Recovery and Relapse – Full Chapter Reading & Discussion | NA Basic Text

0:00 We going to pray again? >> Yeah. >> All right. Better. God >> God >> grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and the wisdom to know the difference. All right. You guys are usually going to be on page 77. I'm on page 71 in the second edition. Okay, here we go. Recovering relapse, chapter seven. Many of us consider continuous abstinence and recovery as noteworthy and therefore synonymous. While relapsers are sort of pushed aside or worse yet, use the statistics that in no way give a true picture of the entire addiction pattern. We in the recovery program of Narcotics Anonymous have noted with some satisfaction that many of our relapsers,

0:47 when again active in primary substitute addiction, have dropped many of the parallel behaviors that characterized them in the past. Do you understand what they're saying there? Is that we get a little bit better. So, like I came to my first meetings when I was 15 years old and I was catching a whole lot of cases in my teenage years. I came to NA and I actually learned a lot about not getting in trouble. And if had I not been introduced to Narcotics Anonymous at a young age like I did, I guarantee you I'd be doing life in prison right now with no possibility of parole. Me coming to meetings in early recovery taught [clears throat] me enough about general honesty and not lying, cheating, stealing as much that when I did relapse and go back for a number of years, I didn't do it to the degree I did cuz I

1:33 didn't want to completely flush my my life down the down the toilet, you know, I learned a few things. So, that's kind of what they're talking about in here. This [clears throat] change alone uh This change alone is significant to us. Honesty of a kind has penetrated their character. Yet there are others, completely abstinent, whose dishonesties and self-deceit still prevent them from enjoying complete recovery and acceptance within society. Continuous abstinence, however, is still the best ground for growth. In close association with identification with others in NA groups, our chances for recovery and complete freedom in a changing and and creative form are enhanced a hundredfold. So, best chances

2:18 of staying clean. It's not It's not endorsing getting loaded and doing better out there with it cuz it still doesn't turn out very pretty. Next paragraph. Although addicts are basically the same in kind, we do as individuals differ in degree of sickness and rate of recovery. There are many times when a large when a relapse lays the groundwork for complete freedom. At other times, only by grim abstinence and willfulness to hang on to abstinence come hell or high water until a crisis passes, can that freedom be achieved. An addict who by any means can lose even for a time the desire to use has has free choice and has free choice over impulsive thinking and compulsive action has reached a turning point that may be

3:06 the decisive factor in his recovery. >> [gasps] >> The feeling of true independence and freedom hangs here in the times in the balance. To step out alone and run our own lives again draws us, yet we seem to know that what we have has come from a power greater than ourselves and the giving and receiving of help from others in acts of empathy. Many times in our recovery, the old bugaboos will haunt us. Life may again become meaningless, monotonous, and boring. We may tire mentally and repeating our new ideas and tire physically from our new activities. Yet, we know that if we fail to repeat them, we will surely take up our old practices. We suspect that if we do not use what we have, we will lose what we

3:52 have. These times are often the periods of our greatest growth. Our minds and bodies seem to be tired of it all, yet the dynamic forces of change or true conversion deep within may be working to give us the answers that alter our inner motivations and changes our lives. So, we're looking for an active change of attitudes and actions. >> [clears throat] >> Quality and not quantity is the most important aspect of abstinence. Emotional sobriety and reality is our goal. Not mere physical abstinence. How do you like to hear that word in our book after all these years, huh? Nah. Funny how that was there. One of the things they changed. I didn't improvise that at all. To improve ourselves takes effort and sincere and

4:38 since there is no way in the world to graft a new idea on a closed mind, an opening must be made somehow. Since we can do this only for ourselves, we need to recognize our two seemingly inherent enemies, apathy and procrastination. Our resistance to change seems built in and only a nuclear blast of some type will bring about any alteration or initiate another course of action. We get stuck. A relapse may provide the charge for the demolition process. A relapse and sometimes subsequent death of someone close to us can do the job of awakening us to the necessity for vigorous personal action. So, that should be the end of the squiggly line stuff. Right? Okay.

5:24 And here [clears throat] we go to the rest of the chapter. It's not in the IP that gets handed out at meetings. Uh we have seen addicts come to our fellowship, try our program, and stay clean for a period of time. They lost contact with other recovering addicts and eventually returned to active addiction. They forgot that it is really the first fix, pill, drink, snort, or coke that starts the deadly cycle all over again. They tried to control it, to use in moderation, or to use just certain drugs. None of these worked for them. Relapse in reality a re- relapse is a reality. It can and does happen. Experience shows that those who do not work our program of recovery on a daily basis may relapse. We see them come back seeking recovery. Maybe

6:10 they were clean for years before their relapse. If they're lucky enough to make it back, they are shaken badly. They tell us what that the relapse was more horrible than before they found NA in the first place. >> [sighs and clears throat] >> We have never seen a person relapse who lives in a Cocaine Anonymous program. Those two things go right right there, right? We do the program we and we know it. You know, it doesn't take long for us to to realize in here. We know when we're doing this 100. You know, when we're when we're really coming in here participating and and going all in and and and we're we're we don't we're not fighting the 90 and 90. We're making time to get to meetings just like we made time to get to the dope dealer. You know, we make

6:56 time to we make time for these important things. We we learn to be friendly and transparent and talk to people. When I don't I didn't come in here wanting friends and to talk about my damn feelings and none of that I didn't I didn't All I wanted to do is want my problems to go away, man. I didn't want I did definitely did not want friends when I came here. And I found out that guess what? I can't stay clean by myself is what my sponsor told me. So, I had to learn how to start playing well with others. So, relapses are often fatal. We have attended funerals of loved ones who died from a relapse. They died in various ways. Other times we see relapsers lost for years living in misery. Those who make it to jail or institutions may survive long longer and perhaps have a reintroduction to NA. In our daily lives, we are subject to

