Unjustified to Compare India’s Solar Boom with China’s: Vinay Rustagi (Premier Energies) | Podcast

0:01 [Music] There was a time back in 20078 when India used to be one of the leaders in solar technology. In fact when these Chinese companies like Jenko and Trina and many others uh in their early days they came to India to hire engineers. Cell capacity today is 25 GW expected to cross between 50 and 60 GW in the next 2 years. And again, you know, if you look at all the announcements, close to 100 GB of announcements, the largest Chinese manufacturers are producing something between 60 to 100 GW of modules. The cost of making a cellar module is almost two times in the US than it is in India. Same is the case in Europe. Same is the case in Japan. And I think the long-term positive here is that India could become the number two country in the world manufacturing. Welcome to a new episode

0:47 of Conversations with Sar Energy. Today we have with us someone who we've admired for a very long time a truly long-term player observer in the solar sector Mr. Vine Rostagi. Welcome Ven. Thank you Pas. It's a pleasure to be here. So before we go on Vine I'm going to introduce you to the people watching. Uh Vine is an engineer from Delhi University, Delhi College of Engineering and he completed his MBA from I am Ahmedabad post which he was a banker for some time and in 2010 he actually started his own firm called Bridge to India. uh bridge to India and pretty was a very important part observer of the solar sector in India helped many people before he sold the company to crystal in 2023 and after that he has kind of from

1:33 outside in become an inside out player by joining premier energies one of India's leading module and cell manufacturers as the chief business officer so Venet uh fantastic to have you here let's dive in straight away tell us how you got into solar let's just start with a soft question first sure Uh so look you know after my MBA I specialized in finance. Uh I worked in a series of banks. Uh my area of expertise was project finance. So where you typically finance these big ticket projects be telecoms, oil and gas, transport etc. Uh as uh things would have it you know I moved to India back from UK. Okay. Uh in 2011 uh and I was given a responsibility for handling the renewable sector which was actually pretty growing rapidly at that time. uh

2:18 so I financed a few renewable projects and that got me really excited about the sector because I think in the Indian energy landscape uh renewables have a huge role to play uh given the dominance of coal uh and the imperative for environmental mitigation. So you know I I uh learned a lot during those 2 three years uh and that is what ignited the passion for me uh and I wanted to make a career in renewable energy. But still I think when you say 2010 you're talking about a world when people were talking in kilowatts and today we're talking gigawatt. Isn't that isn't that right? It is right. Uh so you're right. It used to be a very niche sector. There were a lot of skeptics around at that time. Uh nobody knew how big the sector is going to get. uh but I think uh as far as as long as I saw it uh the writing was on

3:04 the wall uh it was uh untenable and is untenable for India or any other country to rely on coal to such to the extent that we do. Uh we do need to decarbonize. I think uh climate change is the one of the biggest challenges of our times today. Uh and uh you know one thing good about renewables is that the pace of technology change is such uh that the cost is forever coming down. efficiency is improving etc. So I think I felt uh it was a conviction uh and I was ready to kind of act on it uh that renewables will occupy the mainstream in the next few years. So, so it's 2010 the era of kilowatt level talk still and you set up bridge to India. What what were you doing at Bridge to India then? What were the what was the plan actually? So,

3:50 it's very interesting because the if you see the name Bridge to India uh the premise of the company was to actually help international technology and financing expertise to come to India to bring them to India uh introduce the Indian business and hopefully help them grow in India. Right? That was the founding promise. Uh having said that we were actually very very fast moving and dynamic. Uh we did work with many of the international technology companies like Seammens, Bosch at that time etc. uh introducing them to India. But we also tried a hands-on project development. We actually developed a few rooftop solar projects on our own. Uh and then one thing led to another uh from just pure business and strategy consulting. We moved to transaction advisory. So which means helping people with investment transactions, M&As, JVS etc. Uh we also

4:39 slowly as because of our own internal need uh we started collecting data uh about the sector in terms of projects, policies, tenders etc. And uh I can't tell you how fast the sector mushroomed from those years and uh so much so that research be became in its own right an independent vertical uh in the business uh and hence after a period of time that became almost like 50% of our business. So we started monetizing research through uh you know producing a lot of reports. Uh we had a beautiful portal uh called ind navigator which gave 247 uh data on very comprehensive data across the sector and we had uh all the biggest players in the sector the PSUs the private players uh manufacturers project

