa that was the time when the mutawa the Islamic religious police was still looming so you couldn't be seen to be with boys so within our compound I could dress how I wanted and within school I could dress how I wanted but to and fro in public Saudi Arabia you have to show that you are covered in the black um buyer um so yeah I went to a international school there but I was very much like you know a believing Muslim inside but I came across so many other faiths and people from all over the world. I heard about the Dus religion of Lebanon for the first time.

14:16 I just like, you know, my my mind was opening. Um, and yeah, you would still kind of we'd go to do umrah um and hajj. I didn't do hajj, but we went to do umrah so many times that we did it in Ramadan and if you do um in the month of Ramadan, it's considered Hajj. So I always felt like wow you know I've done so much kind of pilgrimage at such an early age and we felt very very blessed to be living in the country which has the house of God as you know like exactly like literally we're so blessed the luckiest Muslim. We live 40 minutes away from Allah's house. We can wake up and decide to go any day of the week. Yeah. Um, so yeah, and then I so I kind of really was a believer internally. I

15:02 really believed it in my heart. And then we I would keep coming back to England for holidays. Um, and then we moved to Dubai and I thought, "Wow, this is like the perfect Islam for me. It's pretty chill, but you still hear the call to prayer. You get all the Islamic holidays. Um, but you know, I can drive. I can go to the cinema. I can hang out with boys if I want to." Um so all of the Saudi restrictions were lifted but Islam was still dominant. And then I came back to university um in England and I always had the intention to go back and practice like law in the Middle East. And to do that I had to study Sharia law. So in my university I took a module of Islamic law and again it was so strange the things that we were discussing in terms of like women's rights within a marriage and Sharia but

15:49 I was justifying it in my mind like you know Allah has his works in mysterious ways there's a reason for this um that the inequality balances out somehow um so I was writing essays defending it so still very much a believer inside but quite liberal in my outward projection and then I moved back to Dubai as an adult and um I ended up getting married to a Pakistani man who was born in Dubai though. So he was quite like uh he had quite like an Emirati like lifestyle but he was Pakistani and um duplicate when I Yes. Exactly. You know how they are there. Exactly. Most most Indians and most Pakistanis try to emulate an Arab.

16:37 inati. Oh my gosh, they they really do. And also like you see how they they just they know that they're not like there's a hierarchy and they're always trying to you know climb up the hierarchy even though you're not going anywhere in that place because only you'll never get their passport even if you're born there. Uh all of that jazz. But yeah, so when that marriage um I mean it it got it turned really bad really quickly and when I realized I wanted a divorce and I wanted to get out of this, that's when I had to confront Sharia law headon as an adult because um the Dubai police tried to put like an ancient Sharia law on me which is called da zia which means return the returning of like a

17:22 disobedient wife to her husband's house. Um and you can't leave without your husband's permission again. So in the in in a western mind you think of it as almost like you know being held hostage or being kidnapped against your will and forcibly okay that that means you are not given your uh divorce but you are held hostage at the husband's home. Yes. So if your if your husband doesn't want to divorce you and he like in this the lawyer the lawyer can find any charge to kind of put on you to allow you to you know not get the divorce and be taken back and in this case it was like it's a it's a law that like even my lawyer had to you know research because it wasn't applied for so many years.

18:08 It's quite an archaic law. I think in Tunisia and Egypt as well men use it quite often but it is within the bounds of Sharia. So if you dig deep into Sharia, the law is there to bring back a woman against her will. So he was trying to do that and obviously that like blew my mind. Um in the moment I couldn't consider the ramifications. I couldn't understand how it was related to Islam, if it came from the Sharia, the Quran, nothing. I just needed to get out and like protect myself. So when I finally managed to like like ignore that, go back, initiate a divorce myself, say that I, you know, no amount of prayer is helping. I'm not possessed by gins, there's a reason I want this divorce. Um, I forgo everything that Islamically you're given, which is

18:53 nothing, but whatever. Um, so when I decided to do that and then it just got too dangerous. I had to leave the country and months later when they finally issued me um the divorce and everything had settled down I actually researched what is thia where does it come from how can you do this to another person um and that's kind of where my journey started really doubting Islam and thinking about Sharia yeah exactly as a divine law versus you know some man-made law yeah man-made absolutely Absolutely. Yeah. So, uh so uh can you just give a contrast um between the case which was which I was mentioning you regarding the UAE

19:38 princess um she was she was able to get a divorce just by making a text over Instagram. So with that when it comes to your situation that audial um how's that possible is is there a dual standard or a dual um or a kind of a two-tier policing kind of or two-tier share yellow um yes so a few I think it was a few months later or a few years later um I wasn't keeping up with how quick the UAE was changing but it was in the time when uh Imran Khan had also divorced um to Brahim Khan uh via text message. The same kind of thing was being pushed in

