0:00 Can you tell me what scientism is? >> The belief that science is all the real knowledge there is. In our society as a whole, particularly in the west today, we have grown so reliant on science that we tend to put aside other ways of getting to know things. Scientism, in my view, is a terrible intellectual error. I mean, to what extent can human history be discovered scientifically? The answer is essentially it can't. It's a one-off thing. History is full of unique events. Most of the arguments of the aggressive atheists of this century are drawing heavily on scientism. So when they say things like there's no evidence to support Christianity, what they are really focusing on is to say
0:46 Christianity isn't proved or the evidence for Christianity is not science. Okay? Science doesn't prove it. The following is a conversation with Ian Hutchinson, a nuclear engineer and plasma physicist at MIT. He has made a number of important contributions in plasma physics, including the magnetic confinement of plasmas, seeking to enable fusion reactions, which happens to be the energy source of the stars to be used for practical energy production. Is there a way that you could try to describe on a podcast? What is God like? Is it a force intellectually? is a set of metaphors that you use to reason about the world or is it like Santa Claus, a guy with a with a beard on the cloud? Let me start by saying none of the above. >> Is it possible for somebody to be an
1:31 atheist and avoid um slipping into scientism? >> I didn't see Christianity as some kind of great evil the way it's sometimes portrayed by the by the radical atheists of this century. I mean, I think that's nonsense. But I so I think there were certain attractive things if you go to a university like Cambridge you know you're surrounded by by by western culture you know from from about you know the the 15th century onwards and that saturated with Christian art and architecture and so forth and so it's hard not to recognize that Christianity is in fact the foundation of western society and western culture western civilization. So, so I I mean maybe I was in that
2:17 sense favorably disposed towards Christianity as a religion, but as a personal faith, it didn't mean anything to me. But I became convinced really of two things. One is that the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is actually rather good. I mean, it's not a proof. It's not kind of some some kind of scientific demonstrate or mathematical demonstration, but it's actually extremely good. It's not scientific evidence by and large. It's historical evidence. >> Historical evidence. Yeah. >> So that was one thing. And the other thing that came to me when I was uh at Cambridge, it became clear that Christianity ultimately is not, you know, some kind of moral theory or philosophy or something like that. It is
3:03 or at least or at least it claims to be a personal relationship with God which is made possible you know by um what Jesus did and on the cross and and his life and and his teaching and and it's a personal call to a relationship with God and that had I never really thought of it in those terms when I was you know when I was younger and that that that thought became attractive to me. I mean I I think most people find the person of Christ and his teachings, you know, compelling in c in a certain sense. >> What do you mean by personal? Do you mean personal for you? Like a relationship like it's a meditative like you specifically you Ian have a connection uh with God. Uh and and then the other side you say personal with the
3:50 actual body the person of Jesus Christ. So all of those things, what do you mean by personal connection and why that was me? >> Well, so as a Christian, >> sorry for the stupid question. >> No, it's okay. No problem. As a Christian, I believe that I have a relationship with God, which is best expressed by saying that it's personal. And that comes about because, you know, Jesus through his acts has reconciled me with God. me a sinner, me someone full of of of of sins of of failings, of ways in which I don't live up to even my own ideals, let let alone the ideals of a holy God. Um have been reconciled to the creator of everything.
4:35 Um and and so Christians, myself included, believe that prayer is in a certain sense a connection with God. And there are times when I have felt, you know, that God spoke to me. I don't mean necessarily orally in words, but showed me things or enlightened me or inspired me in ways that I I attribute to him. So, I see it as a as a two-way, you know, relationship in a certain sense. Of course, it's a very asymmetrical relationship, but nevertheless, Christians think that it's a two-way. It's a two-way street. We're not just talking into the air when we say we are going to pray for someone >> in this two-way communication. Is there
5:22 a way that you could try to describe on a podcast what is God what is God like uh in your view? If you try to describe is it a force? Um is it a a is it uh for you in intellectually is a set of metaphors that you use to reason about the world? Is it is it is it kind of a computer that does some computation? That's the infinitely powerful computer. Uh or is it like Santa Claus, a guy with a with a beard on the cloud? Like uh I don't mean um I don't mean what God actually is. I mean in your limited cognitive capacity as a human, what do you actually uh what do you find helpful for thinking of what God actually looks like? What is God? >> Well, let me start by saying none of the
6:08 above. Okay. I mean clearly God in the Christian God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc. um is is is not any of those things because all of those things you just mentioned are phenomena or or entities in the created world. And the most fundamental thing about monotheism as you know Abraham and Moses and so forth handed it down is that God is not an entity within the the creation within the universe. That God is the creator of it all. And that's what Genesis first two chapters of Genesis is really about. It's not it's not about telling us you know how God created the world. It's about telling us and telling
