Sarah Jane Smith Series 2 - A Retrospective | Big Finish | Doctor Who Spinoff

0:00 hi this is Sadie Miller and you're listening to the Sirens of audio I think there was a three-year gap between the first theories in this one which is the second series the reason being I desperately have to be wanted you see so I let the first sort of rush subside if you can call it Russian oh gosh you know doing a Sarah Jane tape what we'll be like I love the comments that I had back from people who'd bought it and I wanted to see if down the line even years later people would still remember and want to hear more because it is a dicey thing when you put an assistant on her own without the doctor you know kind of will it work we did it in K9 and you know as everyone sort of knows on the circuit I'm not so happy with that so it was just that still people would ask are you going to do any

0:45 more so I thought I would love to do some more if big Finnish you're interested in Jason hey Gallery had said you know when you're interested let me know and I I did and um it's been an absolute Joy doing this series too we have collaborated on scripts with David Bishop I have been allowed such an input on storyline not because I'm good at it but because I have in my head this character that I've kind of been living with for over 30 years [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]

1:38 thank you [Music] audio files and welcome to this special edition of the Sirens of audio I'm Dwayne and I'm Philip Gooding branded audiophiles g'day Philip and this has been a long time coming because it's been well well over six months since we did our feature on Sarah Jane Smith series one and we're

2:25 finally finally putting out our retrospective on series two so I'm very excited about it it's a shorter Gap than they had between the two series though how long was that four years yeah about four years between series one and series two so I think yeah we're still waiting well since we would ever come but yeah we went years and years for the next one that never happened either yeah I know if we if we wanted to do a 20th anniversary we'd have to wait another three years wouldn't we we're all set but we're not going to do that we want to get this uh we want to get this out there for you to enjoy so it's we're going to be talking about series two there's four stories in the series and yeah I just rather than jump down a rabbit hole as we normally do in our podcast I just want to ask you the question

3:10 what is it about the character of Sarah Jane Smith that is so enduring amongst most fans is it because nearly any fan survey will put Sarah Jane Smith at the very top of the favorite companions list silly of Our Generation and even you know all new fans once they start watching the show put it there too and even all the other companions recognize the fact you know talk to Janet and Sophie they all recognize yeah Sarah Jane Smith was the favorite I think I don't know I mean partly for me it was partly it's my age I I talk about the fact that um Sarah Jane was the first woman I fell in love with um because you just feel safe around her and secure I think Elizabeth's performance is so confident and she

3:56 brings so much out of the character in terms of humor but also fear but also excitement Adventure she looks like she's having a great time with except for which is not but you know on the whole you can see what she wants because you look at what she goes through in some of the stories it's absolutely horrific what Sarah Jane goes through but the moments when she's just traveling the doctor there's excitement there and adventure and it's all in the actress because certainly back then the writers weren't writing for the companions they certainly weren't writing for the female companions they were just given lines to say to to let the doctor do what he had to do but Elizabeth managed to get so much out of those lines and play them up and I think because

4:41 um particularly she also got on well with John because she's able to carry a lot of stuff with John as well and you know and John was in a grief process these last season he's lost Katie Manning he'd lost the unit family was dispersing and yet you obviously took a signing to Elizabeth which I you know I would have thought he may have done because yeah when you lose everything that you you're so so dear if it's a bit harder but for certainly for you know Johnny didn't show that but when John put when John Tom came along the Rapport between Elizabeth and Tom is so clear and they're effectively so clear and we know that they played up a bit in rehearsal rooms they added bits and they added movements in you know there's a lovely scene in the pyramids of what Mars were you know they both stroll in see the mummies turn around walk back out again you know this abrupt

5:28 turn all that sort of stuff was worked out in rehearsal rooms it wasn't the script and I think that's just what why she's just so endearing and she was there for so long I mean it was three and a half years she's probably I don't know she's the longest serving companion she made a lot more episodes but she's up there much the longest time something in years and it was the golden age in terms of great stories so yeah I still and can I say just a lovely person I want that won't tell my story again but yeah having meta um I was still in love with her and yeah I still miss her and and when when when I heard that she died it was a real uh moment I really remember is hitting me hard because I was just so sad because she was just amazing and then

6:14 you know when they brought her back to the 17 Adventures I mean once again just lovely lady Bruin actress and loved her role what about you why do you think she endures so well I I think you've you've vocalized it very well uh for for everybody I I've as you were speaking I was thinking about the difference in performance between her and the third doctor and her and the fourth doctor because there is there is a there's a little spark that's not quite there in season 11. however that's the season I'm most familiar with that's the that's one of my favorite Seasons I just love all those stories but it wasn't until she got with the fourth doctor that it kind of well you can't say it was better it was just

6:59 different and it changed there was a little bit of a dynamic shift uh in in those two actors performing together and so therefore the character changed as well and I was thinking that to compare that with the with the current series or the the 21st century series can we call it the new series now it's been going for decades um when when the companion I mean we had it with rose we Rose went from the the ninth to the tenth but the chemistry was similar in both uh it just sort of got deeper with the tenth I guess it didn't really change the the the um the companion in the in the new series that did have a change was Clara so she started off with the 11th doctor uh with a certain Dynamic and there was

7:45 a certain there was a special Arc actually in that in that series 7B which I'm currently watching at the moment and really really enjoying more than I did when it was first drafted to be honestly too right I enjoyed so much more recently yeah um and that then there's that shift to the 12th doctor which is a totally different Dynamic there was something totally different between the character of the doctor and Clara between those two regenerations just as there was with Sarah Jane and the third and false doctors so that's my little little comparison there but I love them both I love it I think I think that's partly an age thing I think because John was so much older than Tom so we're aware where the third documents so protective over Joe and so they had