5:26 developers etc subscribers to this uh portal. So you actually had a ringside view of the sector in that sense and uh you spoke about seammens Bosch of course we of course we hear about them but not in the same way correct so you had a ringside view of the Chinese emergence also tell us about that how did you think the Chinese would dominate the way they did or the way they do today no I mean I think to be honest we've all been taken by surprise uh how the Chinese have completely steamrolled uh the sector uh you would be actually surprised you know uh there was a time back in 20078 when India used to be one of the leaders in solar technology. We saw that uh in fact when these Chinese companies like Jenko and Trina and many others in their early days they came to India to hire engineers. So many of the

6:14 people who worked in Tata Power, Tata BP or Moser buyer in those days they actually went to China to help the Chinese set of their plants. Uh so nobody knew how big this is going to get in China. uh I think uh but uh they did scale up very very fast. Uh the German and the European industry went almost bankrupt around 2009 and 10. Uh and I think uh in the early days everybody was happy because the Chinese were scaling up capacity. Uh they were able to provide equipment which nobody else was. Uh they helped bring down the cost. Uh they helped upgrade the technology. So I think everybody thought oh this is a great opportunity because one of the challenges in those days was the high cost of renewable power. So as long as the cost came down the consumer was

7:00 happy the b the governments were happy. Uh but then of course things took a much bigger turn and you know it produced all kinds of other uh issues on the sides. Sure. So you're talking about cost being very high. Just give us a sense because I believe I've seen PPA being signed at 20 rupees also 21 rupees also. That's right. How do how do those PPAs will they gradually die out or something else can be done there? Well, you know, actually, so we talking about a period of 2009 10, right? Uh in the early days, the PPAs were actually about 12 to 15 years only. So many of those PPAs, one many of those PPAs are near nearly being phased out. Uh second, the volume of those PPS is actually very small. So today if there was any discount which

7:46 was buying let's say 200 megawatt at 15 rupees today they are buying 3,000 or 4,000 megawatt right so on a per so the impact goes down so the impact goes down over a period of time so I think that's manageable great so let's move on to the Indian manufacturing scene now we've seen India always talk about manufacturing but actual action probably nothing like what we saw in the last four years I guess correct absolutely and uh why is that why were we not able to get in early enough like you said we had all the expertise but we missed that bus clearly And now that we're doing it, there are still clearly many many challenges. How is that evolving now? Yeah. So you're right. I think you know after the Chinese stepped into the sector in the early part of 2010s, I think India the government as well as the the IPs and the consumers, we were just too happy to buy from

8:33 China. And I remember even in 2014, there was a petition for anti-dumping duty which the government was initially very keen on. uh there was a full investigation completed by DG TR in those days. Uh but then at the last minute the government backed out because there was a lot of concerns that any imposition of duties would mean maybe less supply of modules uh higher cost etc and higher cost of solar power. Uh the foremost objective of the government in those days was to scale up renewable power in terms of deployment uh and to bring down the cost of power because the discoms were very reluctant. uh open access and rooftop was pretty much unknown at that time unless the government gave something like 60 70% subsidies. So I think uh in a many ways we willingly seeded the ground uh to the

9:19 Chinese uh to the extent that they became like a behemoth and started dictating their terms uh you know across the world. Uh I think the turnaround came the true turnaround came after COVID uh COVID happened and then of course we had a border dispute with China. Uh and then we saw that overnight the cost of panels and all the solar equipment went up by 40 50%. Uh contracts were being cancelled left right and center and I think the government realized that we are we are setting up uh a 500 gawatt target. uh this is a sector which is of strategic importance to us. Uh the entire fundamentals of decarbonization depend in many ways largely on renewables. Uh so can you

10:05 have a situation in which you are deploying hundreds of billions of dollars on the ground all while you are buying equipment from China. I mean that was clearly being seen as untenable and I think that that is when the government's resolve really kind of strengthened. Uh they first brought in the basic customs duty. uh then of course we saw the imposition of ALMM which has kind of progressed from modules to cells and then we have seen a whole series of reforms whether it is PLI incentives or manufacturing zones or lower taxes for manufacturing etc and I think it has really been a gamecher for the Indian manufacturing sector since that time okay so I would like you to explain that a little bit because you know there's there's a viewpoint which is frequently shared that maybe the government has gone to the other extreme