7:43 emotional and spiritual lapses, causing us to become defenseless against the physical relapse of drug use. So, we stop praying, when we stop reaching out, when we stop staying plugged in, when we stop doing the deal, we're just playing Russian roulette with each and every day. You know, except for just putting one bullet in the in the chamber, we start adding another bullet in the chamber every day until there's five out of six bullets getting spun around in there, and it's going to go off. And there's a part of us that knows the gun's going to go off. We're almost welcoming it at that point cuz cuz once we start disconnecting from the energy that we have from each other in here, it doesn't take long before this this hole inside of us begs to be filled with something. And and and we may start off at this stage filling it up with pornography,

8:29 gambling, caffeine, eating too much food. We may we may be filling it up with all kinds of crazy other stuff in in the initial, you know, cuz that's what we do. Like 60 days is usually about the normal time a guy gets healed up enough and thinks it's time to hook up with a girlfriend, right? And then we start looking for these other things, and then we chase that girl out of the rooms, then we chase the job out of the rooms working overtime madly and not putting enough time into our recovery. We We have these different things that take us away, and that's how the disease separates us from our recovery. It gets us away. We don't even think there's a problem, right? And then during this period, we do not even have a craving or a serious desire to use. Our disease waits until it gets us separated just far enough away from all of this, and that hole inside gets just ripe

9:16 where it's desperate to be filled, and then it spits out that sweet little lie that says, "You could go do a couple eight balls and come back in 2 weeks." What the hell? You're only 4 years clean. You can start this thing over anytime you want. GO ON AND HAVE some fun. You haven't even had a legal drink yet. So, I had that experience because I was 4 years clean from the time just before I turned 18 until I turned 22. I got separated from the program, wasn't plugged in, never had one thought or craving. My life was going absolutely the way I wanted it to. I had the Midas touch, making more money than I knew what to do with, building the chopper of my dreams. Didn't even recognize the emptiness inside my inside because I was filling it through building this chopper and making money, right? I'm not even realizing that my spiritual connection

10:02 and my and my selfishness and self-centeredness is coming back because I'm not doing my H&I commitment anymore. I'm not going to meetings regularly anymore. I'm getting all this other stuff that I'm filling up on. And this disease waits till the right time. The guy that's helping me wire up that chopper, well, he's a little wired, too. And it whispered that sweet little lie to me. I was high in less than 2 minutes. Cuz the disease waited till that exact moment when it knew the relief was near enough to grab me by the gonads and drag me right back down again. And I was completely powerless against it. There wasn't a damn thing I could do. It was like my mind kicked in and said, "You better get high before you change your mind." You know, they say call somebody before you pick up. Most of us, by the time we get backed in that corner, we can't get out of clean. We ain't calling nobody.

10:49 We getting high. So, the best offense is the defense of make sure we maintain our recovery on the daily right now, no matter what we do, cuz I cannot do this thing by myself. Eventually, I will talk myself into that. So, >> [clears throat] >> As an incurable disease, drugs drug addiction is subject to relapse. We are never forced into relapse. We are given a choice. Relapse is never an accident. Relapse is a sign that we have had a reservation in our program. We slide in our program and left loopholes in our daily lives. Unaware of the unaware of the pitfalls ahead, we stumbled blindly into the belief that we could make it on our own. Sooner or later, we fell back into the illusion that drugs would make

11:35 our life easier. We believe that drugs would change us and we forget that these changes are lethal. We believe that drugs will solve our problems and forget that they can what they can do to us. We are in trouble. Unless the illusions are shattered that we in any way can continue to use or stop using on our own, we most certainly sign our own death warrant. For some reason not taking care of our personal affairs lowers our self-esteem and that sets up a pattern that repeats itself in all areas of our life. If we begin to avoid our new responsibilities by missing meetings, neglecting 12-step work or not getting involved in our pro our program stops. Uh,

12:20 these are the kinds of things that lead to relapse. We may sense a change coming over us. Our ability to remain open-minded disappears. We may become angry and resentful towards anyone or anything. We may begin to reject those who were close to us. Build cases against people. All of a sudden everybody's a no-good blah blah blah blah blah. We isolate We isolate ourselves. We become sick of ourselves in a short time. We revert back to our sickest behavior patterns without even having to use drugs. When a resentment or any other emotional upheaval occurs, failure to practice the steps can result in a relapse. Obsessive behavior is is a common denominator for active addictive people. We may

13:07 We have times when we'll try to fill up ourselves until we are satisfied only to discover that there is no way to satisfy us. Part of our addictive pattern is that we can never get enough of whatever we think we want. Sometimes we forget and we think that if we can just get enough food, enough sex, enough money that we'll be satisfied and everything will be all right. Self-will still leads us to make a decision based on manipulation, ego, lust, or self-pride. We don't like to be wrong. Our egos tell us that we can do it on our own, but loneliness and paranoia quickly return. We find that we cannot really do it alone, and when we try, things get worse. We need to be reminded of where we came

13:53 from and where and that it will get progressively worse if we use. This is when we need the fellowship the most. We don't recover overnight. When we realize that we have made a a bad judgment, our inclination is to make an attempt to rationalize it. We often become extreme in our self-obsessive attempt to cover our tracks. We forget we have a choice today. We get sicker. There is something in our self-destructive personalities that cries for failure. Most of us feel that we do not deserve to succeed. This is a common theme for addicts. Self-pity is one of the most destructive defects. It will drain us of all positive energy. We focus on anything that isn't going our way and ignore all

14:40 the beauty in our lives. The Princess and the Pea story starts coming alive. Can't enjoy life at all for that one little thing not going my way. With no real desire to improve our lives or even to live, we just keep going further and further down. Some of us never make it back. We must learn We must relearn many things that we have forgotten and develop a new approach to life if we are to survive. This is what Narcotics Anonymous is about. It is about people who care about desperate dying addicts and can, in time, teach them how to live without drugs. Many of us have had difficulty coming into the fellowship because we did not understand that we have a disease of addiction. We sometimes see our past behavior as part of ourselves and not part of our