8:32 this lovely protective relationship because Siri is so much more independent it wasn't quite the same relationship but there was still a deep fondness anyway and once again Elizabeth's lady could turn a couple of times and she thought the third doctor was dead twice you know Monster pelagon and spiders there's teas and and this is so much emotion there so you can see that this is deep care but there was nothing because the age difference was there it wasn't you could see it wasn't romantic I guess with Tom there was actually a different slightly different sort of fiction but once again it wasn't it was that sort of sexual fiction at all because Tom's doctor was so romantic so alien uh I mean he could be very human and very warm but there was times in which you know you just saw usually

9:17 that was when he was angry he was most human yeah you might be right there but yeah it's just yeah once again just just an amazing performance and I said she should have been a star um yeah the fact that she didn't go on because anything she acted in she was just amazing and always acting there's never a moment you can catch you're listening you know in the back scene where she's not being Sarah Jane she's just carrying it off all the time so we're going to talk about series two of Sarah Jane Smith the big finish production but a while back we spoke with Gary Russell and we're talking a lot about series one because he was the producer for series one but not for series two he was a bit of a transition going on with Gary Russell so uh where he was actually going to become

10:02 the the script editor for the Sarah Jane Smith Adventures on television so all this was happening around the same time that Series 2 was happening and John Ainsworth was taking over as producer of this series so we've got a little snippet from our chat with Gary that we didn't use before where he's talking a little bit about the transition from Big finish to Sarah Jane Smith and we thought we'd share that with you just before we get into the series 2 retrospective proper another season after this of Sarah I I thought I was quite happy that I'd done what I wanted to do that it turned us out I'm not somebody who likes Arts but having done it I thought the Miss Winter's thing

10:47 worked we left on a slight Cliffhanger if there was another series I never pitched to Jason doing a second series at all um I thought and Liz never asked to do a secretaries with me and there's quite a gap I think but I can't remember exactly that's my series hello four years two thousand he always was 2002 the next one comes out 2006. yeah I was gonna say because we made it in 2001. um did we yeah we did it was quite a long time when we started in 2001 and 2002. um because it was quite a long time to change recording it and it actually getting turned into shiny desks and yeah I think they must

11:33 they must have recorded John must have recorded his Sarah Jane before she went to Cardiff to do school reunion but only just another feeling it came out after school reunion I think the last one came out three weeks before right was transmitted yes but yes I think it was made before she recorded School reunion um uh and then I remember talking to Liz I knew she'd done it and everything else I have a feeling it was done after I left big finish you see I I think it might have been in being talked about I don't know I think John might have made it after I left big finish I honestly can't remember whether I was there while it's being made or not

12:19 um but I know I didn't I certainly didn't see anything of Liz until we did the read through of um of the pilot for Sarah Jane Adventures which I wasn't script editor of um but Russell said to me will you come to the read through and that's like oh yeah okay sure he said I just think Liz would be very happy if she saw a familiar face this is this is a big thing for her she's quite nervous so if you were there it might put her at ease and I was thinking well it might not because you know we haven't seen each other for a few years and and but anyway I went along and she greeted me like her best friend in

13:05 the history of the world and that was lovely so that when I eventually for the second season of the TV show became the script editor it was absolutely brilliant and and you know I had absolute ball with that woman she was amazing and I even didn't mind the amount of time she would phone me at three o'clock in the morning and wake me up and say die I got this problem with this line I don't think Sarah Jane would say butt cheetah and I go Liz do you know what the time is she said yes half past three in the morning you're awake aren't you well I am now um and we've just had huge laughs at three o'clock in the morning and you know I'd say look I will talk to you let me make a cup of tea so

13:50 we'd be talking while I was making tea and it was just brilliant and then I'd go back to sleep at about five o'clock and think I've got to be up but as I had to be in studio at night Studio I had to be in my office for the whole duration of recording so if they were starting at seven in the morning I had to be in the office at seven in the morning and at five in the morning I'm still having conversations with her the leading star of this who also by the way has to be on location and ready to go at seven in the morning uh because she wants to say and rather than butt and and I love that and I miss that about her because that was not a one-off occurrence that was a fairly common occurrence and sometimes she would just ring me at three o'clock in the morning and just go darling it's your Leading Lady here and I've just decided I wanted to ring you at three o'clock in the morning just to wake you

14:36 up and I'd go well thank you that's that's very kind of you and she gave so what's it like on your part of Cardigan my part of card if it's raining and I'd be going training in my part of Cardiff as well Liz because I live about three blocks away from you and I can actually see that your light is on in your flat at the moment I know I thought I'd check you know I watched your light go on as I rang your phone and that's what she was like and we just had a laugh when we had you know four years of that and uh she was brilliant she was absolutely brilliant did she enjoy the um change from your surgery coming back and did she enjoy it I don't know did she enjoy it yes of course she enjoyed it she loved it I don't think she ever

15:22 stopped being nervous I don't think she ever quite believed in the success of not the show because she's 100 believed in that I think she had a problem accepting that people would want to watch a 50-something-year-old woman playing the lead in a kids TV show and I think she never I remember when she died the thing that we all were saying about it is that outpouring on CBBC that happened I wish he could have seen that because she would have finally accepted that everybody loved her and I think Liz's Psychology was she would never quite

16:08 believe that she she would never believe that she was as popular as she was um and it's just a shame it took her dying and and she still never would have known about how popular she was um and then there's a there's a horrible irony about that she was deeply insecure about that sort of thing uh and she just never needed to be because she was so talented and so nice and she was so brilliant with those kids uh you know Tommy and Ange and Danny um just they learned so much from her about being actors um and I think they learned a lot about life from her as well because you know Liz Liz is quite if you ask Liz a straightforward question you get a

16:54 straightforward answer she she doesn't Molly cuddle um and I think you know that was a very tight little group of those three kids um uh so yeah it was it was a good it was a good run it was good fun soon oh yeah we could have gone on I mean as far as I know the agreement from CBBC was this series keeps going until well I mean I think the agreement with Russell was this series he's going until you stop wanting to do it Russell um I didn't think we ever sat down and thought oh we're going to get renewed I mean we did and the finance people worried about that but we also kind of knew that the back of our heads it was

