Spend Your Money NOW - Before It’s Too Late! (Bill Perkins Final Warning)

0:00 I don't give a [ __ ] about saving. I don't give a [ __ ] about spending. I care about fulfillment and thriving. We have all learned to focus on saving your money for your golden years. But our next guest says actually do the opposite. I've read your book probably five to six times because I am the exact opposite. You're afraid of running out of money. I'm afraid of wasting my life. You are living in fear of something in the future and robbing yourself of your current life. Delayed gratification indefinitely is no gratification. And unfortunately, your body has a vote and it's going to decay and you will not be able to get that gratification to the extent you can. Now, I mean, Google lists your net worth at over $100 million. So, some people are going to comment that it's not just that easy. For those who are like have

0:46 average intelligence and lots of hustle, there's so many ways to make money. What's your advice to people with a low income? Like, if you're very poor, the first step you're trying to do is Bill Perkins, thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee Hour. It's good to be on. We have two lives and the second one begins when we realize we only have one. What does this quote mean to you? It means that um I think a lot of people behave as if they're going to live forever or they're going to get a second life like in video games. And when you realize that you only have one life, one ride on this planet, you begin to take it a little bit more seriously. uh you begin to care a little bit less about what other people think and you begin to dive deep and chase after what you

1:32 really want out of this ride. It's interesting because I've read your book probably five to six times in total. It's the one book that people keep telling me to read through because I am the exact opposite of everything that you describe in the book. I am ex I'm extremely frugal. I like saving money at all costs and I like delaying gratification. For me, I get a lot of peace of mind knowing that like 30 years from now, I'll have enough versus living it up today. Right. But is that a fear-based thinking or is that an optimized for fulfillment type thinking? I would say probably 80% fear, 20% optimization, right? And so fear is a great thing that we have, right? It keeps us alive. It keeps us from eating bears or lions on the on the uh Serengeti when we we were

2:18 in tribe, right? And it prevents you from getting mugged or whatever it is, right? But it doesn't help you thrive. It only helps you survive. And you're surviving, right? But you're not thriving. And you're not thriving in probably one of the best periods of your life where you have your health uh and the ability to take advantage of everything that's around you. Whether you want to go hella skiing, swimming, etc. Your health is not going to limit you. Your mental acuity is not going to limit you. Um if you wanted to go to school or college or spend money on that, your lung capacity isn't going to limit you. And so you are living in fear of something in the future and robbing yourself of your current life. Your life has led you to have this very interesting philosophy around why you should spend money while you're young

3:05 instead of saving for the delayed gratification. For those unfamiliar, how did you make your money? I started making money as a uh broker of commodities and then really made significant amounts of capital as a commodities trader in natural gas. And so that's where the money came from. How do you learn how to do that? How do you learn how to trade natural gas and profit from it? I I think you have to be a person that is, you know, unafraid of risk. Uh has kind of like a stoic attitude about things in order to take the losses and and the stress associated with it. I think most people have the intelligence to be a trader, but they don't have the mental fortitude to be a trader. And then you just have to want it. And so what I wanted um to shorten the story is essentially to be able to exchange uh a

3:50 few hours of my time for a lot of hours of everybody else's time, right? That's what money represents is your time, right? You spend time doing something and you acquire this thing called money which is funible for other people's time, right? Their goods and services. And so I wanted to be rich, you know, I wanted to be rich. I wanted to chase the girls. I wanted to, you know, live the rockstar life, you know, that's what a a young me, you know, those those are kind of the goals, right? Like on autopilot, right, of what do I what do I think I want out of life, but I didn't want to have to choose or be frugal or not buy Starbucks. I wanted to not even care what the price was. I wanted to have enough resources to exceed my wants. And so, in that case, are you trading your own money or are you working for a firm that gives you capital and you're trading that capital and getting a percentage of the other? Both. Both. I I'm a I rent out my brain

4:35 and I I get a percentage of the money that I make for other people. So some people, you know, they they they rent out their bodies, they do manual labor. Uh I I I'm a mental. But what set you apart that you were so profitable at doing this? Like why were you different than everyone else who's tried doing this and failed? I think it's a curiosity and stoicism. So the the ability to handle losses and still be able to think through things um basically gives you an edge. Um and and that's not necessarily in trading. That's in life and romantic relationships etc. When things are going wrong in romantic relation, the person that's like going crazy or things are really bad in a relationship um will have reactions that are not necessarily helpful and those things add up. and a person who's a little bit calmer will think

5:21 through things, try to come to resolution, will do things that are are accreative to the relationship or or healing to the relationship. And so that's huge in any field. Um the other thing is just being very curious and dedicated to it. So you're very good at what you you guys do here. You spend a lot of time and effort. You're curious. You're you're looking at how other people do things. You're incorporating things that work. You're experimenting. You just become better at something. How did you cultivate this stoicism? Because for me right now, like it's easy to be stoic when things are good. But right now with like the tariffs and this and that and I see my portfolio, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is just he refuses to even open my account because I've realized that that's the best way that I can remain stoic in times like this. But if I do check it, I can notice myself

6:07 getting a little bit emotionally connected to the outcome." And I know that's like for an investor not what you should want. You kind of just have a method, tried and true method. How did you cultivate this stoicism? I think one it's training uh just reading books the daily stoic looking at the quotes etc. Just kind of like repeating that but also um losing the ego losing the ego attachment to the result and learning to enjoy the ride and the process and just kind of sticking with that and being okay with being broke or looking like an idiot or looking like a fool. And so I I kind of developed that over time. You know, I was kind of trained in that as a kid and the environment I was in. And so, you just learn not to care what other people think, including yourself. And then you're just kind of detached from all this like fear.

