The Psychology of Your 20s with Jemma Sbeg | Dear Chelsea

0:00 [Music] [Applause] [Music] Hi Gemma. It's so nice to meet you. >> Yeah, lovely to meet you both as well. >> From America to Australia. Doug is coming in to say hello. Doug, say hello. Say hello, Doug. Doug, you have to look the other way. I love every time we feed him, he comes over to thank me. >> That's He comes over to say thank Oh, no. Actually, I think he wants food anyway. Hi Gemma. So Gemma is a very is a hosts a podcast that is called the psychology of your 20s and you talk about you have a lot of interesting subject matters and chats about what it is like to be in your 20s today. And first I want to ask you what you think

0:46 is the difference between being in your 20s today versus previous periods of times. >> That's like the million-dollar question, right? I feel like if I could answer that in one word, it would be there is more. more more technology, more opportunities, which is amazing, but then also more competition, more of a choice overload, more pressing threats from the economy, from the climate. I think that there are ups and downs, right? There is it's kind of giving with one hand, taking with the other. As a generation, you know, we have a lot more freedom. we have more options in terms of who we date, how we express ourselves, what we want to do for work, but that can also come with a lot of

1:31 downsides and a lot of additional stresses that maybe previous generations didn't have to deal with. >> It always comes back to social media for me, right? Because that's pretty much the real the real biggest the biggest difference in our society is that everyone knows what everyone else is doing and when they're not invited, which I think when you're in your 20s, you still care about that stuff. I mean, I think there's a lot of people in their 50s that still care about that stuff. So, one of the things that you talked about recently in one of your episodes was about the ability to handle being disliked or the just ability to be disliked. So, what did you learn from talking about that? >> So much. It's kind of scary what you just said that you still care about that at 50 sometimes cuz I was hoping that I would age out of that conundrum.

2:17 >> I think I think many people do and then some people don't. It's just like anything else, you know, like I I mean I've meet I've I've met I remember growing up and having my friend's parents be so invested in my friend's life. Like I remember her mom I had two friends and their moms were just so interested in everything and wanted to orchestrate everything and be involved in every party and wanted to know everyone who had a crush on every and I was like these women are reliving out they're living out their fantasies vicariously through their own children. Like how pathetic. But then, you know, you get to be that age. I mean, I don't have that problem because I don't have children. So, I'm not like trying to live vicariously through them. But I've definitely seen some of my friends be very be trying to live out their

3:03 fantasies through their children. Yeah, for sure. So, that's like, you know, that's a different beast. M I think it all comes back to like this very human, very instinctual urge to just be accepted and to belong and to feel like you matter. Like one of my favorite quotes or ideas is that the only thing that anyone wants is for someone else to bear witness to their life. And that doesn't have to be a romantic partner. It could be friends. It could be your colleagues. Anyone around you. You want to feel like if you were gone, people would care. And so that fear of missing out and that fear of being disliked, I think comes back to that very primal need. You know, any of those instances where you weren't invited to the party,

3:49 you know, you weren't invited to your friend's wedding even though you thought you were really, really close. Those are all instances where you're like, "Okay, maybe my perception of my social circle wasn't accurate." And that's really scary because that could mean that come the end of my life, come tomorrow, I could be a lonely person. Especially as like in your 20s, I think I've noticed this the further along I've gotten into my 20s, you're not quite sure yet how to like ride the wave. Like your first big friendship breakup is like huge and like lifealtering because you've never experienced it before. that you know my mom such a wise woman. She was like by the time you get to like my age >> like you've had that happen and you know that you're going to survive maybe like in your 20s you just don't have that experience yet. I don't know if that's

4:35 something that that you you found. >> Absolutely. I mean, and the more you experience anything, the more used to you it you get. You know, it's just like going to prison and getting anally penetrated every single day. And but that didn't happen before you were in prison and you're like, "Oh my god." And then all of a sudden, a few months go by and it's 5:00 p.m. and you're like, "Okay, my boyfriend's coming over and that's what's going to happen in my life." So, I mean, unfortunately, the human condition, what is amazing about the human condition is we can almost acclimate to anything. I think it's really all about a sense of self and it's about how much inner work you're willing to do between the ages of 20 and 50 to get to a place where you are so confident and secure in who you are that you aren't really swayable or or as vulnerable to outside sources as you are

5:22 to your own self-esteem. You know, like how you feel about yourself is more important than how others feel about you and how you feel about yourself is more important than getting invited to a something. But I know that's that's more of a, you know, kind of philosophically spiritual way to look at things when you actually have enough experience or >> and we've kind of talked about this before where it's like that doesn't necessarily just happen because you get older. It is also something you have to put effort into and work to grow toward. >> Yeah. Because we can get upset about really small [ __ ] right? Like you can get upset about the dumbest [ __ ] and you can also choose to not get upset about anything. You could get delayed and your flight could you'd be at an airport for five hours waiting for a plane and be in a perfectly happy mood and read a book

6:07 and occupy yourself, watch a fun show, whatever. Or you could be a [ __ ] [ __ ] about it and be sitting there screaming and pissing and moaning. You know what I mean? I totally I guess you think sometimes you you would outgrow that behavior but it's also it's also your personality >> and what you're willing like I used to have a very rageful crazy reactive personality. Now I go I you know if things aren't going well or if I'm upset I go within. I don't act out. I take my business upstairs and deal with it myself like a big girl. You know I wish I had those tools when I was younger but I don't think that's every 20-year-old. I mean, some 20-year-olds are pretty mature, and I'm sure you know because you're doing this podcast, so you talk to a lot more people in their 20s. >> Oh, 100%. And also, like, we all have