10:50 correct in terms of all these incentives all this protection so to say and the supposedly the higher prices of stuff made in India modules as well as cells just tell us about it why is it such a challenge to match Chinese prices today and where can we expect to be in some time sure so I think uh you know I can understand from the consumer's point of view uh it is very jarring to you know buy Indian modules at double the cost of Chinese modules but I think we have to look at the whole issue in long term we have to look at it in terms of our energy resilience uh independence uh and overall economic growth. Uh so what is happening today is that there are some growing pains but I think we are making fantastic progress. Uh our module capacity is already close to 80 GW and

11:36 the estimations are that it'll cross 150 GW in the next 3 years. Uh cell capacity today is 25 GW expected to cross between 50 and 60 GW in the next 2 years. And again you know if you look at all the announcements close to 100 gawatt of announcements uh you know some of them will not come up but by all accounts we should become self-sufficient in sales uh and have some surplus capacity in the next 3 to four years. So I think we are making a lot of progress. Uh there are a lot of uh components and the upstream equipment which goes into making a modules is also now moving to India. Uh so it is a part of the learning phase for the entire industry. the scale is coming up, technology is coming up, uh skills uh levels have improved very

12:22 dramatically in the sector. Uh now comes the question of you know why is our cost so high in comparison to the Chinese modules. So I think one we have to compare Apple for Apple. Uh you know if you look at an average Indian a top five module manufacturer today uh is probably producing between 3 to 4 GB maybe 5 GB of modules. Uh the largest Chinese manufacturers are producing something between 60 to 100 GW of modules. Right? So their scale is more than 10 times our scale and and that scale has a huge effect uh in terms of cost of production, economies of scale etc. Uh in terms of technology, they have homegrown technology. Uh their suppliers, they operate in a cluster. So their logistical cost uh operations cost

13:10 uh is much lower. Uh and then they get massive subsidies and state support. Uh a lot of which is actually undocumented. Uh so you know if you take all these things into account plus the fact that the for China uh it is not really a market. uh they're not operating with the normal well-accepted market-based principles of commerce. Uh for them, it is a strategic move uh to make sure they dominate the international uh solar manufacturing landscape uh and pretty much basically make everybody else unviable across the world. So what they're doing is they're tactically managing the prices uh in many cases bringing them and keeping them below cost uh whereas of course you know we can't afford to do that in India. So I think uh when you are

13:56 comparing my price with their price you're comparing my cost plus with their cost minus right. So so that is you know these are if you add all these things up uh suddenly it be starts becoming clearer why the Indian module price is higher than the Chinese module price but I think it is a very important part of the the bargain uh that we have to accept because we are creating jobs in India. we are creating supply side resilience and s self-sufficiency for the Indian economy. Uh and I think over the next two to three years uh you know let there be no doubt that as we all scale up our capacities as as the supply chain moves to to India the cost delta between India and China is going to come down very dramatically. Uh the other

14:42 thing which I forgot to mention is that uh currently in order to promote uh domestic manufacturing the government is imposing duties on everything right so there's a duty on glass there's a duty on EVA there's a duty on aluminium frame all of which adds up to my cost uh Chinese are not bearing any of this cost right so uh my procurement cost is higher because of a lower scale uh higher logistics higher taxes and duties so with all of this it is not surpris urpris that a cost ultimately is much higher but the common man I think we need to do a much better job of explaining uh what is the reason for that and how the landscape is going to play out in future uh which is in the next two to three years uh the other very important thing to bear in mind is

15:28 that don't just compare us with China compare us with the rest of the world uh India is the most competitive producer of solar modules today uh in comparison to any the country bar China. Uh so you know we ourselves have examined a manufacturing for in the US like some of the other Indian companies and we find that the cost of making a cellar module is almost two times in the US than it is in India. uh so same is the case in Europe same is the case in Japan or some of the other developed countries right so I think uh we don't just have to look at China and compare ourselves with China all the time you look at the global situation uh India is actually one of the most preferred suppliers of solar equipment in many other countries when they're