6:53 What do you mean trained as a kid? Like, how are you? I think um you know, I'm I'm an old guy, right? I I was born in ' 69. Um and I'm like post civil rights kid where the world was a lot different place growing up. And so there was overt racism like TV shows and and stuff that was going on then, right? Uh would just be completely banned or shut out right now. And when you know I say this like when people have kind of like this idea of who you are, let's say you're racist against Indians or blacks or whatever, right? You learn to know that that's not true. I can either accept that and adopt that attitude or not give a what other people think. Now little did I know at that time right that I was being trained

7:39 to not give a what people think right at all right because like it doesn't matter what you do or what you say or you know I don't need to prove myself to those other people right they have their opinions and that's on them right and you you read books like uh don't take it personal that kind of quote out of the four agreements one of my favorite books of all time if anybody asked me what's the best book on trading I go the four agreements what's the best book on this the four agreements ment that is a superpower the don't give a type of people uh I don't care what other people think including yourself because a lot of the negative talk that people have comes from themselves so how did you actually go and and make changes from what you were reading though because a lot of people they face adversity like that or just adversity in general and it spins

8:25 them down the negative consequence that sort of life rather than the taking it and turning it into a positive like why what made you any Nobody learns piano overnight, right? So if if if if I say, "Hey, it'll be really great if you ever play piano." You're like, "Yeah, I I really want to learn piano. This is great." And I come back the next day, I'm like, "You're banging on the piano." Like, "This is terrible." Right? Like you're not going to learn life. I come back in a week, you still haven't in a month, still haven't learned it. But if you keep at it, right, over the course of a year, you're going to be like, "Holy [ __ ] this guy can play piano and he's pretty good." And so I say that to realize that whatever behavior you're trying to acquire, whatever mindset you're trying to acquire, you're not going to learn them overnight, right? Like these habits take time and you have to stick with it. And so when you say like how do you

9:11 acquire it? It's just practice, practice, practice. So despite all of your challenges and adversity, I mean Google lists your net worth at over $und00 million. And I just have to ask like are these Google estimates based in any sort of reality? Not really. I mean, you can you can influence what the estimate is. You don't you kind of don't want your your net worth out there. Is is has it been north of $100 million? Yes, it has been. Has it been, but with these tariffs recently things have been less than that? Yeah. I I mean I I get I get smashed on days just like the everybody else, right? Like it's going up and down. I'm looking I'm like, "Oh, I have to spend less this year or maybe a lot less from the next 5 years." uh you know or or I get to spend more you know over the next five years or next year you know

9:58 what's interesting is in your book you say that you have to pick a time in your life where you want your net worth to be at its peak correct and then after that then your net worth should decline as you age which is completely counterintuitive to a lot of people like you should always be growing and as you're growing you can always just continue scraping a little bit more off the top what was your age that you picked that you wanted your net worth to be at it's it's right about now right about now. And so that can change, right? Because it's your biological age, right? Like at the end, like if we can just do this simply, like the day before you died, you you don't want your net worth going up, right? You want to spend everything you got. But unfortunately, your body decays. It doesn't just die, right? And so long before that, you'll be doing less things and have less use for money, right? So in terms of your net worth, was this

10:44 intentional to pick right now or was this because the market was going up so rapidly that you couldn't spend? has nothing to do with market has has to do with your biological age and your body decaying. So how do you test this? This is this is one of the hardest parts like like this is reasons why it's not a strict formula. You have to understand like there are people smoking, heavily overweight, etc. at 40 who should be spending like rock stars, right? And there are people who are 5 years older than me who are like, "Hey, you you're actually still in plateau, right?" like they're running iron mans, they're they're running marathons, there's like they have the body of a 30-year-old, right? And they're able to do all the things, right? And so it's really based on like how are my knees functioning? What's my lung function? Am I do I have cardiovascular disease? What's my lung

11:30 capacity? You know, what's my V2 max? Am I able to go to Paris and walk seven miles and really enjoy Paris? Or am I going to walk one mile? You know, my parents, my mom, it's like it's a lot of people have parents where it's hard to even get them on a plane for 10 hours. They don't need any money for traveling, do they? Right? Do they need that international ticket? No. Do they, you know, it so you can see the utility, their ability to convert their money into experiences or into fulfillment declines as you age, right? I'm just giving you a couple examples. And that really depends on your biological age, not just the numerical year you were born. And so a lot of that is just you know there's this whole quantified self crowd that you know optimize for health like the Gary Breers and Peter Tears and Hubman's of the world etc. You know

12:17 which Peter T is my doctor you know we do all the stats etc. And I'm like okay you know I'm a bad boy yes I should be doing more cardio but given where I am this is kind of the things I'll be able to do over the course of my life and this is what the last 10 years of my life is going to look like. So based on that, how long are you expected to live for? I think I'm a 76 to 84 guy. 84 is probably what the charts would say. I've heard for anyone who's under the age of 50 now that they could live past 100 with with modern AI and medicine merging and Yeah. could. And everybody with a biology textbook could get an A in biology. But that's not how it goes, does it? You know what I mean? Like these coulds Yeah. are are or are are just like what is achievable, not what human beings do,

13:04 right? It's like, oh, why why do some people get A's and ones why do some people flunk out, right? Like they just don't they're not they're out of compliance, right? They don't do their homework. They they have other priorities, etc. Well, regardless of whatever Google says, you've done really well for yourself, made a great living. When did you first become rich versus when did you start to feel rich? I felt rich before I became rich. Um, and I think it was around 25 when you know when you started feeling rich. Oh, no. Before that, like 22. As soon as I made more money than my mom, it was like the best day of my life. You felt completely Oh my gosh. You couldn't have told me. I was like, what sort of lifestyle? What sort of lifestyle? And and the funny thing is I was still living at home with my mom, not paying rent. I was just about to move out to to

13:49 to the to the pizza oven that I lived in with Jason Rufo. Um, but do you think you felt richer then or now? Then I mean just the feeling of just like just the the upward trajectory, the the the rate of change in my life was just so great. And going from straight broke to like 50s something,000 a year. That's how much you made to Yeah. something 40 50 whatever the number is. I was like, "Oh, I'm a buppy." That stands for black urban professional for those people who don't know. There's yuppies and buppies. And I was just ecstatic. Ecstatic. I had extra discretionary income. I could take a girl on a date. I could pay for It was the best feeling. Um I I think it was like uh late 20s, 28, 29. I was rich, you know, millionaire.