20:23 in the GCC countries that now a man can divorce his wife. Um because obviously triple da like divorcing unilaterally is only given to men. First of all in Islam if you want to divorce obviously you have to go through the courts to get a haha. Um in in the Middle East it's called a which still exists but it's a new development. Islam doesn't allow it um within itself. So they started having this, you know, make make it easier because everybody was struggling in the courts to try and get a divorce. Uh, for example, what we would call like a no fault divorce or just you want a clean break, then this was the way that you could um go down. So a lot of the men had the authority to just like text their wives and divorce them. But obviously if you're from the royal family or you're, you know, from

21:09 the Shik family, you're you've got the same um um what's the word? you've got the same kind of special conditions attached to it where you can do that. Exactly. Special privileges and I think that's what she used but it's you're still not safeguarded in the sense that we saw she had to flee to London, you know, to safeguard herself and her daughter. And even in London when she got here, we weren't entirely sure if she was safe. But that's what happens is when you kind of go against the mold then you know that in even a country like the UAE because Sharia does apply um he could get the custody of the children the mother has no say in that and he could have used other laws to you know nullify her triple da she just kind of it was such a boss move what she did

21:54 because she used what men men use. There was no woman up until that point that has divorced her husband via text. So uh it's usually uh said that uh the religion lands hard upon uh people who are financially less affluent and upon women. So uh do you find that true? Oh absolutely. Yes. I think it um it it pres on both of those kind of um types of people within society. you know, it it traps women in such a way and there's so much like manipulation and there's so many abuse tactics hidden behind it, but it captures them in a way that there's this sense of almost like internalized

22:39 Stockholm syndrome that just gets stronger and stronger and it's passed down culturally obviously. So, it's really important to try and break the cycle. And then the same thing with people who are not so well off, the poorest and most vulnerable members of society. They need hope. They're the ones who, you know, are clinging to the hope that this is true because there should there should be something better than this in the afterlife. Yeah. And and they're going through this Allah knows best trial and tribulation and Allah knows best and they're suffering in the here and now for something better surely. Mhm. So uh so when you could come out of that that kind of internalized fholm syndrome did you have uh that kind of a a feeling?

23:26 Oh, like a freeing feeling or uh no that kind of a trapped feeling and the moment when you decided to go out to liberate yourself from the clutches of Islam because I was met with so much like this isn't something to celebrate. There's almost like there's something wrong with me for turning your back on something that you know generations of your family have accepted. Um it didn't seem liberating at the time. internally for me it seemed extremely liberating because now all of a sudden my entire being is not fitna and it's not you know it's just not like sinful and it's not temptation and it's not something that I need to be ashamed of or hide and all of these warped concepts that you're told as a child and remember I wore hijab so

24:13 I really believed in this nonsense for a while and then I thankfully because of like I've lived in quite a few countries around the world um u going to a very international school I never I I never wore hijab after that on my own accord thinking this is empowering. Like I never had that. I was very much quite liberal. I would question like surely God has better things to do than police what's on my head or you know whether I wore tight jeans today. I think he's got like starving children in Africa to worry about. Like I would kind of rationalize it that way. But yeah internally for me like there has been no nothing more liberating than than leaving Islam. Absolutely. So uh so when you left UK for uh I mean for your studies and for your life situations to uh Saudi Arabia and you

25:01 felt like the luckiest uh Muslim ever lived on this planet. And then when you live to uh moved to um Dubai where you found Islam to be in a beautiful blend with modern life and when you exposed got exposed to all the audials and when you decided to learn Islam in a proper way and you became an ex-Muslim and when you landed back to UK that completed a circle and what was the feeling and what was the transformation when you left as a child and when you came back as an adult um to UK? So, what was the difference and what was the feelings? To be honest, it felt like when I got back here and I left Islam and then I look back on my childhood, it's actually

25:47 like two different Englands. Like the England that I grew up in where I would walk cuz again like I'm I'm in, you know, the very similar neighborhood to where I I grew up. So, it's like my school is still nearby. I still walk around those same places. And it's when I was here and I was young and I was a Muslim and I was a hijabi girl at nine, it was like, you know, you would always notice that we're different and there's like these English white people and you're the other and you need to protect your identity or you see a pub and you're like, "Oh god, this is not our culture. We don't drink." And you know, I get told things like, "Only the devil drinks and this is a devil activity to do." Um, so very warped concepts of what it means to survive within England and then coming back and shedding Islam and

26:34 I'm like, "Oh my god, like I I love this country. I can embrace it wholeheartedly." Like from every every part of it, the pub culture mixing with I wasn't I was told we're not supposed to be friends with Christians and Jews, you know, all of that's gone out the window. So it without sounding corny and cheesy, it was almost like seeing the world with new eyes and being reborn. So So uh what was the difference of in years? Like you left at 9 and you came back in which year? Like how many years? Well, I came back for university at 18 and then I left again and came back at like 23 and that's when I left Islam. So that's yeah that's a huge difference. So um so when we talk about UK and when the world talk about UK and when u Tommy Robinson talk about UK there's a huge

27:21 difference. So um it's mostly the the Islamization of UK that's we talk about and some sort of other issues like the grooming gangs and other other things. So can you just give us some light on to such incidents and uh issues where which is politically charged with the rise of the right wing and other things. So um something about that. Yeah, sure. So obviously when it comes to the grooming gang scandals, I mean this was this was going on for a very long time. And and like if you heard my story, a lot of my life I I spent in the Middle East growing up. Um so it's not even something that I was aware of. And genuinely, even when I came back here as a 18-year-old adult for university, I still hadn't heard of what was going on.