15:26 disease. We take the first step. We admit we are powerless over our addiction, that our lives have become unmanageable. Slowly things get better and we start getting our confidence back. Our ego tells us that we can do it on our own once again. Things are getting better and we think we really don't need this program. Cockiness [clears throat] is a red light indicator. The loneliness and paranoia will come back. We find that we can't do it on our own and things get worse. We really take the first step this time internally. There will be times, however, when we really feel like using. We want to run and we feel lousy. We need to be reminded of where we came from and that it will be worse this time. This is when we need the program the

16:13 most. We realize we must do something. Uh when we forget the effort and the work that it took us to get a period of freedom in our lives, lack of gratitude sinks in and self-destruction begins again. Unless action is taken immediately, we run the risk of relapse, which threatens our very existence. Keeping our illusion of reality >> [sighs] >> of reality keeping our illusion of reality rather than using the tools of program will return us to isolation. Loneliness will kill us inside and the drugs, which almost always come next, may do the job completely. The symptom of feelings or the symptoms and the feelings we experience at the

16:59 end of our using will come back even stronger than before. This impact is sure to destroy us if we don't surrender ourselves to the NA program. Relapse can be the destructive force that kills us or leads us to the realization of who and what we really are. The eventual misery of using is not worth the temporary escape that it might give us. For us to use is to die, often in more more than one ways and more often in more than one ways. One of the biggest stumbling blocks seems to be in placing unrealistic expectations on ourselves and others. Relationships can be a terribly painful area. Uh >> [clears throat] >> So, unrealistic expectations on

17:44 everybody. So, we newsflash, we are not a hotbed of mental health around here. We are not the most kind, considerate, loving people. We are all works in progress in here and we tend to step on each other's toes from time to time. If we expect that it is going to be nothing but, you know, pink clouds and fun times around here and we're we're not going to have to have trying times getting along with each other, we're we're we're we're having a we're setting ourselves up for a premeditated resentment. You know, and we're extremely sensitive. I read I read a lot of into stuff that really doesn't even happen because fear fear runs me and it's always thinking about these scenarios that runs by me 90 to 95% of the stuff that never even comes

18:30 true. And it sets [clears throat] the stage for these kind of things for the disease to make reasons not to play well with you guys anymore, you know? I've always been the kind of guy that just wants to take my toys and go home. Screw you, I'm done, I'm out, you know? I was never the kind of guy that made peace with people. Once you got on the list with me, you were on the list, you stayed there, you died there and that's just the way it was. I was brought up and raised that way. I was never taught forgiveness, I never forgot understanding and tolerance. Uh And above all, I I was always taught like people were freaking dispensable. I'll get another girlfriend. I'll get another wife. I'll get another I I don't care whatever it is. Anybody that gets in the way of anything that I want to do was easy for me to dispose of them. But my livelihood in Narcotics Anonymous

19:18 is a life and death thing for me today. I need you guys. I don't have to like you, but I have to love that addict that's inside of each and every one that that walks in here in order to stay connected to that to get past all the personalities and and all the defects of characters that we all possess and sling around at each other at any given time. I have to remember that I setting myself up for the the thinking that anything's going to be perfect, you know? Friends are going to hurt my feelings. They're going to disappoint me. They're going to let me down. They're going to not give me the same energy back to me that I give to them, you know? It's not always met equal equal around here. And I have to remember that the energy I put out in Narcotics Anonymous for me, I'm giving it out for me to my higher power. Where it lands, how how it lands, who it

20:05 lands with, whatever, I'm not I'm not I'm not taking account of it like it's ownership. I'm just throwing that stuff out because that's what we do around here and I just try to be an active part of this deal. I have to but like it says in the traditions, you know, if I allow principles and personalities to clash, I'm screwed cuz this magical case builder of mine will separate always looking for a reason to separate me from you and it doesn't have to find very big of an excuse to make the case that it needs to to tell you all to kick rocks, piss off, and go out and try to do it on my own. And the disease is love me to do that kind of stuff cuz it knows it only it's the only chance it has. My disease recognizes inside my brain that Narcotics Anonymous is an imminent threat to its survival.

20:51 That it doesn't have a chance as long as I'm doing this deal. So, it comes at me in all these different ways trying to just separate me little by little. Ah, your sponsor's too busy. You don't got to call him. He's way you know, whatever. It's a million and one ways and I love the way this book breaks it down like that. So, anyway, >> [clears throat] >> relationships can be a terribly pain terribly painful area. We tend to fantasize and project what will happen. We get angry and resentful if our fantasies are not fulfilled. We forget that we are powerless over other people. The old thinking and feelings of loneliness despair helplessness and self-pity creep in. Thoughts of sponsors, meetings, literature, and all other positive input leave our consciousness. We have to keep our recovery first and our priorities in

21:38 order. >> [clears throat] >> I cannot tell you how many times when I was a teenager in recovery in Narcotics Anonymous and all the old-timers that saw me saw my meeting attendance start to drop off and they all would be coming at me like, "Raz, you need to get your priorities in order." And I'm like, "I do, you know? Making money, getting a car, getting a girl. Those are my priorities." And you know, at at 15, 16, 17 years old, that's exactly what my priorities were AND I WAS HONEST ABOUT IT. I I I I was I was ignorant. I didn't I didn't understand what they tried to tell me, you know? And it says it clearly in the first step, right off the bat. It don't mince no words. That for me for addicts, recovery must come first. Anything I place before my recovery, I'm going to smoke it up.