16:14 trying to diversify away from China fantastic so you were basically saying that when it comes to cost don't benchmark with China correct because that's unfair benchmark with other markets where we are fair much more competitive correct and I think the long-term positive here is that India could become the number two country in the world of true manufacturing I hope that's a fair assumption correct uh sorry just to bring one more thing into the play I mean India can also be a much more reliable uh partner in international trade uh which follows the best practices as far as the law and order are concerned uh traceability human rights uh market-based principles you know we're not managing prices there's nobody at the top dictating prices to us to for example just to make sure that domestic manufacturing doesn't come up in other countries and that is

16:59 why we find that there are many other countries who are willing to buy modules from India today as against China which is of course supplying them at a much lower great so when you spoke about the cost I get that there's a lot of noise right now about shortages in India despite the high module capacity the 25 gawatt cells apparently there's been a shortages of uh module especially DCR modules because that's been mandated by the government what's happening what do you think will happen there and would we see a resolution soon enough oh absolutely we will see I think what is happening is that if you look at the DCR market there are only two or three components of demand today uh one is the surya the residential rooftop solar scheme second is kusum third is the CPSU scheme uh and if you uh I mean there are

17:47 obviously huge targets behind all these schemes but if you look at the historic targets uh or rather the implementation the progress on the ground has been much much smaller. Uh now what has happened over the last uh 12 months is that the government has suddenly given a huge impetus uh to execution in the Surya Yojna and the Kusum scheme because of which the demand has skyrocketed. Uh now in response to all the measures to support manufacturing supply is coming up. But you know we have to uh understand that as we move further upstream from module assembly into cells and further upstream manufacturing becomes a completely different ballgame in terms of capital intensity uh complexity of operations technology scale etc. uh and I think that is taking

18:34 a little bit of time uh in coming up. Having said that we are nearly there already uh because today uh our cell manufacturing capacity is 25 gawatt. I think by the end of this year we expect that to be about 35 gawatt. Uh now uh any new plant also takes about 6 to 12 months in stabilization and completely ramping up to say 70 to 80% of capacity utilization. So I think we are talking at best a scenario of another 3 to 6 months where there may be a little bit of supply crunches. Uh but I think after that I think we should see enough and more capacity because even though ALMM list 2 that is the sell part is expected to be implemented from June 2026 onwards. uh a lot of the demand from the

19:20 utility scale market is not expected to come at least until end of 2027 or 28 simply because of the timelines based on these projects right so I think in the 6 months or so we will have a scenario where the supply of DCR modules and the domestic sales is actually much greater than demand so I think it is very much a short-term phenomenon so it's interesting that you mentioned that bit about we almost being there but there's still clearly complications is that also linked to the fact that between module assembly let's call it and cell manufacturing it's a completely different ballgame. Oh it absolutely is. See you know what are we doing in a module assembly? you are actually buying all the components whether it is the the cell the EVA sheets uh the glass panel

20:05 etc etc and you are laminating it all together to make one simple one single module right uh cell so that is not manufacturing it is more like an assembly operation you can set up a module assembly line in 6 months much lower capital cost much uh and you can make the same different kinds of modules on the same assembly line in a cell manufacturing Or if you go further upstream into inoten wafer, that is when the real dynamics and the complexities of manufacturing start coming up, you're suddenly dealing with very complex chemical and material processes. Uh and it's a game of very very fine uh perfect you know margins in terms of getting the quality and the efficiency absolutely right. So I think and you are dealing

20:51 with uh many I would say uh difficult chemicals and gases as part of that process. So I think it takes much longer to set up a cell line. Uh it is much more costly of course. Uh but then even once you've set up the line it takes 6 to 12 months to stabilize that line and start producing the right product at the right scale. So it's a different ballgame altogether. But I think as an industry we are getting there. uh and like I said in another 3 to 6 months we should have enough supply to meet our demand would it we saw in modules how people said anything below a gawatt would not be sustainable in the long term today I think we're already hearing that even a gawatt is not enough is that going to apply to cell also because we are again seeing a host of announcements from people who saying we will set up a 500 megawatt cell line or a 1 gawatt

21:38 cell line is that going to be sustainable uh I think increasingly the way the sector is evolving uh given the capital complexity uh and technology and operations related issues. I think the minimum scale in the sector is going to be 5 GW plus uh and that is why we as a company our aspiration is grow to grow to 10 GW from ingots to wafers cells and modules by the end of 2028 because more scale brings the ability to have more efficiencies in procurement. uh you have the financial capacity to upgrade your technology uh and to be able to offer large scale products to your clients within a short period of time. So today any large IP for example uh if they're