6:55 our we all have our heart. We all have our thing. So, I'm going to like fully call myself out. I really have never had a problem with people not liking me. Like, that's a big one for me. And I see it as such a a blessing. Also, you kind of have to have that attitude if you're going to do what we do, right? like having a somewhat public face, having people know what you're doing. I've just never had a problem with it organically. But when it comes to other parts of my life, I really really suffer. Uh when it comes to like uh anxiety over the future, overthinking my future, that's something I wish I could turn off. And then there's other people who will be like, "Oh, you know, I am paralyzed by this idea of people not liking me or whatever it is, but I have like no worries that I'm going to figure it all

7:40 out. Like I don't worry about the future. Like what are you talking about? You know, I don't think about like really big questions around like where I'm going to turn up, what's going to happen, am I going to be okay? I don't worry about money. So I do also think that it's personality and then it's just like whatever your brain I think the insecurity like whatever your big insecurity is is what it latches on to. So maybe like anger is like oh am I worried that I'm not going to be in control? And so I have this like very vibrant emotional reaction because it feels like the biggest thing I could do to bring anything back into my control or any number of things like that where it's like it all links back to personality but also insecurity and individual differences about what is your hard and what is your kind of journey through that as well. You're

8:27 saying hard like heart like your like a your organ >> like your hard like a big hard rock like what is your hard Australian accent. >> I didn't know if it was the accent or if I was like okay is she saying hard? Okay. We don't use it that way. So that's good to know. I'm glad you explained that. You talk about like uh you talk about friendship breaking up breaking up friendships which is a good subject matter because that happens in at any phase in life to people and I guess the first time it is the worst time right it's kind of like >> it can be very hard to recover from that so what have you did that happen to you >> I was just going to say yeah and it's happened to me a few times and I will say there did come a point where it happened like maybe three times in a year and I had to be I'm the problem.

9:13 Like this is not a this is a me thing. It it was especially like this very pivotal point in my life when I was leaving university college and I basically had this huge falling out with my roommates with this person who had been my best friend throughout my college university days. Like best friends. We thought we were going to be each other's bridesmaids. She was going to be the auntie to my children. And I think the reason it it was a breakup, but it felt more like a fizzle. It felt like we'd fallen out of love with each other. That there were these things that had always bothered us about each other. Almost like a relationship that we just kind of swept under the rug because we were friends when maybe if that was in a romantic relationship, it would have ended decimated the the relationship

9:59 sooner. But because it was a friendship, everything was a little bit less like just a tiny bit less intense. And it was this fizzle and then it was this huge break where I just never heard from her again. Never heard from her again almost overnight and never really knew why. And you have to kind of go back and examine your behavior. And recently I actually saw her. She lives in Sydney now, which is where I live. And it was actually quite a beautiful moment. I was at Do you guys have sushi train? >> We don't have it, but I know what it is. Yes. Well, explain what it is. Well, basically I'm pitching anyone who's listening the best speak franchise idea for America, which is basically a tiny train. Like you sit at like a counter and this train carrying all types of sushi like comes around and you can like

10:44 pick what you want. >> We have We just don't call it sushi train right? >> Sounds wonderful though. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We know what you're talking about. Yeah, that is wonderful. >> It's vital for the story. Um, so I'm sitting at one of these and it's kind of like onto the street like where I'm sitting you can kind of see out these glass doors and across the road I see her and her obviously her new boyfriend and we haven't seen each other in probably 2 to 3 years at this point and they're standing at the lights and she's like looking at him and she just looks so happy, so happy. And I had this huge inclination to like go out and run to her and be like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Like, I miss you, Yak. I know it's been a long time. And I just kind of left it. I was like, she everything's worked out for her. She's

11:31 got this beautiful boyfriend. She's in this beautiful city on this, you know, the main street. Like, she's probably going to get dinner. And I think it's also those moments where you realize how, like with most breakups, you mature from it. You get something from it, even when it's really, really painful. And that was just like a beautiful full circle moment for me. >> That's nice. >> At the sushi train. >> Yeah. at the sushi train. I do I love what you say about like you needed to examine your behavior in that moment because there have been a few relationships that fizzled like that and I wonder you know there are certain times when like yes I'm the problem and other times when you just find yourself like outgrowing a friend group or out growing a friendship and what would you say are like the ways that someone can tell like am I the problem? Am I the [ __ ] here or like maybe you just outgrew these folks?

12:17 >> That's a really really great question. I think the best way to tell is, is your life changing? Is there something about your life right now that is causing a transformation or an evolution? Or do you feel like you're the same that you've always been? Maybe that's actually why your friendships are also fizzling because you're stagnant, you're unhappy, like you're kind of taking things for granted. The other way I think it's really easy to tell if it is you that's the problem is the level of like conflict. Now, I'm going to say this. For women, conflict does not look the same in their friendships as it does for men. And I was talking to my partner about this about this like kind of fight that two of my friends are having at the moment. A very like it was very intricate. And he was like, "How do you

