Tucker Confronts Ted Cruz on His Support for Regime Change in Iran

0:00 Senator, thank you very much for spending the time to have this conversation. It's good to be with you. So, you've come out for regime change in Iran as distinct just from taking out the nuclear sites. What does regime change look like in Iran? Somebody else in charge. How do you get there? Look, that ultimately has to be a popular uprising from the people. And it it's not a complicated question. Is America better off with a country that has a leader who hates us and want to kills, wants to kill us, or to have a country with a leader who likes us and wants to be friends with us and and definitely the latter is better, of course. And so that's not a complicated statement. Look, I I believe you look across the world when you have countries that have dictators that are viciously anti-America. Uh Venezuela, Maduro hates us. Would we be better off with Maduro

0:47 out of power? Absolutely. I I want our enemies out of power and I want our friends in power. That I could not agree more. The question is how do you get there? Of course, we've been trying to kill Maduro for quite some time. We have troops there as I don't know that we've been trying to kill Maduro. We have and um I think you know that and um I don't know that. Okay. Well, we as a statement of fact we have. So we do have massive sanctions. We tried to pressure him out of office. Yeah. I'm not aware of I'm just saying there's a lot of pressure coming from various parts of the US government on that government and it's still there. Yeah. Same the country of very ancestors, Cuba, you know, 1959, we've been working on that. Hasn't worked. So, it's it's I we both agree it's hard to do it. It absolutely is hard. And look, I think you're reasonable to ask how do we produce that? And and I think there's a

1:34 distinction between what your objective is and the means to get it. There are all sorts of things I would say we would be better off. We'd be better off in China without shei there. Should we invade China and topple she? Of course not. Better off with no national debt. You know, there are lots of things, but but it's good to say, all right, what are our objectives? And so with the Ayatollah in Iran saying you're for regime change, I I don't view as complicated. I mean, the the guy literally leads mobs chanting death to America. So, so that's not good. Um, definitely not good. Um, but the reason I think it's important to get a little more detailed about how that might happen is because there's military action in progress, which we're supporting. And the president has said clearly, including last night, that he is focused on eliminating the capacity of the Iranian government to produce

2:20 nuclear weapons. You are saying we need to use military force to affect regime change. I have not said that. Oh, I I must have No, no, I I have not not said that once. I I don't think we need to use military force to do regime change. I said I support it. I would like to see it happen. You asked me how should it happen? A popular uprising. What So what I've advocated for All right, let's step back a second. You and I, we've known each other a long time. I would say we agree on about 80% of the things on Earth for sure. And there are a lot of things and and we can get into the nitty-gritty of foreign policy as much as you want. There are a lot of things on which you and I agree not just a little bit but violently. I totally agree. Um I was rooting for you

3:05 in your last campaign for sure. Well, thank you. Look, you have been heroic on on the border. you've been one of the clearest and and best voices in the in the whole country on securing the border and and the absolute crisis we're facing and in Texas I see it and live it every day. um in CO. In fact, you may recall in the middle of the COVID lockdown, I was out walking my dog when the whole world was shut down and we were living in lunatic times and I called you and said, "Tucker, your nightly monologues are the single best thing on television." Like like I watched them like like an injection of crack. Okay, I'm mixing my metaphor because you don't inject crack, but but you get what I'm saying. try. No, I mean it was you were standing up and speaking like what the hell are we doing in a way

3:51 that we desperately desperately needed? And so whether it's securing the border, whether it's the insanity of COVID lockdowns and the vaccine mandates, uh whether it is the second amendment or the first amendment, you and I agree on a ton of stuff. The 20% where we disagree, I I do think is meaningful and and it's mostly in the foreign policy space. And and what I would say, if you'll allow me to get a little theoretical, and then I'll I'm happy to get specific. Yes. For a long time, people have perceived two different polls of Republican foreign policy. There have been interventionists, and those have been people like John McCain and and Lindsey Graham, George W. Bush. Uh and there

4:37 have been isolationists. And then the most prominent of those have been Ron Paul and Rand Paul and and there others. and and people perceive those are the two choices. You got to be one or the other. I've always thought both were wrong. I I don't agree with either one. Um the way I view my own foreign power. I'm I'm with you, by the way, for whatever it's worth. I I agree with you. I don't know who set up that binary, but there are lots of choices actually. I mean, people sort of naturally fall into I think they want to classify people and they're like, "Okay, you're one or the other and you got to be all or nothing." and and and the interventionists, it seems, have never seen a country they didn't want to invade. And that doesn't make any sense to me. And the isolationists, I think, don't take the threats to America seriously. And and I think that's naive and it doesn't work. And and so my view, I I consider myself

5:24 a third point on the triangle. And and what I describe that as is that I am a non-interventionist hawk, which which sounds a little weird, but but what do I mean by that? I mean the central touch point for US foreign policy and for any question of military intervention should be the vital national security interest of the United States. How does this make America safer? How does this protect Americans? If it does, we should be strong. And actually another way of conceiving what I'm saying, I'm speaking theoretically. But but Reagan referred to it as peace through strength. and and actually I think Donald Trump's foreign policy is very much what I'm describing a non-interventionist hawk where he

6:10 understands that and I think this is historically true the best way to avoid war is being strong that weakness and isolationism I think encourages war so going back to regime change where you started in Iran but just to make I I don't I think I disagree with anything you've said. So, we may not be that far apart really because you said that the single criterion for making decisions about America's foreign policy is America's national interest. Yes. That's it. Yeah. Which is also America first. That's another way of putting that as well. I think it's the definition of it. It's hardly breaking news. The US dollar has been gravely devalued by Washington money printing. You print money out of thin air and the currency becomes

6:57 weaker. You can purchase less with the same amount. The entire system is backed by nothing but the government's word. What is that worth? People around the world are beginning to ask. So, one of the results of this is that a lot of people want to invest in crypto. Many don't know where to start. That's where iTrust Capital comes in. Their platform makes the crypto game smarter, easier, safer, and you can understand it. With iTrust Capital, you buy and sell crypto inside a tax advantaged IRA. That means the same long-term tax benefits of a retirement account paired with the freedom to invest in digital assets. They also offer secure non-retirement accounts, use an airtight security system, and have real human beings, experts, on call if you ever need them. You just call up and you can talk to them in person. Creating account is very

