Perspective: 'Deepening India-Brazil ties' | 08 July, 2025

0:13 Namaskar viewers. Hello and welcome to Sunset TV. I'm Tina Ja. You're watching Perspective. After a productive participation at the BRIRC summit in Rio de Janeiro, Prime Minister Narendra Modi arrived in Brazilia on Tuesday for a historic state visit. the first by an Indian prime minister to Brazil in nearly six decades. He was warmly received at the airport by Brazil's defense minister and welcomed with a vibrant sambar performance, a traditional Brazilian cultural expression. The prime minister also received an enthusiastic reception from the members of the Indian diaspora who gathered in large numbers to greet him. Touched by their affection, Prime Minister Modi called it a memorable welcome and lorded the community for maintaining strong ties with their Indian roots. During his stay in

1:00 Brasilia, the Prime Minister will hold bilateral talks with President Lu Inario Lula Dilva with a focus on deepening the strategic partnership between the two countries in key areas of mutual interest. A set of agreements is also expected to be signed. So in this edition of perspective, we're going to unpack the key takeaways from Prime Minister Modi's engagements from the brick summit in Rio to the bilateral leg in Brazilia and explore how this visit could open a new chapter in India's partnership with Brazil and also the wider global south. Joining me are two very distinguished guests. Let me begin the program by introducing them to you. It gives me immense pleasure to welcome former ambassador Dr. Deepak Bora. Ambassador, pleasure to have you with us on the program today.

1:47 Also also pleased to welcome Mr. Vive Mishra, deputy director, strategic studies of RF. Mr. Mishra, glad to have you with us on this broadcast as well. Ambassador, allow me to begin the program today with you. So from the early years of diplomacy to today's strategic partnership, how do you see the India Brazil relations having evolved over time? Well, thank you very much. It's an honor, privilege to be with you. I learned from you. And of course, Mr. Vive Misha, professors up, Dr. Vive Misha is going to teach me a lot more than I do. I've been to that country. I fell in love. My body came away several times. My heart stayed behind. You know, in the common perception, Brazil is known as the land of sambar and football. There used to be, you're too young to remember, there used to be a character called King Pelle, probably

2:34 the greatest footballer of all time. Uh he was a mestizer. was half uh I think half Spanish and half local whatever but he was quite amazing but there's a lot in Brazil beyond that and you've rightly said that now it's time that we move beyond the stereotypes just as you know India is no longer bat is no longer seen as a land of snake chambers and so on there's a lot more to Brazil than football and samba there is technology there is there is environmental sustainability it's been through a severe economic crisis is in the mid uh of the in the middle of the last decade there was recession they've had issues there of course and then nothing can impact their optimism there's a common saying in Brazil which I heard and which

3:20 I love which is God is Brazilian so they say that we have all kinds of issues but then God will help but not in a Christian sense it says God will help us come back and we'll bounce out of our crisis etc prime minister's visit ma'am let me put it to you like this I we are trained to look at both the positives and the negatives in a relationship. All the things that is going on today, Wikipedia will tell you or the website of our embassy in Brazilia will tell you all the wonderful things we are doing this, we are doing that. I've been doing that as I was ambassador in six countries. What I remember very clearly is that uh when my late father was involved in the liberation of Goa, the Brazilians got very angry and said, "Don't you dare take Goa because the

4:05 Portuguese are our buddies. We're a former Portuguese colony, etc., and you can't do this. You're bad fellows. It's a violation of international law." And we told them to go fly a kite. Then the relationship kind of remained stuck over a period of time. And then I think it was in the last 20 years with president Dilma Rusev the woman she was very fond of India I had met her and then of course she was impeached and I don't know what's happened to her now the Brazilians are very good at impeaching this judaza that would have been my next question because when I was reading about India Brazil relations I did come across this aspect and and the long gap in in uh the India Brazil relationship but over the years we we are seeing you mentioned the last two decades or so we've seen India and Brazil move from being distant partners uh to becoming in many ways

4:52 active collaborators. So how do you see this shift? What's changed in recent years to bring about this renewed energy into I'll tell you what it is. I'll tell you what it is. One travel has become a lot easier and then we are members of that uh uh hard-hitting organization. You know you throw bricks at each other. I call it you know one is sansa bricks and we founding members of IPSSA and then we are part of the G4 by the way we are along with Germany and Japan we are saying guys throw out the existing UN security council permanent members let us in so there's a number of things on which now the the viewpoints are coalesing are converging and may I also tell you ma'am that Brazilians have this great tradition of hounding their former presidents Dilma Rusev herself was was