13:03 even how did you even know that they were fighting in the first place?" Like when you were in this room with them when you were having dinner. And I was like, "It's the it's the pauses. It's the silences. Like you've got to remember conflict isn't an allout fight. It's are they avoiding you? Like, are these people perhaps excluding you not because they don't like you anymore, but because maybe you're just bringing a really negative bad vibe or because you've done something that's offended someone that you haven't owned up to. Those are some of the more subtle signs I think that there's conflict to miss. >> Yeah. I feel like most men just like can't pick up on those subtle things like just those like pick up on nuances at all. For sure. >> Yeah. But and I think I I think another topic that people are obsessed with and it doesn't I guess it starts in your 20s but I it probably starts earlier than

13:49 that is falling in love. And I know you've talked about this on your podcast finding love and the idea that they may not find it or which I find to be just a silly silly notion because I I I've never met anybody that's never been in love, you know, unless they're eight. >> So I I I find that most people do find love. Do you feel like it's different? H it's a really great question and honestly I wish that you could come on my show and tell people that because I want Perfect like I think they just don't believe it coming from me because I'm not people writing in all the time about people are constantly asking us this that on our podcast but I I just always also like I just feel like it's one of those facts of life like it's going to happen and the longing and the

14:36 pressing and pushing for things. It's like it's one thing to have an intention for something, but to be actively constantly pursuing it almost defeats the intention of what you want. You know what I mean? If you spend so much time almost it's almost like it becomes like you're begging for something and things happen in a natural way and like you have to kind of accept that that's one of the natural things that happen in life and that it will happen like it is very likely to happen more likely than unlikely. Here's the thing, though. I think with everything else in our life, right, we're told to be really like go for it, really um proactive, and to have like a 5-year plan, to have all these other things. Like, if you want something, if you want the promotion, work for it. If you want the dream house, save for it. And then when it

15:22 comes to love, you're right, you can't like you can put yourself out there, but there's nothing that you can really control sometimes. That's where I think the fear of never finding anyone comes from is that it's unpredictable. There's not like a there's no structure for finding your soulmate the way that there's a kind of a structure for finding all the other things that you really want in life. And um I gave this analogy to someone the other day which is like you remember when you were in high school and you you just like couldn't wait to graduate and you thought about it like all the time and you were like oh my god I just wish that I could be done with this and you know it's going to happen right but there is still this like longing that is filled with time and it's like within that time

16:08 where you want to make plans, you want to do fun things that you just want this final closure of like I'm going to graduate. I'm going to find the love of my life before the rest of your life kind of starts. Does that make sense? >> It does, but it's just so backwards when I hear that. It's like before the your life starts. Like, you know, I remember thinking that when I moved out to LA, I was like, when my life begins, my life will begin when I have a career. That's when my life begins. And all those years leading up to getting the career are part of my life, too. But for some reason, at that time, they didn't feel like it. It was like when when I become successful, that's when everything starts. That's when it begins. And I now realize how silly of a mindset that is because yes, I was driven, but I also missed out on a lot of like being

16:55 present and enjoying the time and the ride and the climb and all of those things. It was always a means to an end. It was always a temporary part of my life. And I'm not sure if that attitude got me to where to to to to become successful or if I could have or if there was more to be taken out of like more of a bite to be taken out of life at that moment. You know, I think when we have our minds so focused on our goals, it can we can sometimes like miss the forest for the trees, you know, like >> it's too much focus sometimes. You have to like it's one thing to have an intention and to know this is what I want to do with my life and take steps to get there, but it doesn't have to be every facet of your being. Just like finding a love doesn't have to require

17:42 like all of your effort. It can happen in a natural easygoing way when you have a natural easygoing attitude about things which I don't think you get when you're in your 20s. I think that takes time to build. It does feel like one of the defining feelings of being in your 20s is that feeling of like, well, my life hasn't started yet or I'm falling behind and like, am I doing enough and I'm not where I thought I would be by now. It's almost overwhelming. We get a lot of emails about that as well. >> Oh my goodness. I mean, I feel that way as well all the time. And and it's exactly the same. It's like the predominant feeling. I want to say something though based on what you were saying, Chelsea, and it's the story of how I met my partner because I totally believe in your philosophy. I went on

18:29 like a full dating detox. Like didn't date for a long time, was just like I just I'm not going to leave space for it. And then I think it was like 6 months to a year later, I was in like Bali with all my friends and they had all come out of these like terrible breakups and they they just wanted to, you know, have sex. They just wanted to get laid. like they just wanted to have the fun holiday experience. And I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to get on on that." And I redownloaded the apps. The first person I matched with, hit it off with it just happened. And we've been together for 2 years now. >> I love that. >> Almost longer. And I think it's that like just let it just let it be. But actually what your point was is in your 20s, it's kind of like but when is the like when is the letting it be starting?

19:15 Like when is the the chill time starting? Like, can I do that now or is that going to like take away from the planning time later? Is that going to take away from like the fun successful times in my 30s if I like take a time if I take time off? If I take a break, if I'm not doing everything the way that everyone else is. The thing I always say though is like what's this finish line we're racing towards? >> Well, right cuz it's like your life is if you're if your life doesn't begin until you're what, 30? Like if you're in your 20s preparing for your life to begin, when does it begin? 25 30 and then when and then what happens when you're 40 50 you're dead like what what is the cycle of a like the thought of a 20-year-old cuz I know when I was 20 I never thought beyond five years like you know what I mean it wasn't I I'm sorry I

