The Whole Truth Behind Big Finish Eighth Doctor Companion C'Rizz with Conrad Westmaas

0:00 g'day mate uh this is John Dorney and you're listening to the sounds of audio podcast now we've just been hearing disturbing reports of creatures from the Divergent Universe I'm going to investigate this flaming you thomason's in the toy box [Music] all right [Music]

0:57 g'day audio files this is the Sirens of audio the show that explores the universe of Doctor Who in the audio medium I'm Dwayne and I'm Philip good day audio Fosgate rain g'day Philip I'm very excited you know why yeah I think I'm excited for the same reason Dwayne well because the 60th anniversary is coming and we're doing another 60th anniversary themed episode oh well I was more excited by the person to be perfectly honest but that's okay well that's all part of it but I've got it I've got to say what this is about and yes all of our episodes running up to the 60th anniversary are going to have an anniversary type theme and did you know that it's been almost in January next year it'll have been 20 years since the Creed of the common do

1:42 you remember that episode Philip I do indeed it changed the shape of big Fitness for a long time it certainly did and we're very privileged to have with us the star of that episode Conrad westmas g'day Conrad hello how are you doing that was a that's quite an introduction I've never been described as that before and that's quite something but thank you subscribers many other things along the way so don't worry about Connor welcome thank you so much it's absolutely brilliant to be here thank you no we were the star of that one because we had a brand new companion created we had the Divergent Universe which was all very exciting um so we're going to be able to talk with you in depth about that has it been a while since you've talked about these these times

2:29 um actually it hasn't because um do you know Kenny Smith of yes expert and he's wonderful well I think I'm allowed to say this but basically because uh back in the day the audience we did were all on CDs and now they're on downloads um some of the downloads don't have extras or interviews and stuff on them so Kenny has gone back and actually done little little small interviews about some of the stories that we didn't make it that we didn't do interviews or extras for at the time so I've had a little over the last year had to dig out some of these old stories and listen to them and as you say it was it's 20 years ago so it's that's that's just wild so I have been talking about them a little bit but in a kind of polite official way and that's

3:14 not what I'm going to do today oh good it's actually probably 20 years since your first release which was actually Omega and that was the first thing you actually finish and that is that would have been in August yeah August 20 years in August so if we finish for over 20 years I'm so glad you guys know this stuff because it's just like a blur you know it's funny when you watch Like A Doctor Who uh you know interview or an extra on TV and they go yes I was in the terror of fang Rock in 1985 and you're like stop getting Doctor Who wrong you were in it how can you not know and now I just like I can't remember what year what month but yeah it's funny it's all there it's in there I can't remember either I've just done some research and made some notes so I just pretend like I know what I'm talking about as long as one of us does we're all good at least one of us is doing notes I just guess

3:59 so you've been a doctor who fan for quite some time too I believe yes I have probably about I'm 52 now and I've probably been a doctor who fan for about 50 of those um so my first memory of anything at all on this planet uh is the sea Devils coming out of the sea um and I looked up and it was a repeat it would have been a repeat of it I think I would have been two three-ish so probably late like three-year-old and I can vividly remember the sea Devils coming out of the sea on a repeat hazy memories of pert we I can sort of Rage remember Alpha Centauri the spiders that sort of it but robot was the first my first story that I really yeah I watched every single one since then my sister was five years older than me so she loved it so she was always

4:45 making sure she was watching it so I consequently saw everything so yeah it was um it was you know Tom Baker Liz Laden Ian martyr Dave Ross zygons we're in you know pyramids that's that's you know how can I not be a doctor who fan you know growing up through that so pretty exciting times what a memory to be seared into into your brain fantastic yeah so I think I had no choice to be a doctor fan so we could say giant giant spiders from Australia we look at them and we go they're not spiders they're not giant they're not spiders they're not giant spiders spies our bathrooms but they're not charged you're hardcore yeah we're going to go a little bit more in depth with you in a minute about your I guess your fan Journey your career and eventually

5:31 becoming a companion to the doctor but before we do that Philip do you know what yeah you do come on be a bit more surprised we're going to jump down the rabbit hole let's go [Applause] [Music] don't encourage him Conrad [Laughter] we're here we're here Conrad you can stop now okay all right here's my question and it always goes without notice whatsoever to Philip it's just a simple question I'm happy you can send to the guest first if you want to no no no no it's got to be you thanks what it's a very simple

6:18 question what makes the perfect Doctor Who companion oh dear um female in a short skirt no no that's the dad's answer that's what John Nathan twins thoughts um okay perfect Dodger companion I think it's changed I actually it's interesting in some ways it's it's become again what has started so I think the perfect doctor companion was Barbara originally I think you had because you had an older doctor um I think Susan was supposed to be a way of seeing the universe but she just didn't work I think unfortunately for whatever reason the writers didn't know how to write for her so she wasn't the perfect companion I think Barbara was

7:04 the perfect companion she was the point of view the audience had she was skeptical but caring she was inquisitive and she trusted the doctor and in the end just wanted to be there and just enjoyed life and I think for a long time they lost what the perfect companion looked like and really rediscovered again I think with well I went through someone's with rose rose was again created to be someone who actually wasn't equal to the doctor who gave the doctor what's for um I think Ace was a bit of an attempt to be that sort of person but she was still a child I guess because Ace and Rosa was much different in age but Rose was able to stand up for herself a bit

7:50 more than Ace was the doctor wasn't trying to manipulate her and make her terrified so for me perfect companion someone who trusts the doctor who loves the adventure who is confident and strong in their own right um inquisitive and occasionally just needs to be rescued but also can do the rescuing so those are the sort of qualities off the top of my head I'd be looking for and I think we have had lots of them through the way and some have been better with than others some some like Elizabeth Slade and I think Sarah Jane wouldn't have been anything like as good as she would have would be without an actress like Elizabeth Slade and making every line sing and taking plain lines and making them exciting