6:54 the early Hebrews that God created the world. Okay? And that therefore he is not, you know, simply an entity within it. On the other hand, you know, our finite minds have a pretty hard time encompassing that. >> So, so one has to therefore work in terms of metaphors and images and and so forth. And um I think we would know very little about who God is if we if it was simply up if we were simply left to our own devices. You know, if if we were just, you know, here you are, you're in the universe, try to figure out who who made it and uh and so forth. Well, you know, philosophers think they can do a little bit of that maybe uh and theologians think that they can do a little bit more. But Christians think uh
7:41 that God has actually helped us along a lot by revealing himself and and we say that he's revealed himself supremely in the person of Jesus Christ. Um and so you know when Jesus says to his disciples, if you've seen me, you've seen the father. Um then that is in a certain sense a watch word for answering this question for Christians. It it is that supremely if we want to help ourselves understand who God really is, we look to Jesus. We look to what he did. We look to what he said uh uh and so forth and uh we believe that he is one with the father and that's why we
8:26 believe you know in the trinity. I mean it's basically because um that revelation is extremely central to Christian belief and teaching. So in that in that sense through Jesus there was um that's kind of a historical moment that's profound that's really powerful but do you also think that God makes himself seen in less obvious ways in our world today? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean it's it's certainly been the outlook of Jews and Christians throughout uh history that God is seen in the creation that we when we look at the creation we see to some extent the wonder the majesty the might of the
9:15 person or the entity but the person who created it and uh and that's a way in which scientists particularly uh have over over the ages and certainly over most of the last five centuries since the scientific revolution scientists have seen in a certain sense the hand of God in creation. I mean um this leads us perhaps to a different discussion but I mean it's it's remarkable to me how influential um Christianity and religion in generally has been in science. >> Yeah. Most of the scientists through history as if you described I mean God has been a very big part of their life and their work.
10:00 >> Certainly up until the at the beginning of the 20th century that was the case. So maybe this is a good time to can you tell me what scientism is? >> Yeah. I mean the short answer is that by scientism we mean the belief that science is all the real knowledge there is. I mean that's a shorthand. There are lots of different facets of it and which one can explore and and the book in which I explored it mo most thoroughly was actually an earlier book called monopolizing knowledge. And and the the the purpose of that title is to is to draw attention to the fact that in our society as a whole in particularly in the west today, we have grown so reliant on science that we tend to put
10:48 aside other ways of getting to know things. And so um of course at MIT we are focused on science and we do um focus on it very much. But the truth is that there are many ways of getting to know things in our world, know things reliably in our world and a lot of them are not science. So scientism in my view is a terrible intellectual error. It's to it's the belief that somehow the methods of science as we've developed them with ex you know experiments and and in the end they it relies particularly upon reproducibility in the world and on a kind of clarity that comes from measurements and mathematics and and related types of of skills.
11:36 those powerful though they are for finding out about the world are not all the knowledge do not give us all the knowledge we we have and there's many other forms of knowledge and the illustration that I usually use to to try to help people to think about this is to say well look let's think about human history I mean to what extent can human history be discovered scientifically the answer is essentially it can't be and the reason is because human history is not reproducible. You can't do reproducible experiments or observations and and go back and you know try it over again. It's it's a one-off thing. You know the history is full of unique events and and so you you know you you you can't hope to do
12:23 history using the methods of science. >> Yeah. I mean in in some sense history is a story of miracles. I mean they don't have to have to do with God but it's just >> uniquenesses anyway unique events that's >> unique events and uh that science doesn't like that because it's uh unique events by their very definition are not reproducible. Um can I ask sort of a tricky question? I don't even know what atheist or atheism is but is it possible for somebody to be an atheist and avoid um slipping into scientism? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean that I mean there the the these are two separate things. Okay. I'm quite sure there are many people who don't believe in God and yet recognize that there are many
13:09 different ways of we get knowledge. You know some is history some is sociology economics politics um philosophy art history uh language literature etc etc. There are many people who recognize those disciplines as having their own approaches to epistemology and to get how we get knowledge and valuing them very highly. I don't mean to say that everyone um you know who's an atheist automatically you know subscribes to scientistic viewpoint. That's not true. But it's certainly the case that many of the arguments, in fact, most of the arguments of the aggressive atheists of this century, people are sometimes
13:57 called new atheists, although they're actually rather old. Most of their arguments are rather old, um, you know, are drawing heavily on scientism. So when they say things like there's no evidence to support Christianity, okay, what they are really focusing on is to say is saying that Christianity isn't proved or the evidence for Christianity is not science. Okay? Science doesn't prove it. and and you you know if you read their books that's what you find they really mean is science doesn't lead you necessarily to believe in a creator god or into in any particular in um rel religion I accept that that's not a
14:43 problem to me because I don't think that science is all the knowledge there is and I think there are other important ways of getting to know things and one of them is historical for example and I mentioned earlier that I I became persuaded and I and I still am persuaded that the historical evidence for the resurrection is very is very persuasive.