28:06 was so hush hush and kept quiet. Um, as you can imagine when I came back to the UK and I had left Islam because you have to remember also in the Middle East we don't have uh like open access to the internet. You know, you have to use the VPN and you you you don't really get um anything that puts Islam in a bad light in the news or in your news feed. But growing up my entire life, I had just heard that, you know, Tommy Robinson was a just he's just a bad actor. He's there to stir up racial tensions. He's, you know, seriously racist. Um, and he's just essentially someone you should stay away from and somebody that deserves to be in prison. And I grew up my whole life thinking this that that was my only idea of him. And obviously when I went

28:51 down this rabbit hole of searching is Islam the truth online. That's literally what I searched to try was my first step to leave Islam. But when I searched is Islam the truth and I got more and more comfortable to like I had access to the worldwide web. I came across the the grooming gang scandals and what had happened in the UK in those decades that I had been away and it made me absolutely sick to my stomach. Obviously being a of Pakistani descent myself seeing that you know all these perpetrators had like Muslim Pakistani names. What's going on? They're from a certain area. They're targeting a specific group of these white girls. Some of them are using like some verses of the Quran to justify this. It was the most awful crimes um possible. And then who did I see that's actually speaking

29:38 out about it and calling a spade a spade? Well, one of those people was definitely Tommy Robinson. And for the first time, just like with Islam, for the first time, I didn't just listen to what I was being told by other people. I said, "Let me find out myself who this man is and what he's saying." Because to me, what I'm hearing right now, there is nothing wrong with what he's saying. this is happening in your country and the rest of the you know the rest of the people are happy to turn a blind eye to it he's the one saying actually we have a problem and if I'm connecting my dots connect correctly and thinking Islam is to blame for x y and zed and he's got the audacity to call it out and he's still being shunned as being just a racist Islamophobe then something is seriously a foot here in the UK and that's when I kind of started getting

30:23 more and more interested in in it and um I changed my stance on Tommy Robinson entirely and I was fortunate enough to sit down with him and obviously tell him that. Okay. So, u we usually hear about Pakistani descendants um part of this grooming gangs. What's wrong with the Pakistani men? Is there a real problem or is it just because of the um the what do you say it's a it's a sampling bias or something like that? No, I mean look, so if you look into like obviously every every country has its, you know, goods and badms, you have bad apples, uh, wherever you go. But in

31:12 this situation, what what really strikes me as a problem is the fact that not only can we just say that the majority of the perpetrators who are engaging in this are like either Pakistani Pakistanis or British Pakistanis. So even you know ones that are essentially here for a long enough time to get the citizenship and you'd hope they would have integrated and assimilated more even they're involved. But the majority of the perpetrators actually come from even like a similar area in Pakistan called Mirbour. um there's a mir yeah in Pakistan and there is a long history it's it's I think it's within the Kashmir region and just on the the side of Kashmir um but there's a long history of migration of Miris into England and

31:57 they've settled in these kind of you know various areas especially up north um and what they've done there is you know really kind of uh they they they it's almost like a I hate to use the word ghetto in that sense but it's very much like you will only find a massive conglomeration of Mirori Pakistanis in that area. So you've had a lot of white flight essentially like the white people have moved out and just left them to it. So there's full-on areas like Bradford and Rodale and a few others where it's literally considered like a mini Pakistani village type situation. Um and the issue is is because they are all from that similar area, they have their own codes of you know honor and protection. So they won't they won't

32:43 snitch on each other if something as bad as the, you know, systematic rape of white British girls is happening. They still wouldn't tell on their neighbors uncle or their cousin's dad or, you know, whoever's perpetrating this. And so, yeah, it is a serious problem within that demographic. And in the UK, we've been so scared to acknowledge that just out of fear of, you know, community relations and and community cohesion. Um but it it is definitely there is something wrong with that cohort of Pakistani migrants who have come to the UK and settled here who are engaging in this kind of behavior disproportionately. Um and we need to start saying that we need statistics and we need those statistics to be out there in the open

33:30 for people to acknowledge this. And this isn't this isn't you know a we're not taring every British Pakistani with this brush. We're not saying all not #notall Pakistanis, but where there's a problem, you've got to acknowledge it. So, um, has the UK government u done anything about this or are they willing to do something or what do you think that's what they are going to do about this? Well, since um obviously Tommy Robinson um the Maki Oliver Foundation and various other people uh Raja Mia, a lot of voices have come forward really kind of you know discussing this and saying we cannot let this slide anymore and then obviously Elon Musk the richest man