22:23 Writing about what we want, what we are asking for, and what we get, and sharing this with our sponsor or another trusted person help us to work through negative feelings. Letting others share with us about their experience gives us hope that it does get better. It seems [clears throat] that being powerless is a huge stumbling block. When a need arises for us to admit our powerlessness, we may first look for ways to exert our power against it. I love pounding a square peg in a round hole. I'm going to get my way one way or another. I have to submit. Exhausting these ways, we begin sharing with others and find hope. So, exhausting those ways, we begin sharing with others. We got to let people in. That's That's That's where the relief comes. That's where you find hope. Being

23:10 transparent. If I'm not transparent, man, I'm letting King Baby run the show. Cuz everything sounds like a good idea in here. When I start sharing it with you guys, I said, "Oh, That doesn't sound very smart at all." Attending meetings daily, living a day at a time, and reading literature seems to send our mental attitude back towards the positive. Willingness to try what has worked for others is vital. Even when we feel that we don't want to attend meetings or want to attend, meetings are a source of strength and hope for us. It is important to share our feelings of wanting to use drugs. It is amazing how often newcomers think that it is really abnormal for a drug addict to want to use. So, we take those secrets out of the

23:56 dark and bring them out to light, no matter how silly and stupid they are to us. We need to bring that out, you know. Uh secrets are just not good for us. When [clears throat] we feel the old urge has come over us, we think there must be something wrong with us and that other people in Narcotics Anonymous couldn't possibly understand. And if you read this book long enough, you're going to find out that there isn't anything that Narcotics Anonymous and the fellowship doesn't understand about us. Cuz if you read this book enough, you're going to find out it's like they've been spying on you your whole damn life. That all this stuff is like, "How did they know this is what I'm thinking? That's what I did. I was just doing that this morning, you know?" All that kind of stuff. It is important to remember that the desire to use will pass. We never have to use again, no matter how we feel. All feelings will eventually pass. The

24:42 progression of recovery is a continuous uphill journey. It doesn't just happen. It's an intentional act. Without effort, we start the downhill run again. The progression of the disease is an ongoing process, even during abstinence. We come here powerless and the power we ask comes to us through other people in Narcotics Anonymous. This is where we feel the energy, but we must reach out for it. Now, clean and in the fellowship, we need to keep ourselves surrounded by others who know us well. We need each other. Narcotics Anonymous is a fellowship of survival and one of its advantages is that it places us in intimate, regular contact with the very people who can best understand and help us in our recovery. Good ideas and good intentions do not

25:29 help if we fail to put them into action. Reaching out is the beginning of the struggle that will set us free. It will break down the walls that imprison us. You got to let people in. A symptom of our disease is alienation and honest sharing will free us to recover. We are grateful that we were made so welcome at meetings that we felt comfortable. Without staying clean and coming to those meetings, we would surely have had a rougher time with the steps, like it was possible anyway. Uh just one fixed pill, drink, snort, or tote will in a port will interrupt the process of recovery. We all find that the feeling that we No. We all find that the feeling we get from helping others motivates us to do better

26:17 in our own lives. If we are hurting, and most of us do from time to time, we learn to ask for help. Hardest thing I ever had to do was ask another man for help and then be willing to do what the help told me to do. >> Yeah. >> Uh we find the pain We find that pain There's a lot of cliches in here that we still use quite a bit. We find that pain shared is pain lessened. Members of our fellowship are willing to help a relapser recover and have insight and useful suggestions to offer when asked. Recovery found in Narcotics Anonymous must come from within and no one stays clean for anyone but themselves. >> [clears throat] >> In our disease, we are dealing with a destructive, at times violent, power greater than ourselves that can lead to relapse. If we have relapse, it is

27:03 important to keep in mind that we must get back to meetings as soon as possible. Otherwise, we may have only months, days, or hours before we reach a threshold where we are gone beyond recall. Minute we let the monkey out of the cage, man, all the lies, all the deceptions, all the comes out, you know, immediately. It builds a big old case against this whole fellowship of people that never did nothing wrong against me, nothing seriously wrong against me, but it builds all these big cases so I got a good reason never to come back here again. So, after I did those couple of eight balls and stayed out, uh I was going to do it for 2 weeks and come right back, take a white chip, and start all over. I went out there, I got stuck for 14 years. And during that 14 years, I had several

27:49 times that I wanted to with all my being to get a day clean again. I tried plenty of experiments, but my in between my ears had built a case so big against NA that I wouldn't allow me to get here. Wasn't coming back here for nothing. I'm just going to figure it out on my own. Despite knowing all the evidence of people getting it before me, right? But I'm letting the evidence my my my my brain puts all the evidence about staying clean way back in the corner I can't even see no more, and it builds this other case that's all all fantasy all all crap. Oh, All right, if we relapse, it's important to keep in mind that we must get back to meetings as soon as possible. Otherwise, we may have only months, days, or hours before we reach a threshold where we are gone

28:35 beyond recall. Our disease is so cunning that it can get us into impossible situations. When it does, we come back to the program if we can, while we can. Once we use, we are under control of our disease. We never fully recover, no no matter how long we've been clean. Complacency is the enemy of members with substantial clean time. If we remain complacent for long, the recovery process ceases. We either grow or we go, period. There's no neutral for us. The disease will manifest apparent symptoms in us. Denial returns along with obsession and compulsion. Guilt, remorse, fear, and pride may become unbearable. Soon, we reach a place where our backs are against the wall.

29:21 Denial in the first step conflict in our minds. If we let the obsession of using overcome us, we are doomed. Only a complete and total acceptance of the first step can save us. We must totally surrender ourselves to the program. The first thing we do is to get clean. This makes the other stages of recovery possible. As long as we stay clean, no matter what, we have the greatest possible advantage over our disease. For this, we are grateful. Many of us get clean in a protective environment, such as a rehabilitation center or recovery house. When reentering the world, we feel lost, confused, and vulnerable. And we mistake that we had time clean that we must got that part down like Pat, right?

30:07 Many people get out of prison, got a lot of time clean, they don't think they got to do the 90 meetings in 90 days. They don't got to do it like everybody else cuz they come out with years. Right? I'm special. Ain't none of us special. They don't have any exceptions in this book outlining anybody that's special and exempt from things. They don't even have things where There's not even a place in here where it says, "Okay, well, now you can cut back to three or four meetings a week." There's none of that in here. It never tells you that. So, what's it trying to tell us? You know, it's Yeah. Yeah, the coast is never clear. Going to meetings as often as available will reduce the shock of change. Meetings provide a safe place to share with others during this time. We begin to live in the program. We learn to apply spiritual principles in our lives.