7:43 simple. It takes just a few minutes. Click the link below or visit itrustc capital.com to start today. The question is, are we watching that now? So, I think we are and and from what you've said publicly, I think on Iran in particular, you and I disagree. And all right, let me contrast it when Obama was president. When Obama was president, you remember he talked about wanting to have military action against Syria. Mhm. And at the time, I tried to keep an open mind to it. I said, "Okay, let me listen to the commander-in-chief describe to me how this is in America's interest and what your plan is." and and Bashar Assad was a bad guy. He was killing his own citizens and and he had chemical weapons that were very dangerous. I could

8:30 conceive of a commander-in-chief laying out a plan for, okay, we're going to go in and say, "Grab the chemical weapons and leave." Like, I could see that I if there was a real threat to America and there was a plan to to prevent that, I could see supporting that. So, I wanted to hear what he had to say. And I listened both in classified briefings and and public questioning. And number one, their public defensive, it was incoherent. So So John Kerry said, "We're going to engage in an unbelievably small strike." I think that's a quote. I'm like, "Okay." And and to do what? At the time, there were nine major rebel Islamic groups in Syria. I'm like, "Okay, I agree. Bashar Assad's a bad guy. You topple him." And one of the nine other groups takes over. Seven of them were affiliated with

9:15 radical Islamic terrorism. You had al-Qaeda and al-Nusra. I'm like, wait, how is it better to have lunatics who hate us in charge? Assad's a bad guy, but I don't want worse guys in charge. Obama administration couldn't give an answer to that. And ultimately, when you press them, John Kerry in particular, I pressed and he would say, "Well, we need to defend international norms." Like, what the hell is an international norm? I don't know what it is, but I'm not interested in putting US servicemen and women in harm's way to defend one. Amen. So, I opposed this the Syria attack and and and opposed it vocally. And it was interesting. Rand and I agreed. Rand's a friend of mine, but we we agreed with that position for different reasons. What I was asking is is I think the question we should ask, how does this

10:02 make America safer? The Obama administration couldn't give me an answer, so I posed it. I think Iran is very different. Let me ask what you think of how Syria wound up because Bashar Assad now lives in Moscow. Yeah. He was taken out by our allies. Um and he's been replaced by a radical Islamist who was affiliated with ISIS. So is that a win or no? Unclear. Look, Syria is a mess. So I've consistently opposed. But we had a secular leader in a religious and ethnically diverse country. Now we have a religious extremist, Islamic religious extremist who's overseen the purge of of Christians and Alawites. Is that better? That doesn't seem Well, look, one of the things you said is you said he was taken out by our allies. I don't think that's right. Israel didn't take Assad out. What happened? And I'll tell you, what about Turkey? Turkey

10:49 didn't take him out. So, it was interesting. I had a long How did Assad get kicked out? Yeah. Um when when Netanyahu was in DC a couple of months ago, he and I sat down for a couple of hours. He's a good friend of mine and and we talked actually about Syria. It was he made an interesting point that I've not heard anywhere else in that he said he believes what toppled Assad was when Israel took out Nazallah. Nazallah was the head of Hezbollah and they took him out and he and and he made an interesting point. They said it's fascinating how a charismatic leader and and BB said look Nazala was a very effective terrorist leader and when they took him out that power base was supporting Assad and that ultimately in

11:34 BB's analysis removed the support for from Assad and and and toppled him but they weren't trying to take out Assad. my view now I don't know I so you don't think that and I I don't it is very confusing and I I don't know that anyone really knows all the details but you don't think that Israel or Turkey our NATO ally Turkey played any role in toppling Assad I I don't know I don't know that they did look look my understanding of that they clearly took out Nazalla and Hezbollah they've decimated Hezbollah but Hezbollah is waging war on them so so decimating Hezbollah was very good for Israel and very good for for America too I mean Hezbollah hated us Um, I I would put Assad in the category of an unintended consequence. And whether it's good or bad,

12:21 I don't know. I I think time will tell. For the United States. Yeah. For the United States. I think time will tell. The new leadership there. You're right to be concerned. I I I Let me step back and let's talk regime change generally. I I mentioned Syria. I I also oppose the Iraq war. I think the Iraq war was a serious mistake. And and we have a pattern and going back to this binary of the interventionist and and the isolationists. The interventionists advocate over and over again. There's a bad guy. There's a dictator who's who's doing bad things to his people and they say, "Let's go topple them." And you have dictators in the Middle East who are killing radical Islamic terrorists. We come in and topple them. The radical Islamic terrorists take over and they start killing Americans. And my view, how the

13:07 heck does that help us? Like Saddam Hussein was a horrible human being. He murdered and tortured people. I unequivocally bad guy, but it got much worse after we toppled him. And you ended up having ISIS rise up. I mean, that was the cause of ISIS was toppling Saddam Hussein. Same thing in in in Libya. You had Gaddafi, another horrible guy that that under Obama, we toppled him and you ended up having radical Islamic warlords taking over. And and so the and it's the question I asked in Syria. Okay. Well, what's the plan? And and and how is this good or bad for the United States? And and so I don't think with Iran, I I view Iran as very different from Iraq. But up to that point, you say we disagree. I I don't

13:53 hear really anything. I'm not quite sure what happened in Syria, but I I don't know. So, right. But other than that, I don't hear anything I disagree with at all. Yeah. Sounds like we're in a complete agreement. I wonder though, is there a successful regime change that the United States supported that you're aware of in the last 100 years? Uh, sure. Uh, defeating the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union collapsing, winning the Cold War, that that was the most consequential step for US national security interests of our lifetimes. Okay. And so you would classify that as a regime change that we affected? Absolutely. Okay. Uh, and look, you you and I are are in my office. We're sitting uh next to a painting of of Reagan in front of the Brandenburgg Gate and and up top uh are