14:35 So you made millions between the ages of 22 and 29. Yes. What did you do with the money? I didn't really do much the first time. I didn't, you know, I was so uh inculcated with the hive mind culture, right? I didn't know what to do. Go to Vegas, hang out with friends, go to bars, right? like I didn't really think about what do I really want, right? I was advertised a lifestyle that I thought I wanted and I I followed that, right? And I was also very obsessed with natural gas trading back then. I golfed, I hung out with other traders, I went to Vegas, I chased girls, I did those things, you know, why natural gas over anything else you could be trading? I think um you know I I serendipitously was a peon on the New York Merkantile Exchange and the natural gas contract was just starting then and

15:21 I looked into it and I was like this is the this is the future new commodity not that many people into it place where you know there was legacy crude oil all traders right like and this growing efficient fuel was the wave and I was like oh this is where I want to go and I could you know in theory make a bunch of And when did your perspective on money begin to shift? There was a book called Your Money or Your Life. You probably read it that completely changed my view of money and what money is. And so if you've read the book, you know that one of the definitions they use that they they say holds up all the time is money is something you exchange your time for, right? You change your life. So there's a lot of what I what I think are dactic exercises, very painful, but you go through them and then you have a visceral understanding

16:08 of spending your time for money, right? They they ask you to count every single nickel and penny that comes into your life, then count every single hour and minute you use in order to achieve that money, right? Take the taxes out and there's your net true hourly wage. And you've done that, right? You've done that painfully for a period of time. And then after that, uh you get rid of the dollar signs and it just becomes hours. So whatever you buy is in hours or minutes of your life. And you do that for a while and you go, "Holy," you really get in touch with your values, right? See, I did that exact same thing. I must have read that book when I was 14 or 15 years old. And I started looking at every single purchase as hours of my life. But that caused me to not want anything because I would look at like a

16:53 Starbucks coffee and I'd say I have to exchange 45 minutes of my life after tax to go and buy one coffee and that coffee might last me 30 minutes. So I'm spending 45 minutes for 30 minutes. That's a bad deal. But maybe I could buy a pair of shoes for one hour of my life and I get those shoes for a year. That seems like a pretty good tradeoff for like physical things that last. I went the same way as you. I went super frugal the f when I read it. Um, and the other thing is it's not it's not about the uh it's not about the the time equation like you some of the most enjoyable things in your life will only last two minutes. I'm winking at some of the guys out there. One minute. One minute. One minute. All right. So, so, so it's it's really about it's really about the yield on fulfillment, right? Like cuz I

17:40 you know around that time I started thinking about like what is it all for, right? There were lots of uh you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a millionaire in lower Manhattan, right? And I'm busted at the time. And I was thinking like, well, I want to be rich before I'm 30, which I think a lot of people say that, right? And I think um in that statement is kind of this understanding that the ability of them to enjoy the money or convert into uh meaningful experiences declines as they age. Nobody says, "I want to be a millionaire by the time I'm 86." Now, when it comes to the Ice Coffee Hour, I just want to say that short form content has been one of our biggest drivers of growth on the Ice Coffee Hour. Like even this episode with Bill Perkins. We'll often clip up the most memorable moments and post them as shorts throughout Tik Tok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, you

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19:12 future right now to learn more and enter the contest. Again, that is opus.pro/clipip-enthe future or click the link down below in the description. Seriously guys, getting clips is extremely expensive and a very long process, but you can just use OpusClip and get them done instantly for a fraction of the cost. So, I highly recommend it. Thank you so much to OpusClip for sponsoring this episode. Nobody says I want to be a millionaire by the time I'm 86 or or 72 or 73, right? It's always before I'm 30. Forbes 30 under 30 under 40, whatever, right? Some age that's below 40. And when I was walking around lower Manhattan looking at these very wealthy traders, I was like, "Yeah, but what's an extra million going to do for them? I mean, what are they going to do? Drive a nicer car, their kids to school in a nicer car? What where's the fun in

19:58 that?" Right? because I'm a young 20some lyic system driving all my decisions. Like how are you going to get any more girls with that? You can't take any girls on a yacht when you got kids and you got to drive them to school, right? But aside from my goofy thought process, like I had something right and that was basically the uh the utility of money declines as you age to the individual. Like I'm not an institution. I'm not going to I'm not like the United States of America or Swiss bank. I'm not going to last 200 500 years, right? I got an 86-y year ride, maybe if I'm lucky, right? And unfortunately, that ride isn't at a consistent health. It's like, I'm going to reach uh physical maturity, mental maturity, and then I'm going to plateau and decline. And so, I'm like, holy, I got to get rich fast so I can really

20:44 enjoy my life. And it's like, what's the purpose of getting rich? Like, in that all those all those questions are going on, right? And so that's when I started to think like wow at a certain point the reward goes away right obviously when you die but even before that right because like you're in a nursing home and everybody's seen they've had parents etc you know or or grandparents that are like can't really convert that money into meaningful experiences right aside from survival and so I was like holy what there then there must be a curve there must be a utility and money curve and then when you start thinking about that like wait a minute if you're going to go to work and exchange hours of your life for money and then you don't convert that money into experiences right what and experiences in the broadest sense choice choices right