17:39 like we have a fairly open invitation from CBBC here to keep going until Russell doesn't want to do it and Russell would not have stopped until Liz didn't want to do it and everything was always Liz do you want to do another year of this yes right we'll do it do you want to do another two years ago yes then we'll do it um it was very much led by what Liz wanted to do and that's how it should be how big was Russell's involvement huge huge is his show totally his show um I mean he didn't well he was more involved in that I think than he probably was with tortured on the day-to-day basis but it was it was definitely a Phil Ford's show as a showrunner um but Russell was in love with Sarah James so much um

18:24 I think probably the last season he he was slightly more room because he was doing the the move to America around that time um but no it was his show it was his baby all the way down the line every character was his every everything you know and Julie as well they were both very very heavily involved in it and then Phil looked after the actual script side of it what was the difference of technique for you in terms of uh going from the audio series to this TV series oh no no comparison the audio series Ivy's Russell I was a showrunner on the TV series I was a script editor and the script editor doesn't really have a huge amount of power I mean I work

19:10 with the writers very very closely um but you know I'm not in charge of commissioning I'm not in charge of deciding what the story lines will be that's fields and Russell's job um so working on the the TV show as a scripture is much more Nuts and Bolts um with the occasion ability to throw ideas into the mix but usually I learned quite early on that the best time for me to be creative as a script editor is to do that with the writers is not to do that with the XX the the execs don't need to know that I've had conversations right so they'll have about doing this how about doing that um so that was my time to be creative was working with the writers and it helped that I knew Liz it helped that I knew Sarah Jane um but then you know having said that so did all our writers you got Gareth

19:56 you've got Joe you've got Clayton you've got Rupert you got Phil um they all knew Doctor Who back to sort of you know the Year Dot we were all big Doctor Who fans so it's why it was quite a hard show I know other writers tried to write for Sarah Jane over the years and if you didn't know those characters and you didn't know the background and you didn't know what doesn't doesn't work in Sarah Jane it wasn't like any other kids CBBC show to my mind how would you say to Russell and you know he said absolutely was what the intention was to me this felt like we were remaking classic era Doctor Who and he was making new series Doctor Who and I said and this is Sarah Jane is that perfect

20:42 little sort of made with a a 21st century sensibility and technique but with a foot very firmly planted in the 1970s and 80s and and if you didn't know that if you didn't have that um sensibility automatically in your head writing for the show was quite difficult and we were lucky we were blessed that we had brilliant writers yeah I just recently watched all seasons with my 11 year old and he has just fallen in love with Sarah Jane like I did the same age quite right too because that's that's that's what the show is about it's making I say you know for me it's making it's a show in my head for eight to 12 year olds with a sort of little um a little something for the older ones as

21:29 well but you know you you mentally go this is for eight to twelve year olds to grow up with and and be in love with in the same way that Harry Potter was um and I think you know it's a brilliant show so proud of Sarah Jacob and just absolutely wonderful there isn't a bad step in it all right so it's always great to hear from uh from Gary isn't it uh his memory and what the detail he has is is extraordinary all right so we'll start off with Story one from the series which is called buried secrets and then we'll we'll have a chat with some of the makers and stars of that particular story and uh throughout we're going to be interspersing chats with each of our guests so you will get to know their

22:14 voices no doubt or if you're watching on YouTube and you should be subscribing and commenting too you will get to know them there too so I'll read the blurb for buried secrets Sarah Jane Smith believes her days as a crusading investigator are behind her safe from those who tried to destroy her but others believe she has a Destiny and they will stop at nothing to prevent her fulfilling it a trip to Florence to help an old friend leads to the unearthing of a murderous conspiracy buried within the city's catacombs here are the headlines at midday police are investigating the sudden death of Hilda Winters she was under house arrest awaiting trial for the theft of sarin nerve gas pellets two years ago Josh try to think of this as a fresh

23:00 start for all of us keep in touch okay ciao a fresh stye I wish it were that simple I spent too many years looking over my shoulder I don't have to do that anymore I found my place in the world lost when allowing for the decomposition I recognize him oh my God it's it's professor brunetti look I don't know how you found me but I have absolutely no comment to make about Miss Winters now just go away I'm not a reporter my name's will will Sullivan you knew my brother Harry [Music] Sarah

23:46 who's it from Miss Winters let me look Dear Miss Smith if you're reading this it means I'm dead and my fears have proof correct rocked up but she's dead [Music] he sent me a letter from Beyond the Grave [Music] simpler crass is opening more Latin rubbish it means book of Tomorrow the exemplary class contains several predictions hence the name book of tomorrow's but these weren't vague prophecies open to any interpretation like those found in the writings of seers like Nostradamus the predictions in the Exemplar class were apparently

24:31 very specific and several of them made mention of an apocalyptic event due in our lifetimes Josh Josh can you hear me Josh you all right Josh what did you say your name was well will Sullivan why don't you sit down will Sullivan here are the facts of the trivia buried secrets number 2.1 in the Sarah Jane Smith range story code was 6j06 written by David Bishop directed and produced by John Ainsworth Sony lizard sladen Jeremy James or this Builder depends what name you want to use for him and Sadie Miller

25:18 with Tom Chad Bond we spoke with Sadie on episode 16 of the sirens audio you can go back and have a listen recorded third of November 2005 released January 2006. it had been three years since the previous Sarah Jane's story had been released Mira signal maneuver music theme and sound design by Steve Buxton and reported with the Moog Studios Sarah Miller as you probably know was the real-life daughter of Elizabeth sladen and actor Brian Miller the character of will Sullivan was originally going to be to be companions Harry Sullivan's nephew not his brother Tom chadbone who plays Will was in Doctor Who's Stories the city of death as Duggan and the Mystery mysterious planet he was also in Blake's seven episode