14:40 the words tear down this wall uh in German in the style of the graffiti, right? And I think those are the most important words any leader has said in modern times. And and if if you look at how Reagan waged the Cold War and and Reagan is very much my model for how to I actually think how Reagan took on the Soviet Union is exactly how we should take on China. Now starting from the point, look, Reagan was not an interventionist. In 8 years, the biggest country Reagan ever invaded was Grenada. He was very reluctant to use US military force. He didn't respond after the 83 barracks bombings. You're right. He he he he made the judgment that the risk exceeded the benefits and and that's a very rational decision to make and and it's reflected Trump has made those same

15:26 decisions where he is willing to use military force but but he very much asks okay is this good or bad for America? Does this endanger US servicemen and women or not? And one of the points about the Cold War, look, nobody in their right mind wanted a shooting war between America and the Soviet Union. The two biggest nuclear powers on Earth firing bullets at each other is really unhealthy for human beings. Same thing is true with China. Nobody with any sense says, "Hey, let's go to war with China." That that's really dumb and a whole lot of people could die. But the Cold War showed we've got lots of tools short of send in the Marines to fight against a regime. And one of the

16:11 most important tools is the bully pulpit. And so when I say I support regime change, I actually think just simply laying out what the Ayatollah does. And so I spend a lot of time I speak to Iranian dissident groups. I speak out against human rights abuses. I think shining a light on the depravity of leaders is a really powerful tool that America has. Should it should we limit our activity to that? It it depends again the because the US government pays opposition groups, militarized opposition groups in Iran to overthrow the government. We've done that in a lot of different places as you know. I'm not I'm not saying it's bad, but that's very different from what you're describing. And you're saying we're making a moral case as we did for seven years with the

16:57 Soviets. Our system works, yours doesn't. Yeah. Um and I think we made a credible case for that. And we beat them over 70 years economically and that was a huge part of it. Right. I I think everyone would agree that was the main part of it. We didn't beat them in Vietnam, North Korea. The main part of it, but it was tied to a military buildup. So I think it was two things. It was one the clarity. So Reagan came in and he described the Soviet Union as an evil empire, right? and all of the intelligences, all the media, they're like, "What a horrible thing to say. You can't say that." Reagan uh went to the United Kingdom and he said, "Marxism, Leninism will end up on the ash heap of history." People were horrified. They asked him, "All right, what's what's your strategy in the Cold War?" He said, "Very simple.

17:43 We win, they lose." And that was all viewed as as sort of a Philistine simplicity. And I think it was exactly right. and laying that out speaking. Do you know the backstory behind the the Berlin Wall speech? Yeah, I do. Yes. You probably know Peter Robinson who speech writer. Yes. So, three times the State Department deleted those words from that speech and three times Reagan wrote it back and the State Department argued. They said, "Mr. President, you can't say this. This is too bicost. This is too provocative." And my favorite, they said, "This is too unrealistic. the Berlin Wall will stand till the end of time. And Reagan said, "Look, this is the whole point of the speech." And less than three years after Reagan gave that

18:30 speech, the Berlin Wall was torn to the ground. And it wasn't knocked down by American army tanks. We didn't shoot missiles at it. It was shining truth and light that tore it down. It was also rebuilding the American military. It was what was then pjoratively called Star Wars where the Soviet Union their economy couldn't match our military buildup and it bankrupted them. That's an example of peace through strength. I wonder I mean is there anybody who was alive in 1989 who wouldn't trade that America for the one we live in now? There's not one person I don't think. Oh, sure. Uh well, but I mean just the basic metrics, debt, suicide rate, life expectancy, it was I wonder why after that victory, America didn't thrive in

19:16 the way that we thought that it would, that I thought that it would. My family was involved in that. I mean, I were very focused on it in my house like we won. And I I wonder two things. Why didn't the United States kind of declare victory and make some sort of uh arrangement with Russia that allowed like mutual prosperity rather than continuing a cold war? And second, I wonder why the United States didn't get a lot better. Like why don't we have better infrastructure? Why don't we have fewer homeless? Why do we have all these drugs? Like if we won, why does our country look like this? I walked across from Union Station this morning, as you do, I'm sure, every day, and all these people lying in the street and sleeping outside. It's like, what is that? We're sorry to say it, but this is not a very safe country. walk through Oakland or Philadelphia. Yeah, good luck. So, most people when they think about this want to carry a firearm and a lot of us do.

20:02 The problem is there can be massive consequences for that. Ask Kyle Writtenhouse. Kyle Writtenhouse got off in the end, but he was innocent from the first moment. It was obvious on on video and he was facing life in prison anyway. That's what the anti-gun movement will do. They'll throw you in prison for defending yourself with a firearm. And that's why a lot of Americans are turning to burna. It's a proudly American company. Burna makes self-defense launchers that hundreds of law enforcement departments trust. They've sold over 600,000 pistols, mostly to private citizens who refuse to be empty-handed. These pistols, and I have one, fire rock-hard kinetic rounds or tear gas rounds and pepper projectiles, and they stop a threat from up to 60 ft away. There are no background checks. There no waiting periods. Burn can ship it directly to

20:48 your door. You can't be arrested for defending yourself with a burner pistol. Visit burnab yrna.com or your local sportsman's warehouse to get yours today. Burna.com. Look, there's no doubt there are really dangerous forces in our society. Some of it is politics and some of it is culture. And one of the mistakes people make in politics is thinking everything is politics. So the political answer which I happen to believe is is we went much further down the road of liberalism. You look at Bill Clinton who inherited the peace dividend of the cold war being over and and moved us more to the left and then Obama accelerated it a lot. And so there are lots of I agree bad economic policies, but I also think they're cultural things. Um you know the

21:34 the the loss I agree with all of I know what you're going to say and I agree 100%. I bet there's not one word that I would disagree with. All I'm saying is like I think it's important to step back and ask but I actually think Russia has very little to do with it. So well that's kind of the point that I'm trying to make which is like we're all sort of focused on beating our adversaries abroad but what is victory worth if our own country becomes what it is now and maybe we're spending a little too much time focused abroad and not enough time focused on the people sleeping outside Union Station. So look I absolutely think we need to focus at home emphatically and we need to focus on prosperity. We need to focus on reducing the debt, reducing spending, empowering people, low taxes, small businesses, American free enterprise. It's the most powerful force for fighting poverty the