21:31 whether it's buying a watch or building bridges for poor people or or etc then you essentially waste your hours of your life and that's the only thing you got right and so and then to think about then there must be a derivative on this there must be a peak if I'm supposed to spend it before I die there must be a peak peak and is that peak a number? And I'm like, wait, wait, no, no, it's not a number. It doesn't matter what the number does. It doesn't matter what your net worth is. It's focused on your health and the decline rate of your health. And so your your net worth peak is not a number. It's a date, right? It has to do with your health and your age. And so that's how I came to that conclusion. Very, you know, I'm condensing it down and leaving some things out, but that's when I was like, holy, right? to be grinding out in your 70s to make more money for a party at 80 is

22:19 absurd. Yeah. Right. It's easy to point it out that way with those two numbers, but it's equally as absurd. You know what we were talking about earlier what you're doing like you know when I became very frugal my boss uh you know I saved some money on like no salary and my boss called me a idiot. I was like wait what you know and I pingponged on autopilot to the other way. began spending money crazy, which is not what you want to be doing either. That's not what I'm advocating for. What I what I'm advocating for is people to think about what are the things that they're fulfill them and and what they think those experiences they want to have on their way to the grave, whether it's in your 20s, 30s, 40s, etc. Or break them down in 5 years period. See what they are, right? And then go out and pursue those. What would you say to the people who get

23:05 more fulfillment from saving than spending? Let's assume they're my my very close friend because I'm at the end of the day I can't tell you I can't tell a addict that's bad for them. I mean I can tell them right but you know they're like you got a problem I don't have a problem right like you know what I mean like you have a problem with my you know what I mean that that that's the people with saving right but at the end of the day what I try and point out is like it's suboptimal like the point of saving yes there is some hydonic value to know you're doing the right thing etc but the purpose of delayed gratification indefinitely is no gratification and unfortunately your body has some has a vote and It's going to decay and you will not be able to get that gratification to the extent you can now.

23:51 And so the purpose of working is the reward and the reward is not the token. The token is useless. Who gives a you care about the experiences that it's going to afford you, the life it's going to afford you. Like builders don't really give a about hammers and saws except to the fact that it helps them build houses. If they didn't, they've thrown them the away. And so imagine you had a, you know, people that are just saving money to be saving money are just collecting hammers and saws to never build a building. What if they're collecting options in terms of they're collecting the ability to have the choice to do whatever they want. I think that's great. And I think there is a place for saving, but those options expire just like you will. And not only will you expire, this time period will expire. So, it's not just the one death you have. It's the many deaths you have.

24:38 The single you, the you without kids, the you with small kids, the you with kids out of the house, the you that can actually sprint, the you that will never sprint again and for the rest of your life, right? I'm just pointing out some R. There's lots of them, right? Yeah. And so in each period of your life, certain activities, choices are optimal, you know, and in certain periods they don't transfer well or they don't transfer at all. And so depending on who you are and what you want to have out of your life, when you get off autopilot, you think about what experiences I want to have in my life, then you know, you can allocate your funds correctly. You can save for the things that are, you know, you you get the spend burn ratio right. Right. But just to say I'm preserving options, like who gives a like, what option are you saving for? List them to me. Tell me

25:23 what they are. To have this nebulous thing is just fear-based thinking and just trying to justify it by saying I'm saving for options. I'm like, you're full of you just haven't really done the homework about your life. You haven't really thought about what you wanted out of life and you're hiding behind this like I have a bunch of money thing to justify the laziness of not really getting off autopilot and thinking about what experiences you want to have in each period of your life, right? Like the purpose of the money, right, is for your fulfillment, right? And part of the fulfillment is planning the activity, doing the activity, and then reliving the activity and talking about the activity. Like before we got on, we were talking about your wedding and how you thought it was great. And he was saying, "Hey, you thought you could have made it better if you l loosened up a little bit, right?" And so when you talk about your wedding and it was great, etc.,

26:09 you're getting fulfillment from that, right? Zero cost fulfillment. How did you pay for that? You pay for it earlier when you spent the money and now you're reaping the dividends. And so if you delay gratification pretty uh far enough, you don't get that many memory dividends. You get less fulfillment, less high score, and less ability to do some of those activities. Now, this might be oddly specific, but where do you draw the line for opportunity cost if you're in an area or time of your life where you're where your time, working hours are really valuable, whereas in the future, you don't think you're going to have the same ROI as you do today. Yeah, that that's like these calculations are tough and everybody's going to have to, you know, that's why these like variables come in there. But you just want the mental model like how am I thinking about this? This is okay, I'm 25. I can take uh three ski trips

26:54 when I'm 30 or one ski trip now because I'm going to give time out. Like is what is a better deal for me? Right? You might say, "Well, I'm going to be 30. I'm still physically fit, right? I don't reach uh physical maturity until 33. That's a great return and I still get many years in a memory dividend. I'm going to grind it out and have three trips later." Plus, as a young male in your 30s, the sexual power dynamics, you know, I'll be able to meet a lot more girls as a 30-year-old with my together as opposed to a 25-year-old without my together. So, you might make that decision. Um, when you're 60, you might not make that decision, saying, "Three trips at 65 versus one trip now. I don't know. My knee hurts, my back hurts. This might be my last, you know, ski trip. I

27:41 might not even be able to ski." you know, the friends that are with me that I would go that actually add to that enjoyment, they might not be around. George is 70. He might be dead. You know, whatever it is, like I'm just making up these these scenarios. So, that thought process, right? Like not kind of that that autopilot like, "Oh, I'm just going to save save." Just thinking it through. And so, I think like a 25-year-old will have a lot of arguments and probably tilt towards like, "Hey, I'm going to take three trip ski trips later." And Mr. 60, 65year-old might be no. Yeah. Speaking of death, when is that something that you started to consider? Uh when did that start creeping in that all of a sudden your life isn't just going to last forever? It was it's it was kind of early. Um but more profound, you know, uh when I started thinking about like money, its purpose books like your money or life