20:01 never thought beyond five months you know I thought about the the future but the future was way beyond five months and the immediate future was you know the real like day in day out of everything so I I I don't know I wonder if more like younger people were were able to kind of not be so I mean I don't want because it's I don't want it to confuse it with the word lazy. I don't mean being lazy. I mean being very clear about what you want in life and knowing it but without being crazy aggressive about it. I guess what I'm saying and I think a lot of people would probably disagree with that because a lot of people would say you have to be crazy aggressive to get what you want. >> Oh I don't agree at all. I think that like having passion and genuine love for

20:47 what you're doing is more important than discipline because you actually fall in love with the process. I also think the biggest thing that has sued that anxiety that you were explaining around like thinking way too far in advance, thinking that life ends at 30 or 40 was having age gap friendships, being friends with women and men who are a lot older than me. And I have this amazing friend called Emma who I do pottery with and she's in her 50s. She has two kids who are almost my age. The amount of just solid advice that she gives me and just perspective of being like, "What are you talking about? My 50s are like the best years of my life. I'm having more fun than I've ever had. I'm more relaxed than I've ever had." It just

21:33 soothes so much of my anxiety that I think and I'm saying this and it's going to like almost I'm going to stab myself in the back. Like sometimes another 20some year old can't tell you that because they don't have the experience at that time. Does that make sense? Like yeah, it's really important. >> I mean I think I guess it goes back to what you were saying at the at the beginning which is everybody wants to be seen. Everybody wants to be you know valued and everyone wants to matter because if you if you don't matter then you feel invisible. And so that's that's very common and I think that starts early, you know, that starts like when you're a teenager because that's that's when that because when you're a kid and you have your parents and if you if you have an ideal childhood, you you're getting all this love and attention, you don't have time to think about anything

22:18 else. But if you if you have a single parent or you don't have two parents or you're not brought up in a loving home, then your circumstances could be different. you know, earlier on you could start to feel alone or I think the the feeling people jump to is to is you're it's more of a survival, right? It's survivalism. You have to survive whatever circumstances you're in. And >> and I I think in your 20s, the idea of survival becomes a little bit more abstract. You know what I mean? It's not real survival. It's like social survival, love survival. You want to you're you think everything is the most intense it could act, you know, ever be and everything is so much more important than it is. Even though certain things are [ __ ] important, it's like kind of

23:04 the over the over accent of importance on everything. I think that's what I definitely don't miss from my 20s is thinking like the end all be all like there's one love of my life. there's going to be one love and he's going to understand me and he's going to be my soulmate, you know, which is a pile of garbage. There isn't Who wants one lover anyway? >> A bunch of soulmates. >> Yeah, exactly. Like my sister's my soulmate and um you know the one I'm talking about and um yeah, I think there's just a lot of I I I would hate to be 20 years old today. And I don't want to say that because I'm sure 20-year-olds are are fine, but I when I think back to my 20-year-olds, I'm just like, "Oh my god, there was there was nothing in like the [ __ ] that you guys have to deal with." >> Gemma, are the 20-year-olds fine?

23:50 >> No. No. The amount of like the anxiety levels are just like through the freaking roof. >> I mean, I don't even think I understood what anxiety was until like a few years ago. Same. And yeah and because I it would you know the overexlanation of it in society now almost everyone has anxiety which is causing me anxiety you know so >> and you've got to think about why that is right like I always get these comments from people who are a lot older being like what do you have to worry about like you don't have kids you don't have you know a mortgage you don't have any of these things and I'm like look at the environment that we're living in look at the context how could you not be an anxious wreck right Like nothing about our environment is stable. >> Yeah. >> We're so overstimulated. Everything is

24:37 constantly changing. Read any newspaper. It's horrific. Like how as a generation that's like now responsible for that future, guys, we're getting very deep here. But you know, you feel responsible for that future. You are the future. How are you meant to feel sane knowing that everyone thinks it's going to [ __ ] >> Right? Like I don't know. I just feel like it's uh that's a common reason for the anxiety levels and then you have to worry about like what your dream job is. Like what what like >> right well on that note, should we talk to some people with anxiety? >> Yeah, definitely. Okay, we're going to take a break and we'll be right back with Gemma. And we're back with Gemma. Okay, what do we got? >> We are back. Well, we're going to start with a couple of callers today. Our

25:23 first caller is Michelle. And Michelle says, "Dear Chelsea, I'm 25 years old and over the past 2 years, I've questioned my sexuality and recently accepted that I'm gay. I haven't told many people and I'm not sure when I will fully come out. I live in a small town. It's a cute mountain town where I can do all the things I love like trail running, climbing, and skiing. I've met some great people and have formed some really meaningful relationships. I have also been given a huge career opportunity here. I was recently asked to be a partner in a business that I really believe in and care about. However, since coming to terms with my sexuality, I have struggled with the idea of staying in my small town. I don't have many friends in the queer community here, and I've recently realized how important it is to have that. I can't help but think I might be happier living somewhere bigger and more

26:08 diverse. However, the work opportunity is keeping me here, at least for the time being. We've discussed opening locations in other cities, but I just don't know how well that would go over with my boss. I just don't know if I can stay here long term. Is it crazy to want to try something that I don't even know would be worth it? Should I risk the opportunity that I have now? Any advice is so appreciated, Michelle. Hi, Michelle. >> Hi. >> Hi. How old are you? >> I'm 25. >> Oh, perfect. This is the perfect age range. >> This is literally right up my alley. >> Yeah. >> Do you mind telling what what mountain town do you live in or is that too Are we going to >> Um, I live in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. >> Oh my god, I knew you were going to say that. I >> That's crazy. I was as soon as you said mountain town, I was like, "Oh, she's from Jackson Hole." Okay. Anyway,