22:20 world has ever seen. I'm a thousand% there. I also recognize it is a dangerous world and and part of the responsibility of leaders, part of President Trump's responsibility is to keep America safe. Let's go back to where we started. You've been in the district a long time in DC. So have I. And the city's way more dangerous. And Congress runs this city. No. No. It's a complete crappole. So I'm saying like the d No Iranian's ever going to kill me. But I could get carjacked here. And I just don't understand how the Congress could run this city and focus on the dangers of Iran when the city is like garbage. It's garbage. But but Congress doesn't run the city. They We could Congress does run the city. It's in the Constitution. It's in the Constitution. But they but they've given home rule. So it's a Democrat mayor back. You control the Congress. I'd vote for it. But but

23:06 but it is a question of math. Okay. But I'm just saying like why how can people ignore it's like if my own kids are drug addicts but I'm focused on my neighbors kids, it's like I'm neglecting my own kids. And there's a sense in which the Congress is neglecting the country that elected them in favor of this relentless focus on other people's problems. That's the way it feels as an American. Look, there are lots of problems in America that we need to fix. Why is is DC a pit? because you have a mayor and a Democrat city council that won't let police officers arrest bad guys. And in every city you see across the country, whether it's New York, whether it's Chicago, whether it's LA, whether it's San Francisco, if you have Democrats, we see the LA riots where they won't let people be arrested. All right, then why not

23:51 work in regime change here? Why not use the bully? What do you think I do every day and you see a Republican senator stand up and say, "I just walked to work this morning over people dying of drugs. We're going to shut this place down unless they fix it." There's they're mad about Putin. Like what did Putin do to Washington? Nothing. Look, in terms of regime change, let's let's talk this week. The the the the riots in LA. I've made very clear that the cause of those riots are Gavin Newsome and Karen Bass. And when you elect communists who hate America, who stop law enforcement from arresting criminals, you get what you get on the street. Amen. I agree. My in-laws are Californians and and they're wonderful people that Heidi grew up on the central coast of California. And I remember I was texting with with my my mother-in-law and and I think I sent her a video of of criminals going to a store

24:39 and just looting in California and and her response she said something like, "Well, this is this is really terrible. It's I I wish we could. It's a shame we can't do anything about this." Said, "Yes, you can go in and arrest them. Throw their butts in jail. Put them in handcuffs. It sucks." Exactly. And and so we know how to fix these things. and and DC is is I think DC voted if I remember right 92% Democrat. Um Democrat policies don't work and they destroy every community that they are in charge of. They Why don't Republicans assert their constitutional authority over the city? I don't they control the Congress? Yes, I'd be all for it. Who's against it? Do you think uh Susan Collins is really vocally against it? Uh so on questions of home rule, so for example,

25:25 let's take an issue you and I care a lot about the COVID lockdowns. I had a couple of years ago in the middle of them. Uh DC was proposing the DC school district was proposing throwing out of school any child that was not vaccinated. And at the time, if I remember correctly, it was something like 40% of the African-American students in DC were not vaccinated. So we're talking about literally throwing out 40% of the kids at public school. And so I had a vote on the Senate floor to say look they can't throw kids out of school for this and we ended up having a big argument and part of the argument was home rule where there was and Susan was the most vocal Republican that's like no no we have to let DC run and I'm like why constitution gives us the power to do it and it ended up by the way every single Democrat all of them voted

26:12 in favor of the DC public schools being able to throw out 40% of the black kids from school and they said look you throw a kid out of school. You got a 14, 15 year old boy. You throw him out of school. You know what's going to happen next. He's going to join a gang. He's going to engage in crimes. He's going to engage in drugs. He could be dead within 5 years if that kid doesn't get an education. Or the Democrats were more than happy to say we don't care right now. Our religion is get get the vaccine or or to hell with you. But c can you see I mean I again once again I couldn't agree with you more but can you feel the frustration of people including your voters ever you know every American at the emphasis on foreign countries and the threat we supposedly face a lot of which is fake obviously um over over the

26:59 kind of slowly unfolding tragedy of what's happening to our country the the the dollar spent the aid packages to Ukraine to pay the retirement of civil servants in a country that we have nothing to do with the endless support for Israel very expensive when people are literally buying groceries on credit in the United States. Can you feel like it's nothing against Ukraine or Israel? All right, let's stop. You said the support for Israel very expensive. How much support do we give to Israel? Well, you tell me. You vote for it. Yeah, it's about three billion a year is the military assistance. Is that the only assistance? Yeah, we we just have military assistance. Israel does not have additional assistance. There's there's an MOU, a memorandum of understanding, and it's three billion a year. So, what is it costing to support the bombing campaign to protect Israel

27:46 right now um from Iran? So, I don't know right now, but I'll tell you this. Let's go back to the touchstone on foreign policy, American interest. Our support, our military support for Israel is massively in America's national security, and it benefits us enormously. Well, before we can before we can make independent judgments about whether or not that's true, and I'm certainly open to it, I think we need to know what it costs. So, what's the annual cost of defending Israel? Do you know three billion a year? Like, that's the aid. But I mean, the U the cost of the weapons, for example, the cost of US personnel there, the cost of moving ships to the region, which we're doing right now, the cost of moving tankers region, all of that. Do we know what the cost is? So, look, the last week, I don't know. and and there's some lag when the administration under the

28:31 Constitution, the commander-in-chief has control of the armed forces and so President Trump has made some decisions that we'll know the cost over time, but I don't know the last week that that I I don't have visibility on that. The annual cost is 3 billion. That's that's it's a 10-year memorandum of understanding, and that's that's the principal driver of the cost. But let me make a point. We get massive benefits from Israel. Israel shares the MSAD is one of the best intelligence sources on the planet. The enemies of Israel, the people who hate Israel, they all hate us. It It's almost a perfect overlap. And so if we tried to recreate, if we're just trying to defend America, we tried to recreate the national security benefits of our alliance with Israel, it would cost, I don't know, 30 billion,