28:28 fulfillment and and kind of like where are you going to get the maximum enjoyment out of your life? Like where is most of your fulfillment going to come for your life? And so I thought it was like being aware of your death and that you're going to expire kind of like cuts through your ego, right? Like if if you're in a you're in a plane crash or like you were uh terminal disease, you know, you're going to die. You're going to have great health, but you're going to die in a year. Like it's going to cut through all the ego and you're going to live the life you really want to live, right? You're going to do the things. You're going to say that I love you. You're going to take the risk. You're going to do all the things because you're going to die in a year. Um, and so you know, you don't live each day as if it was your last. You live each day with death in mind in the future, right? The things you do now are actually

29:14 influenced by the day you die. It's just a little bit more remote, right? Cuz the day before you die, you would do certain things. The two days before you would die to do certain things, a month before, a year before, etc., and so on. And so how you behave, whether you save, the risks you take, the things you do are really influenced by the day you die and the deterioration rate of your body, right? It's just an integral, right, over time. And so being aware of kind of the idea of like when you're going to die, you know, getting a range of that date and your health is extremely extremely important for you to have the courage to implement, you know, this holy I'm not going to be as rich as I was last year. I need to convert them into experiences. Like I need to live the life I want. It like kind of forces

30:01 you to live and take it seriously. Like when you're on vacation and the vacation, you know, it was never going to end. You might never like when I lived in New York, I never went to the Empire State Building. I never went to all these stores unless somebody came in town because I could always do it right when I But then when I came in town, it's like, oh, they're here for a weekend. They take they they go see the things, they go to the place, they go whatever, they take full advantage of New York. Um, and so I think kind of life is that way. A lot of people think like, it's always going to be there. I'll always be able to go to Japan. I'll always be able to do X, Y, and Z. Later in life, these things are going to happen, right? and then they they let their lives pass them by. One thing that is is a bit of a taboo topic, but would you say money buys happiness? I've seen like I'd rather be crying in a Ferrari than a Civic. What do you think about that?

30:47 Yeah, I I actually think it does. Um, but you need to know how to use it. You know, you have these Chuck-E-Cheese tokens, right? And you need to know how to go to the desk and exchange them for the comb or or of the doll that Chuck-E-Cheese. And it's kind of like a a joke, but what I'm trying to say is is that going back to the hammers and saws, right? It's a tool. And so I can give you all the power tools and all the things uh to build a house. But if you don't know how to use those tools, you will not build a house. And so I can give you a ton of money, right? And if you don't know how to use that tool called money to build a life of happiness, then you won't. You'll just have a bunch of money. And so what you find is when people point out examples of like money ruined this person or

31:33 money didn't make them happy is generally they did not know how to use the tool. When do you feel like it starts tapering off in terms of satisfaction with money? Is there a point of diminishing returns? I think it's person specific money for all the things you want plus a little bit more. Right? So that depends on the things you want. And what happens is with money is that you discover a lifestyle and things that you want that you never knew. Like you don't come out of the womb knowing that you like chocolate and you hate onions and I like France and I don't like Thailand or whatever whatever the mix is, right? You go out in life and then you discover the things you like and you want, right? I remember when I never wanted to leave Jersey City. I thought it was the best place in the world and I never want to leave. Why would anybody leave Jersey City? Right? went out discovered like

32:18 what a idiot I was. Nobody needs more than $150,000 a year. Blah blah blah. Make $250,000, have zero zero left over. You're like, "Oh, what an idiot I was. I can really use $250,000." That's even being efficient and frugal like you, right? I could still spend it. Then it becomes a million, right? And so when you say the average person, it's very easy to pick a number that's like double what they have or triple what they have or 2,000 income. Then you meet somebody that's made five making $5 million years, etc., and you're like, it's not even close, right? It it's not diminishing at the same rate, you know? And I I think it's when the person is now having capital that they'll never spend and living that life, right? You

33:05 could just point it out. They don't even realize it, right? But you can just point it out. Then then we're at enough. I saw a study on CNBC that actually said that in order for people to feel rich, they need double from what they currently make. And they found that across pretty much every single income group, whether you make a 100red, you need 200. If you make 200, you need 400. 500, you need a million. That just kept going. Yeah. That they people are not finding the concept of enough, right? Like they're not in touch with what they want. And part of that, which I think is going on, is they're discovering the world, right? You don't know what it's like to be on a superyacht until you can afford to rent a superyacht. And then you're like, "Holy, I would like to be on a superyacht a lot more. You know, I need to make more money to rent superyachts, right?" And so, you know, and it's like I'm actually much happier on a superyacht than I was not on a super yacht, right? And I'm getting fulfillment out of it, etc. I didn't

33:52 know I like to travel as much as I did. I didn't know I like Japan as much as I did. I didn't know I liked X, Y, and Z. And so, I think um part of that is going on, but also people just aren't having a concept enough, right? Like they, you know, there is um that is not taught here. It's not part of the culture, the concept of enough. Yeah. I think Tai Lopez was telling us that 10 million was the point of diminishing returns where everything beyond that point you start getting a little less than what you could get going from like 0 to 10. That wasn't true for me. I thought it was like what he said was a a few million single digit million. That was that was per year income. Oh, $10 million in terms of net worth net worth. Okay. Or $2 million a year was optimal if you want to do like 99% of things that you