34:16 in the world came out and actually you know mentioned it on X which sparked a whole another conversation and level of debate in the UK which which I'm very grateful for because it needed to happen. And then you've got people, you know, weaponizing it and using it for their own political agendas that each political party blaming each other. Um whereas the public are just demanding an open inquiry across these cities where this has happened. Um, so they've released a documentary as well on TV documenting exactly what happened and it's it's come into the public domain again as a conversation, but we are far from addressing what happened. We're far from giving any sense of justice to so many of these victim survivors who still were not believed even up until very

35:03 recently. Um, so yeah, I think there's still a lot of work to do when it comes to that. But thanks to very powerful, influential voices, people, politicians have had to face it and confront it head on now. And people like Tom Robinson who were once vilified, sorry, are now being, you know, people are saying, "Wow, he was right all along on this." Mhm. Mhm. So, uh uh can you spot any other new faces or voices who can side with Tommy Robinson or with this issue? Any new voices? Pardon? Any new person coming up? Oh, there's there's plenty if you if I like just look at the kind of um the like the public domain in in the UK now more and more I mean even politicians even the um they have

35:50 Yes. even like you know people who are trying to run for uh the London uh the mayor of London candidacy. people now when before they would be quiet like even mainstream politicians um granted the mainstream political parties and mainstream news still try and stay away from acknowledging Tommy Robinson for the good work that he's done but um we we're seeing a lot of kind of this anti-woke um anti-ainstream independent media and independent journalists and independent politicians come out and there's a huge wave of support behind this line thinking where you know it's it's okay to say Islam might be a problem in this case. It's okay to say there's immigrants who have not assimilated and

36:36 they are preying on white British girls and it's okay to say these things and they don't care anymore about the label being called racist or islamophobic because that label doesn't stick anymore. They tried it on Tommy Robinson for what 20 odd years um and now it's just not working. That's spent already. Yeah. So um one another allegation or a black mark against Britain um is about having the parallel Sharia quotes. So um is it really running and is it really causing a problem especially for the Muslim women because I've seen some some videos and uh news coming from UK that uh these women they were forced to

37:21 criticize Islam for the situation that they were facing out of this Sharia courts especially with regards to their family rights uh due to some of their marital discords and some other issues related to that and some property rights. So how is this parallel uh Sharia courts running alongside the the legal system? Uh what is it causing there? Yeah. So you know how kind of I described that there's areas in in England which are predominantly Muslim dominated in areas like that. Um what you see is like you see a big Islamic community center or a Muslim council that sit and at the head of that council there's obviously an imam and as when I say like because it is essentially a

38:08 parallel city within a bigger city because their own laws. Exactly. They're going to their halal shops, you know, they're not really mingling with the the native population, so to speak. And when it comes to matters of like, you know, civil matters, family matters, uh matters of legality, divorce, inheritance, instead of using British law that actually operates and is still the, you know, um the predominant law in this country. I'm not saying Sharia uh can override English law. Absolutely not. But what they're doing is they don't even get the like UK law involved. They just go to their imam and they say, "Oh, I want a divorce or you know so and so died and I need my inheritance." And because of that, this imam actually has

38:53 access and he's got the power to rule over this entire community. And that's when you find rulings exactly like you'd find happening in the back quarters of Pakistan or any other Muslim dominated country where you know women are encouraged not to get a divorce and you'll said no no no give your husband another chance even if he's beating you black and blue give him another chance you know for the sake of the kids for the sake of not breaking apart your family or an inheritance matters you're just given what the Quran ordains you're not given here it's 50/50 off the bat but you know So in all of those ways where a Muslim woman naturally would think I would consult an imam instead of using this secular law which is available to them, that's what they choose to do. And so we've got a lot of

39:39 Muslim councils that have now come up in most of these regions even here in London. Um and they manage over familial affairs like that always to the detriment of women. It's very difficult for women to get divorced. Is it something which is similar to what you see in Pakistan? Anyway in India we don't have something like that but is it something because Britain UK being a democratic country how come they allow such things because it's against the secular principles. Absolutely. I mean, and it's just all done under the guise of, you know, you were allowed to get a consultation from a religious figure if you would like that before you engage the law. And and don't like make no mistake or if they're still doing so many things that UK law

40:25 isn't involved in. For example, in the UK, bigamy is illegal. you know, you can't have two wives at the same time, but they will officially register one wife that they're married to, then they'll bring another wife from Pakistan and uh she'll just not be on any paperwork at all. So, in the state's eyes, that marriage doesn't exist. But de facto within that household, the man has two or three or four wives. So, uh a lot of this thing is a lot of this is happening under the radar of the official kind of, you know, um at a state level. And so behind the scenes, it's exactly as you said, the same manipulation and tactics and outcomes as you would find in like a country like Pakistan. Even though UK law would give

41:12 you so many more rights when it comes to custody, when it comes to divorce, when it comes to inheritance, and yet they think that that's their only option. Okay. So uh along with this um can you comment on the two-tier policing in UK where they had a blind eye towards the Islamic extremist factions and some of the perpetrators behind some of the greatest pro Palestine pro- Hamas um protest and all. So they were they were not given their due um punishment for causing atrocities in the cities and that was an allegation against the police for turning uh blind towards them. So how how is that?