26:56 >> I'm not I'm not from there, but that's that's where Yeah, that's where I live. >> I understand that you live in a small mountain town, but I feel like you're Do you have any information that leads you to believe that your co-workers or your boss is going to have an issue with you being gay? >> No, no, no, no, >> no. So, >> that's that's not the problem. >> What is the problem? You think you're not going to find enough community in there? >> Right. Right. I see. >> I feel like you have a a great job opportunity that already sounds like it could bleed into like going to a different city and opening up different franchises or whatever the business, you know, different outposts in different cities. I wouldn't want you to project what you think is going to be the result of your sexuality before you find that

27:43 out. Do you know what I'm saying? Like >> have you really given yourself a chance to be out and about in Jackson Hole in your job in your community? >> No. >> Right. >> That's a good point actually. Yeah. >> I guess my issue is also I have a gay brother which is just a coincidence. But um I think that I see his community and then I see communities like in bigger cities about like all of these other people that have friends in the queer community and Jackson Hole is just so small that it is so accepting and that's not the issue. Like acceptance would be fine. The issue would be like just having that community there as opposed to like living in a bigger city and having a community. I guess >> I just think that you're you're 25 years old. You're you have we were just

28:29 talking about this. You have your whole life ahead of you. Even though I'm sure you feel like you're already halfway in the grave because 25-year-olds think they're [ __ ] old. But you have your like this is you have a great job opportunity. I would combine the two things and see how it works out in Jackson Hole with the intention of moving to a bigger city down the road. Like you don't have to do that this year. You could wait a year. You could maybe wait two years, but you don't have to spend the rest of your life in Jackson Hole. You can stay in this town, develop your job. like see where that takes you and maybe that will be the vehicle that takes you to another city, you know, if you give yourself some time to just like chill out and feel the vibe out. You don't know, you could fall in love with somebody in Jackson Hole. >> I'm just going to say I do really appreciate though the being young in the

29:15 queer community, right? And it feels like that's where it really is like when you're like in your 20s and you're young and queer and like in New York, in New Orleans, like in one of those like vibrant places. I do think that sometimes it's like life is sometimes a series of waiting rooms and you're probably in this waiting room right now where you're like can I have it all. It's like yes, you can just not all at the same time. So you could be in one of those huge cities and being like I'm so accepted. I'm loved. I've got all these friends and we're going to like chapel ran gigs like super fun. Um and then be like but my job sucks. So, I think like right now it's like you're really coming upon like this major problem and conundrum which is like how come everything in my life isn't perfect at the same time? Like how come I couldn't

30:02 have both? So, I really think that you kind of have to like flip the dice here. What's more important to you right now knowing that you might not be able to have both? Is it having the community that is brought by like being like gay and like open in like a bigger place or is it having the career that then you could build that community on in the future? It's kind of up to you to choose. >> Yeah. And I think just like it being so new right now or new to like me accepting it, >> that feels like the like the bigger part is that like it feels crazy to be in a big city where like I could just be open and free and like I don't know everyone at the store when I go to the grocery store every week. >> Yeah. >> Like that feels like a crazy feeling. So I think that's like the desirable thing right now, but if I were to wait a little while, I think it would be less

30:47 exciting. I would also encourage you to get involved in, you know, some little community that's in your town because there might be folks that you don't know are gay or just aren't really out or maybe they are out and you just didn't know. But also like maybe there's some travel opportunities here too. Maybe there's like going to Pride in New York City or a smaller town if that's like more your vibe. There are events all over the place all of the time. Um, so maybe this is like getting one friend in your community who maybe you can travel with and do that sort of thing. Um, but I also think like just as you begin to come out to more people, you'll start to build that community even though it's a small town. >> Yeah, I think that's true. >> Is there the potential, did you say, with this job, there's the potential, you said, of possibly opening up different branches or what was that part?

31:32 >> Yeah, we've talked a lot about opening different locations. Actually, um, I am also in grad school and having a really hard time finding nurse practitioner clinicals. So, we've talked about just like me moving somewhere for the eight months that I have to do my clinicals to open up another branch. So, that's also an option. >> Oh, well, there you go. Great. That's killing two birds with one stone or killing No. or killing one bird with two stones. I'm not really sure. >> It's also I guess like also hard like little things like Jackson Hole housing is horrible. So, like leaving is kind of scary because then you don't know if you're going to get housing when you come back. It's just all But yeah, I definitely have the opportunity and I'm definitely not complaining. I live in like the most beautiful place ever. So >> yeah, but you're in grad school, you've

32:18 got a gig, you've got a job, like you're you you know what you're you know, you're comfortable with your new found sexuality. Like all of these things are awesome to know about yourself. You're ahead of the game. So these are all good things. Like it's the future is bright. You just have to figure out what you're going to do. And it sounds like I think I know exactly what you're going to do. Yeah, I think Yeah, I guess I do too. Talking it out is definitely beneficial, too. >> Yeah. And the most important thing, like the biggest takeaway is it is so important to identify what you want out of life. You know what I mean? Like it's so important to hear you say like this is who I am. This is my sexuality. This is what I want. All of those things, saying that out loud is just so valuable. Like these things will all