34:39 could do. That was enough to buy it. I went to Thailand and I saw people that were visibly like I felt were extremely happy and more fulfilled than I was at the time that I went that were at like fractions of income or like close to no. And I've seen scenarios where personally like I'm happy. I'm very grateful where I'm at. I live in I live in gratitude. I I can't believe the life I get to live. But I'm like, "Oh, I can convert more into more fulfillment and more happiness." And so, um, you know, I'm not going to cry if I go back to like sleeping on a couch, right? I'll be like, it sucks, but I'm going to have a great life and I'm going to get as much as I can out of this life, no matter where I'm at um, with the resources I have. But if I'm giving

35:24 more resources, I'll know how to use them. I agree with with travel being a massive like opening of the third eye. Like when I It's It's interesting cuz a lot of the time that we spend now, Graham, with like our friend group and stuff like that, like we're around people that for the most part have like comfortable financial lives. And then when I went to travel in like Southeast Asia and like Manila, Philippines, and stuff like that, like I saw a completely different like way different than the United States too, like like low levels of like poverty in the United States is completely different than like low levels in Southeast Asia. And for me to see that and a lot of the times it seems like they were they were pretty content with like for me that was just like it was mindblowing. Yeah. And it completely like reshaped my entire understanding of like you know

36:09 what is needed in America. Yeah. It's not it's not need like when we left the caves um we left living in a world of need. We live in a a world of want. We don't operate on a need basis. We operate on a want basis. And so a lot of the questions for us in the western world is like what do you want? What do you want your ride to look like? What do you think are the biggest mistakes that rich and poor people are making when it comes to their money? Not realizing that there whatever it is like it it's a tool for their life, for their fulfillment, right? They they're they're realizing that like if you're very poor, the first step you're trying to do is is survive, right? Like once you have survival covered, the rest is your choices. It's like what kind of ride do you want to

36:55 have, right? How do you want to live your life? And so I I think a lot of people think that money is a goal and it's not. It's just one variable out of like the three macro variables, your wealth, your health, and your time, right? To drive fulfillment, right? And so I think people get that formula backwards. And what would you say are the highest ROI ways to spend your money? Although, really quick, I just want to mention that our sponsor, Notion, has helped keep us running smoothly on the iced coffee hour. We've used it for everything from guest planning, tracking sponsors, keeping our schedule organized. It is the glue that keeps us together. And now with Notion AI, it's gotten even better. So, we were honestly just really stoked when they offered to sponsor this episode. Notion AI is allin-one AI powered by your work, and all in one place. It automatically captures meeting notes, instantly finds

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38:27 behind. And it's absolutely free to try out at notion.com/iced coffee. We also have a link down below in the description. Try it there. Thank you so much to Notion for sponsoring this episode. We were just talking about that like some of the hard in terms of fulfillment the things that I found are for me anything that I'm able to do things and experience new things with friends right like most of the time like I I I joke that uh if you go to the movie yourself you're either a critic or a psychopath that's not true right like some people like to go to movies themselves but like we are wired to connect right we have whites in our eyes we can tell if somebody's looking at us from a from a far away I think a evolutionary biologist told me that like we're one of the few animals that can do that, right? All babies dance.

39:13 You can go into a jungle that nobody's ever met this tribe, start playing a beat, and the baby will start dancing, right? And it's it's a it's a method to connect with each other, right? And so a lot of the fulfillment for me and a lot of other humans, I'm not saying that every single human is doing interesting things, learning things, having fun with other humans, right? Cuz we're wired to connect. And so games very cheap. You can make them up yourself. Or hikes or walking, right? costs nothing to pay to go into a state park and go see the wonders of a state park with people you love and love hanging out with and share that experience. Um you can tear up a piece of paper and play werewolves and

39:58 write the rolls down and play a game right there. So that's a card game for it's a board game and you could just cut up a piece of paper and Yeah. the same thing with cards, right? Like well you can't do it with cards because the card then people will know you got the six but but cards board games things like that I think those are the highest ROIs. Uh then when you get into like money, it's like boats, boating trip, buy buying the bike tour. Like when you go into a city and you're visiting friends, get the tour with your friends. Make it a goofy tour. Wear different hats. Like those are amazing, right? Those are superersizing your trip. Like one of the um best parts of like a very expensive yacht trip with friends, etc., was like going on tour and taking the bike tour with the guides, the ebike tour. It was like this was the best day ever, you know. So now that you're at the

40:44 point where I it's there's probably very few things financially that you want that you can't really afford like at that level. What are the things that you spend your money on that really give you the most amount of joy? I think I think um anything that like I think my boats so the wake surf boat. I have a wake surf boat. That's awesome. I I got addicted to wake surfing and that's got to be the highest ROI thing I've bought because you you can put 16 people on the boat. Everybody's cheering. You're having the times of your life. I I it's a memory maker in spades. Like it's memory dividends upon memory dividends and new ones coming out and people, you know, giving them that experience and teaching them how to wake surf, hanging out with my daughter's friends. It's just absurd the return on

41:30 that boat, right? People look at it and be like, "That's a expensive boat." I was like, "Do you understand how many core memories I've had uh and great times and other people's had great times and connecting times that are radioactive?" Like friends meeting friends and talking on and them learning to wake surf and then doing it on their own, etc. It it's amazing. Um, how much was the boat? My boat because I I think it was like 300,000 or something like I have a very fancy boat, right? But it's like as bad as I thought. No, it's a higher RA and like even a like in St. Thomas like I was like in St. Thomas was like, "Oh, do I want to get a boat?" And I was like, "Let me get a dinghy to see how like I got a dinghy." He said, "Cruise around." And we just call them dingy dinghy days all around the islands like go to the ocean and the BVI and a dinghy or whatever. And I was like, "This is amazing." And then I bought, you know, you know, you

42:17 it's one man's trash is another one's treasure. Like the boat I have that people's like, "Oh, you got a nice really nice boat." It was their tender. So I bought this Yeah. I bought this as that was like uh another guy's tender, right? It's my boat. They're like, "That's a great boat." You know what I mean? It was his tender and he's like getting a new one and I have like the most memor amazing time. You know, friends go down. I'm like, "Take my boat out. Have a great time." So, for me, th that has been, you know, an amazing amazing memory maker, amazing fulfilling times, uh, one of the best investments that that I can make that like cost money, right? But there other things like taking a hike with friends that cost no money. that are very fulfilling, that are really amazing times as well.