30:54 We must use what we learn or we will lose it and relapse. Many of us would have had nowhere else to go if we could not have trusted NA groups and members. At first, we are both captivated and intimidated by the fellowship. No [clears throat] longer comfortable with our using friends, we were not yet at home in the meetings. Hard to give up old playmates, playgrounds, and playthings. We think this My best friend was my dope man, right? He's the only one that I was friendly to, anyway. We began to lose our fear through the experience of sharing. So, sitting around, showing up right at the meeting buzzer, and heading right out the door, not doing any meeting after the meeting, not talking to people, not getting a phone number and using them, not really sharing,

31:39 we're not plugged in. You can come in and get the card signed all you want. You can hear the buzzer to buzzer and be prayer to prayer, and you're cutting yourself off from the most powerful thing that we have is the meetings after the meetings. That's when we make the connection. And if you're new, that's when we get to open up and really connect with somebody. You know, that's that's when the that that's when things really I mean, meetings are very magical place. But if we don't when if we don't take that and and monopolize that into the the furthering our connection at a deeper level and just keeping it superficial and and not really letting anybody in, you know, we're still letting our disease control our life and keep us separate separated from the emotional growth that we need. Growth means change. Spiritual maintenance means ongoing recovery, and

32:26 isolation is dangerous to spiritual growth. Those of us who find the fellowship and begin to live the steps develop some kind of relationship with others. As we grow, we learn to overcome the tendency to run and hide from ourselves and our feelings. Being honest about our feelings helps us to identify with us. We find that when we communicate honestly, we reach others better. So, leave the at the door. Honesty takes practice and none of us claims to be perfect. It's definitely an exercise. We get better and better at it. Nobody's 100%. When we feel trapped or pressured, it takes a great spiritual and emotional strength to be honest. Sharing with others keeps us from feeling isolated and alone. If I'm not honest, you don't really know who I am. If I'm just giving you the ego and the

33:13 and I got this and I got that and I'm keeping all that all about the superficial material on the outside, you're not getting to know the real me inside. Uh this process is a creative action of the spirit. That's how God works through us for each other. When we work the program, we are living the steps daily. This gives us experience in applying spiritual principles. The experience we gain with time helps our ongoing recovery. We must Again, we must use what we learn or we will lose it, no matter how long we have been clean. Eventually, we are shown that we must get honest or we will use again. We pray for willingness and humility and finally get honest about our mistaken judgments or bad decisions.

34:00 We tell those who we hurt that we that we were to blame and we make whatever amends are necessary. Now, we are in the solution again. We are working the program. It becomes easier to work the program now. We know that the steps help prevent relapse. Relapsers may fall into another trap. We may doubt that we can stop using and stay clean. We can stay We can ne- We can never stay clean on our own. Frustrated, we cry, "I cannot do it. Well, I can't do it." Uh we beat ourselves as we come back into the program. We imagine that our fellow members will not respect the courage that it takes to come back. We have learned the utmost respect for the type of courage for that type of courage. We applaud heartily. It is not

34:46 shameful to relapse. The shame is not coming back. We must smash the illusion that we can do it alone. What is that? That's like the fifth or sixth time it says that, right? At least. And probably about at least a dozen times it says it in different ways. Another type of relapser does not keep being clean as a top priority. Staying clean must always come first. Sorry, the wife, the kids, the job, none of that happens if I don't stay clean. It all It all disappears if I don't maintain this is the number one thing in my life. I will everything else off like that. And if I don't give this my best effort, I won't have a chance of keeping it. It This has to be the top. The other stuff, it gets the leftovers of me. It just does. As I get time, I'm

35:33 able to balance that out and and carve out a little bit more time here and there as my foundation gets a little bit better. But at the same time, I still have to have a parameter of of minimums, you know? I'm 20 years, 8 months, and 2 days clean. And >> [applause] >> I still hold firm at four meetings a week. And that's during my spring months when I'm going to Utah every weekend and I'm out of town. All right? Other than that, when it's the wintertime, I'm still six meetings, sometimes nine meetings a week. Uh this is it it I had an old-timer tell me when I asked cuz I asked cuz I seen so many people in the program that did it on the one meeting a week and I'm like, "How do I do it like them fuckers?" He's like, "Razz, you ain't never going to be one of those guys, you know?" [laughter]

36:18 Uh it just You're not that kind of guy, you know? And and and I believe it. The kind of disease I have and the monkey that I have, it a half-assed attempt at recovery is not going to keep my disease contained. So, I have to take this seriously. Some people have cute little spider monkey diseases and can get by with less. And then some people just stay calm clean come hell or high water. I'm emotionally too big a to do that. You know, if if I'm not filled up with the right stuff, I'm going to use again. It's just a matter of time. I'm on borrowed time if I do not maintain this thing. It's a daily reprieve. We don't get to save it up. I mean, though I can be okay for a couple of days, uh it still has to be the most important thing in my life. My first 5 years clean, only time I missed a meeting was when I

37:04 was sick. Sick to death in bed. Other than that, I went to meetings every day. And and everybody has to come to their own conclusion of where that line is. But for me, I have found that a minimum of four meetings a week consistently in the same kind of places, not just skipping around the valley and not getting known by anybody, but having a solid connection someplace where I can actually make an impact and a difference and be a part of other people's life. So, when I walk through that door, they know if I've had a bad day or shit's happening to me. They know. They connect with me. And that that that makes a huge huge difference, you know? It's easy to have In Narcotics Anonymous, we can have thousands of associations around here. We call them friends, but we really don't have time to have all that many damn friends. Quality does count around here. And depth makes a huge

37:51 difference. If they don't really know who I am, I can paste a smile on. I can throw a good few words cuz I know the book pretty good. Make it sound like I got some going on. Inside, I'm wanting to eat a goddamn bullet. You know, I need friends that are going to see me walk in when I'm feeling like that. They're going to say, "What's up, Raz?" They tell me I mean, cuz they see consistently that I'm doing pretty good. When they sees me being sideways, it's pretty obvious. I I don't hide much. You know, I got one of those faces, you know, you you know where I'm at when I when I when you see my my expression. So, anyway. So, at times we'll experience difficulty in our recovery. Emotional relapses result from not putting into practice what we have learned. Those who make it through these times show a courage not their own. After coming through one of these periods, we can readily agree that