8:35 um I think grains at the same thing in the Jody Whitaker era grain was spectacular with every line that he had and no matter how bad the material was you noticed him um but then other characters have been lucky just to have some interesting things but often depends on the writer I mean you know Leela amazing character on paper works so well with you know for the first three stories and first four stories in particular and then she just became a generic you know we'll just kind of make a scream which Luis fought against and so I think saved the character in some parts um because I say I love all the companions and then you know in in terms of audio I mean I think you know you know Charlie's my favorite companion on audio and always has been I think Charlie was just the perfect

9:21 character for the doctors just created so well for form again brilliantly played by an amazing actress in India um she had compassion and sympathy and just a joy of life and I I wanted to be there with her so I think good companion you want to be with with them and spend time with them Conrad what are you what are your thoughts on that and I can beat that but I think the only thing I'd add to that I think is is because my I think like you hit a lot of the points of some of my favorite commands like I do genuinely especially in classic here I love them all for me high points are just sort of like Barbara uh Sarah Jane obviously uh Ace I really love and in the new series Rose and I would also just in an unbiased way also say Charlie I've always said that I

10:06 think she it's there's something about all of those people now obviously it's the actors who bring have brought those actors so much to life but I think another quality I'd add to it is sort of a flexibility and adaptability with not only the doctor but if but the lead man you're playing with you need to be in both cases you need to be able to understand to step back when they're having a beat and let them have a big moment or know when to challenge them or know when so no doctor being an idiot we're supposed to be doing this or knowing when to sort of stand back and look pretty and ask questions um and it actually that counts for both on screen and off screen because as maybe we'll get into there's there's an awful lot of blur between those things so I'd say everything Philip said and

10:52 I'll say flexibility and adaptability as well yeah I I agree with what you said too Phillip uh particularly with Barbara but I would also add Ian to that because he I think he balances um what the companion can be for for different people because Ian was was the was the action man he was designed that way Barbara was the compassionate person um so I think yes they they were always my favorite of the of the first doctor era those two I mean I I love you I love you I love him as well but I think Ian of poses the doctor is Barbara's job to be the go between between the two of them and to bring them back together again so yeah but I mean yeah

11:37 plot wise he's great I mean there's there's no there's not a TV companion I don't like so even dodo I think I think for dodo it was a stick of anyone um I can actually see some great colors in her and I think in the gun fighter she's amazing I was gonna say gunfighters is yeah top of the list in the gunfighters um just roughly roughly roughly treated and there's only a couple of audio companions I just don't think works and yeah I mean well one of the non-big finished companions we talked about last night which will come up sometime um yeah fit on the hole yeah I I on the whole they're really well written by across the board because people know what we need

12:23 but somehow some are able to carry a bit more with them and that's usually through either good rights or both good writing and good performances some some performers can just get themselves up even with or rewriting but some companions just have amazing writing and amazing performances and then they just glow I mean you know Catherine takes another one I mean you know she's just amazing what she she can do too and a very different sort of campaign to what we were getting with rose and Frozen them Martha to start off with it's amazing how they got it so right with Barbara Wright and Jacqueline Hills like how could you get pretty much the best companion one of the arguably the best if someone says Barbara's the best companion you kind of can't really argue if you don't even if you don't agree but how to get us out of sit in 60 years how

13:09 to get it so absolutely right on the first go that sort of astonishing how they did that yeah and obviously viewed as being I mean you know she's amazing um check on the hill um you know she's just happy to be the best friend of the producer who said I think Jackie would be good for this anyway she didn't have to go through the whole audition process that other people went through but just you know sort of pulled out through nepotism um still paid half of what um when Russell was paid mind you um you know being a woman why why would you pay the same as William Russell um but yeah carries carries so much of the show for those early years and there's just the high point for two years Perhaps Perhaps my question what makes the perfect companion makes you think

13:55 too much about looking for one or two of but there are so many over over the years and it's the different relationships between the different characters that make magic like you you referred to Sarah Jane Smith but skipped over Joe Grant so there's there's Sarah Jane is interesting because she crossed over between the more human third doctor and the more alien fourth doctor so there's that crossover there but throughout the Joe Grant years we had this really warm caring relationship it was it was very human whereas you then you go to the fourth doctor Armani you've got that almost alien relationship which is a different Dynamic once again but then Romana

14:42 decides to go and regenerate and it becomes a lot more friendly for oh for more reasons than one I guess um but yeah there are so many different Dynamics uh for for the different doctors personalities as well I mean think about Colin Baker and his personality how he was when he first regenerated very cold very Snappy and then his companions throughout his time especially big finish and we we haven't mentioned uh Evelyn yet she's probably my favorite big Finnish uh a big Finnish companion um she brought something that really softened the the sixth doctor to the point where he's like he was starting to soften you could tell on television in

15:28 mysterious planet when he and Perry were really softening from that previous season um but by the time Evelyn came along softened him right up and then he was a different person almost within that one regeneration he was several different people so very interesting the way these companions can can even soften a doctor and it might have even happened with Capaldi as well he started off very hard and he kind of softened and was a different person again with Bill at the end and and uh we got the all these different variations of the same doctor don't know what you guys think of that yeah I think just an earlier point I think in part what we like in people is of what we look for in the companion so for I think

16:15 Joe I think that I think Joe and the Third Doctor were lovely together and I still cried the green death when she leaves but it was very much a she was a you know being protected relationship he was there to protect and look after her and and that which I think worked well I mean I think I probably preferred at least shortly purely honest because Liz was smart intelligent strong-willed didn't need saving with Joe did need the protection and I think naturally John putry gives that sort of protection that the hug but why I'm more attracted to Sarah Jane Smith is because she was a lot feistier and strong and independent which is if I'm looking for who do I want my daughters to be daughters to be I wanted to be like Sarah Jane more than Joe Grant now do I love Grant's companion yes do I think I love Katie Manning I do um but in terms of who don't want my