22:24 implementing a 300 megawatt project for which they need 450 megawatt of modules they want 450 megawatt of supply in a period of about 2 to 3 months. Now somebody who's a who has a capacity of,000 megawatt uh he's producing maybe 700 megawatt of modules in a year they can't supply uh even a small portion of the IP's cap requirement. So I think from a market perspective as well as the fundamentals of the business perspective the minimum scale is going to be 5 GW plus. Okay. So it's interesting you mentioned that because I've always wondered we've been looking at numbers recently and when I talk about actual output from companies right versus their name plate capacities or the capacities that they've been claiming it seems much lower I mean if I was to put a benchmark 60 to 70% even maybe around that is that

23:11 the general rule or do you actually have companies who say 12 gawatt and they produce 12 gawatt no so you know one is the theoretical name plate capacity uh then there is something called what we say as the effective capacity because Effective capacity takes into account uh how many days in a year can you actually operate? What is the maintenance period shutdown? What is the number of shifts you're operating? Uh and then very often you have to make changes in your you have to shut down the plant because let's say you have to switch from one module configuration to the second module configuration. Then you have to shut down the plant, retool it and then you have to start production again. So if you take these things into account, I would say both modules as well as cells, the best efficiency that you can achieve or utilization you can achieve is somewhere between 80 to 85%. Uh you can

23:59 go higher selectively particularly if you have a very good team on the ground. So for example in the last quarter uh our cell and module utilization was definitely more than 85% uh in both the cases but by and large I would say so effective capacity is about 85% and then it be it depends it becomes a case of how much orders do you have uh you know how prepared is your technical and operational team to be able to utilize it fully. So very often you will find that not just in China but all over the world these lines are operating at anything between 50 to 70% capacity utilization rates. So somebody told me once as a rough thumb rule he said look you need to run a solar line for at 80% capacity for at least 3 years for us to break even or make money on it. Correct?

24:45 You would agree with that broadly? Yes, I would. Uh only for the simple reason that the technology life cycle is getting very very short. uh what is happening is that you know we are there's a huge amount of R&D going on particularly in China and every 3 to four years there's a step change in technology uh to keep up we have to keep investing and upgrading in our plants so if you're doing that uh how do you recoup your investment right it's a highly capital intensive sector and in 3 to four years technology becomes outdated so you spoke about the China factor as a massive influencer despite whatever we might want uh you know from a country which like you said literally learned from the others and then scaled up at a unimaginable scale probably and

25:30 in some ways supported the growth of solar I guess thanks to Chinese lower prices today uh how does a country like India manage that because as I understand it when we talk about further backward integration into ingots and wafers we are still going to go back to China for machines the lead on innovation also today which is huge for them is there a way out are there options where are we placed right now yeah I think that's a very good question person I think uh we have no option but to uh look for other options and to develop our own capabilities right so I think but it is going to take a long time uh and it is going to take a very concerted well thoughtout plan uh to do so uh one we have to invest in domestic technology development there is no two ways about this we have to develop our R&D capabilities we have to invest in

26:17 centers of excellence whether it is in IITs or other specialist centers like NY or others uh we have to enter into strategic tie-ups with international uh bodies which do excellent R&D work particularly in places like Germany, Italy, Australia, uh US uh etc. uh and we have to slowly look at starting to manufacture the upstream or the manufacturing equipment ourselves. Uh we have started entering into discussions with the government uh how to instigate and uh propagate the manufacturing capability in India. uh as a company we are very very conscious of the of the heavy dependence on China uh and we are taking steps uh to reduce our uh

27:02 dependence on them because there's all kinds of risk in terms of you don't know when the flow of technology might be stopped uh or the skills or relevant people might there might be some kind of disruption so we are trying to diversify our supply chains we are buying equipment from other countries even when it is 20 to 30% or 40% more expensive at times. Uh and we are investing a huge amount in building our own skill sets. We are whether it is keeping spare parts, training our engineers etc etc. So I think uh it is something that as a country we ought to do particularly if we want to become a genuine China alternative uh for supplying to other countries. Okay. Tell me u I've always seen solar as three parts which is developers, there are the EPCs and of