26:04 countdown as Dell Grant and would return to Big finish to play that character in a series of audio plays the Medici twos excavated was based on real life events the news reader Sean lay is a real BBC news reader and could be heard on radio 4's the world at one and the story was a homage to the mask of man gregora and that's the facts and the trivia so how did you feel about getting into this story and the the first thing they do is announce the death of Hilda Winters I must say that is probably the thing I disliked the most about the whole series which was series one was this amazing Builder because it ended up on a cliffhanger didn't it I'll be back I'll be back says Hilda Winters yes and I love Hilda it's just an amazing

26:49 character what you can immediately tell from the opening moments is the fact that the entire production team has changed and your doctor who did this all the time lots of TV shows do this all the time I know the build change produced and suddenly they'd blow up the station kill half the characters every new producer and writer wants to leave their Mark that's okay and it was obvious that this was going to take a whole new Direction and to be honest once you get into it I love the direction it takes it's it is exciting and vibrant and very different to series one as listen I'm sure you will listen to our series one retrospective I love series one I love the different locations the different stories I love the global I love season one but this is a totally different tact I love it too but it's gonna have a much

27:37 stronger overriding theme it seems one had one in terms of hilden the villain this one though it's going to be much more ingrained but it lets you know straight away by Kelly Gilda we're in a totally different world and what we're leaving scenes one behind so it was a shock I was looking forward to the Cliffhanger I was looking forward to having more Hilda but that's okay because what we got was I think probably even better but yeah I I was surprised what do you think yeah it was a bit uh bit of a shock wasn't it was like oh that I wanted to know what what uh what else she was going to do but very quickly we got into into this new sort of story arc whereas there was a kind of a story arc in series one that was well there was like a thread that went through less less of an arc more of a thread this was very

28:24 very story arc heavy from right from the start and so the the major changes were uh new producer in John Ainsworth we have a writer for every single story same writer David Bishop and um we've got that definite Arc that's going through which is building up and up through each story some amazing cameos from different people um in here for we've got well you mentioned Tom Chad Bond some people I think are just made for radio their voices are just incredible and his is one of them not only is he great to watch on screen in in Doctor Who Blake seven Etc but I think was this his first time with big finish Tom Chad Bond so I think it

29:11 probably was actually it was pretty early on so it was after this he would have come back and played deal Grant he did it Blake seven yeah because it was a long time and lots of Blake seven people in this series as well so we had Stephen greif and Jacqueline Pierce as well playing some major roles that would be all the way through there are a couple of cameos in stories but then they would be very heavily heavily starring in one story each I think it was yeah I'll mention them more as Perfection later on when they had a more major part but yes definitely yeah but it was great to hear to hear their voices too so um the character called Dexter David gooderson so it was interesting to hear his voice uh throughout as well DAV Ross himself um and he's a he's a great radio actor

29:57 too I think he I think David's done lots of radio over the years actually yeah I think that's his main acting profession is Radio so um yeah and and we start to get there's a few different arcs there's the Sarah Jane Arc there's the white the sort of the larger Arc which incorporates other elements from a previous Doctor Who that are going to come in we've got the we've got the um Josh Townsend Arc that begins as well because we've got Josh taking a major decision in this episode that causes starts to cause friction and causes friction between him and Sarah throughout the rest of this he has a big character Arc that his character goes on and once again something I wasn't expecting yeah and

30:42 and it's although I felt by the end of it I thought I should have been expecting this this is this is obviously what it what it's been I think it was just written so well by David Bishop so it does I mean it does it does um redcon series one a bit but it doesn't in a good way with with Josh's character because it redefines how he entered season one and why into this first series but that's okay it was good to do yeah it felt like it'd be planned out even though it obviously wasn't so let's have a listen to what producer John Ainsworth has to say about this production four years after the first season of Sarah Jane Smith was first released the second season was finally going to be produced but with this time with a new man in the hot seat

31:28 and John Ainsworth to go over the job of producing the second season John thank you for joining us it's a pleasure thank you for asking me listen it's been four years between seasons though you would have had much to do with the first season anything at all were you aware of the first season I was aware of it but uh yes I had nothing actually to do with it and I think I listened to it even before I knew I was doing the second series so um but yeah I was just a just part of the audience really at that point so at what stage who asked you and you know how do you end up getting hold of the second season I can't it would have been either Gary or Jason would have suggested that I do it um I mean I produced The Judge Dredd

32:13 series which I think might have come to an end or been in in a sort of Hiatus point at that point so maybe maybe they realized I was a sort of you know available and have the capacity to to take it on um so yes I think it probably would have been Jason to say oh we'd like you to do this we want to do four releases for this one rather than six which the first series was um and take it from there really yeah so what was your starting point how did you decide what you want to do how it's gonna work well I think I I think I listened to the first series and sort of decided what were the the most successful

33:00 points of it um and I think test of nerve which is the one that David Bishop wrote I think for the first series I think that was generally considered as the sort of High Point in terms of it was like the best story um so I think maybe I took the lead from there but I did want to do something quite sort of different with it I think I think initially I wanted to do something actually more different than we actually ended up doing I think I was a little bit I I think if I remember Riley I I didn't want it just to be Doctor Who without the doctor and Sarah if you see what you mean so I think I wanted it to have a very different sort of feel perhaps more realistic and gritty sort of feel um more like a sort of modern day

33:46 Thriller I think and initially with that in mind I did actually talk to some other writers about ideas um but that eventually didn't come it turned out to be too radical I mean I should point out Liz was involved very much uh in discussions about this all the way through she was very Hands-On I said what what put have you met Liz beforehand is this Wendy I think I think I'd met her but didn't know it particularly well I don't think I think we spoke initially spoke briefly on the phone and then I remember we met we met for coffee in London of Oxford Street and had a big sort of chat about it then and then after that it was quite regular phone