42:00 Yeah, it's just as you said there's been now like people have actually coined it two-tier policing, two-tier care for two tier star. Um because yeah, especially under uh like Mark Rowley, the head of Metropolitan Police, under his kind of leadership, we we every weekend when there's, you know, massive pro Palestinian uh rallies and demonstrations flooding the streets of central London, um they get up to no good. Like they, you know, all sorts of vandalism and harassment and things like that of actual other businesses of people. And yet we see the police barely acting or heavy-handed. As soon as it comes to, you know, a protest, for example, of not even going to call them

42:46 like n patriots, literally British patriots, it's a different ballgame altogether. They will they will be looking for like one tiny thing to go wrong for them to clamp down hard and show pro like make an example out of these people. Um, and this has been happening consistently. So much so that these, you know, people are saying that the UK is being laughed at across the world because this is allowed to happen. And on on the flip side, uh, Jews now feel unsafe walking around London. Um, you know, you you can't you can't hold a simple conversation or a vigil for the hostages because even that could get trampled on by pro Palestinian um protesters. And the police will take a completely different approach. I mean you see they're locking up people here

43:32 for for tweets for for hurty words. Mhm. And how do you manage the Dawa gangs in UK like Muhammad Hijab then Ali Dawa and um some some people like them? So who are too much on on the streets and over the internet um and even the the speaker's corner which is a happening place for this dawa gangs and we are also seeing some of the Christian uh evangelists uh face on debating with these Islamic guys and all. So, have you gone there or what's your experience with them? Oh, honestly, it's actually kind of sad because I when I was young, we used to go to speaker corners a lot. It was like a really fun thing to do on a Sunday.

44:18 Um, something my Yes. Yes. Because as I said, um, growing up here again, my parents were, you know, they're quite well educated and quite my my dad always wanted to show us what free speech looks like and the beacon of of democracy. So he would take us there and say look everyone here is free to you know express their ideas and this is an actual beacon of pillar of democracy. So I had a lot of respect and a lot of affinity for speaker's corner. Um and now how I deal with the dhawa gangs is I just would not if someone even paid me step foot in speaker's corner because it has turned into such a sorry to say but an absolute show. Um you have I don't know if you know of hot tash. Um have you heard of her? Yeah I am. Yeah, she got stabbed. Oh, exactly. I mean,

45:06 this is this is the kind of level that they would uh stoop to that, you know, someone could just stab you and run away. It's just really not worth it. I know I know that the Christian preachers take on the Muslims headon, and I love watching those um interactions on YouTube from the safety of my home, but I would that's more safer. I would definitely not absolutely. But I will say that I think the um the appeal of people like Muhammad Hijab and Ali Dawa is diminishing um because they have done such terrible antics in their own light. They've not showed themselves in such a good light that I know plenty of British Muslims who say, "Oh my god, they do not represent us and they do not represent Muslims or Islam." So Mhm. It's nice to see videos when Ali Dawa is live in some random area of central London in the

45:52 freezing cold and he's trying to beg people to stop and look at Qurans and no one's really interested. Uh things have changed. It feels like it feels like hopefully the Dawa gang influence is is diminishing. Mhm. So that's a great news for us a time to celebrate and also hope so. Yeah. And and uh is this speaker corner just for religious talks or don't they speak anything else than this religion? Is is it just a place to discuss religion? No. Obviously religion takes over because it's so sensitive and controversial. But I mean literally any you can get on if you ever come to England RF. I mean I would have showed you back in the day but I probably won't show you face to face now. But you can

46:38 do oh so you might see it yourself. So you can prop up a little box, stand up and you can start talking about anything that your heart desires and that's the whole purpose of it. that was its you know initial inception was for that but I think recently the speaker's corner is known for the the the commotion surrounding the religious criticism and other things mostly it is happening there right um okay so u moving on um how do you see India especially when I speak as an Indian the connection for me u from my childhood with Pakistan was the the cricket that we played So the teams Pakistan versus India that was uh the greatest moment when we used

47:26 to remember some of the greatest players but right now we are seeing some of the greatest players like Afridi Inamalhak then many other Mandanda there were many other people they are turning out to be later on in their lives like hardcore Islamists acting like um religious cult figures and speaking someone like them and all. So what is making them go that way? What's wrong with them? I think this is um the nature of the game in a country like Pakistan, you know, where once your cricket uh cricket sorry, once your

48:11 cricket career dwindles, you are essentially going to be like a almost like a a scholar of Islam or you know a secondary scholar of Islam and you just beat the drum of religion and that's kind of what you fall back on. you know that it's it's as you said like it's almost like tried and tested. Mhm. But but it's not just after the cricket. Even on the field we have um some videos were circulating where um I don't remember exactly who was that who was he was talking to a Christian Batman batsman while walking and he was trying to convert him while on the field walking out of the field they were trying to convert. So this sort of religious communication happens 24/7.