38:38 it is always darkest before the dawn. Once we get through a difficult time clean, we are given a tool of recovery that we can use again and again. If we relapse, we may feel guilt and embarrassment. Our relapse is is embarrassing, but we cannot save our face and our ass at the same time. We must We find that it is best to get back on the program as soon as possible. It is better to swallow our pride than to die or go permanently insane. As long as we maintain an attitude of being thankful for being clean, we find that it is easier to remain clean. So, I have to keep building the the glass is full. Negativity is detrimental to us, man. I I have to change my outlook on life. I can't be that, you know, it's

39:25 another miserable day in paradise, kind of attitude anymore. That is is deadly to me. You know, I have to be building on the positive. I can't afford the luxury to be negative and and and tear apart anymore. That's what I did my whole life. I tore everything down in the world to try to make myself feel better about myself. The best way to express gratitude is by carrying the message of our experience, strength, and hope to the still suffering addict. >> [snorts] >> We are ready to work with any suffering addict. That doesn't say just people who got 12 work 12 steps, got 10 years, whatever. This saying each and every one of us in this room with a day clean that we work with other people coming through the door. We don't wait around and leave the work for other people to do it, you know? It's It's not It's not like we're waiting for our mom to come home and

40:11 clean the house around here. You know, really. We participate in each other's lives around here. And And when we talk about giving it away to keep it, it's not so much the message is the love we give. And the love and the give a part is the biggest part. It is the biggest part that we give. Taking time when we see somebody that looks tore from the floor up to give them that hug, to welcome them into the room, to take time to listen to them dribble their you know, we all got drama when we come in here, you know, and we listen to each other go through it and it it's no matter where you are, whether you're in the Cadillac flats or down here in the hood, everybody has their problems and everybody's problems are special and different and so much more painful than everybody else's cuz they're our problems, you know, and we allow each other that, you know, and and we dig in,

40:57 we we give each other the love, man. Uh we are ready to work with any suffering addict. Living the program on a daily basis provides many valuable experiences. If we are plagued by an obsession to use, experience has taught us to call a fellow recovering addict and get to a meeting. Nowadays, back in this book was written, you had to go use a payphone or go home to a landline to get a hold of people, right? We all, even the homeless people got smartphones everywhere around here. We are all connected around here. There's no reason to not to be in any amount of pain or distraught and not pick up the phone and call somebody. So get phone numbers, use them. And use them before you need them because if you don't use them before you need them, when you do need them, your disease is just going to use that against you to not call nobody. We got

41:44 to start building relationships and they're built one conversation at a time. >> [snorts] >> If we are plagued by an obsession to use, experience has taught us that to call a a fellow recovering addict and to get to a meeting. Using addicts are self-centered angry frightened and lonely people. In recovery, we experience spiritual growth. While using, we were dishonest, self-seeking, and often institutionalized. The program allows us to become responsible and productive members of society. As we begin to function in society, our creative freedom helps us to sort our priorities and do the basic things first. First things first, what's right in front of us? Don't future trip about tomorrow next week. It's the next thing right in front of us is all we got to worry about. Daily practice of our 12-step program enables us to change

42:30 from what we were to what our higher power would have us be. With the help of our sponsor or spiritual advisor, gradually we learn to trust and depend on our higher power as we understand it and trust on the fellowship, you know, uh >> [clears throat] >> People are going to fail us. Individuals are going to fail us. >> [clears throat] >> Plugging into this worldwide fellowship of Narcotics Anonymous and and building a nice foundation of it, that's the lifesaver part here. You know, I I can open my phone right now, there's 40-50 guys that I'm in contact with just about every day. And and probably 80% of them respond back to me of the that I send them every day.

43:15 Not everybody plays balls and participate every day. I send a lot of stuff out to people and not everybody is is you know, and that's okay. You know, my my job is to put out as much good as I can. Where it lands, where it falls, whatever. Somebody uses it, fine or not. You know, I really figure, you know, I I put out 38 years of negative toxic and now my turn is to put out as much as I can. And And when I get good little nuggets of recovery recovery out there, I try to pass them on to other people. And when I'm in the action of trying to to When I'm in the action of of passing on, handing on the recovery and stuff like that, man, I'm I'm part of God's world, man. I'm not out there chasing the money wheel. I'm not out there chasing money, property, prestige, and all that kind of stuff. It's an It's an active change. I

44:00 never gave two shits about starving kids in in in China or or any other people in the rooms of recovery. You know, it started for me one newcomer at a time when I started giving a for people. And if you're like me, other newcomers, we can identify with that same kind of pain. And and identifying with that same kind of pain makes it easier for us to open up our heart to those people. And that's what makes us all help each other all the more. At this time, I kind of I go around the room. We do have a few months, right? We're not too bad. How is Anthony? You don't like You never relapsed, did you? Well, you can't You don't got nothing to share on this. No experience.

44:46 Okay good. >> [laughter] >> Good. Let's hear it, then. Anthony, there's other pre-lapse. There's other things before. >> things that you would read in that we have I can make a bad And I realized talking about Now you have a void to Now you want to use I relapsed on money, property, prestige relapsed on gambling I relapsed and I did all kind of different things. back here in the corner

45:34 and the reason And the more action you got So the whole thing We had 20 seconds tell somebody >> [cough] [clears throat] >> I came around that's how it was. You had to do things that you know, like today like it's a little bit more easier because you got more availability to do things. When I came around you had to have the willingness to participate in doing things you don't want to And get knowledge from people who are pouring out pain. You know, it's easy to disqualify somebody, but if you give people love, man and you guys are saying and connect with people, it's what the whole thing is about. We're all suffering from the same disease. Disease is a nasty, violent power. It doesn't want you to be happy

46:20 to achieve. It wants you to be miserable. It wants you to have an attitude of indifference. It wants you to be antisocial. And the reality is when you do things that you read, that was dynamite reading. I mean, that was So, I I I've read that many times. I haven't read it in a while. But, it just puts you right in the tune that yeah, I got to keep doing this thing at day and time. I got to stay clean and I got to The only way you keep it is by giving it away. The more you're connecting with people, the more better shot you got to stay clean. The more you [clears throat] isolate and put your separate yourself and have an indifference with people and a judgmental person. And so, but I did all of that. I came in with a resentment. I I never was in a detox rehab. I came cold right into the meetings and not dying signs. And I was kicking 80 mg of Xanax. And I didn't even know what it was. You know what? I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. So, I kept coming back even though I was going