34:31 conversation sort of back and forth with sort of ideas and opinions about what way we should take it and everything I mean a lot of it's far more than I've ever had on any other series and certainly not with you know I've never had a a lead actor be so involved so was Liz looking at storylines and story Concepts yeah oh yeah yeah absolutely yes she was very much involved and you know had opinions um which was great so we had I mean I loved all this you know it was it wasn't it wasn't interference you know it was um it was collaboration you know and and I loved it actually it was it was uh really rewarding experience you know because I I held her in the garden uh

35:17 you know opinions about acting and performance and story I thought were you know very valid and so uh you know she had a lot of a lot to contribute I felt so has any other active ever worked with ever had done that being that involved any other actor in big Finnish not to that extent I mean I had a little bit of that with Paul Darrow on black seven a little bit but not no generally most people are sort of happy to sort of I mean I mean actors will always have opinions on on the scripts but it's usually you know I mean like someone like Colin Baker he cares very much about the story but

36:03 if he's if he's concerned he might sort of give me a call a few days before a studio or certainly say something in the studio I remember make little tweaks but not in the sense of actual whole script development no so that that was quite unusual but that's what she wanted to do that's the way she you know she sort of cared about it so much and um wanted it to be good wanted it to show the character in a way that she thought was true to what had already gone before and been established you know I mean she cared very much about Sarah I think and how she was portrayed so that was good really so after much back and forth and talking the decision we made was to actually ask David Bishop to write the whole series all four

36:50 episodes um and we went to him I think mainly because he'd written test of nerve and that was and I think Liz must have agreed with me as well the test of nerve was a really strong story that that she had liked as well um and the reason wanted someone to write all four was because there was quite a through line a story arc uh and it seemed to make sense and I'd work with David before of course on um we've done a lot of just red stuff together before and I think he'd done the Doctor Who and bound before yeah that would have been before this so yeah so David and I were used to working with each other and I knew he was good and um and was you know good fun to collaborate with really

37:36 so that's that's where we go she's all coming back and then talking to you so did you ask Dave to develop storylines or did you have in your head where you wanted to go how much is it was it you in terms of giving Gardens for the any of the Ark at all I'm trying to think I'm sure there was something that influenced me and I was on the verge of saying it was the series alias um but I know that's not true because it was only later I hadn't seen Alias at that point so he couldn't have been Alias but I remember Lee binding who did the covers for us when he'd read the scripts he actually sort of flagged up there was some similarities between Alias and what we had done I think there's a bit uh there's a bit in the first story

38:22 where Sarah finds is it sir she finds a portrait of herself buried behind a wall is that right I mean I haven't heard it for ages I think I mean there's all the prophecy about Sarah and what was going to happen in the future that was done from the past that maybe that's what I'm thinking maybe it was just the prophecy and maybe it's an alias that was actually they discovered this drawing of of the main character in alias in a crypt or something with a similar sort of Prophecy type thing yeah they they talk about they just talk about the fact that the prophecy she's described and she matches the description

39:08 there's hundreds of series of match the description but they narrowed it down to Sarah Jane Smith right okay okay yeah and I think that element was a little bit similar to something that happened at alias and at the point the Lee binding pointed this out I think I was a little bit worried that it looked like we deliberately copied it even though I'd never seen the TV series so it was just a coincidence I mean in hindsight I don't think anyone made the connection or you know raised it as a concern but I think I was quite keen on this whole idea of yeah sort of Prophecy and and that be the through line for the for the the story and I think that's probably what I was suggesting to David and then from that point we just sort of developed it okay so let's hear from

39:56 writer David Bishop the first Sarah Jane Smith audio drummers came out 2002. and then there was a Gap a Hiatus after that and there was talk of a second season in the second series and then not much really happened with it um and then I guess sometime in 2005 uh big finish we're looking to do a a second series uh of the series audios and uh and then John Ainsworth I believe was producer for it um and reached out to me and asked if I would be interested in writing for it and I said absolutely because you know I I really enjoyed writing tests of Novel

40:41 though it was very early on in my big Finnish career as it were of writing audio dramas and by this point 2005 I've written a lot more audio dramas I'd written for Sapphire and steel I've done uh 475 my Unbound 506 judge dreads by that point and I'd written a radio play as well so for the BBC's as a consequence I'd written a lot more Audio Drama and I felt a lot more comfortable and felt able to do more and being more ambitious in the storytelling now as I understand it uh John was talking to other had talked to other writers and had sort of gone down the path with other writers to write for for series two and whatever reason that hadn't worked out none of which I knew at the time of course everybody wants to think that there is to get the offer uh but hey ho

41:29 I got the job um so John reached out to me and asked if I would be interested in in writing for the series and I was like yes absolutely I'd love to um I'd love to write more for it and I can't remember for the life of me how it was anyway with it he asked me to write the whole thing or pitch ideas for it I need to check my notes actually um but the idea was uh um that I could write four stories write the whole of the series effectively and therefore there is the capacity to sort of introduce threads and story elements and different strands and have them run through the totality of the stories it would be although it would be four Standalone stories you could enjoy in isolation if you listen

42:15 to all of them in sequence there was it built to a much larger story leading to a certain from one place to another so actually kind of a forerunner for the box sets the big finish does now where the expectation is that you get the lot and you sit down and you listen to them all but in those days it was still sort of monthly release so they had to work as standalones rather than this built into a complete story um so that was an interesting Challenge and I think it was the first time I mean it's four hours of of drama effectively so it was it was like writing my own little mini TV show or radio drama so I was like oh I couldn't wait it was like this was you know dream come true for me so what were the changes that you needed to make in terms of uh Sarah Jane Smith character over there things you were asked to change