29:17 300 billion. So So can you elaborate? I mean, again, I'm I'm going into this as someone who's always liked Israel, um, and still does, but I also think at this point, given where we are, it's fair to ask rational questions about what the benefits are. Good. Um, so does Msad share all of its intelligence with us? Oh, probably not, but they share a lot. Um, we don't share all of our intelligence with them, but we share a lot. It's a close alliance. Do they spy domestically in the United States? Oh, they probably do and we do as well and and friends and allies spy on each other and and I assume I assume all of our allies spy on us. That that's okay with you. You know what? One of the things about being a conservative is that you're not naive and utopian. You you don't think humans are all part of the reason socialism doesn't work is is the the the mantra from each according

30:03 to his abilities to each according to his needs doesn't work. As a conservative, I assume people act in their rational self-interest. Why conservative to pay people to spy on you? It's conservative to recognize that human beings act to their own self-interest and every one of our friends spies on us. And I'm not Do you like it? That's my question. I'm not asking whether they have motive to do it. Of course they do. I understand that and I not mad at them and you're an American lawmaker. So I just want to know Hold on. I want to know your attitude. You said that your guiding principle, in fact, the only principle, the only criterion I said guiding, the the overwhelming, I wouldn't say only. Is is it in America's interest, is it in America's interest for Israel to spy on us, including on the president? Um, it is in America's interest to be closely

30:48 allied with Israel because we get huge benefits for it. and you want to want to see the clear. But but I just want to stop on the swing for a second that it it takes place as you know um and including on the president of the United States and several presidents and I just want to know if that's okay and why is it okay? Wouldn't an American lawmaker say to a client state you're not allowed to spy on us. I'm sorry. I know why you want to. I'm not mad at you, but you're not allowed to. And I don't care for it. I don't want to be spied on by you. Is that It's kind of weird not to say that, but you don't seem able to say that. Sure. I would say don't spy on us. They're going to anyway. And by the way, the Brits are, the Canadians are like, I don't think Well, I'm not for that at all. I think it's disgusting, but we don't actually pay their, you know, we're not their most meaningful sponsor.

31:34 We're not sort of paying for the operations of the Brit. So, I got to say, and this is it, it's weird. We're talking about isolation. It's the obsession with Israel. Why is Israel Oh, I don't think I'm obsessed with Israel. Okay. But I think a lot of people are. And like the question, Israel spies on us. Well, so does every other country. Why are you mad at Israel? I guess. Oh, no. No, I'm I'm hardly the one who's I've never taken money from the Israel lobby. Have you taken money from the Israel from Apac? So Apac raises a lot of money for me, but it's actually a misnomer because the pe people who raise money are individuals. So it's not the pack itself, but they're individual members who believe in the American Israeli uh friendship. A pack of foreign lobby. No, it's an American lobby. It's the Apac stands for the America Israeli political action. What does it lobby

32:19 for? So to be honest, not a whole lot effectively. Listen, I came into to Congress 13 years ago with the stated intention of being the leading defender of Israel in the United States Senate. I've worked every day to do that. Apac a lot of times Apac I wish were much more effective. Like there folks on on the finger swamp of terrified of Apac and Apac. I'm not terrified of Apac at all. I'm you're the one who seems a little uncomfortable when I'm asking. No, not uncomfortable at all. I'm just asking what Apac does. My understanding having known a lot of people is that it lobbies on behalf of the Israeli government. Oh, okay. America has thousands of colleges and

33:04 universities and a lot of them unfortunately are basically just scams. It's one of those things nobody really wants to talk about, but everybody on some level knows that it's true. What's an impressive college in 2025? There aren't many at all. Hillsdale is one of them. It is the exception. They cut straight through the woke garbage. They give their students a real education, an actual education. Meet a Hillsdale student, and ask yourself, "Is this the best educated 22-year-old I've met in a long time?" Yeah, cuz they don't have propaganda in their education. Just the truth, facts, history, English, math. If you think it sounds good, cuz it is good, think of this. Hillsdale is offering over 40 free online courses you can enroll in today. There's no catch at all. You don't have to pay anything. Not going to hit you up for anything. It's free. You can learn about the Constitution, the Bible, the basis of

33:49 Western civilization, Rome's rise and fall, early Christian church, things that actually matter. Not one dime free. They have a new class called Understanding Capitalism that teaches Americans basic economic ideas, describes our own system, a system that is falling apart. A lot of people want you to hate, but for 250 years has been the best and most productive in the world. you'll understand the basis of our economy from founding till president. Hillsdale not afraid to preach the message our country has forgotten which is freedom is good Christianity is good markets are good and they make this country better by raising well educated students we endorse this as a college hater I love Hillsdale go to tuckerforhillsdale.com

34:37 to sign up for understanding capitalism today the course understanding capitalism zero cost just the truth that's tuckerforhillsdale.com to enroll for free when When was the last time Apac took a position that deviated from Prime Minister Netanyahu? All the time. Okay, let me go back and give a little history. If you want to do a deep dive on Apac, we I don't I want to do a shallow dive that gets No, no, no. I want I want to get to the core question. Apac is lobbying for a foreign government and I don't it's not it's lobbying for the United States. It is lobbying for a strong USIsraeli relationship. Okay. And and so it's not has nothing to do with the foreign government. It it wants America and Israel to be closely allied. Okay. But it's lobbying

35:23 on behalf of the interests of another country. So that's not true at all. And and if that's not true. No. And how much contact do you think Apac leaders have with the government of Israel? No idea. I imagine some I think the government of Israel is often frustrated with Apac. That's not nearly strong enough. Do you think there's any coordination between the government of Israel and APEC? Do they talk? Sure. If you're lobbying for more US Mexico trade, would you talk to people in the US and Mexico and the government? Sure. Like, like if So, I'm not mad about that. There are million countries that lobby Washington. I like a lot of those countries, including Okay, but APEC or Americans? Hold on. There are tons of Americans who lobby on behalf of foreign governments. I know them. I'm related to some of them. I know how it works. I'm from here. So, my question is not, is it outrageous that foreign governments lobby the United