48:59 So uh and and even that is triggering some responses. Even in India we uh see the rise of the right-wing here when they as a response to these kind of religious display on on the field they chant jiram and other things and that goes on to another level of quarrel and discussion and debate and uh this is how it is radicalizing the people. So on one side what we are seeing here is that Islam comes always as a as a problem maker and along with that if a country is or a country can be associated to that that happens to be Pakistan always or most of the times. So do you think that this is something to do with their not just about trying to be relevant in

49:44 the in the in the society after you are left out of the games or anything more than that? Is it their their motivation for being spiritually to be exposed and to um portray themselves as a true believer or something like that? Oh, most definitely. I think it's like part and parcel of Islam. You know, if you the reward you get for converting somebody Yeah. non-Muslim is I don't know, however much you get and you get the highest level of heaven. Um so with in Islam you're always kind of trying to do dawa to convert somebody and I think we've seen that in the Pakistani team with um Ysef Yana I think he was Christian when he joined the Pakistani

50:30 team and poor guy couldn't even get through playing his career with them without converting and wearing you know adorning such a big beard and then showing bowing down every time he hit a century and doing such the same thing with um Danish Canaria although I call him He was the one Hindu player in the Pakistani team and I cannot imagine the conversations they would have with him probably in the locker room or you know on their days behind closed doors trying to convert him to Islam and I think he actually tweeted about it how intense the the dawa was from them. So it's definitely it's definitely this problem of you know the whole concept of Pakistan as a country for Muslims born out of religion and know the la largest

51:15 migration in history for religious purposes and then Islam itself calls you to invite other people to Islam because they're all on the wrong path according to to a Muslim and it's selfish in the sense that they will be rewarded for it eternally. M so what you said right now it's the what you said the largest migration in the name of religion right even Indians most of the Indians and some of the the the so-called woke people they have forgotten that and they they see everything in in in a in a way to save Islam and to deflect any sort of criticism that might land upon Islam so they even try to obscure that fact the the migration which was in the name of

52:01 religion. So um I just want to hear from you your opinion on India and the any uh comments over the recent the Pahelgam attack or something like that. Well yeah first of all it's um you know my heart goes out to all the the the passengers or the families of the passengers of the the recent um Yeah that's a plane crash air incident. Exactly. Yeah. that that was heartbreaking. Um again, India's experienced some incidents recently. So yeah, the the terror attack that happened was absolutely shocking. When I when I saw that as well, I had to watch it three times to think, is this really real? Is this reality? I think I saw the video of the man paragliding

52:46 um and people kind of dropping ziplining, sorry. Yeah, ziplining and people dropping dead uh behind him. And I just I could not believe my eyes and I just so obviously my view of India is different from what it was before and obviously as it is now because I I was now I'm curious um obviously before it was uh so cricket was the main kind of you know all of our the connection yeah rivalry and connection would come out on a on a field of cricket. So that's where all the the hype would be channeled. But there was definitely some kind of you know Pakistan was born out of Islam and India

53:32 was where the pagan religion won. I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but that's how Islam views it. Right? So growing up in a Pakistani household um when you see Bollywood and you see them doing the Hindu prayers and pujas and stuff you're always told like this is this is the worst. This is shik. this is like why we had to separate from these people because you know um this is this is what they believe and it was it was awful. Um but again so so so you mean to say that that was always mentioned to you even while you were a child or regarding the so whenever you see a movie or something you will be told that this is sh this is uh infidels doing this or cafes these

54:17 words were used. Yes. when like you we weren't really allowed to watch not not it was again from like the older generation you would have to yeah you would they would be like why are you watching something if it was in the middle of a scene of like a puja or like if you know we're young and I'm singing like uh om shandi or like you know doing the reciting the prayer cuz it's on a Bollywood film I would be in trouble for reciting something that was so uh like yeah it was what Fidel's recite and that's shik. They're associating partners to Allah. They're worshiping idols. Um but again like I said I was growing up in a different world. So it was more banter and fun. I grew up having so many Indian friends. So we

55:02 would just do you know the normal Pakistan India banter when there's a match going on. Uh but yeah it's it's kind of now more that I see for example in that terror incident that there is no questions about it. Islam is the problem. Um what and actually you would be really interested in in absolutely. Okay. So and you would be really interested in what I did when I first left Islam is I always struggled to as a Pakistani deal with the the Kashmir issue like who does Kashmir really belong to? What happened? So when I again had fresh eyes, I actually sat down with a pen and a paper and I watched every single documentary and read every article I could on the issue and I was actually doing a tally of who