5:39 impeached and so was This guy the president fellow he was in jail and then the previous guy who came to India as chief guest at republic day three or four years ago now he's also being impeached and I think he's going to jail or something he calls it a witch hunt Donald Trump of the United States and said whose great buddy he was and don't you dare touch him because he was letting my companies go into the Amazon and clear the forest and get all the wood and all kinds of funny thing but between India and Brazil I believe on both sides there is respect for the achieve achievements of you know Brazil like we have vision 2047 to be a developed country they have vision 2050 not many people are aware of this they also want to be they have lots of income inequalities the genie coefficient is horrible in Brazil very rich people very poor people corruption happy birthday

6:27 look under the carpet you'll find lots of issu and yet they're a very resilient happy people so the understanding came when we started interacting they joined the bofuel alliance they are part of the solar alliance they began to understand that India has a to offer India that is bat the technology the achievement the money the development and going forward steadily 6.8 8 7 7.5% growth. It's a dream for the Brazilians. So they began to look at us with a new not just yoga and and cinema but beyond that to hardcore economics. And we similarly said these guys are very good in petroleum. They're very good in this that and the other space technology. Let's move forward. And then one thing ma'am I'll conclude. Professor Mishra will tell you much more. Both of us have a very healthy distrust of a country.

7:12 You've heard the name. The president is a chap called tingling dingling ping pong or something. It's called China. The the Brazilians don't like the Breton road initiative. Neither do we. They don't want to be anything to May. I tell you something. In 2020, when I went there, 2021, when the Chinese virus was ravaging the world, I saw in Brazil outside the Chinese embassy, Professor Mishra, there were demonstrators carrying plaqueards saying China lied, people died because China said, "Oh, no, no, this is nothing. This is a mild flu, etc." They were very sensitive about it. A huge country. That's why a lot of our chaps have gone and invested in agriculture and they have not so many people compared to us. So they don't like China at all. The Chinese ambassador also went around saying you guys are terrible. You have mental virus all kinds of funny. They're idiots the

7:58 Chinese. So I believe that Brazil and India have this common element also. But other than that I don't see anything we are doing today to hurt each other's interests. I rest my case. We are natural partners. The distance not withstand. Sure Mazda. We'll come back to you and try and understand what newer areas of uh uh cooperation can we explore and how can this visit further add momentum. Uh but uh let me bring in Dr. Mishra here. Uh Dr. Commissioner uh Ambassador spoke a lot about how uh perhaps our approach uh and our convergence uh in many areas has changed in recent years but in terms of strategic thinking regional outreach how do you think how has India's approach to Brazil also in the larger context also to Latin America more

8:44 broadly changed in recent years and especially under Prime Minister Modi are we seeing a more intentional pivot to engage with this part of the Um, thank you for having me and you know everything that was so eloquently laid out by Ambassador Bora. I think let me u let me at the outset put you know put across a few points and reiterate in fact some of the points that have been mentioned. One is of course that the tyranny of geography as was said has been uh removed and you know travel has become easy. There's more peopleto people contact there's more cultural contact as a result in uh as a consequence of that. Um second, Brazil is is one of the largest country in in the continent. Um and just on the backyard, you have the United States which has a different policy towards

9:31 Latin America historically has had um and President Luca Lula of course positions himself on a certain um on a certain um spectrum of politics and therefore has difference differences with with the United States. um and therefore is a natural coalition for him to settle in bricks and takes that take that leadership uh uh further. Um so I think from the point of economics you you have seen a revivalism in the India Brazil connect from the point of leadership in both countries but particularly from a consistent policy outlook since 2014 under under this government so you've you've seen a consistency in that in that policy um economic uh relationship of course you've seen new elements being added

10:18 recently we've come across the fact that there Brazil is has shown interest in the Akash air defense systems um and which which was of course as a result of of the conflict of um between India and Pakistan. So you've you've seen we've seen new elements emerge from a geopolitical perspective. India not just Brazil but I think the whole Latam region region has seen a new engagement uh from India's perspective. The the lithium triangle below Brazil or in Brazil we have seen a different kind of engagement in the past few years. uh bilateral trade with Brazil has reached almost 15 billion to to two way and and that's compared to just just a few years

11:04 back. I think that's uh that's a huge development in terms of how the two countries look at each other and just look at the number of uh I think the parliamentary delegations and otherwise uh have those that have visited between the countries. I mean it has seen a huge spike in in that sense as well. Um and and lastly I think from the perspective of geopolitical positioning uh uh from from the global south uh we have seen a southern arc connecting India uh with countries and and there's been an you know a conscious diplomacy to engage countries and link on the on on the spectrum of ideas on the spectrum of uh global issues such as the G4 you have the UNC membership etc. um combining linking in in India with with Brazil and