36:09 States? They all do, okay? Including Israel. My only question is why don't we admit that is what's happening. You're denying it, but it's true. And why aren't they saying why aren't they registered as a foreign lobby? Because they're not. They're not a foreign lobby. No, they're not. And and this is there's a fever swamp. Look, it's not a fever swamp. These are very reasonable questions. And you've accused me of being obsessed with Israel, which I'm not. I actually haven't. I've said feverish about it, which I'm not at all. I'm just I find it it's a very tender spot when you ask it. And I don't know why. So Tucker, all right, let's go back. I was first elected to the Senate in 2012. I came in in Obama's second term, and I actually saw Apac be badly wounded

36:54 in a way they never came back from. And and the second term is when Obama did the Iran nuclear deal. And and the Iran nuclear deal, I think, was catastrophic. And Apac went all in lobbying against it. Yeah. And they failed. And and I was the leading opponent of the Iran nuclear deal. Oh, I know. They definitely failed. Yes, they failed. And what happened? The Obama White House told every Democrat. When I got here, there used to be real bipartisan support for Israel. That has largely disappeared. And it's the Obama nuclear deal that caused it because the Obama White House told every Democrat, pick, you either stand with Israel or you're a Democrat and you stand with the Obama White House. that almost every single Democrat member of Congress said, "I'm a Democrat first. To hell with Israel." And then I

37:39 watched as Apac, every one of those Democrats got reelected and Apac did nothing about it. And and it dramatically reduced Apac's influence. It would be and and by the way I told Apac I said look the analogy if the NRA was supporting a bunch of politicians and cared about the Second Amendment and you had politicians that vote to confiscate people's guns and the NRA turned around and raised money for the people who voted to confiscate guns. You know what? No one would ever care what they said again. So you're making the case that Apac is not as powerful as people say it is. And I completely agree with you. I've I've watched that and I'm not I I'm not making the case that Apac is all powerful and they're running everything and putting Floyd in the water. I'm not making that case at all cuz that's not true. I'm only trying to get to the question of what APAC is and I don't think you're being straightforward about

38:25 it. Apac is lobbying on behalf of the interests of a foreign country and they're not registered and you're saying no that's not true. You're saying that they don't coordinate with the Israeli government. I coordinate they do they talk with them? I don't know what they do. I can tell. But why don't you care? Isn't it meaningful if a foreign government Hey, I talk with with with Israel all the time. I've talked of course of course countries all the time. But the law is and a lot of people have been prosecuted under this law that if you are lobbying on behalf of foreign government, you must register. That's it. It's really simple. And I don't know why if I'm working for Malaysia or Qatar or Belgium and I'm working on behalf of its government's interest through a group of Americans who are representing the friendship between those two nations, I have to register under the Foreign Agent Registration Act. And if I don't, I can go to jail. People have

39:10 gone to jail, including people I know. So I don't understand why we don't just be honest and say they're lobbying on behalf of foreign government. They're coordinating with the government. You know that that's true. That is not only not true. That is false. They're not coordinating with the Isra government. Do you do do you know how Apac raises money? What? For for elected officials like what they do like what the actual mechanics is. Yeah. I mean they go to people who are sympathetic to Israel and raise money and then send it to candidates who agree with them. So, so what they'll do is, so in my last election, Apac endorsed me and they'll host a fundraiser and they'll host a fundraiser in Dallas or Houston or Atlanta or New York or LA and they'll do a fundraiser and they'll get someone who will host it and it's usually a business owner, lawyer, doctor, someone who host it and you'll get typically at an APAC fundraiser uh 30 40 50 maybe a 100

39:58 people who live in that city, right? uh who care about a strong US-Israel relationship and and if they have, you know, 50 people, each of them writes a $1,000 check and you raise $50,000. I've been to an apex fundraiser. I know what it looks like. But but that is not and by the way, there's no representative of the Israeli government there. You have when you're in Dallas, you're meeting false and silly conversation. I know all this. I know all this. The question is, is are Apex goals shaped by the goals of the Israeli government to any extent? Okay, that's a really simple lobbying on behalf of it's a simple question. Is ap are apex goals shaped by the goals of the Israeli government? And I'm just going to ask you a question straight forwardly. And if you say no, I think we both know that's not true. Are they shaped by is that are they coordinating with the Israeli government? Are they

40:44 talking directing them? What are you want to talk about? FAR, the law on lobbying on behalf of someone. It is I hire you and you lobby on behalf of me. I direct you. Does Israel direct APEC? No, they are not lobbying on behalf of them. Do they care about them? Yes. But do you think that it's just interesting because what you're now describing in a very defensive way, I will say, is foreign influence over our politics. No. And you began and it's so transparently obvious to everybody. I don't know why you would be embarrassed of it. You've said that you are sincerely for Israel. I believe you. I don't think you have some weird agenda. You seem to by the way, Tucker, it's a very weird thing. The obsession with Israel when we're talking about foreign countries obsession. You're not talking about

41:30 Chinese. You're not talking about Japanese. You're not talking about the Brits. You're not talking about the French. The question, what about the Jews? What about the Jews? I'm an anti-semite now. Senator, you're asking the question, Tucker. You're asking why are the Jews controlling our foreign policy? That's what you just hardly saying that. And I have That is exactly what you just said. Well, actually, I can speak for myself and tell you what I am saying. Good on behalf not simply of myself, but on of my many Jewish friends who would have the same questions, which is to what extent, and I it's interesting you're trying to derail my questions by calling me an anti-semite, which you are. I did not. Of course you are. And and rather than be honorable enough to say it right to my face, you are in a sleazy feline way implying it or just asking questions about the Jews. I'm not asking questions about the Jews. I have This is nothing to do with Jews or Judaism. It has to do with a foreign

42:16 government. Israel controlling our foreign policy. That's not about the Jews. You said I'm asking. And by the way, you're the one that just called me, I think, a sleazy feline. So, let let's be clear. Sleazy to imply that I'm an anti-semite, which you just did. No, I just said, why is that the only question you're asking? You answer it. Give me another reason. If you're not an anti-semite, give me another reason why the obsession is Israel. I I am in no sense obsessed with Israel. We are on the brink of war with Iran. And so, these are valid questions. But you're not. If I can finish, you asked me why I'm obsessed with Israel. 3 minutes after telling me that when you first ran for Congress, you elucidated one of your main goals, which is to defend Israel. And I'm the one who's obsessed with Israel. I don't see a lawmaker's job as defending the interest of a foreign