43:01 incorporate um move away from from the first series I mean Sarah's very paranoid in that first series is that sense of she's always looking over her shoulder she's not quite on the run but she doesn't trust the police she struggles to trust other people and I think the initial idea was to make a less paranoid and have a somewhat slightly removed from things so she's not trying to be at least my memory she's not trying to be a a working journalist quite so much March 2005 it seems I'm writing proposed plots and character arcs so um I pitched four story ideas uh for series two uh

43:47 and the first story I pitched got completely next got cut down and it was about uh so the note I've got here there's I think it was about yeah it was um a problematic story it was all going to be about uh experiments that were going to give Nat the ability to walk again and to sort of remove her disability and everybody felt that was problematic to put it mildly um and in retrospect they were absolutely right um so yeah so the my initial pitch for the first story got Scotch got completely binned um sorry it's come up with a replacement for that um and of course in the series second series it's it's uh Harry's brother that

44:33 we meet is is the significant character and originally that was going to be Harry's nephew uh was my original pitch it was all going to revolve around Harry's nephew because it was like trying to figure out the differential of who was going to form play What role in the story um yeah because it was going to end up with when it was Harry's nephew the danger was that Harry's nephew was going to be a contemporary of Josh and they ended up with Sarah just being the mother hen of all these Whipper Snappers running around the place um so it was decided instead to go with Harry's brother because that would um Sarah would have a contemporary rather than everybody being 20 years younger than that of course when Russell T Davis would create the Sarah Jane Smith TV series that'd all be whipper slippers running around above the head

45:20 oh completely yeah but then that's for a different audience that that's yeah for both her family kids audience run adults yeah exactly that's aimed at 7 to 12 year olds effectively so that's entirely appropriate you want to have the kids at the foreground and then the Sarah Jane character uh operating and assisting them and guiding them and leading the way with her knowledge and everything so completely appropriate for the Sarah Jane Adventures but it was a danger of everybody being far too young and Sarah being cast in the role of you know motherhood or grandmother here and if you're not careful um so yeah so the first story got completely put into the bin um and so I needed to come up with a replacement for that first story of what that could be um and the reason I ended up being

46:06 buried secrets is I was uh at the time uh researching an idea for a series of historical Thriller novels which I have since now finally started writing and Publishing uh as DV Bishop so I was I spent 20 years not wrote writing those books so at this point I think I had done about eight years of research into Renaissance Florence and the Medici and the crypts and the tombs and all of that uh so that's where Barry's Secrets uh came from was I thought well I need a new plot in a hurry and I've got all this knowledge and all this research I've done I can stick those two together and come up with a story here that could be a way to pull the threads together and also uh as a callback to mask of I never know is it mandragora or men

46:53 dragoner I never know how do you remember I've heard people say it different ways and I never know how you meant to say it when I was reading the target novels and I hadn't seen it on TV yet it was always mandragora in my head but of course in the TV series that's mandragara hmm yeah well there you go yeah I'm not sure we had a very patchy broadcast of the Tom Baker stories originally and Doctor Who we didn't even get Genesis of the Daleks until the 1980s for God's sakes um they just left out whole chunks of things no I was convinced that those clams eating Harry's foot were going to be the best thing in the world ever uh because all I had was you know the target

47:39 novelization telling me what they look like oh that sounds incredible anyway that's a different podcast so yeah so I uh it was a way to tie those elements together and set up the idea of the the Helix ROM mask coming back 500 years later in the anniversary of that and the idea that would come back again so that's where I managed to sort of pull those threads together reach back into the the backstory of of Sarah Jane and her adventures in the Tardis and start to draw that Arc that would cross all four stories and get you to where it finally concludes with the big Cliffhanger that drove some people absolutely potty uh but there we go yes no absolutely potty it's a driven Cliffhanger and I'm still potty

48:27 Yeah we actually asked John was there plans for third season to resorb it and he was sort of saying well it wouldn't have been him and bad luck someone else could dealt with this so did you did you I think that was probably I think that may have been my as well well we'll give you away with the Cliffhanger is we are encourage people to buy all these and listen to them but in terms of did you in your head a resolution for that um I mean in the ideal what you would have as you would have had the sound of the TARDIS just as the just at the final moment you might have just heard a faint wheezing groaning noise in the background uh with the implication and then you could have started uh series three if it happened anywhere in any

49:12 time and Sarah could just be waking up and either use that she wakes up and was at all a dream and no it wasn't and how did she get back here or She's accused of having done trying to blow up you know the the space shuttle or whatever it was called um or else she's in a different place in time and you can start she can be earlier later you could move her to wherever and the implication being that the doctor has saved her well she's found something needs to save herself I was so far removed from Doctor Who and it was her own story here in place the Tardis being what she was seeing didn't even occurs me but the you go yes I could I could see them I mean for all we know it's um you know it's oh

49:59 whether a name Jenna Coleman's character who's character name I've now completely blotted out of my head who went around changing all of history and arranging things um there we go Clara could have turned up and save yourself for all we know these days Tom chadbone courtesy of big finish magazine when I get a script I read it and then I read it for what my character knows about what's happening to him when I first read the first two episodes I had no idea so I played it quite straight that was quite good really but it I'm hopeless with the overall plot I leave that to the director and the editor and the writers I just do the best with what I'm saying what I think is what the script says he is I mean he's a sort of public school he's you

50:44 know Josh takes exception to him because he's sort of the sort of one there's a bit of a red rag to the bull to um a chap like uh Josh and Philip it's such a pleasure to have back again for this episode Jess Fielder so previously we talked about season one um it went down really well with fans bill will take four years before a second season would happen um what was your understanding in that time in terms of why it would take so long to come back well um interesting I didn't really know what was happening and I don't know if anybody else did either um yeah I mean I I'd heard um that it gone down quite well and the reviews have been very good I remember that um some of them very kind um but you know it was it was it was a pretty decent product I thought um