33:04 come true for you. >> Yeah. >> So great. Have a great life, >> Michelle. >> It's gonna be awesome. >> This is Yeah, this is all really exciting for you. So, will you fill us in in like six months? >> All the advice. >> Yeah, for sure. And enjoy the town you live in while you're there. >> Yeah, it's amazing. >> Thank you so much. >> Okay, thank you. >> Take care. I have so many friends who didn't come out, which by the way, this is also fine, but like didn't come out until they were in their 30s or even in their 40s in some cases. And like this is so great for her. I'm so excited for her. >> What about Will Ferris? Harper. Harper. What's Harper's last name? >> I don't know Harper's last name. >> I always I want to say Harper Lee every time. And then that's the author. But she she I mean she just came out and

33:49 when she was in her 50s. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. It's so hard though cuz it's like there's this whole thing of like being young and queer and like having all those opportunities like living in Sydney. I say it all the time and I live in like New Town which is like the like gay capital of Australia and you see that and I'm sure she's seeing that and being like that looks so fun and like exactly what we were saying before. It's like that's where my life is going to start when that happens. Like I don't want to wait. I don't want to wait. But I think she's going to I think everything's going to turn out so perfectly for her. >> Yeah. Yeah. And she'll expand her community when it's the right time. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, our next caller is Rey and she says, "Dear Chelsea, I need your advice on being homesick, but also on being too emotionally exhausted to go home. Here's

34:37 the situation." >> What? >> About 5 years ago, I moved a little over 1400 miles away from my family. And honestly, the distance worked wonders for us. It's given us the space we've needed to heal our relationships, and we're all closer than ever. I miss them dearly, but every time I visit, the goodbyes are Oscar worthy tearjerkers. I've tried every family member for the airport drop off, trying to find the one that won't make a scene. And spoiler alert, they all do. It's gotten to the point where my return flights are filled with dissociation, panic attacks, going through security, and I spiral into a post-visit funk that lasts weeks after returning. Every time I get back to my life, which I might add is going great, it takes forever to remember that homesickness doesn't mean I need to sell everything and move back. It just means, well, I miss my people, and that's not a

35:23 bad thing. It's not just airport drop off either. Often times I'll visit for a full seven days and we barely make it to night too before someone's tearing up over the impending farewell. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the love, but I am so tired, exhausted, spent. I'm torn between wanting to visit more and wanting to avoid the emotional Olympics. And by the time I recover, it's time for another visit and we do this all over again. I do want to hold space for everyone's emotions and all that jazz, but I'd love to be honest and just say, "Y'all, I need you to be okay. Please, am I the [ __ ] here for feeling like I need to manage everyone's emotions? Please give it to me straight, Rey." >> Hi, Ray. >> Hello. >> Why is your family crying? Your What's up? How many people are there? And what's their problem?

36:08 Uh, it's like four of us in total, including my niece now who's starting to be old enough to like feed into all of this emotion that's around her. >> A baby crying is going to be that would be so hard. It's like you've got the adults and then you got the child the child. >> Absolutely. Yeah, I know. It's It's not It's like I get phone calls every now and then saying like, "We miss you. When are you coming back?" And they'll be like they'll put her on the phone and now she's the one who's like, "When are you coming back?" So it's uh it's a lot. I don't know. >> And do you feel you feel do you feel emotionally depleted because of their emotions or are you also emotionally is it emotionally difficult for you to leave? >> It is emotionally challenging for me. But the times that I've had a friend

36:54 like a non-biased party like drop me off at the airport, it's all fine. >> Yeah. >> Like the flight's fine. >> Coming back here is fine. Not a big deal. But yeah, anytime I've had family members drop me off, it's >> awful. It's so awful. >> Do you know how to take a [ __ ] Uber? >> Yes. But I'm saying like during the times that like, you know, we're sitting down for family dinner on night two out of seven and my dad's just looking at me tearing up and stuff, thinking about how I'm going to leave already, you know? It's like I want to be kind of like, "Guys, get your [ __ ] together." But I talked to my therapist about this and she's like, "You need to be grateful that they love you so much." And I'm like, "I get that, but I also want to." >> But both can be true, right? You can be grateful and also be like, "Get your

37:40 [ __ ] together." >> It's just it's not it's not like it's not productive, and it's clearly not helpful to you when you're leaving. And who knows what's going I mean it's not productive for any of you together in your family to be crying about leaving when you've just got somewhere. That doesn't make any sense. >> So >> absolutely. >> And you've never broached the subject with your family? >> No. I'm really trying to like let them have their feelings and I'm not trying to like make them feel any type of way, but it it's just getting to a point where it's making me want to move back. It makes me forget about how good my life is here. And it's not really like me to want to just like >> give up everything just to go back and like cuddle everybody. But it that's the

38:26 way it makes me feel. >> But that's guilt. That's guilt. Yeah. >> So they're making you feel guilty by their behavior and they're not intentionally making you feel guilty. Or maybe they are. I don't know. But that's neither here nor there. What you're feeling is guilt. And that's not a reason to do anything. >> Do you know what I mean? You didn't do anything wrong. You're living your life. Like you can't go back and live with your parents because it'll make them feel better. then you're sacrificing yourself. And there's a way to have like a healthy balanced visitation with them whenever you choose to go home and also live your fullest best life. And >> they kind of have to get on board with that. What do you think, Gemma? >> All right. I totally agree. I totally agree. I've got some solutions. I think that Chelsea, you've you've put nail on