17:01 daughters to be I'd like them to be more like Sarah Jane or I'd like them to be more like rose so I guess I'm looking in terms of what are the characteristics I want to see in my daughters and so those are the other things that appeal to me the most but yeah you are right they interplay with doctor and companion is really important and yeah you think of doctors you think of the companion with them um so with the first stocks I think you do think of Ian Barbara like I do think they come as a set um you know second doctors Jamie third doctor's Joe Fourth Doctor probably Sarah Jane um but then he's yeah he actually have a huge bag doesn't he um Tegan for the fifth um Perry for the sixth um Ace for the seventh so they've all got their sets that go together

17:48 um and that's yes they sort of do help Define who the doctor is and I think that's a good point you said about that you know that obviously the doctor change of can change so there's a completely different person from one to the next but like you said he also changes or she he or she also changes throughout their run and also they change scene by scene or even mid scene they'll change so it's like loyalty I'd add to that because you have to love that person or at least be loyal to them to deal with that level of BS you know just them being so changeable there's gonna be something at the core you believe in because they can be a nightmare one minute and your best friend the next so yeah yeah loyalty I'll add to that absolutely true anything left that we haven't covered on companions or there's tons we've left that we haven't covered

18:34 but yeah Conrad a great outfit a weird outfit a uniform you know if you do it you're rocking a uniform and you want to wear that for three years you rock that if you fancy you know if you're from the Victorian era and you want to have a mini skirt you crack on you know just wear some if you want your girl Mass badge Kilt just wear some wear some mad stuff you've got the Tardis wardrobe you're in time and space we wear what you freaking like so yeah a a crazy kooky sometimes sexy costume yeah because the doctor doesn't doesn't use that wardrobe too much although he may do soon judging by the pictures that

19:19 we've seen so that could be interesting an interesting change of Direction all right I think on that note did you want to say something else Conrad no I'm good I'm just really excited to have done a rabbit hole I'm thrilled I love that but I made it yeah awesome all right well let's crawl up out of the rabbit hole and before we uh talk to you further let's throw in the trailer for The Creed of the common because as I said in January 2024 it will be 20 years since that story has been released Doctor Who the Creed of the chromon foreign [Music]

20:26 so I wonder where we are well the landscape seems the same as we saw earlier yeah dry and dusting why wouldn't the Croaker let us through wants to hide there must be life somewhere there must be technological development the crook seemed interested in the Tardis we can worry about his interest when we find the old girl I always inducted taken with lighter to Alpha sphere well there were hundreds of us we were graded assessed for work and usefulness divided into groups everyone was herded away until only leider and I were left are the common native to this love I know they're not like us

21:18 [Music] consumption successful and requested information we're not your enemy carries please believe that I'm not going to read you this content we've been stuck with him for the whole show so far because he wanted to come into the rabbit hole which would be great to have you so far um I want to take you back back to Titanic no uh let's go back to where were you born where did you grow up tell us a bit about your early years Conrad yeah I was born um in a place called Hawley which is near London just outside London but I grew up in big inverted commas um in the west country um in a little city called Wells and it's only a city because it's got a

22:04 cathedral in it but basically it's one of those you know chocolate boxy Miss marply kind of you know morning vicar you know Mr bun the baker Mrs Sparks electrician's wife you know a nice little cozy chocolate box English what would be a town but is it is a a city and I kind of I grew up there and um very very happy you know I just I think I had a really happy childhood and a lot of it was to do with the fact I had a really I I was very into Doctor Who and Star Wars and Batman and cartoons and all that kind of stuff and I've just had a very I've always had like a really sort of strong relationship a very healthy relationship with my fantasy life and later on that so I think when things started coming along later that I was in

22:49 or got involved in it was always sort of Fairly natural to me that there was this two-way door I always sort of assumed that I didn't I never I never really kind of got the got a grip between the separation of reality and fantasy so yeah but yeah I had a very very happy upbringing and Doctor Who was a big part of that I think do you feel you've missed out on your creative Side by not having this tortured childhood that you needed to to be really creative and explore yourself no that came later the the the the torture Despair and all of that don't worry I had my fair share plenty of that in other adult life but I was a relatively happy childhood thank goodness I think it's part of um you mentioned before your age um I've been to a lot of 21st and 50th in the last 12 months or so it's interesting this speeches the 21st are always about Hope and what the future holds and by the 50s all about well

23:35 we've managed to get to this point I'll be lucky we've survived yeah um you've mentioned before you love Doctor Who when did you decide that you were going to be an actor when did the whole creative side take hold and how yeah I was in it was when I was at a when I was actually really little and I had to go from I think more of his inference to Junior School which would be like six to seven the reason I didn't want to go to Junior School is because they did plays and I thought that was really scary and the first time they did a play like a nativity or something they're like who wants to be in the chorus and I was just like put my hand up because I was like great I can hide in the background and they just went along went no we need to leave the lead person in you know like you're cute come to come to the front you're the lead person I was like having said I didn't want to be in it at all and be in the chorus they just shoved me out the front

24:21 and I had to go with Anna quite liked it but then um when I went to when I was a teenager and I went to comprehensive school we had a really really excellent Drama teacher or like one of those teachers that really made a difference and really made it called Mr Wilde what a great name Mr Wilde and you can actually see Mr Wilde in the film Hot Fuzz which was all filmed the Simon Pegg movie and it was all filmed around Wells where I grew up and it's a little Gundam because Edgar Wright now I think about it he was two years below me in school so he had the same teachers and that kind of stuff so Mr world was one of those drama teachers who just it was brilliant and I used to spend all of my lunch breaks and after school locking them out with my mates in the drama thing and we kind of ran the drama thing and it really