43:02 government, period. Any government, including the ones that my ancestors come from. So that's my position. That does not make me an anti-semite. And shame on you for suggesting otherwise. And I mean that. And that's low. And you know it's low. So, why don't you just answer my questions in a straightforward, rational way? You certainly have the IQ to do it. Shame on you is is cute, by the way, Tucker. It is. It's not cute. I'm offended. You're I'm obsessed with the Jews. You just told me. You just called me a sleazy feline. It is sleazy to imply that I'm an anti-semite for asking questions about how my government is. You want to count how many questions you asked about what about the Jews, what about Israel, what about you never asked about the Jews? I I have This has nothing to do with the Jews, whatever that means. This has to do with a foreign government. And once again, shame on you for conflating the two. They have nothing to do with

43:48 each other. I'm talking about the influence. Israel and Jews have nothing to do with each other. All Jews are an attack on all Jews, which I am not nor would I ever be undertaking. Now, I'm not attacking anybody. By the way, that's that's who who Iran wants to kill is all the Jews and all the Americans. And I'm totally opposed to that. Okay. But now because except decisions need to be made. We can talk about those decisions and I plan to but I just want to get a sense of whether you think having described yourself as an America first person whose only criterion for judgment on foreign policy is America's national interest to what extent you're influenced by a foreign government which gives you a lot of money through its lobby and you're claiming this has nothing to do with the foreign government. They're not coordinating. Yes, they're spying on us but doesn't bother you. And I'm sort of wondering like what is this? This is the one of

44:33 the weirdest conversations I've ever had. I'll tell you what and I'll answer any question you like but let's try to you going to call me an anti-semite again or no? Let's try to ratchet down the temperature a little bit. You're the one who went to motive. I'm asking honest questions. I just asking questions. Yes, that's it. That is what I'm doing. Let's try to ratchet down the temperature a little bit. Picture the house of your dreams. Maybe it's got an outdoor pool, a huge front porch, an inviting fireplace for a cold winter's night. No matter what you prefer, there's little doubt that an American flag waving out front enhances the whole thing. What better way to welcome your guests than with a flag outside your home? But wait, there's a problem. The American flags you're likely to buy at some big stores were made in China. An American flag made in China. Come on.

45:19 Pure Talk, America's wireless company, believes every American deserves an American flag that was made in America. And that's why they're determined to give an Allegiance flag, the highest quality American flag, to a thousand veterans in time for summer. Pure Talk is using a portion of this month's sales to honor Flag Day and provide these American flags to American veterans. With plans from just 25 bucks a month for limited talk, text, plenty of data, you can enjoy America's most dependable 5G network while cutting your cell phone bill in half. For real. Go to purealk.com/talker to support veterans and to switch to America's company, Wireless from Pure Talk. And did you ever see an Eddie Murphy movie called The Distinguished Gentleman? No. It's a great movie. It's

46:05 actually a fun comedy uh about politics. And Eddie Murphy in the movie is a con man who gets elected to Congress. And he's literally a con man who the congressman dies. He has the same name. And so he runs and they get elected. And there's a there's a scene in the movie where where Eddie Murphy is a freshman member of the of Congress and he's sitting down with a sleazy lobbyist and uh he's asking the lobbyist, "All right, what should my positions be on I think they were talking about power plants and and uh electrical transmission lines and and the lobbyist like, well, what do you believe?" And Eddie Murphy is the comment said, "I don't care. Whatever gets me the most money, I'll do whatever gets me the most money." And the lobbyist says, "No, no, pick a side. Doesn't matter what you pick. If you pick one side, we'll go shake down everyone who supports that size and they'll give you money. If you pick the other side, that's fine. We'll just go

46:50 to the other side and shake down that. That's a little bit the way it works. And and you often get get leftists in the media who say, for example, if you support the Second Amendment, as you do and I do, well, you're just bought bought and paid for by the NRA. And that actually is backwards. I believe in the Second Amendment because I believe in the Constitution. Now, am I proud that the NRA supports me? Sure. Because people who care about the Second Amendment want to support leaders who fight for it. But it gets it backward. Look, Apac, when I ran for the Senate, Apac didn't support me. I supported Israel before they supported me. I'm I'm happy to have their support because they share my objective. No, but you're missing I'm not suggesting that you're bought and paid for. I'm not saying that I want to go back. I want to go back and take the transcript because you just said a minute ago, are you I'm slightly paraphrasing, but are you are you

47:37 lobbying for a foreign government because they pay you a lot of money? That's basically what you said. So, you are suggesting that. Let me let me just be clear about what I think. Your views seem totally sincere. Yes. You take money from people who agree with you. Yeah, I believe that. I'm only trying to take money from people who disagree with me. I'm only trying to get to the question of to what extent is the US government influenced by other governments? And it's a lot. It's hardly just Israel. It's hardly just Israel. I don't think Israel is the main one. There are lots of governments. China is a massive influence on this city and it's a huge as you know. I couldn't agree more. And there are lots of other the UK which is a truly sinister place in my opinion as a ethnic Brit. I can say I think it's that's my view. You maybe you disagree. I think they're on the wrong path. I I I love without their government without even getting into

48:23 that. I'm just saying I don't think Israel is the only one but it's the only one where you're instantly called an anti-semite for asking questions. And it's also the only government that no one will ever criticize. And I find criticize Israel every minute of every day. like the only government that people will not criticize. Rashida Talib just tweeted out calling Benjamin Netanyahu a war criminal. Um Talib, you said no one will criticize. No, I'm talking about Republicans that I would vote for, including you. And I'm saying, you know, whatever. I I don't even like talking about Israel. What I care about, I never do because it's not worth being called anti-semites from APAC recipients. But now we are on the verge of joining a war and I just want to be clear about