51:31 another Liz Liz carried it majestically and um so there was kind of radio silence on it and you know you don't want to be pestering people about it and I was as you know I was doing a loaded between the two series I was banging out a load of Judge dreds and I was um and and Nick was giving me work in Dalek Empire um playing Herrick which I really enjoyed um that Dalek Empire is probably what I got the stupidest voices to do and that was just absolute Joy um so I could there was quite a lot going on in that in that period and then but I you know I'd occasionally see um Gary and John who took over from Gary on it and and then I talked to Nick and they go oh yeah no no we are we are

52:17 that's still on the Yeah Yeah Yeah well yeah well um and it was like okay all right nothing nothing was really coming through then um I was lying in bed one Sunday morning and uh my phone rang and it was my old mate Mark Donovan who who done lots of stuff a big finish and was made um a number of cameos in the Sarah Jane Adventures and um and he said what are you doing right now I said I'm in bed why he said because um uh come to uh come to the Hilton in them in Paddington or edgeware road or something I don't know where it was it was a big hotel somewhere in London I said no no what are you there what are

53:03 you what Mark what's going on I'm I'm frightened what's that he says no it's it's a Doctor Who convention I went oh right now um I've got um there's there's United are playing at three o'clock and I'm just gonna go to the pub no no no no no come come here because um um people are buying me drinks there's loads of fans and they they've listened to the audios it's not just the TV it's not just the TV lot getting special treatment come on you'll get loads of beer I was like well this is a different proposition Mark I'll be there in 45 minutes so I go I go to the and sure enough you know this this book The Big finish audio book had just come out and and so you know this is being touted around this is beautiful heavyweight thing

53:49 and people are coming up to me going oh look look at Mark Gaithers has said something nice about you in the fantasmagorn I was like shall we see that oh God bless him he has and that could you sign would you sign it for me I was like yes if you get me a part of Guinness and this is just I was like oh yeah we'd love to buy your drink oh yeah great buy me a drink so I saw seven or eight pints of Guinness down then Liz turns up and I didn't even know she's gonna be there she's like so so we must go and have a chat so we went up to some some I believe they call it an empty room and um we sat down and and we were just chatting away and then she goes ah they want to do a they want to do another one I said oh they do I said I

54:34 haven't heard I mean I've spoken to a couple of people about it and they were like yeah it's sort of yeah we'll come back to you she goes yeah no no I got a call last week so it's cool that I've seen you what do you think do you think do you think we should do it I was like you really what do you want me to say Liz uh no I think it's a terrible idea I don't want to work with you again uh that we should just leave it at one you know she went so what so so so you mean we should do it I said well yeah that's what I mean there's yeah we should we should go some the fans liked it didn't they but this is that this is the mark of Liz right she's she only she only cares about what she wasn't it wasn't for for her it wasn't for it wasn't for Sadie it wasn't for me it was for the fans and the fans liked it she just wanted she wanted to chew it over and say that if

55:20 the fans liked it we should do it right and I was like of course but but we had fun this didn't we she goes oh yes we have yeah great fun well then what's not to she's like you're right you're right I'm just being silly and then about two weeks after that um John calls and says oh I'm uh taking this one and um we want to we want to start getting this into pre-production are you on board it's like yeah he is obviously you don't even need to phone me so yeah I know but I have to tick a box and that's yeah and then and then as I say for almost four years later to the to the to the month it was um it was a recording now when they used David Bishop for all the stories which I thought was interesting choice yeah because he was um I've done lots of stuff with with the bish well I was going to ask about that so

56:05 it's a vertical approach that you know John Ainsworth directed all four stories one writer doing the whole series what was your impression of that well I thought they'd I think they tried with the various writers idea on series one you know you you had I mean I I don't know I'm not a script editor I don't know how much of a of a consistency nightmare it was to to kind of you know a line um you know Terence Dix and Barry let's try to get them to have a kind of consistency of tone and character and um but I mean that's the that's the genius job of the script editor obviously sort of unsung hero of all drama um and I I suspect although you should probably interview the script and I said but I suspect it was like if we just get

56:51 one guy in I'm gonna have fewer phone calls to make I'm gonna have fewer Corrections and I'm gonna have less of a nightmare you know in each of those first you know it's not a criticism on anything that I mean the fact that I was the first one I did was written by Terence Dixie wrote the five doctors I was very excited about um and you know it was a great idea having all these different different writers um and they did they did five very very different adventures and that was that was fun and I think the choice of of bringing bringing David in and just sort of having having that one consistent narrative idea and you know allowing the the writer to sort of go over the edge of the page and go into another episode and have like a through line which is what series two very much is it's leading up to something it's a

57:37 bit it's it's what it's one big episode I think really whereas the other season one was very much five five separate sort of Vineyards um yeah so do you think that I mean Davis Bishop in the first is was test of nerve that's actually what we want so that he nailed I think there's I think there's an element of that um you know I think Chester nerve was was probably the best was probably the strong I think it was my favorite episode out of all of them and it it owes something I think to Department s he says going on about Peter Wingard again but um there is an episode of Department s with Anthony Hopkins starring opposite Peter Wingard in it and it's called a small war of nerves

58:24 and it's you know there's there's a there's a disastrous chemical at large in a city with you know a potential um era defining catastrophe so I don't so you know I I admire the fact that there's maybe there's a link maybe it was accidental I don't know but that was there was something attracting me to that and also um let me just tell you that um the the morning of recording of test of nerve um I walked in to find this this elderly gentleman not really knowing where he was um dressed dressed very very modestly um I honestly thought he was you know I I I would just working there and cleaning up or something and just this this nice old man and I

59:11 said hello all right are you all right mate you are you lost he's like yes I said oh um what do you Houdini do you want Toby's the guy that runs the studio Toby Robinson do you want me to find him for you I'm looking for the Green Room actually I said oh well I'm going there as well you're doing that are you doing the the audio oh yes yes I said oh well hi what's and I'm I'm Jazz he says oh I'm right I'm right Roy Skelton and I went oh wow are you really Roy Skelton he said well yes I said can you do my answering machine Roy Skelton obviously celebratedly being