25:07 it it allowed me to kind of just play get through school and deal with all the school stuff I I kind of was probably a bit of a late developer in and I was able to just play and sort of have a bit of an extended childhood and so at school I was read I got through school pretty well and you know especially like being gay as well you've all got to deal with but actually I felt very happy and protected because I was like we were like come on guys let's paint a set let's do that you're probably really obnoxious but we're always like come on guys let's put on a show and that was us all through school but at the same time Mr world was really strict he was terrifying like everyone was terrified of him I wasn't because we were doing drama so it was good but he I didn't really realize until I did stuff professionally later that he was

25:53 actually teaching us the disability it's not all laughing about and fun or rather the more fun and creativity you want the the more rigid your boundaries more professional you've got to be the more on time you've got to be you don't piss about it's very very so he was brilliant so I think that's that really instilled it in me and then when I by the time I kind of got to late teens you know you're trying to be all serious and sensible so I kind of I packed it in and entered went off and did other stuff went to University and stuff did you have any musical influences um or tastes yeah it's funny my I talk about my childhood being very happy and very formative and I think if you'd have asked me when I was a kid or at school what's your favorite program film and music I would have said Doctor Who Star Wars and Kate Bush and

26:40 if you ask me now what's your favorite program film and music you know it's the same um and it like it's I'm just lucky that those things which could have lasted three or five years just happened to have lasted decades well not happened they're all really excellent um so yeah they're my key tastes they always have been and I don't think I've ever changed them I mean maybe that makes me very limited or whatever but I just think I have phenomenally good taste at an early age well it's funny because I have always been since childhood Doctor Who Star Wars ever and it would still still hasn't changed in 50 years amazing I'm hoping to see the the show the Abba show later this year because Brendan Jones from flight through entirety is coming over to the UK and I think he's going so I might try and see if I can join him and go to that I'm playing the fly over there just to see

27:26 it's I've had a friend go over and see it three times if I come from Australia three times to go see it so yes it's it's on my um bucket list hopefully next year that's my plan um you just mentioned before in terms of your sexuality in terms of being in high school um in in terms of what at what point did you did you understand that you were gay and what influence did that play in terms of your loves of Doctor Who or theater Etc was that a major influence I say some big questions right there like I think in terms of when I had a sense of what my sexuality actually was it's the same time as everyone else is like normal development 12 between 11 13 14 you're kind of going you know you kind of know what's going on um so that's when I had to work you know I had my sexuality the same as time as

28:11 everyone else but like everybody else I can track back from when I was Tiny and I can see my attitudes towards gender like men and women and seeing the things I liked it's it's kind of amazing how early that's formed and and it comes at you in a different way but there's just like this sounds so freaking corny but you know how it's such a a um a cliche they're like all gay men like Wizard of Oz and Judy Garland and all that kind of stuff it's like yeah it is a cliche but when I was like three or four when I saw that I was like something about that just beams certain things I also sort of like gayness and campus and that kind of stuff is like a frequency that only some people can kind of hear or get and some things like the

28:56 wizard of all just beams straight in there it's like I could leave my home and go off to Big colorful technical world with my friends something about this speaks to me and there are but there are certain certainly formative influences and I've always said you can see like there's a Batman thing over there Batman 66 that was incredibly formative I won't go too far into that but uh I've actually been quite curious about I'm very curious about stuff like sexuality and psychology so I've actually gone back and really tried to retrace where all these these influences came from that was certainly a thing where it wasn't I'm understanding this in asexual way so six or seven but something about that like made sense in my brain and continued to make sense and it was often like the villains like this but this like bunch of this this freak

29:42 Show of these weirdos I'm like yeah I like you know it's like there's something about you I think it's because quite quickly you realize that you're different and in the adult world that's being presented to you is not isn't quite something about it doesn't ring true so I think gay and queer people have a sense of The Uncanny or what's behind that curtain or that there's something else going on that that the adult world isn't quite right which I think is why huge generalization I think gay and queer people are often are often very attracted to sort of what appear to be frivolous or Surface or artificial things is because they have an innate sense of spotting what's real or what's behind the sort of curtain I think that's a that's a key thing also

30:30 when I was I think when I was nine Flash Gordon came out in 1980 and if you see Flash Gordon you're going to come out knowing which side you're on because that is a very there's something there's something for everybody in that film you know what I'm talking about do you know all the straight boys are thinking Hmm princess Aura and all the you know anyone who likes men is thinking Sam Jones and other shorts that film is a sorter if your kid or if you're not sure about your sexuality pop on Flash Gordon 1918 you'll be very clear by the end of it now early on I mean the part of Music I've racist early on you talk about the gay kid in the in the drama room were you out and comfortable as in school or was it still something that was hidden no it's a totally different era so I was you know while I was sort of just being

31:16 me you know just like a just sort of happy happy kid and it wasn't really I think there was one kid who was out at school and he obviously had a horrible time of it I was still kind of a bit unsure it was a different time and also it was it was the 80s and I mean any discussion of being gay was just linked to AIDS where you had these terrifying adverts coming out so no I I didn't actually come out to come out until I was like 21 or something when I went to University and that seems very very late now maybe but back then it was sort of appropriate like I said I sort of had an extended childhood and didn't really I think you know I did I started to experiment and stuff happened you know mid-teens I started to to get a bit of action here and there but um I didn't really come out now until I went to

32:02 University okay do you think is this really has played a part in terms of career choice and where you've headed as much as anyone else's yeah um you know like a nasty straight person like what being about heterosexual LED you to being a bank manager you look it's very hot it's kind of hard to separate but um I think it you know there is a long tradition of you know gay people being very artistic or very creative I don't know why that is we're drawn to like I said it's this part of that explanation is I think oh yeah we know how to play in a fantasy world we know what we can see behind the curtain the game's up we know this is one big bloody play and it isn't real whereas I think if you're straight it's much easier to accept you know the the world is being presented to you you know men women marriage kids it's a very it's very congruent with your parents life their grandparents life your life and so