49:09 why we're doing this. All right. So, and and let's get into Iran momentarily, but but you suggested it was a strange thing that I said a minute ago that when I came into the Senate, I resolved that I was going to be the leading defender of Israel. And what you didn't ask is why. So, let me tell you why. No, you said I was obsessed with Israel. And you had just told me that like your driving motive to get to the Senate was to defend Israel. I don't think I'm the one who's obsessed with Israel. Okay. So, Tucker, words matter. Uh-huh. The And you know that I said I resolved to be the leading defender of Israel and you said your driving motive, the reason you're in the Senate. You want to be the leading defender of Israel. I would think if I ran for Senate, I'd be like, there are people dying of drugs on the street. My driving motive is to fight for Texas and America and to fight for

49:54 jobs and to fight for the Constitution. and and you played a very very careful word game of a lie. You're the one who said it, not me. So, you still haven't asked why, but I'm going to tell you why. Okay? And and the reason is twofold. Number one, as a Christian, growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed. And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things. Oh, the those who bless the government of Israel. Those who bless Israel is what it says. doesn't say the government of it says the nation of Israel. So that's in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that. Where is that? I I can find it to you. I I don't have the the scripture off the tip of my You pull out the phone and use the It's in Genesis. But so you're

50:40 quoting a a Bible phrase. You don't have context for it. You don't know where in the Bible it is. But that's like your theology. I'm confused. What does that even mean, Tucker? I'm a Christian. I want to know what you're talking about. Okay. Where does where does my support for Israel come from? Number one, because biblically we are commanded to support Israel. But number two, hold on. No, not hold on. You're a senator and now you're throwing out theology and I am a Christian. I am allowed to weigh in on this. We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel. We are commanded to support Israel and we're told those who bless Israel will be blessed. But what? Hold on. Define Israel. This is important. Are you kidding? I this this majority Christian country. Define Israel. Could Do you not know what Israel is? That would be the country you've asked like 49 questions about. So that's what Genesis ref that's

51:26 what God is talking about the nation of Israel. Yes. And he's so does that the current borders the current leadership he's talking about the political entity called Israel? He he's talking about the nation of Israel. Yeah. Nations exists and he's discussing a nation. A nation was the people of Israel referring to in Genesis. Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now? Yes. Yes it is. Okay. And by the way it's not run by Benjamin Netanyahu as a dictator. It's it's a democratic country that elected but he's the prime minister. What? But just just like you know America is the country run by Donald Trump. No actually the American people elected Donald Trump. The same principle. This is silly. I'm talking about the political entity of modern Israel. Yes. And that is you believe that's what God was talking about in Genesis. I do. But but that country has existed since when? Uh for thousands of years now. There was a

52:12 time when it didn't exist and then was recreated just over seven years. But I'm I'm saying I think most people understand that line in Genesis to refer to the Jewish people, God's chosen people. That's not what it says. Okay. Israel, but you don't even know where in the Bible it is. So I I don't I don't remember the scriptural citation, but okay. I keep It's like Genesis 16 or something like that. But yes, it's in the earlier part of the book. The point is all you keep interrupting me before I finish my important to know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're So you're saying as a Christian if I believe in Jesus I have to support the modern state of Israel. No, I'm not saying that you I'm explaining for me what my vote motivation is. But you

52:59 Okay. So I'm just trying to understand. You said God tells you to support the modern state of Israel in the Bible in some place in the Bible that you heard about but you don't know where it is. That's your theology. You're going back. Am I a sleazy feline again? I I mean, if you accuse me of anti-semitism again, I will say that, but I don't think you will. Try to be a little less condescending. I'm trying to have a conversing. You're throwing this stuff out and it's my job to figure out what you're talking about, but I don't understand. But you're not letting me Okay, I'm sorry. I want to be polite. That is for me a personal motivation, but I also what I was about to say, I don't believe my personal faith. Not everyone who I represent is a Christian. It's not an argument for me to give that that we should do this because of my faith. And so as as an elected official,

53:45 I don't give that as the reason we should support Israel. That is a personal motivation for me, but but I don't think it is the reason we should. The reason that I am the leading defender of Israel is because Israel is our strongest ally in the Middle East, an incredibly troubled part of the world, and supporting Israel benefits America. And the clearest illustration of that is what is happening right now. Hold. Let me just make this point and then and then I'll just ask what you mean. That's it. Okay. Yeah. Look, Iran, I think the most acute national security threat facing America right now is the threat of a nuclear Iran. I think China is the biggest long-term threat, but acute and near-term is a nuclear Iran. Okay? And I think Israel is doing a massive favor to America right now by

54:34 trying to take out Iran's nuclear capacity. And the reason I view Iran differently, we talked before about Iraq. I opposed the the Iraq war. We talked about Syria. I oppose military intervention in Syria. The reason for that is those did not pose a threat to the United States. I think Iran is markedly different. Number one, the Ayatollah is a religious zealot. Zealot. He he is a lunatic, but but a particularly dangerous kind of lunatic because he's driven by religious fervor. when he says death to America and death to Israel, I believe him and I think Iran is trying to get a nuclear weapon because there there is a very real possibility they would use a nuclear weapon. So you want to ask how does supporting Israel benefit us? Right now this tiny little country the size of the

55:19 state of New Jersey is fighting our enemies for us and and taking out their top military leadership and and trying to take out their nuclear capacity. That makes America much safer. So, um, the president has said repeatedly Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon and he will do whatever it takes to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. He said that like a hundred times. He clearly means it. I think he will use force to affect that if he feels he has to. I think he's been really clear about that. I don't know, but it seems that way. Do do you feel that? Do you think that's correct? Um, whether he would use force to stop a nuclear weapon, I think he he has put that option on the table. He certainly suggested I mean I have literally no idea what's going to happen but just reading his statements um he's made that really clear. So what he has been very clear about and I I spoke with the

56:04 president on Sunday is he has been very clear to Iran that if they attack US service men and women there will be real consequences and and and I think very serious military way this is a sidebar but I just can't resist. The prime minister of Israel said that Iran tried to assassinate Donald Trump twice. Yeah I I read your newsletter this morning and and but do you believe that's true? Again, I think it was sort of a word game. What is true is Iran is trying to assassinate Donald J. Trump and they have hired hitmen. Now, you pointed out

…