55:48 started it like who's causing the problems here. Is it Pakistan? Is it India? to and genuinely speaking I know that this is like my childish way of trying to deliberate what happened but each time I pointed to I didn't have this affinity to Pakistan or Islam anymore that I could say actually they were the aggressors there was a skirmish they're they're you know killing the Kashmiri pundits they're doing this and I could actually call a spade a spade and say you know what good for India every right to defend itself kind of the same principles I apply now to the Israel Palestine conflict it. That's it. My thinking has changed a lot. People find it so difficult to break down the issue and to come to the the final picture in a in a simplified manner. It's very difficult for the people and

56:35 I'm glad that you did that and at least that's a model for the people at least they can try doing this. I was not able to explain how I did this. So you made it simple. So thank you so much for that. No problem. I have to do it from my own mind. Ah yeah that's something cool like yeah that's the that's that exactly what happened like you you break down the issue you mark the boxes and you just tally finally and you will come to a come to a conclusion yeah if you have no dog in this fight let me see what's actually what the facts are yeah yeah you have a compliment here I can just that's she cracked it and verbalized it well thank you so much thank you Thank you. Appreciate that. So that's what

57:22 that's what it is. So uh yeah. So before we uh conclude um so this is so happy to know from you that and also um we have seen some videos and some news coming out. We we only got that exposure to the Pak what's going on in Pakistan through these videos and interviews. So that's why I'm using that as a reference. Um this is something about the madrasas which is um teaching uh something like earth is flat and when the kid is asking the moola that but no we we we are taught in our schools that earth is round and it's moving and it is it's not static. The moola is correcting that kid. Have you seen that video? So

58:08 is it really happening in Pakistan or what is it like what is being taught in the schools? No, it's it's absolutely that that that's what's being taught. And I mean it it's if you come out of the Pakistani education system and have some iota of critical thinking, I salute you because that is science. This is what you're being told is science. And if you're in a normal school, not even in a madrasa, and you're told that this is what science says, but this is what the Quran says, go with what the Quran says because it cannot contradict Allah. So you put side by side in in um in the normal schools. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Okay. And it's put side by side and you're you're taught that that

58:55 actual scientific fact is a theory. So that's why when they they think of like gravity as a theory and stuff, they genuinely think it's a theory. They don't understand the definition of what a scientific theory is. Okay. It's it's so messed up. Okay. So uh and and some other videos where when the random kids are asked about um what do you think about India? They at the moment they say um India is our enemy country and they ask these children why why are they your enemies? The answer is that they are coffers. So why is it so like even is is is this is something which is being taught to the children in the madrasas or

59:40 something like that to see to be seen as enemies. You see, I think it's a it's a double-edged sword because like I was growing up in the UK and I was fed little bits of, you know, the similar things you would hear in in back in Pakistan like why are you watching them worshiping idols and this is why we're so different and you know uh Hindus commit shik and that's the you know that's why we separated from India. But I think you've got two things at play. So you've got obviously the um religion itself, Islam, which looks at the Hindu religion as being the worst sin that you could possibly do on this planet is associate, you know, multiple gods to God and and things like that and worship an idol, which is what Muhammad broke in

1:00:26 the garba. So it's like you're reverting to what Islam came to, you know, say is the truth. So you've got that. So you knew about this prophet breaking the idols in in the in the Cabba as a Muslim. Yes. Yes. Yes. You knew that? Yes. Really? Oh. So that's very important because when we speak about this hadith now I would say if you ask n out of 10 Muslims would say they have not heard something about that because we these people are totally unaware of that. So for you this is something which is usually quoted to make make the or to to ignite that kind of a a a kind of a an aversion towards this kufur or the

1:01:12 people the idol worshippers. Yeah. To show you like how grave of a sin it is to worship idols that that's how much you know strange that's where Islam came from essentially the birth of Islam. So there's that and then there's obviously the historical narrative at play. So you've got both of those things like Pakistan separated from India because of this we could not live together. Um and then the Pakistani education system is giving you all these propped up heroes from like you know like the Muggles, the Ottoman emperors and all of these people and they're trying to find some connection to who they are even though it makes no sense because you know those aren't those aren't your national heroes. None of those are. Um, and so those two things combined are a deadly

1:01:57 combination. The the nationalism and the Islamic theology, what it tells you about Hindus. And you bind that hatred together and that's how an average Pakistani who just believes everything they're told would get the hatred for India within them. Okay. So uh do you think that just like uh how you fight this anti-semitism which is part of even the textbooks in the Middle East and even in in in Gaza or West Bank um just like that do you have a a kind of not I'm I'm not saying that it's part of the textbooks but at least part of their curriculum or their usual communications within the academic uh settings something like anti-India positions are usually fed into the minds

1:02:43 of these young children. Is it happening? Um I so I've never been to through the Pakistani education system or been to school there. So I can't I probably wouldn't be best to comment on that but there is a purely nationalistic element. I've seen textbooks where you know you're very proud in in the nation of Pakistan and I'm guessing with that comes a a little bit of little bit of you know our separation from India. Yeah. Yeah. But I I I wouldn't I wouldn't be best placed to comment on that. Thankfully, I didn't go through that education system. Yeah. Oh, great. So, okay. So this this was so interesting uh especially lot of new information regarding the idol worship and how you see the cafes and all and