32:48 I think it I think there's less need to look outside that structure whereas I think if you're you're queer pretty you you learn you learn pretty quick and also you've got to lie and hide and you've got to learn all kinds of skills like in in class you've got to learn how to be invisible if if some subject comes up about being gay you just learn how to sort of Shimmer out and be invisible or you learn how to adapt how you talk or modulate your voice or your wrist you know like you have you learn very quickly how to be a bit of a I also like being gay is like a superpower you you know it's a bit of a curse it's a bit of a blessing but you do learn certain modes you learn very at a very young age that you have to adapt you can't just be the person people want you to be you've got to have Alter Egos and fantasy lives and you have to be

33:36 yeah and so yeah I think my sexuality probably is involved in in my creativity to that respect because I think gay people no they've been play acting for a long time they've had to so obviously go to university or how how do you get into acting from there what what is your plan for Life what was you telling you playing when you left school okay I'm I'm sort of in my early 20s you know in the 90s so I haven't got a clue what's going on um but I went to University I did Communications which now is quite common but then it was quite an unusual hybrid of like psychology sociology with also film studies and TV studies and all that's Jazz moved to London um and my first proper job was I didn't have any plan but I moved to London and my first proper proper job but is I

34:22 worked for 20th Century Fox and as I'll probably sort of will keep coming up as a bit of running theme as I've sort of realized it's I'm incredibly lucky I don't know why cool stuff just seems to happen to me without me really trying too hard so that's nice and I was on the obviously I was working in a shop I was working at Harrods it was ridiculous um but one of the suppliers phoned me at one time and we were just chatting and he went um oh did you see that Princess Diana interview on parent Panorama the big princess die interview I was like no I was watching this other thing this new show called The X-Files which I really love he's like oh I've got a friend he's involved in that and I spent oh he hasn't got any jobs as a half joking and he went yeah I think he has actually I'll put you in touch and it turned out that the 20th Century Fox was were opening an office in SoHo Square to do all the licensing and Merchandising so I

35:09 did a bit of research on the early internet I had to use my dad's internet to look up X-Files merchandise no I sort of I found a cut I saw a couple of really cool uh light up X watch by a company called Wesco who I think the Doctor Who clocks and watches and an interview or he was like do you know about the X-Files and I was like genuinely I do I know all about the X-Files and I said yeah I've very cool merchandise I love this watch and this guy went I designed it I designed it and I think I had the job so it's one of those little see I say I'm lucky but actually that's a little bit of research a little bit of making your own luck but so I worked a 20th Century Fox in my early 20s which was a dream come true we worked on The Simpsons Buffy X-Files and it was around the time stuff like baz lemon like Romeo and Juliet Titanic you know it was it was amazing I mean I was working in SoHo square and basically all

35:54 day long I was just playing with toys and approving Simpsons merchandise and going to movie premieres down the road it was like amazing I've got to tell you this ridiculous story because this this shows you how ridiculous it was like you always had to keep a tux on the on the coat stand because if there was a someone like someone they'd all be like oh there's tickets like this better tickets to Premiere down the road you're like tucked up you're down the road but I remember one time it was around the time of the Star Wars re-releases you know and they did the special editions whatever you call them at the cinema and uh the pr guy came to me in a massive panic and he had two big Trunks and he was like you know you've got to help me you've got to help me you like Star Wars I was like yeah and he said there's a Premiere tonight George Lucas is coming there's the original Darth Vader costume and there's a replica one and I've got them mixed up

36:41 and I don't know which is which can you help me and he's George Lucas is coming there's a big walk down Stormtroopers Jordan you've got to help me and I was like okay wait wait I got this and I looked and I sort of circle these box I picked up the helmets and did this and I was just like I was like yeah definitely definitely that one he's like thank God you're a lifesaver and ran off and I had no idea I just wanted him to have an easy time I'm like George Lucas is gonna be too busy nobody cares but like that's the level of crazy very very fun but then one day I was someone said oh do you want to see the films we've got foxes got coming up for the next couple of years and I was like sure and I looked through this uh flick of this spreadsheet and I was like oh you know Aliens new aliens movie oh right and you animated movie cool and then as the years went by the the the slots the film's title stop happening and then it was just like Valentine's Day chick

37:27 flick summer animated film Christmas some comedy and I and I knew you know you don't work for a big group at Murdoch company without knowing you're just there to make money but seeing it so boldly that like these people don't care about films at all they've got no idea they just and I think just seeing it just really made me very disillusioned and it was just a moment where I was like and I think in a corporate environment I don't think I'd last that long anyway so I probably lasted three years and I was like I hate this I hate this I now hate this job and I just need to go somewhere else so basically I did a bit of soul searching and then I bug it off to drama school um quite late lots of late 20s or something yeah I went off to walk off to drama school for two years so that's why I got there so what was

38:14 that experience like yeah it depends which drama school you went to I went to a place called the poor school it's not that well known it was near King's cross it was known for being very Rough and Ready it churned out a lot of EastEnders I think um Jesse Wallace if that's still her name uh she went like she was there above me there were a lot of EastEnders around it it kind of turned out kind of the reputation was for very hard-working actors because it was incredibly tough it was probably the heart the toughest I've worked I think two solid years 36 of us started 16 of us made it it was you're basically you'll learn and again this is what I was talking about the discipline you learned from school you just like you're never like you're never late you're never ill if you're thinking of being ill I want to speak to the he's