43:03 So, if you're giving people a blueprint, where do they start? If there's like five steps that they need to do to reach this point where they truly optimize their money, first I I think the first step is like figure out the day you think you're going to die. There's actuarial tables, you can go see your doctors, etc., and your health, right? Like that is like number one, right? Like when you're going to die. And then the second thing is like whatever periods you want to break them down, five years, 10 years, etc. Break them down and write as much as you can the type of life you want to have spiritually, physically, uh, activities wise, etc. Um, what you want in those buckets, right? Like you want to have a kid, you want to see your kid go to kindergarten, you want to graduate

43:49 school, you want to go to Japan, you want to learn whatever, right? Put put those in each period. The further you go out, it gets harder and harder, right? because it's hard to know what you want. You're going to discover, right? So, you have to leave some for discovery, right? I'm going to try this things. I'm going to turn try and learn French, whatever, right? And then when you discover, it's like, holy, your life can go in these past. So, you have to you have to constantly update this this thing. But that is the first first first first step, right? Is what do I want out of this ride before before we spend a nickel, before we even think about the money, what do I want out of this ride? Because you might write like on one extreme it's like all I want to do is take walks in the park visit with grandma and play chess. I'm like, "Well, quit your job. That miserable job you hate. Let's get this other job. This is

44:36 the amount of money you need." Right? Like, this is the whole your money or your life. The fire, financial independence, retire early. Like, what do I really want out of life? Once you know that, right? We can start talking about spending, saving, grinding, not grinding, etc. Right? What does the arc of your life look like? You know, are you the type of person that's like, "I just want to garden, hang out, play chess and checkers with my friends." Are you like I want to travel the world and and and be on yachts etc. Is that is that fulfilling for you? You know so I think knowing who you are and what you want out of life is kind of the first step. And then after that how do you get over the fear of spending down your money. What helps me every day when I wake up and I go into my closet there's a clock that tells me the percent of of of of

45:21 life I've had left. Um you can look it up online. uh there's this guy that makes these clocks and you put in your birthday and it you know it'll say like 50 70% 69% whatever wherever I'm at right and I also have your life in weeks calendar like and you mark off each week right and I think that that uh awareness of your demise and um helps you get over fears right you get really bold when you know you're going to die yeah that's one of those weird panics I get every now and then is I just think to self. Usually people believe that like your 50s is middle age, but when you look at the average life expectancy is like 78. It really occurs before the age of 40. Correct. And like really 39 is kind of

46:08 like middle age. And then I have this ex existential panic. Like 2:00 in the morning, I'll wake up and be like, "Wait a second. In a few years, is it half over?" And I freak out. I'm like, "Wait a second. That can't be half over." Well, don't freak out. I mean like just take it seriously. Just realize like, wow, I have this, you know, you're young. You have a body that can trans. You have this bio suit that responds to your wants. If you want to run, it'll let you run more. You want to lift heavy things, it'll give you muscles to lift heavy more things, right? Like it will do what you want to do, right? But eventually, and also it's like it will say, I will last longer in the state for you too, right? I will carry you further because you are doing things, right? And so you're you're in a great great great

46:54 spot, right? Like you got like what most Americans don't have down, the ability to optimize and get more out of every single dollar you have, right? And you're in touch with things that you value, you don't value. You're like, I don't value that Starbucks coffee, right? A lot of people are on autopilot the other way, right? That's why I've sold more books in Japan than I have in the US, right? I've sold over 500,000 books in Japan and like aund 200,000 books in in here, right? And it it's been out in Japan for far less time than it has been here, right? Because the Japanese are notorious savers, right? Like they don't have the like we're broke problem. And and you know, this book isn't just for the rich people. It's really about how do you allocate your life resources? If you have zero money, you still have a

47:40 decision on whether or not you goofing off and playing cards with your friends or you go visa and hang out with grandma before she dies. Right. It's a it's a it's a book about choices. How long did it take you to write the book Die with Zero? You could say a lifetime because the ideas didn't come like, oh, I got it overnight, right? There were like events that happened in my life and I wrestled with this idea for for a long time but it took like 18 months I think from like okay I'm going to write this book to getting an outline to you know working with a writer going through it writing chapters tearing them out giving it to a friend him reading it giving feedback I'm like you're right that doesn't make sense this is too confusing going back and trying to get a book that speaks to the most people right I wanted something

48:26 to save my life right and I've said this before and people like, "What the do you mean save your life?" And I'm like, "Well, listen. If he got hit by a bus, right, or whatever, and I went in and did the cardio and then mouth to mouth or whatever, all the things. He came to life like, "Oh, you saved my life." You know what's true? You know what's the most true thing about that? He's still going to die. He's 100% going to die. He's just not going to die that day, right? And so, what does he get when he doesn't die that day? Well, he gets more I love yous, more walks in the parks, more trips to Japan, more all the things he wants out of life, right? All the fulfillment that he wants out of life. He gets more to do that before his final destination. Okay? So, when I write a