39:11 the head. It's guilt. >> I really think that they should be coming to visit you a little bit more as well. I know it's hard with like little kids, but if the main thing for you is like coming back and the homesickness and the disruption to your routine and your like sense of joy with your current life, maybe it would work better if it's like they're in your home, they're in your place, your return return after they've left is less of a comedown. Um, also loved the advice. Get like a friend to drop you off. I have this problem with my family as well. And it's exhausting, right? It's exhausting. I And sometimes I'm like, I don't really can I come home for Christmas? I don't want to deal with that. >> And it's you love them. Yeah. You love them so much, but you're like, I want to

40:00 move forward with my life, but I also don't want to lose this relationship that we have that is so beautiful. What am I going to do? And I think the way I've really dealt with that is like we're going to meet in neutral places. So now we go on family holidays together where the experience is like, "Oh, I'm so sad that we're leaving this beautiful place or they come and visit me 50% of the time. So it's not as jolting." And also they appreciate that like my life is really lovely and if I was to move home, I'm going to give that up. If I was to move back to Melbourne, like I'm not going to have this. And surely that's what they want for me more than they want my presents. See what they see if they take the bait. see if you can do Christmas wherever you are. >> See, that's a great idea. That's a great idea to switch it up so you're not going to their house all the time. And how

40:46 frequently do you see them? >> Uh, it's like once a quarter is kind of once a fiscal quarter. >> Um, yeah, break it up. But I also don't think I I think you should I think there's a way to have a conversation like with your family and and not necessarily face to face like maybe in an email >> or a text >> to to ahead of time >> not a text that seems maybe like a family email to be like listen you guys I know it's emotional when I come home I feel the same way about you guys that you feel about me but it really weighs heavily on me every time I leave and I have this overwhelming guilt And I know you're not intentionally just let them off the hook right right away. Like I know you're not trying to make me

41:32 feel guilty, but it's becoming more difficult for me to visit you if the if this is how I have to leave. Like I don't want all these tears. It's it's you know it makes it pulls at me and I I don't want to stop visiting you. So, isn't there a way we can figure out, you know, a a more like pleasant way to spend our time enjoying each other's presence rather than fearing each other's absence? >> Absolutely. >> Write that down. That was idea of an email. Oh, I'm taking notes. >> I was going to say Ray is actually like our first caller ever who's actually writing things down >> because it's true. Like >> I sold the pen. >> Your family. Your family. That's true. the the time spent should just be loving and joyous and a reunion, not foreboing

42:17 and oh no, she's going to have to leave again. That's like very fearful, very guilty behavior. >> And there's so many nice ways to say that without making, you know, making it something like, you know, it doesn't have to be canankerous or, you know, like vitriolic. You're just saying out of love like it's getting harder for me to deal with leaving and, you know, I have a full life here. I'm very happy. I you know, so I mean, do they actually put it on the table for you to come move back? Do they suggest that a lot? >> Oh, yeah. They're always like, "We have a bedroom for you. We have some land we can put you something on. Like, you know, if you ever need to come back, you know, we've got spare funds for you to get you back here soon." >> So, that's all I mean. So, you should definitely be clear like as a as an adult woman, you should just be clear being like, "I also would rather you

43:03 guys not keep saying that every time I come home. It's almost like you're ignoring my life and the presence, you know, like I have a life. I'm happy. Don't you want me to be happy? >> I'm your daughter. You must want me to be happy. I am happy. So, can you please let me be happy so we can all be happy together? >> Yeah. I think you should like say say that too and let them know, you know, because that's all it's all very manipulative and even though they're they're your family and they love you, it's that's who you manipulate, the people that are closest to you. >> That's true. Have they has any have any of them been to visit you yet or not yet? >> Um they've all been out here once. Okay. >> Like they've come out here separately in the five years that I've been here. So there's definitely some opportunity for for some more visitation on their end. >> For sure.

43:48 >> Yeah. And then maybe you guys can find somewhere to go away for one of the holidays like Christmas one year. That would be fun. >> Oh yeah, Gemma. I really love that. I love the idea of meeting in like a neutral place. >> It's really good. And then you do activities rather than just sitting at the home. Mhm. >> That's the big thing I learned. We've like that you go out and do stuff rather than just being like, "Oh, let's go through the baby album." Like, "Look what you've done with your old room." It's like, "No, like let's go see let's go to the zoo. Let's go like go get coffee." >> Yeah. >> And make sure you you don't forget to mention, you know, how lucky you are to have such a loving family and how lucky you know you are, you know. >> Absolutely. >> Because you are. Thank you so much for not making me feel delusional because you know like I said I'm getting a second opinion here

44:34 because the first time around my advice was like be grateful and I'm like wait I am >> your therapist sucks. Just going to tell you that. Sorry. I know that's probably not right but >> you should get a new one. >> It might be time for a switch up for sure. >> Never a bad thing. >> All right, Ray. Thank you so much. >> Hopefully she's listening to this podcast so I can imagine. >> We'll just send this to her. It's fine. Well, I see her tomorrow, so I'll check in. I'm sure I'll find out. >> Bad day for her. >> Thanks for calling and good luck with everything. >> Thank you so much. Nice to meet you all. >> Bye. >> Okay. Uh we'll take a break and we'll be right back with Gemma ZBG. And we're back with Gemma. >> We are back. So, we have one final question. Uh this comes from Briana. She