39:00 in charge of the hospital bed you're in like you can't do that on stage you can't be late you can't be ill so you're not going to be and so it was really and it was very strict and it the guy who ran it was a brilliant nasty alcoholic and so you know you got swore rat shout out to that it was hideous um but it was also the most wonderful experience so it was very tough so it was I was really kind of grateful for that and I was able to deal with it so I did that for two years and it was it was fantastic and then I came out of that in my early 30s with a completely blank CV and I'm like geez I'm 30 and my sick you know because I'd start I'd re-change career and I had an empty CV and I had to start from scratch doing plays I only really wanted to do theater that's all I ever really wanted to do and so you're doing like things for like

39:47 no money above a pub you know new writer Clap the classic stuff and then just sort of built up as you do and and you saw you know you you need your next job's a bit better than your next jobs a bit veterans then someone rehires you and then you get an agent and then you then it kind of builds up um I mean yeah and then I think my first professional job what I would call Professional um was a tour of Abigail's party it was the 25th anniversary tour of Abigail's party at Hampstead theater and I was understudying but I was covering this wonderful guy called Stefan rodri he's an amazing actor and what a lovely guy he said um I think I might be feeling a cold coming on that might be coming on on Monday if you want to go on I was

40:32 like oh what a shame I hope you feel better after Monday so I knew I was going to get to I said bless him he just he just sort of took a dive and let me have a night on stage and it was amazing and that that's like that that does something different to you when you're in a proper production of something big audience in a proper theater and you're getting a big laugh that kind of stuff is like oh oh I like this I'm playing I play the part of Tony and playing my wife was one little unknown called Lizzy hopley whatever happened to her I always keep meaning to ask yes I don't know what happened to her yeah so that was and that kind of you know that know then things started to take off and you know obviously we've been friends with Lizzy ever since so and and then from then yeah then I'm looking for like good proper stuff and then then you're upper level and you just have to drag yourself up a level each time

41:19 um and yeah and basically I think so I did a trained for two years and I acted for 10 years uh and and it was brilliant it was really hard work I really enjoy I really loved it because I'd made it myself you know there's a total blank CV and then you know you get to the back of the taxi one day and the guy goes oh what do you do and you're like oh I suppose I'm an actor and then then you are and just because you say you are you kind of create it and then you are and I did lots of theater I did lots of Shakespeare I did lots of physical theater there was a sort of phase I went to doing a lot of very very a lot of work with amazing physical theater companies like frantic assembly and punch drunk and Adventures in motion picture and I loved all that stuff and then a very big Shakespeare phase which I I loved which culminated in

42:07 in doing a Romeo and Juliet the globe which was just like wow if you want to do theater and if you've always liked Shakespeare and remember Mr Wilde took me to see my first Shakespeare play you know and so like if you want if you like acting and you like theater and then you find yourself at the globe you know on your own on stage 2 000 people and they call it the globe because it's their Circle and when you're on stage there's people as high up as you can see as far left as you can see as far right as you can see and then you look down and there's people like that you know looking up so all the world's a stage and it was like you know a laugh getting a laugh or response in that big wooden space that's a that's a very nice feeling and we toured it all around Europe all these Shakespeare festivals and that was real

42:53 highlight but I think that's slightly scratched and itching me because nothing was ever the same after that I did I'm still working still getting parts but I'm I was like something's not here and I think really really honestly I I think part of me was just like I can't I can't beat that in my something in my heart just was like after that I wasn't really something I don't know my heart wasn't it heart wasn't as in it as much after that and you can't do acting if your heart's not in it so yeah I thought I saw Twelfth Night at the globe and it was just the most amazing experience and yeah it's as part of the audience it was an amazing experience so I can imagine being on stage must be an amazing Buzz yeah we all into the beauty of the

43:38 Globes it's sort of you're all there's no Lighting in this you're lit you're all lit by the same light so that you can see them they can see you it's a very very very kind of two-way thing so it's not so removed and you know you're always talking to the audience if there's a plane in the sky you refer to it is it you know it's brilliant if they're being rained on you're being rained on it's all it's brilliant all one so in 2003 February you went and recorded your first big finish so how did you come to work if we finish yeah through so through a series of again happy accents of me not pushing too far I think socially I in the early 2000s I met Clayton Hickman um and obviously he was the editor of doctor magazine um we were chatting and he was like oh I'm going to um um a convention in Manchester monopticon

44:24 and he was like oh you should come and I was just like okay and then I I went and when I arrived he was like oh you came I was like yeah you said I should submit and then I just sort of met lots of people and it was all good and then they were looking for a new assistant editor and I think because I'd socialize with people and had a nice time and you know had the experience of fox looking after Brands and stuff like that so basically I worked on Doctor Who magazine for six months and the acting work was that because this is 2003 so this is quite early I've only really been out of drama school a couple of years and I started to get age that get auditions and stuff so traveling from Tunbridge Wells just wasn't working so I only lasted not too magazine for six months um and then I think it's a bit of a leaving present some dark deal was done at the Fitzroy Tavern and I think they just chucked me a day on a Peter

45:11 Davidson audio which is Omega which I was just I was like this is this is amazing you know this is this again this is early on in my career but I was like I'm going to be in Doctor Who for a day and that's just that's just amazing I didn't have to try or push or you know I'm not very ambitious in that way like I'm determined if there's something I want but I'm not I don't I'm not looking to get places or make people do things or try and get in there I've never been like that um so it just landed in my lap and I was like how Jolly I'm in dog tea for a day so I really I thought I'm gonna make this count so I hired a voice tutor from my drama school there's a direct friend I know and I I just worked and worked and worked and worked on all

45:58 of that even though it's just a one day on audio but I was like I want this to be as good as I can make it at the time and I'd never recorded an audio before so I had to try and make that up as well um and just I had a great day you know Peter Davidson was there Hugo Myatt who was in a kids TV show called nightmare over here incredible he was in my first scene and and I was lucky because the character I played got to be possessed got to hear what his hand lasered off I had to play a Young rasalon you know be possessed by Omega all this kind of stuff so as an episode to be in it was a good one because I got to do loads of stuff and then I can't remember when it was but some months later I got a phone call from Gary saying hey we're looking for a new male companion for the eighth doctor Paul McGann would you like to do