59:57 a Dalek in the early days was also zippery from Rainbow the voice of my childhood and um sadly because I moved away from the UK the my number's gone and the answering machine's gone with it which is such a shame um but basically if you phoned me before I went away to France um you would hear Roy Skelton and um and uh you know what what a lovely what lovely boat and he was brilliant in it it was really brilliant in that um Tessa nerve so I very fond memories of that one I think yeah but your point about did they think that they'd probably hit the nail on the head more with that than any of the other episodes very very

1:00:42 possible okay so let's have a closer look at Story number two Philip uh snow blind is the name of the story and here is the blurb Sarah giant Smith travels to Antarctica where her friend will is part of a research team studying global warming but someone at Nikita base is a murderer and everybody has a guilty secret when a massive storm severs all Communications the killer strikes and the truth is revealed will anyone get off the ice alive Sarah you've only met this will Sullivan once and now you're traveling Halfway Around the World to visit him I'm going to see how Monroe and his team are spending aren't lavinia's money visiting World while I'm there is a happy

1:01:28 coincidence that's all Makita base this is Echo Romeo 79er out of McMurdo how's your weather over good Landing can be present but be advised the situation is deteriorating Jack's coming in to land he's bringing two visitors with him one is Sarah Jane Smith who helped sponsor this study or why didn't you mention they were coming earlier I wish you hadn't come Sarah whoops you invited me remember yes but you couldn't have picked a worse time to arrive Monroe took a swing at me I think he's cracking up he's been getting increasingly paranoid since the others left no doubt Sullivan told you how he got that black eye well to be fair it took some coaxing

1:02:13 I'm sorry I hit him he's not the real troublemaker it's that woman Logan a few holes in the ground don't get people excited but what we found beneath the ice that could change the world what is your problem problem why should I have a problem you've been giving me grief since we first met it's not jealous aren't you you and more government is stupid no of Sarah and me I don't know what you're talking about look if you're trying to frighten me you're doing a pretty good job cry harder hello

1:03:00 someone there Josh will the others have gone tune me now Sarah whatever you do don't come to Antarctica it isn't safe for you here Sarah [Music] foreign effects and the trivia number 2.2 in the search engine range story code was sj07 written by David Bishop directly produced by John Ainsworth starring Elizabeth sladen and Jeremy James for this build up with Tom chadbone recorded 4th of November 2005 and

1:03:45 released February 2006. music theme and sound design was by Steve Buxton and recorded again at The Milk Studios Nicholas Griggs is best known for playing Dalek Cybermen and other monsters he plays a very scary human being Dreadful and Pierce who played chessine in the Doctor Who story of the two doctors but is probably best known for playing Supreme Commander in prison silverland on black 7. she has first appeared on big finish on the Seventh Doctor story fear manga and would later play civil on a mini Big Cliff Productions and also Cardinal olestra in the War Doctor series this story was a homage to the seeds of Doom yeah I really love this story Philip

1:04:31 it's probably if if anyone asked me what the standout story was it would be this one I think because it's a homage to the seeds of Doom and you know you've got got the same setting there it's got some really interesting characters yeah I always I always enjoy Nick Briggs when he's doing humans especially accented humans with um uh you know with a villainous villainous I suppose the word is um well he starts off that way at the very least um but this also carries on the continues on the arc um that is that is happening because the story and the previous story ended on a cliffhanger with with Will jumping on the phone and saying to Sarah

1:05:16 don't come to Antarctica please don't come to Antarctica whatever you do and of course she doesn't get the message and she comes to Antarctica so it all goes from there and then by the end of the story we find out a new revelation about will that that we didn't know before so I think overall this was a a fantastic story and we haven't mentioned much about Steve foxen yet because he he's new for sound design on this series and he's done a great theme tune and he's captured the the feel of Antarctica really really well yep I mean another Market actually that was a new production team was the new theme I think the thing that appeals to me about this story is the whole base Under Siege it is I know it's a you know classic Doctor Who Trope but when you actually

1:06:03 do a base Under Siege well with the small cast of characters it's actually very engaging and the way that David Bishop managed to split up the characters at different times to have different conversations with different pairings and still manage to put them in jeopardy there's a few you know very powerful moments but it's quite nerve-wracking and as I said the sound design just adds so much to what's going on and also the way that it's a homage to seeds of Doom but it's also a flip because what you are expecting isn't there and so that's a very clever part of the story that keeps you intrigued but doesn't happen yeah and what we did mention about the previous story was that it was a a great character piece between Sarah Jane and will Sullivan uh them getting to know each other

1:06:48 so that relationship is is starting to be tested by the end of this uh episode um very much because we find uh another Arc this this series is just full of arcs because we've got the will Sullivan Arc too he comes in being Harry's brother quite innocently and that changes throughout as well and we're starting to to discover that there's something deeper going on within this series than we initially suspected by Snowblind so by the end of this we have got another Cliffhanger each episode ends on a cliffhanger and I should say big finish I love the way and I've said it before I'll say it again I love the way that each installment of this has a previously on Sarah Jane Smith a trailer before

1:07:36 every episode starts because it's um it's I like that I like the way it does that and and you need it because because the complexity of the stories beforehand I mean if if this was released today it would have been released as a box set they wouldn't have split this out over four months but that being said you know there's something to be said about you know cliffhanger's will lead you on to the next story and lots of reasons used to do that which I know people tend to just binge things now but yeah this the one a month I was so excited each month when this was coming out I'm waiting for the next one to come wait for my CD to arrive as Agony back in those days back before yeah oh yeah it was before downloads wasn't it before downloads so I was waiting in the post for it to come and it was so exciting

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