45:20 says, "Dear Chelsea, I'm a 26-year-old woman and I've recently started a new job as a marketing coordinator for a small company. I previously worked as a bartender since I was 18 years old." She must be in Canada or something. I bartended through college and always made great money. So, after graduating, I kind of got stuck in the industry and wasn't thinking about looking for a different job. I started to get sick of it and decided it was time to start a more stable career. And now that I have that, I'm realizing it may not be what I want. At my entry-level position, I'm currently making less money working 8 to 5 Monday to Friday than I was working maybe 30 hours a week at a bar. I'm picking up weekend shifts at the bar for extra cash. And I'm starting to feel burnt out. I'm also struggling with the lack of freedom that comes with the 8 to 5 and feel like I don't have time for things that I love to do like working

46:06 out or going to going to a yoga class. I hate sitting at a desk all day and it feels like the company I'm working for doesn't have enough for me to do. So, I'm extremely bored and feeling very unfulfilled. Get out of there. >> I also have a passion for traveling and scuba diving. And I know that working in the corporate world will limit the amount of time I can travel compared to being able to take time off whenever I want while bartending. I'm torn between wanting to stick it out and give it some time to get the experience and hopefully move up to a different position or company that I enjoy more and saying [ __ ] it and going back to bartending. Any advice is greatly appreciated. P.S. Your podcast is currently the only thing getting me through my long boring days at the office. Much love, Briana. >> Oh, that sounds that sounds so boring. >> Honestly, that job sounds awful.

46:53 >> I would go back to bartending. Honestly, you feel like you're adventurous. You want to do more things with your life. Sitting in a job hoping that you're going to get promoted at some point to a different position >> where you'll still be at a desk. >> Where you still be if you're not Some people are meant to be sitting at desks and some people are not. I'm not. I can't sit behind a desk. I can't even sit on a couch without, you know, like this. I have to sit criss-cross applesauce. I'm like, I can't even do any, you know, like I get it. I totally feel you. And I would say that's your that's your deep inner self telling you this is not the way you want to go through life. And if you can go through life being a bartender, making probably twice as much money as you're going to make at that entry-level office job and with working

47:40 half as much and have all that extra time to do all of the things that you want to do like yoga or scuba dive or travel, then I think it's a no-brainer. What I would say also is you don't just because it's this isn't the job doesn't mean that there isn't another job out there for you that can like use your creativity or your brain in a way that you would be you know more kind of attuned to do or better equipped to do I'll say you should keep thinking about what you what you are passionate about you know maybe you are maybe you're so passionate about scuba diving you want to become a dive Maybe you're so passionate about travel, you want to be a flight attendant or you want to be in some sort of, you know, run a travel group. Like you should look to your areas of interest that are

48:26 really like that take up your time and and look at job opportunities in those areas. >> And you know what is a great side hustle while you're learning to be a scuba master? What is it? Dive master. Bartending. Help pay the bills while you're seeking out the thing that you're actually passionate about. >> Yeah. What do you think, Gemma? agree with everything above. I will say one caveat. I have a six-month job rule. So, if you're still within that six-month period, I know it might sound counter to what you want us to say, but wait out the 6 months. You don't know whether it's just the adjustment that's scary or whether it's actually the job. Um, I know it it sounds like it's pretty boring. So, I'm guessing that like maybe

49:12 you get to six months and you still hate it, but then you can say like, I gave it a shot. I tried this. It didn't work. Instead of leaving after 2 to 3 months and being like, maybe I just didn't give it enough time and then finding yourself in that cycle of like feeling bad and then going back and then hating it and blah blah blah blah blah. Um, also like I don't know, I'm someone who hated working a desk job. Worked a desk job for like a long time. Always knew I didn't want to do it, but I use it as my security net to do something else that was more what I wanted to do. So, there isn't one way to go through it. You can work the corporate job, get maybe a couple of promotions, start making good enough money to be planning for a new branch to your life. Um, as of right now though, I would say maybe time to get

50:00 out of there. >> I think the six month I think the six-month rule is is good. You know, I think that's a good kind of barometer. Uh, too. I don't think it has to happen tomorrow. You know, you can wait a little bit and see. But either way, you're probably leaving. So, yeah, >> that's the story. >> All right. Well, Brana, let us know how it goes and we can go to wrap. >> Okay. Okay. Well, Gemma, thank you so much for coming here with your 20 your 20-year-old self and giving advice to other 20-year-olds. We really needed it. >> Yeah, I'm glad that you guys learned how absolutely [ __ ] it is for us. >> I know. I know. I I didn't love that part, but I guess I understand it. But I think every generation, every like, you know, is dealing with their own ball of

50:45 [ __ ] But it always feels like whatever the youngest generation is right now, it has it the worst. You know what I mean? Like before the before that it was the 30-year-olds and now so it's it's really hard to say if it's just that period of your life or if it really if the world is really a scarier place than it was. And I am of the belief that the world is a scarier place than it was. >> Sorry, 20s. >> Innocence is over. There is no longer innocence. >> Yeah, have to agree with that one. >> And Gemma, where can everyone find you? >> So, I have my own podcast. It's called The Psychology of Your 20s. We talk about a lot of what we spoke about today. You can also follow me on Instagram, That Psychology Podcast or Gemma Spegg. Gemma with a J, Sp.

51:34 >> Thank you, Gemma. Have a great rest of your night. >> Uh, morning. >> Morning. >> Have a great rest of your morning, Gemma. >> Thanks so much. Thanks for having me on. Bye. [Music]