46:44 it and you know I said yes please and then I put the phone down then I jumped down and jumped up and down on my bed for about 10 minutes going hooray hooray hooray um and then yeah that's what I got into so it was actually only three months later because because although your next story to come out was the greatest which wouldn't come out until the anniversary um in November you actually recorded all the next season with pomegranate from May in May and he would actually records of Grace until September so you actually hit you actually recorded all your stuffers in in the May 1st for that next season before was the greatest have been recorded after our first season I can never remember when we did it yes so so you recorded the Creator chromenon his natural history of fear which you must

47:30 talk about Twilight Kingdom and I think Faith stealer was at the four in that first no the face delic was the next one I know that okay Twilight that's right there's those four shirts so you weren't in that's right of course so there was four in that season um and they were they were all recorded in the May and then they would actually record the grace until September so they brought you back first so in terms of companion what what were you expecting what were you told yeah I didn't know much at all um I ah gosh I'm just trying to piece it together it's a game and made that phone call I think between then and recording Clayton Hickman had said oh you should

48:17 meet India and Paul was in a play in London it I think the Riverside in Hammersmith he was in a play with Susanna Harker and Clayton said let's have a let's go out until you can meet uh India so I met India and we had a great week we obviously we just clicked absolutely instantly it was sort of I know it's a bit obnoxious actors were always like oh we're best friends it's all great because anyone though so I mean I've met India and like she's like best buddy within five minutes and everyone she was around she's suddenly best buddies with yeah India Fisher walks into him or you hear her voice and you are in love with India Fisher it's just there's no option there's just no option um but we got on like really really well like we met at the tube station and by the time we were at the theater we were sort of arm in arm I remember the lights

49:03 going down on the play and I said to her like God even if I'm not in a play I get really nervous and she was like you freak and I was like we've known each other for five minutes and I was like this is gonna be fine and we met Paul I met Paul very very briefly briefly at the end but I don't think he knew that this was happening and we didn't really chat and then it was really just dry I think we got the scripts and then I was Gary drove us down it was me India and Ian Farrington and just drove us down and the only thing he said because we're not putting a voice effect on you on you I just want you to use your own voice that was the only Direction I had or asked for and so I just had this the words on the page to go from and then I was just chucked in the studio there was no big intro he just said oh you know I had my scripts walked in he's like oh Paul this

49:50 is Conrad but I uh um then Natural History fear I think we recorded I think did we record that one first I'm gonna have to ask you uh I don't know which one we recorded which order we recorded them in but uh you live within 12th of May yeah and the Creator Chrome run was either just before just after so it's important for me you are right yes you did yes so I walk into the studio with just I just said hello to Paul so you weren't even your companion you weren't even careers no that was my first uh that was my first day it was on natural history for a couple of days which was an amazing thing but it was like very hard to establish a sense of our dynamic or my companion because we were all playing millions of different parts but it was an amazing

50:36 hbm yeah it is actually let's quickly talk about the natural history of fear is um we're giving spoilers for that one all of you are playing several characters going over and over through what seems like generations of time and there's a reason behind it all which is all revealed at the very end but none of you actually are yourselves no um it is the most disturbing it's a great play and if you haven't yet people have ever listened to us highly recommend it it's really disturbing um what's going on there but yeah the issue there is of course your character's not your character you're playing several roles yeah um and yeah very powerfully so the first time you should get to play who you are is the creative Roman yeah

51:24 um at what stage did you realize you weren't human you're going to be an alien was it did Gary explain all that to you no I mean I knew I knew I wasn't going to be an alien he told me that and I had the script so I could see there was descriptions like oh you've got a oh he's got an exoskeleton oh he's like his eyes are like a cat's an oh he's changing color I had as much clue as anybody else I literally Gary said you you are an alien I want you to use your own voice and that is it and that's all he told me and that's all I asked for I mean I didn't I I didn't ask more questions which probably now I would have done and so I just had the script to go on so yeah I had Natural History to go and I was like I still I have no idea who I am from that um and then it was created the common and it was it was a very you know natural history is an amazing amazing play now while it was very disorientating to do

52:11 um I was aware it was something really incredible and Paul loved it he was so excited when that script turned up and then it was created the kraman which is a bit like going from caves of androzani to Twin dilemma doctor who does this to you sometimes um I was very excited it's better than that okay you know it's uh yeah it's it's it was a tricky one to start on you know it was um I was very glad to be in a actually I've got to say one more thing about um Natural History one vivid memory I have is someone had to come in and do a really difficult scene he had to come in really breathlessly and just ask loads of questions like millions and millions of questions like he was and we were talking over him it was really really difficult and we were also wondering God this dude how's he gonna do this and he did it because he walked in and he was

52:58 Sean Carlson and he was on his first day and we were all looking at him because there's the studio the setup in Bristol was quite odd it was like he went in Booth you were in Four Corners you're in the same room just in Four Corners with Gary sitting cross-legged on the floor and he came in and I remember when that scene came up me Paul India was like I figured how is he gonna do this he's gonna have to improvise all of these he can't it's not scripted how's he gonna do it and he just came in and did it and it was phenomenal and I remember Gary saying he was the find of the week and we we went to the pub after his we all got on with him but I just need to drop that in because Sean Carlson was still mates today and I've got all the time in the world for him but seeing him do that was that I know I'm learning about voice acting and I saw him and I was like I want to be him like him please you know talk to Sean you can go to that episode for people listening

53:44 yeah it's great Doctor Who the natural history of fear this is the voice of light City attention thank you welcome to your new workday today is Jubilee Day citizens May celebrate for one day without a rational punishment happiness through acceptance welcome to your Jubilee Day welcome to your Jubilee do you worship do you go to church do you believe in God how many gods are there what's his name what does he look