47:05 through pain, misery, and suffering. I wasn't sleeping for 3 months. But, when you get sick and tired of being sick and tired and living at animal level, you want to stop where the heroin is. And I know what it is to be pain, misery, and suffering. So, now you get the other side and you get the relief and you use spiritual principles and you do the things that you don't want to do. But, really, I didn't want to do all of these things. I didn't want to make this transition. I wanted to get mine and I'll see you later. You know what I mean? I had That's the way I was. But, then you start learning to have empathy and you have a heart for people and you see people die. Just to give you a real close fast, I knew a kid that came in the meetings like 8 years ago and he was 16 years old. And my wife called me the other day. She said, "Oh, did you hear about Finn?" I said, "What happened?" She said, "Oh, Finn died." I said, "How did he die?" She said that

47:51 he went back out and used again. You know what I mean? He went He went to the other fellowship. He was in NA. He went to the no fellowship. And it's okay because all right, I can I can still free drive. I can use coke. I don't have to You don't have to claim that to help my sobriety. So, he went over to that one and he started using again. His mother put him in a rehab. Came back out, used again. And then his and his mother when he went out he was ready to kill himself and he said, "I'm going to either use or kill myself." And his mother said, "Please don't do that. But these if you use you could still be here if you don't OD. But if you kill yourself it's done." Anyway, he went and used, came back that night to sleep and his mother woke him up that same that next day. "Finn, what are you going to do?" He said, "Oh, I just got to get something in the car." He went in the car and he moved and he OD'd and >> No. >> he died of the addiction. And I don't

48:36 mean to be harsh or anything, but that's what happens. We die in this If you don't surrender to this disease you end up dying. You know, I don't I'm not trying to be like a hard guy. I'm just trying to tell you these are the truths. These are spiritual truths. This is what happens. Either you're going to buy into this, have a productive life, and have a life where you're living, or you can be going back out there in jail institutions and do the same thing over and over again. And that guy had a god in his gray life. That guy had a desire or willingness. And I ain't never, you know, like Brad was saying the coast is never clear. That's why I'm in this program. >> I surrender. >> Daniel. Yes. >> Boo. How are you doing, Daniel? >> I'm good. >> I I really love this. This is

49:23 one of the uh uh things that helps me in early recovery. Uh like I I wasn't really doing the deal going in recovery and one of my good friends, the guy that I I used with every day, uh both of those two died and uh >> [clears throat] >> and you took me to a meeting. Uh and it was uh uh Wednesday night and after we studied and we read in the government relapse, and and we got to the middle of the pamphlet and the line that uh that, you know, I still know that we just read is relapse and so sometimes subsequent death of someone close to us

50:09 can do the job of awakening us to necessity for vigorous personal action, and um >> [clears throat] >> that uh has that resonated with me, and um I was I was doing, you know, step study at your house once a week, [clears throat] maybe at another meeting at 9:00 if you know, I uh made it on time, and um you know, my uh meeting attendance brought at the same time I got a H&I commitment, and uh my meeting attendance uh you know, skyrocketed uh after I read that, and you know, I thought, you know, I better get busy, get busy living, uh and um my other favorite line out of this uh chapter is uh you know, uh we focus on anything that

50:56 isn't going our way and ignore all the beauty in our lives, and um I think I was uh celebrating um 4 or 5 years, you're there, and uh you know, she I don't even remember who it was. She said she was going to be there, and there was like 50, 60 people in the meeting, and I just sat against the the wall staring at the door waiting for one person to come in, and uh even people are sharing, uh you know, I I I shared, and you shared, and and everyone else in the meeting sharing, and I'm still staring at the door like she's late, and uh you know, I was ignoring all the beauty in my life, right? I was focusing

51:41 on that one thing, and um you know, um there's there's a so much to unpack in this chapter, but I I always think about that because whenever I have all these other problems, I forget all the stuff I have to be grateful for. >> Right. >> I'll I'll focus on that one thing and it's like, you know, if you know, I I meet 10 people and nine of them >> [clears throat] >> say I love you and that one person's like off. I'm thinking about that one person instead [clears throat] of the other nine people and I'm like, what did I do to that guy? you, right? And I'll focus on that one negative thing and ignore all the beauty in my life and

52:27 I constantly have to remind myself that um there's a lot of things to be grateful for for being clean and yeah, there's there's so much good stuff in this in this in this I I basically uh you know, I I love this chapter. Um Relapse is not a part of my story, but uh it can and does happen. Like we read and there's so many so many good uh so much [snorts and clears throat] good stuff in here. >> Next one, sir. >> Sure. >> David. >> Oh, thanks. Um so relapse and recovery is a good chapter. I was reading when I was

53:13 I guess I'm still kind of 2 3 years into it, but a sponsor told me that you can't actually uh relapse until you actually work a program so you go back out. So I used to tell people I was relapsing, but I guess I was just going back out so I worked the program. But uh no, there's a lot of good stuff um in this chapter. I really I do uh I think reading it here, going through and going through all the steps that we just went through and all the stories we're talking about helps me want to stay where I'm at today and be more connected and be more grateful for where I'm at and my predecessors around here because um I don't want to go back to that way of living I once that way I used to live where I was. I um just saying uh tagged into the program here

53:59 uh with my friends throughout here now and just uh uh just working this program it's just a game changer. It's uh it's the it saved your life man. If you're struggling and you're going through here and you you're thinking like you want to get some other than bright ideas like chasing her, chasing him or going out and you're trying to make more money you're not putting this thing first you're definitely going to uh fall in my opinion. Um Yeah, I don't know man. I just uh it's just uh I don't know what I'm going to blame for you know. I'm sorry you guys that's what I have to say here and just listening right now. It's Robert again and I'm an addict addict. Robert Yeah, we we have the only disease