27:48 course manufacturing. From your perspective, if you had to tell somebody which is the most exciting bit of solar, which would it be? And where could Indian companies actually go global in these three areas? Sure. Well, I think the the clear-cut answer is it is manufacturing. Manufacturing is where there is the biggest value ad. If you look at EPC, EPC is obviously doing the all the engineering procurement. But all said and done, building and construction of solar and even wind projects is a relatively simple commoditized process. uh it will probably become a little bit more complex after storage comes in and we're looking at you know all kinds of RTC and FDR projects but uh still it is a relatively a much simple project and then the project development is actually more of a financing uh le business where

28:36 you are buying you are looking for ideally lumpsum solutions uh both in terms of EPC as well as M and you're finding the best uh most efficient capital uh for deployment in the business. I think it is manufacturing which is the most dynamic part of the business. We talked about uh technology life cycles, the complexity uh the the uncertainty produced by trade treaties and so many other things, right? So that is where the highest value addition is in the business, the biggest amount of job creation uh and overall wealth creation in the economy. And if you look at you know our EPC companies have tried and gone to other countries in many cases burnt hands and come back. Uh project development business by and large is a very very localized business uh because you need

29:23 to understand uh the whole procurement regime land acquisition transmission etc. And we find that most developers tend to stick to other their home countries or they're very very choosy and selective and they go to other countries. You know in India there are many international developers but if you look at the scale in total the international utilities probably don't have a scale of more than 10% of the total market. It is the local developers and the private equity backed platforms which dominate the market. uh and I think it is very difficult for them to go to other countries and to grow the business uh for various reasons right so whereas if you see the manufacturing uh you know many of the Indian companies are trying to basically go abroad they are looking for opportunities including premier ourselves we see a very genuine

30:09 opportunity which will open up hopefully much more in future of exporting India made modules to US Europe and many other countries around the world so I think that is where the biggest opportunity lies so you spoke spoke about RTC and FDR. Of course, we noticed that the share of these in the tenders is going up a lot. Uh we've also seen by the way Chinese firms who seem to have storage arms as well. Trina or Jenko for that matter. Is that a trend we should expect in India. Is that pressure already there on you to start some sort of a storage exploratory manufacturing also? Well, you know, I won't put it like a pressure. I think it is a huge opportunity. The market clearly needs uh more firm and hybrid power solutions. So I think uh not just storage but there are many other technologies which come into picture. Customer need uh is moving

30:54 along that direction. There's a willingness to pay higher prices uh because just plain vanilla solar and wind is not going to meet the need of the customer anymore. So I think we ourselves are looking at a few more related uh opportunities in that area and hopefully we should be in a position to announce them soon. But in many ways storage we are exactly where solar was a few years back right in terms of dependency on so you're right. I think uh in many ways if you see uh it is playing out in you know the the story is playing out in a similar respect as it is in solar uh the difference I see here is that having learned the lessons of solar uh I think the Indian government uh is attuned is alive uh to you know making sure that you know we don't go the same way in storage so for example there's already a PLI scheme out for

31:40 storage there's a manufacturing initiative out in storage uh and I think we will see more of that uh particularly the costs of storage have come down very very drastically. Uh there are many Indian companies uh from Reliance onwards who have announced big foray into storage. Uh and we ourselves are also looking at something along similar lines. So Venit one last question now that you've come back to corporate life you're the business officer at Premier Energies. What's the thing keeping you awake at night? Is it some big target? What's the next big milestone to expect? See I think it is a very exciting time to be a manufacturer and manufacturer in India today. uh you know as a just to give you an idea our business is going to almost triple in size over the next one year. Uh we have various expansion projects under implementation. So the first priority for us is to make sure

32:27 that these expansion projects are implemented on time uh and uh on cost uh and then we have various strategic foray be it in storage or other related areas uh that we're examining right now. So evaluating them, making sure we get the business model right, we choose the right partners uh etc. is something you know which is a one big opportunity. The next one big opportunity is backward integration. So today we are in cells and modules. We have already announced an entry into wafers and over a period of time we want to scale our important wafer capacity to bring it at power with cells and modules. So we see a lot of opportunities for expansion horizontally, vertically, sideways etc. And uh I think it's a great time to be a manufacturer uh in the space as we speak. Super. With that, thanks a lot.

33:14 Thanks for your time. Thank you, Pasa. Thanks for having me. [Music]