49:11 book that teach you about optimizing your life and having more fulfillment as opposed to wasting it away, right? I'm saving your life. I'm saving a piece of your life. I'm giving you more. The same as this in the case where I I did that for him. And so I thought about that for me and I was like I you're afraid of running out of money. I'm afraid of wasting my life. That is my number one fear is wasting this ride. How often do you not follow the rules of your book? Often. Often because autopilot I think is a default mode of humans, right? I think we become good at things in different areas and they become automatic just like driving, right? Like when you first learn how to drive it was like chaos, right? It was like I got a signal and you thought hit the signal button, check the mirror, you know, it's very like h right and park and whatever

49:59 and now you're driving home, you listen on the phone, you you you don't even know how you got to where you were, right? It just becomes automatic, right? Even your job like editing a video, putting the thumbnails, right? Like at first it was hard and do I put here and then you're like cut snip snip snip whatever, right? And there's some creativity and changes, right? Anybody who does sales or etc. their job becomes easy to them becomes a routine. all all their all their activities become routine and that helps you survive right you don't walk up to a door like I say in the book and go is this a door you know round thing seems like a door you're just like door open door go right memory of a dividend right there and autopilot serving you well but that doesn't help you thrive right and so I need to be

50:46 reminded by my wife by what I wrote um just really to get off autopilot and think about my decisions so that I have the most fulfilling life possible so that when I'm back on autopilot I set up the processes and systems that I have a very fulfilling ride. What's your advice to people with a low income? I mean for everybody it's the health aspect of it. Like there's no bigger single determinant in on your fulfillment than is your health, right? And those choices to be healthy, right? And you you can be healthy with low money or no money, right? You can hike, you can walk, you can avoid eating, right? Um but it it's really to think about your life the same thing to think about what choices can you make and what

51:33 will be more fulfilling for you, right? It's that mindset, right? is uh you know should I spend time with my daughter reading books with my daughter or hanging out with my friends or should I be going to grandmother's house like what is going to give me the most fulfilling ride right it's not a rich person's books it's a living's person's book right this is book is about living right like you know there's lots of quotes about like most pe most people most people die in their 30s and and are buried in their 70s you know what I mean right like you just don't want to be that. And and when you travel the world, you're like, "Holy, these these poor people are living here, right? They're having a great time. They're doing things. They're they're they're happy.

52:18 Uh they're having a fulfilling life, right? They're they're they're living life. And a lot of people are are rich on autopilot, saving, saving, saving, saving for another day, for another life that they're not going to have." How often do you try new experiences to see if you enjoy them? Often. I try and just like whats, you know? I I'm very much in around to find out mode. That's kind of like my my life. Like one of the best experiences I had or I discovered is like riding a train and like there's these trains that go on tours and I was like, why don't I go on a fancy ass train? You got to wear a suit or whatever to go in the dining car or just, you know, somewhat formal. And I was like, okay. Reluctantly went on this Orient Express for 3 days and turned out I loved it and discovered this whole world of riding trains across Canada. There's one my friends were on

53:05 in Peru. I did one in Japan was like one of the best trips of our lives. And so I realized that it'd be a world if I knew at all and that I don't know at all. And one of the things I don't know is what I like. Yeah. What would you say are the biggest waste of money that you've personally spent on or things that you spent money on expecting fulfillment, but it ended up just being nothing? Oh, cars. Like like I I I thought like when I first got rich, I was like, "Oh, yeah. I I chopped up a Lamborghini. I had a McLaren and I kept like buying these cars thinking like I'm going to like the car and I just felt like a douche driving around in the car. I didn't like it. They were loaded ground. They couldn't handle potholes. I'm in Houston and I was just like I hate this. I really hate it. I don't like it. I feel awkward in it. Uh and it's just not me right now. Now somebody else might

53:52 get value out of it, but I was just like I didn't know how to be rich for me. I knew how to be rich for what was advertised on TV, right? I was an idiot on autopilot. It's a different kind of autopilot, right? Like I was the super save everything blah blah blah guy autopilot. And I was the idiot spending money on goofy autopilot that and and the only reason why it was goofy is because it wasn't me. I didn't sit down, get in touch with myself, understand like what do I really enjoy? What do I really like? What is really fulfill? What is the car really for? So what car do you drive now? Uh I I usually Uber or something, but I have a Toyota Sequoia. The funny thing is I did buy a Ferrari Spider that I never drive just because it's such a beautiful piece of machinery

54:38 and you can get enjoyment out of like looking at it and stuff. I do. I just don't drive it as much. It's It's like you know what I mean? It's It's like It's just to me it's just weird. It's just weird. I mean like if I was a race car guy or whatever, I would just drive it all the time. Like this is what I do. I drive I drive I drive fast cars, but I don't even like driving. I hate driving. What would you say are your biggest financial failures? I guess uh I tried to do this big large infrastructure project in El Salvador and California and took like a x years permitting this thing. Won a contract and then they voided the contract and the whole thing was rigged and I couldn't do it right. I learned a lot on it but vaporized a ton of money. And then movies I did movies. You did movies. Um but the movies wasn't financially that

55:23 wasn't a disaster. The Bond part like back in movies that was like the biggest Could you explain the difference? I'm not familiar. So there's there's financing of movies, right? And there's there's all the structures, right? There's the equity, there's the debt, and there's a senior debt, right? And I took on uh significant position in a firm that did like the debt, right? Thinking it was safe, wiped out. But you produced movies. You funded the production. I did it. I was on the set. I grinded it. I've edited written written sides. I've done the whole thing. Like big movies. That one would be I don't know. Bad movies, but big movies and bad movies. I mean, I don't know. Have you ever heard a movie called Unthinkable? I'm not a big movie fan. Baytown Outlaws, Cat Run, Dark Under the Stars. I don't know, eight, nine movies I've done. And where do you think you went wrong on

56:09 those investments? Well, the movies weren't like wrong on the investment like you know into a movie knowing you're not going to make

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