54:30 like perhaps he's a woman or perhaps he has appeared perhaps a bearded woman uh perhaps he's he's many many gods uh a whole Army of gods perhaps he's plotting to attack us now to destroy us a whole Army of God rampaging across a desert a plateau ridiculous to episode would God do that is God first does he love us does he hate us perhaps he's teasing us he's doing with his perhaps he's playing with us playing with our minds perhaps we're all just part of one big experiment perhaps which is twice perhaps wrong little toy figures that God is playing with them sometimes he fights off our heads sometimes you stamps on it so sometimes he throws his toys back in the club so he doesn't want to play with us anymore he doesn't want this anymore he wants to get rid of us

55:16 he wants to get rid of us just throw us all alive is juvenile

56:05 one day welcome to your Jubilee Day welcome to your Jubilee but yeah then it was quite increases common and like I was excited that it was uh it was Philip Martin so I was like well this has got the Ring Of Truth I've got I'll be con this is really nice to be able to say because I'm only able to say sort of promotional nice things about at the time so things in Doc T magazine and to be honest I'm also a doctor who fan and I've got a brain in my head and I know what a good Doctor Who story is like I know what Alaska docked his story is like so I'm not a huge fan of creed of the common as a story it's just not my kind of thing but it was where a lot of the clues my initial Clues from carers came about and you know some you know you know sometimes a part will leap off the page as they say he didn't lift like leap off the page at all there were a lot of

56:50 there was a lot of contradictory information or just information it was quite hard to pull together um he was a monk very religious but then also really hot-headed and anti-authority he was it came from sort of an agriculture there's a talk about him being a farmer and this stuff and someone else describes him as being sort of oh we consider him like royalty and there was a lot of you know he was kind of I I took some of the clue from the fact he changed color so I thought well that tells you he's more prey than Predator so that told me to sort of he's a bit on the back foot he's a bit gentle he's a bit weird he's been he's a bit unsure but he's quite vulnerable so I thought I know that I did try something once with a chameleon thing in that quite early on in in Creed the common way I thought

57:36 the doctor says something says a word and carers isn't familiar with it and he just repeats the word as in what and I thought I'll do it like Paul does I'll try and say it like Paul said it like it's like chameleon way like he's trying to do it and I think Paul he might have just been surprised at hearing someone do his voice I didn't think I don't know if he thought I was taking a piss or what but he just shot me this look and I thought I just panicked I was like I'm never doing that again I'm literally never doing it again and so I think I lost a bit of that and I just I think I've got as you can tell already like I've got very mixed feelings about it um because it was one of the most wonderful times of my life but also it was very tricky it was I I we the whole the era was getting very experimental it was very difficult the reception of it was we'll talk about

58:22 that was very difficult difficult and I sort of struggled a bit to try and fit in and I told defy anyone not to struggle to join Paul McGann and India Fisher who were such individually their voices are amazing their chemistry is I think one of the best chemistry it's like Sylvester and it's incredible and Gary was deliberately saying you know we've got a successful season under our belt we'll see a couple of Seasons under our belt we're going to just mix things up and from zagreus onwards it was like whatever you think you're gonna get we're gonna give you the opposite and it was like a very very challenging I was struggling I think to make that character fully work and and being part of that Dynamic is really key because it's I think the rationale was that Charlie and the doctor had one of the

59:09 first proper love stories of any doctor and companion and you can't really you know carry that on so let's bring in a third wheel sort of interrupt it and be a bit of a gooseberry and that's like a great idea but it's quite hard to be that person um to be the the scrappy do that's kind of you know you're a kid I hated Scrappy dude like no one would go away you don't want a third person so it was honestly I'm not sort of saying boohoo me but it was one of the challenges to come in as a third person and not only in the characters but also the actors sort of interrupt the flow a bit and India and I got on incredibly well and I think that's it it starts it just changes the dynamic you know Three's a Crowd a little bit so I'm Kenny Smith the big finish says that

59:54 I'm always too hard on myself and I'm always too hard on the character and my part in it so I've got to try and not do that so I'll put that aside so what I'm saying is I found it difficult but you know you learn and then you know scripts are good scripts are bad and and you find your own way let's talk about the the fan reaction then because I know personally speaking I love the experimental stuff I'm always into experimental I'm up for experimental yes I can think back to Creator the karma and go yeah that was a difficult listen compared to the Other Stories of the season but you know it always happens in Doctor Who you'll get something that's a little bit more difficult than than something else did what what was the what was the feedback you were getting at the time

1:00:40 from from fans was it a mix or was it was it was there more negative it was part of a whole tsunami of a reaction that started with zagreus I think because it's hot it's we've got to remember that back then that was it was the newest Doctor Who ever when you're walking to the studio you were aware that the brand newest Doctor Who is on the words on the pages in my bag and we haven't said them yet so there was a real sense of the newness of it and the anticipation especially as there hadn't been a TV 30th thing particularly so the weight I remember the expectations was massive and when they pulled that massive you to like you know that gear change on that I think that rattled a lot of people and I think that carried on you

1:01:26 know with the Divergent universe and then throw you know like you're gonna have Doctor Who with no Tardis no Daleks No Monsters no time and this lovely Dynamic you want we've now got we're now changing that so there was a lot of was it Gallifrey brace or Outpost Gallifrey which was first back in the day Outpost Gallifrey was first Outpost Gallery so I was already seeing and I was part of that pascular phrase so I was already I already saw the a lot of the fan opinion generally at the time and I was very much part of that I was associated with being that you know after zagreus there was that love YouTube hand at Handa and then we're into this new thing so I was just in the mix and so a lot of people criticized the whole thing and then a lot of people really criticized me the

1:02:13 character and also me the way I did it um and it was really rough it was brutal like I'd let you know I've done some

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