11:50 and similar countries across the board. Um if you look at the BRICS statement the um the emphasis on the WTO rules clearly will tell you uh where we are headed and what we intend as a bilateral unit um you know because there's a clear enunciation uh of uh the idea that we are all signitories of the WTO and what is happening in certain countries including in the United States. I mean they don't they don't mention it but it's obvious in terms of the tariff policies of of President Trump. there's a clear aligning of of ideas uh on on that and based on global values and and things that that um and and you know rules and regulations that both countries and have signed on and it is

12:35 basically now asking uh the countries which are which are signaling that they will flout the WTO rules to be on the track and not go off rails. So I think there is and and therefore you see a natural uh rejection of those ideas and President Trump said that you know there's there will be an imposition of 10% tariff on countries uh of bricks if they go beyond uh beyond the mandate set by the United States. So I think there is a a clear tingling that is felt by the United States uh from this behemoth that is emerging uh in the global south which is bricks. Absolutely. So we we do expect that this uh visit of the prime minister will explore newer areas of cooperation. It'll go beyond the traditional areas of cooperation that have existed over the last few decades. But since you

13:21 mentioned the aspect of global governance, the ambassador did refer to India and Brazil both being part of the G4. Ambassador, so because the BRICS summit has just concluded and reforms in global governance was categorically put out there in the BRICS declaration as well. We we want the reforms to happen because that's something that we've been speaking about for several decades and now it's no longer about representation alone. It's about the credibility of these global institutions. Now coming right after the brick summit, how do you see that momentum being carried forward in this important bilateral visit of the prime minister where once again it'll be prime minister meeting the Brazilian president. Professor Misha has expressed it very

14:07 well and of course you have put it across so beautifully. Now, let me just put it to you like this. The global governance, the global institutions, you know, there's a racket in New York. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called the It used to be called the United Nations. I don't know if it's still alive. It's 80 years young now. Completely useless. Doesn't do anything except make speeches and go to sleep. And there's a secretary general there who wasn't even invited, I think, to go to the brick summit. He showed up at the G20 in Kazan, Russia, and then that idiot Beginsky, the Ukrainian, said, "You've come, I'm going to san put sanctions on the United Nations." We had funny things like this going on on our planet. Essentially, what both leaders are saying is that the international architecture after the Second World War, expiry date, expiry

14:53 date, I mean, everything is over. Go away. Go home. We have to build a new world and you are not letting that new world order emerge. The old one refuses to die. So the cooperation between the two is going to be crucial whether G4 manages to throw out the five corrups who are sitting as permanent members of the security council. I'm I've worked by the way in that racket in New York so I know what it's like. I can tell you if we were to sorry professor if we were to kick out all the diplomats like me and convert it into a nightclub it will do more for global harmony than it is doing at the moment. But nevertheless ma'am when we come together when we talk of global governor you know we are the two big fellows we are the big fellow whom the world trusts whom the world respects. Brazil on the other hand is a

15:39 big fellow who's emerging and when we get together Germany has certain issues. Japan has certain issues with Southeast Asia dating to the second world war etc. Nevertheless, India and Brazil don't and if we had a G2 instead of the G4, we probably have a better chance of getting in except that your neighbor Aangistan will keep screaming and yelling and shouting etc. But I have a feeling that this thing about global governance is going to be the focus not just of bricks but also of the global south but they want they want to be heard. You know India as a member of the global south whatever is the global south in 25 countries I've listened in I've served in that those those countries they say we want you as our spokesperson nobody listens to us I've seen this professor

16:24 in the in the UN a chap from I'm a special adviser in three African countries fellow from Papa Newu Guinea gets up and say from Guinea Bisau gets up and says listen and everybody say nobody wants to listen to you so then we are telling them that we will be your ambassadors And Brazil does that with the Latam K. I think it's a partnership that is destined, may I put it differently, that is doomed to succeed. There can be no other way. Taking on from what you said perhaps is that why uh professor Mishra that the prime minister did not mince word this time. Each time India has spoken about the urgent need to bring about reforms at global institutions. But this time uh uh the comparisons that he made and and he went on to say that 21st century