1:03:29 can you just before uh we wind up this uh something about the minority persecutions that's happening in in in Pakistan and how that's not well addressed and that's even um even hidden from mainstream and what's happening to this uh minor minorities, Christians, Hindus, and ex-Muslims. Well, what's happening to them is perfectly what happens to minorities under, you know, Islamic dominance. I think that's a big problem with a country like Pakistan where you call yourself the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. you have it enshrined in the constitution that only Muslims um of a

1:04:14 certain flavor, you have to be a Sunni Muslim can hold positions of leadership. Um so yeah I just think that there's been a continual it's very sad actually if you look at the statistics of how many Christian um the Christian population that used to thrive in Pakistan the Hindu minority that used to thrive in Pakistan the Ahmedi uh you know minority that that is still there it's just the numbers are dwindling every like I actually stop looking because it's it's almost like what you see what happened to Jews in the Middle East you know the number and and Christians in the Middle East. I I always And they're not migrating anywhere. They are just coming down. Exactly. They are just coming down. And um you know, you hear the craziest ways

1:05:00 that they are being persecuted and like somebody drank from somebody's uh like well uh or somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. the I mean it's it's turned into like almost a pogram in Pakistan, a situation where you can you can dislike your neighbor for one thing and you can throw the fact that you're a Muslim and the whole law on them and the because the punishments are so severe for apostasy and blasphemy in Pakistan that you know it's gone so ridiculous the games they're playing with religion there like institutions like KFC or McDonald's are trying to put like bismillah signs outside so that they don't get like, you know, looted or burnt and arsonists don't blow them up.

1:05:48 Or if you take down a sign that you don't know has an Arabic word in it because you're not from there and you're an expat worker, what can happen to you? Or I mean, it's it's actually very pathetic. The fact that you've now got them saying blasphemy extends to beyond just the prophet, it extends to the four rightly guided Khalifs or, you know, the the blasphemy extends to the prophet's family. It's it's getting more and more draconian as the years go by. And I just think that if you are a minority living in in Pakistan, despite that the fact that it might be your homeland, it is not the place for you at all. You have to be a Sunni Muslim man to thrive in Pakistan. It's what I always say. Okay. So, uh Pakistan is also home to the the Jamaat Islami, the Maudi and all. So, um

1:06:36 what has happened to this Jamaat Islami? Are they still alive there or do you have any idea about that? Like Jamat Islami because even in India we have the Jamat Islami which has grown or metamorphosed into another form where they have um come to a conclusion that they had to accept secularism and democracy. So what's the situation of Jamaat Islami in your country? it means in Pakistan as far as I know they still exist and they're very much still trying to flex their own um authority and their own kind of flavors of Islam and a lot of these slogans that we hear come out of Pakistan like even the worst ones in terms of like beheading and the chants that get popularized exactly they stem from um movements like

1:07:25 this and so there there's no kind of quashing them at the moment and I That's what is the most dangerous thing. You've got all these various extremist factions in Pakistan all kind of trying to power grab but their influence is so strong because as you said if uh religion has a hold on a very illiterate and impoverished class of society and then you've got plenty of women also who you know would would not see the wood from the trees in terms of how brainwashed they are by this religion. Um, and so poverty, illiteracy, and having all that much control can go a very long way in a country like that. But again, I because I'm I'm quite far removed from that situation, and I've never really been that heavily involved in Pakistani politics, I wouldn't be best placed to

1:08:11 talk about the uh the ins and outs of the movements there. I it's too much for me. I I it's too intense. Okay. So, uh, thank you so much, Noria, for the enlightening. very interesting talk that you gave the the points and the the reflections and all everything I I think that was really helpful for the people and um before we end the discussions here do you have anything in your mind which you wish to convey which we have not talked about um no just thank you so much for having me on and when I I look at your page and I see your poem that you've written about all the exes that you are. I just it makes my heart warm because those are

1:08:58 all the right exes. I I love I love those exes that you have become and the skin that you've shed. So I have to add one more one more stanza. It's about exwoke I haven't added there. Beautiful. We wait for it. So that's the final one. Not the final one. The latest one. Okay. The latest one. It's never final. Never final. Yeah. So thank you so much. So um we'll be in touch and we will be coming up with uh more news from uh Pakistan um UK and I hope we can cover more things politically and Islamically and for the attention of our viewers um Nura's channel the name is holy uh holy

1:09:43 humanist humanist yeah holy humanist yeah you can search and find that or if any of our admins who are there if you could just paste a link here we and just show it up so that people can subscribe to her channel and I would say um one of the most active ex-Muslim um which I have seen and I would even say that you um Haris Sultan Nura apostate prophet and there are a few handfuls of ex-Muslims who helped me becoming an ex-Muslim that's one part yeah so we were all absolutely honored growing together I would say but at before you came before me so just happened to view your channels and all and that was really helpful and uh way

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