54:44 that it's proper treatment makes us better human beings than we ever had a possibility of being before. Really. I mean when we do this thing right and we plug in right and we balance out our selfishness and self-centeredness and we we do the deal. We work the steps. We work on our you know our character defects to try to be better people. I mean all the things that we do to do this thing. So reality is is is is I get to live this life that I only fantasized about before. The delusions and the that I told myself and the grandiose thoughts and all the crap that I used to think before. You know, all that kind of crap that I sell myself on. And and the you know I I think about it and you know I lied to myself more than I lied to

55:31 anybody else when I was out there getting loaded. I built cases on that I knew was weak. You know, I I tore down people and uh uh and and I and I and I my my grasp on reality was really thin, but yet I still believed I was right all the time. You know, my ego, like it talks about in that reading, like I always I always think it's right. And and my experience of going in and out of the rooms for a lot of years, like I like the way they did the recovery and relapse because it goes back and forth, back and forth, you know? Like it like it takes it to the the conversation and they paragraph take you to to the edge of not quite relapsing, reeling it back in and and and making me about change and then going back to it again and pushing the envelope back and forth and back and forth. And it's the struggle that most of us have in here when we're new until

56:17 we fully concede to our innermost self and really admit that guess what, man? This is the end of the road. This is This is it. Right? I mean I ain't heard I ain't heard and I ain't seen nobody else come in here with nothing better. There's lots of commercials out there saying they got other programs and like that out there, but I don't see any real living example of people being any more happy, joyous, and free than the people I see living the Narcotics Anonymous way of life. Uh when when we see people living this thing, you can see them coming in and and you know, they're not rattled by I mean, I'm my doesn't I have a lot of I got lots of toys. Got lots of property. Got lots of stuff out there. My stuff used to own me today, you know? I'd be consumed with the loss of it.

57:03 Somebody might want to steal my stuff. I mean, I stole so much My karma says that, you know, people I got some coming, you know? That that there should be some coming my direction and and I don't feel that way spiritually anymore because I feel that I've made up for all those things, but on the other side of those things is I'm not scared. If they go, they go. You know, building this house in the middle of Utah and you know, I ain't got no insurance on and fire could I mean, it's fire area, man. This thing could burn up any damn time, you know? That's kind of that I would be laying awake at nights always worried about, you know, and that cuz I I used to always have indigestion. You know, from the time I was in my early 20s, you know, until I got clean at 38, I I was eating Tagamet and Rolaids and and like I mean I used to go to Tijuana

57:49 just to get pharmaceutical stuff for my stomach so my bleeding ulcers wouldn't tear me up. I've had two Rolaids since I've been clean. Been 20 years. And that was from some bad food. To me it's a direct result of my level of surrender to this program. I've given my higher power complete permission to put into my life and take out of my life whatever it sees fit at any given moment. Everything I have is purely on loan to me. I don't own Everything's here and it's not guaranteed it's going to be here tomorrow. I'm not guaranteed I'm going to be here tomorrow. I'm an addict. I could screw this thing up tonight on my way home. It probably won't happen cuz I'm working a pretty good program right now. I I have a pretty good assurance that I'm going to probably going to wake up pretty damn clean in the morning and and rocking and rolling in the right direction again

58:35 tomorrow because I've been doing it consistently for a long period of time, but it's taken me a lot of days to build up that consistency consistency in my recovery and, you know, every day, you know, we get away from the things that work. We come in here in the first 30 days, you know, and our sponsor says pray and read the Just for Today Day and and and reach out to some other recovering addicts and then, you know, do do some random acts of kindness, do a couple little I mean we did a few of these tips in the beginning of early recovery and they work really good for us and our lives are together. At 60 days clean we start seeing what we can get away without doing anymore. It doesn't seem like God's always there when I pray. You know, why am I bothering getting on my knees every morning? Sometimes it doesn't seem like there's anybody there, nothing's answering me. I don't feel anything, you know, I feel energy drinks. I feel other kinds of adrenaline

59:23 and things like that out there. I don't really feel this, you know, but the other side is is that I don't always feel my my higher power in in those kind of prayers, but I feel it more so in my meditations, and I definitely feel it in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. When the air is thick, I mean, they used to all hippies used to talk about oh man, that's heavy. Right? I know what they mean in a real in the real sense cuz I sense it in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous when when people are sharing from the heart and my heart's reaching your heart and your heart's reaching somebody else's heart and there's honest gut level being shared, not just the trying to impress people and think that we know something, the 90-day wonder I mean, I was I was a notorious 90-day wonder, you know, I could put together

1:00:09 some spews. I could listen to a whole bunch of people during the meeting and put together a good spin by the end of the meeting of what it all meant what it all kind of sounded like at the end of it, you know, and and had no experience to draw from, not a damn piece of it of of of real experience to base it on. But, it sounded good. Bullshitted a lot of people, you know? But, inside I knew I wasn't really living it cuz I wasn't really doing the prayer, you know? I I read my meditation books every morning. I pray every morning. Uh They say that everything that's important to us we make time for. Everything else we make an excuse for. I'm a busy guy. Very busy. I don't do that doesn't net me a payoff. And I make just because I don't see the payoff doesn't mean that I'm not paying

1:00:54 into the account these days. I have to keep paying into that account so that when I need it, it's there. And my experience has proven to me in recovery in the long term that as long as I keep paying into the account, when I need to hit it, it's there for me. You know? And and it's and it's and it's something I can bank on. I started off with blind faith in the beginning. Now I have absolute trust that a higher power is looking out for me and it's got my back no matter what comes down the pipe. I don't worry about I'm I'm worried about the afterlife and any of that I know every day that I live well and I live right by the way my higher power wants me to live, which is according to what's in my heart, that if I live this day the way I know this heart tells me to do it, that tomorrow is going to take care of itself and the tomorrow after that's going to take care of itself and and all I have to do is just keep doing this just for the day.

1:01:40 Living this thing one day at a time, putting my best effort into doing what I think that my higher power wants me to do. And not doing the that I know my

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