17:10 software cannot run on 20th century type riders and so on. Uh how do you also see the significance of the fact that the prime minister's assertion were backed by each member of the bricks and it found mention in the bricks declaration prominently. Absolutely. I mean I imagine the global governance as as ambassador laid out um running against a clock and that clock has already stopped. So I think there needs to be a reformation urgently. uh we are past the date and and and that reform needs to be made at every granular level. Uh I mean look at for one for instance you're talking about a rulesbased order in the Indoacific and and where's that heading right in terms of the the granularity of it you you

17:57 hear um the Indopaccom and and the uh Trump administration insisting that they are resoundingly um committed to the idea of rules based order in the Indoacific but in terms of actions they are torn apart by what's happening in other parts of the world. So they're probably deflected by what's happening in the Middle East. Russia Ukraine has of course been a Europe has been an important part of that deflection. So in terms of commitment uh to a rules-based order um India is is is left hanging in a balance because the other members I mean for a long time we heard that India was the weakest link in the quad and now you you see the commitments from the other side is it winning um therefore on the rules the other aspect of the rules based

18:42 order is is the global south uh and and there you see um you know the reform of the uh of the of the institutions that have been running for so And therefore you see it you know the pressure at the heels of these organizations. You see the expansion of bricks you and and the nature of expansion of it. You you have seen Iran and uh Ethiopia, UAE all all of these countries. Some of these countries are joined at the hip uh with the United States in terms of economy and in the broader west. So there is an inherent dichotomy that is emerging in in the ask uh of the rulesbased order. Um and that pressure is being felt by the west and and in many ways the west has uh to to sort of work its way around

19:29 uh through its tensions in the transatlantic ties in terms of repositioning by Europe as compared to the United States. A different repositioning by Europe as compared to the United States for example they might see their a reform in their own relations with China and how that might go ahead remains a question. So I think for India the emphasis by prime minister is is more than timely and I think it only lays down the urgency of the reform that not just the United Nations needs as an organization but I think a whole lot of others um other organization need as well and therefore um you know this this actionoriented approach from these institutions whereby be it in the form of expansion be it in the form of joint

20:14 statements uh now reflect a scream at the face of the existing institutions. Uh Amaz, I'll come back to you and try and understand because we I I've discussed this several times that India has raised this issue. The fact that each time uh it's a different platform. We speak about it but uh uh in terms of actionoriented uh uh measures we we see quite less at the global stage perhaps because there are several countries who do not want that change. They're not willing to let that change happen. The question here is there is increasing frustration among developing countries especially countries in the global south because of unequal representation in decision-m and because the decisions taken by the global north impact the global south with us having no stake at

21:00 all in that decision-m process. So do you think that bricks now with its uh growing influence with its growing representation can act as a credible pressure block to perhaps influence reforms at the global level because all this while there has been talk now there could be pressure and perhaps we could push something at the global level that that will be in favor of these developing countries. You're so right. You know that Trump is terrified of bricks. By the way, the GDP of bricks, I believe, Professor Mishra, please correct me, is more the combined GDP is more than that of the United States and of the European Union. Yes. So, it's growing. That's where the future is. Power is shifting from the west to the east, from the developed to the developing world. We keep talking about it because it's extremely important that it's not lost sight of.

21:46 And when we keep talking about it and the world is looking at bricks, a lot of countries are joining. They feel that they want to be part of the process of change. Why do all these fellows want to say bricks? because I want to be there. I want to make my contribution to a more equitable world. The present system is not equitable at all. Ma'am, I've served. I understand what it is. And therefore, the more there are in bricks, it certainly will be the most important pressure point. You know, Donald Trump went berserk when people said we going to have a bricks currency. He said, you do that and I'll commit suicide or something like that. I'll make you commit suicide. Something he said like something funny. And then he was saying all these nasty fellows from bricks, they're going to do this, that, and the other. I'll put tariffs on them. He's overplaying his card but that's Donald Trump. My own feeling is that BRICS is here to stay and the latest document um

22:33 incidentally they named pelgam you you are aware of that and our buddy China was not able to exercise its veto it doesn't have any the bricks documents are by consensus China didn't open its mouth to protect its colony called Aangistan they did that in the Shanai cooperation organization and the UN security they couldn't do anything because they would have been exposed as a state sponsor of a state sponsor of terrorism so I find that the issues that bricks raised are issues that concern the global south whether it's stellar economic development whether it's climate change whether it's a more inclusive a more equitable world inclusive growth etc etc m before I conclude may say something which Brazilian minister told me when I was in Brazil he said you know Mr. ambassador the Americans should be grateful that

23:20 that old Chris Columbus lost his way to India and found America. He said similarly we are grateful that this Portuguese fellow called Pedro Alvarez Kabal I think was his name he lost his way to to India and he discovered Brazil. So he said we owe you one. I said but thank you very much. But that was a kind of light-hearted thing. There's a lot of robust affection for India that I saw in Brazil and vice versa. We have nothing. We don't dislike each other. No Brazilian comes with similarly in in Brazil. I mean it's it's just the groundwork is all there and now through organizations like IPS like bricks or G20 we will be a pressure point. partnership between India and Brazil ma'am is only going to grow in importance

24:05 certainly and with the way our relationship has evolved in recent years there's growing sense uh that India and Brazil are ready to move from that uh symbolic friendship to add more strategic depth perhaps this visit is going to add uh another dimension of depth that we've spoken about but coming back to the focus of the this discussion uh professor and I ask you this because this state visit of the prime minister to Brazil uh happens just after the BRICS summit. How do you see both countries part of BRICS, part of the G4 uh both talking about global governance and reforms, the much needed reforms uh to say how do you see both countries now building continuity on all of these issues like reforming multilateral institutions and most importantly giving

24:51 voice to the global south? Yeah. So on on one side we talk about the fractures of the world. Um the ongoing wars, the fracture in the global order. I think what that has done in a way to to the global south um etc uh to the global south countries and the whole axis uh is provide a momentum and a a you know a a push a shove which actually has galvanized uh some of these urgencies. So now more than ever before we feel the need to push at these ideas more urgently. I think that therefore this visit is very timely in the sense that um you know yes the fact that there are fractures in the world but what we can do about what can we do about it and I think that solutionoriented approach

25:39 is something that is represented in the bricks at this moment. Um can you can you work around the uh you know the difficulties of the tariff if if the some of these big economies Brazil, India uh and other members of of uh the bricks band together um of course you can circum it and they're already thinking so for example since the wars have started in in Europe and the Middle East China and Russia are already uh you know doing the uh the bilateral currency exchange and therefore the question about and therefore the concern in Washington about ddollarization. Now India has made its position clear on on ddollarization but I think if if these fractures become wide uh wider and and gaping then I think uh you know some of these urgencies will feed into India's own needs and therefore

26:26 this only reflects uh the the importance of the timing of of some of these developments. Second, I think you know there is a natural there's a natural positioning of global south countries and and there's a timing factor to it which means that you you know there's a natural trajectory of the rise of global south countries which cannot be prevented. Um and therefore some we are also in many ways the global south countries are pushing at the institutions at the norms at the values uh set by a certain set of countries at the beginning uh in in the middle of the uh the last century and that tension is already being felt. Ricks is a representation of that. Right ambassador to wrap up the conversation because time is running out but uh since we are

27:12 talking about this uh visit perhaps adding a new dimension to the relationship between India and Brazil broaden the strategic partnership that we've been uh both countries have been enjoying since 2006. While trade is an important aspect of any relationship uh uh people-to-people ties often from culture to business uh become the bedrock of enduring relationships. So in that case uh what more do you think uh can be done in context of uh elevating India Brazil relationship to bring our citizens, innovators and entrepreneurs much more closer and and uh much more perhaps create an atmosphere where they can work for the progress of their respective countries. Oh absolutely ma'am you're spot on.

27:57 People-to-people relationship is very important. Mutual understanding is very important. We now even have a strategic two point two two plus two dialogue political military we established it last year and they've also expressed interest by the way I'm not giving you anything that is top secret they've expressed interest also in the what they call the braos they wanted to know where they could buy it I said try amazon.com you might get it over there we are not going to you know whatever it is so the issue basically is that these two countries now we have for example I used to be on the board of an Indian company very big in agri products and in in uh fertilizers and so on. They have a huge investment in Brazil over hund00 million dollars because they said this country has so much of land. I mean here in India if you have a tractor by the time you shift to top gear you already out of

28:43 the farm there. He said it take me 3 days to go from one end of my farm to the other in a tractor there lots of land not so many people there is it's there it's waiting to be discovered and it is being discovered now. So the future ma'am on a scale of 1 to 10 if you were to ask me I would rate it the partnership as 11. Okay. So that we'll have to wrap up the conversation. Uh we've already uh surpassed the allocated time but thank you once again am Ambassador. It's been a delight to have you with us on the program. uh professor Mishra, thank you for adding uh value to our discussion on the India Brazil partnership and how it's evolved in recent years and the new areas of cooperation that we see emerging uh post this visit significant visit of the prime minister. Time allows me to take up only that much viewers.

29:28 Once again, a huge thank you to both our guests and a big thank you to you as well for your valuable time.